MID/SIDE RECORDING acoustic Guitar - WHY BOTHER? Because it's amazing - for some stuff
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- My SESSION GUITAR TRACKS & PRODUCTION: www.jonwright.co.uk
GEAR USED IN THIS VIDEO:
Martin J-40
Bock 195 (the 'mid' microphone)
Shinybox 46MXL (the 'side' microphone)
DAV BG1 (preamp)
K&M microphone stands
Sennheiser HD600 headphones
Valhalla VintageVerb - Hudba
The production quality of this channel is stupidly good. Wtf. Killer killer stuff here! I can’t wait to try this out in a session tomorrow
Thanks man
Very nice explanation of M/S. For those who use Logic, you can record the Mid mic to the left side of a stereo linked track, and the Side mic to the right side, and then use the Direction Mixer plug-in to decode the M/S signal. That way you don’t need to duplicate the Side track and phase flip one copy, and you don’t need to create a Summing Stack. You can control the Side level with the Width control in the plug-in.
Top tip! Thanks!
This is news to me but makes sense. Thank you for sharing that with us!
I started doing this for the first time about 5 years ago. Needless to say, it changed my life, literally!. I had always found my previous guitar recordings to lack that feel of space.
Amazing! It's quite something when you get it right
Thank you! Best way to conclude this year. Beautiful playing and teaching!
You're very welcome, and I appreciate the kind words. A belated HNY to you!
What a great clear explanation of mid/side, Jon. Thanks for that
Glad it was helpful!
This is a brilliant way to track acoustics. It really captures the fullness of the tone and allows you to direct it at the sweet spot of the acoustic. This is great man!
Cheers Tico! Agreed in full!
This is the best explanation and demonstration of M/S technique I've seen. Slick production, too. Thank you!
Cheers Chris!
Never seen this mic arrangement before. I'm learning so much from you 🎉👏. And the playing is so soothing
Awesome! Thank you!
After watching this, how could I not subscribe?! Your vids are so effortlessly watchable......perfect blend of charisma, knowledge and talent. Glad to have found you.....thanks old bean!
I feel so seen! Thanks old bean
Best mid side explanation video I’ve seen -Thank You!
Thanks very much! Glad it was clear 😊
Sweet demo. Concise and clear and stereo
Thanks man
'First Take Jon' I have never heard that before, it made me laugh and rewind the video to hear it again. Delightful! Thank you for the explanation of mid side recording and the humour.
My pleasure! Thanks for saying hi 👍
This is so cool!!! I'm definitely going to be using this in most if not all recordings I do. Thank you
You might get a similar effect... but it's not mid-side. The fig-8 mic is not in mono though, it's picking up from both side of the ribbon. The processing just allows you to separate the signals.
Liked and subscribed because this is the best guitar recording example I've seen and heard on CZcams. Great explanation and more importantly the finished product sounds amazing
This warms my heart - thank you
Great video, already used this technique many times but stayed the 10 mins just because I enjoyed the way you explained it. And that bock mic sounds just fantastic!
This made my day. Glad it’s bearable for some without the need for the info!
So great to hear something I built with my hands used so effectively. Cheers from Seattle
Ulrigg! What a thrill - how nice to meet you. Thanks for making such nice gear!
Well explained and nice demonstration! I know this wasn't covered but a lot has to be said for the sound of that guitar and the light touch you use when strumming. It contributes enormously to that really sweet, wispy tone you're getting. BTW - The U195 was one of the best acoustic guitar mics I ever owned. I miss it!!
That's very kind. Yes, it's a good guitar! U195 FTW - underrated...
Great job man! Perfect content. Light, sound, voice!
Thank you sir
This is pure gold information ! Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
This guy is so humble and smart. Good teacher as well.
Thanks very much. I mean, I am SUPER humble - it’s one of my many great qualities 😉
Beautiful. Thank you Jon ☺️
My pleasure!
This was really interesting..enjoyed this mate. Will give it a go x
Spent ages learning this via S. O. S. articles and forums. Great to see a tutorial. It’ll help me fast track through it again.
