LIQUID WATERPROOFERS PUT TO TEST, ONE FAILS...sort of
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- čas přidán 20. 05. 2022
- IN response to Isaac Ostrom's failed test of Redgard where he showed water blisters and cracking of Redgard, behold, a REAL test with results when applied properly, on 4 products !
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I’m a licensed home improvement contractor, I built my first shower 8 years ago, after watching videos on CZcams. I followed your guidance to the letter! I’ve done about 15 showers so far!
The things you do for subscribers are appreciated. It shows you desire the best for others.👍 Plus you are fair, with product reviews.
very informative subject and a very realistic effective experiment....thank you for your time and for the great video content.
This is very informative and the results are pretty much as expected based on your previous tests. One suggestion for your next experiment is to use water with a strong dye. This will help visualizing any leaks, if they ever happen. The mortar will also show dye if it ever got wet and dried out.
Thanks!
I don't think with cardboard that dye would help. The leak in the Aquadense showed in the 1st hour, staining the cardboard.
Amazing tests, thanks so much!!
That's old aqua defense for sure. At least a year now it's been turned similar to the hydro ban coloring. At first I was angry about the change because it appears so light after drying that it looks about half the thickness of the old color but after inquiring about the change with mapei it was explained about some guys not being able to see lines through the old colors.
Hey really cool video. I'm a tile guy uses the laticrete waterproofing. Great to see this and give me some confidence and peace of mind
I came here from the video you posted today, this is evidence-based proof that's undisputable, excellent experiment
I love these box tests like Bob has said don’t put your backer board into the mortar pan. Which is demonstrated beautifully on how it can wreak havoc on the boxes and a shower build.
I only watch your videos waiting for April to come back. Just kidding! Thanks for the video and keep up the great work.
Yes I liked April too...thanks for watching regardless
April was a hottie 👍
@@timthetoolman9659 And you know @StarrTile is holding out on us.
Great video! I like your style, and your direct no nonsence approach. I have question for you?
I want to build a roman tub out of double 3/4 ply wood. How would you go about doing this?
You're the man, keep making videos
Thank you sir, I shall 👌
Thanks Bob!
Great work.
Thank you sir !
Thanks for the video I'm a handyman (mostly painting, drywall, carpentry, plumbing and electric) but in my personal opinion is that if it leaks everywhere is the product fault, if it leaks only in some areas is workmanship, again tanks for the effort to do the video!!!
The one time I used Aqua Defense, you could peel it off with your finger nails. Even worse with a notched trowel. That was years ago so hopefully they have improved the formulation.
And yes, freezing probably would effect the product. It definitely does with paint.
Outstanding! Glad I got the RedGard!
Thank you for this video! I worked for a flooring distributor in NJ for 19 years, and they carried Custom Building Products (Redguard) products as well as Mapei, Redgard is a fantastic product but like any other has to be applied properly! It's really bad how much negative influence posters can have on a product that they used incorrectly...
And here I thought you would slam Isaac's method, then you basically just said he did it the way the instruction says to do...good for you keeping it real and avoiding YT drama ✌
Isaac is more of a salesman, Starr Tile actually cares!
Yeah I think on all his Redgard experiments he failed at, it was squarely because he followed instructions.
Thanks for the test👍🏼
With the Redgard do they want you to thin it out with water for your 1st coat? Wonder if that helps with possible pin holes as the product dries and slightly shrinks back..
Also,
Are you using box store bags for your mudpan or you blending yourself? Was interested in knowing what your preference on bagged floor mud was from box stores.
TIA
There are some out there that will water down and use that as a first coat, I have never done that before and would it help? Possibly but I haven't had any issues without doing it.
I buy mortar from home depot, Quickcrete sand topping mix..
If at Lowe's it Sacrete sand mix
Great video!! My first time here!
Project very well done. I wonder if the Aquadefense would have given the same results as the rest of it weren't old?
Hahaha I cracked up at the cancer joke. I install all kinds of floors with my father and as you know pretty much every product we use says that. We always say “good thing we’re in Florida!” Good test, hit pretty much all points possible
How did the aqua defense melt after you put water in it??
Excellent job
Aqua Defense changed their color…not dark anymore…now dries to light pale green. It also has a thinner texture feels more plastic less like rubber.
