What most people get WRONG about MIXING in MID SIDE (M/S)
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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Mixing with Mid Side (MS) processing is a very powerful technique that can make or break your music. Many tutorials show how mid side can be used to specifically adjust elements that are just on the sides or just in the middle of a mix, but it that really the case?
This video explains what Mid Side encoding actually is and clears up one of the biggest misconceptions that so many people have, but just don't realize.
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#MIDSIDE #HOMESTUDIO #TUTORIALS
⌚TIMESTAMPS⌚
00:00 - Mid Side (M/S) Misunderstanding
00:13 - What most people get wrong about Mid Side processing
00:50 - How Mid Side Encoding Works
02:38 - What Mid and Side encoding sounds like in a stereo file audio file
04:41 - How mid/side processing can impact your music
Listening to this guy worth your time i swear, his content is a game changer.
Thank you so much! That means a lot 💙
Thanks for explaining this well Bobby 🍻
I didn’t realize I needed this info until I heard it. Thanks!
Great video, dude!
6 minutes to explain what I've been looking at for hours lol. Well done!
I'm so glad I've now heard someone confirm this. As every time I read someone's explanation of M/S it has never ever made sense to me. I mean I understand what they are saying, but when I try to work out what would be happening in M/S encoding and decoding, what they say isn' t the results that I come to in my workings out.
This explains exactly why. They are explaining the process results incorrectly! Only the stuff that cancels out completely when doing L+R will not be in the mid. But things panned hard left, or hard right (just as an example) will still be there.
Nice tip :) Thank you!
I keep forgetting that. Thanks for the reminder and clear explanation.
thanks, clarifying.
Thank you for putting fact to what I already suspected.
I've just started dabbling in "sum-indifference" processing. And right away I noticed I was hearing the split channels in the middle mix faintly. Thus.... not a true channel separation.
I use M/S for one thing only, which effectively widens the mix without changing anything else.
I send kick, bass, snare, and lead or vocal (whatever is center-panned) directly to the output. Everything else (all elements that have some width or are panned off center, plus the reverb sends), those all go through a bus. On that bus are two EQs in a row. The first EQ is Mid only, and it scoops 6 dB at 1310 Hz with a Q of 0.12. The second EQ is Side only, and boosts 6 dB at 1310 Hz/ 0.12 Q. So the side EQ is sonically the reverse of the mid EQ with regards to frequency. They cancel each other's change to the spectrum out, meaning no change to freq response.
But what they do is open up the center at ~400 Hz to 2K Hz which is where the bulk of the lead, the snare, the higher harmonics of the bass and the kick (such as the beater) live, subtly to allow the center-panned instruments to have less competition for the center. It increases the wideness of the mix without changing the levels at all, of anything. If you were to collapse everything to mono, it would sound exactly the same with the EQ's in or with them bypassed.
So simply put, it scoops the middle and moves what is there that are 'accompanying' instruments more to the sides. The things this lowers in the center are restored by the second EQ, but they are restored more to the L and R. Since the amount scooped out is restored, yet restored more on the sides than to the middle, this makes all accompanying instruments a bit wider, but the overall volume of everything remains unchanged. And this makes the full mix wider while opening up that center for the lead, snare, kick, and bass.
You can open the center up even a bit more by placing a compressor on that same bus with a sidechain input of the lead, and another for any solo instruments, which then duck the accompanying instruments subtly (you won't hear pumping) about 5 dB. That allows the lead and solo instruments to sit better in the mix without having to be turned up quite so far, bc they then have less competition whenever they play a note.
It's okay to be skeptical of this, except for one thing-it works.
!!! I'm gonna have to try this 😲
I understand what you are teaching. I don’t understand how knowing this information is relevant for mixing strategy.
Nice 👍 thanks for this 👍
This Is very very useful
Could you get true middle by flipping the phase of the sides and summing back to the mid?
“From now on, call it sum and difference”
Noted. Good stuff to know! 📝
Wish I could like this multiple times...
