What is the best barrel length?
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Finally answering the number one question I get asked.
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0:00 Intro
1:13 Use the Chapters
1:27 Thanks to those helped
2:32 How we conducted the test
4:15 Velocity
6:45 Accuracy
10:32 Elevation Drop
15:58 Maneuverability
20:27 Felt Recoil
23:03 Caveats
26:09 My recommendation
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Let me suggest a few military requirements that may help pick a better rifle.
Velocity = ability to defeat armor
Specifically you need to achieve approximately 2900 or more feet per second to aquire the ability to defeat said armor. Most SBR rifle lengths do not achieve this velocity regardless of barrel or ammunition choices. And the reality is that even with 16,18, and 20 inch rifle lengths the distances to which you can realisticly maintain that armor piercing capability will be closer to 200 to 300 meters maximum distance. The 1,000 meter armor defeating dream requires that you upgrade from the industry standard 5.56mm chambering to something significantly larger.
12.5 minimum length = reliability
If armor is not a concern then in theory you should choose the shortest possible length. However, anything less than 10.5 is generally considered less than totally reliable and the increase in dwell time from 10.5 to 12.5 drastically improves long term reliability.
Gas system = second round shot placement.
Decades of military engagements show that landing effective subsequent shots is vital to actually eliminating a threat. At CQB distances, such as inside a room, you can tolerate excessive recoil from short gas systems. As that distance increases the tolerance shortens and the the rifle length gas system simply out performs it's shorter competition. Don't take my word for it...test for youself.
Flash signature = survivability
This can be achieved with SBR length barrels. Unfortunately this requires adding a suppressor/silencer and or non standard ammunition choices. Meanwhile 16,18, and 20 inch barrels almost completely burn all of the powder from standard 55, 62, 77 grain bullets and only need a relatively cheap flash suppressor to reduce your signature.
There are other issues...efecive range for making hits vs effective range for making kills; flat trajectory increases with barrel length; barrel length/velocity effect on windage, barrel length/velocity effect on actual energy deposited on target at distance; barrel length effect on heat sink and resulting accuracy loss; etc. The list goes on. Hope this gives you some food for thought. Would love for you to do a follow-up on this episode.
Hope this helps,
Phil
This!
@@Marc-kq6vz SOCOM has used a variety of barrel lengths. I have seen 10.5, 11.5, and 12.5 SBR's in certain circumstances. It's best you realize these are specialty tools. Thier general purpose rifle length is actually a 14.5 carbine. And yes, they have plenty of tools. The video, however, would seem to be in regards to the "one" best length. You may not have the same luxury of a whole team armed with sniper rifles, sbrs, machine guns, etc. You may want to consider a longer length that gives you as many capabilities as possible.
@@Marc-kq6vz I doubt it. They have to use specialized weapons and ammo made by in house gunsmiths. SBR 5.56 is STUPID
@Chano Leyva Too much to explain. I'll sum up...
I have a "PhD " in this subject...I am a combat veteran with 20 years service and multiple tours of duty.
Level 4 is far from being the "standard " issue body armor. Even most Police aren't issued level 3.
6.8 is a replacement round for 7.62. Think M80 ball. 5.56mm can and will penetrate more readily than both of the above.
Yes, warfare is changing.
Yes, you will likely see an increase in head and pelvic shot/injuries.
No, head/pelvic shots are not a workable replacement for center mass shot placement. There are legal and practical issues with this method.
At the end of the day you have to deal with the armor penetration isue. Sub 16 inch simply doesn't offer the practical capability needed.
Rifles offer capability to engage and defeat armor and can be used for CQB with training. SBRs offer great CQB characteristics but cannot generate the velocity to defeat armor. Thus the SBR will continue to be a "specially" tool. That makes it a great tool... but, not the "one".
@@MackTheGovnah yes SOCOM used the 10.3 and through testing have gone up to longer barrel lengths with the MK18.
I prefer the 29” mosin nagant barrel. Excellent for CQB, clearing rooms, and other tactical duties.
Sawed off mosin for CQB
@@SwiperTheeFox14 no, the longer barrel actually is better for CQB. It stikes fear into the eyes of the enemy. And the cherry on top is the match grade, 10 pound, 6 stage trigger. Exquisite precision rifle.
@@bcjdwbiernfjherwfbowfib good point 🤣🤣🤣
@@SwiperTheeFox14 I know. I use it in precision match competitions, normally 2 mile shots with irons. I have to consider the curveature of the earth. Makes custom precision guns with nightforce scopes look like junk.
It’ll clear the room but not the doorway 😂
I swear to god if I hear "reach out and touch" one more time
Good thing you can’t see my dms
@@jimmybrodriguez lol
Turn your ears off 🤷🏽♂️
Dont make me reach out and touch this comment
Reach out and touch
These long testing-based videos are my favorite guntuber content. Thanks!
Fantastic video! Thanks for putting the time in on this.
