🎹Digital Piano vs Piano VST - Kawai NV5 vs Vienna Symphonic Library Yamaha CFX, Ravenscroft 275🎹
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2021
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Hi everyone, and welcome to another piano comparison video here at the Merriam Pianos CZcams channel. Firstly, our resident piano expert Stu Harrison took the plunge - he’s exchanged his acoustic upright piano for a digital, and now has it integrated fully into his home studio setup. Not surprisingly, it’s a Kawai Novus NV5 - one of our favourites here on the channel.
But more interestingly, we’re comparing it with the VST engines on the market and finding out that they aren’t oceans apart when it comes to quality. For this video, we’ve recorded a playing sample on the Novus, and then played it back through the Ravenscroft 275 VST from VI Labs, as well as the Vienna Symphonic Libraries “CFX Yamaha” library, using identical midi information.
And the first thing that’s quite obvious is that there isn’t a dramatic - if any - quality issue between the two types of sound source. The Novus stands up incredibly well next to two of the leading engines out there, and while there will be differences in character and exact mic placement, there’s not an inherent difference in the fidelity of the experience.
There will of course be operating differences between the two categories:
Control
VST’s, or at least a good number of them, offer a very high level of customization that simply isn’t available with most digital pianos. Especially with a modelling engine from Pianoteq, or the Garritan or Ravenscroft interface with multiple processor and sample sets to choose from, the number of combinations is far greater than what most digital piano engines will offer. But it’s not WAY off. Kawai’s SK-EX Rendering engine gives quite a few parameter control options, as well as different presets to select from. The same with Roland’s Pure Modelling.
Responsiveness
The sound itself is a distinct consideration from the sense of responsiveness you have when playing it, which is a function of how they’ve mated the action with the tone generator. It’s a crude analogy, but whether or not a car can go fast and corner is entirely different from how it feels to drive the car. How well are your inputs matched to the piano’s tonal output? This was an area where a great digital seems to have an advantage, especially when you compare the exact same midi information.
Conclusions
The average digital piano sound still trails the average VST when it comes to the quality of the samples and range of editability. But for the very best in the digital piano world - of which the Novus 5 is undoubtedly a member - the gaps in sound quality are at best non existent, and at worst barely discernable. And there may still be some advantages to having an action matched perfectly with a sound engine when it comes to how accurately the piano will respond to your inputs. Thanks for watching!
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12:06 Novus 5 14:53 Ravenscroft 17:38 VSL CFX (reverbs vary)
Excellent. Just what the world needs - this comparison of the very best alternatives, by someone who knows what thy are talking about.!! Good job.
Hi Stu. I really enjoyed your video. Having played only acoustic pianos for the past 40 years, I recently made the decison to switch to the Kawai NV5 - influenced largely by your review of the instrument. I must say that I have not been disappointed. The Novus NV5 is a remarkable instrument that comes closer than any other digital piano that I have played to the feel and response of playing a real acoustic piano. I have also experiemented a lot with VSTs but found that the additional effort and tweaking required to achieve just the right sound was simply not worth the investment in terms of the finished result. I love the fact that you can just sit down at the NV5, switch it on and simply enjoy the experience of playing. In one of your earlier videos I think you said that the NV5 was worth the extra expense (over the CA99) because the cabinet design, resonance and Millenium 3 action all make a world of difference to the playing experience. I couldn't agree more.
Excellent idea for a video. I'd be really interested in seeing further versions of this with different ranges of digital pianos/keyboards (in particular the Kawai ES920). All the best!
Thank you kindly for tuning in! Absolutely! I think that comparing more VST plug-ins against the built-in piano tones of various digital piano models is a great idea. Thanks for the suggestion! :)
To me the NV-5 has the most presence and authenticity. Great playing.
My favourite sound is the NV5. Beautiful playing sir! ✌🏼
For me the Kawai 's treble keys were somewhat brittle, tinny or thin although the midrange and bass were soothing, mellow and balanced. Ravenscroft was nicely mellow and intimate across the range. However, it seemed to have a little too much reverb. CFX seemed like the instrument was far away from the listener -- on stage in a concert hall. Of course people have different tastes and preferences and mine would favor close, intimate, mellow. Thank you for the wonderful reviews and lovely talented performances.
Your piece sounds like Bill Evans. Very nice. I just retired after 35 years of being an authorized service tech for Yamaha, Kawai, Roland, Korg, Kurzweil, Nord and other companies, so I have played most of the digital pianos ever made. I also have composed fusion jazz with MIDI sequencers and VST instruments for many years. I also have a wonderful Kawai GS40 acoustic grand piano. So I agree that for many reasons a digital piano can be more suitable for being one's primary instrument. You can use headphones to practice without disturbing others. But I have found the clunk the key mechanism makes still drives my wife crazy even though the instrument is upstairs in another room. Digitals do not require tuning. My acoustic piano is very unpleasant to play within one month after tuning.
The shortcoming is that digital instruments do not transfer the vibration through the keys to your fingers. That experience seems to be a significant part of playing my acoustic piano. Much more expressive music comes from my hands when playing the acoustic piano. Only a few digitals like Yamaha hybrid pianos have transducers that vibrate the wood case and transfer that vibration through the wood keys. Kawai to it credit has the best feeling action with wood keys, but they do not create the vibration through those keys, to my knowledge. Maybe the model you have now does this. That is a model I had not seen yet. My favorite go to all around useful VST piano is the Ravenscroft 275. I find I can tweak the sound, touch response, individual note volume, timbre to fit any style of music I record.
The NV5 definitely does this! The vibrations you get through the keys and pedals are very convincing IMHO. The CA99 should provide the same experience because it also has a soundboard.
There's a sweetness and a warmth in the Kawai that's lacking in the others. And the Novus sounds fuller.
Fantastic playing, I like them all, I just wish I could play like that, I would never stop playing. I have just swapped My Roland FP30 for the FP30X, Loved your reviews by the way, persuaded me to upgrade. I also have the Native instruments Giant, Grandeur, Maverick etc on my Computer linked to my piano, so I have the best of both worlds.
Especially In this case it would be really great if you could provide the midi file! Then everyone could try and compare their favorite VST setup! Thanks in advance! Love your playing skills...
Yes it would be a real pleasure to have Stu playing my piano "live."
Love your playing, Stu. Note that the digital piano is completely digital in its core and the VST are too. When you route these digital bitstreams into a YT video there is a bit of lossy compression. Part of the assessment, comparison, is where the digital signal is converted into analog and amplified to a headphone or speakers. No doubt the NV5 does a great job at that into a good headphone. But when the AD conversion and amplification are done by simpler tech on your computers mainboard and in your desktop speakers, there will be a difference already.
I like the NV5 the most. Beautiful work!
Would be interesting perhaps to look at ‘VST in a box’ solutions - eg for those with keyboards with good actions that want better sound - MP11SE maybe or even with dedicated VPCs - something that is more ‘fire and forget’ like a raspberry pi or NUC that auto boots into a VST and is dedicated to the keyboard.
What would be nice is a controller that has the computer and screen built in along with a sound reinforcement system. (audio with speakers) In other words, a piano that could have any VST onboard. The idea is to reduce digital clutter in terms of loose cables, external speaker systems, additional laptops and so forth.
got VSTs installed in my Mac Mini....never liked the treble sound on my Yamaha N1X so i bought an external speakers to connect to my Mac....now everything sounds great....i can't tell the difference between any of the treble but i know the bass sound of my Steinway, Fazioli, Bechstein and Bosendorfer....it took me a very long time to figure it sound but very happy it turned out great!
That is awesome to hear! It sounds like you have a great VST setup going! Thanks for tuning in and sharing! :)
Organic joy, just take us on a journey through the music, let us soak with details and findings :)
Interesting stuff, thank you Stu!
By the way, what kind of camera do you shoot these videos on?
Thanks Stu. May I ask - at home do you mainly listen through headphones or through the Novus speakers at low volume? If through headphones, then action would seem the critical factor in choosing a digital. Also, wondering why you went with Novus rather than a Kawai acoustic with silent system.
hey Stu, i'm wondering what your take is on something like a kawai k 800 vs novus 5 in regards of digital sound (also there is aures - another feature i would want your comparing opinion on - for up to k500 i believe), a true sostenuto (at least in k 800 as) and perhaps an perspective for the upcomming 5 years, if it's worth waiting for further generations or what to invest in for a long run for now.
thanks and i'm looking forward to more videos!
