Jake here. I imagine this is going to be a VERY frustrating watch-I know I was frustrated watching myself back. By the time I recorded this, I had recorded one debate in which the JW told me not to release it after I was almost done editing it. So I was (overly) concerned with not pushing back. As you saw from the end of the conversation, I think this has opened the door for more back and forth with Russell, and I also wanted to make sure I GAVE A WITNESS (sorry) to any JWs watching, that apostates are not mean and combative or scary. So anyway, thanks for being patient with me, but the opportunity to talk to a JW on the channel is so rare that I wanted to make sure I didn’t mess up the opportunity for it to happen in the future.
You’re right about ex JW’s not being scary. We are just people that either left or got dfed for whatever reason. But we still bleed the same color blood as what they do.
@@Ithaca-vv5dy I think there are a lot of JWs that are witnesses because it’s the path of least resistance. My JW family is like that, I’m still very close to them even though I disassociated years ago, they seem to do whatever they want while keeping up JW appearances to their community.😊
@@thehigherevolutionary Even though my family “talks” to me the relationship is ruined. The relationship between them and my young children is ruined. I can’t leave my young son and daughter with my own sister, because she doesn’t respect me enough not to sneak and show my kids JW cartoons. They “talk” to me only to convert me. There’s no real connection!
It speaks volumes that the interviewee feels they have to hide their identity like a witness speaking against the mafia. If you can’t talk about what you believe openly and transparently, maybe you should reconsider if it’s “the best life there is”.
My non witness husband was basically on the floor laughing when we went to a exjw meetup and took some pics…I posted one in the group page at that time and one of the dudes that was talking the most smack ask me to take the pic down cause he was still fading. Its just so crazy when I think about it now.😂😂😂😂
_"If you can’t talk about what you believe openly and transparently, maybe you should reconsider if it’s “the best life there is”._ More accurately, you should reconsider if you actually have "the truth." *"True religion in no way practices secretiveness."* w97 6/1 p. 5 Condemned by their own words. Again.
I mean this in the most kindest and loving way: I think he still brainwashed and he doesn't recognize it yet. It's almost like he saying prison is better than being homeless. Being homeless your free and being in prison your a slave. I would rather be homeless or not a JW because I'm free. Stockholm syndrome. I've been there. I hope he comprehends this one day.
I agree with others that this is a great analogy. And its not really saying that one thing is better than the other. It's a matter of perspective. Perhaps some who have lived rough on the streets would feel much better in prison, and vice versa. They are "two evils" and its a matter of perspective as to which is the "lesser" evil.
I think the analogy needs the perspective that I've always been in prison (since i was raised in the ORG), my family is all in prison, and i've learned to live in prison just fine. I'm comfortable in prison. Being homeless would be new, could be more dangerous, and i'd be without my family/friends. I'm not sure it would be worth trading.
5 minutes in, sounds like "Brother Russel" has a bit more nuance than I expected. I always forget how big a spectrum there is on thinking in the organization. It makes me feel hopeful.
Thank you for being so brave Russel. I want to say that I have never had anything against JW's, in fact I love many of you, you are my family and my friends, I did NOT leave you, I left an Organization I no longer believed in. I did nothing wrong or sinful, which is why I believe that disfellowshipping will never "teach me a lesson," how can I learn from a mistake I never made? But Thank you! Both you and Jake, your conversation gives me hope that some day we can all believe differently and love the same.
The Organisation does things ..has policies deliberately set..which we are bound to find upsetting and ill fitting..unacceptable for our times... a time when people will protest ..and activists raise their voices unitedly in a cohesive community. Ps 2:9 expresses prophetically their sentiment. Little do we realise , its deliberate..done wi
@@jdos5643 I do know what a cult is and I also know what an opinion is. Totally real account not made by a jdub just for the purposes of commenting on apostate channels.
@@jdos5643 look at the BITE model which is used to define a cult. JWs tick all the boxes. You seem to be a JW who still can't admit you're in a cult. I know I couldn't for years, even after leaving.
@@jdos5643 you're not allowed to be here. You're not allowed to voice disent. You're required to believe in a God that, according to the Bible slaughtered every man woman child and infant save 8 on earth and is somehow still the personification of love. JWs believe he's going to butcher billions including my children and that y'all are going to, with the help of birds picking our bones have to clean up all of our corpses so that you can have picnics with pandas.
A cult is a religion with narcissistic traits . Just like this one , they control behavior, information, time and energy to the point you’re physically and emotionally exhausted
Well, props to him for actually doing it. Every elder that’s had the chance to speak with me ends up just running away and telling others to “be careful” around me because I’m not good association.
I relate with a lot of what he said because it's what I thought when pretty much from age 17-25. But then my kid started to get older and I couldn't bring myself to indoctrinate him. I couldn't be a JW mom making her kid sit at the meeting or spanking him until he could sit. I couldn't deny him all the magic of childhood. I couldn't let him be scared by thinking God was listening to his thoughts and that he might die at Armageddon. My son is so much better adjusted than I was as a kid because he can just be normal. If you want to stay in, fine. But if you ever want to have kids, you may want to reconsider
This was really interesting! I just want to add, that just because the witnesses may have helped people have a "better life", doesn't make the religion true 🤷♀️
Also joining JWs through choice as an adult is *completely* different to being born into the cult and spending your childhood and teenage years with forced on you during the most critical years of your development.
I think with the right parents, any religious community can have happy people in it. But JW makes you better? How would you know if you wouldn't have been better if you converted to Buddhism? Or like a hippie movement of peace and love absorbed you into their beliefs? If you're raised in it, and it's all you know, you wouldn't know if you felt even better being Jewish. If you have FUNDAMENTAL issues with the beliefs of JW, such as the disassociation thing, that's a problem, and sticking in a relationship with this church would only keep your family in, believing these things they're taught at childhood, and furthering the religion instead of changing it
I'll come up with a better handle at some point (as you know spur of the moment), but I appreciate being able to do this interview with you Jake. Perhaps in the future we can follow-up and ask me some of the harder hitting questions you might have. I like the graphic a lot. When you first told me that was what you were doing I envisioned a 1910 style picture - so that is a lot better. Cheers.
