What Harmonic Balancers Do and Why You Need One!
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- čas přidán 25. 05. 2023
- In this video we dive into the sexy world of harmonic balancers with the help of special guest Ivan Snyder from Fluidampr! We explain what they do, why you need one and what an aftermarket harmonic balancer can do that a factory balancer just wasn't designed for.
If you want us to build your engine, click here: motoiq.com/motoiq-garage/ - Krátké a kreslené filmy
I was very skeptical of these dampers actually being effective until I ran one on my built EJ25. I cant believe I didn't end up with one sooner. With a properly balanced engine the effect is even more noticeable. Revs felt much smoother and shifting was hugely improved at higher RPM. this was coming from an aluminum pulley with zero dampening ability. Stick with your OE pulley until you can get a fluidampr or ATI pulley. Fluidampr is set and forget which makes it ideal for %95 of us using these on street cars. The big thing you'll notice is how heavy the fluidampr is but it absolutely does not make the engine lethargic.
We noticed on an EJ they even sound a little different with a Fluidampr
@michaelscarport fluidampr, no potential maintenance required. A lot of dry sump kits run the ATI because of the bolt on gear for the belt. Nothing against ATI they work great as well. My uncle has run one on his SR20 for nearly 10 years now. Fluidampr = sealed unit.
I put a solid pulley on my srt4 and didn't notice any change 😂
I run a Fuidampr on my MK5 GTI, no issues.
Angular momentum is r-squared, so the weight of a flywheel at 2x the diameter has 4x the “lethargic” effects per gram/once/etc.
same reason lighter wheels (and tires) are 2x more helpful than body weight/mass!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum
I know this isn't the thing on this channel, but I think we'd all appreciate seeing/hearing some shop cars, maybe a little tour through the builds. I love the technical details, never a bad time to learn something!
Noted!
Fluidampr was the best thing I did to my old EJ25. Smoother shifting, easier to started on hills, much smoother throughout the rev range.
@@TurboHDT the real magic came when I sold the car ;)
I put one on a BBF motor and I could definitely tell that it was smoother all around. Even though it was heavier it revved faster.
Did this require a retune? @@ricepony33
Welp.....this is just great. I had to pause this video about half a dozen times to look up terms these guys use. This is both a compliment to Mike and guest and a non compliment to my meager vocabulary.
Probably an issue with education system from where you’re from tbh 😊 not your fault
New to the scene? Your bike shouldnt need this..
straight up love getting learnt from these guys
@@oetic5016 my bike has 4 Harmonic Balancers..... One for each muffler bearing.
A lot of mechanical engineering jargon.
This videos are the boom! Love hearing engineering at its best, not from clase room but from year of experience! Love this videos!
Haha Mike struggling not to upstage homeboy is great. Dude is literally an encyclopedia
I'm cleaning a carb while I'm listening. And this spokesman sounds like Dan Aykroyd .
Very informative, thank you
"He makes car parts for the American working man because that's who he is and that's who he cares about" -Zalinsky
I always learn so much from MotoIQ!!
One of the best car channels on CZcams! Thank you for your hard work. Waiting for more great videos!
Mr. Kojima you sir are a living legend! Thank you for sharing your wisdom over the years.
Thats so cool to hear you guys worked on Dai Yoshihara car. I got to meet Dai at WBM 2023 this year. That turbo ls7 brz is absolutely amazing. And he’s a super chill guy, very approachable and willing to answer questions. We also got to see him drift around the track for a good hour or so. Totally awesome to see that level of driving skill in person.
Awesome video with a lot of detailed information on how these harmonic dampers mitigate internal twist. I've got a fluidampr (and no balance shafts) on my Evo, wish I had done the fluidampr from the start
excellent info & demonstration! keep up the good work guys.
Appreciate the cross examination between the Fluidampr & ATI damper
just bought a fluidampr for my sti. thank you for putting out this info
Great video! Really learned a lot from both of you. Appreciate the insight as always
You are very welcome, thank you for watching!
