To caption the obvious, when I say “best” it is my subjective opinion. 😁 Edit: as it’s been almost 2 years since this video has been made, I seem to have stuck my foot in my mouth. As suppressing them is exactly what I did. Surefire RC2. And they are awesome. Though less manageable as you would expect when shooting from a barricade or the inside of a car etc. But everything is a trade off. That said, 12.5 is still the GOAT 🐐 🙌🏻 I double down on this
My research and combat training has led me to view the 12.5 as the best overall length as well... self defense, urban close quarters combat, moderate distance battle field combat, operation from a vehicle, effective power or velocity, reliability with a mid length gas tube and sufficient dwell time... the 12.5 may not be the best at any of those, but can do all of those pretty well. I am looking to buy probably a Zion15 12.5" in 5.56 this week. Is the Socom barrel better than the government profile... I don't know. I don't know why 10.5" has become sort of the standard in ar pistols. I want to get into doing builds, but I'm not comfortable doing that without much help, so the Zion looks good to me so far.
@@MrBurdinekl honestly, the disparity between socom and government cuts on a 12.5 barrel are so negligible that it’s probably not worth noting and strictly preference. Barrel flex may play a part at 500 yards or more giving the government cut the advantage but a 12.5 isn’t a long range gun. Ultimately, it honestly boils down to aesthetic. What will make a difference is gas length.
I agree 100% 12.5 is the best barrel length on suppressed for a SBR. I have a 12.5 upper for mine and a 10.5 for my suppressed upper. I tried a suppressor on the 12.5 and it’s just not for me. That 2 inches less makes a pretty substantial weight savings. Plus with my home and property. The chances I’m shooting past 200 yards is almost 0 so a 10 five suppressed works perfectly for me. A lot of it just comes down to use case. That said, I’d say 10.3 is probably the shortest you should ever go in 5.56. I may make a 7.5” 300 blackout if I want to go shorter than 10.5”.
I can add some lesser known evidence to it, it's about the absolute longest barrel lengths that can shoot 55gn ammo effectively with 1:7 twist. People confuse that, it's not the twist rate alone, it's too long of a barrel AND too aggressive of a twist rate that's an issue. 12.5" 1:7 barrels get 55gn rounds right there up to 300k RPM, which is considered the maximum you should spin it up to. You figure out the RPM by (muzzle velocity in feet per second x 12 inches per foot) / (7 inches for one rotation) x (60 seconds per minute) = RPM. People think the 1:7 is the issue, but it's not, and the reason they see issues with accuracy is because they likely have a longer barrel and the bullets are pretty much on the cusp or actually disintegrating in flight. They basically melt and come apart in air from reaching such a high RPM in longer barrels.
The IWI Zion 12.5” pistol has a mid length gas system. It’s not as compact as some AR pistols out there, but as far as functionality I’d say it’s the ideal pistol variant. It’s also a quality firearm that runs under the $1000 mark. I picked one up today from Bud’s gun shop online with free shipping for $828.
Thanks for this one- yes, Great length/ for the 12.5 w/ 12” hand-guard, a carbon guard that can be trimmed to length, is great, or- running a blast can / which also moves some of the added percussive noise away from the shooter
Thank you for sharing your insights and thoughts. I'm still new to this stuff and appreciate your opinion. I carried an M16A-1 when I was in the Marines. I knew that rifle pretty well but the whole platform has grown since then. So much new stuff to learn. Thanks for posting.
We had M16A1s in my first unit, which I really liked. Multiple generations of AR-15s have emerged since then. I consider the M16A1 and Colt 653 carbine the capstones of the first Generation, which included the 1957 prototypes, 1959 Colt 601, 602, 603 (M16A1), USAF 604, 605 Carbine, 606 HBAR, 607 Commando, 608 USAF Survival Rifle, XM177, XM177E2, GAU-5A, GAU-5A/A, 656 Sniper, etc. M16A2 marked the entrance to the 2nd Generation which included the Colt 723, 727, and 733 carbines/commandos. M4 came from the 727, ushering in the 3rd Generation, which also included M16A4. Within M4/M4A1, you have SOPMOD Blocks. On the civilian side, it exploded with variations and trends, the biggest one being high performance intermediate cartridge and alternate chamberings, free-float as a dominant baseline, excellent triggers, billet receiver sets, endless furniture options, and all while a revolution in optics and electro-optical aiming devices has emerged. I think the quintessential example of all this is a 12" 6.5 Grendel AR-15, which can not only excel at HD, but hunting and long range shooting, all in the size of an MP5.
DITTO, USAF SP in the 1970's and 80's M16A1 was standard fare. Or A GUA5A/A. I also served as SP armorer, so intimate with cleaning and storage of same. S.E.A. to the Sandbox '73-'95
I have a 13.5" mid length gas .308 and it's still a tack driver for under 300yd hunting hog and deer. Easier to maneuver in thick brush. Suppressed, it's nice and comfortable. Especially with subsonic rounds. Using Winchester Power-Point Hog Special .308 Winchester 150-Grain, had a great sub 1 moa at 100 yds.
Cool video on 12.5’s. I am running a Forward Controls RHF4 11.5” Quad Hand-guard with a Ballistic Advantage 12.3” Hanson barrel. Absolutely perfect set up. You should check that out.
I favor 12.5's the most as well, although I prefer middy 12.5" builds. Aero's 10.2" handguards are just long enough to completely cover your gas block on a middy 12.5", protecting the block but giving you easy access if running adjustable blocks. I've put together a few 12.5" middy uppers so far with different barrels, and all have been solid. Very soft shooting and you only need H1 buffers with them.
Really 10.2 hand guard on an 12.5 love to see how that looks do you run into any issues with the h1 buffer with the ejection pattern? Or any sorts of malfunctions?
Just built a new Surpressor host upper with a 12.3 BA Hanson bbl and a 11.5 MI Combat Rail. Not a whole lot shorter than my pinned 14.5/16.1 OAL upper, but those 2" makes running a 6" Surpressor indoors completely doable. IMO, anything less than 12.5 should be chambered in 300BO, or x39. Sub'd!
Good video. I currently run a BCM 11.5 and FN 16inch. I have a BA lower laying around. I'm still undecided on what to build. Maybe something not in 556? Since I have the SBR and GPR roles kind of filled already.
I have two 12.5” uppers and they both have mid length gas systems. One is a Triarc Track 2.0 barrel in a billet Zev upper w/ Zev Wedgelock handguard and the other is an HM Defense Monobloc in a billet Mega Arms MML upper.The Triarc is easily the softest shooting upper receiver I own, and the Monobloc is the SHTF/WROL
Also, I have the midwest industries handguard you speak of, it's great and my rosco bloodline 12.5 goes right to the end. I do run a linear comp though to keep everything pushing forward for in the house.
I think Rosco’s 12.5 Sage barrel with the “patrol” length gas system and continuous taper profile is the way to go. I just don’t wish is was a CHF barrel. Or at least 4150 CMV rather than 416R. That’s type of setup would be the ideal do it all gun that could be ran suppressed or unsuppressed
@@4liter That upper with the SLR handguard has a Criterion hybrid in it with carbine gas. Shoots nice (haven't put a lot of rounds through it yet). I just recently built another 12.5" upper with the Triarc barrel with a MI 11.5" Combat handguard. Aside from the handguard, that's my "gucci" upper. Lol
I'm currently building a 12.5" upper using a Rosco K9 barrel with a Rosco Patrol length gas tube and gas block. The gas port set about halfway between carbine and mid-length should give me plenty of dwell time to run reliably. I plan to run suppressed and unsuppressed interchangeably.
Gonna build a lefty 12.5 with a KAC lower ive been waiting for almost 2 years now. Would like a KAC upper but, ya know...$$$$$ and will have a dedicated can preferably inconel
SLR Rifleworks makes 11.5 and 11.7” handguards that fit the 12.5” barrel like a glove. Incredible quality and lock-up, top notch customer service. Good to go
@@adamg574 yep. General rule for 1/2-28 threading is you’ve got about a .7” delta between the threads on the end of the barrel and the chamber that sits in the receiver beyond where the handguard contacts the receiver. In short, with an 11.7” handguard on a 12.5” barrel the base of the muzzle device will sit perfectly flush with the end of the handguard. An 11.5” handguard on 12.5” barrel will give you an extra .2” or so of wiggle room. And that flush fit (11.7 on 12.5) will almost always work perfectly with suppressors since most of them are tapered toward the mounting end.
