REDGARD FAILED FLOOD TEST!!! --- Why Did it CRACK and BUBBLE UP???
Vložit
- čas přidán 19. 04. 2022
- Redgard waterproofing membrane is one of the most popular products used when tiling a shower. Because of its availability at Home Depot and ease of use, Redgard is the waterproof membrane of choice for many DIY'ers and Contractors. Because Redgard is a roll-on or paint brush applied product it is easier to use than Schluter Kerdi or Oatey pan liners.
I did this test because I see so many people use it at the wrong rate of application and I wanted to see how it performs when applied to the rate as specified in the technical data sheet (TDS). In order to meet IAMPO standards for a shower pan, Redgard must be applied in two coats at a rate of 80 square feet per gallon for each coat. One gallon of Redgard will cover 40 square feet at this rate.
My test module had an area of 2.88 square feet, so I divided 2.88/80 to get the ratio of the test module to the 80 square feet rate as specified. The ratio was .036 or 3.6%. To calculate the amount of Redgard to be applied, I multiplied the ratio (.036) to the gallon in fluid Ounces (128). The amount equaled approximately 4.6 fluid ounces per coat.
The first coat was applied over the dry pack mortar bed in the test module that had cured for 24 hrs. The mortar bed looked dry (light gray in color) and had hardened properly. The surface of the mortar bed was clean, smooth, and free of contaminants. The first coat dried for 24 hrs before applying the the second coat. It was noted that the first coat dried nicely and evenly without any visible cracking.
The second coat was applied in the same manner as the first and allowed to dry for 48 hours. Upon inspection the second coat had cracked significantly in the changes of plane of the test module, notably where the bottom and sides of the test module intersected.
A third coat was applied in the corners to cover the cracks that had formed and allowed to dry for 24 hours after which the water was poured into the test module and allowed to soak under intermittent observation and time lapse video.
Time lapse video showed almost immediate change in color from the dark red (dry) color to the light pink (wet) color of the Redgard. Also, a leak formed in the lower right corner of the module after approximately 60 minutes.
After eight hours, the water was removed from the module and the membrane was inspected. Upon inspection, a small crack was observed in the lower right corner that had leaked. It was noted that this crack had been covered by the third coat previously applied over the cracking that happened after the second coat had dried. Also observed were small bubbles that were filled with water in the surface of the Redgard that covered the mortar bed. The surface of the Redgard that covered the mortar bed was also soft and broke apart easily.
My conclusion is that the Redgard was applied over the mortar bed too soon (24 hours). Even though it is common practice for installers to apply Redgard the next day after the dry pack is installed, this time frame may need to be extended.
To support our channel, please go to www.tilecoach.com/product-pag... to purchase a T-Shirt or other merchandise.
If you would like to see the Schluter Kerdi vs. Laticrete Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane video, here is the link: • Schluter KERDI/ALL-SET...
If you need help on you project, go to www.tilecoach.com/book-online to book a time slot with me. - Věda a technologie
I like this test. Isaac knows already that the mortar should cure for a few days before applying the redguard, but you can't expect the average diyer to know that, because it's not mentioned in the product specs. He also probably knew the layers were a bit too thick, but once again, he followed the product instructions, which is exactly what a diyer should normally do. Illustrates the pitfalls of the product. Thanks again, Isaac!
That TDS says concrete must be cured for 28 days.
@@tinman1955 Even for Dry pack? It contains cement but isn't concrete in any traditional sense. I can't imagine a customer being ok with disappearing for a month between putting in the bed and doing the next steps.
@@Sn0wZer0 "disappearing for a month between putting in the bed and doing the next" ... use Redgard on the walls with full day curing. And use a PVC pan liner over day old bed. Using Redgard on the shower pan itself makes little sense, takes way too long to do carefully and properly, and still would leave me worrying. A $50 pvc liner makes so much more sense for the pan. Quick and easy and total confidence.
The mortar bed need to cure and add water every other day to prevent the blister
@fartpooboxohyeah8611oes like this
1. Mortar preslope
2. Pan liner
3. Mortar
4. Thinset tile
Redgard isn't fully cured until it stays red when wet. It turns red pretty quickly when dry, but you're supposed to sprinkle water on it to test for cure. If the drops turn pink, it's not cured. Depending on humidity, it can take 2 or 3 days to fully cure. You may have just not let it cure long enough. If it's not cured when you do the flood test, it's the same as if you mixed water into the bucket, which is why it turned to mush when you scraped it off. Also, Redgard cracks if it's applied too thickly. I usually apply multiple thinner coats until any cracks stay filled.
I also always let the mortar bed cure till a piece of plastic taped over the surface stays dry, and I use redgard fabric tape (or a cheap knockoff from Amazon) in the corners. Redgard is a great and affordable product when done right, but it takes a lot longer than any of the fabric membrane systems. If you have plenty of stuff to do while you wait, it's a decent option. I'd still do schluter or laticrete if I have the budget.