I'm glad that I'm currently using fluidampr on my car. Thanks for the really helpful info
I decided on an ATI for my Whipple supercharged Gen 2 Coyote and I rev it out to 7600 all the time very smooth and loves the revs. However we just built my 2007 LBZ Duramax using the Fluidamper and I love them both. I love the fact that I don’t ever have to rebuild the fluidamper so I’ll be switching out my ATI instead of rebuilding it to the fluidamper.
Love these types of series !
thank you for your video,
very informative
great to see excellent work
your passion for building engines sure is great
thank you again
Love this, love to learn always been curious about fluid damper thanks!
I bought myself one of these for my honda B series today so thank you both for this video 👍👍
What kind of power you running? Notice any difference?
Good show, Thanks!
Excellent explanation
Thanks Mike for filling in the gaps for me 😂 I got lost a bit until you dumbed it down for me hahaha
love the videos. im LEARNED!
Great video, now I'm convinced to go with fluidampr
I've always wanted to know how a fluidampr works. Thanks
Did i just hear Kojima say "bro"
Cooked my oil pump gear on a toyota 2zz engine because of harmonics from installing an under driven crank pulley. These guys speak the truth
I had no idea. Thanks for waking me up.
Great detail
I really want one of these! Going to need to get rid of my dual mass flywheel soon and it already brings the ruckus with the chatter
Would be cool if there was one for the Volvo 5 cylinder.
Taking any weight of of the rotating assembly will for sure free up HP. It be nice to see these become lighter and lighter but still cushion the harmonics appropriately!
I have a bone stock LS3 with headers, an ACT prolite lightweight flywheel, solid hub 6-puck clutch, solid serpentine tensioner, T56 Magnum, and a DR44G alternator. I don't baby the engine. I go through two sets of tires every year, clutch kick it, shift hard, and have towed 70% of the vehicle weight. Ever since new, on acceleration pulls, I can hear a rattle in the transmission from 3000RPM up that matches the engine speed.
-- The stock harmonic balancer has started to wobble and at 5 years/80K miles, and it may have done damage to my power steering pump. If the crankshaft snout isn't bent, I'm going to install a "Fluidampr" and see if that calms things down.
-- If the crank is bent, I'll use a Fluidampr on my rebuild, which will have a mild cam (228/240-112, .591"/.551"), 3.75" stroke, 6.2" rods, 1.165" flat top JE pro pistons, and a 4.07" bore.
-- The fluidampr assembly is nice because it's one piece that does not depend on the strength of rubber to make it run concentric with the crankshaft snout. I'm not too concerned with the weight of the damper because it's small in diameter, so inertia is less of an issue.
-- I do suspect two other things: I might need to get a smaller alternator like a CS130D, a larger alternator pulley, and re-consider how I tension the belt. It's always been in the back of my mind, and now here I am with a busted crank pulley.
Would be great if this was available for sr20 Going from dualmass flywheel to single mass with the CD009 trans has caused some issues Id love to get rid of. Please consider?
wish you could put up a poll, several years ago I did my own research and I always thought the technology was better on the fluidumpr vs the ATI. a lot of guys were running the ATI and suggesting the ATI. I don't recall the reasons for going ATI versus of fluidampr . thinking that something to do in tuning the damper for specific frequencies.
nevertheless I bucked the trend and went with the fluidampr haven't looked back since or thought about it really. but you never forget how smooth the motor is at high RPMs
ATI dampers are very good as well, the main thing is they need occasional maintenance to replace the elastomers.
this guy is amazing!!! thank you @MotoIQ
I'll be adding one to the d16v1 turbo build
I got a 2jz on poly motor mounts, adding a fluidampr, no joke, the motor at idle no longer vibrates the interior, the engine runs super smooth and this may be an placebo, but i swear the motor rev's up faster.
And with the 2jz you can ask any owner of one, the oem pulley is a ticking time bomb, and for the price of a oem replacement, for a virtually lifetime part, its an no brainer.
Your forgot to mention Canyon runners 22:22. I beat the crap out of my mostly stock engine 350Z for over 1200 turns on Tail of the Dragon, easily more than an hour ON the throttle at high rpms, just having so much fun! I did it 4x back to back, LOL! My aftermarket brakes and clutch did start to get soft at the very end and I had to call it a day. When I rebuild that motor, which still runs alright at 128k, I'm adding an aftermarket damper.