Hello Brother Russell. I'll see you in the back room... just kidding. I just wanted to point out that if the organization is teaching others actively to reject the emblems, and taking the emblems are part of how the Bible says we accept Jesus sacrifice on our behalf by entering into the new Covenant... then are you supporting an organization that is causing others to miss out on salvation by misleading them. If you are still donating to them, then you share in that. I woke up last year, and this and also being blood guilty about the blood issue are the main reasons I realized I could no longer support it despite being born in and putting in years of service. For the truth to be the truth it must be true.
Fascinating stuff! Russell, you seem to be a lovely and caring man. I hope the move to MS won’t put unnecessary pressure on your want to make small changes for the better. JWs in your congregation are lucky to have someone with such a nuanced outlook and kind disposition.
This is fabulous! It was really interesting to listen to. I’d actually appreciate more chats with JWs because Russell seems like a cool dude. It’s a much needed reminder to some that most witnesses are actually pretty normal decent people, and I think conversations like these can facilitate growth for all involved. Nice to see someone who refuses to shun too, brings me comfort that at least not every exjw is treated that way by absolutely everyone they knew before df/da
I have the sneaking suspicion that A LOT of us tried to be "selective" with our ministry. I remember asking my Elder father how I was supposed to preach to people and bring them into an organization that had congregations like ours (tons of cliques, misogyny, ableism, favoritism, bullying, on and on). He didn't have an answer for me. Unfortunately, as it stands, I personally feel like trying to change a system like this from the inside out requires an unrealistic level of optimism. Thinking about it, the Bible Students realized they just had to *leave* if they were going to survive as a group at all. For changes to occur, those making the decisions - those with the power - must want those changes to happen. For changes to occur, there would have to be a level of conscientiousness, compassion, understanding of nuance, desire for beneficial growth/change/progress and self-responsibility that just isn't present at the highest levels. EDITED: Sorry for all the edits - I'm not great at getting all my thoughts out at once (or spelling them correctly).
Kept away from reality..the Hebrew slaves ( future lsraelites) fleeing oppression in Egypt under Pharoah were shielded by the pillar of fire and cloud.. Likewise today..the witnesses not able or allowed to peek at the apostate words held out as enemies together with disfellowshipped ones to be avoided at all costs.. Not only for the reasons one might immediately think... Everything is told us within the bibles pages.. Just need to find it.. Search and you ll see..we ve had the pandemic in 2019, but see verse 17 & 18 of rev 19. Written In symbolic language. Human DNA overwritten by virus ..or CONSUMED our flesh. Who made this virus round in shape ?? Many aren't.. They named it CROWN..in latin 🤔
Really nice guest, as are so many JWs. I really felt for him hearing the amount of mental gymnastics he goes through to justify things that are wrong with the organization, but feels that similar apologetics shouldn’t be applied to actual Christian denominations. The WTS had to actually make their own horribly mistranslated Bible to support their ever-changing doctrine. I really feel for this gentleman. The pro-WT bias is wired into your brain to the point that, even while having serious doubts about the org, doing “research” about JW doctrine, Christian theology, etc, will still result in your brain making excuses for the JW beliefs subconsciously. Confirmation bias. We’re all guilty of it. Once you can come at it with the mentality of “I am going to put a pause on holding anything JWs teach as being of value, and will objectively investigate”, you’re on your way. Once you realize that no biblical scholar familiar with church history and with competency in Bible translation would ever become, nor has ever become, a JW should speak volumes.
Bingo. I studied w. Elaine Pagels and then did grad wk. They make nonsense arguments. Once I read a real Bible at an Ivy. But without college, I would not be so furious. But I am. He is using you! But a good try and idea.
I watched this today and while it was a great conversation, as a woman who left the organisation Russell represents perfectly the misogyny and power JW men have. Russell is obviously well read and intelligent, and handles his dissonance well. By default of being a male he has a voice and the ability and mechanisms to climb the Borg ladder to gain even more power. What if he does become an elder? He will then have even more power to step on the basic rights of women, children and single mums. The idea that he could change at that level from within bewilders me, as to be an elder you have already been fully indoctrinated, and on top of that you can demand double honour, it’s a recipe for abuse of others. These men (bodies of elders) with power work in packs and go for the jugular of anyone who dares to deviate from the group think. He talked about deciding whether you leave and lose everything or stay and try to change things. Surely just the thought of being on just one judicial committee where a female is quizzed inappropriately would make it not worth it. I encourage this open conversation but all I heard was another JW male seeking prominence. He also talked about Ray Franz having a golden opportunity, did he? They hunted him down and were not satisfied till they destroyed him, nothing has changed since then, he was the catalyst for the GB doubling down and trying to close every loophole, essentially landing where we are today where if you leave you must accept at the very least some loss, at the worst at your life imploding. Truth matters, my life imploded but the rebuild is worth every second of pain. The mere presence of ‘apostates’ and the content becoming mainstream does by far more good in raising awareness, inoculating people and offering a soft place to land for those brave enough to exit.
@@compositioncompilation could religious fanatics stop endlessly quoting the bible? You're not making any kind of point or argument by doing that, it's so empty.
My childhood was horrible being raised as a JW. I was terrified as a child about Armageddon. My own mother told me I was Spiritually weak from a very young age. I also new I was gay from the age of 7 or 8.. Knowing that I was what was being said to be abhorrent to Jehovah made my mental health an issue. I was tormented knowing that at some point if I came out that I would loose everything and everyone. So My experience in the organization was very negative, sad and depressing. I also think when we are going through the unpacking of the truth about the truth we try to rationalize the good over the bad. I came to the conclusion that the bad outweighed the good in almost every issue.
I'm really sorry for what you went through. I want to say that even as a believer I remember having conversations where I would actually say I don't believe that something so natural to humans can be wrong. How can god punish a person for something they cannot change? I knew same sex attraction was part of who a person was. I now know it's very common among quite a lot of animals, too. I was an outspoken child, so I was told that it's wasn't any worse that heterosexual porneia. But of course that's no answer because they don't believe in gay marriage, if they did it would have been a reasonable answer
Kudos to both of you for conducting an amicable conversation about beliefs and the JW organization. His motivation to persevere with his views until the group reforms its ways is commendable, but I don't have very high expectations that anything will happen, because of the group's stance on non-participation in any efforts to improve the society in which we live. However, stranger things have happened. That was a really good caricature of CT Russell you used.