Well… not gonna lie. I actually did suppress this gun and went with an RC2. I may have a bit of egg on my face but this gun f#cks!!! Both of em. Not *quite as maneuverable in tight spaces but hardly a loss given ballistics over a 10.3.
What would be your thoughts on running a 12.5 lwrc with adjustable gas block suppresses? Good or bad? I've really been thinking on this lately and have really been wanting one specifically to have it suppressed. Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated!
Screw ADJ gas block. Has your weapon correctly gassed and you’ll be fine. Use a VLTOR A5 Buffer. It’s the best thing in every situation. People argue this and they’re just wrong. Sorry. Give me the following and I’ll shoot at the same efficiency as a 20” m16 - 12.5 mid or carbine barrel (Centurion mk12) - custom gas tube tuned for my weapon specs ( it’s a real thing ). - Vltor A5 buffer w/ H2 (maybe H3) weight and Springco Green or orange. - LPVO - shoot fast eat ass sticker on all my mags
@@treloughfarrer7604 I understand that you want a clone but imo just do it as an 11.5" or a 12.5", they're using slightly longer guns these days due to the unreliable fragmentation of 5.56 out of a 10.3" MK18 and due to the less reliable nature of barrels shorter than 11.5", really you won't regret that extra inch! Good luck with your gun dude. :-)
Thanks for the informative video. I've got a 10.3", 11.5" and a 16". I've never really thought about a 12.5" but might just get a 12.5 upper too; wouldn't hurt right lol
Ooff. That’s a big topic. Lol. But basically I strength train 4 days a week and walk a minimum of 6 miles a day. No cardio. I meal prep breakfast and lunch and eat what I want at dinner. As long as it’s not out of control unhealthy.
I think everything should be suppressed (suppressable), regardless of length. Guns shot a lot are seldom carried a lot (patrol, walknhunt, or in/out of vehicles). Guns carried a lot are seldom shot, so weight and length are more of a factor. The additional weight/length for a suppressed 12"+ is irrelevant for people that actual train and compete year round. The benefits of a suppressor far outweigh the costs. The problem lies with civilians who don't train or compete that have to justify their tacticool purchases by imaging what the weapon would theoretically be used for in a zombie apocalypse that they aren't prepared for.
All my ARs are suppressible and I have suppressors. They have their place, but they’re not magic. I think suppressors are somewhat overrated for most people. They’re heavy and make your rifle filthy. For a lot of situations, I don’t agree that the benefits of a suppressor outweigh the cost. Buy ammo and get training first.
Hey brother, I'm looking at either 12.5 or 13.9 triarc system rifle...I hear what you're saying about the 12.5. If I do go 13.9 I'm most likely going to pin and weld it so legally it will be considered a rifle. Which I think is a win, still a good size. I want to know your opinion on this. Which route would you take?
Depends what the 12.5 is honestly. The triarch is a STRONG candidate to compete with. They have the rifle gas tuning down pat so you know it’s gonna be a soft shooter. The 12.5 definitely has an edge on maneuverability. I suppose I would need more information to give an accurate assessment
For any aspiring owners, consider lightening the weapon as much as possible, without sacrificing barrel thickness or BCG quality. There are two good examples in this video, between the heavier quad-rail and lighter MLOK handguards. I would always prefer minimal weight for CQB and home/civil/urban use.
Definitely an interesting perspective. I’m still new the nfa and sbr realm. I’ve been considering a 12.5 for the reasons you have mentioned but I am curious as to why you’ve mentioned a 12.5 if you’re not going to suppress your rifle? Is there a reason for not suppressing the 12.5? I’d like to eventually go the sbr route with my rifle however I’d like to suppress it. Do you have any recommendations then?
Perhaps it came off wrong. Not saying you shouldn’t suppress a 12.5 but when you start getting beyond that length, it becomes a bit less manageable in tight spaces with the added can. It’s all subjective though I suppose. One thing is certain. 12.5 is superior to every barrel length that is shorter
In your particular situation, I’d go 11.5 if it was me and I planned to suppress and planned on doing close range and any mid range shooting out to 300 yards. If you are consistently shooting 400+ I’d try the 12.5 It’s pretty unmanageable after that. Certainly for cqbr. Most who suppress these days go with 10.5 or 10.3. It’s a popular length for that reason. I wanted to raise awareness in the video that an extra inch or two will have exponentially improved performance.
Thank you for the quick reply! I’ve been on the fence between 11.5 and 12.5 I still have a 16” that can reach farther if I want to use that. I may consider the 11.5 more then. Either way I appreciate your insight and clarification!
** minor side note… if you do decide to run a 11.5 or 12.5 rifle and you want to suppress it. Look at the Dead Air Sandman K. In my humble opinion it is the BEST option to suppress your gun and keep your overall package length short. I do agree with you that the 12.5 is the GOAT as far as “Sweet Spot” short boy. Build one each.
Just built a Rosco 12.5" with an 11" Strike Industries Gridloack handguard. Rosco Bloodline barrels with their patrol length gastube is a nice ft shooting 1/2 MOA gun.
I’ve always been a fan of the VG6 gamma. That said, if using defensively or competitively, go with a Surefire 3 prong. A lot of competition regs don’t allow brakes and defensively, it’s more important to reduce flash than recoil. I’ll go with an H2 buffer to do that.
Yeah true and like you said midwest industries has some good ones too. I had one of their 12.5 uppers and it was damn good. I just bought a zion 12.5 pistol with a midlength gas system, I'm curious to see how the midlength system is in a 12.5. Plus the price was too nice to pass up with the labor day sale.
@@lifestyleniall Yup that was it to 208 gunshop. Oh hell yeah that deal was way too sweet to pass up. Same here I'm just waiting for it to ship and I'm waiting to get the YHM Turbo Kv2.
I’m just coming around to this. And was considering a 12.5” as I have a barrel kicking around but as I’m looking around, I can’t find a handguard I want to put with it. Lately been going back to picatinny handguards. And everything is either too short or too long. I have a 7.5” upper kicking around from before I knew better. It’s an Aero and strangely, it freakin runs.
@@theuncouthtruth9551 holy crap. I had no idea they started making rails. Awesome. I love the lightweight of the mLok stuff but concluded it isn’t as rigid as the quads are
Hi thank you for the great video. I want to know what the minimum length a 556 nato rifle must be for the bullet to start tumbling inside the tissue and is this achived with fmj's or soft point? thanks
Bullets will tumble to one degree or another but it’s more an issue of if the projectile has enough speed to cause effective cavitation. Generally speaking 2400 FPS is the minimum standard. Different barrel lengths having different velocities at different distances, I , personally would not go shorter than 10.3 for a CQB application. But a 10.3 has a much more limited range comparably.
Just got a 12.5” complete upper in the mail. Trying to decide with a SF War Comp if it puts me at 16”!! I’m getting varying responses. I have an SBR’d lower I’m gonna use for now and call it good. Good Video!! Subbed!!
Was gonna say RIP your dog, but I'm glad you clarified. That being said, for anyone reading this comment, a warcomp WILL NOT get a 12.5" to 16" overall.
12.5 Car and 13.7 Mid are my favorite barrel lengths . My 12.5 has Fn Hybrid HF barrel with C4 10" Quad and YHM T2 Turbo K . My 13.7 is FN Midweight HF with Midwest 12.5" Two piece free FLOAT MLOK and YHM T2 Turbo K. YHM Turbo K only adds 4.9" when using Kurz Kit . So its practically the same size as 16" with A2 flash Hider. Using Turbo K doesnt slow me down at on 12.5 or 13.7 . I agree 100% quad rails will never go out of style and they are the surefire/ bomb proof rails period . BCM , and Centurion make quad rails that are only 3 to 4oz heavier than Mlok .
Daniel defense CHF 12.5. I actually just picked one up yesterday at primary arms. They’re rarely in stock but I snagged one so I’ll be swapping it out. Not to say that the Ballistic advantage hasn’t been a great barrel. It definitely has. Ballistic advantage and Rosco are comparably reasonable in price and excellent quality. But there’s something about the CHF barrel that warms my heart like no other. The DDM4 is the go to quad rail but if I was gonna build a third, I’d go with ripcord industries LDR1 11.7 Mlok. High quality and same concept as the Geissele rails. It’s a fairly new company. The owner used to work for Lukas at trex. I would say this rail is a perfect length for 12.5. I’ll link the page. 👌🏻
Primary Weapons Systems makes a really nice 11.85" long stroke piston driven AR15 with 3 adjustable gas block. 2 positions on the gas block are for shooting suppressed, the piston makes shooting suppressed a lot cleaner in your upper. The 11.85" length is for exportation reasons but I find it's a really nice length for maneuvering and having decent ballistics. The downside is some unique parts in instances you may need to make repairs.