A Big pro to going with 13.7/13.9 over something shorter is you can use a full length 13" rail.
Really great information. Thankyou for the rundown!
Great and in-depth video brother! Keep doin you!
I’ve been running a 12.5 for 2.5 years for the exact reason stated. It was the smallest I could go while maintaining lethality at range but not sacrificing maneuverability. It has been and will be my go to war *insert crazy end of the world whatever scenario here* do it all rifle!
My go to war rifle has a 20 inch barrel. Velocity is key with 5.56 and 20 inch is what it was designed around, especially with m193.
@@echosr2139 , I really helps with those waskely wabbits, huh?
Been waiting for a BCM 12.5 upper for like a year now. They barely make them.
@@musicman1eanda I see them a lot at Freedom Trading (I think that's the name) or call Neil at 2A Fulfillment as he might be able to help.
@@musicman1eanda You just missed a restock like two weeks ago. They had the Kino configuration 12.5 when I just happened to be looking on the site. I’d look at Roscoe 12.5 uppers as well if you get impatient. Happy hunting
One note on the elevation drop chart. Because the chart axis formatting is measured in inches and goes from 0 - 1100 elevation, the difference between the loads/barrels appears slight within 500 yards when in fact it is probably more substantial than you think. A difference of 10" to 12" won't look significant on that chart but that would put you well outside an A-zone. We see that spread between 16" and 10.5" barrels on your chart beginning at 250-350 yards. Something to consider. Great work and well thought out methodology. Quite thorough and beneficial...excellent work as always, brother!
Very well presented. Really enjoyed the video
Appreciate it
I like the 13.9 pinned and welded to 16 to avoid the useless ATF laws. Best overall as far as ballistics and mobility combined.
yea 13.7 (usually midlength gas) is one of my favorites but also 18' shoots stupidly soft with rifle length gas system
So dumb, your over all length is still the same and you lose a bit of velocity. Like it’s fucking pointless.
Thanks for working on this. Intelligent approach.
A lot of work went into this video, and I appreciate it!
I'll take anything 10.3" to 18". Pros and cons to every barrel length. Velocity is king when it comes to the 5.56. Clearing homes and building makes shorter barrel lengths ideal. I typically train with a 14.5"-16" just because the NFA makes it easier to work around for the accessories I like to run. Ammo actually makes a big difference but I stack M855 deep because it's a generally good round that doesn't do anything great but you can't beat the now $0.50 a round as opposed to better 77 grain MK262 which costs $2 a round. I'd rather put 4 rounds down range in training per 1 round anyway. I know ballistics, drops and general use for that round and grain weight. I do utilize some 50 grain Vmax for other applications but don't train as much with it or zero my weapons for that round. I still train with it and like the complete and instant energy dump of that cartridge for certain applications. Still way cheaper than MK262 at $0.59-$0.67 a round at current prices.
Great analysis. Urban and home defense 12.5 to 10.3. Rural 12.5 to 20. If the individual has a can 11.5 to 13.7 would be a happy medium for all situations.
Why do you like the 62 green tip?. The 193/55gr will fragment, tumble, alligator death roll more than the 62. The “penetrator” sounds good until you break it down. The only thing it’s better at penetrating is the side of a Russian helmet at something like 400 yards, I forgot exact distance. Day after day gun vs gun you see the 55 gr more accurate because during manufacturing, getting the steel point in the bullet completely true is very hard to do. Most green tip rounds are unbalanced and have a washing machine jumping across the trailer house affect. The 55 is more likely to penetrate body armor at normal distance because of the extra speed. The only place where I’ve seen the 62 shine is shooting through a car door or equivalent at 2-300 yards. Since we can buy and use whatever ammo we want I would consider a 75/77 hpbt loading or a bonded bullet like the Speer. I use 55/62 to practice but even then if given a choice I grab the 55/193.
@@heatherkelley8115 eh ball ammo, 77 grain otm, 75 grain, 69 grain... velocities are what make the round tumble. As long as your training with the type of ammo you utilize is really what matters.
I run 62 grain M855 because it's full powered 5.56. It's inexpensive at my cost $0.50 a round for name brand green tips. Most people today are taking cover, utilizing cover and even wearing body armor now. M855 isn't great at anything but it does ok at a lot.
If I could afford to run Gucci-er ammo I would.
@@heatherkelley8115 Depends on what manufacturer makes the 62 grain. Plus it depends on what twist rate the barrel is. 62 grain to 77 grain is going to be more accurate than 55 grain in 1/7 twist. There's also 62 grain 5.56 without the steel penetrator.
@@MF-Rell I agree on the non penetrator 62s but that can be hard to fine, I would run a Speer gold dot. If you don’t have a 1:7 or 1:8, if you do I like the heavy hpbt. This is Bruce don’t know how names got swapped
Great work!
great stuff! What ballistic data calculator did you use for this testing?