“Old Martin!” ...subbed.
Thanks for being here and glad the channel is provide useful to you. Cheers!
@@JonWrightMusicTV Dude - your channel is fab. Really succinct and to the point. Up there with Kush’s. Keep sharing your wisdom and knowledge!!! It’s truly appreciated and received with open arms.
@@thefeelcompany Wow. That's extremely kind - I love Gregory!
Great channel with knowledgeable presenter! Very handful tip, definitely gonna try it. Subscribed immediately!
Thanks very much 👍
Great video, Jon! That technique is really useful and it sounds lovely.
Ah, thank you. It's a good old guitar
Lots of great tips here. Thanks 🙏🏼
Thank you!
great sound wide and clear
Thanks for listening
Very nice breakdown of the technique.
Glad you enjoyed it!
3 years later, I’m just now seeing this video. Great stuff. I have guitar parts that could benefit from this technique. Thank you for sharing!
My pleasure! Only 5 months later I saw your comment!
very nice sound!!
Thank you 😋
Excellent. Thanks very much for this tip. Tried it with 2 AKG414’s and got a stunning result with an otherwise ordinary sounding old Yamaha acoustic. 😎👍
Amazing, that exactly what I’m talking about! Love the 414.
That's almost exactly what I'm doing today! Warm Audio WA-14 for side then Neumann TLM 103 for mid.
Damn sounds amazing. Lovely playing
Thanks matey
Wonderfully done and great explanations. I have only used mid side stuff for my drum rooms so far, might give it a try on my acoustic next time.
Thank you - glad it was useful!
@@JonWrightMusicTV It definitely was. My videos are less tech focused than yours, I think, but your presentation is so on point, every beginner should be able to follow on this. Great job, man!
This sounds amazing! I am definitely going to give this a go.
Thanks - glad it was helpful!
This is a great video, you’re smashing it mate. And this is a tip I am literally going to try now 😀👌
Thanks Ed. Go for it - you will be the second or third person to try it (that I know of) within hours of the video going up so you’re in good company! Look forward to hearing how it works out 💪
Very nice sound. I like this M/S stuff.
Thanks. Agreed!
so great
Great stuff. I love Mid/side!
Thanks Eric! Me too 👍
Great acoustic recording tip. Thanks.
Glad you liked it!
Damn first real trick I have seen in a minute
Nice
Really well done all around. subbed.
Thanks man
REALLY NICE
Cheers!
Very pro video and audio quality.
Glad you think so!
The quality here is damn!!!! I hope you takeoff soon!
Thanks man 👍
Great tutorial never saw this technique before!
Glad it was helpful!
Cheers Jon, great explanation and gorgeous sound. Go raibh míle maith agat!
Thanks very much, glad you enjoyed!
Truly out of the box❤️💯 please avoid those critics, what sounds good is good❤️💯
Thank you, much appreciated!
Great video
Thanks Carl
Thank you for this video. It was very helpful.
I'm so glad!
Awesome video Jon, just found your channel. You may not remember me as I do a bunch of different stuff but I run a Country music event in Essex called Nashville Calling, you and Liv played one of our Epping shows in 2019 (I did/do sound that night too). I converted one of my outbuildings into a little home studio 18 months ago and and learning some stuff. I'll give this technique a go as results look very interesting. Good luck with your channel, you got a great way of presenting too. So keep it going
Yes I remember! Of course - that was a fun night. Thanks for comments and good luck with the studio and recording!
Yeppp that sounded great!
Thanks man!
I do this regularly on acoustic guitar. I’ve also been doing this on electric guitars. Two different ways. One way is just like acoustic version but in front of the amp. The other is splitting the guitar and sending it to two amps with a cardioid mic on one amp and a ribbon or figure 8 mic on the other. Makes for a big sound.
Trying to get my head about the electric/dual amp miking. Do you do the whole MS thing with the two recordings? I'm wondering about phase etc if the mics are not in the same place.
Thank you for the clear explanation of this recording technique!
