🎹Vienna Symphonic Library Bosendorfer Imperial vs 280VC - Synchron Piano Sound Engine🎹
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- čas přidán 29. 10. 2021
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#Bosendorfer #Imperial #PianoVST
Hello and welcome to the Merriam Pianos CZcams channel for another video. In this video, we’ll be looking at the Vienna Symphonic Library’s Syncron Pianos Bosendorfer Imperial and comparing it with their newer 280VC Bosendorfer - both great concert grands with different characters and slightly different recording techniques.
These are high end renderings designed for professional studio use, and really represent the cutting edge of what VST’s are capable of in 2021.
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Background
The Bosendorfer Imperial is one of the finest and most renowned pianos on earth, with more than 100 years of history behind it. It’s unique within the piano world for several reasons; for one, it is the only contemporary concert grand not to an inner/outer use a bent hardwood rim. It also has one of the widest soundboards in the industry, has an extra ⅔ octave on the bottom of the range, and has a floating capo and individually tied-off strings.
It’s known for a brassy bass, clear separation of tone, and a clean, singing treble.
The 280VC is a more modern instrument that makes use of a more contemporary rim design, though it does retain some of the principle of the spruce-paneled rim from its history, by way of a ½ inch layer of notched spruce that wraps around the rim. It’s a more blended sound than the Imperial, with a more complex treble, and a slightly warmer bass.
The two pianos were recorded in different spaces with a different complement of microphones, but both achieve a lively and accurate musical presence through the Synchron.
We hope you enjoy the comparison, and please leave a comment!
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Thanks for another great review, I really enjoy these reviews with all your knowledge about pianos and great playing.
Loved it!
Imperial 9:20 VC280 10:50 Imperial 14:33 280VC 15:13 15:48
i'm addicted to your piano vst comparisons
Love to hear more Classical on these Concert Grands.
Bought the 280VC and I love it! Thanks so much for the reviews Stu! It has this warm, inviting, yet clear sound I feel at home in. The clarity of the fundamental in the bass notes are just awesome.
I'll add that I think the 280VC, having been recorded in Hall B, really benefits from a little reverb
I am getting Bosendorfer 280 VC as well. I already have Bosendorfer Upright 130 and have been testing all the grand piano libraries
Thank you Stu. I was looking for a good comparison of these two sound engines. Both sound wonderful. I seem to be naturally more drawn to the VC over the Imperial though.
Thank you so much for this, it's definitely a choice that often comes up people who are considering the VSL libraries. I'm not nearly as skilled as you but use these two instruments to practice, and I've spent much too long going back and forth between the two to see which one I like better. I think I finally settled on the imperial and deleted the VC (for now) so I could just focus on playing.
One thing I've noticed that a few people have remarked elsewhere is that the VC has a harder sound overall. I don't know whether this is because of the instrument itself or how it was sampled, but it's more difficult to get that rounder, softer tone from the VC at pianissimo velocities. In fact, I have 4 of the VSL instruments and it's the only one where I actually feel the need to touch the velocity curve to get the sound I want.
The other noticeable difference I've found is with the releases. They're a lot more pristine on the VC, with quicker damping, while the Imperial has slightly slower, louder releases with a lot of character that really makes me think of a physical instrument (you can adjust the releases to be quieter and faster if needed, but not the other way around).
So while I think the VC and Imperial are neck and neck for bigger chords, faster playing, and louder dynamics, in quiet exposed playing, the above considerations mean that I really think the Imperial some extra character I miss from the VC.
On the other hand, the VC is a lot easier to get a dryer sound with, and I personally actually prefer the smaller room, which was a purposeful choice by VSL by the way; it's also used in their Bluthner and bosendorfer upright.
(The Bluthner is actually my favorite of the VSLs, but the vintage sound isn't for everyone.)
In any case, both are some of the very best VSTs money can buy.
All I know is the Ellen Masaki in Honolulu had a Bosendorfer Imperial in her piano store, as well as her personal piano which was a rebuilt 1910 Steinway B. My opinion was her own piano was the best of the two. She said she would never sell it. I know she did not care for the Imperial.
Hi Stu
I don't need to repeat (though I will!) to such an accomplished pianist as yourself what everyone else says... that it is always a delight to hear you play.