I also worry about it. That kind of thinking is in lots of very very dangerous groups or situations. There is usually only one result from it, and it's not that the group changes for the better...
Not knowing the way out..is no criticism of those who are trying.. But what scripture reveals is that no matter our efforts this system stands condemned.. From the perspective of the Almighty..seen @ Rev 19:15.. He has seen enough suffering and misery and deems total reconstruction as necessary..using only the things He sees as desirable to rebuild. (Hag 2:7.) Sifting soil to select the very best..to grow and prosper the present seedlings for the future..starting with the harvest in this system. .. If we can be molded to become the best type of soil now by being modest walking with our God.
Shocking😮 At 7or 8 thking you,r gay.Children s ,t thk of sexual thg,s at that age.No way? If I was you I would question you,r mental state.Not JW,S Jesus was not Gay??? Seek help for you,r twisted brain,s thking.And repent of you,r sin,s.Gos destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their filth.Repent while you have time and seek God (Food F thght) 🤔
This is a really great conversation, Russell seems like a sincere person and it was nice to listen to someone who believes in god but isn’t obnoxious about it. He was respectful and open, and it was great to see two sides come together and have a civil conversation. Reminds me of those late night conversations with a friend where suddenly things get super deep. I’d totally be friends with Russell. Really great video Jake, this is awesome.
I'm not a JW at all but have a friend that's one and they can be very pretentious with me when it comes to our differing beliefs (and mind you I don't even try to debate or anything), so it's very refreshing to see someone like Russell who can just have a normal conversation about their beliefs without getting hostile and passive aggressive about it
Agree! I was a pompous, self righteous stick in the mud for many years, even after leaving JWs. I would say I had a tendency towards these traits however the organisation encouraged and heighten them. It has taken me many years to calm down, let go of perfectionism and stop offering my unsolicited opinion to people. I am a work in progress, but Russell is relaxed and I appreciate his and Jake’s discussion.
Not liking the way they ( Rev 11,s two witnesses..) preached John recorded was sufficient motive to seek to silence them . Symbolising the two witnesses.. the role they play ..as assigned by the Almighty ..is not one that's pleasing ..as God tells them to strike earth with PLAGUES. obviously that attracts negative press..causing hurt damage and death..not what we would expect of those Christ is with. Yet more unexpected things occur as the sheep are treated roughly.. See rev 19:15. Already had the birds feasting as our DNA has become consumed or overwritten by covid 19..we re told damaging our internal organs ,worldwide pandemic..see verse 17&18
Haha that hard shell of "I know The Truth and you are a dumb lizard beast" makes it hard to be with JW loved ones with any sincerity. The duality of how hopeless and depressed they are, while simultaneously thinking they're the only ones with Truth and Light and Love is.... Surreal.
@@Katie-dj4tr An interesting twist..lve just recently come to realise.... The truths that will hold the most impact we should expect to come..not from the center of true worship..but from those classed as apostates..as Ezekiels temple vision reveals .. The trickle is at the temple..the raging torrent that emptied into the Dead Sea us far far away from the temple where the GB place themselves !! Fascinating..isnt it ! It's the apostates and ex JW,s that reveal..the GB PLACE THEMSELVES in THE TEMPLE.(In 1919.. ex witnesses and critical thinkers ..activists pose the question..which bible verses show that They were appointed to look after the domestics in 1919 ???!!) As Jesus said to his opposers at times.. You yourselves are saying it !! It suffices that this matter is hi lighted.. It needn't even be true !! Prophecy is thereby fulfilled !! By PLACING THEMSELVES IN THE TEMPLE ..they are candidates for the title of the ANTICHRIST a scriptural term l had always taken as being something NEGATIVE ..displeasing to God !! The other title The Man of lawlessness can also sound a bad thing ..yet.. Of whom was it said He was RECKONED WITH THE LAWLESS ? CHRIST HIMSELF.. !! Isa 54:17b What matters Is Gods view of us.. See rev 11:6. . Plagues God directed Moses to strike Egypt with..perhaps there are some parallels worth considering. Rev 15:3 . The surge of additional information available online about witnesses and the leading members historically and currently..is part of fulfillment of prophecy !! Rev 16 indicates the scorching heat.. Ulcers & Hailstones..causing one's to blaspheme.. The two witnesses do not blaspheme.. those who are hurt as a result of the plagues....DO. Each of thee
Dude, there was nothing frustrating about watching this at all. This is probably the most fascinating JW-related conversation I've ever listened to. I appreciate you and him both for having this conversation and putting it up for us to see.
The thing that seems to resonate with the JWs I've talked to is something I heard from an Ex Mormon: "good about the church is not unique to the church and everything unique to the church is not good."
Great interview. You pushed back just enough on things you needed to. I prefer the conversational approach instead of spending an hour giving him the ol' razzle-dazzle. He had a lot of great points I partially agree with. But I think it boils down to having a belief and being comfortable with what you got. Appreciate that Russell had the security in what he believes to be able to talk about it openly. He's a rare breed.
@@altworldly I wouldn't. It's just I see and understand too much. I have to learn to be less blunt. Which is why I like your delivery. Factual, fair, but firm where you need to be. :)
Please make more interviews like this! I think you are opening lots of doors possibilities and views! It nice to have open communication like this. Thank you Jake 🙏
Credit where it's due to him for being brave enough to risk it and tell his side when most active JWs wouldn't. (I blame the insular nature of the organization, not the individual JWs for that). He says fundamental change to the organization is more doable from inside however, the moment you question anything, and don't conform, don't act the way a JW should, you're not in good-standing, or you are disciplined or you're disfellowshipped and shunned which they use to manipulate through fear. For change to happen from within the organization, it would probably take millions of JWs realizing the power in numbers and collectively protesting against the leadership.
After having spoken to many JWs while distributing Christian gospel tracts, I was surprised at how many were transparent enough to share their doubts about their association with the JWs, but continued anyway. I can only surmise that it is because, and only because they would loose family and friends if they leave.
I have two minds about this. Russell seems like a very reasonable and open minded person, and it makes me hopeful for other jw’s I know, that maybe they are also thinking about things, but obviously won’t talk about it. On the other hand it’s so hard to see someone who’s brainwashed and doesn’t realize it, it’s exhausting.