My pleasure my treasure
Finally! Someone who gets it! Bravo! This should be ear opening and eye-opening, for others. Thank you! LMAO
Yes I have enjoyed using the MS microphone technique for almost 40 years now. One of the great things about it. Is being able to adjust the stereo width. From ultra wide to, ultra narrow. Or mono as we call it. Middle as it is. Monophonic stereo. Of a single sound source coming out of both speakers, equally. Mono as in middle as in Monaural.
And of course the beauty of this technique. You are pointing the microphone. That is the primary pickup microphone. Directly at the sound source. Precisely where you want it.
Then the side microphone. It has such an incredible mid null point. That it's only picking up the acoustic ambience to the left and to the right. But combining both that left and right. Into a single channel. Called the, Difference Channel. And that is actually the way in which, FM broadcasting. Was made compatible. On both stereo and mono, receivers. FM is not broadcast as left and right channels. It's broadcast as, Middle and Side or Mono and Difference.
So it really does not require 3 channels at all. It only requires the original 2. But from that. You actually derive, three separate channels. Left-Center-Right. And the left channel and right channel information is decoded through, multiplexing. In other words it's something of a carrier wave. That has 2 channels embedded, within it. That requires the Middle Mono, channel. To extract. Those other 2 separate channels left and right.
It was also a technique used when recording to some, NAB, tape cartridges. Back in the good old days before digital. With the stereo was suffering greatly from head, azimuth, misalignment. And that would sound terrible in mono. Creating a muddy sound. But if you encoded your tape, for stereo. In that MS manner. Regardless of head azimuth error. That would simply make the stereo imaging going wider and narrower. And was popular to use in that manner, also. I use it for all sorts of stereo effects.
Now to do this truly the correct way. You're supposed to have essentially, matching cardioid and bidirectional, microphones. With matching capsules. Essentially. So as to be, true to form. But really any cardioid and bidirectional microphone can be used together. And get this great ethereal sounding 3 channels of stereo. With 100% mono compatibility! Recordable on only 2 channels. Ain't that somethin'? What will they think of next?
So great to see and hear somebody finally using this fabulous technique of stereo MICing. Recording jazz drums with an MS overtop. And a bass drum microphone. It is absolutely, elegant sounding. Rudy Van Gelder would be proud.
But yes sir re-Bob. Using that center mono capacitor a.k.a. condenser microphone. Coupled with a Symmetrical, bidirectional ribbon. And I stress, Symmetrical. Because! There are a number of, modern day, asymmetrical, figure of 8, ribbon microphones. They do not have the same response on the front side as the backside. They are both different. And while you could do MS with one of those also. I wouldn't know which side to advise you on. To have which polar tailored response on which side? And how would one determine that? With an, Asymmetrical, bidirectional, ribbon microphone?
So it all comes down on what kind of bidirectional ribbon or condenser microphone you got. Though, I must admit. I love using a pair of Beyer M-160 coupled with the M-130, short geometry, dual ribbon, microphones. As they each have 2 parallel to one another. And they sound really sweet as an MS stereo pair. And a great way to capture a Symphony Orchestra.
It's a lovely technique also for recording vocals. And then you can play some cool stereo tricks. Like adding a little limiting or compression to your Side a.k.a. Difference channel. And then amazing at the enhanced stereo imaging you get. It's wild! Because you are merely enhancing the stereo information. Not the mono information. Of a single sound source. And that's hard for someone to wrap their head around. But that's the way to get a real stereo vocal. Where the singer is singing squarely into the Middle Mono, cardioid, capsule. And not pointing off to the left or to the right. But straight on.
So I thank you, sir. For getting this all, absolutely right. As I am part of the MS enforcement police. Making sure no one is Amiss with their MS.
In fact I am so much into MS. The doctors told me I took it too far. As I loved it so much. I came down with it. But that's a different kind of MS. That kills you. It's going to kill me. Not the microphone technique. No. The real thing. The real MS. The Multiple Sclerosis, of MS. The kind you don't want.