Hey more on the suppressed issue Pws with their piston 11.85 or D.I upper? If D.I what you recommend?
I think the biggest take away from this video should be, "don't overthink it". There is no perfect do-all barrel length, every length has trade-offs. So buy multiple ;)
Ding ding ding! Each build has a different use and purpose! Also a great reason (excuse) to buy more parts!
We stuck with one brand, Noveske. Obviously money was absolutely no issue.
You went through all that to recommend a 10.5? At least an 11.5 lol. The least effective rifle length is not what will work for most people. IT's type casting yourself into scenarios you don't have experience with. I promise you, the second you leave a structure if it's a serious situation, the last thing you would want is a 10.5. Accuracy and effectiveness is so much better out of a 16" or a 14.5".
Aren’t you the guy who backed down from Lucas and took down your videos?
@@DPBida I took 1 video down but it's around somewhere if you want to look for it. I didn't go anywhere and I'm easy to find.
Pends on your situation. A 10.5 with 77 otm, still has the energy of a 9mm 147 grain HST At 500 yards. As long as you know your holds and practice, it can be done.
I personally run Mk18s and building a 12.5 to test. I don’t see myself getting into 300+ yard firefights in the civilian world.
@@ACGBLR My street in line of sight goes to 600 yards until the bend. A city block can be 500 yards or more. The main road or if someone has an elevated position can be easily 500-700 yards. Or greater. Knee capping yourself with a 10.5 isn't the move. I own a 10.5 LMT MRP personally, I like it for indoor work sure. But outdoors? Nope. 11.5's out to 300 gets dicey sometimes, pushing to 500 is a chore. Meanwhile you can slap out to 500 all day long with a 14.5 or a 16".....
@@navyman8903 how would you know someone is a threat at 100+ yards? If you are being shot at farther distances than that. You screwed up and need other training besides just shooting.
Exellent video. I think a critical factor that needs more discussion is terminal ballistics. Generally more velocity on impact is key but there is a bit more to it than just that. I'd love a follow up video diving deep into that.
Great video! Things I consider that I understand you don't need to; 1. Dealing with the ATF, i.e. Braces leagal or not... today! 2. The extra wear and parts breakage from carbine length gas tubes. 3. Wringing the most out of cheap ammo if thats all I have available. and 4. Ooops I made a wrong choice regarding my muzzle device and I pinned and welded. But again thank you for the clearly large amount of effort you put into this video
Are the bcm 14.5 MK2 barrels good?
Tactical Hive did test 11.5". , 14.5" , 16" , 20". Conclusion 14.5" moving slower stayed intact allowing deeper penatration, the 16 and 20 moving faster fragmented sooner causing more damage but less penatration. However the 11.5 didn't have enough speed nor did it frag as much , it was the least affective. ( This test was not for accuracy, only penatration and frag)
But with what bullet weight?
Good morning was there mention of the twist rate for the barrels used? My understanding suggests that twist rate influences grain weight used.
i think you covered the vast amount of variables pretty well. One thing I take into consideration (for 16" guns) is that many BDC reticles are set for 16" barrels. Of course BDC is specific to various calibers, but the point still stands and is worth taking into account for the people who want BDC capability
You will most likely need to true your bdc data with whatever barrel you choose.
@@jimmybrodriguez true. i have been lucky that i pretty much just run 62 gr Hornady Frontier 5.56 in my 20" MDRx bullpup, which works perfectly (both in Strelok and in practice) with the BDC on my Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10x that's made for a 16" barrel shooting M193
@@jimmybrodriguez same video BUT 18'' vs. 20''.
Good data. Thanks!
Would still love to see a test with 18”, 18.5” and 20” barrels. I know everyone loves the thought of this “CQB” stuff, but it’s nice to have the legs to stretch it if needed.
Personally, If I am going to be in a gunfight, I’d rather be further away with some glass and concealment.
CQB is a game of Russian roulette. Sooner or later your number comes up. It’s great to train and get proficient at should the day come, but foolish to romanticize.
If you're gonna go long, just step up the cartridge. You're nickel and diming yourself realistically past 16" with 5.56 because once you start getting longer there are other cartridges that do what 5.56 does better at distance. 6.5 grendel, 6 arc, 6 max, heck even .308 at that point.
11.5 with a can is good for the average person from 0-250 yds. 18" 1-9 twist is my preferred for a long range 556. Depends on what you intend to do with it.
11.5 will not be reliably lethal past 100 yards, let alone 250. Being able to punch a hole in paper and neutralizing a combatant are very different
@@sterlingcampbell2116 so do you keep fighting after get 1 oder 2 hits in the torso or stomach from 200y with a 11.5?
With all this “reach out and touch” Jake from 1911 syndicate will probably like this video a lot
Don't tempt me with a good time
Any of you have experience with a 12.5” mid-length? I’m going with either that or carbine length for my next build. Thanks!