I have many of the piano VSTs you have reviewed but my current enjoyment comes from playing Embertone's Concert D. I currently only have the Lite version though I hope to upgrade around Black Friday time when I'll also see what offers VSL may have. Please let me know if you have any affiliate links - you should!
It's happening! Been patiently awaiting the continuation of this series. Perhaps like many of you I still can't decide which of these to purchase. Sadly, VSL do not offer standard version sound samples of many of their products on their website.
Unless I missed something the cfx/steinway/280vc comparison video has not released yet... Can't wait for that one!
Bosendorfer Imperial treble is so smooth i love this sound
Stu, that sure sounds like a variation on the theme from Star Trek on the first couple of improvs, although it ended differently. 😁
I really appreciate the depth of analysis and how you go about tailoring the settings. Great comparison video!
The 280VC was recorded in Synchron Stage B, a 740 sqft "live room offering a beautifully controlled acoustic environment with less ambience than the large main hall". Several of their pianos are recorded on Stage B. I think its a deliberate choice to offer more variety in their catalog of virtual pianos?
❤ your scales
Thank you! :)
all the stage one Synchron pianos are phenomenal...
fazioli f308
bosendofer imperial
Steinway d274
yamaha cfx
They're are GREAT
There are definitely a lot of excellent sample libraries out there! :)
I'm only 11 minutes into the video, and I'm so impressed by the Imperial! I doubt I'll pick the Vienna Concert today. The only VST instrument which rivals this for me is the VSL Yamaha CFX. That blew me away when Stu reviewed it, and probably remains my favourite VSTi, though we have yet to hear the CFiii. I hope VSL will do that too.
Update: Yes I'm still with the Imperial, though the upper notes on the VC are appealing. The Imperial's general clarity and intensity on the fundamentals are so nice, and in the bass and lower mids there's no contest as far as I'm concerned. Clarity in the lower mids and bass matters a lot to me. It's often a hallmark of a full concert grand, but some more than others, it seems.
Stu,
Without a doubt you have become my " goto" when it comes to foraging in the now real virtual piano frontier. My thinking about instruments, craftsman and their creations has become chrystal clear in head because of your reviews and your comments based on your experience as an artist and musician. In this particular review I have found the Imperial to be a paragon of what I would call the perfect piano....my preference is for classical genres. Your general mix of all styles illustrates how each piano model representation fits into the literature produced for piano. Thank you for this invaluable resource for the wild frontier of virtual piano. And I must add, the required software to make the mzgic happen. I think that in a future episode I would love to hear about the equipment, ie audio systems and what to expect as an outcome with live verses studio performances where speakers and amps are required in live performances and direct output input in the studio systems Thank you again...
Hi Stu, Kudos for your videos. Love them. You piqued my interest when you mentioned (1:40) 'you could probably get away with using a plug-in such as this in place of acoustic piano for a lot of studio recording environments provided that your input device was accurate enough'. How about the portable Yamaha p45, p125 or Roland fp30(x) - are they good enough to use for recording purpose? Or maybe some other portable stage piano/midi controller that I missed? The end goal here is an as-accurate-as-possible tool for classical / piano solo recording to support my pianoteq, cinepiano and maybe VSL in the future. Of course nothing beats a real acoustic piano. Like to hear your opinion.
The bass strings you are demonstrating around 13:00 are extremely important, and it's a reason large bass speakers don't work with a sampled or modeled piano. You have to distinctly hear the upper partials of the bass strings. It has been my limited experience that too large a woofer lacks the upper partials or causes the fundamental to be too strong. In the end the tuning is very important. What I like about Pianoteq Pro is the ability to tweak each individual note. Stu doesn't have the Pro software, and has said he not sure it's worth it. but I can assure you it is really nice to be able to adjust each note, because speakers have flat spots in them where certain notes sound dead. Some of the differences Stu is experiencing in the various ranges may actually be related to the speakers more than anything else. Of course the amp makes a difference too. Things have changed a lot, but if you are old enough to remember the good tube amps, they definately sounded better than transistors at least until we reached the fully digital age. Chasing all these piano voices is somewhat a waste of time. It's interesting, but expensive, and in the end you have use what you have and can afford. I appreciate how much technology has developed in terms of synthesis. That's why I'm firmly committed to digital pianos over expensive hard to maintain acoustics which are pron to damage from room humidity, moths, and termites.