@@private8559 well it's equivalent to a 30mil pan liner so I'm going to disagree with you there.
My guess is that because your mortar bed was in a plexiglass box, even though it cured, moisture was still present; trapped in the box and sealed by the redgard, hence the blisters.
This is exactly what happened.
No kidding
So is no point in using the red guard, If you have to wait 2-3 days after your pan installation (in the case of a mortar pan).
Yes damp cement
Clever!
Great video! If your're using Redguard I always use mesh tape in the corners. Preferably set in thinset. Also I skim coat my shower sub pan with thinnest after pan has dried. You can also meshtape and Redguard. I think that your coats were just too thick. I apply with a 3/8 roller and a brush in the corners. Run a fan in between coats. Let dry 1-3 days before a water test. Also mesh over your drain to build up your pan liner.
Thank you, Chad
Been using nothing but Custom Building Products for past 12 years. I always do a primers coat prior to applying my main 2 coats.
When you use a brush, do opposite brush stroke directions for each. This interlocks each coat together. For inside corners and change of planes. I thin-set 6in fabric mesh tape prior to RG.
It’s a great idea to make sure the mortar bed and thin-set are dry prior to RG application. Also vacuum up and dust or loose sand particles as well. Best to skin over all screw holes for a even flat surface. Best to do even lite coats, than to cake it on. RG does shrink when drying. So very important to keep even coats everywhere. Check for pin holes prior to tiling is a good idea. Perma Base is my cement board of choice in showers walls.
I also use RG uncoupling mat in place of Ditra. I like the fact it has fibers on both sides of the mat. So any movement is isolated by fabric shearing. Rather than cracking tiles or grout. So you get your mechanical bond as well. The mat is 100% waterproof as well. Great for doing 0 entry shower to main floor transitions. Love the videos you do. Thx
what primer do you use ?
@@danielsimonleyva810 I believe he's refering to using redgard as a primer. 4 parts water to 1 part redgard.
I've watched several of your videos and want to say I appreciate your professionalism and ethics. What you have taught me is as much as I love tile showers, I would never have one installed in my home simply because of the poor quality of "quality" products.
Glass box is an excellent idea, but try using glass box, mud the bottom as you did but put pieces of Durock/cement board on the side walls as if it were an actual shower….. if waterproofing does fail you should still be able to see the moisture through the glass on the Durock…. Just an idea
I agree with Mike G but but simply running cement board into the mortar bed and up the sides and then taping the joint would prove its not failing because of the dissimilar surfaces.
Few if any professionals use Durock or cement board walls. That’s diy skill trade 🤣. Regardless, how is mud walls or cement board accounting for the Redguard breaking down in under 8 hours of standing water? As Isaac shows, the Redguard is no longer an elastomer membrane when submerged in water for under 8 hours. This is why no professional licensed tile contractor I know uses Redguard.
The scary part is that it’s distributed in big box stores where the least skilled tilers such as diy homeowners and flippers are buying materials. These are the people who’s lack of skill needs the most idiot-proof, fail safe waterproofing. Instead these folks are being sold a product that even with the most diligent workmanship is not waterproof.
Put a piece of Durock on one side of the glass box, and a piece of other cement board material on the opposite side, leaving 2 sides glass. Then you would be able to see if any water is seeping between the Durock/cement board and the base before it meets the glass.
@@MichaelM-to4sg what do professionals use on walls if no durock?
@@Gixxr11 following....
Great videos. I'm close, up in Southern Oregon. I just watched your mud set video. I learned in So Cal, so I have had the pleasure of setting travertine mud set. Really sad that it's becoming a lost art. I'm teaching my son on a job real soon. Keep up the good work. 👍
I just did a test. I applied Mapei's Aqua Defense (from Lowe's) to a new piece of Permabase cement board. I used the new version of Aqua Defense that has the light green color. I used a brush. I did not measure the thickness of the coating. I let it dry in my basement overnight. I have to admit, that my basement is cooler than the rest of the house. I did have a fan blowing on it the whole time to help it dry. The next day, about midday, I took it outside and let it cure some more in the open air. Then I put a little bit of water on it. I removed the water with a paper towel, and the light green color had gotten even lighter, as though the water had gotten into it. I walked away, when I came back, I could not tell where the water had been. The coating had dried out again. I don't know what to make of this, but apparently Red Guard and Aqua Defense have a similar color change when exposed to water and the color change (in the case of Aqua Defense) is reversible. Maybe they both need longer cure times, but who wants to wait forever?
I love your videos. You are honest. If you make a mistake, you don't hide it. We all benefit from your experiences. I will continue to watch and I'm going to subscribe.