I ordered and just got done building a 12.5 kit from Delta Team Tactical. It came with 12.5 Ballistics Advantage barrel, 13in M lok rail, Recoil Technologies flash can, Aderson upper and lower, Davidson Defense slab side BCG, Kak industries mil spec complete lower kit, SB4 brace.
@@dstdrummer Nice...I was going to go with PSA . They have some nice deals and I like there kits they offer some quality lowers and upper kits. Good job brother
@@williamharris803 I couldn’t pass up the deal on the lower. Complete, assembled, with their, “EPT”….$159. I’m going to pair that with the DTT “Conqueror” 12.5” upper. Should make for a nice little project. 👍🏽
Funny you say that. That’s exactly what is now on the black one. Lol. Been a while since I made this video. I swapped the aero for the FCD rail with KAC panels
Can you clarify tbh I get confused on these ar “pistol” laws. I have the Zion 15 pistol, can I put a vertical grip on? Did I hear that right or did I miss something
Yes. You heard that right. You can. Just no stock. Must be a brace. The OAL is greater than 26” so a VFG is allowed. But because the barrel is less than 16” it must have a brace. This is classified as “firearm”. Not a rifle. Not a pistol. And not an NFA item like an AOW or SBR.
I only have a suppressed 9in BCM in 300blk and have been debating on if I should get a 556 or not for months. The only reason I'm considering one is ammo compatibility with more people, but my closest friends already own 300blk guns anyway. 🤷♂️
Similar situation here. Not sure there’s a point to a SBR 5.56 when I have a 9” 300blk, so might just go 14.5, but the velocity differences between 12.5 and 14.5 aren’t too significant.
Tbh, for a large man sized target, about 100 - 150. The drag on the bullet really does a great deal of reduction in terminal ballistics beyond that. And even that length is pushing it. What I’m comfortable with is pretty subjective though. 🤷🏼♂️
10.5 has a huge port on it, 12.5 port size runs smoother as a mid length without beating the internals up......12.5 middy/quad rail, trijicon tri-power, YHM RES2 here 😀
Dude, thank you so much. I avoided putting a bcm foregrip because I wasn’t sure of the law Orin this case ATFs opinion that they think is law. Sure as shit, it does say 26” or greater is good to go. Also thank you for posting this. Currently have an 11.5, but was considering a 12.5.
So, just to be safe, you can put a foregrip on a 12.5, and have a pistol brace on it without having to register yes? This shts so confusing it makes me nauseous
My thoughts were initially due to added length. But I put my foot in my mouth because I actually did wind up suppressing with an RC2. Not quite as maneuverable on things like barricades and doorways but still an excellent barrel length due to the ballistics and though less manageable than the 10.5, still quite manageable indoors
Home defense, 10.3. Strictly If it’s indoor and close range, you can still manage enough velocity with the right round for effectiveness. I’d recommend Speer gold dot or hornady tap
You can add a folding adapter but because the adapter is on there, you can’t have a VFG. Once a folder is added, it changes how the OAL is measured and it would then be measured folded putting the OAL under 26”. So it would then classify the weapon as a “pistol”
They had a bunch of M4 bbls and whacked em down where the 203 cut is at, enlarged the gas port to get enough of a gulp of air to cycle properly and the 10.3 was born. The 11.5 was already once in service 66' - 68' but only had a small following so was back shelved. In my opinion 11.5 is the optimal bbl length for dwell time, proper gas port size, etc..
The 10.5 was created by Colt as a Submachinegun alternative Before the 11.5” and before the M203. Colt created the 11.5 because of reliability issues on the 10.5 due to lack of dwell time. It also helped to reduce the flash and blast of the 10.5”. The short length rifles were always a specialist weapon used primarily by MACV-SOG and some other Special Forces units, as they still are today. The Military continued on with the 20” M16 until the 80s when they wanted to replace their grease guns (yes ww2 era grease guns) for vehicle crewman etc. The 14.5 M4 was then born (that length was mainly to fit the M203) The M4 was then almost universally adopted inthe late 90s as the reduction in velocity/overall effective range was determined to not be a huge deal vs the benefit of shorter length for guys enterring and exiting vehicles and for logistics of everyone using the same gun
ok I am commenting on this here since its the newest video and I figure you would see it. I am stuck and want your opinion. Stribog or Scorpion. Found them both in stock for the same price
@@tjwright2580 In your position, I would go with the Scorpion between the two. The A3 still has some proving to do and the initial roll out had some problems. Mine has been working great and no issues. That said, given the rock solid reliability of the scorpion, I would take the scorpion. I prefer shooting my A3 slightly more between the two as it is a little softer shooting and I prefer the aesthetics a little more, but home defense is not a factor for me as it’s not my HD weapon of choice. In summary, go with the scorpion I currently have both SBRd and am probably gonna revisit the two in a head to head competition video soon. That will definitely be one of the topics discussed.
I ran a 12.5 for a while and loved it. Still went back to 16 ultimately. I'm a long guy tho. So even tho 12.5 was a nice balance, the benefits didn't outweigh the cons. I can train past the issues 16 give me. I can't train to make 5.56 more effective out of 12.5.
Initially I said this because I didn’t plan on using it suppressed. I have apparently stuck my foot in my my mouth because I have since suppressed it and it runs beautifully. Not quite as maneuverable in tight areas like a car but definitely happy with it vs the 10.5
@@theuncouthtruth9551 I've finally ordered mine! A car may be too tight... But what are your thoughts on the 12.5" with a silencer on a home/building situation?
No. It’s not weight. The real area of when it’s becoming cumbersome is maneuvering. If you work a Vtac barricade, it will highlight the length difference pretty dramatically. But it’s just a suggestion. 🤷🏼♂️ a 12.5 suppressed will still be pretty amazing
Just discovered your channel while trying to decide on another length to buy while gun bans are being floated. I built a 7” 5.56 flame thrower just for fun and about 10 years ago I built a Noveske 16” and a mix of mega arms parts. Want something between 11.5 and 13.7 to eventually suppress but be an overall do everything. Any opinions on PWS and their 11.5” mk111 mod 2 or bcm 12.5? Mk18 was a dream gun but not worth the price or to find right now
Me personally, I’d go with the BCM 12.5. I wound up suppressed mine. Even though I put my shoe in my mouth I. This video because honest to god I had no intention but I did it anyway. It’s definitely not as maneuverable as the 10.5 but not to the degree I would be concerned. Gonna do some supressed shooting on a Vtac board and from a car with both the 12.5 vs 10.5 and do a head to head. I’ll be doing a video on it when I get time. But if the goal is a good close/ mid range there is too many benefits of 12.5 to go with a mk18. You will be happier. That’s what I would get.
im looking at doing a mini recce build, using a 12.5 barrel and a 1-6 scope, would that be a good option, also what hand guard would you recommend. I may end up suppressing it in the future so I would need enough clearance for that
Depends on what you want to spend. 12.5 premium barrel would be DD, solely for the purpose of a high round count because it’s CHF. I decided on Ballistic Advance. Both my 12.5 are BA and are phenomenally accurate. And as durable and well made as it gets for button forged barrels. For a 12.5 suppressed, you will need generous clearance at the threads. I recommend the DD DDM4 (which is on the gun pictured, or if you want less gap, check out the Larue tactical line of quads. If looking for Mlok, I suggest first the forward controls design RHF 11.5, second would be from Midwest industries. Geissele is my usual go to but 12.5 isn’t the most common length unfortunately so options are slightly limited. 1-6 scope, I’d go with vortex viper if you don’t wanna break the bank. If you want to spend a bit more, the Razor is basically the gold standard of premium optics. If you want budget, primary arms ACSS all day.