Critical thinking skills helped me to analyse interpretation of the use of the word Iron in the bible. Daniels dream image..: Iron legs.. Iron mixed with clay Iron rod for sheperding.. Fascinating insight...
Ex Catholic Ex JW still living, still reading the bible, still loving GOD and our King, the best life there is, for real. Just by my own, me and the family. Let God and Jesus guide you both we're ever you may go...
Deep breaths. So when the meth dad relapses and elders who have no training in addiction disfellowship him… where is the structure and community then? Not with witnesses. Nope. P.s. anyone needing some secular help with addiction try SMART recovery. Like AA but actually evidenced based and no religion.
@@k7450 yeah. They say that your “higher power” doesn’t have to be a deity. It can be a tree or the stars. An elder friend of mine was very uncomfortable mixing Jehovah with it. It’s super awkward as a witness and as an atheist.
This was refreshing! It’s nice to see two people with different opinions have a open healthy conversation (especially this subject). This is a step in the right direction, this is progress!
So, so true… being able to have a civil conversation like this ( and even on different topics) is something that is SERIOUSLY missing in today’s world!!
The desire to be an agent for change from within is one I can relate to. Even had idealistic visions of being a CO or an upper level bethel member someday. At some point after the broadcasts began and the uptick of messaging about “listen” and “obey”, I began to realize the system itself is built to resist non conformity and change, and that any meaningful progress would be minuscule, decades away and Id be completely out numbered. I was still an MS when I read CoC and it confirmed for me what I had seen on elder bodies. Kinder elders (and former elders who couldn’t take it an stepped down) would confide in me about the dictator mentality of other elders. You get to a point where you move into a new hall and are awaiting your recommendation letter, but within weeks, you can see who the “enforcer” Elders are and which Elders cower and fear them and which Elders are more “Christlike” but feel stifled. Sometimes you can catch them having little pissing matches through their comments in the WT study. You stroke the egos of the enforcers, make sure you know what some of their pet issues are so you don’t run a fowl of them and cross your fingers that you get reappointed at the next COs visit. The whole thing just became such a clown show to me over time. I hope he makes MS, he will learn so much from that experience. I’ll just add, that all of these kinder elders had been on JCs and voted against DFing, been outnumbered and seen as too soft and had their own “Crisis of Conscience” over it as a result.
I felt the same way when I was still a JW. I wanted to help reform things and make the religion a better healthier place, and I really felt I had Jehovah's backing. But it eventually all came crumbling. It's impossible to change things because it's to its very core this organization is a high control group based on the complete obedience to a select few. There's no way for individual members, no matter how many there are, to successfully make a change, because as soon as they are found out, they will suffer the consequences and things are always twisted to show that it's their fault and that the governing body can never be wrong. I wish it were possible, but it's not. We just need to accept the truth, no matter how much it hurts.
😢 I’m currently inactive, but I still have hope.. I started attending church & it seems like a kinder atmosphere, but I can’t believe the trinity doctrine 😅 Jehovah’s witnesses (at the moment) seem to be one of the only groups praising Jehovah in my locality. There are some assemblies of yahweh groups but too far from me.
there is a way to successfully make a change: leaving in droves. But it seems that although there was a drop around 2020 - 2021, the organisation is growing again. I don't "see" this "leaving in droves" thing all these apostates are talking about.
I was raised in a cult sect of Christianity. As an adult, my parents tried very hard to effect change from within, but after years of beating their heads against the proverbial wall, they came to the inevitable conclusion that the church didn't want to change. They left shortly after i did.
I understand Russell, for truely believing that it's a net positive, and that he appreciates the JW upbringing. When you're still in, and even when you're fresh out, you have to believe that it was good for something. You have to justify it, and convince yourself that it was something valuble. I used to appreciate that I was raised in the orginization. It made me a good, decent person, that tries to help people when I can. But it's not because of JW's. Those are the things I decided to hold on to. Those are the things I decided to keep. The ways it fucked me up, far outweigh the good I got from it. And I'm sure I could've still been taught honesty and right from wrong, without also being made to isolate myself from 'worldly' people, as a child; for having this guilt and shame for the terrible crime of making friends with decent kids at school. The worst thing about being a JW, is just how much of your life they demand from you; how much of your life, they force you to miss out on. I have no significant memories from high school, because I didn't participate in anything. But I looking back on the same time period, I don't have any cherished memories in field service, or at the meetings, it was just as hollow and unfulfilled.
To point that disfellowshipped ppl don't have a strong relationship with God/Jehovah when they are told to leave - Many of us who are Dis'd treasured our relationship with God and voluntarily went to the elders for an arbitrary & traumatic judicial committee.
I think this is a really good forum to allow JW's to have an outlet for their doubts and talk freely without judgement. If it helps even one person escape and gain freedom. It is so worthwhile. Thank you for what you are doing.
Jake, I appreciate your patience and approach. This was extremely interesting to watch and very frustrating. I believe he stays because his life is good and he doesn't want to lose it. He has talked himself into how to do that and not feel like a hypocrite. The fact that he came on anonymously shows the organization is very flawed. One point that struck me very hard was that the organization is good for lower income people because it gives them a group. Lower income people with limited means are easy to control and frighten. Religions and governments have been doing it for centuries. Keep doing what you do.
Actually when was a JW, I felt that I was severely limited by the people I could associate with. Mostly uninspired few in number. Since I’ve broken out , and liberated myself, I have a sea of interesting intelligent people surrounding me. What a relief that was! Why not just shun the former congregation? If they shun you, just shun them back!
I appreciate this conversation so much you two!! Thank you for this! I studied with JW’s regularly for 3 years and loved it. I loved the friends I made, I loved the congregation I went to, I loved my studies, and there was quite a lot about the teachings that I loved and it honestly saved my life at that point. However, there were still a few things holding me back that prevented me from pursuing it further. I haven’t yet met a JW I didn’t like. There are many things I still follow to this day, but I have felt the necessity of taking my spiritual education into my own hands. I think that we just have to remember that when it comes to putting our spirituality in the hands of others or an organization, that they are in fact JUST people. And I think there’s something in the New Testament that warns us about doing that (lol I may be wrong- but I’m pretty sure lol). But I think it’s an important journey of the self to focus on the internal relationship of the self and the creator. To conclude, I think this whole video is great. Thank you both so much for sharing! Much love to both of you!