I recently did a shower with cement board (I forget the product's name). After I installed that, I used Maepi "AquaDefense" to waterproof it. BUT, i applied a fibrous membrane to stick the fibrous membrane to the cement board. Afterwards, I applied an additional two coats of the waterproofing. The result wasn't the flattest surfaces, especially in the corners and the threshold, but I'm hoping what I did will result in a shower that will last without leaking. Also I used a flexible shower pan instead of just the dry pack and waterproofing.
Isaac I've set Tile & Stone here in Las Vegas for 37 years. I've been on massive projects where there is 5,000 to 6000 rooms per building with swimming pools steam rooms Etc. Never once have I ever seen redgard used in any of those applications or on any detail sheets from the architectural or Engineers on these projects. We've always used laticrete 9235 I never see anybody using that stuff anywhere on any residential or commercial jobs in the last 10 years. It's so easy for contractors to show up on a job and roll that red crap all over place, then walk away and then two years down the line they have serious problems. My father always taught me to do everything to the best of your ability and stand behind everything you do. I see that in you and who need to be commended for your efforts to show and teach people. We need more people in the field like you today because there's a massive movement in the other direction and construction nowadays. No one gives a damn anymore get in get it done get your money move on. I think you should be a US senator instead of a tile contractor haha anyways dude Rock on
Perfect- a senator who is honest and responsive. You don't expect that from a shower builder. Good call. 👍
Bravo sir. Most people don't realize that there's a difference between ounces and fluid ounces. One measures weight and one measures volume
You are an amazing person and educator of all that you do !!! Thank you for spending your personal time to do this !!! Where can I buy a shirt or some merch to give back to all the time you have spent on great info
You ain't gonna buy nothing cheapo!
I have been using aqua defense for over 10 years. I noticed those blisters, turns out it was because I did not let the mortar bed cure for three days, Hydro band states you need to cure for three days so all moisture is out. Plus I use fiberglass membrane in the whole base and corners to insure no leaks. Also we pay extra attention to the drain connection.
Mapei rep told me to allow the mortar bed to dry 1 day for every inch thick the mud bed is. I will accelerate that by putting a fan or heater to blow on there. I too use Aqua Defense exclusively, plus like you I lay EIFS fiberglass membrane the following over the whole mud bed and, flash it up the wall and hold in place with thin-set with a combined water & Anti-hydro solution in the thinset for additional waterproof insurance. A lot of installers know nothing of anti-hydro, to me its liquid insurance. The day before I mud, I even flash the mesh up the wall about 4 inches and onto the floor a couple inches as insurance for perimeter crack protection under the pan, and then paint the aqua defense over the detri-mat and up the wall over mesh. Float bed, let cure a bit, add more mesh over whole pan, let it cure out and then aquadefense as needed. Do you do the drain flange assembly correct too with the membrane. Remove mud at an angle, expose flange, remove drain and collar. Paint aqua defense over angled cut away and bond the AD to the lower flange. Let dry, reinstall collar, drain, add pebbles to prevent mud from plugging weep holes, then add more drypack to bring up to correct height. Let it dry but put no aqua defense over this dry pack. It acts as a porous drain area for water to get down and out of the weep holes. A lot of people wont go this far, but I do very high end homes and dont want my reputation sullied over short cuts.
Redgaurd is not a good product to to use for shower pans even when you use reinforcing fabric at the perimeters and the corners, especially when you are installing tile showers above I story high II waterproofed hundreds of showers in a hospital several story's high , was super careful and thorough and pans failed almost half of the time when water tested! The builders insisted on all American Made products to be used, which I get and applaud,bottom line is RedGaurd sucks as waterproofing membrane and many tile installers I know would agree!Thanks for showing your mockup and results.
So, the blisters are from the moisture in mortar bed? Do you ever see the blisters on wall?
@@twinenk15 from water test
Appears that there was a reaction between the mud and redgard. The covered glass coating seemed intact while the mud surface coating disintegrated. Maybe a bonding sealer over the mud before applying the redgard?
The blisters on the mud are do to moisture still in the mud as I have had that problem before. I've even had issues with hydroban doing the same thing. Realistically it takes at least 3 days for a dry pack to completely dry out enough for a liquid membrane. I don't have time for that personally and I'm sure no other professional tile installers do either so that's why I stick to the sheet membrane and foam boards. Quick one day prep and water test the next morning.
Word
Agreed. The plexi wouldve slowed drying even more.
Should've been in the product instructions....
@@justpassingthrough7989 it is to point as it does say dry substrate but deck mud is difficult to put a specific time on as it is not a modified product and is at the mercy of the temperature and humidity in the air to dry out. I learned the three day rule from my laticrete rep but that was also only for their bag mud that he would say clearly.
Doesn't a real life scenario the moisture would go down through the subfloor not up. To do this test really it should be a wooded box just like a shower stall. Not a plastic box that doesn't let the moisture from the mud to dry.
Great video. I think you did a great job in the entire process, extremely professional in my opinion! I think the concrete bed is the problem. Perhaps if the bed was treated w/ some kind of sealer first
In my humble opinion, perhaps it has something to do with the
mortar-product connection/reactions.