@@theuncouthtruth9551 okay cool! have you heard anything about the rosco barrels? im debating between that and the BA barrel. ive been looking at the midwest industries 11.5 combat rail. they seem a little slim, but I guess they would be good in the hands. will the midwest 11.5 give me enough clearance at the threads? im also looking at the viper pst gen 2 1-6, it looks like a great scope
@@jonathanmiller5701 viper scope is excellent. Can’t go wrong. Specifically for the 5-600 category. Clear glass. Daylight bright reticle. My video on the P4XI covers this. I prefer the P4XI because I get the 6x wasn’t as necessary as clearer glass but that was when the P4XI was also cheaper. Now I would take the viper given the price today. I can’t speak from experience but from the ton of research I have done, Rosco and Ballistic advantage are directly rivaled and comparable in every way. I am personally not a fan of pencil barrel or thin cut because of the sacrifice in durability during volume fire. Government profile is my go to and less flex in the barrel. But I suppose there is a ton of varying perspectives. The way is see it, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I prefer BA over Rosco simply due to longer reputation. That said, I have heard nothing but good things from Rosco. Hope this helps 👍🏻 As far as rails , look at the specs sheet for the SPECIFIC length. If memory serves correctly MI has true to spec handguards and you will have no problems with clearance. I only say that because most manufacturers are roughly.5 inch off longer on exact rail length. But yes. The MI rail should work no problem 👍🏻
Nothing in particular. It just a matter of cqb. Working doorways and obstruction with the added length can be cumbersome. A 12.5 barrel suppressed may be more unmanageable than most are comfortable with. Me personally, I’d rather have a 10.3 suppressed than a 12.5. Simply because of how I train. To highlight this, try out a 9 hole drill on a vtac barricade. That little bit makes a bigger difference than you would think. But if that’s what you want, absolutely. Build what suit you. Not some asshat like me on CZcams. Lol
@@theuncouthtruth9551 well you seem more knowledgeable than me so I take reputable people's opinions into consideration when customizing any one my firearms. Iv only been really getting into guns for the past year or so and although i'v learned a lot there is clearly always so much more i do not know. The reason personally I was thinking 12.5" specifically is i assumed the advantages shooting mid distances is a lot greater than a 10.3" and i was thinking about maybe using the Omega 36m silencer since it can be put into a full size or slightly smaller configuration... But since you have both do you happen to know the effectiveness of them out to say... 3 to 400 meters max? Will a 12.5 still produce a lethal shot? Will a 10.3 do the same? Or are they only good up to 100 meters max?
@@thatliberalwithagun3122 a lot depends on the load type but it’s a rather complicated issue. The round typically needs to stay above 2400 fps to cause cavitation during yaw when it impacts the organs. Ideally 2700 fps causes fragmentation of the round barring plastic tip ammo like Hornady TAP that assist with fragment and disperses the kinetic energy of the round is so important. If you watch gel block testing, high velocity rounds will cause a bubble (cavitation) when it impacts the gel. This is what causes the most damage as it rapidly displaces tissue and essentially liquifies tissue and organs. As the bullet drops below 2400, this is significantly reduced and you will see more of an in and out wound channel. I may actually do a video later today explaining in depth 🤔 this is a lot to write. Lol to answer your question, I trust a 12.5 with the right ammo to get the job done at 300. A 10.5? nope.
To caption the obvious, when I say “best” it is my subjective opinion. 😁
Edit: as it’s been almost 2 years since this video has been made, I seem to have stuck my foot in my mouth. As suppressing them is exactly what I did. Surefire RC2. And they are awesome. Though less manageable as you would expect when shooting from a barricade or the inside of a car etc. But everything is a trade off. That said, 12.5 is still the GOAT 🐐 🙌🏻 I double down on this
🤔
My research and combat training has led me to view the 12.5 as the best overall length as well... self defense, urban close quarters combat, moderate distance battle field combat, operation from a vehicle, effective power or velocity, reliability with a mid length gas tube and sufficient dwell time... the 12.5 may not be the best at any of those, but can do all of those pretty well. I am looking to buy probably a Zion15 12.5" in 5.56 this week. Is the Socom barrel better than the government profile... I don't know.
I don't know why 10.5" has become sort of the standard in ar pistols. I want to get into doing builds, but I'm not comfortable doing that without much help, so the Zion looks good to me so far.
@@MrBurdinekl honestly, the disparity between socom and government cuts on a 12.5 barrel are so negligible that it’s probably not worth noting and strictly preference. Barrel flex may play a part at 500 yards or more giving the government cut the advantage but a 12.5 isn’t a long range gun. Ultimately, it honestly boils down to aesthetic. What will make a difference is gas length.
I agree 100% 12.5 is the best barrel length on suppressed for a SBR. I have a 12.5 upper for mine and a 10.5 for my suppressed upper. I tried a suppressor on the 12.5 and it’s just not for me. That 2 inches less makes a pretty substantial weight savings. Plus with my home and property. The chances I’m shooting past 200 yards is almost 0 so a 10 five suppressed works perfectly for me. A lot of it just comes down to use case. That said, I’d say 10.3 is probably the shortest you should ever go in 5.56. I may make a 7.5” 300 blackout if I want to go shorter than 10.5”.
I can add some lesser known evidence to it, it's about the absolute longest barrel lengths that can shoot 55gn ammo effectively with 1:7 twist. People confuse that, it's not the twist rate alone, it's too long of a barrel AND too aggressive of a twist rate that's an issue. 12.5" 1:7 barrels get 55gn rounds right there up to 300k RPM, which is considered the maximum you should spin it up to. You figure out the RPM by (muzzle velocity in feet per second x 12 inches per foot) / (7 inches for one rotation) x (60 seconds per minute) = RPM. People think the 1:7 is the issue, but it's not, and the reason they see issues with accuracy is because they likely have a longer barrel and the bullets are pretty much on the cusp or actually disintegrating in flight. They basically melt and come apart in air from reaching such a high RPM in longer barrels.
The IWI Zion 12.5” pistol has a mid length gas system. It’s not as compact as some AR pistols out there, but as far as functionality I’d say it’s the ideal pistol variant. It’s also a quality firearm that runs under the $1000 mark. I picked one up today from Bud’s gun shop online with free shipping for $828.
you suppress it?
@@DTreatz If I had a suppressor I would.
@@josefabdon l0l
My next purchase!
Is it not good suppressed? Newbie here …
Thank you for this video. Just the info iv been looking for on my new build.
Thanks for this one- yes, Great length/ for the 12.5 w/ 12” hand-guard, a carbon guard that can be trimmed to length, is great, or- running a blast can / which also moves some of the added percussive noise away from the shooter
Thank you for sharing your insights and thoughts. I'm still new to this stuff and appreciate your opinion. I carried an M16A-1 when I was in the Marines. I knew that rifle pretty well but the whole platform has grown since then. So much new stuff to learn. Thanks for posting.
We had M16A1s in my first unit, which I really liked. Multiple generations of AR-15s have emerged since then.
I consider the M16A1 and Colt 653 carbine the capstones of the first Generation, which included the 1957 prototypes, 1959 Colt 601, 602, 603 (M16A1), USAF 604, 605 Carbine, 606 HBAR, 607 Commando, 608 USAF Survival Rifle, XM177, XM177E2, GAU-5A, GAU-5A/A, 656 Sniper, etc.
M16A2 marked the entrance to the 2nd Generation which included the Colt 723, 727, and 733 carbines/commandos.
M4 came from the 727, ushering in the 3rd Generation, which also included M16A4.
Within M4/M4A1, you have SOPMOD Blocks.
On the civilian side, it exploded with variations and trends, the biggest one being high performance intermediate cartridge and alternate chamberings, free-float as a dominant baseline, excellent triggers, billet receiver sets, endless furniture options, and all while a revolution in optics and electro-optical aiming devices has emerged.
I think the quintessential example of all this is a 12" 6.5 Grendel AR-15, which can not only excel at HD, but hunting and long range shooting, all in the size of an MP5.
DITTO, USAF SP in the 1970's and 80's M16A1 was standard fare. Or A GUA5A/A. I also served as SP armorer, so intimate with cleaning and storage of same. S.E.A. to the Sandbox '73-'95
12.5 is the sweet spot in velocity and ballistics. I've had a couple in the past and I kept one out of the few that I built.
16 is the jack of all trades, and go 20 inches if you want something actually effective at a range.