Nice. As a welder I might just build my self a stainless steel shower tray and walls. Fully welded. It'll never leak!
Nah
Would the temperature exchange be intense? Like cold as can be or hot as hell?
@@GuerreroF5 it will be fine. We're not talking about a space shuttle
@@AutismusPrime69 imagine if someone actually put some water in one of these boxes and left it there for like a week. It would mold and shit but I would love to see that. It takes no work lol
Would it be better to use aluminum?
Hey brother I'm in Hawaii. What waterproofing would you recommend to seal my cement aquarium? I used 500 psi with waterproof additive cement mix
I like the Ardex I show here, thicker & less fumes than redgard
👍TY for your efforts.
Cheers
With red guard, we would run a small electric heater and fart fan on to cure the product a few hours during each coat. Just to help it along removing moisture. As product cures it shrinks thats where potential issues can arise. The 2nd and 3rd I prefer a very warm room for better adhesion. But that was back 15 years ago, with any coatings adhesion is everything
I think the reason why issacs failed is because he applied it to glass, glass isn’t porous and didn’t let the product completely dry and cure underneath because it couldn’t get the air it needed, basically the top of it dried but trapped in the moisture and didn’t let it fully cure.
Absolutely...coaching is a tuff gig
@@StarrTile 🤣
A pvc membrane isn’t porous either so using plexiglass shouldn’t have made a difference.
@@donaldadams4713 umm no one puts red guard on a pvc liner
@@TheHomePros6221 correct, I was wrong I thought you were talking about the deck mud on the plexiglass. But you are right he didn’t use deck mud
Nice work. Interesting. And goes to show how effective liquid waterproofing coatings are.
I'm gonna stand by my technique of using fiberglass mesh cloth/tape in all seams, corners and the drain and applying 2-3 coats on the walls and building up 6-9 coats on the floor, though.
If nothing else the process helps to prevent human error through redundancy and perhaps even overkill. It does work though and it also allows for excessive movement of today's poorly built homes over the years and possible breakdown or hardening of the materials in long term use. Anything can happen over a 10, 20 or 30 year or longer time span.
To each his own though.
I think 3 good coats is sufficient BUT.....if you miss a few pin holes.......yikes!
Subsequent coats will definitely prevent that. 3 coats will generally cover 100% but a 4th coat definitely will and a few coats on top of that lends additional strength and flexibility imo.
6-9 coats ??? Yeah overkill. But to be fair no liner was used, the leak would NOT have happened with a liner of kerdi under it....then again kerdi & other clothe membranes on surface is what most prefer.
@@StarrTile - maybe. But Kerdi is preferred due to speed not effectiveness imo.
I'll just stay with LWPM systems for now.
@@StarrTile - I say 6 to 9 coats but I've rarely ever used more than 6.
Depending on how smooth the finish is I think, it sometimes does go on quite thin and could require more coats though.
I think in my shower, I am going to use Hydroban on my mortar bed, then put thinset+fabric down on top of that. I want that thing to be waterproof forever and I don't trust myself to get the hydroban perfect. Maybe I should do the fabric first, then Hydroban on top of that? Shower pans are hard.
Old school showers have always had waterproofing not liquid Or topical but they have always been waterproofed
how ?
care to explain
@@timthetoolman9659 Rubber pan liner.
Redgard or hydroban for easy too use and less likely to make a mistake… i would guess hydroban is less prone to mistakes based on videos on youtube but i would like your opinion on what would be easier/safer for a newbie… thanks
They are all about the same but after using Ardex I like it a lot better than Red Guard
Is behold better than redguard?
So you typically don’t use a membrane barrier in the pan?
Yes I use a pan liner....as a back up...but you see it's literally not needed
What about Ames BlueMax? Anyone know about it?
My mapei rep said with all these paint on membranes to follow manufacturer directions. 2 coats not 3 not 4… it prevents it from curing properly.
I waterproofed a box with Aqua defense and it lasted days????
As I said in the video the aqua defense was at least 4 to 5 years old and have been through at least 4-5 freeze Winters... in addition to extremely hot summers
I would love to see someone build a shower old school style. No waterproofing but good grout and proper pan slope and see how much water really soaks through when seeing normal use. Not saying a shower should be built with out waterproofing, but just curious.