A good control test would be to paint the boxes with each product without the grout bed. Then move to the the same controls with the mortar bed?
I know have lots of time on your hands to product test everything 😂
I use a 3/4 inch nap roller. A brush for the corners. 2 coats. Havent had a problem in many years. Good info buddy. Thanks for doing these tests for us.
no problems *that you know of*
Excellent description added to the video. I wish more people would fill in a detailed description like you. I like to do the math as follows: for both coats (2gal / 80sqft) * (128oz / gal) = (2*128/80) (oz/sqft) = 3.2 oz/sqft. This means you need a total of 9.2 oz which is 4.6 oz per coat.
I love all the testing that you do.
Thank you so much for your demonstration. Gives me a lot to think about!!!
Awesome man! Fantastic tests… this is exactly what we the consumers want to see! You’re a god sent Isaac
Great video I O thanks for doing this kind of testing !!
Thanks. Your video helped me on an upcoming DIY installation.
Motor beds require 72hrs of cure time, plus red guard primer. Also if you want to do redguard you need to use a milage Guage. The ideal milage is 15mils per coat and not to exceed 30mils per coat. And requires minimum of 30mils to be water proofed, and 60 mils for a steam shower. Also after your primer coat you need to lightly sand to remove any exposed sand left and wipe down with a damp sponge. And lastly you most use the proper gaging fabric in the corner, not mesh drywall tape.
Thank you for the information, may I ask where you got it? You would think they would put it in their technical data sheet (TDS) or the instructions on the bucket. I watched their video too and it didn’t have the information you provided either. But what you said makes a lot of sense.
@@TileCoach if you contact redguard there is a separate installation instructions that you can get they used to put all that info on the 3.5 gal bucket.
To make redguard primer, you mix 4 parts water to one part redguard, got that from the redguard help line.
@@TileCoach This is from Redgard TDS-104. Prime all surfaces to receive RedGard® with properly applied manufacturer's sealer or with a primer coat of RedGard®, consisting of 1 part RedGard®, diluted with 4 parts clean, cool water. In a clean pail, mix at low speed to obtain a lump-free solution. For substrates exhibiting high absorption rates - apply the diluted mixture of water and RedGard® (4-1) using a clean, fine head broom to scrub in the primer solution. Keep the surface of the substrate wet for at least 15 minutes during application to ensure adequate and even distribution of primer coat. Apply the diluted RedGard® primer coat to the floor at a rate of 300 ft/gallon (7.5 M/L). Allow 1st coat/application time to dry before floor patch or other flooring material applications begin. For tile installations bonding directly to the substrate; strongly recommended to apply at least one full coat of "undiluted" RedGard® to the "dry" primed area and allow to dry completely before tile installation work is to begin.
I wonder, is there any chance that the membrane is getting contaminated by the bed? is the redguard that was on the side lower down in the water also really compromised? Or is it just the stuff on the bottom that was weak? Also, I suspect the corner cracking is caused by a large build up of product shrinking as it dries, which is why they don't want it to go on too thick or too thin, that buildup in the corners will be really hard to avoid.
Great Job coach. You took the game to a whole different level with this one bro. Informative, intelligent, and fairly tested on this topics video. You took me to blue collar college. You are staying two steps ahead of the game. As far as the all the corrections and comments, they might be attacks, corrections, or informative, which can make a person feel bad, but hardly anyone out there making videos is doing any testing at all. This video and all the information that was provided just made you and us more informed and knowledgeable. I am expecting bigger and better things from you in the future now you showed what you are capable of doing on this video and I am looking forward to it.
Love watching your videos man ... Is Redgard made to stick to plexi glass though ??
I agree that not enough drying time was used for the dry pack and Redgard. My experinece is if you wait at least 3 days for mud and 24 hours between coats of Redgard you can see a big difference.
I’d like to see this redone with fiber mesh tape in the seams n use a mil gauge for thickness n get a 6 mil rating n then test im curious tile coach!
10 yrs and never had issues with red guard! Luv it!
Awesome content brother , Custom must love you right now 😜🤣. Thank you, much love ✌🏽♥️
The cracking in the corners could be due differences between the mortar and plexiglass. Good experiment and findings, but I wonder if it'd be less likely to crack in the corners if the redguard was able to cure on similar materials.
You are absolutely right. Non porous plastic is entirely different than mortar/CBU. Where was the corner mesh?
Is it possible that the mortar wasn't dry enough to allow the Regard to cure? Is it possible that the glass box, being nonporous, is trapping moisture in the mortar?
For what it's worth I Redgarded a cardboard box and filled it with water. Been holding water for a year.
Thank you for the video. Question; was the mud base completely dry before you applied the Redguard ?
I don't use it on the shower pan, but I do on the walls and bathroom floors.