VSTs record better, higher audio fidelity due to their larger sample sizes, for playing live i prefer hardware samples built into the pianos, they connect more musically for me overall.
Yes!!! I practice my Dpiano with headphones 100% of the time. I am a solo acoustic piano musician performing my own compositions. I live in a very small apartment, it is impossible to have an acoustic in both sound levels and space for the action of a grand. I began buying Dpianos back in the late 1980's, been waiting over 40 years now for a reasonable hardware Dpiano that takes advantage of the current technology. How are you recording, 1) through the microphone of the video camera and the speakers of the piano? OR. 2) Using the line outs (if any) of the piano in stereo pair to the recorder?
Congratulations on this investment! 8/23 will mark 2 months since my Roland HP704 was delivered. I bought digital mainly to play with headphones & not needing tuning.
Much easier to record. Don't have to worry about passing motorcycles in the middle of a recording.
I listened to this video on studio monitor and subwoofer and the N5 destroyed the vst's. Very nice video !
Thank you kindly! The NV5's SKEX samples are very difficult to beat! Kawai really knocked it out of the park with those samples. :)
They all sound good , the NV5 seems a little to bright and brittle , on my MP11 I fix that by putting the touch on heavy ,The ravens croft is the softest and more mellow , the Vienna is the most articulate , but you might be able to clean up the static on the Kawai sound with a little tweaking and it would sound more like the Vienna , I am listening through a cheap set of dell computer speakers but I can tell the difference in the sound easy enough , the Ravens Croft is fuller and the Kawai and the Vienna are more articulate . I am not a professional pianoplayer so take what I say with a grain of salt .
Hello sir I am a big fan of your playing and the way you explain about the piano it’s amazing. Always thankful to you sir 🙏 If God wish I would love to see you playing live and to meet you I don’t how is it possible but My inner soul is saying God will give me chance to meet you and I have a faith on God. As I mentioned you many times in the comments that I also work in the same music industry but our market is upcoming market and your knowledge is helping me a lot, I am so passionate to know about the piano and piano playing. I have played many vsti but still I prefer a good digital pianos not all but some of pianos are really really good substitute of acoustic. In VSTI they gives very good character but the only thing is lacking is depth in the sound digital gives very upfront tonality and key action and matching speakers plays very important roll. I have used VSTI using the Kawai VPC1 and many other semi-weighted keyboard it makes huge difference, triple Sensor technology makes big difference. I love CFX and REVANSCRAFT vsti a lot than others, It gives very satisfying response. I have a Yamaha YUS5 and I am waiting for the Kawai’s upgrade on MP11SE. I am very much sure that Kawai will make best MP series upgrade as already so much competition in the market. My conclusion is VSTI gives better character but only thing is when it comes to output good digital piano definitely produce the depth very much like a real pianos specially top quality digital like Kawai Yamaha and Roland. Thank you so much 🙏
I know of performance venues in Honolulu were Stu would fit in perfectly.
Also, I think the caveat that wasn't much addressed in this video, although it should be fairly obvious, is that the NV5 is *really* expensive. It's among the very best digital pianos, and there's no reason to believe a very high end piano cant have enough processing power to essentially have 'VST-like' quality.
I think it's more of a problem in the price range of a typical buyer, say, below $3000(often much less). Most companies don't put their best engine in their affordable models. If your budget is $1000, you're not going to find a digital piano that holds a candle to most decent VSTs. The gap narrows with every new model, since VSTs are at the point of diminishing returns, but it's only the really expensive digital pianos that can compete imo.
That's why I've been asking for videos where inexpensive portable models are either connected to a VST as it's primary voice, or played in tandem with a VST voice.
@@JoeLinux2000 Yes, the Korg D1 and the FP30X are the obvious candidates, since both have better actions than you would expect at their modest pricepoints. The D1 would need a quality audio interface or adaptor cable but I don't see that being a big obstacle.
Hi @napilopez, an excellent point to make. I should follow this up by saying that the core tone generator on the NV5 can also be found on the CA79, which is available for less than half the price of the NV5 - normally in the $4500-5000 USD range. Still on the pricier side, but not completely out of whack with the majority of "upper-mid range" digital pianos. -stu
@@MerriamPianos That's good to know. I'm very frugal and usually try to find the best bang for the buck. Honestly the set up I have now at around $2,500.00 would be hard to beat. Is it perfect? No the Yamaha DGX string voices don't sustain with the pedal, but the tandem grand piano voices are truly exceptional.
@@MerriamPianos Hello Stu, you are one of my Top 5 favorite channels on CZcams. Sadly much of this particular video has a high pitch hum.
Hey Stu coming to you from Wales thanks for all your great playing and work. Lots of listening has so far got me to loving the ravenscroft sound and the feel hits my Heart and raises my vibe like no other thus far ! Happy day love and light Johnny
I grew up in a household where music was played constantly. My brother played electric organ and later the piano. I used to sleep in his room whilst he was practicing. I got so used to it I can fall asleep with someone playing the piano right next to me, no problem. My sister and me started instruments when we were seven. Oh please get your German upright back into the house. Digital pianos are versatile, practical, fun to play with and all that. But there is a style and character that goes with the real thing that you simply cannot replace. I live in a flat any my neighbours have to endure me playing on my Bechstein. So far, I survived!
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for watching and sharing your story! We appreciate it. I know what you mean. When you're constantly exposed to playing and practicing, you eventually get used to it and have the ability to phase it out. I am sure parents, partners, and roommates of musicians can attest to this! Thanks again and happy playing! :)
A Very Good Topic
Really interesting (in a geeky way!). Would you share your MIDI file for the piece you played? I'd like to play around with that same piece, with the same intonations in the playing, through some of my VST plugins! I think they all sound great, and the nuances and ambient tones are just those of taste and engineering. All comes down to personal preference.
Yes, I would find that most interesting to play it on my home system as a comparison.
For me it comes down to velocity layers. Another factor is harmonics. This is why you can not fully replicate a real piano. So my question, is how many velocity layers does your digital piano have? And what is done to simulate harmonics?
Thanks for making this video.
I expected a big difference between VST and NV5 in terms of quality. But it wasn't there. The biggest difference was the recorded piano itself. CFX on the bright side, SK-EX more mellow. And in my opinion the VSTs come with more reverb, making sound them a bit more artificial. My conclusion: if you like the sound of your digital piano, no need to get a VST, your hopes for a better sound could fail.
Particularly if you have one that is top of the one like the NV5. Another way to look at it is that if you have a good sounding digital, there is no need to blow a fortune on an expensive to maintain acoustic grand.
@@JoeLinux2000 Oh - an acoustic is out of question with my living situation. Both upright and grand. What I enjoy is, I am able to sit down, open the lid, press a button, put on my headphones and can start playing right away.
This make me playing very often on a day. And if it is just for 10 minutes. When I think I need to switch on a computer with mouse and keyboard, a screen, waiting for the software to start up. No way I would play some passages of music just on the run by.
Good to know I am not sacrifying that much with the built in sounds. Even if it is classified two sound-engines below the NV5.
@@thomasfeldbauer5025 I agree with you fully. In my case, I never turn off my Linux laptop running Pianoteq Pro which is dedicated to the Yamaha Piano. Many of these instruments seem to be satisfying. Everyone's needs are different. Stu often points out that it's not about the piano as it is matching a particular customer to a particular piano. I have two acoustic grands but much prefer the experience on my digital as I can turn the volume down and don't have to feel I'm entertaining or bothering the entire neighborhood/
When you play the internal NV5 sounds, you adapt your playing to its response, so it is not exactly the same if you render it again on a VST. It could be close, but not ideal
Quite obvious in my opinion.
I came to make the exact same point. This could be demonstrated by using the nv5 as a midi controller into a VST while capturing the performance as a midi file. Then render that file on the nv5 and it will sound different from the midi file recorded while playing and adapting to the nv5 sounds.