Thanks for this video that ending part about Midwest was very helpful for my 12.5 piston build
I have a 13.5" mid length gas .308 and it's still a tack driver for under 300yd hunting hog and deer. Easier to maneuver in thick brush. Suppressed, it's nice and comfortable. Especially with subsonic rounds. Using Winchester Power-Point Hog Special .308 Winchester 150-Grain, had a great sub 1 moa at 100 yds.
A bit newer to guns, would a 14.5 barrel allow for under 600yrds hunting?
@@xekeysyes
great info thank you
Good video and great synopsis!
Cool video on 12.5’s. I am running a Forward Controls RHF4 11.5” Quad Hand-guard with a Ballistic Advantage 12.3” Hanson barrel. Absolutely perfect set up. You should check that out.
I’m currently running 12.5 Zion-15 with suppression. It’s beautiful.
You nailed all the same reasonings that I had for the 12.5.
I run a 12.5 w a Surefire RC2 which puts it right around the length of a 16 inch gun and it runs great
BCM makes some hand guards for the 12.5. However the Daniel defense rails are amazingly lightweight and durable!
Nice info my man! I just ordered a bcm 12.5 earlier today.
I favor 12.5's the most as well, although I prefer middy 12.5" builds. Aero's 10.2" handguards are just long enough to completely cover your gas block on a middy 12.5", protecting the block but giving you easy access if running adjustable blocks. I've put together a few 12.5" middy uppers so far with different barrels, and all have been solid. Very soft shooting and you only need H1 buffers with them.
Really 10.2 hand guard on an 12.5 love to see how that looks do you run into any issues with the h1 buffer with the ejection pattern? Or any sorts of malfunctions?
Forward Controls Design makes some good 11.5 hand guards that'll fit the 12.5 barrel
Type A’s 12.5 hand guard is pretty awesome. Can’t wait to get mine lol
Good video as always brother stay safe out there
12.5 inch cmmg 300 black out sbr is what I went with for unsuppressed supersonic loads
I’m very interested in the tan rifle. anyway to get another video on that build. Or at least a reply on components used?
Great vid thanks. That set up is the only way we can have an AR in CT. That and a pre ban.
Just built a new Surpressor host upper with a 12.3 BA Hanson bbl and a 11.5 MI Combat Rail. Not a whole lot shorter than my pinned 14.5/16.1 OAL upper, but those 2" makes running a 6" Surpressor indoors completely doable. IMO, anything less than 12.5 should be chambered in 300BO, or x39. Sub'd!
Thinking of pin/weld my can to my 12.3” BA Hanson.... legal upper length then , I’m 5’4 so it’s perfect size 😅
I fail to see how 11.5 isn't better, the whole point of a SBR or pistol build its to accentuate its short length.
Valid points. Good post
Good video. I currently run a BCM 11.5 and FN 16inch. I have a BA lower laying around. I'm still undecided on what to build. Maybe something not in 556? Since I have the SBR and GPR roles kind of filled already.
I have two 12.5” uppers and they both have mid length gas systems. One is a Triarc Track 2.0 barrel in a billet Zev upper w/ Zev Wedgelock handguard and the other is an HM Defense Monobloc in a billet Mega Arms MML upper.The Triarc is easily the softest shooting upper receiver I own, and the Monobloc is the SHTF/WROL
You don't care about dwell time? That's like having length gas on a 16 or 14.5
Also, I have the midwest industries handguard you speak of, it's great and my rosco bloodline 12.5 goes right to the end. I do run a linear comp though to keep everything pushing forward for in the house.
I just built a 12.5 Rosco with 11.5 Midwest hand guard
What would be a good barrel length for suppressor ?
I think Rosco’s 12.5 Sage barrel with the “patrol” length gas system and continuous taper profile is the way to go. I just don’t wish is was a CHF barrel. Or at least 4150 CMV rather than 416R. That’s type of setup would be the ideal do it all gun that could be ran suppressed or unsuppressed
I have an SLR Rifleworks handguard on my 12.5" SBR. It's 11.7" so runs right up to the muzzle threads.
I’ve got the same setup with a 12.5 ballistic advantage Hanson barrel. Love it.
@@4liter That upper with the SLR handguard has a Criterion hybrid in it with carbine gas. Shoots nice (haven't put a lot of rounds through it yet). I just recently built another 12.5" upper with the Triarc barrel with a MI 11.5" Combat handguard. Aside from the handguard, that's my "gucci" upper. Lol
I went with a 12 inch handguard on a 12.5 and the diameter is large enough for a suppressor.
Love my MK18...yes it needs a can especially for 5.56.... good thing I just picked up a killer AK from Zastava
Good video thank you
Glad I found this the 12.5 is my next build as well
I got a SLR 11.7 MLOK on my 12.5 it looks great but there is not much offering out there.
I'm currently building a 12.5" upper using a Rosco K9 barrel with a Rosco Patrol length gas tube and gas block. The gas port set about halfway between carbine and mid-length should give me plenty of dwell time to run reliably. I plan to run suppressed and unsuppressed interchangeably.
How's that going for you. I have the same set up and it runs like a top
Gonna build a lefty 12.5 with a KAC lower ive been waiting for almost 2 years now. Would like a KAC upper but, ya know...$$$$$ and will have a dedicated can preferably inconel
SLR Rifleworks makes 11.5 and 11.7” handguards that fit the 12.5” barrel like a glove. Incredible quality and lock-up, top notch customer service. Good to go
Threads on the barrel clear the 11.7 hand guard?
@@adamg574 yep. General rule for 1/2-28 threading is you’ve got about a .7” delta between the threads on the end of the barrel and the chamber that sits in the receiver beyond where the handguard contacts the receiver. In short, with an 11.7” handguard on a 12.5” barrel the base of the muzzle device will sit perfectly flush with the end of the handguard. An 11.5” handguard on 12.5” barrel will give you an extra .2” or so of wiggle room. And that flush fit (11.7 on 12.5) will almost always work perfectly with suppressors since most of them are tapered toward the mounting end.
Are there really people crazy enough to pay 300$ for a handguard out there?
What are your thoughts: a 11.5 larger can or 12.5” short (k) can suppressing it? Building a do all but serve as Home defense rifle.
Well… not gonna lie. I actually did suppress this gun and went with an RC2. I may have a bit of egg on my face but this gun f#cks!!! Both of em. Not *quite as maneuverable in tight spaces but hardly a loss given ballistics over a 10.3.
What would be your thoughts on running a 12.5 lwrc with adjustable gas block suppresses? Good or bad? I've really been thinking on this lately and have really been wanting one specifically to have it suppressed. Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated!
Screw ADJ gas block. Has your weapon correctly gassed and you’ll be fine. Use a VLTOR A5 Buffer. It’s the best thing in every situation. People argue this and they’re just wrong. Sorry.
Give me the following and I’ll shoot at the same efficiency as a 20” m16
- 12.5 mid or carbine barrel (Centurion mk12)
- custom gas tube tuned for my weapon specs ( it’s a real thing ).
- Vltor A5 buffer w/ H2 (maybe H3) weight and
Springco Green or orange.
- LPVO
- shoot fast eat ass sticker on all my mags
Late night CZcams creeping but anyways I subbed. I honestly like to hear reviews and from regular gun guys.
I love the 12.5 even with a can it’s my favorite length
12.5" 300BO barrel was a great choice i made
12.5” or 13.7” w/ DA Sandman K w/5.56 FH End Cap is a great Combo.
I'm finishing my 1st build with a 16" barrel. You've convinced me that my 2nd will be 12.5!
You won’t be disappointed 👌🏻
I just finished my 7.5 and 16 as well. My next is a 10.5 mk18 clone
@@treloughfarrer7604 I understand that you want a clone but imo just do it as an 11.5" or a 12.5", they're using slightly longer guns these days due to the unreliable fragmentation of 5.56 out of a 10.3" MK18 and due to the less reliable nature of barrels shorter than 11.5", really you won't regret that extra inch! Good luck with your gun dude. :-)
A few more companies make handguards now, ripcord industries ldr1, Slr rifle works has 11.7 inch rails, there are others but I forgot
Thanks for the informative video. I've got a 10.3", 11.5" and a 16". I've never really thought about a 12.5" but might just get a 12.5 upper too; wouldn't hurt right lol
What’s your work out routine? From cardio/fat burning down to strength?
Ooff. That’s a big topic. Lol. But basically I strength train 4 days a week and walk a minimum of 6 miles a day. No cardio. I meal prep breakfast and lunch and eat what I want at dinner. As long as it’s not out of control unhealthy.