I've tested it before on Denshield making a box out of Denshield and then applying it in a thin layer like paint. I let the water sit and came back days later. No leaks. I think it's a good product, but maybe it doesn't work well with a mud job or because the plexi doesn't allow for proper curing.
Redgards manufacturing info. Regarding to using on plexiglass ? Maybe the issue of the cracked corner. But the base coat on the dry pack should be no issues. But definitely an issue in your test. Thank you for all the hard work and info. you supply to us little guys out here. Cheers!
I love your channel. I watch a lot of your tests. I was wondering, if the glass boxes you use are air tight, does the Redgard have a way to dry and cure100%? Does it need to breathe through the substrate to dry and cure? IDK, just a thought. I'll keep watching, thank you!
im using this for a shower currently but i did use an oatly shower pan my intension is to prevent my bench and niche from failing the bench is also incorpated by oatly liner we see how the test of time lasts but it seems like it worked well it seems it just has problems makeing a good liner when bonding to the cement maybe doing more than the recomended coats would help it bond better? do you have a video of a mock up like this using the hydroban you spoke of?
Was this for a water in water out system? I always read msds for all products also. But I feel like it was put on to thick. And I think customs say to do a primer coat on pourus material, maybe that could of help? Either way thanks for the vids
Since the box was non-porous unlike mortar bed, the moisture could only go in one direction- up. But since the uppermost portion of the paint dried first, it trapped all the moisture within the top layer of paint causing bubbles. I’d like to see if the same results occur on a dry mix bed.
I have never considered using redguard instead of a vinyl liner for a shower pan install. I've used it on a few surrounds now and haven't had any issues but I put a couple thick coats on, and usually let them dry/cure over a weekend. No issues yet.
Yes I'm with you 2 fold. Thin layers, and it's not a pan replacement
Pan liner. Mud bed. Thin coat of thinset on top of mud bed. Then 3 light coats of red guard over entire floor. Same with curb. Haven't had any issues. You still need a pan liner. It would be stupid not to use one.
Great video.
Awesome work!
I would think if the plexiglass was roughen up a bit and then brushed in a 4-6" mesh band and much thinner coats it would pass the 24hr flood test. Them directions are trash and not saying red guard is the best but I think if a couple extra minor steps were taken it would have positive results. I'm actually a little surprised you had such good results with them smooth boxes. I understand it's nice to see what's happening but with such a smooth surface it's hard to think anything bites so well. The other thing that could possibly be potential problem is the thickness of the plexiglass. Even tho reg guard is supposed to be crack prevention maybe there is some expansion/contraction going on the same time as the red guard is trying to set up and with it being applied so thick the timing is off? Or like some were suggesting it not having any substrate on the wall portion to pull out the moisture. So I would guess the best real world test with still being able to see anything would maybe be using the same box..same drypack and then some strips of drywall or cement board PL 'ed 1/2" above the drypack 2 the walls of the box and then with use of 4-6" mesh band and much thinner coats of red guard. That would definitely remove the possible problems I think that cussed the fail. Plus it's exactly how it would be done in a real shower and would still allow you too see the failure.
Hubby said it's the smooth surface of the plexiglass and transitioning to morter. Try sanding the surface, or place sheetrock/hardi backer board around the smooth glass area. Then the transition between the two planes of substrates will be similar.
Such a great learning tool! Better to learn before it is a major issue.
This is why as a DIYer who remodeled 2 bathrooms, both times I just bought a tileable shower tray. It's $600, but it buys me a peace of mind.
First, thanks for all the informative and entertaining videos you produce. Lots of info for pros and DIYers.
This video is a very interesting experiment and a great example of what can go wrong when some of the finer installation details are not adhered to. In the Redgard instructions Section 5, General Surface Prep, it states that porous surfaces must be properly cured and dry according to the manufacturer's instructions and then primed with a 1:4 product dilution. This thin coat will penetrate the pores of the substrate more effectively, thus sealing the surface and ensuring bonding of subsequent coats.
As far as curing time of the dry pack mortar bed, Quikrete instructions for Deck Mud and Sand Topping Mix both state curing time is 5 to 7 days depending on ambient temperature.
For many DIYers the curing time and extra priming step are typically not a big deal, but I imagine that these times and extra steps are not favorable to pros who need to get in and complete the job quickly in order to remain competitive and profitable - seems that this is not a good way to go for pros. As far as liquid waterproof membranes go, more expensive products like Laticrete Hydro Ban are more reliable with less steps and less concern for precise wet and dry film thickness. These more expensive products appear to be targeted to professional installers where products which reduce installation labor time are more favorable than less expensive material which require more effort.
Anyway, thanks again for all the videos and keep them coming!
WOW! Very helpful! I will let mine dry 7 days, and dilute 1:4 for an extra primer step. Thank you for your input!
For the dilution, is that 1 part Redgard to 4 parts water?
@@DavidKlausa Yes, that is correct.