Internet Privacy.. Those are good points. Of course this opens the discussion of amplification. We need to hear the fundamentals, but never to the exclusion of partials. Ideally we have 4 types of speakers - tweeters, warblers, woofers and sub woofers. Most of us are making do with just two. I did an experiment in my home studio the other day with 7 assorted speakers (from tweeters to sub woofers) some in pairs, and all working at once. I was reproducing digital piano, digital bass and vibes, with a little percussion thrown in. It sounded glorious.
The next big step in digital pianos should be enhanced/auxiliary speakers. Amplification is the biggest limiting factor right now. Good headphones help, but they still miss a lot. And who wants to wear headphones the whole time anyway.
@@Zoco101 my biggest problem is getting some good monitors. Im running a yamaha p125 through a PC with cheap yorkville nearfield montors. i Have the Garratin crx lite and Ivory II american D. But would rather play my apartment spinet for the realism. What would you recommend for powered monitors
@@katiegrundle9900 the P-125 should have some reasonable amplification onboard, but you can improve on it. If you can afford 8" powered monitors of a decent brand, that's the way to go. Even if you just add one 8" monitor via the piano's L/Mono output, that will reinforce your onboard stereo speakers very well. If I had no decent monitor speakers I'd take a chance on the inexpensive M-Audio BX8 D3, I mean for studio use. Maybe just one, then another. I suspect you get a bit of hiss.
Open baffle speakers are the only way to go so as to avoid cabinet resonances. The bass speakers you mentioned won't be producing the partials, the midrange/tweeters will be. An amazing open baffle speaker is the F15 by Lii Audio. It is full range.
I was like "finally! A classical song!" than "oops... almost"
Both of them are very very good
My first pick is the 280vc (i have if, it's a great instrument, very warm and 3 dimensional❤)
And then there's the imperial which i don't have but i demoed it more then once (thanks to vsl) and it's a fantastic instrument
These two (plus the newer synchron faziolis) are the most realistic sampled pianos you can get in today's market❤
Thanks for the video❤
You're very welcome! There are no doubts about these sample libraries being incredibly authentic and impressive. We're happy to hear that you've been enjoying them. :)
The 280 VC's treble definitely sounds more like a real piano to me. Perhaps being sampled in a smaller room did that some justice, or maybe it's the added experience VSL has now as opposed to when the Imperial was released. I'm admittedly not a huge fan of either piano's treble, but I definitely prefer the timbre of the VC. Either way, though, they're both welcomed additions to the world of piano sample libraries.
All things considered, I think VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 is still my favorite virtual sound, and the way it responds to staccato is unparalleled. I'll have to see what I think of the Synchron Steinway D-274 whenever I finally get to download it.
Have you tried the Embertone? Another really good one for staccato sampling. I do think the imperial sounds more realistic than the VC for staccatos as well.
But yes, i never cease to be impressed by the Ravenscroft. It and the modern U are the best sampled pianos in this regard. I think the quality of the samples is higher on the VSLs, in particular the sense of space, and the bass in the Ravenscroft feels a little bloated. But Im always impressed on what VI Labs managed with such a small library. The modern U is even better in terms of playability, just a less interesting tone for me.
@@napilopez no, I haven't. The only sample libraries I own right now are Keyscape, Garritan (sounds really pretty but too bright and dry sound is flat), Ravenscroft (my favorite sound so far when considering all the factors), and VSL Steinway (haven't tried it yet; waiting to get a new SSD). The Steinway seems very promising, though, and I'm hoping I'll achieve all my recording dreams and more by pairing it with Ravenscroft.
The imperial sounds more intimate. I liked the airiness of the VC, but (especially in the mid range), it sounded more "distant", somewhat hollow, almost as if there's some phase issues.
Man, that is splitting hairs
Agreed. I noticed that too. The upper midrange and treble was so much cleaner and intimate on the Imperial. The VC sounds harsher.
Hello Mr Harrison! Congratulations on the excellent work, may God bless you!
I would like to ask you a question...I own the Ravenscroft 275 and I think a lot about buying the VSL Bosendorfer Imperial because I really like the sound, do you think it's worth it considering the high price charged by the Bosendorfer Imperial? ($540)
What is your opinion?
Do you have a favorite among the VST libraries?
A big hug from Brazil!
Which software program are you using?