Yeah, so it's not really requiring 3 channels. But it does on your audio console/mixer and/or in software. It requires 3. To pull this off. Otherwise it can actually be done. With a pair of matrix wired audio transformers. Which is the way it was first accomplished. It was a little box you would patch in your M channel and your S channel. And out came stereo. Isn't that amazing! Keeping it restricted to the original 2 channels only.
I think you could've explained this a little bit better. But that's just me. You explained enough. You got it. Now you can run with it.
Good job old boy
RemyRAD
Wow. What a gold mine of info that comment is! I feel quite a sense of relief that you've seen this and signed off on it. Sorry to hear of the MS, I hope it's manageable. I learned from another commenter that Logic has a way of processing a mono file to extract the stereo, as your matrix wired transformers would (so, 2 tracks only). Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and taking the time to feed back on the video.
Thanks for the tips man !!
Really helps to just have a starting point :)
My pleasure my treasure
Really interesting to hear about! Keep it up ☺️🎸
Glad you enjoyed!
I've been looking for a good answer re: how to mix mid'side into a bigger mix, or if it's even worth recording mid/side for an acoustic in a big mix, and you answered this question beautifully. Thank you!
It’s a good question! Thanks for your feedback, so good to know it helped someone!
Mid/side recording......interesting, I'll try that next time I'm recording acoustic, without reverb that's a personal choice I don't like reverb on acoustic guitar, that Martin acoustic you have is absolutely gorgeous, sounds great, keep on groovin' duder peace and love to you Brother Man ✌️😎
Thank you sir!
Nicely done. Have a feeling that Martin would sound amazing recorded onto a knackered old cassette deck:)
Thanks mate. Yes - this is an issue. I'll visiting this topic at some point because as you suggest the guitar does help things quite a bit...
Subbed, super informative and high quality content!
Thank you for the kindly comment, glad you liked it!
Nice video Mr One Take. I do similar things, more often taking one side of a stereo recording and collapsing it to mono. Mono is very appealing, with music coming down the middle and the effects going into stereo. I have not however used the phase reverse technique from a mono source. You can do a lot with audio if you had a stereo source, creating a similar result by converting 1/2 to mono and doubling the second side for stereo, processing it separately. I’ve often heard mid/side referred to as mono/stereo, and what this has helped me understand is the 5.1 surround sound. Your mono source is up front and your stereo comes into the rear speakers. Thanks for the pro tips, much appreciated. -Jim
My pleasure, and thank you for the feedback. That mono compatibility is so useful.
amazing work.. the comp part is such an imp point. Learnt a lot, i think M/S is imp tool to have in studio. Just deciding on a great bamboo flute microphone these days, will checkout other videos on your channel..
Thank for watching. I think my channel needs more bamboo flute tech videos.
@@JonWrightMusicTV I finally settled on Austrian Audio OC818 pair. These are 2 microphones in 1, so 4 total, and can do mid side, blumlein etc. Great Value.
Mid-side is great, but I think it's often very easy and tempting to make it way too wide in the mix. I'd say a good starting point would be to imagine the size of the sound source, keeping in mind the distance it was recorded from / where you wanna put it in the soundstage, and trying to get the mid-side balance to match that.
I think it depends on the music. If it's a folk record and you want everything to sound fairly natural, sure. But for a dramatic rock record, or pop, wide and weird can work.
Very nice. Cheers!
Thank you! Cheers!
So cool!
Cheers!
Really good vid. Thanks
You’re welcome sir
That's brilliant! My next acoustic rec will def be this way. Just recently got a ldc with switchable patterns, so that will probably be it's maiden rec, together with I guess the Sennheiser 421 for warmth. Or my sdc for clarity. Or nicer still perhaps put the Sennheiser on my own gave sweet spot (slightly pointed up from just under the bridge to the right of my strum hand, pointing at the soundboard right of the bridge in direction of the hole and then the sdc at your sweet spot (wich is new to me) to make it a stereo pair in addition to the 8.
Lovely options - I hope you enjoy experimenting and get some exciting sounds.
great explanation thank you sir
You are so welcome!
Great sound!
I've used a MKH 418-S to mic choral field recordings for a documentary, not the quietest mic, but I felt it would give some latitude in post mix.