I think everything should be suppressed (suppressable), regardless of length.
Guns shot a lot are seldom carried a lot (patrol, walknhunt, or in/out of vehicles). Guns carried a lot are seldom shot, so weight and length are more of a factor. The additional weight/length for a suppressed 12"+ is irrelevant for people that actual train and compete year round.
The benefits of a suppressor far outweigh the costs.
The problem lies with civilians who don't train or compete that have to justify their tacticool purchases by imaging what the weapon would theoretically be used for in a zombie apocalypse that they aren't prepared for.
Hey man I'm trying to prepare
All my ARs are suppressible and I have suppressors. They have their place, but they’re not magic. I think suppressors are somewhat overrated for most people. They’re heavy and make your rifle filthy. For a lot of situations, I don’t agree that the benefits of a suppressor outweigh the cost. Buy ammo and get training first.
I like 12.5 but I can’t carry my 11.3 as if it was a handgun. Like state parks were only handguns are allowed.
12.5 is the shortest where it will still burn all the gunpowder. Anything lower will spit powder out the front can even burn your arms.
Ghost firearms has a 12in handguard that will fix perfect also
Hey brother, I'm looking at either 12.5 or 13.9 triarc system rifle...I hear what you're saying about the 12.5. If I do go 13.9 I'm most likely going to pin and weld it so legally it will be considered a rifle. Which I think is a win, still a good size. I want to know your opinion on this. Which route would you take?
Depends what the 12.5 is honestly. The triarch is a STRONG candidate to compete with. They have the rifle gas tuning down pat so you know it’s gonna be a soft shooter. The 12.5 definitely has an edge on maneuverability. I suppose I would need more information to give an accurate assessment
For any aspiring owners, consider lightening the weapon as much as possible, without sacrificing barrel thickness or BCG quality. There are two good examples in this video, between the heavier quad-rail and lighter MLOK handguards. I would always prefer minimal weight for CQB and home/civil/urban use.
Definitely an interesting perspective. I’m still new the nfa and sbr realm. I’ve been considering a 12.5 for the reasons you have mentioned but I am curious as to why you’ve mentioned a 12.5 if you’re not going to suppress your rifle? Is there a reason for not suppressing the 12.5? I’d like to eventually go the sbr route with my rifle however I’d like to suppress it. Do you have any recommendations then?
Perhaps it came off wrong. Not saying you shouldn’t suppress a 12.5 but when you start getting beyond that length, it becomes a bit less manageable in tight spaces with the added can. It’s all subjective though I suppose. One thing is certain. 12.5 is superior to every barrel length that is shorter
In your particular situation, I’d go 11.5 if it was me and I planned to suppress and planned on doing close range and any mid range shooting out to 300 yards. If you are consistently shooting 400+ I’d try the 12.5 It’s pretty unmanageable after that. Certainly for cqbr. Most who suppress these days go with 10.5 or 10.3. It’s a popular length for that reason. I wanted to raise awareness in the video that an extra inch or two will have exponentially improved performance.
Thank you for the quick reply! I’ve been on the fence between 11.5 and 12.5 I still have a 16” that can reach farther if I want to use that. I may consider the 11.5 more then. Either way I appreciate your insight and clarification!
** minor side note… if you do decide to run a 11.5 or 12.5 rifle and you want to suppress it. Look at the Dead Air Sandman K. In my humble opinion it is the BEST option to suppress your gun and keep your overall package length short. I do agree with you that the 12.5 is the GOAT as far as “Sweet Spot” short boy. Build one each.
@@kryptonite77f6 sandman S for the 11.5 and 12.5 or even better yet Sierra 5 dedicated 5.56 can if you’re sticking to deadair. Sandman k for a 13.7
Just built a Rosco 12.5" with an 11" Strike Industries Gridloack handguard. Rosco Bloodline barrels with their patrol length gastube is a nice ft shooting 1/2 MOA gun.
For a 12.5 inch barrel, would you recommend installing a muzzle brake? If so, what would you suggest?
I’ve always been a fan of the VG6 gamma. That said, if using defensively or competitively, go with a Surefire 3 prong. A lot of competition regs don’t allow brakes and defensively, it’s more important to reduce flash than recoil. I’ll go with an H2 buffer to do that.
When doing a 12.5 barrel I just stick with 11.5 handguards. It just helps avoid any issues especially If you want to add a suppressor later.
Agreed. The problem I ran into was that it’s not a common length. It should be. Especially if Geissele made that length for the MK13
Yeah true and like you said midwest industries has some good ones too. I had one of their 12.5 uppers and it was damn good. I just bought a zion 12.5 pistol with a midlength gas system, I'm curious to see how the midlength system is in a 12.5. Plus the price was too nice to pass up with the labor day sale.
@@madeintexas1213 I got the same deal! 208gunshop right? I’m waiting eagerly for the “shipped” status… 😬 Such a killer deal
@@lifestyleniall Yup that was it to 208 gunshop. Oh hell yeah that deal was way too sweet to pass up. Same here I'm just waiting for it to ship and I'm waiting to get the YHM Turbo Kv2.
What issues does that help avoid?
I’m just coming around to this. And was considering a 12.5” as I have a barrel kicking around but as I’m looking around, I can’t find a handguard I want to put with it. Lately been going back to picatinny handguards. And everything is either too short or too long.
I have a 7.5” upper kicking around from before I knew better. It’s an Aero and strangely, it freakin runs.
I actually just swapped the aero handguard for the forward controls design RHF11.5” quad. Fits like a glove 👌🏻
www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/RHF4_p_217.html
@@theuncouthtruth9551 holy crap. I had no idea they started making rails. Awesome. I love the lightweight of the mLok stuff but concluded it isn’t as rigid as the quads are
Hi thank you for the great video.
I want to know what the minimum length a 556 nato rifle must be for the bullet to start tumbling inside the tissue and is this achived with fmj's or soft point?
thanks
Bullets will tumble to one degree or another but it’s more an issue of if the projectile has enough speed to cause effective cavitation. Generally speaking 2400 FPS is the minimum standard. Different barrel lengths having different velocities at different distances, I , personally would not go shorter than 10.3 for a CQB application. But a 10.3 has a much more limited range comparably.
Thanks for the video! Say, at 12.5” with a 1:8 twist what do you think is a good ammo grain? Would 55gr be sufficient? Thanks again!
1:8 would go best with 62g but it will definitely go well with 55. 1:8 is a “happy medium” twist. Works well with everything except 77g match king
@@theuncouthtruth9551 thank you sir!
Good. Video I'll go with 12.5 how about mid length iwi or hm defense
Just got a 12.5” complete upper in the mail. Trying to decide with a SF War Comp if it puts me at 16”!! I’m getting varying responses. I have an SBR’d lower I’m gonna use for now and call it good. Good Video!! Subbed!!
Duh…I’m thinking of my 14.5” lol!! Still good video!!
Was gonna say RIP your dog, but I'm glad you clarified. That being said, for anyone reading this comment, a warcomp WILL NOT get a 12.5" to 16" overall.
@@asdfghjk2933 lol 😂 simple math huh??
12.5 Car and 13.7 Mid are my favorite barrel lengths . My 12.5 has Fn Hybrid HF barrel with C4 10" Quad and YHM T2 Turbo K . My 13.7 is FN Midweight HF with Midwest 12.5" Two piece free FLOAT MLOK and YHM T2 Turbo K.
YHM Turbo K only adds 4.9" when using Kurz Kit . So its practically the same size as 16" with A2 flash Hider. Using Turbo K doesnt slow me down at on 12.5 or 13.7 .
I agree 100% quad rails will never go out of style and they are the surefire/ bomb proof rails period . BCM , and Centurion make quad rails that are only 3 to 4oz heavier than Mlok .
Been using a 12.5" mid gas ARP since 2010, perfect with a can.
Great video. If you had to build another 12.5, which barrel brand would you go with? What about the quad rail? Thanks!
Daniel defense CHF 12.5. I actually just picked one up yesterday at primary arms. They’re rarely in stock but I snagged one so I’ll be swapping it out. Not to say that the Ballistic advantage hasn’t been a great barrel. It definitely has. Ballistic advantage and Rosco are comparably reasonable in price and excellent quality. But there’s something about the CHF barrel that warms my heart like no other. The DDM4 is the go to quad rail but if I was gonna build a third, I’d go with ripcord industries LDR1 11.7 Mlok. High quality and same concept as the Geissele rails. It’s a fairly new company. The owner used to work for Lukas at trex. I would say this rail is a perfect length for 12.5. I’ll link the page. 👌🏻
www.ripcordindustries.com/product-page/ldr1-11-75
@@theuncouthtruth9551 Thanks for the reply! Love your builds!