I would like to hear your thoughts on mono-compatibility considerations in stereo mastering. To the point you made towards the end of your video, regarding the collapse of the stereo image with too much EQ boost on the mid channel, balancing mono-compatibility while maintaining stereo depth sounds challenging. Thoughts?
Great question. There will be tradeoffs for everything we do when mixing or mastering. The biggest thing is to trust our ears and do everything in our power to serve the song, even if it's untraditional.
But in terms of stereo depth, that is usually accomplished in the songwriting/composition and mixing phase moreso than mastering in my experience. There are tools that offer mono compatibility. One trick I like to use that is also mono compatible is to simply increase the volume of the "difference" or side channel. But very quickly it can move the stereo components in front of the main center elements in the song, so you have to be very careful. Hope that helps!
I like mid/side processing during mix on troublesome panned individual tracks, cut the low end of mids and slightly boost in side at similar freq can clear up space for the bass elements in the center because the lows of the instrument will be panned away from center. So this usually helps me with mono compatability, because when you listen in mono these troublesome tracks no longer swamp the lows when in mono... Although my opinion probably shouldnt mean much tbh just a thought 👍
based
Ackchyuallyyyyy... It's not by 0.5, it's by 0.707. 😉 Just messing around with ya, lol. Dunno if you saw Matthew's comment on Facebook about it recently, they are a much smarter person than I am. 🤣
For reference (courtesy of Matthew), the technical equation for mid/side is:
M = (L+R)*√2/2 and S = (L-R) * √2/2.
This is a great point and I should have done a better job explaining. It's a fine line using more simplistic language at the expense of what is technically correct. Glad though that you made this comment so others that want more details have this as a resource.
I still need this explained like I'm 5 lol
I've been trying to explain this to people but the wrong understanding is ingrained. If the DSP was available to create 3 channels, pure mid, left side, and right side, it would be great. Simple to recreate the LR pair as well. I don't know of a method either in the time or frequency domains to do this. Thanks for this video.
So help me understand.
Pure mid is MID, and the left side + right side = SIDE, no?
Am I wrong?
All jokes aside though, I'm really glad you made this video. Mid/side processing can be very powerful in mastering, but it can also very quickly destroy a mix.
It can? Lol
@@kingkyoga9263it absolutely can. Though, many things can destroy a mix when done heavy-handedly on the master.
Bobby, Do you eliminate some of your low end information on the sides using a MB M/S EQ in your mixes? I noticed that if I take out too much low end from the sides the mix starts sound disconnected. Is there any formula for this? or just use your ears?
Depends on the song. Sometimes I do! You have to be careful because it can pull all the bass out of your toms. No hard rules here but I tend to pull out 100 Hz or less out of the sides. You could also consider using a low shelf instead of a HPF. Hope that helps!
i would add that the reason some of the “sides” end up in the mids in a very noticeable amount is usually ‘cause these elements are hard-panned left or right.
so if you typically rely on M/S processing during the mastering stage and prefer to stick to this approach it would make sense to avoid panning anything hard L/R during the production/mixing stages unless you absolutely have to sonically (and if you have a control over those stages of course)
that’s also why M/S processing mostly only makes things more confusing and unpredictable on LCR type of mixes
If something is hard-panned L or R, it WILL NOT show up in the middle on a Mid EQ (or a Side EQ) bc the math will prevent that. You could play with a Mid EQ placed on a hard-panned instrument track all day, and whatever you do will have zero effect as to where that instrument ends up in the panorama. The reason? If we think of the level in the L channel as '1' (full level) and the level in the R channel as '0' (no level), a Mid EQ can only change the combination of L+R.
If L = 1 and R = 0, L+R still = 1, regardless how you adjust a Mid EQ. If L = 0 and R = 1, L+R will also still = 1, regardless how you adjust a Mid EQ. IOW, the panorama won't change at all, and the level won't change unless you mess with the full level output. It will remain fully hard-panned.