Oooh, interesting! Did it work as you hoped?
Amazing tutorial ! Thanks !! I'll try this asap
My pleasure!
Tried this today, sounded amazing!
So glad to hear that - happy it's working for you Jacob!
Great info to know. Thank you
Pleasure!
Thanks, gonna try this.
Enjoy - hope it's useful to you!
Lovely sounding recording, I've never liked stereo pairs on an acoustic.
Same here!
I know this video is a couple years old, but thought I'd mention... Imo, the issue with this method is that if you mono sum the audio, the "side" tracks disappear again, like it was before you panned them. I think it's important to build a stereo image that does not disappear when listening in mono. It may be a better option, rather than inverting the phase of the duplicate track, pan them left and right as you did, but bump the duplicate track back 10ms or so, making sure they're in phase, but the time delay gives the stereo image instead.
kind of a Haas effect, thats what i do, except i do unique left and right takes, playing them as much close to each other. Not sure, if thats a good technique..
What you're describing is not mid side at all though - it's cool to do, it's just not MS and you're not getting the 'direction' of the side mic and it's a different sound.
I guess you have to consider how important the mono sum mix actually IS. IN any case, MS gives you a solid centre that doesn't disappear in mono at all - you just lose the width. En hindi language not sure what happens with your technique when listening in mono.
Subscribed 👍
Super informative, well explained, sounds lush.
And, I'm just about to drop cash on first mic(s) for a home set up, so perfect timing.
Welcome! I'm glad it was helpful - hope the new purchase works out
Tip: If your mid/side recordings turn out lopsided (like in this video; more volume on the left channel) you can cheat a little bit and use the S1 Imager from Waves to balance the left and right channels.
dude thank you. I have the DAV BG1 and also a Art Pro MPA 2 which has a Mid/Side Matrix feature.
Love the BG-1!
J40 - such a dream. Will try a MID Recording with mine (from 1994) today.
My brother! About the same year!
Brilliant
Cheers!
Great vid man thank you!
Thanks - appreciate that!
Many thx. Gonna give this a go.
My pleasure
Excellent video ! The guitar tends to sound too wide for my taste, but when I lay my hands on a figure 8 mic, I'll try this on a saxophone.
Thanks! It’s probably a bit wide for some. I was trying to make the stereo effect obvious for the purposes of demonstration. Hope it works out on sax, should be interesting?
As mentioned in the video, the level of the side signal allows you to control the width of the sound, from a lot (and more) to none at all.
This was great thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
100% doing. Thank you!!
Pleasure
thanks, I'm trying it on a guitar cabinet, you need all the sound you can get as the only guitar in a trio!
Oh, interesting! I can't imagine you'll get much in the way of a stereo image since the source is mono (I am assuming)... but if the room is big or interesting and you're far away enough you might get something. For big trio sounds bi-amping might be a nice way to go...
I discovered recently that you can save yourself a bunch of hassle editing multiple-track comps in Logic by adding all the tracks to a VCA group while editing. You then go into the Group Settings panel and tick "editing", any changes between comps will then be made across all tracks in the VCA group (though it breaks if the number of takes in each folder are different)
Absolutely - thanks for sharing that tip
Cool. Old prof of mine showed a similar trick in the past.
Probably the same trick!
Bok is nicely centred, but when blending the mid sides the left channel has more body (Probably the side facing the sound hole I guess) which gives more prominence to that side.
Exactly correct
You can even get a greater sense of space with this technique when recording acoustic guitar by having some diffuser sound panels on each side of the guitar for the side capsules to pick up the diffused sound.
Oooh, interesting
Well-presented tutorial - thank you! However, when I hear the stereo recording you produced for this video, it sounds like the rare occasion when I have inadvertently hooked up one of my loudspeakers out-of-phase with the other loudspeaker. It adds a certain tension that isn't pleasant. If you offset the duplicated track with a slight time shift/delay, and keep the hard Left and Right panning as you showed, it helps maintain that wonderful spacious stereo image, but it feels more natural/realistic - like sound reflections coming off different walls of a room - they don't arrive at your ear at exactly the same time.