That ball bearing moving so slowly through the fluid is spinning me out ! Haha
What is amazing is all the Toyota aftermarket "performance " stores that push light weight billet crank pulleys- especially for the 4age. The Toyota WSR racers quickly (lightly tuned 4age) learned running without a damper resulted in reduced bearing life. But shops still promote the "performance advantage" of a light weight pulley
🥳😎 Awesome job.
I have one on my built B20vtec motor, definitely a noticeable difference and smoother idle with these big cams
Might just have to get one for my b20 ef
yeah thanks so much
A great company!
Do they make a liquid one for the KA I would rather go with that than the ATI now.
You need to do a back to back comparison with the ATI Super Damper......
Interesting that Subarus are mentioned, I would have thought there wouldn't be much crank whip in a EJ crank due to the short length. I'm certainly considering a damper for my AMC I6 build, almost all of those old American I6s have big crank whip issues and are well known to not rev much past 5k rpm without breaking.
Most Subaru tuners say that you don't need a damper. In addition to the crank being short like you said, the boxer firing order means that 2 cylinders 180 degrees from each other are always firing at the same time, canceling out most of the vibration. There's still a bit of uneven force thanks to the rod journals for each opposing pair of cylinders being staggered, but it isn't much.
I want to put one on my '11 Legacy GT with an EJ255 but it has a special size that's not used in any other subaru application :/
earlier EJ motors used the 2 belt setup but the USDM 5th gen legacy only has 1 belt like the FA engines. FA harmonic balancers are a different size too so it looks like I have no options
Can you please do a video on how to get a job with you or another shop like yours
I love the theory behind this technology.
Could the centre hoop be made with offset heavier elements like some cranks have in their counter weights?
I think ati did make counterweighted crank pulley for their diesel duramax l5p ...
I guess depends heavily on the specific engine wether needed that offset counter balance or not...
Being the original is harmonically tuned, matching the dampened mass internally (the outside of the pulley is now the internal floating counterweight) it still needs to be close to the original weight to have an effect on the crank vibration. Too light of a pulley = less weight to accelerate = not enough damping to do the job. In my limited knowledge there isn't a practical way to make the damper lighter without defeating the purpose of the damper. You can make it more compact by using lead or tungsten carbide, but it won't reduce the weight. The only good way I know is to make acceleration faster is by making the flywheel or torque converter lighter and smaller in diameter. Because I have never heard of it having much affect on harmonics, it's probably a better bet. (Sorry for making it a deep rabbit hole 😅. )
When is fluidampr going to come out with products for the Toyota ur series of engines
I run a fluid dampener on my tuned EVO.
I run a fluid damper on my car, its not even really high output but it has really smoothed out my idle and revs. As for power freed up I cant really tell there but for any car I build, a fluid damper will be going on it.
sure the smoothness isn't placebo after buying a new part, right?
@@AlexRib I had all sorts of little weirdness with my lightened flywheel and the stock pulley/damper, the Fluid Damper did a lot to take care of that, along with getting high end radium fuel pulse dampers installed.
Please do it for sr20 engine !
Would love to see what they could develop for the VW Porsche Aircooled world.
Put a fluidmpr on my gen2 coyote, I wonder if the timing has improved
Now I understand why it cost me $500 for one. I am glad I did it.
You sold me! I was doing my do diligence and now convinced I need this for my Duramax LMM build.
Thanks for the video!
Good call. Gale Banks of @bankspower is specifying a Fluidampr (Banks branded) for their new line of turnkey (crate) diesel engines. Crankshaft breakage has been an issue with performance diesel and its good to see there is a solution
Very, very informative. After watching the video and comparing the Fluidampr construction to my car’s OEM damper, I’m 99.99% sure it’s made by Fluidampr.
The do OEM for some companies.
Very nice info!! Can we put up the harmonic damper/fluidamper anytime we wanted? Or it must be balanced together with the cranks during the rebuilt rage?