The problem with "old school" style is that this work is advancing yearly, new materials & methods, so makes no sense going back. But we tear out those old school showers and they all have some kind of damage, hence the new methods.
I just ripped out 2 old school showers, house was built in the 50s, not a drop off water ever hit a stud. The real problem is no one cares anymore and craftsmanship is dead. It's all about how fast you can produce something mediocre that your insurance company will insure.
Don't have audio. What's the order from best to worst?
@nothertiler personally I like Ardex because it is a bit thicker and the fumes aren't as bad, however it is more expensive. So by default I get Redgard because it's easy to get from Home Depot, but overall they tested out exactly the same
And what is exactly wrong with the traditional In-N-Out system with a 40 mil vinyl liner and a pre slope, and plastic weep hole protector, concrete board Hydra been over that.? I would love to hear this
And cars still work fine with carburetors, bag phones and pay phones work great, I hear that a lot of people still use an abacus and can do math just fine with it.
So are you suggesting that building a shower like that and been done that way since the turn of the century should continue on the same course ???
🤣
@BobBon
No reason it WON'T work, and as I stated on the video, many will continue that method...but things change, new methods, new materials, I'm sure there was a predecessor prior to the method you describe....and in 50 years there will be new ways.
@@StarrTile correct but why fix something if it's not broken all these liquid waterproofing, foam board, and all this stuff, that's come out in the last 10 or 15 years....... to me it was invented because people did not have the skills to do dry pack, and in combination of not knowing how a drain is supposed to be hooked up.....
@@timthetoolman9659 has the wheel been reinvented? Nope not really you want to know why because people know it works and if something works you don't change it
@@timthetoolman9659 you're probably one of these guys that doesn't know how to drypack properly, you just stick to your foam and Sheet membranes buddy🤣.....
Nice job
Freezing would of made it gel. From the Rockys seen it happen many times.
I am concerned now about my aquadefense. I did three coats on pan…..praying it will be enough
I have had good luck with aqua defense, it just so happens in that video the extra I had was 4 to 5 years old and as I mentioned in the video probably Frozen a few times
@@StarrTile thanks. I do remember in one of your critiques videos you pointed out that the person only used maybe 2 coats to cover and you could still see the white areas and grey areas on the walls. I was determined then to make sure I doubled down on the usage of it! At least 4 coats and everything is well covered. Had my husband go behind me to double check!
Well illustration 👌 the real thing oh how to make used off a product.
Thank You
Use "TEC" triple flex. 2 part liquid powder mix for waterproof and crack isolation.
Bravo nice work
Please edit for length
Boxs are also porous and have layers so probably sucked the moisture out
Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison experiment. I saw Isaac’s red guard video and I certainly didn’t like the way he applied it. The manufacturer clearly doesn’t explain proper application on its directions or MSDS. Strangely Custom Building Products red guard video shows applying the product the way you just did it and certainly not super thick the way Isaac did.
I think the whole point Isaac was trying to make in his video is not to apply it the way the directions say, but I also think he has a dislike for redgard since he has a definitive preference towards hydroban.
But more importantly in regards to how I do things it always comes down to critical thinking rather than reading anybody's instructions
@@StarrTile I don't think Isaac has a dislike for RedGard. If it worked when applied as the directions tell you, he'd have no problem. I can't imagine why their directions would be so bad or inaccurate? That would frustrate the hell out of me. Maybe he he does have a dislike for RedGard, but dislikes them because their directions suck. Not because he prefers Hydroban.
Anybody have experience with SEMCO?
Isaccs videos interesting to say the least.
But very correct. I’ll follow the directions and if it fails it’s on them not me.
That’s crap. It’s common sense you need.
Every job isn’t the same. Hell there’s some houses that should not get tile.
Personally many rush a job and causes issues. I can redo Isaacs video and make bubbles. It’s call not letting it dry correctly or way to thick.
Anyway areas being clean ( anyone reading this. Use a brush and shop vac. You want the area to be very clean before you apply RG. Or other.
Anyway. Good video I hope many learn from it. Most need to understand that if they hire someone and it’s done it 2 days they got ripped off. On avg it’s 5days.
I just did a job and the customer that watches your videos. He wanted kerdi so he got it.
I agree 100%...critical thinking is imperative in every trade, directions are guides only.
And yes I've been told by many homeowners that they had a guy that talked about building a shower in 3-4 days !! What ??? It's 5 days just for prep.