@@sailorickm and @Jose V. G, a great point - perhaps a follow-up video in which I make a recording on an entirely different machine to what we'll be comparing to and then feed it through the sound sources to be sampled. Of course, I'll always wind up sub-consciously adapting my playing to whatever the original reference sound was, so it's an interesting conundrum... how to get a midi track free of real-time player induced allowances... hmm.... :) - thanks to everyone as always for all the great comments! -stu
@@MerriamPianos I think you should do just the opposite. In the case of this video you should have just replayed the piece on your NV5 with the various VSTi's. But in the end, all of these top of the line digital piano voices sound very good particularly if you only have one. Therefore it's somewhat an exercise in futility. What you did prove is that your new NV5 is a very nice digital piano with a very good sounding digital voice, and for an in the home experience, it is probably much nicer than all sorts of cable clutter associated with your RD-2000 set up.
Here's my honest experience: I have always found that it is important to listen to your own playing and adjust it to the sound being produced by the instrument. One of the reasons large pianos are fun to play is they sustain better and buy more time so to speak. Nevertheless, if you happen to strike a note too softly, you must subsequently adjust your playing to accommodate the small misstep. What really counts is how many tips are in your jar at that end of the night. That is the best measure of the quality of your playing. Any musical instrument is just an extension of your mind.
My thoughts precisely... BTW, thanks for these great videos Stu. Really enjoy your takes on piano sound.
Can you please do a video on Kawai BL series?
Not much information on it online.
Very informative . To make sure we compare apples to apples . I have a question for you as I haven’t found the answer yet . What protocol do digital pianos use to transmit signal generated by the key to the internal processor?
The protocol has to pass all information such as attack , velocity etc to the internal processor , so I can’t imagine any other protocol than midi to achieve that as as far as I am aware this the best protocol ever created to perform that function. With that in mind , the difference between a digital piano and a midi controller triggering notes on a VST is technically minim . What I consider to be an advantage for a digital piano is that all components are adjusted to provide the best experience , whereby you have to perform the integration work yourself, with a controller and a VST ie adjust the velocity curve, tune audio drivers to optimise latency … advantage of the solution is a little bit like HIFi equipment , you can choose the midi controller you want and the sound bank you like best and when it evolves , you can change the sound as well . I would be very interested to have your view , given your long experience in the matter.
I wonder if you have found the answer. I also don't know that.
My aim is just to learn to play by hear.
Will it be better to buy a digital piano or a midi keyboard with 88 weighted keys?
I've been playing with SFZ libraries a lot lately. The main difference is that with SFZ libraries you can choose among dozens of different pianos and, if you so wish, customize the sound to your liking.
Having the ability to custom-tailor the tonal profile of a piano VST to your liking is a very handy function. Some plugins have more adjustable parameters than others. In any case, I am happy to hear that you have found a VST plugin that you enjoy! :)
@@MerriamPianos I'm a Linux user , and a minimalist at that, so I edit my SFZs with a text editor. They are simply text files after all, not too difficult to understand. For those who are not familiar with them, an SFZ file controls the way the attached samples libraries are played.There are several awesome free libraries out there (Fazioli, Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Yamaha, etc) and SFZ players like liquidsfz or sfizz that weight a few kb and do the magic. Having the chance to play seveal great pianos (virtually) assuages the envy I feel for Stu, who can play so many for real. Definitely the best CZcams piano nerd channel out there. :)
Interesting video. Would you advocate for the increased cost of pianos with better sound even if they’ll be mostly used with headphones? or is it reasonable to look at lower cost options with the same action? I think even if you go with a VST you want a good action to go with that, which normally only comes with more expensive pianos which have better speakers etc.
MrKlaw: I'm no expert on VSTs, but I understand that stage pianos are among the most successful controllers for them. As we know, many stage pianos have no speakers whatsoever. Most are a bit pricey, but the Korg D1 is cheap and I'm told it's action far outranks its price. The favourite solution is the MP11SE, subject to affordability, but many people swear by Kawai's VPC offering. The FP90X might be the best solution, particularly if you do occasional gigs.
If you do have a digital piano with inbuilt speakers, they add the benefit of vibrating the keys a little. That's an extra touch of realism!
I'm mildly surprised that Stu bought the NV5, selling his German upright. It's certainly an expensive way to add headphones. I can only suppose that decibel issues were too inhibiting during practice, and the transducers are controllable - thus assisting Stu to play without headphones. I can remember practising with both the mute pedal and the soft pedal applied on "my" old German upright. I helped the real owner sell it, but mainly because the action was too slow for me.
The problem with reducing/muting your sound is that it can really mess up your touch, since your fingers instinctively try to play louder (harder) even in mezzo piano passages. Ironically, Stu often points this out, so he'll just have to cope with the compromise he warned us against. Life is imperfect.
And maybe there was a space factor too, preventing permanent set up of a digital piano as well as the upright.
This is generally a problem when trying to get the best action possible - you pay for parts and software you do not need or you get older, outdated MIDI controller (Kawai VPC) - no good solutions. Just to explain what I said - VPC has old standard MIDI interface.
My view is the feel of the action has a lot to do with the quality of sound being produced. There's a lot to it. It's not simply the mechanics of the mechanism, but the key switches and nuance of the MIDI data being sent out, and finally the conversion of that data to analog sound. No one seems to have settled on the best go to action. I'm playing a 2021 Yamaha GHS action presently,. Many players including Stu have stated that the GHS which is only dual sensor is not an action they enjoy. Yet the sound being produced by my set up which adds a Pianoteq Pro Hamburg Steinway voice to the onboard Yamaha voice is so strong the action is absolutely 100% playable, and it doesn't bug me in the least. Finally it's much quieter that the previous Casio action. I don't like a noisy action in a digtial as I try to play my instrument at relatively low volume levels. A noisy action on a digtal is a real negative in my book.
I'll share my experience.
I have a Yamaha p-125 and I tried recording samples,
-using AUX out and Audio Interface (Scarlett 2i2 3rd gen)
-using USB out and VST (Addictive keys)
I always prefer the 1st option.
Even though 'Addictive keys' is a professional Piano VST, it wasn't able to grab the actual dynamics of my playing.
Maybe it was some issue with the MIDI-USB recording. I'm not sure about that.
Some keyboards (older ones in particular) divide MIDI data into chunks of tens rather than individual "1's" Meaning instead of 127 velocity levels there are actually only 12.
@@JoeLinux2000 Thanks.
You think that might be the issue with my p-125? It's not that old of a keyboard. It was released in 2018.
@@lankanpianist2923 Probably not. To check it you have to have some sort of sequencer than can capture the MIDI numbers and see if the full range seems to be there or it seems that it is jumping in steps. My experience was with a Yamaha KX-88 controller which was really one of the 1st weighted 88 key controller's on the market. Interestingly the GHS action which I believe you have is very similar in design and feel to the KX-88. I'm playing a GHS myself on the DGX-670 and have no issues at all with it.
@@JoeLinux2000
There are probably many available, but Midi-ox is one free program that dumps midi data.
Hey Stu, what was the upright German piano you had?
Hello Stu, congratulations on your NV5! I am curious about those rectangular objects on top of your piano, for acoustic reasons. I know the NV5 has four 8cm (3") full range drivers on top (by the way, there are pictures and at least one video for those who may want to see the inside of the CA99/NV5 in detail). The pieces are blocking the natural flow of the sound, but since you have spaced them out, the sound will probably be dispersed more evenly and will reach your ears in a more indirect manner... in a way, it might work as the built-in sound diffusers on the CA99. I wonder if you placed those pieces for acoustic reasons or just a decorative item. In addition, your piano has a spruce resonator behind that acts like a DML (Distributed Mode Loudspeaker). Although DML's are different than piston speakers, are more suited for acoustic instruments, inherently create a diffuse sound, and are not affected by being placed close to a wall as much as regular speakers are, you may be able to get some sonic benefit if you leave a few centimeters of distance from the wall, to allow that wooden panel to breathe and project the sound better. That would also make for an interesting video, your personal comments on how the sound is affected by slight variations in the placement of the piano.
Very good point. Room ambiance is extremely important.
Yes, I have the same question! I hope we get an answer.
Thanks so much @Instrumental Covers!!! And thanks for the great discussion points.