You can use anytime
As MotoIQ responded, anytime. Important to note that every component of the Fluidampr assembly is machine spun balanced to tighter than OE specification. Therefore, if a rotating assembly has already been balanced, no additional balancing is required.
Thanks for the vid. If you could just move out of the way i want to see what you've got going on in that GD's engine bay
Fluidampr! Please make one for the gen V LT1 Camaro🙏
Great video, I have a questions. Does an ati pulley balance on a machine that balances engine parts ? Do we balance the engine parts without the ATI pulley and mount the pulley once the engine is finished ? thx
Balance with
5:42 honda dampeners are good to about 11,000 rpms.
What about how tightly the pulley fits onto the crank?
I heard people saying the fluidampr doesn't "press fit" onto the crank whereas the ATI damper does, and that the tighter it fits onto the crank the better it can reduce vibration.
it depends on the application..
I did not see you both mention the aluminum race pulley with white lettering on it. Was hoping yall would have shed some light on it as I have one installed on my 3rz t100
That's a Fluidampr
I need one on my ls1
Ok hold on, what on earth was that big word you just said at 4:10!?😅 “hiesteresisisss”
My Kia G4FJ needs one.
I'd love to get some info from Mr Kojima regarding air/air vs air/water intercoolers for various situations especially road course/track
For road racing Air to Air. Most of the time, prefer air to water only for LSR cars or Roots blowers.
i know nobody asks for it but id love to see some coyote content. they used fall flat to the ls in terms of cost to value but with the oldest ones being over ten years old theyre becoming easier to find.
Go to Motoiq.com we did an NA build a few years back with Ford Motorsports
I have this thought for a while. The m54b30 is famous for losing the oilpump nut on a frequency due to imbalances. Would a harmonic balancer reduce this effect or even fix this. Or is this due to the mechanical imbalances of the rotating mass of the engine? Any experience with this?
It should help
Where can I get one for my 2012 335I F30 Manuel BMW
Always wanted to put a fluidamper onto my k20, but the price is what kept me from getting one
Have one on my K20A and its well worth the price.
@@spjmrlahey4008 What sort of differences have you noticed?
Does it rev up any quicker? Have the throttle input to RPM increase changed at all?
@@not12listen if it is heavier than the stock damper, that means increased inertia. Increased inertia generally means slower throttle response, if you understand what inertia is.
@@not12listen I've had one installed and I will say it will not grant you any noticeable hp nor affect rpm or throttle response. What it will do is remove a large amount of vibrations coming from the crankshaft secondary forces. When I had a lightweight flywheel installed the vibrations and clutch chatter were quite annoying. I installed fluidamper and pretty much 90 % of the chatter was removed and idle felt way smoother.
@@sepg5084 Ivan from Fluidampr here... it is always a give and take situation; increased inertia will do a better job controlling torsional vibrations, but you are correct, you give a little up on throttle response. However, it is also important to note that there is a rotating weight factor (roughly 2/3 of physical weight) with our Fluidampr. Due to the internal inertia ring being suspended when excited by torsional vibration, the crankshaft only feels 2/3 weight of the damper. I personally travel with our engineering team to perform TVA (Torsional Vibration Analysis) with OEM's and to validate any new catalog products. In every test we have performed, whether it be OE, aftermarket or lightweight pulleys, the heavier damper puts up the highest HP and Torque numbers; the damper doesn't make power but frees up lost power due to parasitic losses caused by vibration. All Fluidampr listings on our website and catalog show the rotating weight in parenthesis next to the physical weight. Unfortunately, every application is a little different so it is hard to tie hard numbers. In most cases there is a gain from 2-15 h.p.
Mike you’re the man! Just out of curiosity, how do they know which frequencies to attenuate on an unknown application? Do they use Modal Analysis or Orbital Plotting to predict? Or do they do experimental testing on the crankshaft? Also have they quantified how many dB of attentuation on the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics compared to a stock unit? Curious, which spectrum analyzer do they use?
Modal analysis, I did an article about it on MotoIQ
Cool.