Fazioli or Bösendorfer would be my pick if I won the lottery. For now, I just need to find a nice electric keyboard so I can learn in a small home.
love your videos, but you should let us know that studio monitors and audio you are running it through. What near field monitors would you recommend on a modest budget
Hi Katie! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in! I would have to check with Stu as to what monitors and audio interface he is using. Also, we have had quite a few requests for our channel to tackle the best studio monitors to use in conjunction with VSTs. That topic has been added to the list for potential future videos. We will do our best to tackle it and provide our top suggestions! :)
can you review Synchron free Soft Imperial ?
I use mid-fi audio equipment, like Yamaha or Bose amps, Bose speakers, so I wonder what sort of upgrade I should need
to get the benefit of high-end VST's like this?
Find a Magnepan dealer and listen to some piano music.....amazing!
Any VST that has longer sounds definitely the best one. In this video,
VC version is the only one nailed the standard.
I wish Pianoteq got that right.
Did you use the Roland RD2000 just as a MIDI keyboard?
8:39 What's that piece and can I find the sheet music somewhere? It's wonderful.
Hi there! I would have to touch base with Stu as to which piece he is playing at that spot. It is very beautiful though! :)
@@MerriamPianos I'd also like to know! Such a beautiful piece.
Modern U Review, Stu!!!
So, from this video, I learned you went ahead and got the NV5. Would be great if you could do a "6 months" or "1 year" review of the NV5. Also interested if you use it as midi controller for VST's and how well the NV5's speakers work for playback of those (does it feel natural to play VST over the NV5 speakers, or are they tuned specifically / too much for its internal sounds?)
I wonder about the speakers he's using too.
I asked a similar question not long ago. In this video, Stu did say that it's too much trouble to connect the NV5 as a controller, since he can put the RD2000 on the surface he wishes to use. Reading between the lines, he doesn't miss the acoustic piano action too badly while playing these VST instruments. His taste in actions seems fairly broad, and he sometimes praises the merits of light'ish actions when playing for long hours.
Can someone help me out? I have vienna imperial and my piano is connected but there is no sound...I get only the message that the seleted file could not be found...I don`t know how I can have sound ...any advise?
I'm sorry to hear that you're having issues with getting sound from the VST plug-in. It sounds like it may be an issue with the pertinent files not being in the correct folders. With that said, it is difficult to troubleshoot remotely of course.
Is safe to say that the imperial is more for playing solo like classical music… correct?
Not necessarily. It ultimately comes down to how the player wishes to use the sound. With that said, sometimes, the larger concert grand samples can be so powerful that they dominate a mix, or specific frequency ranges in particular. But, with that said, you can always custom-tailor things sonically to your liking and musical needs. :)
Does anyone know if these VSL pianos run on the new Macbook Pro M1 Pro/Max machines? I have the VSL Yamaha CFX and am looking for a good laptop to play live gigs
I have a Mac M1 mini , the base model and when speaking to the guy at Microcenter about the question of keeping up with a virtual setup by with this computer, he straight faced told that he uses that very base model for very intensive 3D modeling and it didn't even break any kind of sweat producint the models and manipulations of those models. I am very well aware of the requirements needed for 3d modeling so I doubt that the MacBook Pro would respond to a virtual setup any differently than if it were 3d rendering.
Synchron pianos don not run natively on M1/M2
But Beautiful!
:)
My OCD's are killing me.... I'm terrified that doorknob is going to crush the Taylor on the wall.
(The vst however was 😍 👌)
Haha I can definitely understand that! I assure you that the Taylor is safe and sound. ;)
Beautiful.. Is there an iOS version? Thanks!
If you have the chance try the Vienna Grand Imperial from GALAXY PIANOS… for me is probably equal if not superior to this… 😊
Very nice! That is not a VST that I have had a chance to test out yet. Perhaps, we can tackle a review on it one day. :)
Stu’s reviews of VSTs are great. The only problem with the way they are done is that those VSTs are used as plug-ins in Logic Pro. We never hear much about VST piano players and potential issues with installation. There are problems associated with both VST PC installation and compatibility with Apple M1 architecture
Hi Michael! We will definitely try to incorporate some more info regarding installation and configuration processes when it comes future software and VST reviews. Thanks for the suggestion!