You can also turn knobs 'til blue in the face on a Side EQ placed on such a track, and it will always have the same result. Why? Because if L = 1 and R = 0, L-R (which is what a Side EQ does) is still going to be 1, regardless. And you can probably guess what the result will be if L = 0 and R = 1.
That's about the simplest math you can imagine. So there is nothing 'confusing or unpredictable' about what M/S is capable of if you understand what this gentleman is saying about what they actually do. It's not even math. It's 2nd-grade arithmetic: Mid being a version of A+B=C, and Side being a version of A-B=C.
What could be confusing (if you let it) is that even though it's referred to as equalization, which we think of as independent control over sections of the frequency response, M/S is not about freq response at all. It's only about panorama. If it effects freq response, it only does that dependent upon where something is panned. Mid effects what is center-panned, Side effects what is hard-panned, and both effect everything panned partly off center, but how far they are panned off center is what determines how much Side EQ will effect it or how much Mid Eq will effect it, and closer to center will be effected more by Mid than Side, while farther from center will be effected more by Side than Mid. It all goes back to that simple math: L+R and L-R.
They might change the levels (but not the pan) of a hard-panned track, but that is not what a M or S EQ is for. We have channel-gain sliders and regular EQs to handle that. Using a M/S EQ to change frequency response is like trying to get orthodontic advice from a plumber. Or plumbing advice from an orthodontist. The right tool is what should be used for the right job. M/S will never be the right tool for LCR.
Great video.
Glad you found it helpful!
TDR Nova and their other products call it Sum and Diff
That's because Fabien is awesome!
@@rocketman374 He really is though.
I always cut 60hz on side ...
Divide by two 😉
In another words, do you mix right from the start, so you don't play around "salto mortale game" with M/S that will destroy your mix density and coherence (glue if you want) reversing your mix in to "amateur down to earth" sounding again. it's a 90% sales gimmick ... It's used only for reparing really bad mixes (you have no other choice - the stereo track is all you have) and similar stuff. It looks logical to use it and easy - you have an instant results (mirage) but it's counterintuitive thing ... Wait for a day or two and listen again = crap in 90% cases. :))
This isn't exactly accurate. Part of what is being stated is just semantics.
Calling it M/S or Sum/Difference (or Lateral/Vertical in a vinyl mastering & Fairchild context) is really a distinction without a difference.
Also, what's being said is Only true if what's on the left and right is Identical, then it will be summed +6dB.
Or put another way, only the parts of the signal on the Left and Rights that Are identical will be summed to +6dB MAX.
Parts of the 2 waveforms that are Similar will add up to something Between Unity and +6db
Things that are 180-degrees out of phase on the Left and Right will perfectly cancel when summed.
Things that are partially out of phase will only partially cancel.
There are Many videos here on CZcams on how Mid-Side Matrixes work.
But the important thing to remember is that it is Virtually Perfect.
If you use one MS Matrix (as an Encoder) immediately followed by another one (as a Decoder), you will come right back to the Original Left Right Signals.
It's what you can do With them and In-Between them that makes them powerful.
But I would have to respectfully disagree with the premise of this video and say that, generally speaking:
Most people get it RIGHT.
Mid-Side really does take a Left & Right signal and matrix it out to the Middle and Side Information, for your processing pleasure.
I guess if you're trying to say that there is Still some information from the Sides in the Middle and vice-versa, okay...
But so what?
I fail to see the point that justifies this ALL CAPS video warning people from what they basically had right, before watching a video that confused them into thinking they were wrong.
What am I missing here?
Easy to fix, center is (mid - side)
No, mid - side = right, mid + side = left. Centre extraction is a bit more complicated.
Technically (M+S)/2 and (M-S)/2 if you're encoding LR to MS at unity gain, otherwise you'd get 2L and 2R on the outputs.
Still, what’s your point? You never gave any info on how to isolate the mids and not the sum. Or are you just making a video to clarify a term that annoys you
One can't isolate the mid channel - that is the entire point of the video. Your comment is literally "What most people get wrong about mixing in mid side".
@@RaytownProductions ohh okay thanks