The only engine I know that doesn't need a harmonic balancer are rotary engines because they don't turn reciprocating motion into rotational motion like a piston engine, they are always rotational motion. 👍🤙 Great video guys, keep up the great work 🤘
A flat six engine would like a word 😃
@@frederickcook87 Ahh, I've never really worked on any flat 6's, be it Porsche or Subaru. Thanks for the lesson.
Motorcycles?
@@Blanchy10 Thats why i said "engine I know", ive never worked on any motorcycles. 🤙
@@frederickcook87 straight six. Not flat.
Does Fluidamper make applications for the port injected Ford/Mazda Duratecs 2.0/2.3 ('03-'12)?
They used to, they may restart.
Where were you when GM built the LS2??
i want one for my 1.5L yaris now.
Great video.
Like mentioned in the video, it's not a sexy part. People still tend to focus on the bling rather than function.
love my fluidampr on the jz
Do you have to service the fluidampr?
no its good to go, they said it in this video.
You’re saying this could go on my 2012 toyota camry se? Granted, it’s very expensive to replace that, but, it’ll provide vibration protection on that car. Went to their website. What type of modifications (special kit) does it need to make it work?
if they have an application, yes
Are y'all still gonna do a video on the 1GR-FE motor?
Yes
Patiently waiting, much appreciated...yall are the only source to trust!
This is really helpful. I was about to install a lightweight damper that I've had laying around, but that isn't happening. I'll be sticking with my stock damper until I buy myself a fluidampr.
I have a light weight Unorthodox Racing pulley from years and years ago --screw it I am using it lol
If your power isnt really high and your engine has a strong bottom end its ok.
@@davegt27I run an Unorthodox Racing under drive pulley on my 2K Maxima for 20 years now and not a single issue! Also, I have a bunch of bolt on and she is peppy as heck, and enough to put a scare on a lot of newer cars!
My experience with dampers is to not drop one onto your toe when removing them.
I dropped a whole motor off a cherry picker and it landed on the balancer. Don't do that, doesn't like it. Snapped the snout off the crank lol
Is there any benefit to the fluid damper brand vs the ATI for k24 use? It appears ATI version is slightly cheaper. Also, is this just a bolt on affair?
We talked about the differences in the video.
I didn't know Ray Zalinsky from Tommy Boy was your guest today.
I wish they'd develop a product for the ND Miata.
I wish Fluiddampr would make a harmonic balancer for the SR20DET :( I think for my usage 350 to 400ish hp stock OEM balancer should be ok.
We do too!
I know & my theory was that a Fluid Damper is what 1 particular older "Odd-Fire" engine needed & found an old SAE paper that confirmed it but they decided not to design it probably due to cost.
But Fluid Damper dyno analysis is $10k + R&D costs for a custom made damper. I think it would be so exciting what the OEM's left on the table back in the day!
Or if you buy something like 50 they will do it for you if you think the market is big enough.
They said 100 buy in. I think it would be the highest gains of any motor. But, the market has been brainwashed by a few amateurish R&D companies, that actually have done some good work in other areas to improve this car. However 1 was at SEMA who created an entire R&D improvement version of this classic's original power train & suspension ect, for only $25Ok ! They may have done all or some of my ideas....I bet there's more NDA's than D.O.D. contracts at the Pentagon! 🤨
It would be great to bring affordable engine upgrades to these dire enthusiasts.......
I didn't know that many people were interested in those old Buicks. I know nothing about them.
@@motoiq "Close, but no "Cohiba" for you! LoL🤣 Not even a "Cubano Romeo y Julieta"!
We need to talk some day soon!🤫
What do you torque your fluidamper to on a 2015+ wrx sti ?
Same as oem
Yeah you and your ebay LS 😂 had me dead!
Two questions.. Would it benefit my chevy 8.1?
Do you make it for a chevy '02 8.1 Vortec?
I am pretty sure Fluidampr has those applications.
Do motorcycles have these vibration dampers?
I've seen a few moderns superbikes snap cranks.
Some do.
Dame! I want to get a fluid damper for my k swap now. My poor walleeeeeta 😢