Good comment ✔
@@StarrTile 100%
@@StarrTile
Here’s 1 for ya. Customer watched you tube. Not your videos.
Deck mud down in morning. 10 hrs later red guard on it.
The guy is a Dr. Nice guy but likes to use his hands. Shocked he tried it himself.
Bubbles in red guard with water test.
He put 2 coats on. 1 hr apart. And went thick in corners. Lol
I felt bad telling the Dr.
1st. Beautiful job so far
2- deck mud should be left alone technically for 24 hours. To fully be curried is 28 days.
3- red guard was put on wet deck mud. Then both coats to heavy.
I’m still shocked. 17 years as a ortho surgeon and he was doing it himself. But I told him the bad news and he blasted you tube. I pointed him to your channel if he tries the next 1 himself.
I’m gonna do this one.
He asked me why I don’t do videos. I said I think you tube has policy’s that if cross.
I’d start mine with.
Hello all 95% of videos you see are shit.
Directions are only a guide
All jobs are different
If you want to waste your Fu--Ing money go watch someone else.
( still shocked he was a Dr. Lol. Just takes my breath away )
I’m not understanding how you deal with the gap between your pan and the backer board on the walls that you leave. Do you fill that with silicone caulk and then redguard over everything?
No it remains a void so it can air out and dry just in case water goes back up into it, do not fill the void with anything
@@StarrTile oh ok thank you, I appreciate it.
Looks like that third coat emulsified!😆
Wow so nice
I just bought 3 gallons of aqua defense hope I didn’t make the wrong decision
No you're good, as I mentioned in the video it had been sitting in my trailer exposed to extreme heat and extreme cold for 2 years
There isn't any melting on the redgard. The solvent evaporates off, so it is solid then. Water is a solvent so it could have some impact on the surface area. I think that is the real question and it turning pink when wet has some reaction. How can you even deny that?
Isaac used the cheesy flex seal waterproofing in one of his showers and it worked.....Why? He used a fabric. I think you should use a fabric with liquid membrane. It reinforces the membrane, makes it stronger and it doesn't create those pin holes. The epoxy grout formula channel shows the best way to use redgard as a pan waterproofer. REDGARD is all he uses but he does use a fabric in conjunction with REDGARD.
I think the pin holes were in relation the the age and exposure to the Aquadefense, never had pin hole issues before and the other 3 had none. Does the mesh help ?? Maybe, but again, the other 3 were solid even at the seams without mesh & only 2 coats.
I did a mock up using Flex Seal 3 years ago, Isaac copied me but used paintable rather than the spray can(s) I used. Mine failed to stick, I think because it was oil based in can, and what he used was water based in the pail.
So instead of pvc liner use a fabric? ... So essentially it goes 1. Sloped dry pack mortar 2. Fabric liner 3. Topical membrane ?
What is the “Divit “system you mention at the end of?
You can look it up on CZcams, basically the divot system has to do with making a funnel out of your mortar around the drain
Same thing with old paint it degrades over years and if applied it will start to peel off or cracking. Also polymer infused liquids and even thinset degrade overtime as well if not used even with intact packaging. Sealed packaging may let them last for 2 years that is what is know as shelf life, but open package accelerates degradation of product, perhaps 6-12 months and it has to be disposed..
Exactly...that's why I believe I had such strange results with the Aquadefense
Still using Redgard for all your work?
Yup
Well I got a refrigerator box that's going to be my new shower.
Fucking awesome. Love your hammer!!!
You mean the HD special that everyone has ? LOL !
A suggestion for a more accurate reading for thickness: maybe try soaking the samples, then rub off the cardboard leaving only product and maybe a portion of the cardboard if permeated with the product. Thank you.
Nice
Can I put redguard over kerdi?
I don't trust kerdi. Lol
@mlhscanada1069 yes...definitely, I apply it to the overs laps.
@StarrTile awesome, I was thinking of throwing it out. A famous youtuber was bad mouthing it. Thanks for doing the test
@mlhscanada1069 Isaac has at least three or four videos where has screwed up a job, common sense screw up....so take whatever he says with a grain of salt.
But to that point he doesn't use common sense so it's not the material that screwed up is the lack of caution to mitigate the weak spot, which is the overlap
nice
You didn't use fabric on the corners.