If this gets done in a direct drain shower does the flood test still matter? How long does water sit on top of the weatherproofing, I assume it finds its way to the drain much faster than a water in, water out system
EXCELLENT VIDEO!
Looks like the (underlayment) mortar wasn't fully cured/dried out. (allowing the Redgard not to fully cure either)
*the mortars moisture and air pockets were squeezed out due to the weight of the water on top the redgard.
Best options in this Test. 1st. put your mortar w/ your needed slope, over the raw plywood. allow 24/48hr to cure. Then install your gray liner & test for leaks. then do your 1-1.5" of mortar thickness only. allow to dry 1-2days. use moisture strips/meter before 2 coats of Redgard, allow that to cure 24-48hrs. Then ready to install your Tile.
Thanks for this. Really appreciate the knowledge
Thank you for these tests! Schluters’ All Set is not available in my area…would another modified thin set work with the schluter membranes? We have the Mapai and 1 source for the Laticrete products-but ive pre purchased the Schluter membrane kit and would like to use if possible…???
Yes, as long as it’s a modified thin set.
Laticrete makes a great thin set
I'm wondering if the drypak didn't dehydrate the red guard before it had the time to dry "naturally".
Nice test! I always use 1/2 nap roller and you should have the red guard fiber mesh! Holes in the plexi would have helped. I also coat the mortar bed with some thin set!
Hello anybody has an answer for this...does they Kerdi drain has to be flush to the tray hole edge..I'm dry fitting everything but that abs drains sits a little lower than they tray..is that normal
You saved my project remodel!!! God speed bro
Love your video, I can learn more than other 👍👍
I’m really happy with my decision to not use Redgard and to use the sheet membrane!
Great test and video!
Redguard is a great product the prep work has to be done correctly for anything to work. If there's not a pitch and the water is not escaping then you going to have a problem.
Either the mortar interfered with the curing process or redgard absorbs water over long periods. Paint the inside of a clear plastic cup, cure, and fill it with water, then wait to see if it turns lite pink.
😮t
Do I need to prep the concrete floor with red guard or similar just for the standard concrete base floor?
I have seen several of your videos, thank you, and I'm mostly seeing what doesn't work or what fails, which pan method are you not repairing? So in other words which pan most consistently gives good results? I have always been a PVC rubber liner guy but I don't do many showers. If there is a better method with consistent good results I'm all ears.
Thank you
Can we get a box test made with type1 organic adhesive and cement board tape in the corners? Way before any of these paint on products we used Dap 2001 to water proof our niches .
I only use redgaurd over certain parts of my schluter systems. I know its not required but I redgaurd everywhere I have banding (perimeter of shower pan and any joints with kerdi band on the walls. However, I think you should re-do this test and use the cement board mesh tape with thinset at your change of plains and then redgaurd it. May not make a difference but the tape and thinset is required on joints and change of plains. With all that said, id never rely on redgaurd as my only waterproofing. Love these videos.
You are wasting time and money using redgard over schluter. And you void your schluter warranty by doing so. Install the schluter correctly and there is nothing to worry about...
yes I agree, The concrete takes much longer than 24hrs to dry, more like 48hrs+ depending on the thickness of the base and tempature of the air.
Also Im thinking several thinner coats are better that 2 heavy wet coats.
heavy coats are going to dry slower and have more tendancy to crack.
Sure would be great to see a side-by-side comparison with some of the other products.
curious if a primer applied first would help
it seems the mortar bed is the variable here that caused the redguard to flake up rather then come up in a sheet. Also I could have SWORN i remember reading that redguard requires a meshtape on changes of plane and that helps prevent cracking whereas a product like laticrete does not. This could be due to it being thinner than laticrete as mentioned.
That or it was applied unevenly
I've never used red guard without using their band at change of plain. Why not use it in this type test? An do the instructions not say to use a 3/8 nap roller?
Can you please do the same simulation for laticrete waterproofing?! Thanks
something seems off about this. whenever i work with redguard on mud beds do a base coat kind like priming with a much thinner watered down redguard then the regular layers. i also do mesh tapes in all the joints beforehand pressed down with thinset.
Yup first coat need to be really thin and mixed with water like it said on Spec sheet.
I think it is better to put 3 or even 4 thin coat than only 2 Thick coat.
The Product retraction seem to be the problem.. top of the coat dry and pull on herself.. and crack ? (Maybe)
I've tried redguard on my bathroom. 4 layers to put recommended quantity.
I applied it with a Little roller and a Brush on corner.
I also put Mesh on corners and junction between walls and flange of the shower pan (no Mortar bed so no redguard on the Floor).
I got a Nice red uniform finish!!.
No crack at all!
Dont know how it Will be over the time but .. so far, so good!
Thanks for your precious videos!!
IT really help and give a chance to learn more about the fine art of tiling and.. surely avoid big mistake!