Can I ask which part you’re talking about - a time stamp? To me the full part sounds as it should and the meters show it completely in phase (100%) in phase before reverb. Maybe it’s the stereo reverb you’re not enjoying.
@@JonWrightMusicTV It's especially noticeable when you introduce the panning Left and Right on the normal and inverted tracks, before you apply the reverb (around the 6:00 timestamp). It's less noticeable once the reverb is applied (as heard in the intro, and after you apply the reverb later on in the video). I'm suggesting that, rather than inverting the duplicated track, duplicate it and adjust the timing of both side tracks relative to each other, and relative to the mid track. That technique tends to provide a sense of space by mimicking the echoes one would expect to hear in a real club/hall. In fact, you can control the sense of space (the size of the room) by changing the size of the timing shift you apply to (either, or both of) the side channel(s), relative to the mid channel. To me, that tends to sound more pleasing/natural than the inverted channel technique. It's similar to the technique explained by Pete Celi in the Strymon Deco tutorial video (czcams.com/video/ST8pp4HN554/video.html), except we're not interested or using the "wobble" to cause a chorus effect in this case. But you can definitely hear the sense of space that the Deco pedal can produce by changing the timing of the signals in the left and right channels. To each his own, of course. Just want to reiterate the great video production - thanks for doing that!
No worries, I think it's an interesting discussion! What you're describing is an option for sure - though not one I've tried - but it isn't M/S. It's something else entirely I think. Thanks for the suggestion, I might give it a try...
nice!
you're nice
Really enjoyed that, thanks :-)
Glad to hear it!
I just learned what a Track Stack is... :p
also nice playing!
Now you know!
Thank you for a great how-to with beautiful reflective guitar piece. Do you think it would fit a folkish guitar and singer with voice in the middle wrapped by guitar?
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it. Yes, I think it would be ideal for that purpose and the benefit of MS is that you have as much, or as little of the stereo with as you like while capturing the ideal guitar tone with the mid mic. Good luck!
Great video Jon. I've a question: The only 2 mics I have are an SM57 and a Rode NT2-A. Would this method work ok with these? The Rode can be set to the fgure of 8, but of course the SM57 is a dynamic mic. I'll be recording pretty lively rhythm just to support vocals. It doesn't need to sound amazing because, let's face it, I'll probably be asking you to do the guitars in the end anyway as I play guitar like a pianist.
This is a great question. Obviously the answer is partly to just try it out and see if you like it, but really it depends on how you like the blend of the 57 and NT2-A and whether you can find the sweet spot. With that combination of mics, as you bring up the Sides (NT2-A) to make it wider you'll be affecting the tone of the SM57 quite a bit. Will the SM57 deliver the Mid tone you like, and better than just the NT2-A on its own? Hard to say. Though obviously I should say that in all circumstances you should without hire a specialist, specifically ME, to record all your guitars regardless. 😃😇 Give it a try!
Great video! Curious though, what camera lens are you using and how far away did you place it for your video slider parallax moves? Great video and explanation of mid side mic technique, thanks
Thank you. You’re testing my memory here... I THINK it was the Fuji 18-55 - I would guess at around 25mm - so I guess it was a metre or so away. It’s quite a long slider.
Thank you so much! This video changed my recording process completely! Results are a lot more satisfying with this lovely stereo sound. But I've tried it also with my inbuilt pickup and only one mic. Pickup copy, phase reverse, hard left and right, mic track in the middle. I like it a lot! What do you think? Thanks again, great information in your videos! Best regards, Erich
Oh wow, interesting idea! Never tried it but I’ll give it a shot!
@@JonWrightMusicTV Thanks for your reply, let me know what you think, once you've tried it.
Audio is on point, subject is relevant, the dude even has a random colored light in the background... yet somehow
THANKYOU!!! No one ever talks about the coloured light 😄
But maybe he is on the rise?? He just showed up on my recommendations for the first time!!
Well, he's got 631 at the time of this comment.
713 now
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First Take John🔥😂
That's what they (I) call me