Oh Gawd 🙄 seconds in and already he’s calling himself “exemplary” 🤮 Sounds like this cult is PERFECT for him. It appears not everyone are meant to wake up. Bless his heart. Jake all the while was humble, respectful and compassionate. I look forward to more of this content‼️
I agree with your summation at the end. His reasoning could be applied to any church, "well, I can see how this thing/belief, whatever it is, isn't correct, but if I stay, I can help to change it." Also, the trinity seems to also be a major sticking point for why jws feel so compelled to remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses. There are several groups that don't believe in the trinity, so why stick with jws? I think it boils down to pride, they believe the religion is "the truth" even if it's riddled with lies and cannot admit it may not be the truth, that there may not be a singular truth. Personally, like you, I can't live a hypocritical life.
I applaud the conversation and the attempt. I just can’t get behind behind “being kind” to people who by no means would show that kind of attitude to someone who isn’t one of them. They exclude, judge and if you try to leave amicably, they do everything to ruin lives. They honestly aren’t deserving of kindness. But that’s just me…, I’m glad you were able to restrain yourself man, I absolutely wouldn’t have been able to
@@altworldly I suppose in the exchange he was, but my point is as a group, if he believes in the theology, which it sounds like he does, he inherently believes that if you don’t believe what he does, you are worthy of destruction. There really is no getting around that. He’s obviously more reasonable than most, but being honest, he’s not really being a “true” JW by doing that. Being an à la carte JW would sure make things easier, but the fact is as an organization, you aren’t allowed that flexibility. Like I said earlier though, I do respect your conversation and everything you do on the channel! I think you are doing great work Jake!
@@dantheman9936 I try and separate out the "theology" and "doctrines" vs the petty rules that men seem to scheme up to apply to those they want to dominate. Jesus stayed part of the Jewish community and separated fundamental teachings and beliefs in his Father vs what the pharisees tried to enforce that went well beyond scripture and the law. Remember too, not all the pharisees were like this - some actually spoke against and acted against their peers. If you were a Jew in Jesus' time you might also suggest he wasn't a "true" Jew by the same parameters.
@@incognito_JW I do understand what you are saying and while it isn’t wrong per say, it’s ultimately not what matters in my opinion. Knowing things are wrong and marching to the beat of your own drum is great, but you seem to be downplaying the weight of who you affiliate yourself with. When you identify as a JW, that comes with a lot of weight and baggage. You not agreeing with the governing body or feeling like rules need to change has nothing to do with latching on to the name/organization of JW’s. To use an example, you can’t say “The confederate flag doesn’t mean to me what it means to others”. If you fly that flag, figuratively speaking, you co-sign it, period. I commend your way of thinking, I really do, but without intending to sound disrespectful, you seem to have a fairy tale version of what being a JW means and what that organization is guilty of.
@@dantheman9936 This is and has been my point of view about JWs! Of all of the religious ppl I’ve come across, the JWs were the most self loathing, disrespectful, and down right mean group of so called “True Christians” I’ve ever had the miss pleasure of meeting. Not to mention JWs do absolutely NOTHING to help out the community and have so much to say about the religious groups that actually help their communities.
When it comes to making changes slowly from the inside; the problem with that is that Watchtower is a regime run by a dictatorship. You would need something like a revolution to make changes.
Ironic that he hides behind a sketch of CT Russell . Russell's theology was far more liberal than , that of WT today , which has very little if anything in common with the original Bible Student movement , who still exist . One thing sadly lacking with JWs ,is they don't have a deep inner , personal relationship with God and Christ , instead they have a relationship with an organisation .
Jesus Christ perfect conversation!! Great oponions, both, hope the people learned a lot. Thanks Jake for the diferent vídeo aproach. All hearts are diferent budy, but you two guys are good hearted men, thanks also Russel...take care J🤠👏👏👏👏
The problem is how they have changed their bible to fit their doctrine. In some places they have changed it SO much that they have changed the meaning. God gave us the Bible and they changed it.
The fact that this Witness was willing to debate an ex-JW, means mind-wise, he’s already part out -The Watchtower is a high control religion/publishing company. Russell would be punished just for speaking to a former member if caught. Although not a sin, within the bounds of the organization his actions would be called a sin. Forbidden, verboten.
I really enjoyed this conversation! I know you didn't really push on issues this time but it was super interesting getting to hear Russel's perspective. If more people like him were in charge at Watchtower then maybe things would get better. Unfortunately I don't see that happening, but I really appreciated his perspective.
great interview. born and raised a jw. my sister is a catholic, my brother is a buddhist, and I'm a pantheist. we did not go the hardcore atheist route.
I haven’t had time to finish this yet but I’ve really enjoyed what I’ve heard so far. Thanks so much to Russell for coming on; would love to see this kind of dialogue between witnesses and non-witnesses more often. Great work Jake. :^)
Ray Franz said Jaracz was the personality who decided most things. He ultimately outlived Ray, if I recall. I don't think Ray ever would have made much headway.
I'd like to know if you could cite where it describes him that way - i'd like to know if I"m wrong about that since I got the impression Henschel and Schroeder where the dominate ones. Regardless, when Franz came on in 1971 he was the youngest and the time - Jaracz came on after Franz, and so my point was Franz would have had seniority at some point....and just like the fact that Jaracz eventually was "the guy" for so long everyone pointed to. Franz could have been that, and apparent due to being related to Fred. At the end of the day it would be how determined Franz was... i get the sense most GB members are followers of the group thought. Get 2-4 on your side and you own the room...just like most elder bodies.