The coloured pieces sit just behind the line of the drivers, so not directly on top...I had them there to diffuse some of the high-end coming off the soundboard since I pull the instrument out from the wall a bit more than most people might have. And you're absolutely right - I JUST had this conversation with someone trying to place an acoustic upright at home - playing even slightly with the distance from the wall can have a significant influence over the 'acoustics' of a piano in a room. I usually always maintain 3", and sometimes more depending on the room and application.
Cheers! - Stu
This is fascinating. I'm a trained singer who plays piano a bit (not like Stu!). I've always found that no matter how much you spend on equipment, a digital rendering of a human voice is never going to sound like 'the real thing' that you get in a recital or an opera house. The main thing is not so much what goes into your ears as what goes into your body. The most authentic recording of a human voice I've ever heard is an ancient 78 recording of Gigli played on an acoustic gramophone with a pine needle. You could actually feel the vibrations of the voice. I think the difference with the NV5 is that part of the sound being picked up by the live recording is coming from the sound board which is more 'alive' than any digital synthesis would allow for.
That is a very excellent point! There is a scientific explanation for that ultimately. Because most consumer-quality digital recordings and audio formats are limited to 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz (the exact range of human hearing), there is something ultimately missing. An actual sound heard in person may possess frequencies above and blow that range that, although we do not hear, we may perceive physically (as some say anyways). Of course, there is more to it as well. Depending on how things have been processed either during the capturing of the sound or in post-production, some harmonic details and nuanced can get either stripped away or altered in a way that loses authenticity. In any case, the NV5 and NV5S definitely bridge this gap with their TwinDrive Soundboard system. :)
Good point Richard. We have to remember that the production of a note on human voice or an acoustic instrument is a dynamic, interactive, multi-dimensional experience. Perhaps a bit less so with a piano than say a trumpet because a piano is more mechanical. Recreating the interactive aspect (human body responding in microseconds to influence the note in progress) on a synthesized voice or instrument must be fraught with difficulty.
Another issue is the speaker system. Your body has its own, and sends longer wave lengths than a speaker powered by electricity. Same with clarinet. Up close, the clarinet might be slightly drowned by an amplified guitar. As you walk away, the guitar disappears, but you still hear the clarinet. There may be yet more ways in which natural amplification is advantageous in rendering a convincing musical experience. But acoustic advantages have diminished since the increase in loudness expected at live music events. Now almost everything is amplified, and we get unwanted feedback issues from the "acoustic" instrument microphones.
Bingo ! A digital piano has many advantages. While it may not sound exactly like an acoustic, it can sound very close to the sound of a well recorded acoustic. At least in my own mind, the digital that I play which combines the voice of Yamaha DGX-CFX with that of Pianoteq Pro Hamburg Steinway is one of the most satisfying pianos I have ever owned or played at least in a home environment.
Stu your new piano sounds absolutely lovely, and I'm very happy for you. I like the NV5 better than the Ravencroft. But another aspect of digitals is that they have many different voices, not just one. My question is Pianoteq a VST or not?
A lot depends on what you already have, and how much you are willing to spend. I'm estimating the cost of my setup to be around $2,500.00. I'm sincerely pleased to have such a wonderful playing and sounding instrument that is entirely musical from my own perspective.
Why would Pianoteq not be a VST? Or rather a VSTi, as these instruments are more accurately called.
@@dynoroad Well Pianoteq is modeling while as far as I know VST's are mostly sampled. If Pianoteq is considered a VSTi, that's fine with me. Phil Best has published another video where he feels Pianoteq is best for live performance while VST's a generally better in a composite mix, as they blend in better. I believe the NV5 is a sampled piano, but presumably it has been tailored to work very well with that particular action and amplification. Whatever is the case, it's a lovely sounding instrument. I think the VST's sound very good too, but my preference goes to the sound of the NV5 in this particular instance.
@@JoeLinux2000 VSTi stands for Virtual studio technology instrument, in other words, ALL softsynths including pianoteq.
@@dynoroad Thanks for the information on VSTi's. I didn't know that fact.
@@JoeLinux2000 No problem! That abbreviation gets thrown around so much that it's no surprisento me that the meaning is lost on many people.
I jumped back and forth and the Ravenscroft has a far more neutral tone that the Vienna. I could hear things thinning out in upper registers with the Vienna and the timbre was uneven, however the Ravenscroft sounded flat and even throughout, exactly what I am looking for.
They are both excellent VST plugins with different strengths. At the end of the day, the most important thing is to find a tone that you connect with, which it sounds like you have. :)
@@MerriamPianos you're right, without that added emotional connect, you can, by technical selection, remove potential inspiration.
This comparison pretty much proved the standpoint I had for all these years. I listened to this on headphones, and the Kawai sounds like an edited (cut together) recording of an actual Live Grand, while the Ravenscroft sounds digital all the way and the VSL example sounded digital too, or like a boosted recording from a far away mic stand. (Strike that, on second listening, this time of the whole piece it just sounds digital. Still I would rate the VSL higher than the Ravenscroft, it's still not even close to the Kawai sample though to my ears)
The dynamics on the Kawai Sample sound SO much better than the VSTs, I don't think it's even a competition.
I haven't watched the whole video yet though and don't know about your conclusion.
PS:
Sadly the audio in this video clips quite often on the louder notes, maybe you can fix that in future videos?
I didn't notice any clipping. What I have noticed in the past is certain CD players can get over a blemish on a CD disc while others can't. I was led to believe that it is due the individiual DAC. Therefore the clipping could be the fault of your system, not Stu's. It just depends on what others say. Generally what Merriam Music produces is 1st class.
@@JoeLinux2000
I know what you mean, will check on other systems.
Edit: As far as two other independent chains go the clipping is still there, I do think you might just have overheard it.
@@JoeLinux2000
Nah, there is definitely clipping in this video on several points.
I heard it too and it's very obvious. My system(s) certainly aren't the problem.
I too know what you mean though.
It's a correction feature some cd players have to address (physical) flaws in the disk.
@@Mat-hr1dg If you heard it too, it's there. Digital recording is very sensitive about clipping. You really can go into the red at all whereas with analog tape some modest amount was OK and perhaps desirable.
The NV5 sounded great! The Ravenscroft had a little too much reverb that made it sound so real it sounded fake. The Vienna Symphonic Library sounded a little too bright on the treble end but beautifully rich and deep on the bass end.
Ravenscroft 275 is and probably will remain my favorite VST because of how clean and rich the dry mics are. The way it responds to staccato seems far more realistic to me than any other VST I've heard or tried (Garritan CFX and Keyscape being the other non-free ones I personally own). Despite its flaws, Ravenscroft makes for a delightful digital playing experience.
I don't know, we all have different ears and experience music differently. I prefer Garritan to VSL for the CFX but the CFX sounds like it's plaintive to me, there's something very expressive about it. The fact that it isn't so thick in texture and that the bass depth and deepness is more in the lower part of the bass range separates the voices so you really hear them clearly and when there's a deep bass, it appears even deeper because it contrasts to the tenor/alto/midrange more. The treble doesn't get as "trebly" but seems crystal like giving it a Bosendorferish sense rather than Steinwayish or so sense. The Kawai sounds quite great, especially if you want something rich and full-bodied. There's also a good amount of sustain so you can get a strong sense but with softish hammers so that gives a sense of mellowness, compared to the CFX's more strong, articulate attack. But, the CFX has a more mellow sustain, or maybe "tinge-like" sustain. The Ravenscroft 275, I don't know. It's a very fine sounding instrument but it's not as defined to my ears as the more familiar SK-EX and CFX sounds. I do feel a slight sense of "digital piano" in the Kawai but it's only somewhat present from time to time. Maybe it has to do with the decay of the tone or sustain. The VSTs I sense the sample layers and if you really went to exaggerating the dynamics in a say, Chopin piece, then I think the VSTs would reveal themselves more.
Benjamin, I'm impressed by your analysis, and agree with many of your points. The crystal (I'd say porcelain) treble range on my CF sample (predecessor to CFX) is very important to me. And yes, the bass range is better exposed than on many other digital pianos. I love the different timbres I can extract from the different parts of the keyboard and how the distinct notes influence each other but still don't get in each other's way.
As I suggested elsewhere, the default tunings might be a contributing factor to the clarity and pleasure too. Anyway, my Yamaha keeps me enthralled for hour after hour, playing/practising in assorted jazz piano styles, solo and with custom backing tracks.