Oh no, it'll fail, the sky is falling !! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Have to redo the test with fresh product, 3 years old seems beyond normal shelf life
Why did you disabled your comments on the pre slope shower pan linear video from 7 years ago? Because you know someone was going to tell you you’re wrong
Actually I'm correct, but there are a lot of book soldiers out there that will believe anything is written rather than what they are told.
And I've already done a mock-up of a pre slope going back three years ago where the water came out of my mock-up without any slope so there is the proof positive that I am correct...
But before you force me to pat myself on the back, I will say that the pre slope and weep holes and all that garbage doesn't matter anymore because everybody has turned to a sealed system, whether it be the divot method or the bonding flange or the way I do it... no water enters your moar thereby making that video irrelevant 👌✌💪😉
"All four of these product cause cancer in California. Fortunately I'm not in California..."
LOL
This video could have started 10 minutes into it
ALWAYS HAD GOOD LUCK WITH HYDRO BAN . GO WITH WHAT YA KNOW LOL.
Corners really needed tape.
Yes only because it was flexible cardboard, but the waterproofers were still awesome in those corners without the tape.
What do you think of using elastomeric caulk in the corners of a shower pan as a bond breaker, the Hydroban Australian channel recommends that?
Big fan of watching Isaacs videos to pick up on techniques on how to work with surface waterproofing membranes, learned a lot about how to apply the the banding etc. in a manner that ensures a thin layer of thinset to the joint.
That said I also found his surface water-proofer tests to be flawed in many ways. As mentioned applying to wet deck mud (while tempting in production work) is a sure path to failure and with any brush roll on material that relies on air to dry its essential that the layers be thin and allowed to dry before another layer is applied. This is different than cement based product where water causes a reaction or epoxy where a chemical reaction takes place.
Also as to how the expired product worked sealing the pin holes, think of any radiator sealer....they are carried by flow to the leak where (as long as its small) they are are able to seal it even under heat and pressure. Of course that does not mean that you should use an expired material as putting any other problems aside with surface water proofers, unlike a radiator sealer, a surface water proofer has to provide a surface for the thinset to bond to.
Lastly you being the older person ( I am 67 myself) you need to take the high ground, full time with Sal and Isaac..... as you have here. As you will IMO do much better with serious watchers by being understanding in your reaction to insults than if you try to outperform them insult wise.
Thanks for the vid and hang in there.
"fortunately I'm not in California, so it won't cause cancer" lol
Well....EVERYTHING seems to cause cancer in Cali
You kinda contradicted yourself there saying that a liquid waterproofing agent could not go back to being liquid after drying. I can tell you for certain that freezing will in fact cause efficacy problems with almost any wet product.
Yeah, that was funny. Can't turn back to liquid and sure enough it did. It is possible the liquefied product plugged the leak. I wouldn't be surprised if there is expansive clay such as bentonite in these products. Bentonite becomes a waterproof gel when it hydrates.
Common sense is clay can turn into muddy water, dry out, then become muddy again.
Similarity sugar can be dissolved then dry out over and over.
Yup he is not to bright. His experiment is as flawed as anything. Does not even realize that the cardboard is why he got all the cracks.
Behold @15:15 freezing no issues, years before this video
czcams.com/video/e__ntwvRX5U/video.htmlsi=HuEl4_s5KhyQM2aO
@toddrichardson3415 ..duh, you do know I dummy down stuff on CZcams over 13 years here for the idiots out there, apparently you fall into that crowd 🤣
Wow. Crystal clear. You can criticize another person but if you say and do something not to bright, well then that person must be dumb. Oh and you just called your audience dumb. Nicely done! I bow to your superior intelligence.
I didn’t watch Isaac’s video, but when you said that he used glass, I knew right away his experiment was flawed. At the very least, he would have to put super thin layers and maybe use a hairdryer or something to adhere to the glass. And I can’t understand how the glass would add any value to the experiment anyway. Maybe if he used dye in the water, he could see it seep through the material or the cracks he always seems to get when he does his experiments.
Anyway, thanks for setting up an experiment. I really don’t understand why Isaac is so down on Red Guard. It’s relatively cheap and it’s effective (and you don’t need special training to use it).