Great Information. Thank you. Is it legal to put an adjustable stock with a 12.5" barrel?
Stock, no. Brace, yes.
Its legal if your lower is registered as an SBR.
Primary Weapons Systems makes a really nice 11.85" long stroke piston driven AR15 with 3 adjustable gas block. 2 positions on the gas block are for shooting suppressed, the piston makes shooting suppressed a lot cleaner in your upper. The 11.85" length is for exportation reasons but I find it's a really nice length for maneuvering and having decent ballistics. The downside is some unique parts in instances you may need to make repairs.
The midwest industries 11.5" rails fit perfectly with a 12.5" barrel. The threads on a ballistic advantage barrel are 0.61" long.
I think a flash can like a Noveske should tuck under even a slim handguard.
It should
I ordered and just got done building a 12.5 kit from Delta Team Tactical. It came with 12.5 Ballistics Advantage barrel, 13in M lok rail, Recoil Technologies flash can, Aderson upper and lower, Davidson Defense slab side BCG, Kak industries mil spec complete lower kit, SB4 brace.
I am planning on ordering the same kit, (complete upper only, no lower parts kit).
How do you like it?
@@dstdrummer I'm very happy with everything. Go to Deltateam Tactical. They did a good job getting my kit to me.
@@williamharris803
Killer!
That eases my mind.
I got a good deal on a PSA complete assembled lower too.
Thanks!!
@@dstdrummer Nice...I was going to go with PSA . They have some nice deals and I like there kits they offer some quality lowers and upper kits. Good job brother
@@williamharris803
I couldn’t pass up the deal on the lower.
Complete, assembled, with their, “EPT”….$159.
I’m going to pair that with the DTT “Conqueror” 12.5” upper.
Should make for a nice little project.
👍🏽
Just got myself a 12.5 carbine from aero. Still gotta hit the range and break her in but damn aint she a beaut 😄🇱🇷🇱🇷🇱🇷
Forward controls sells a 11.5 quad rail made for them by centurion. I have it on my 12.5 and it absolutely fucks. Check it out
Funny you say that. That’s exactly what is now on the black one. Lol. Been a while since I made this video. I swapped the aero for the FCD rail with KAC panels
@Florida Man HVACRyeah but centurion makes their RHF4 quad rail
I'm building a 13.7 pinned and weld AR chambered in 556,And a 13.5 300 blackout
Where are you getting the 13.5 BO barrel from?
Can you clarify tbh I get confused on these ar “pistol” laws. I have the Zion 15 pistol, can I put a vertical grip on? Did I hear that right or did I miss something
Yes. You heard that right. You can. Just no stock. Must be a brace. The OAL is greater than 26” so a VFG is allowed. But because the barrel is less than 16” it must have a brace. This is classified as “firearm”. Not a rifle. Not a pistol. And not an NFA item like an AOW or SBR.
@@theuncouthtruth9551 okay thank you very much
Would a adjustable gas block mitigate issues with running suppressors?
Yes.
I only have a suppressed 9in BCM in 300blk and have been debating on if I should get a 556 or not for months. The only reason I'm considering one is ammo compatibility with more people, but my closest friends already own 300blk guns anyway. 🤷♂️
No one cares
Similar situation here. Not sure there’s a point to a SBR 5.56 when I have a 9” 300blk, so might just go 14.5, but the velocity differences between 12.5 and 14.5 aren’t too significant.
@Adam G I actually ended up going 556 now haha. It is so nice being able to just buy ammo cheaper than even reloading 300blk.
@@musicman1eanda definitely understandable!
What’s the max distance ur comfortable with shooting with this setup?
Tbh, for a large man sized target, about 100 - 150. The drag on the bullet really does a great deal of reduction in terminal ballistics beyond that. And even that length is pushing it. What I’m comfortable with is pretty subjective though. 🤷🏼♂️
What speed difference does one of 12.5 "vs 11.5" have?
12.5 was better Velocity if we talking about.223/ 5.56 with depends on velocity
10.5 has a huge port on it, 12.5 port size runs smoother as a mid length without beating the internals up......12.5 middy/quad rail, trijicon tri-power, YHM RES2 here 😀
How reliable and ammo picky is a 12.5 running mid length gas unsuppressed though? I’ve read carbine gas is better for an unsuppressed 12.5.
@@adamg574 I don't have any issues with or without a can. I run the cheapest steel cased all the way through high dollar ammo no issues.
Dude, thank you so much. I avoided putting a bcm foregrip because I wasn’t sure of the law Orin this case ATFs opinion that they think is law. Sure as shit, it does say 26” or greater is good to go.
Also thank you for posting this. Currently have an 11.5, but was considering a 12.5.
So, just to be safe, you can put a foregrip on a 12.5, and have a pistol brace on it without having to register yes?
This shts so confusing it makes me nauseous
ION 11.7" Lite MLOK Handguard seems like another option
What is the weight of the buffer you are using for your 12.5?
H2 4.6oz
Why wouldn’t you suppress a 12.5 inch ? I have 10.5 and 12.5 and YHM T2 on the way. Just curious your thinking behind that ?
My thoughts were initially due to added length. But I put my foot in my mouth because I actually did wind up suppressing with an RC2. Not quite as maneuverable on things like barricades and doorways but still an excellent barrel length due to the ballistics and though less manageable than the 10.5, still quite manageable indoors
What’s the shortest barrel length you recommend for being suppressed. I want to build something short for home defense/clearing rooms/cqb.
Home defense, 10.3. Strictly If it’s indoor and close range, you can still manage enough velocity with the right round for effectiveness. I’d recommend Speer gold dot or hornady tap
I did a video explaining why
czcams.com/video/bx3nqL3V2RE/video.htmlsi=8-Ax67kRgywjAZHl
Can I add an folding adapter for the brace if its an 12.5 build? I'm not too familiar with "pistol ar".
You can add a folding adapter but because the adapter is on there, you can’t have a VFG. Once a folder is added, it changes how the OAL is measured and it would then be measured folded putting the OAL under 26”. So it would then classify the weapon as a “pistol”
@@theuncouthtruth9551 ah, okay. I guess I'll stick with a handstop then because I want the folding brace feature. Thanks for clearing that up.
I think this dude meant to make a video about what Bicep length is the best
If you WERE to suppress, what do you think is the shortest barrel length you should go?
11.5 imo
10.5 or 11.5
It's called an SBR if it has a stock on it and that requires a tax stamp if under 16" it need a minimum length of 26"
It is not called a SBR but aow
They had a bunch of M4 bbls and whacked em down where the 203 cut is at, enlarged the gas port to get enough of a gulp of air to cycle properly and the 10.3 was born.
The 11.5 was already once in service 66' - 68' but only had a small following so was back shelved. In my opinion 11.5 is the optimal bbl length for dwell time, proper gas port size, etc..
Damn. I did not know that. Thanks for the history lesson👍🏽🍻
The 10.5 was created by Colt as a Submachinegun alternative Before the 11.5” and before the M203. Colt created the 11.5 because of reliability issues on the 10.5 due to lack of dwell time. It also helped to reduce the flash and blast of the 10.5”. The short length rifles were always a specialist weapon used primarily by MACV-SOG and some other Special Forces units, as they still are today. The Military continued on with the 20” M16 until the 80s when they wanted to replace their grease guns (yes ww2 era grease guns) for vehicle crewman etc. The 14.5 M4 was then born (that length was mainly to fit the M203) The M4 was then almost universally adopted inthe late 90s as the reduction in velocity/overall effective range was determined to not be a huge deal vs the benefit of shorter length for guys enterring and exiting vehicles and for logistics of everyone using the same gun
Try ripcord industries they have a 12" rail 13.75 and they'll make it the way you want it.
Definitely a solid option. I went with FCD (centurion). Pretty happy with it too. But I hear great things about ripcord
ok I am commenting on this here since its the newest video and I figure you would see it. I am stuck and want your opinion. Stribog or Scorpion. Found them both in stock for the same price
I need a bit more information. Stribog A1 or A3 and will you be using for defense purposes?