If home digital piano and portable piano patches were tweaked (default settings) to give an even more authentic concert grand experience than they already do, we would probably fall off our home piano benches. This is at least true for 90% of the repertoire played on home pianos. How much noise and projection do you need for playing Arabesque, Vexations, The Entertainer, 2-Part Inventions, Claire de Lune, Killing Me Softly or Misty? I believe that manufacturers know this and modify the noise (piano attitude) factor.
Later, we have to retweak if we want to gig on a stage, but my piano has a special button which switches to a sort of stage mode for cutting through the mix. Does that make my piano sound more like a real CF? I don't know and I don't care. What works in a jazz ensemble works!
@@Zoco101 The CFIIIS really has an amazing treble. Always loved the older recordings by Hiromi and Chick Corea when they played that piano.
@@dynoroad Thanks for the confirmation. And I didn't know about C Corea playing a CF. That's a happy thought.
@@Zoco101 He was one of the first Yamaha artists, so he started out on the original CFIII which came out in 1983 (same year as the DX7), and then went on to the CFIIIs and now the CFX.
@@dynoroad Did CF production completely cease in favour of CFX? And do you know when it was? And do you have a preference?
I haven't played any CFX pianos yet, neither the grands themselves, nor the samples on the P-515s and so on. But here in Spain I played a CF built in 1998 I believe. Does that make it a CFIII?
I've also played C3s and C7s, and I tried something with a name like C7X (?) at Yamaha London. I preferred the ordinary C7 to that piano, but it was only one short comparison and maybe different technicians had prepared them.
I hope my P-255 lasts a long time because I might not be satisfied with any replacement. People sometimes ask whether they should sell theirs and upgrade to the P-515. I usually say hang onto your P-255 unless you need the new features! The improvements may not be enough to spend the extra cash and surrender a patch and feel you're happy with. Myself, I'd hate to lose those cool treble notes.
All VST ARE REALLY GOOD ,BUT THE SK-EX SHIGHERU KAWAI IS THE BEST IN EVERYTHING
velocity curve on ravencroft is different as well
Hi Stu,
Can you please make a video how to record the NV5S the correct way? I’m using a Apollo Twin interface but get a lot of white noise… What cabels do you use? Also i can use different PreAmps while recording with the Apollo, is this overkill? Is it better to just record the dry signal?
Hi! Brent here! We will do our best to tackle that in an upcoming video. Have you tried using alternate cables? If you are taking a direct line-out feed from the NV5S, the sound should be fairly well isolated with minimal noise. Any standard 1/4" instrument cables should do the trick. In terms of using pre-amps in conjunction with the Apollo, it is a matter of taste. I would lean in the direction of recording the dry signal, so you can have flexibility in the post-production phase.
What is a Digital Piano if not a VST in a wooden box if you get all reductive on it :)
Wonderful video and playing! While I have you, another day of requesting you check out the Embertone 1955 Concert D. At $39 for the Lite version, I think it might be the most affordable very high quality VST out there, and the full version is a beast while still being a great value. The other cheap VSTs don't usually run in the free Kontakt Player.
How does Rolands’ FP series Supernatural engine compare?
the cough during the piano recording shows that humans naturally cough whenever they hear classical music
m.czcams.com/video/b40Se1pcpkA/video.html
@@alpay389 I remember watching that episode, I miss the old pink panther
this is not classical music :)
Stu's playing can make a medili feel like a yamaha grand. :)
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! I agree! He can bring any piano to life! :)
From my experience as a professional jazz pianist and piano teacher, the most important thing to consider when using a vst plug with stage or digital pianos, is the response you get from hitting the key. I've been using the Ravenscroft plugin for 2-3 years on stage it's the best plug ever in terms of playing with the Kawai VP1 or MP7se. Tried Ivory and CFX but the Ravenscroft beat them. Fun fact, as for the sound, I would hear from sound engineers after the gig, "hey, really nice and genuine piano sound".
totally disagree with you about the Ravenscroft...
@@Nico-rw2tl Fine. So you may suggest a better plugin or keyboard for my use? Thanks
@@Nico-rw2tl Not everyone likes the ravenscroft's sound, but it's very rare for people to complain about its playability. Other than lacking a little energy in the bass, it's playability is among the best of the best.
Stu, How about comparing a VSTi or two with the V3 Grand Piano voice expander? As you probably know, the V3 is mainly about a variety of presets sampled from a Hamburg Steinway and a Bösendorfer Imperial. Should be an easy but interesting review.
Is the V3 Grand Piano a module or what? if it's a module, it could be very intriguing. I just searched for some CZcamss of the V3. To my ear which is accustomed to Pianoteq Pro, it really doesn't sound very good. It actually grated on my nerves. Adding it to an NV5 would be a complete waste of time in my opinion. On the other hand if your have some MIDI keyboard with toy like piano sounds it could be a great enhancement. Conceptually I like the idea very much and if it had Pianoteq quality voices it could be a very good thing.
I have the V3 Grand Piano XXL piano/sound module. I have not compared it yet with any VST's like Pianoteq or Ravenscroft, but I am planning on it. I play with a Kawai Es110. Also wish there were more reviews of the V3, but being a small indie company, they aren't well known. Also the price of the V3 ($400) keeps most people from investing in it compared to VSTs.
Anyway, the main benefit to me is that (for $400, actually got it for $350) It gives me the option to be free from being in front of my laptop or tablet. It's smaller, plug and play, and can run for longer playtimes on portable usb power bank if needed. I personally prefer NOT having screens around when I am playing piano, as my main purpose is classical piano technique and environment, -and not as a music producer or studio engineer working in a digital format. And I just enjoy not having to worry about bringing my ipad with me or it getting damaged or stolen if I am in public or while traveling. A black, triangle shaped box is much less interesting to steal than a nifty looking ipad in a case stand sitting on top of a bench or table. And the V3 weighs one-third the weight, at 7.36 ounces vs 19.66oz ipad mini (with case).
As for the sound comparison between the V3 and my Kawai Es110, to my ears they are similar in sample/bit rate and bit depth. The V3 actually sounds more natural, neutral-warm, and open in imaging, soundstage. My Kawai Es110, is very close, just with a different tibre of sound -more clear, cool-neutral, and bright. At times, however, it sounds more digital than the V3 and in the Es110, there is some just very minor digital artifacts or processing you can hear in its modeling technology used (Harmonic Imaging Technology) which when pushed can sound "twangy" cold, or metallic at times. For instance, the Es110 is more dynamic than the korean-made Young Chang that I play, which is a physical, acoustic Baby grand. However, with the on-board Kawai EQ, these can be tamed down quite a bit.
This is neither good nor bad, just different. The Es110 can produce quiter or louder sounds with less physical force used on the keys than I can get out of an actual physical acoustic baby grand, which can lead to over-emphasized sounds in the attack or decay. The V3 module, via midi on the same piano, doesnt appear to sound more realistic, or at least more in control but to be honest, I've never heard a Bosendorfer Imperial 290 in real life 😅.
Both the V3 and the Kawai Es110, can be adjusted for eq, with the V3, having more manual tuning control and the Es110, offering only preset adjustments (mellow, mid, bright etc.) of their pianos and also touch control, which also affect the overall sound). I enjoy using them both, as sometimes I want that big beefy Bosendorfer sound, but I also do very much enjoy the more musical character of the Kawai concert grands and also, their intimate presets like the Studio 2 preset + mellow touch control.
I will have to see how they each compare with VST's, but as a comparison together, they seem to be on the same level technologically speaking, with varying characteristics. Both the V3Sound Piano XXL and the Kawai ES110 launched 2017. The V3 also uses much higher capacity of flash sample data at 4Gb, compared to Kawai Es110's 32MB of samples -however, it is not clear how much of that is dedicated to the main piano samples only, as the V3 has hundreds more preset sounds, claiming 680 sounds, 12,000 samples, 254 voice polyphony, 16 midi channels, all on top of their software's modeling technology. Looking at the main site, the V3 features seem to be quite extensive.