Look into the IWI Zion 15 12.5” rifle/pistol. It has a mid-length gas system and is affordably priced - it’s a good way to try it out without breaking the bank.
LMT SPECWAR for the win…
The beauty of the USA is that we can have ANY and ALL lengths we want. You can and SHOULD go through each of these lengths and determine what’s best for you. For me, I have each of these and have each for different reasons. These are tools, think of your safe as a extremely heavy toolbox.
If I’m dancing around NFA rules, I’ll go 11.5 carbine gas with a short flash hider. Still short and handles great with reasonable handguard real estate.
Otherwise, I’ll take a p/w lightweight 14.5 mid-gas with extended A2 type muzzle device. Excellent handling even compared to a full 16” barrel.
Reliability in adverse conditions and extreme temperatures is paramount.
Energy on target is always my concern when it comes to defensive shooting. If it hits the target I want a result. That's why for my 10" build I ditched 5.56 for 7.62x39. Cheaper to shoot AND more energy on target than 16" 5.56
I have a 10 in polish AK pistol for this reason.
Good call.
A most excellent, excellent review and attention to detail. Thank you kindly for taking the time. I wish you would do a review on the new Q Honey Badger 556 10". Peace
The only thing I noticed that may have had an impact on the times for the 12.5 as far as maneuverability was it looked from the videos to have a laser mounted on the end. Could this have possibly impacted the speed in which you were able to drive the gun? Just a thought
For me, I went with a 13.9 as a GPR because it gets you to a mid-length gas, and has a short-ish dwell time making it great for suppressed/ unsuppressed use. The pin and weld option is just an added bonus if you want. The increased dwell time on a 12.5/ carbine gas is nice but may be more difficult to tune if using a silencer.
Quick question, I just bought a 13.9 upper, will a Surefire CTN make it 16’? Thank you
@@leroyb1876 the regular open warcomp and 3prong flash hider will work. The closed tined I don’t believe is long enough
Fantastic video! Im getting rid of a "cheaper" 16" S&W. I am going to upgrade to a more premium upper and lower. Ive been watching videos to find out the difference between 14.5 and 16 because that seems to be the sweet spot for higher quality uppers. This video put a nail on the head with what my thoughts were about this topic.
Thank you 😊
CRITERION CORE 12.5 will always be my favorite barrel/Length .
Since I live on the border of 3 states and shoot in all 3 stages . Owning SBR does not make any sense to me . AR Pistol is very practical and since they will be banned next month that leaves me with having to go to the next best thing . That is Centurion 13.7" MIDWEIGHT HF with PW SOLGW KEYMO NOX Flash Hider.
I used Colt MK18 for 10 years and will always have spot in my rotation . I've shot more rounds through that MK18 than all others combined .
You’re a stronger man than me jimmy lol I can’t with these comments. Everyone thinks they’re special forces. Solid video and solid recommends. Keep up the good work.
My 2¢ is; I’ve shot 10.5 ar15’s at dusk and unless you have a silencer to kill the muzzle blast I will pass. It is a beach ball sized fireball with every shot. Unless you can afford to put a can on the gun don’t go less than 14.5” as anything shorter still has unburnt gun powered when the bullet leaves the barrel.
Yo what can should I throw on my 10.5 Gen 4 shorty? Anything you'd recommend for it to make it good with a can?
Can’t ever go wrong with a sandman.
Tall ppl if youre looking for a barrel length go into the store and hold the rifles with different barrel lengths. I'm 6'7" and anything from 10.5-12.5 felt really tiny. The 14.5 for me felt ideal. I could operate it in CQB situations cause my arms hold the gun out towards the end of the barrel anyway plus I get the velocity of a longer barrel.
Agree on being taller i shot 9” 10.3 and they felt small
I just got 11.8 Pws and I love it probably as short as I wanna go
With the "Swang that thang" comparison. Do you think the 10.5 and 16in's being the fastest had anything to do with familiarity outside of the reasons you specified? I have some bias with my own experiences but those two lengths seem(ed) to dominate the industry for awhile before the increase in popularity of SBR's and pin and welds.
Improvement in shooter performance by round three would be my first thought. Then the issue of "leverage" combined with the longer barrel length allowing faster "swing" can very much impact speed to get on target.
Just my 2 cents.
For me, it really depends on what I’m doing with the rifle and what optic I’m using. I’m lucky enough to have several AR’s and a few separate uppers. My 14.5” BCM I have an EOTECH and magnifier. On my 1-6x LPVO upper I run a 16” Faxon gunner .223 Wylde match barrel. On my scoped SPR rifle I use a 18” BCM barrel. On my Aimpoint only optic home defense gun, I run a 11.5” BCM barrel. A great point you make is that every barrel is unique and if you want maximum accuracy, you have to test different ammo. However, rifle purpose trumps that a bit for me because my 11.5” shoots 62gr slightly better, I use 77gr because it’s a home defense gun and I like the ballistics of 77gr more than shooting 1” better at 100yrds.