He had made the comment that he use glass so that he could see the sides of it and know what's going on internally. But I agree no advantage, which is why I use cardboard because it was pretty obvious when I had a leak.
And I don't know why his pushback on redgard.. except that it's sold at Home Depot primarily. But as you mentioned, every experiment he does with it he applied it way too think which begets the cracking.
He also claims it's too thin and hydroban is thicker.
As a I mentioned in the video, operator malfunction is real.
It melted
Cardboard is not an approved substrate. If you build a bathroom out of cardboard it will fail
Perhaps....maybe not based on my experiment. Point is the waterproofers did their job 👌🏼👍🏻
Red guard is crap! when water makes it through the grout and tile it’ll return the red guard back to pink!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I prefer hydroban
"Use common sense". Yes Bob Doyle but sadly, common sense just isn't that common anymore.
Melting? Water is a strong solvent to many things. Solvents don't melt things. Your explanation might be worse than Isaac's
Cannot turn a solid back to a liquid by using a liquid to do it, and more specifically in this case.
I suggest you look up the definition of re emulsify
@@StarrTile yes you can turn many solids to liquids by using liquid. Looks like it's Time for a high school chemistry class for you.
Now emulsify might be the wrong word. But like I said, your explanation might be worse than Isaac's.
Btw what are you doing up so late?
@@travisk5589 yes there are solids that can turn to a liquid with water...but as I said, specifically NOT in this case. The term he used re emulsify had his viewers believe that waterproofers can become a liquid after drying, totally bogus and ill informed. It's bad "coaching" at the very least, and at worst it's slamming redgard in lieu of HIS favorite. His failure was operator malfunction.
I was slinging tile all day until 7pm and getting home late means going to bed late ✔
@@StarrTile gotcha. But you got hung up on Isaac's incorrect use of the word or process, which didn't need to be done. Everyone knew what issac was getting at.
So I did it back to you.
@@travisk5589 words matter to others, I wasn't caught up on the term but ppl watching might...he gives the impression that redgard can or will turn back to liquid so clarification was needed. Many that watch him think he knows what he speaks.
As I always said , if you know what you are doing and you are a good mechanic you dont need any of these stupid new product. I feel all these new product allow contractor to do bad installations and relay on the water proofing to cover their ass.
But what about those key areas ~ the shower curb/step, the bottom row of tile on the wall (of some houses)
Can redgard or aqua defense do anything if you do it as stripes on important seams?
Putting on wallpaper is so ignorant to say it's a waterproof membrane it's like saying or you are putting paint on you're shower walls to waterproof how dumb is that either method works they are both waterproof
I stand by my word, there's never a problem on walls, but if I'm going to do the walls I'm not going to apply wallpaper... it's a lot of work for *NO* return AND costly, much easier and faster to use a liquid topical membrane.
But hey you do you 🫡
damn vinyl planks are so ugly, it's one of those trend of a few year that a decade later everybody recognize it's horrible looking, people are so easily swayed with the crow. vinyl planks or tile is plastic and plastic is crap for wear and aging over time always was and still is.
This shows and proves nothing. Your entire experiment is doomed from the beginning as you did not use ANY waterproofing fabrics or membranes around the box. Your deck mud cracked because the boxes sucked all the moisture from the deck mud before it cured properly. Then you didn't fix that and instead just slathered product all over the place. THEN you used 3-year-old product and had to make excuses for the failure. Also, why are you responding to Isaac? Did he call you out regarding one of your failed jobs or what?
Obviously you are a troll, so definitely not worth my time responding, but I will say this, I've never failed a shower and yet Isaac has at least six failure videos, go put that in your pipe and smoke it 🖕🏻
I'm a believer in the topical membrane, but now you have me worried since I just completed my shower with Aqua Defense. 😟
So the lesson learned with yours and Isaac's videos are to wait for the mortar bed to complety dry before applying the topical membrane. Being that Isaac waited 24 hours for a small area and it still wasn't dry, wouldn't there be a lot of down time waiting at least 72 hours before applying the topical membrane? Plus another 24 for a water test after? Fine for a DIY, but doesn't seem very efficient for a professional.
My pan is poured day 1 of a job with a fan on it every evening I leave, next day I'm doing wallboard and, or the outside floor........day 3 I'm sanding off & tapering off mud on walls or other things, then end of day 3 I waterproof. Doing it that way a LONG time.