"If enough people stayed in place and changed their mindset, your gonna fix the organization at some point" A large factor in getting any organization to change its approach is to vote with your feet. If people are leaving because of the organizations policies then the leadership must adapt or face elimination. This would work for like a company for example, because the company is subject to outside selective forces in the marketplace and staying in and improving the company helps it compete better. I don't think the same incentive structure can work for Jehovahs Witnesses becuase it is on the other side of a crossroads that happened back in 2010. The start of the internet age. The crossroads is essentially do you focus on making your religion appealing to people who are not already in it by adapting to the ideas that have risen to the top in a much more interconnected marketplace of ideas, the creme of a powerful selection process. Or do you use cult mind control to hold tighter and tighter on to your existing members and make the religion an all encompasing culture that makes each member closed minded so they aren't persuaded by better more true conclusions of the larger deliberative body of the rest of the species? They clearly chose the latter and can only continue along that path forever. I don't see any mechanism whereby they can escape the feedback loops that make the cult mind control pattern a stable condition that has persisted in many other groups of people for literal millenia. If people are leaving for opposite reasons however, this does not exert pressure to change since a move to either direction would not change the number of people leaving. Stuff like one person leaves becuase they are too strict and another leaves because someone in power brushed something off that they thought someone should have been punished for. On balance there is no way to improve.
I have been inclined to think that Christianity itself would've dissolved long ago if not for ecclesiastical authority, literally forcing conformity. I think if the GB lightened up on their authority the entire organisation would lose its cohesion and break up.
@@Rupunzelsawake Perhaps, catholacism doesn't seem to be hurting much and there are millions of lukewarm catholics in name only. What keeps it alive seems to be the profundity of ritual and retained historical wealth.
@@alexanderx33Mmmm..yeah..maybe. I don't know how much the Catholic church is hurting but it is. Financially, CSA scandals and payouts....and it's had difficulty for as long as I can remember in recruiting to the priesthood and to convents. It remains to be seen how influential the pope will be on the world stage in years to come as the percentage of non practicing/non contributing Catholics increases. I guess it helps that Vatican City is its own country! Lol. Some would argue that those Catholics in name only are not really Catholic and not really Christian, anyway, dont you think?
Nice interview. Still can’t convince me being in is what will influence change. I think the masses leaving is what will ultimately force change in the organization.
REALLY agree with the cut in you made Jake about how they 'model' Jehovah. This was the root of my biggest issue. The create God and define him, in order to enact control, rather that just let the bible/Jesus explain who he is. I agree that this is one big reason exJws go to the atheist route. I can totally understand why they feel God is defined as the horrible God defined by JWs and therefore lose faith in Him.
I have a comment for “future Jake”… I wasn’t raised JW and I honestly have only interacted with them once when I was 17 and mysteriously got blacklisted. I was a very well versed Catholic at the time. Nevertheless, following my entire faith journey that took me through several denominations and lastly into atheism, I keep being told that I never seriously believed and never inquired well enough. When I was 17, I was well known in my congregation because I was a regular around the altar, especially when reading, and I taught confirmation classes. Regardless of everything I ever did, which was always quite intense, I am still confronted by people who claim I didn’t do it right. In their mind, if I had done it right, I wouldn’t have left. If I had done it right and they are doing it right, they may have to admit that they could technically also wind up leaving one day and that thought is unthinkable.
I'm fascinated by anyone who remains a JW after reading, for example, The Gentile Times Reconsidered. The reader must know that if 607 BCE is false, then 1914 is false. That means that God's Kingdom wasn't established in 1914, war in heaven didn't break out, Satan wasn't cast down to the earth, and we're not in the last days. If 1914 is false, then so is 1919 when Jesus is supposed to have chosen the Watchtower leadership to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, namely Mr Joseph Rutherford et al. How can one, knowing this, go out on the ministry a preach such balderdash? Anyone not on the Governing Body who wants to make changes from within, is doomed to be removed as an apostate
In my family in Texas I was surrounded with JWs...on my real father's side...on my mother's side...on my stepfather side...I was a regular pioneer for ten years...went to Bethel (to visit)...in a meeting with a DISTRICT overseer...he said something astonishing to all of us...he said "This may not be the most perfect organization on earth, but, it's the closest we got "...I still LOVE the organization and living in New Mexico I understand the fanaticism of JW in certain sections...not just JWs but religious factors throughout . .I LOVE your program!
And this is why I always remind myself that we must always continue to differentiate between organization and members. Definitely members like Russell with nuanced views and ambitions for growth and change within the organization they choose to remain apart of are our allies, not our enemies. We can work toward similar goals while having different methods and even different beliefs. Thanks for coming on Russell, I’m sure it could’ve been a daunting idea, so I hope most of us proved to be not a hostile crowd. Also great job on the interview Jake! Nicely done man!!
The JWs are led by apostste anointed. They’ve gone against Jesus who said “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks” (John 4:24). Not only does WT not have truth (John 14:6), but they have set up an idol religious organization, a physical form of worship that God does not endorse. “48“However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 49‘Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,Or what is the place of My rest? 50 Has My hand not made all these things?’” (Acts 7). The WT does not represent God. Why stay? They are a false prophet (Deut.18:20-22).
Well said. Once I realized in my heart the Borg is a false religion for many reasons, it would be selfish and blatantly disgraceful to God if I stayed. As Christians, it is our direction from Christ to not just “go along” with a religion because its “better than nothing”… or “its the most true one”. Jesus our savior is The perfect example of this.
I noticed Russell mentioned "Get out of her" (Rev 18:4 I think) . I wonder what he thinks that means and why it doesn't apply to the jw org, now that he's discovered so much wrong with the org and is aware of all its "acts of injustice."
@@serafin1352 Could you show me one piece of evidence, external to the bible, that Jesus was divine? Just one. I'm genuinely wanting to believe but can't without evidence and a loving god wouldn't expect people to either as that wouldn't be illogical, so there must be actual evidence somewhere.
I am SO happy that you had the chance of talking to an active JW here. And and I thank Russell for contributing. You both were honest. I do have a question though about a Scientologist who was almost ( about 6 years away) from being at the top who could have made a difference.
I believe a big problem is the fact that much of what the JWs teach may be truth, but principally important things are very wrong and people have trouble differentiating between truth and error.
On my JC for Porneia, the three new Elders could not decide. One said df, one said no and the third couldn't decide. Long story short, after six months my Elder dad wrote to the Branch asking advice. The Branch said it was not their practice to make a decision but to consider that if I had been a good JW for the past six months, with witnessing Etc Etc. then that should demonstrate my repentance and not knowing if I would be dfd for the past six months or not could be considered discipline enough. This whole thing was the beginning of the end for me. Loving shepherds? Hardly. And I was the one that was supposed to be forgiving of them even though they never apologised or acknowledged anything was wrong.