The beauty of the AR platform is that you can have a variety of different uppers set up with different barrel lengths and proper optics to meet the different use cases. No FFL required and at a relatively low cost too.
Of course, one problem is training to proficiency for each upper setup and scenario
wouldnt terminal velocity and balistics play a factor? i always heard the 556 needs speed for lethality, hence the longer barrels.
That’s why they started developing the 300blk to begin with… bc SF/USNS etc wanted something they could clear structures with that was more maneuverable(shorter barrel), could be suppressed, but still had the lethality and penetrating capabilities … 5.56 ballistics drop off really quick if you go shorter than 14.5.. and it’s almost impossible to suppress.. even in a 16” barrel. It just loses all of the qualities that make it a great cartridge to begin with…
Are you sure that the barrel twist rate was the same for each barrel?
Did anyone hear what twist the barrels were?
What barrel size do you all prefer?
Just curious. Barrel size, barrel twist and even muzzle device.
10.5 house to house or vehicle security detail
11.5-12.5 same as above but also urban combat
14.5-16 general purpose
18-22 DMR
Civvies made me scared of longer barrels. I don't really notice the weight difference between an M4 and M16 when carrying. My 6 lb 16.5 Airsoft isn't noticeabley different from the 20" 8 lb M16 and 6 lb 14.5 M4. All feel the same after 4 hours rucking. I can always hump more weight, chop her shorter over the shoulder, and be ergonomic on corners. My concern from experience is: there's nothing I can do for range. I outshoot 4-8 MOA guns I get issued. Range and power are something an M4 just doesn't have. The 77gr OTMs were nice, but they also outshot the barrel. The extra accuracy doesn't help at 500. More consistant, but not missing chests at 500. My goal is to push my 5.56 to 1 klick. For that I'm looking at a 26" and 77 gr OTMs and hoping they don't burn all their propellant before exiting. If 77 grs are too slow, I'll go to hand loading to get that consistency I've heard about, save some cents per round, and add some extra propellant.
but will it kill? Not fragging past 50yds is the problem with 10.3s. That's fucking pathetic. Compared to 300 for 20." If anyone has any clue what some 77 gr frag range or velocities are I'd appreciate it if you could find anything for 26"
I run 11.5 and appreciate it, I would really like 12.5 from noveske
hopefully in the near future. Its been fun to run so far
Same for me I run an 11.5 and want to get a 12.5. My 10.3 is a 300blk.
I’ll tell you, I carried a 10.5 in Afghanistan and that thing was about worthless past 300 meters outside the city. 14.5 would be my go to length. Suppressed it’s a bit of a musket, yes. The 10.5 is much more maneuverable, and still a decent length even suppressed. However the 10.5s run dirty and hard as eff. The 14.5 suppressed runs much nicer and the ability to actually run the gun all around is what I suggest. “Cqc” with a 14.5 suppressed isn’t ideal, but a 10.5 only gets you in the door. Getting engaged outside of the house/courtyard/compound the 10.5 really just isn’t it. They also heat up much faster than the 14.5 suppressed. For shorter dudes like yourself maybe showing some bias in the 14.5 realm because it is a longer bang stick especially suppressed. However like I said outside that 300 meter range a 14.5 or an 18 inch ape was the way to go for most guys overseas, lots of shorter guys carried them to so you can do it. Hope my input helps you, awesome job on the research though. Also 77gr SMKs mk262 is king, the 62s just couldn’t hold accuracy well enough with the twist rates of our rifles. The 77s were much more stable and much more accurate.
Also this coming from a guy who first used an M16a4. 20” barrel. We did cqc with those back when. 14.5 is the best all around length.
The problem here is the mentality of my rifle having to do everything perfectly. People want a short, ultra light, long-distance snippet setup that can also be used for CQB or DMR. Good luck 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👍
Anything under 16" have a legal complication. So I'll stick to 16" or 18" and work your set up around that. Stop splitting hairs, unless you train like crazy because you compete or your life depends on it because its working tool you'll be perfectly fine. 😉
I'm rocking an AK-102 (12.5") with the OSS 556k (5.5") so it handles exactly like a 18" rifle.
I have a 12.5 and a 16. Love ‘em both.
Love the video. Personally I prefer the 18-20” barrels though.
I think you should have 2 rifles. 12.5 and 18inch Spr
The thing left out of this conversation is how bullets perform terminal out of different lengths. Anything less than rifle length has trouble getting the 5.56 to get up speed to Spauld.
@@EdwardOrnelas This is what I've done. I have a 13.9" that is my general usage rifle, and an 18" DMR build.
@@oliverallen5324 M4 14.5" barrel average with M855 62gr was 2920fps mv per Aberdeen huge data testing. Everyone I've seen shot with it from 1996-2003 was either killed or suffered traumatic avulsions. Avulsions are when meat is torn from bone and ripped open in massive gashes, with lots of blood loss.