As a reference, I compared them using Beyerdynamics dt1990 reference headphones, and you are presented with much more clarity, separation, and detail, however you also do hear more of the "digital" technology coming through and can be somewhat fatiguing. So, the headphones and speakers you use greatly affect the sound you receive. I only use these (dt1990's) to hear the sound as accurate and as neutral to the source as possible.
You will have to experiment yourself to find what suits you. In practice, I actually pair my piano and any modules with Beyerdynamics dt770 (250 ohm) as it provides more dynamic (less flat) frequency response that I enjoy during playing. And while being a closed back hp, it is one of the most open-sounding closed back headphone out there.
Listening through my bookshelf speakers, a pair of Edifier R1280db, although less accurate and detailed than my dt1990 headphones, the varying characteristics were still there between the V3 sound module and the on-board Kawai concert grands.
As in the comment above me, who mentioned the V3 had a "grating" sound compared to Pianoteq, there have been complaints about it having a noisy sound output or just not liking the quality of the sounds.
I suspect the inadequacy is due to not having good speakers or headphones and listening to compressed youtube audio. As an audiophile myself, I'm very aware of how the audio signal chain and listening environment affect the sound you hear. The issue is, unfortunately, people are investing their money into these things and not getting the best experience out of it, thinking the product is to blame and never being aware of their own equipment. You can't plug in consuner-grade headphones/earphones, into an on-board headphones jack on your laptop (without an external dac), especially not play something through youtube or bluetooth and then wonder why your $400 sound module or VST doesnt sound that great.
I've owned and listened to the V3 Piano XXL myself with $20 on-ear headphones, with $200 hp, and $500 headphones, with open backed arcitechture, semi-open, and closed back headphones -and the difference in sound can be sometimes as drastic as changing between completely different piano presets. Or between completely different piano models/brands.
Headphones and speakers can completely change the way your piano sounds. The speaker architecture, frequency response, driver mechanism, driver size and ear pad material make an amazing change in the differences between the sound that reaches your ears.
So, when it comes to reviews on sound modules and VST's you just have to try for yourself with the best gear that you've got. It's gonna sound different across every person and varies with each of their individual environments, and equipment.
Most players using VST's do not even use an external dac or sound card -which is a scary thought when they are reviewing or listening to something they have paid money for, but are not actually getting the best quality that they otherwise could have!
@@nostgeoffhi-fi Interesting! When you say an external DAC, could this be a studio audio interface? I'm not currently using any VST instruments, and my computer audio lineout for playing CZcams etc, feeds into channels 3&4 of my Behringer interface. My DP feeds into channels 1&2. If I need to record audio to the computer, I connect the USB cable from the audio interface to the computer. My DP doesn't feature audio over USB.
Now, back to computer audio output: Is it more normal to feed audio to the interface unit via the USB connection? I mean when using VST software. Dunno if that's possible. Or is there aother piece of kit required to satisfy your DAC recommendation?
I think the main difference between a good digital piano like the NV5 and using VSTs is that VSTs will give you more flexibility in how you want the piano to sound. All the extra gigs of sample data that VSTs offer over what's been sampled into something like the NV5 will go to allow you to change microphone mixes and character tweaks of the sound. A digital piano generally doesn't allow for that level of tweaking. But the base sound of the piano can still easily rival the base sound of any good VST, while having the benefit of being optimized for the key action of that particular instrument.
The problem I have with digital pianos vs VST is that it doesn’t take into consideration the fundamental Moore’s law about computing . Rh hardware embedded into any digital piano is going to be obsolete after 2 years while with VST , on top of software upgrades , you can upgrade your computer and your keyboard alongside in parallel to technology evolution . In the majority of cases , digital pianos are considered outdated after 2 years , while some VST are still widely adopted after 10 years ( Ivory 2 for instance )
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your insights! There is definitely something to be said about the lifespan or lifecycle of a product and digital pianos and VST plugins are different in that regard. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
Loved the bit about samples & action vs totality of experience - excuse the paraphrase. Generally speaking, manufacturers know how to set up their pianos to give you the best possible playing experience given the type you have chosen and the components available at that pricepoint. Mixing and matching patches with actions may not always bring the best results, cetainly not without a lot of tweaking as Stu says.
I noticed a vast difference between the first presets on the VSTs. In the end (with the more imtimate ones) they all sounded a bit similar. After hearing the NV5 initially (mic'ed from its own soundboard?) I was disappointed by the first few (much less intimate) presets. Maybe there's some visual bias here giving me preconceptions. I can't easily accept hearing what seems to be a rattly concert grand in a big hall while observing a modest upright frame in an intimate home studio or living room. But a certain question keeps returning: Do we all need noisy concert grands in our homes? I wouldn't ask an opera singer to sing an intimate jazz ballad.
A lot may depend on the difference between direct audio out and using the NV5's soundboard. Can the VSTs' audio be routed into the NV5 to play its soundboard? That would be an interesting experiment. I think there is a tonal bias which suits the instrument and its setting. So would it work well for the VST patches?
Very good observations, and well worth experimenting with. These better digitals offer a lot of potential. What I like about my own home set up is that I have the sound and timbrel quality of a large grand but with much less overall loudness.
I also wonder if it’s possible to feed a vst output back to nv5s while playing to hear the vst rather than the original nv5s sound through the soundboard.
@@user-uf3hn1pb6k I think we are saying the same thing there.
The NV5 sound is clearly better quality more spacious open sound than the ravenscroft. The VSL sounds best in my opinion, but the NV5 is not far behind. VSL and NV5 are both better then Ravenscroft with distance.
Can I check when you play the vst you midi out from Novus5 to your computer and send out the audio output from the computer to Novus5 and hear the audio from Novus5 and not the computer ? If not, can you tell me whether this is possible ? (MIDI out and audio in simultaneously)
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! The signal chain you described is possible, but, depending on your hardware capabilities, there may be some latency (delay) in the signal chain. You can also hear the audio through studio monitors plugged into your computer or headphones of course. Thanks and all the best!
You got me plugging in the headphones....!!
Kawai sounds like a real piano.
The VST's: thin, remote.
Just as with Classical piano CD's: recording a piano so that the artist feels the sound represents his vision and tone is an art mastered only by a few.
The Kawai NV5's SKEX samples are certainly amongst some of the best out there (even with the consideration of VSTs). They have done a fantastic job at capturing the tiniest of nuances to make the sonic experience immersive! :)
Is it possibile to play a vst with Kawai keys AND return the audio from the laptop to the Kawai (And mute internal piano source software so I can only hear vst coming from Kawai piano)? If yes…how? Thank you
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! In theory, you could use the MIDI output from the a Kawai digital into an audio interface and your device and then connect a cable running from the audio output of your device and into the audio input of the piano. With that said, this would be contingent on the piano having all of the necessary connectivity. Furthermore, you may have some latency issues occur from running this type of setup.
Question for people who has played acoustic pianos and also those high-end VST:
Is latency a problem when playing VST? I sold my grand piano for room space (im moving to an appartment) and im planning to buy a good digital piano and those good VST (Garritan, VSL, etc)
I ask cause about 10 years ago i used to have a cheap Casio digital piano, cheap PC and Synthogy Ivory I and I hated that delay. May be now in 2021 not a problem anymore?
thanks.
I have heard no latency, you need really low latency asio midi interface and high speed cpu multi core cpu though
I had latency between a Casio P-150 and Pianoteq Pro running on a Dell Intel - i5. But the latency only meant that I could not play the two voices together. In that case the voice of the Casio sounded more quickly than the Pianoteq Voice originating in the computer. If I played the Pianoteq voice singly any latency was completely unnoticed.
Now with the Yamaha DGX-670 there is no audible latency between the two, and the end result is a spectacular sounding and playing instrument that is extremely musical. I've been requesting that Stu test every digital he demonstrates with Pianoteq or another VSTi instrument to indicate compatibility. What is the result when the two voices are combined?
Probably a laptop and MIDI cable can be taken to a piano store. I bought my Yamaha sight unseen based on various CZcams videos. The biggest disappointment with the DGX is that the string voices and similar pads don't sustain with the sustain pedal, and Yamaha has indicated they will never fix it.
Always invest in a audio interface when using a VST of any kind especially for latency. You can set the buffer size from anywhere from 1024 down to 64 samples, obviously the lower the better but the lower you go the more powerful your PC will need to be.