I remember talks back in the 70's that Jehovah will vomit you out of his mouth because you were not "refreshingly cold" or "stimulantingly hot", Jehovah will vomit you out of his mouth... Rev. 3:16 ...I considered myself lukewarm and that scripture didn't sit right with me... 🥀
@@iyesis : Also, it didn't take much for me to get "marked" in the congregation. What did it take❓...depression, few if any hours in field service, and wearing a rockstar tee shirt (The Who)...I actually couldn't figure out why ANY of my "friends" couldn't even go out for a cup of coffee... What I was told was, "Jehovah's people were happy people" and was shown scriptures to prove it... When I went to another Congregation, (one of my "friends" who happened to have transferred there) started telling people that I was from his former congregation and had been marked... One of the brothers he told, said, "Don't worry about it, I'll take care of it"... We've been very happily married now for 40 years ...💖
He's going to be back before a committee for a serious lil chat within the next couple of years. He's not gonna change jack. At least he knows who to call once he's bounced the next time.
Good job with this interview & going through with it. I'm sure it took some courage & tactfulness, thanks to all the years of the Organization's theocratic training😅😉
This was a great conversation. Civil and willing to listen. I wonder that ex-JWs need a new term PIMA (physically in mentally ambiguous). Hope you can talk with Russell again. He's articulate and is open to different ideas without just rejecting them out of hand. I do sense a certain level of both the sunk cost fallacy and Pascal's Wager, however.
Idk why I never thought about there being an ex-JW community, but I recently discovered the ex-JW side of CZcams by happy accident, and have been making my way through different channels the past few weeks. Yours is one I really enjoy because I can relate to a lot of your experiences. (Apologies for the following info dump; I have no chill.) I don't have a disease as destructive as yours, but I was a sickly, raised-in child who spent hours and days at a time simply praying for Paradise so I could have a perfect, healthy body. Even now when my JW dad squeezes personal information from me, he replies with some form of "the new system will be here any day." Like it will comfort me more than my surgery or whatever lol. (This is the body i have, omg, please just accept it. I've done a lot of personal work to do so myself. It's almost crazy to think now about how I was allowed to donate my own blood for my back surgery at 17, but I was in existential dread for weeks about whether it would be enough, trying to squeeze a lifetime into those weeks. Because even then I was still conditioned to believe it was The Truth, despite the imperfection and hypocrisy of the organization. Because I still didn't know about how the watchtower was created. 😱) I enjoyed listening to this interview. Especially the part that you didn't actually get to explore about ex-JWs and their religious beliefs, because it made me think back on my own journey of examining my faith and beliefs, and how I ended up landing on agnostic atheist with pagan interests. I technically left the organization when I was 14 (I'm almost 41 now), but I struggled for years after about what my actual beliefs were, because it was the hypocrisy of the organization and not its belief system that made me pull away (dad was an abusive alcoholic former elder who never got counseled; mom "committed adultery" to get a divorce. Mom was DFed. All her friends turned against her and LIED IN COURT to help my dad get custody. Dad was given full religious rights, until at 14 I had the legal right to choose my custodial parent.) I was able to do a lot of my discovery journey during my teens and 20s without anyone really knowing because of my family situation. And my journey had many paths that converged-- I did a correspondence course for high school and had to do the evolution and psychology units--I told my dad that I just made up my answers according to what the teachers would want as an answer, but in truth it made me think about how we can trust science for things like the makeup of things and carbon dating, and how the brain works. It kind of helped me understand my own trauma, but also why my MOM was the way she was. My dad always derided my favorite aunt for disassociating as a teen and becoming a witch, and would call me a witch when I would question things as a child, so I became determined to learn about wicca and pagan faiths despite my fear of inviting demons. This led to learning about many different theologies and mythologies with similar stories to the Christian ones. Whether JWs believe in or celebrate Christmas and Easter, for example, is immaterial when their teachings about Christ's return also similarly parallel the pagan festivals about the sun/son being reborn into the world! Only, for JWs and other doomsday Christians, it's about the world ending and either going to Heaven or being given eternal paradise; whereas in pastoral rituals it's more like "hey don't worry, the sun will be back and things will grow again. We do this every year. The sun/son dies but he is reborn. This is the cycle of life." Also I became really interested in yoga and vegetarianism through learning both about eastern religions and becoming obsessed with the Beatles at 13. Found out through practice that regular low impact yoga improved my health (scoliosis and digestive issues). Studied a lot of history through reading biographies, and really started to think about all the times in human history that the circumstances would've fit the "prophecies." Later, this interest in history got me into podcasts, and I started listening to a series on cults. A couple of the episodes were about well known wiccan and pagan cult leaders who are revered in most of the magic books I read, and this again made me think about all the belief systems I knew about and the similarities of how they sprang up around people who found validation in having followers, and how the structures adapted to its leader's desires over time. Often they start with a handful of people trying to live like their leader says life should be lived, and it gets progressively controlling over time until they are suffering from groupthink through behavior control. I ended up feeling that any organized religion-- even faiths as unorganized as Wicca-- was ruined by the fact that it was created by humans that became increasingly controlling as their following became entrenched. That every "belief system" seems to start with a small cult following that believes the most outrageous claims about supernatural events that cannot be proven. In a lot of ways, I still follow Jesus's teachings on how to treat people. I just don't believe the claims about him were 100% true. (And I think of my life philosophy more in the wiccan rede way: if it harm none, do what you will.) I don't think I need a religion to be a good person, and I don't believe the bible is inspired of God. I think it's a collection of stories passed down to explain cultural histories and parables about how to live. But I also think.. uh, Jesus doesn't sound that different from the stories of many cult leaders or influencers today. There are many stories of people who thought they were chosen by god or messengers of god, that JWs don't believe and eschew as lies of the devil or demonic posession, and I can't help thinking "okay, why doesn't that apply to jesus? There are plenty of people that get "healed" by faith healers, and JWs don't believe in that, but then how do we know that Jesus actually healed anyone? Or walked on water? Because his APOSTLES said so 2000 years ago? Lol..." In many ways, I think of King Arthur and Jesus in the same way. I've read scholarly and anthropological discourse on whether the stories of King Arthur were based on a real pre-Saxon king (or maybe a FEW kings), the stories of whom became folktales and then legends. To me, this seems a reasonable assumption to make about the bible stories as well. And recently, I'd gotten into watching anti-multilevel marketing CZcams, and had been thinking about how the structures of those remind me a lot of JWs as well. (Particularly interesting to me, because I often think about how, instead of drugs, organized religion has been my mom's coping mechanism for her trauma, and she also has a MLM habit.) In fact, watching those videos is how my algorithm got me over to ex-JW-tube lol. And now it is apparently a hyperfixation. (I want to write bisexual awakening Jade/Neeta fanfic lol. Wtf.)