You can surpass the 20" downrange using higher BC in the shorter guns, but the differences aren't as dramatic as proponents of 20" often claim.
@@EdwardOrnelas 12" Grendel smokes 20" 5.56, with Grendel running lower chamber pressure. Better terminal performance across the board from CQB to 1100yds, slightly more recoil if shooting over 95gr. 95gr is very light recoiling. You can have better CQB and LR performance without going to a long barrel.
This is gonna make the 12.5 gang act a fool. That new Rosco barrel with the patrol length gas system seems to be the new ticket.
TBH we've already been acting a fool
@@jimmybrodriguez these non 12.5 (mid) guys just don’t understand
Never heard of a patrol length gas system
@@maviskilpatrick7592 it’s in between carbine and midlength. Believe it’s the K9 barrel. Sage Dynamics collab with Rosco
@@jimmybrodriguez Bro you broke r/AR15. It's hilarious.
terminal ballistic factors such as armor penetration (level 3A and level 3) and soft tissue fragmentation are more reasons to consider the longer barrels as well, assuming your use-case is shtf or high level home defense.
M855 will smoke a lot of that armor, as will Barnes and other solids.
Velocity is so damn key for me, especially with rounds like M193 and bonded softpoints. I've become very comfortable with the 16" platform for an all around build. Currently working on a light profile midlength 14.5". Aero lower and BCM upper that's already been pin and welded. Shopping for the perfect BCG / CH / Buffer weight & spring. Prob going to go with a sprinco red with some sort of adjustable buffer weight.
Pro Tip - BCM now manufactures all A5 components. Springs, buffers and receiver extensions. A5 spec is the shit.
@@smith8124 What is A5?
I switched to the A5 buffer system in my mid length 12.5” and I fuckin love it man… Used to run the Geissele Super 42 & H1 carbine buffer, but when I got my SBR tax stamp and threw a Gen 2 Magpul UBR stock on my gun, I read that I could use a standard carbine buffer system in it with the included spacer, or I could take full advantage of the stock and run the A5. After a CZcams search on the subject I watched a video from Brownell’s with Mike Mihalski of SOLGW talking about the A5 system and I immediately ordered the necessary spring and buffer and it’s been a completely different (much improved) gun ever since.
@@evanacey1414 What's necessary to run the A5 system? Currently have a carbine length upper I'm running but thinking of getting a mid length 16" barrel to swap onto my lower. Does the buffer tube need to be longer / bigger to accommodate the A5 system?
If velocity is Key then try Blackstone Arms ARP barrels(5R rifling), they are 60-90fps faster than 6 groove barrels. Mine is 121fps faster than my BCM.
Great video, I think this is a great resource to share with folks who continually ask this question.
Edit: I missed the recoil section.
The only items I think are worth addressing that were not included are recoil and parts wear.
Recoil is going to be largely dependent on gassing, buffer weight and spring. But I definitely have found I prefer midlength guns, because they’re a bit gentler than my carbine length guns. Perhaps running some drills that track that performance, like a 10-10-10 or bill drill would be beneficial. At the end of the day though, 5.56 doesn’t recoil very much and training will make the difference.
As for parts wear, carbine length guns are going to be harder on your BCG and barrel, potentially wearing quicker. I think the MK18 has a service life of 10k-ish rounds before needing a change. None of this is hard a fast, but it’s worth considering if you’re choosing a “end of the world”/“shit hit the fan” gun.
There is a whole section on recoil. Also yes wear is a factor but there are too many variables with wear including how you maintain your guns, ammo, suppressed vs unsuppressed, etc
@@jimmybrodriguez ahh, I must have missed that, my apologies. Was driving and listening!
What was the barrel twist rate of the barrels used for this test? If it was 1/7, that could impact the accuracy of 55 grain a lot since it’s going to potentially over-stabilize that grain weight, especially if it’s 55 grain M193. 1/8 or 1/9 twist rates play much better with 55 grain FMJ than 1/7.
Yea....wondering as well. Twist in my experience will impact accuracy far more than length in a given grain
No such thing as overstabilized.
What part of Texas are you doing th training
T2 as an off-set backup for EXPS3? That’s the definition of showing off 😂
On topic: I’ve read and seen enough tests to then go and buy a 12.5. Couldn’t be more happier.
Backup for when the Eotech battery dies
It was also part of the testing I did for the recent offset dot video I did lol.
12.5 mid continues to be my favorite for my use as well, but I would like another 10.5
@@davidb9323 I know what it's allegedly for. But still, it's a bit of a flex. Most would use a cheaper MRD like Holosun.
@@jimmybrodriguez Yea, shooting MK18 has irrefutable cool factor to itself. But, it's way too expensive to buy here to justify a shorter DI AR that my current 12.5 Antreg piston easily outperforms. The MK18 is damn cute and light though lol
Will you do a vid on the Noveske 12.5?