Latency is a function of several factors, like the piano, adaptors, configuration, and devices you are using to play. I mostly use VST with my Ipad connected to a Yamaha. The is no latency, or at least nothing I can noticed. Key issue: your Ipad in this case. Best one with some power, not very old. Not needed the last one really. For Yamaha there is a bluetooth connector, works well also. Entirely different story with a MIDI Roland I have. Terrible Latency, I needed to put some effort to overcome it, like adaptors for 3audio, cables to speakers, and some configuration to VST. There is no problem now, but I think you need to work on your configuration. For me, since I do not produce, it is not practical to have a notebook or audio interface. Ipad more than suffice for my needs, even when using line outs to amps.
It used to be a problem , but rarely now. If you opt for a sampled base VST like Garritan or VSL, the most important things to consider is memory ( RAM) and fast SSD. The minimum RAM you need is 8GB ( 16 is even better) and a really fast SSD . be careful with SSD as specs vary a lot from one brand to another. Samsung is one of the best in that space. If you opt for Pianoteq , the most important spec is your CPU , as this is quite CPU hungry, specially as soon as you start using the pedal with lot of chords.
hi there.I like the Bechstein,what Vst do you suggest for this piano?
Hi! Brent here! There is a C. Bechstein Digital Grand VST for Kontakt. You can read up on it here:
www.bechstein-digital.com/en/digital-grand/
@@MerriamPianos thanks!
Anyone above 40 certainly remembers how digital pianos used to sound. Oh my God! Now this is all on totally different level. I think we can call this a draw. The rest is down to personal preference. I personally enjoyed the sound of the Ravenscroft most, but that is just my taste. I found the Vienna Symphonic library too sharp in the upper treble, but beautiful in the mid range. So the good news is there are many options and either way will deliver a great sound. I am considering buying a good versatile keyboard and then beef it up with VST sounds at home. I prefer a keyboard over a digital piano as I have no more space for a digital piano and the keyboard can spend its days under my bed when I'm not playing. Also, I definitely want to have the Rhodes sounds. Would I get those equally well with a digital piano?
The sonic and technical innovation and improvement that has occurred in digital pianos over the last couple of decades is incredible. The authenticity that some manufacturers are able to emulate in terms of sound and touch is meaningfully bridging the gap to an acoustic piano experience. In terms of digital pianos having a Rhodes sound, most will these days within their electric piano libraries (although it may be called something else like "suitcase piano"). Thanks for tuning in and happy playing! :)
I preferred the Kawai NV5. The Ravenscroft sounded 'thin' and less immediate; a long way short of of the Kawai sound. The differences with the Vienna Symphonic were more subtle. But there seemed to be less harmonics and I found the tone less satisfying. Thank you so much for your videos. You are a very accomplished pianist. I plan to buy a piano for my Quebecois daughter-in-law and two grandchildren. Any chance of Merriam opening a store in Montreal, or do you ship that far.
Please repeat this comparison in the beginner's price range. Kawai ES-120 and some of the more affordable or even free VST's.
Hi there! Thank you so much for the excellent suggestion! We will add that to our list of potential topics to cover in upcoming videos. All the best! :)
Maybe someone could help me an advice: Is there any good VST with a Steinway Piano but with close intimate-dry sound (no room, no reverb)? Like the Ravenscroft dry sound. Or the VSL CFX sound.
The VSL Steinway for eg. has a not very dry sound like the VSL CFX.
Thanks Stu and all the communitiy here. Regards from Stuttgart, south Germany.
Hi! Brent here! Thanks for tuning in and writing in! If I remember correctly, there were some drier sounds available through the Steinway Legacy VST for Kontakt. However, it has been some time since I have used those myself, so I may be mistaking it with another Steinway sample set. Perhaps, one of our helpful community members here can chime in and help out!
Thanks Brent! regards@@MerriamPianos
Is anyone aware of great quality VST with a darker or warmer tone more in the vein of a Bosendorfer, Schimmel, Grotrian? Thanks
Hi there! Keyscape has a large library of presets and sounds that is definitely worth exploring. Lekko, Felt Piano, and Una Corda are not particularly versatile, but do offer wonderfully-warm piano sounds. Thanks and hope this helps!
@@MerriamPianos Awesome, I did not expect someone to answer my message, especially so quickly! I have another very specific question. Is the NV5s constructed to optimize the SK-EX patch using different technology, making VST sound a bit thin? Not sure if my question is clear. Thanks !
The need for a VST company and a digital piano company to build a perfect piano are essentially the SAME, that is the need for the beauty of mathematics, the art and masterminding of mathematics. For the core value they want to achieve, here’s no such difference between them essentially.
This is a very interesting video and topic. I believe there is a 3rd component which is important in comparing these 2 variants of the same technology. To achieve sound production digitally at a high level you need (1) Sotfware ( VST or proprietary samples used for digital piano bands) (2) Processing Power ( CPU + Storage) (3) Midi keyboard ( VST and branded digital pianos action generated by any key is a midi signal
You rightly highlighted the main differences ( more parameters to play with VST's but more fined tuned solution with digital piano as the software is tweaked to match the keyboard )
Now the processing power itself is a key difference too. In the case of traditional VST , the CPU comes from your PC and Laptop and as powerful as it might be it is not dedicated to the production your sound as the difference of digital piano where the processing power is a CPU board whose role is 100% dedicated to rendering the midi file generated by the keyboard. In a nutshell it is similar to comparing a video game running on a home PC vs a video game running in a top arcade machine. Home PC's and laptops sometimes generate unwanted noises (scratches) just because of the interruption between 2 tasks running concurrently. For instance if you run a VST in the main window and preview a PDF file for the score at the same time, you might hear scratches when you scroll the PDF to turn the pages while playing, because of the main processor switching context. You don't have this issue in digital pianos , they only serve 1 process.
Sorry for the long post. I just subscribed to your channel which I find very interesting.
Maybe playing some classical pieces could demonstrate better the differences
Hey Global Stats, that's on my hit-list for next year. Either I've got to dust off some more classical, or welcome some classical pianists on to help with the musical samplings. Thanks for the comments! -Stu
I don't know. I really enjoy and respect Stu's playing immensely. Whatever he plays is pretty much solid gold. I just looked at a video on the V3 module being played by Piano Man Chuck, and had to turn it off. I can't stand simplistic unnuanced playing. I can't even evaluate the instrument being demonstrated. I guess hearing some nuanced Chopin could be good. If some particular keyboard made it difficult to play Chopin then perhaps it should be rejected.
There are three very loud staccato chords in Chopin's 4th Ballade before it goes into the final bombastic conclusion, that I find hard to get the dynamic response necessary for an acoustically authentic performance. The same it true for the final loud chords at the end of the Brahms Variations on a Theme by Paganini. Someone else already pointed out that seems to be the present short coming in digital instruments. Extremely loud chords are unable to be sounded as loudly as they should be.
All the same, that NV5 is delicious
What monitors do you use ? Thank you
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! I would have to ask Stu as to which monitors he uses with his setup. With that said, we have received a few requests to cover studio monitors in an upcoming video. We have added the idea to the list of potential topics for the future! :)
@@MerriamPianos Thank you I wait your answer. best regards from France
Stu, a friend recently bought an NV5s (I have a CA-79). She'd really like to know if the coloured panels on top of the piano are just decorative or if they serve some function for the sound?
A bit of both, but primarily decorative. Those are various colour samples that we're experimenting with in the shop for some custom piano colours, but I found that putting them there helped diffuse some of the treble coming off the soundboard. I like to have some extra distance between piano and wall, which gives a much more open tone, but sometimes it can also cause a bit of additional high-end reverberation and these panels helped break it up a bit. Thanks! -stu
Keyscape from Spectrasonic might have been a very good product to add to this comparison with others
Was hoping for the same since I bought that one.
Which headphone do u use?
Maybe Roland RH-300
When you play the Ravencroft and other piano voices in the 2nd half of the video are you actually playing it live or just replaying the video with the MIDI output going to the VST? I think you need to evaluate each instrument as you actually play it, not just reuse the MIDI with a different voice. It's just not clear to me what you are actually doing. Frankly anyone would be happy to play any of these piano voices. They certainly are far better than an average 5'8" grand. Persumably you are very satisfied with the action on the Kawai.