I really appreciate your channel!
Have done a flood test with Mapei aqua defense if not would you be willing to give it a try.
Thanks for sharing all your videos with your viewers.
I'm curious try Henry tropicool and see if it will work. May have a bonding issue bonding to the tropicool
Man Im currently living in an apartment I wouldn't be able to test anything here, I'd love to see you do one on hydroban if possible. Would be nice to see a layout of most commonly used waterproof products. This was a great idea. You know in the forums or groups everyone knows more than the other guy and it never goes anywhere. Thanks again
When can you wait 24 hrs first coat, 48hrs second coat, and so on. I wish you had re applied after 4-6 hrs like you said to test it as applied in the field.
I am using the red guard as a moisture barrier between a new cement leveling slab and slate tile floor. The original cement floor did not have a moisture barrier when the space was built in 1950. Following an architect consultant's advice I will use Redguard as a moisture barrier. His crews use Redgaurd in apartment building renovations and new projects for shower enclosures and bathrooms. Before moving forward with my project, I called Custom Building Products with my cure question. They recommend the cement cures for 28 days. Granted a cement pour is not a mortar bed and I am not dealing with full water immersion situation. The manufacturer suggested that if I wanted to lay tile prior to 28 days, I could use their Redguard Speedcoat product which can be applied over uncured surfaces, and of course is much more toxic! I am almost to the 28th cure day for the less toxic version of their product.
Are the blisters caused from the moisture in the cement on the bottom?
7:52 “8pm this morning”
got a good laugh
Is it supposed to be water proof or water resistant? Thanks for the heads up. Good job!
I did a pan with dry pack, kerdi membrane, and unmodified mud, and coated the whole thing with two coats of red gard. No leaks after a 10 day flood test. Red gard does seem to behave strangely against dry pack, so I usually apply it over kerdi membrane that's been set over the dry pack. Don't really use red gard much. Hydroban seems much more effective/forgiving.
Why put red guard over kerdi?
Just do the seams
Hi Isaac,
I was first introduced to Redgard (and similar paint on elastomeric products, I'll mention one that I haven't been able to locate in the US by the name of Gripset 51, a popular Aussie/ New Zealand product that has an UV and potable water rating) in New Zealand in about 2006. All waterproof installers in New Zealand must attend and obtain a certificate issued by the product manufacture. I held certificates from 4 different manufactures of these type products. The BIG difference in the installation practices in New Zealand and Australia of these types of products (when applying over a concrete substrate in 2006) was that the concrete must cure for at LEAST 7 days, I let my concrete cure at least 10 days) and that the elastomeric waterproofing products are applied beneath the pre slope. all the joints are either filed with a filled rod, taped or product like Dyna Flex 230 (which I understand these days may no longer be recommended practice with Redgard) allowed to fully cure, (silicone products aren't used as they don't bond with the latex products). Then a light coat (sometimes referred to as a prime coat) applied in all corners and transitions. Allowed to dry at least 24 hours. Then a first coat applied and allowed to dry at least 24 hours, then repeat two more coats allowing the product to dry 24 hours between each application. According to the manufacture instructors, the most common cause for failure or these types of products is 1) too large a gap for the product to bridge, 2) to thick of a coat per application, 3) not allowing the product to thoroughly dry between coats and prior to putting the shower pan on test. The finish coat is recommended by the manufacture to be at least 3 mil thicK (or at least the thickness of a credit card). It seems that many people don't cross their coats of application, or run the product down into the drain. Of course time is money and its a completive situation. Doing it the way I was taught takes time and consequently costs more. There are no short cuts. As a side note, also in New Zealand and Australia the water proofing product is run at least 600 mm past the dam and containment area of the shower. A drain in the floor of all wet areas (laundry room bathrooms with shower or tubs) was also required. Its a really inexpensive method to avert potential hazmat issue with toilet overflows and just a good idea in areas that potential water damage could result in very expensive repairs. I generally tank the entire room as Redgard and similar products will accept latex paint. It takes a little longer and costs a bit more but I have yet to have one fail. Also it should be noted that products like Henry's Tropicol won't bond well with Thinset. I've also had Mapei thin sets fail to bond to Mapei foam board.
Might be that it needs more time to dry like 24 hrs per coat other wise it leaves microscopic pores and possible even the cement needs more time to dry for the red guard to work. But this was a great lesson for all of us. I would never use redguard in a shower pan only on vertical surfaces where water cant pool, I much prefer the the laticrete membrane better quality all around and saves time in drying time if it has to be left more to dry.
Have you tried Blue Max? I recently used it to waterproof my basement. It is very flexible and doesn't crack. It's like rubber.
Could you put RedGuard ontop of Kerdi as double protection?
Great demonstration…For clarification I am a very basic diyer…anyway could one conclusion be Redgard is a better water proofing product for walls and not so much as for shower pans….or what is a more effective water barrier is a available for walls that you can also tile over…Or are all these products equal and the installer (myself) the week link?