Yes in the very near future
Group size reflects precision, bulks eye hits on what the rifle is zeroed to reflects accuracy, e.g., a tight group 4" to one side or the other of the zero point represents a precise relatively inaccurate group, of course the target distance comes into play making the group spread and poi shift larger the farther the target is away from the shooter.
12.5 triarc is what I’m running and I love it. Vortex Gen II 1-6 on a unity mount, t2 on a offset unity mount, DBAL, modlite and surefire 5.56 RC2. Runs like a dream 👍🏽
I'm running a similar setup. 12.5 triarc, unity aimpoint mount.
If you run a DBAL I assume you shoot under nods a fair amount.. If so, why are you using an LPVO and an offset red dot on your night fighting gun?
@@evanacey1414 I just recently switched to the razor 1-6. I left the DBAL on and never took it off for some reason. I’m usually shooting my other triarc at night with a T2 on a unity
10.5”, 14.5”, 16”, 18” cuz those are the ones I own I like them all, and choose the right one for the given application!!! 😁😁😁😍😍😍
if you can have only 1 for a do all.. id stay around 16-18. gives you all the speed and range you could need. while being short enough thats you can get in and out of cars ok.
🎯
As someone who likes to work on these, I hate 10.5" in 5.56 purely because of the lack of powder burn in the pressure curve and the increased parts wear and violent recoil it brings with it. If you want short, go 11" if always suppressed, and 12+ for general purpose use. If you like super shorty's, get .300 blk in an 8" or 10". It'll have better burn with more energy and not be so violent on parts. Also 12" 6.5 grendel, 6 arc, and 6 max look spicier every day.
Great chart,. I copied that for reference, this is one of the best videos I've seen on form and function, great work Guy's
I like the video. We did some of these tests with some of our builds. Personally I found the 16 to fit me. I did get to watch this all the way through. But I didn’t see you cover energy on target. We found the barrel length to play a major factor in the. We also found this to greatly effect how the bullet performs. But yes great video.
I mention it at 14:04
why run an offset red dot with an eotech in the maneuverability test?
I thought that was odd too unless he's swapping optics. Offset has its place but only with LPVO's & a few other formats like acogs.
Was also part of testing for the video I did recently on offset dots. Full explanation there
Not that anyone asked, but here’s my opinion: if mostly home defense or close quarter use 11.5”, everything else use anything over 14.5”. Simple.
Worth noting x-tac is on the slower side for m193. Winchester Q3131 & IMI m193 are the fastest 55gr I've seen tested. A lot of "m193" is only m193 in name only. Sometimes ammo matters more than barrel length.
Whole section addressing the importance of ammo in the video. Also, 5.56 vs .223 factors into ammo velocity
Very true! IMI is usually my go to choice for M193 but I've been very impressed with both armscor & ppu versions of M193 from my 16". I wish imi still loaded to their original standards though... The average velocity table he shows is wayyyy off too. I think he's tested different grain weights because there's no way in hell both federal & imi M193 are that far below 3k out of a 16". Those numbers are severely off....
The chart and video both state that the federal is 62gr and the imi is 77gr. Only the tac is m193
@@jimmybrodriguez Federal Fusion MSR is .223 and quite fast.
Yup. Real M193 from 12.5" will exceed UMC 55gr from 16".
This is the best video you have made and probably the best barrel length video I have watched in years on CZcams. You guys used concrete evidence for the muzzle velocity. Did you guys use stainless steel or their CHF barrels? I ask because some guys have shown the SS barrels can pick up extra velocity over a chrome lined barrel of the same length. John Noveske said his two most accurate barrels were his 18in SPR and his 12.5, the 12.5 was super rigid and gave it great accuracy.
For your argument of the 700 yd argument, I disagree because the extra velocity will help fight wind and you mentioned kinetic energy. Mystery lights ranch has some match that does run n gun to 1000yds. Yes, bullet choice makes a difference but having shot lots of 3gun matches there is a difference having watched guys try to run their 11.5 and not being able to spin the rifle spinner while guys running 16 and 18 in guns could do it easier. I personally have had a 14.5 not have enough juice to move a flasher target at 400+ yds. The RO's checked the steel, and it had a group on it but using 55gr vs 77gr it didn't have enough. If you guys could do a part 2 try doing a gel or Paul Harrell meat target because one round can behave differently out different barrels not just in terms of accuracy but also terminal ballistics. For example, the 73gr hornady critical defense won't penetrate 12in in gel and fragments greatly out of a 16in barrel but out of a 10.5 it gets more penetration because of a reduced velocity.
Your balance and maneuverability portion is awesome because you show it all side by side, I've used 14.5 and 11.5 with a can for work and you do notice differences between the two, but it's not impossible. In matches using an 18in gun with a brake I still have to move in and out of vehicles, barriers, and it can be done but it comes down to how you move with it and angles you take. Your points on leverage are good, different guns balance different based on different things we hang off our guns and it can change based on barrel profile and how the weight is distributed, and it depends on how the shooter is built.