If you evaluate each instrument as you play it, bias comes into the picture. You might play "better" on the instrument you expect (conciously or unconciously) to sound better. It's much better to match the MIDI/velocity values as close as possible.
@@dynoroad Then the MIDI should come from somewhere else, like a piano competition. I think there is a lot of hi-res MIDI out there that has been recorded on Yamaha Disclavers. I just wanted to know if he was playing over, or reusing the original MIDI data. I would think that it's better for Stu to play each piano voice live to the best of his ability, and then we the listeners decide which piano is the best. I've already said I like his original performance on the Kawai the best. That audio is the most pleasing to my ear. The VST's all seem rather bright.
it's a replay
@@JoeLinux2000 Where the MIDI was generated is not important if the instruments being fed this data don't have close to identical velocity/sample mappings. That's the real variable that needs to be addressed.
@@dynoroad Presumably the MIDI captured from Yamaha's hi-res Disk Claviers would be accurate.
The Kawai sound is the warmest to me and has nice dynamics. Ravenscroft sounds boring here. Vienna has great tone too, with this mic setting less intimate than Kawai.
I certainly agree! The Kawai's warm sound is incredibly rewarding and engaging. :)
If there's one thing I usually get disappointed with in keyboards and VST's alike, it's the fact that to me it seems they always leave out what I would call real FFFF. You hit a certain point where the timbre will simply stop changing (obviously when you hit the max MIDI value) but it always makes me think "hey, I know this piano can growl even more, why didn't they sample the more extreme ranges of the dynamics?"
For example, I know how an SK-EX sounds when played with full bombast in the bass, and the NV5 simply doesn't cut it in my humble opinion, nor do the various VST's I have tried. I think pianoteq comes closer to the real thing in this regard.
On another note, have you tried Synthogy's Steinway B? I think it's quite glorious sounding.
I agree with you that at the highest dynamic levels digitals will not equal the timbrel nuance of a large acoustic, but life is a compromise. I can get as much out of mine as I need at home.
💥 I immediately notice they are all digital. Looks like a Roland XP 80 keyboard, improved. Not acoustic. If you want a better option would be only The Grandeur, and Soundscape. 🎉❤
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your thoughts! :)
@@MerriamPianos I really hope one day they could invent a piano sound that could fool my ears. One that I love to hear, as I love listening to a real good acoustic piano. I notice one of the biggest problem is that somehow they lose the wood sound. They sound plastic, only the strings, but not the wood. There are too few hammer noise, and the strings sounds unrealistic, because if you strike a key with the same weight, the sound would ever be the same, which is wrong. On a real piano, every time you strike a key, even with the same weight, or force, this note will sound different, because the waveform varies almost randomly depending on several factors. If you play the same note 50 times on a row, fast, the sound would merge, and new waves are formed, along with the wood vibration. On an electronic piano, if you play the same thing, all 50 notes would sound equal, which is terrible. So, that's easy to spot the fake one, just playing a single note. I hope they fix that in the future. 🙏👍
Decades ago when all we had were acoustic pianos, organs and low quality keyboards (for the home). There was no TECH sophisticated enough to give us a representation of what a Yamaha CFX Concert Grand without having the real thing. The recreations sounded like kids toys. And unless we've actually played the real thing...we'd never pickup on the nuances of the acoustic.
Realistically. How many of us can have an acoustic piano in our homes? Not without annoying the neighbours in a condo or town home block. The ability to play any time without being heard by putting on headphones...
Even people who CAN afford the $230k C. Bechstein 234...in their 8 million dollar estate home...likely didn't put it in a dedicated acoustically treated sound suppressed room...Few people living in $3-5M homes have grands of any kind. Unless they are "piano nerds". Most still only have $10-25,000 uprights. Any musical instrument is usually low on the list of "must buy" for any couple or family. Bought with money leftover...usually.
Cost. How many can scrape together $6000 CDN for a quality Hybrid vs $100,000+ for an acoustic grand? Or are willing to spend that much on a grand? Over buying that new 2022 Porsche 911? Or trips to Europe over and over every year.. renovating a home...etc.
I'm working with a headset all day long. There is simply no way that I'll wear one when I'm playing.
Very dangerous for hearing health. I avoid headphones as much as is possible.
@@KeepingOnTheWatch I'm working remotely. Zoom/Team meeting and so on I listen to music and piano review in between. 😂
@@michelprimeau4531 Be careful to keep volume levels as low as possible on the headphones.
well... what i can say.. you should simply connect your kawai keys to a pc with the VSL vst for the best experience and sound. You can't get any closer to real piano...
I want to hear the two playing together.
To me it’s pretty clear that the VST sounded better, in terms of pure sound quality.
And I think the explanation comes from the fact that what is coming out of the NV5 is aiming at making you feel you are playing an acoustic piano, being in front of an acoustic piano. So there’s lot of resonance etc.
On the other hand, the VST is here to be like you make a recording, like you would do of a concert for example. It’s way way cleaner, more detailed and more spatious. Also it’s quite clear the stereo is better.
The NV5 digital output is quite nice for what it’s trying to achieve in my opinion, but it’s a bit at the expense of the absolute quality you would actually try to get if you were properly recording a piano. The objectives are completely different.
There is definitely something to the notion that manufacturing a digital piano is a multifaceted endeavour in which a variety of disparate elements need to be independently designed and brought together (e.g. action, tone engine, speaker/amp system, cabinet, etc.). On the other hand, companies creating VST piano plugins are purely focused on one of those elements. Thanks for tuning in and for sharing your insights. We appreciate it! :)
Thx for the insight! I was looking at a yamaha dgx670 but feel like I'll get a better bang for my buck with VST's and a decent weighted keys midi keyboard. What do you recommend?
Cfx 100%
Everyone will have their preference! The VSL plug-in is quite impressive though. :)
@@MerriamPianos 💯
Pretty confusing , some tweaking would make them all sound the same, EG less reverb on the Ravenscroft and more on the Kawai.
Tweaking MIDI is slow and tedious. I did it for 6 years or so. I mostly moved notes forward in time to avoid too many MIDI signals arriving simultaneously and then dropping out.
I don't understand the comments that say a digital piano will never sound as good as a good VST. Isn't a digital piano a keyboard with an embedded VST and processor? In other words, if you licensed the VSL VST and put it in a digital piano, with the same headphones wouldn't it sound the same as when run on a computer driven by the same keyboard as a MIDI controller?
Its more of the quality of the sampleing in a lot of digital instraments. You often find that the sampling in keyboards just isn't as high in quality. That being said there is no reason a company cannot use a higher quality sample other than cost. And cost is usually the factor behind this.
@@zackeryhardy9504 I think it's more of a question of marketing. There always needs to be a higher level product to step up to. That's why the strings don't sustain with the pedal on the Yamaha DGX. They deliberately knee capped it to lead people to their more expensive lines. In spite of the crappy string experience with the DGX, it's still a fantastic value.
@@JoeLinux2000 Oh absolutely. I mean when you look at Kawai's grand pianos, you will notice that the higher end models and lower end models have actions made from different materials. Interestingly enough the lower end pianos have actions that are more expensive to make than the higher end actions and they do that because it makes the lower end ones feel cheaper. They literally spend more money to nerf the low end piano. And while I am way more knowledgable on tbe acoustic side of things, I can wadger that they do similar things on their electronic instraments to.
Too me suprisingly the kawaii sounds the most "real". The VSTs sound a little bit shallow in comparison somehow.
I think it's the blend of the notes coming from the Kawai which is smooth and lovely. There is no harshness. The VST's all sound too bright and over mic'ed from my perspective, but again, I'm just listening on the tiniest of laptop speakers. I should put on headphones. The VST's sound like an Elton John concert in a large arena.
Wow such a big difference! ding ding ding ... vs ... ding ding ding ... vs ... ding ding ding. How much money do you want me to pay? Yeah who cares about the poor people, lets play expensive pianos!
I suppose not everyone will notice musical differences between different pianos and VSTs. Also, pianos are no longer an instrument exclusively reserved for the most affluent people. There are a plethora of very affordable and impressive digital and acoustic pianos across virtually all price points now.
😔 Shame on you... 😐