Your video was confusing about what I was listening to, and I generally love your video presentations, and your playing is remarkable. How about editing it and calling a Steinway a Steinway and a Bose a Bose? One 'VC' comment part way through totally screwed me up when I thought I was listening to the Steinway D and the caption said that it was the VC Bosendorfer. Are both considered VC's? If so then you need to be more specific. Unfortunately, we can't try these libraries out so you guys influence our buying decisions.
My apologies for the confusion. The "VC" of the 280VC stands for "Vienna Concert". The two piano sounds being compared here are Bosendorfer. The "Imperial" is Bosendorfer's 9'6" (290 cm) concert grand, while the 280VC is Bonsendorfer's 9'2" (280 cm) concert grand. Neither of these models are Steinways. I hope that clears things up a bit. :)
Five years ago, I would have be crazy for VSL. Now, I'm just done with samples. If they come out with a physically modeled library, I'll check back in. FYI, both Garritan and VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 are garbage. If you can figure out a way to make their respective companies transfer the licenses, you can have mine. Neither is currently installed.
Many companies are certainly going the direction of including some type of physical modelling to further enhance their samples and also offer more flexibility and adjustment in regard to the overall sonic experience.
I'm a professional classical and jazz pianist for 25 years if you really mean that garritan is garbage you either messed up with settings or you're not a professional pianist.
@@straizys Garritan doesn't even have key release noises. It's also hissy and takes forever to load. It is absolutely hot garbage... which is why my copy isn't installed at all. I have no use for it, especially since I've recently picked up Native Instruments Komplete 13 Ultimate Collector's Edition, which covers all of the bases in my music product workflow.
@@paullebon323 you are correct. i have garratin and had to tweak ererything and im still not happy with it. it does have great tunings settings. but my apartment spinet blows this out of the water, and its supossed to emelate a concert grand, go figure
The VC has an openness, a natural resonance, whereas the Imperial sounds like it is compressed--I like them both but prefer the VC.
Honestly, I don’t like vsl grand pianos sound, they are too clean and cold… the only one I think sounds rich and convincing is the Bluthner 1895.
Thank you! Agree. I was looking for a more neutral opinion here. CZcams usually has mainly positive comments on top. I am unsure, let's say, if I like them. For a reason I actually WANT to like VSL stuff because their more classical oriented portfolio but I have a hard time to really think these pianos nails it. Especially the demo is NOT convincing, too much Hall and in the massive chords overlaps and runs it all totally swims and start to sound like a synth pad. I mean in an unnatural way. A real piano swims on such massive chord runs too, but different. I hear and play classical piano over 4 decades and I probably listened to any important piano record which has ever been recorded so my ears are very trained regarding "real" feel. And all the hyped piano libraries didn't made me happy. Each has some major downfall in another corner. What do you think about Synthogy? Do they come closer? What libraries do you use if any? I saw your profile so you play too. Would like to read more of you on this.
Amazingly a very mundane comment was deleted almost instantly. I wonder who did it?
I've noticed that sometimes the first comment on a new video doesn't "stick", for some reason. You post it, and it appears to be there, but when you refresh the page, it's gone. I don't think it's a matter of the post being deleted, it's more of a back-end coding issue. I can't say for sure in the case of your "deleted" post, but... that's something I've seen before.
I wonder if I can tell on the 'back end' whether it was user deleted? As a general policy, we leave up all comments provided they're respectful, regardless of who it is or what the content. Definitely not us :)
@@MerriamPianos Probably not. My guess is that the internal link between the comment and its related video was lost, broken or non-existent at the time the comment was posted, or there was a communication failure between the host (i.e. the user's browser) and the server at CZcams. If the comment was created at all on the server database, the lack of the necessary link to the video's record/row in a separate table would result in the comment becoming "orphaned", so that queries for comments related to a particular video don't return that row. That's just a guess...
@@SeaDrive300 Sounds like a plausible explanation - I've had replies I've typed, pressed 'reply', and then it seems to just hang...looks posted but the page won't refresh, and then ultimately it disappears.
@@MerriamPianos That's why I always copy to memory (Cmd+A, Cmd+C on Mac, Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C on Windows) any post that is more than a sentence or two before I click Reply... ;-) In this case, it looks like the browser uploaded the comment (because it was able to display it), but it wasn't successfully posted to the database. Again, just a guess...