For the 10.5 suggestion you are right that the average person won't shoot past 100yds, personal defense shootings are going to be fairly close in and most ranges people go to will be an indoor range with 25-50yd lanes and many outdoor ranges only go to 100yds. My disagreement for 10.5 comes down to the NFA and pistol brace laws. In my opinion (doesn't make it right or wrong just one person's thoughts) I would suggest 16 because it still balances well, can be very smooth, and from your data still is very maneuverable.
I don’t remember if you mentioned the twist rates of the barrels.
awesome info! prevented me from buying a 14.5"
Would have liked to see stats for 20 inch barrel because that's the barrel length I'm interested in right now.
What range was the accuracy test done at? Or did I completely miss that?
100 yards
@@jimmybrodriguez Thank you.
I would definitely be interested in a rifle course, I’ll keep a eye out for further info on it. Also planning on signing up for your Applied Pistol in September.
So I’m presuming the gas length system on the 12.5 is mid? Those velocities make me believe the dwell time is close to the 14.5
.300AAC version of this ?
Would be dope to see this same thing, and potentially doubled with subs and supers in each would be amazing, but I know that's quite the project.
I think Mr.GunsAndGear has one of those.
He does have a good one. But you know, more data, more better. Lol.
Also, Alabama Arsenal has a really good little series on the subject, 10/10 recommend.
DQ everything without a 1:5 twist. Anything between 5”-9” is 👌
Not shorter than 14,5", I'd like to keep the fingers on my left hand. And I am completely missing the reasoning for choosing the 10,5", especially as you state 16" is close in maneuverability and actually hits harder and farther with better accuracy?
Its just a better cqb option for those of us who have a suppressor. Sure I can swing a suppressed 16” gun through a building and be effective with it but its not fun.
But if I didn’t have a suppressor then I would go with a 16” every time because its just better.
@@stephenjerome7793 Sure that is an option, but suppression was barely discussed here. And in if we go suppressed a 14,5" + suppressor would be about a 16" and give better suppression than a 10,5"(like ~4dB or 25% sound pressure less)... Point still is that the video maker does not even go into why he thinks 10,5" is the "best" choice.
because he was paid to say it
I’m sure you have a very good answer jimmy. And I bet it is “the one you train with”
did you say at what distance you were shooting?
Groups were shot at 100 yards
Across the board this was a good video!
I’ll stick to my 28” full choke
Suppressor recommendation for a 13.7? Currently debating between the YHM Turbo K/Keymo or a Sandman K. Open to anything though.
Looking for just a barrel or a stripped upper with pre-installed barrel?
@@TerminalM193 suppressor. My bad.
I just bought a turbo k recently. It’s a surprisingly quiet can for being ~5 inches and only 3 baffles. The tradeoff is gas, the gun really has to be tuned for suppressed use to make it pleasant.
No personal experience, but I would not recommend any .30 cal k cans for use on 5.56. From everything I’ve seen those types of cans (sandman k especially) just don’t restrict gas flow enough to result in good suppression on 5.56.
@@grantshurtz I’ve got a bootleg adjustable BCG & have thought about going to a BRT suppressed gas tube when the time comes.
turbo t2 with kurz. You can use the break it comes with. cost effective, tone is great, flash signature reduction is awesome.
mid length 12.5” w/ Vltor A5H2 Buffer System FOR LIFE!!
Personally I like 18" w/midlength gas, but I understand why some people prefer a shorter barrel.
Why not rifle length gas? Would be softer shooting
@@davidb9323 Midlength seems to be more reliable with ammo that isn't as hot as milspec M193. Just my personal experience.
My vote get a 12.5 and an 18 spr build. Rifle length Gas is super smooth.
Exactly what I did, with a 9” .300 upper to swap with the 12.5 lower.
12.5 Master Race.
That said, if I could find a SIONICS 11.5 ERGP that was in stock/available for sale, I’d switch to that (for my RDS only set up).
I would not say IMI is a "precision round" much better rounds out there for that, however IMI is cheaper and easier to get. I will say my 10.5 noveske 6.8spc is sub-moa and hits on C-zone steel at 500 yards is consistent
For those of us with High Performance Intermediate Cartridge short guns, it's funny to look back at people arguing about 20" vs 10.5" 5.56, isn't it?
10.5" 6.5G and 6.8 SPC exceed the muzzle energy of 20" 5.56 NATO.
I really enjoy the 12" Grendel suppressed.
I wish you had done an 11.5 also. Im curious. Alot of data that I've seen shows 12.5 and 11.5 performing about the same.
KAC 11.5” and Bren 2 16.5” ✅
What about 20" just for m193. I've heard that 3250 is important and that round is why I have my 20" Colt.
Ive honestly got a 10.5 pcc that could do most of the things I'd need where defense/reactionary force is concerned. Fmj or critical duty/v crown or whatever jhp is great for you.