Feed back from the manufacture may shine some light on the issue. Show them this video and ask for their feedback. Great video, test. Keep up the good work and stay independent and unbiased.
is 24hrs enough for curing? moisture free? it has to be moisture from within..
What made you go away from Ardex 8 +9 over Kerdi?
Learn something every day thanks for video 👍
What I don’t understand is with so many issues with building water proof pans out of various separate components, why aren’t pre-made one piece custom waterproof shower pans, (like offered by KBRS and WEDI), used more?
I would love to see Tile Coach do a side-by-side comparison, in time and material, of a component pan system (like Schulter), and a one piece custom pan (like KBRS).
I love kbrs pan. Been using them for 9 years
Pre-made pans is the best solution. Tiles in any wet environment will always fail sooner or later.
Thanks for the info...would love to see same test with hydoban
Can you do an acrylic box test with Mapei Aqua Defense?
The chemistry is the reason. Water re emulsified the bonds.
I think the plexiglass is the problem no suction and impossible to get an even coat
Trim the sides with cement board
And tape the traditional way and then red guard 👍
Oh I forgot to address the cracks in the corners, when it does that it means you're over applying it, putting more over it makes it worse, it's better to cut out the cracks and reapply in thinner coats. Also redgard is generally applied over cement or backers so applying in on plastic is an issue the underlying moisture gets trapped and never allows it to actually cure.
Agreed plus your are supposed to wait 48 to 72 hours for the morter to cure.
I think he might have dropped the ball on this but I'm sure he will redeem himself
Ahh, that makes sense. I was dumbfounded to figure that RedGuard could be THAT weak ! Been in use a while.
Over applying it on the corners makes it crack?? Can someone confirm this?
@@dieterrosswag933 - yep. Apply with a brush and use mesh cloth/tape at seams, corners and drains.
Build up 6 to 9 light layers on the floor to 20-30 mil thick tapering up the walls so no hard transition from thick to thin and 2 or 3 coats on walls with ample dry time between.
Ive been using a long time and never had a failure.
@@holdernewtshesrearin5471 Thank you. I use tapes between the floor and walls (the joints). It's highly necessary in Germany since the screed is "floating" over a ~5cm foam all over the house, for noise and temperature isolation and also no connected with the wall
Anyway, i didn't know that the "liquid isolation" can break in the corners in short period when there are different thickness in close time application.
I don't think the mud dried enough.
How is that bottom layer of redguard going to cure properly on wet mud? Maybe the skin on the surface looked cured but what bonds to the mud isn't ready.
does the drypack mud offgas?
I've done tested myself and for me it only works when I spread thin layers especially when using a brush cuz redgard does not lay down. I would always use a fiber mesh for corners and use a roller to spread even smooth coats elsewhere. I would like you to do that same test using a roller and making sure it is smooth. Now as far as what the instruction says that amount to me is too much. But I'm sure it will work if spread right. It is hard to achieve a smooth finish with that amount when applying it with a brush, that's why it failed. We are the professionals and at the end of the day we find out what works and how it works. Keep up the good work. I'm starting to record my own videos hopefully I put them out there soon.
Thin layers is exactly what’s needed.
Part of the issue is the glass, you’ve got a moisture trap between the 2 waterproof surfaces, there is nowhere for the moisture in the mud to go.
You bet and the difference in curing between two different substrates-plexi/dry pack the bubbles are because of off gassing of dry pack and no where for the gases to go, absalutly need a rubber pan liner for a water proof design!!!
Not saying it will, but redgard does say to you fiberglass tape on joints and corners. You think that would of helped on the corner ?
I always use a “FABRIC MEMBRANE” such as XFasten or Kohree fabric membranes on changes of plane and roll the redgard through the fabric membrane with a metal wallpaper seam roller …. Then apply a second coat and “Never” have cracks. Also I don’t use it on mud pans. Although I do cover a curbless mud pan with Kerdi membrane so that I can extend the waterproofing to bathroom floor. This method works fine for me and saves unnecessary expense for the walls. I don’t ever use redgard on horizontal surfaces where water can saturate it!! I believe that the cement is “off gassing” As it cures for up to 7 days and creating blisters as you have now sealed it and the gasses have nowhere to go. Way to soon to coat the mud pan and I wouldn’t do it anyway. Mortar and Kerdi first then redgard and fabric membrane on walls only!! I would be interested in you doing the same test after curing the pan for 7 days… but what’s the point. Unless you’re a DIYer , what customer wants to wait for that. Also your videos seem like you’re setting yourself up to make the Redgard fail. No offense (and I have learned a lot from you) but in a previous video that you posted someone showed you this technique (although he thinned it with water for a “Primer coat “ and I don’t) and you commented that it was the best technique you saw so far. So why don’t you apply what you learned Coach?? Just saying with all due respect!!👌