@@theuncouthtruth9551 Stribog SP9A3 and the Scorpion EVO 3 S1 and yes it would be added to my home defense plan
@@tjwright2580 In your position, I would go with the Scorpion between the two. The A3 still has some proving to do and the initial roll out had some problems. Mine has been working great and no issues. That said, given the rock solid reliability of the scorpion, I would take the scorpion. I prefer shooting my A3 slightly more between the two as it is a little softer shooting and I prefer the aesthetics a little more, but home defense is not a factor for me as it’s not my HD weapon of choice.
In summary, go with the scorpion
I currently have both SBRd and am probably gonna revisit the two in a head to head competition video soon. That will definitely be one of the topics discussed.
@@theuncouthtruth9551 Thank you Sir I am looking forward to that video
I ran a 12.5 for a while and loved it. Still went back to 16 ultimately. I'm a long guy tho. So even tho 12.5 was a nice balance, the benefits didn't outweigh the cons. I can train past the issues 16 give me. I can't train to make 5.56 more effective out of 12.5.
Thats a great way of putting it. Hadn't thought of it like that.
Do you think the DD M4A1 RIS ii would fit with a 12.5in barrel and be suppressed too??
No. It won’t. Actual length on those are 12.25. You need at least .75” of more barrel length vs actual rail length to fit
@@theuncouthtruth9551 Bummer!! Thanks for the heads up!!
Great video.
You said you'd choose the 12.5" over the others " unless I had plans to suppress it."
Can you elaborate on this?
Initially I said this because I didn’t plan on using it suppressed. I have apparently stuck my foot in my my mouth because I have since suppressed it and it runs beautifully. Not quite as maneuverable in tight areas like a car but definitely happy with it vs the 10.5
@@theuncouthtruth9551 I've finally ordered mine!
A car may be too tight... But what are your thoughts on the 12.5" with a silencer on a home/building situation?
@@theuncouthtruth9551 What suppressors have you used for it? K cans?
Is the 2" over a 10.3-10.5" barrel really so heavy that you wouldn't bother suppressing a 12.5" barrel?
No. It’s not weight. The real area of when it’s becoming cumbersome is maneuvering. If you work a Vtac barricade, it will highlight the length difference pretty dramatically. But it’s just a suggestion. 🤷🏼♂️ a 12.5 suppressed will still be pretty amazing
@@theuncouthtruth9551 Gotcha
Damn. I bought the 11.5”😂😂. We can chrono them both one of these days at the 50
Just discovered your channel while trying to decide on another length to buy while gun bans are being floated. I built a 7” 5.56 flame thrower just for fun and about 10 years ago I built a Noveske 16” and a mix of mega arms parts. Want something between 11.5 and 13.7 to eventually suppress but be an overall do everything. Any opinions on PWS and their 11.5” mk111 mod 2 or bcm 12.5? Mk18 was a dream gun but not worth the price or to find right now
Me personally, I’d go with the BCM 12.5. I wound up suppressed mine. Even though I put my shoe in my mouth I. This video because honest to god I had no intention but I did it anyway. It’s definitely not as maneuverable as the 10.5 but not to the degree I would be concerned. Gonna do some supressed shooting on a Vtac board and from a car with both the 12.5 vs 10.5 and do a head to head. I’ll be doing a video on it when I get time. But if the goal is a good close/ mid range there is too many benefits of 12.5 to go with a mk18. You will be happier. That’s what I would get.
Thanks for this video. I was feeling kinda bad about purchasing a CMMG with a 12 in barrel instead of an 8”, but your video helped a lot
im looking at doing a mini recce build, using a 12.5 barrel and a 1-6 scope, would that be a good option, also what hand guard would you recommend. I may end up suppressing it in the future so I would need enough clearance for that
Depends on what you want to spend. 12.5 premium barrel would be DD, solely for the purpose of a high round count because it’s CHF. I decided on Ballistic Advance. Both my 12.5 are BA and are phenomenally accurate. And as durable and well made as it gets for button forged barrels. For a 12.5 suppressed, you will need generous clearance at the threads. I recommend the DD DDM4 (which is on the gun pictured, or if you want less gap, check out the Larue tactical line of quads. If looking for Mlok, I suggest first the forward controls design RHF 11.5, second would be from Midwest industries. Geissele is my usual go to but 12.5 isn’t the most common length unfortunately so options are slightly limited.
1-6 scope, I’d go with vortex viper if you don’t wanna break the bank. If you want to spend a bit more, the Razor is basically the gold standard of premium optics. If you want budget, primary arms ACSS all day.
@@theuncouthtruth9551 okay cool! have you heard anything about the rosco barrels? im debating between that and the BA barrel. ive been looking at the midwest industries 11.5 combat rail. they seem a little slim, but I guess they would be good in the hands. will the midwest 11.5 give me enough clearance at the threads? im also looking at the viper pst gen 2 1-6, it looks like a great scope
@@jonathanmiller5701 viper scope is excellent. Can’t go wrong. Specifically for the 5-600 category. Clear glass. Daylight bright reticle. My video on the P4XI covers this. I prefer the P4XI because I get the 6x wasn’t as necessary as clearer glass but that was when the P4XI was also cheaper. Now I would take the viper given the price today. I can’t speak from experience but from the ton of research I have done, Rosco and Ballistic advantage are directly rivaled and comparable in every way. I am personally not a fan of pencil barrel or thin cut because of the sacrifice in durability during volume fire. Government profile is my go to and less flex in the barrel. But I suppose there is a ton of varying perspectives. The way is see it, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I prefer BA over Rosco simply due to longer reputation. That said, I have heard nothing but good things from Rosco. Hope this helps 👍🏻 As far as rails , look at the specs sheet for the SPECIFIC length. If memory serves correctly MI has true to spec handguards and you will have no problems with clearance. I only say that because most manufacturers are roughly.5 inch off longer on exact rail length. But yes. The MI rail should work no problem 👍🏻
@@theuncouthtruth9551 awesome thanks for that! I will keep you posted on how the build turns out!
@@jonathanmiller5701 check out criterion barrels. And I would get the vortex razor hd on a 193 scalarworks mount
May I ask why exactly you dont like the idea of a 12.5 with a silencer? .. thats what im personally working towards building in the future.
Nothing in particular. It just a matter of cqb. Working doorways and obstruction with the added length can be cumbersome. A 12.5 barrel suppressed may be more unmanageable than most are comfortable with. Me personally, I’d rather have a 10.3 suppressed than a 12.5. Simply because of how I train. To highlight this, try out a 9 hole drill on a vtac barricade. That little bit makes a bigger difference than you would think. But if that’s what you want, absolutely. Build what suit you. Not some asshat like me on CZcams. Lol
@@theuncouthtruth9551 well you seem more knowledgeable than me so I take reputable people's opinions into consideration when customizing any one my firearms. Iv only been really getting into guns for the past year or so and although i'v learned a lot there is clearly always so much more i do not know. The reason personally I was thinking 12.5" specifically is i assumed the advantages shooting mid distances is a lot greater than a 10.3" and i was thinking about maybe using the Omega 36m silencer since it can be put into a full size or slightly smaller configuration... But since you have both do you happen to know the effectiveness of them out to say... 3 to 400 meters max? Will a 12.5 still produce a lethal shot? Will a 10.3 do the same? Or are they only good up to 100 meters max?
@@thatliberalwithagun3122 a lot depends on the load type but it’s a rather complicated issue. The round typically needs to stay above 2400 fps to cause cavitation during yaw when it impacts the organs. Ideally 2700 fps causes fragmentation of the round barring plastic tip ammo like Hornady TAP that assist with fragment and disperses the kinetic energy of the round is so important. If you watch gel block testing, high velocity rounds will cause a bubble (cavitation) when it impacts the gel. This is what causes the most damage as it rapidly displaces tissue and essentially liquifies tissue and organs. As the bullet drops below 2400, this is significantly reduced and you will see more of an in and out wound channel. I may actually do a video later today explaining in depth 🤔 this is a lot to write. Lol to answer your question, I trust a 12.5 with the right ammo to get the job done at 300. A 10.5? nope.
@@theuncouthtruth9551 Awesome! Thanks for the help. Thats something iv been trying to figure out for a while now
@@theuncouthtruth9551 how do you feel about the ops Inc / Allen engineering style silencer when it comes to maintaining a shorter profile?