I’d actually have clicked on this video more quickly if the title had been “A Conversation with an Active Jehovah’s Witness.” Regardless, interesting vid. :)
This is EXCELLENT video - informational and thought provoking. JW should encourage MORE of this, not attempt to discourage an open discussion such as this. AWESOME job.
I had four at my judicial in 2018. Saving you from the long story, they made their decision before I even met with them the final time. They were infuriated I used their nwt and witness back to them, That I argued my case, That I called them out for being obviously biased. Not to mention, certain others in the congregation did some df type things and were allowed to slide by with a slap on the hand. Etc. ….Same area I have observed df’s due to speaking with so called apostates. In the 90’s there was a congregation shakedown about it.
In addition listening to the last portion. Yes the need for an org is huge for some. But honestly it translates to fear, because the answers regarding the need for an organization like watchtower or not come sometimes after you leave. And reading different translations of scripture helps a lot to understand how watchtower has used the Bible to validate their existence.
Jake here. I imagine this is going to be a VERY frustrating watch-I know I was frustrated watching myself back. By the time I recorded this, I had recorded one debate in which the JW told me not to release it after I was almost done editing it. So I was (overly) concerned with not pushing back. As you saw from the end of the conversation, I think this has opened the door for more back and forth with Russell, and I also wanted to make sure I GAVE A WITNESS (sorry) to any JWs watching, that apostates are not mean and combative or scary. So anyway, thanks for being patient with me, but the opportunity to talk to a JW on the channel is so rare that I wanted to make sure I didn’t mess up the opportunity for it to happen in the future.
It’s at least not as painful as that “debate” you had with that anti trans guy. Hahaha.
OOF yeah also I wanted to avoid a repeat of that
I’m just so confused why you’d still be a witness?
You’re right about ex JW’s not being scary. We are just people that either left or got dfed for whatever reason. But we still bleed the same color blood as what they do.
@@Ithaca-vv5dy I think there are a lot of JWs that are witnesses because it’s the path of least resistance. My JW family is like that, I’m still very close to them even though I disassociated years ago, they seem to do whatever they want while keeping up JW appearances to their community.😊
If your family and friends still talk to you when your disfellowshipped, you haven’t experienced Disfellowshipping.
That’s not exactly true.
Yeah that’s not true. It’s way more to it then this or that alone
Excuse me “you’re*”
@@syvallia24 Shunning is the whole point of disfellowshipping. How is that not exactly true?
@@thehigherevolutionary Even though my family “talks” to me the relationship is ruined. The relationship between them and my young children is ruined. I can’t leave my young son and daughter with my own sister, because she doesn’t respect me enough not to sneak and show my kids JW cartoons. They “talk” to me only to convert me. There’s no real connection!
It speaks volumes that the interviewee feels they have to hide their identity like a witness speaking against the mafia. If you can’t talk about what you believe openly and transparently, maybe you should reconsider if it’s “the best life there is”.
this
Exactly!
My non witness husband was basically on the floor laughing when we went to a exjw meetup and took some pics…I posted one in the group page at that time and one of the dudes that was talking the most smack ask me to take the pic down cause he was still fading. Its just so crazy when I think about it now.😂😂😂😂
_"If you can’t talk about what you believe openly and transparently, maybe you should reconsider if it’s “the best life there is”._
More accurately, you should reconsider if you actually have "the truth."
*"True religion in no way practices secretiveness."* w97 6/1 p. 5
Condemned by their own words. Again.
Il come on and talk and show my face if you like? Happy to talk
I mean this in the most kindest and loving way: I think he still brainwashed and he doesn't recognize it yet. It's almost like he saying prison is better than being homeless. Being homeless your free and being in prison your a slave. I would rather be homeless or not a JW because I'm free. Stockholm syndrome. I've been there. I hope he comprehends this one day.
I was thinking the same thing.
Great analogy. There's a limited/sheltered way of thinking.
Yep that was what I was thinking too. How could you drag yourself out D2D every weekend without full devotion is beyond me.
I agree with others that this is a great analogy. And its not really saying that one thing is better than the other. It's a matter of perspective. Perhaps some who have lived rough on the streets would feel much better in prison, and vice versa. They are "two evils" and its a matter of perspective as to which is the "lesser" evil.
I think the analogy needs the perspective that I've always been in prison (since i was raised in the ORG), my family is all in prison, and i've learned to live in prison just fine. I'm comfortable in prison. Being homeless would be new, could be more dangerous, and i'd be without my family/friends. I'm not sure it would be worth trading.
5 minutes in, sounds like "Brother Russel" has a bit more nuance than I expected. I always forget how big a spectrum there is on thinking in the organization. It makes me feel hopeful.
I knew guys like this 25 years ago. I was one of them. We tried for reforms. We all ended up quitting.
Thank you for being so brave Russel. I want to say that I have never had anything against JW's, in fact I love many of you, you are my family and my friends, I did NOT leave you, I left an Organization I no longer believed in. I did nothing wrong or sinful, which is why I believe that disfellowshipping will never "teach me a lesson," how can I learn from a mistake I never made? But Thank you! Both you and Jake, your conversation gives me hope that some day we can all believe differently and love the same.
"how can i learn from a mistake i never made?"
Very well said.
The Organisation does things ..has policies deliberately set..which we are bound to find upsetting and ill fitting..unacceptable for our times... a time when people will protest ..and activists raise their voices unitedly in a cohesive community. Ps 2:9 expresses prophetically their sentiment.
Little do we realise , its deliberate..done wi
Having to be on here as an anonymous person proves the jdubs are toxic and cultish.
No….that’s just your invalid opinion…..do you even know what a cult is?
@@jdos5643 I do know what a cult is and I also know what an opinion is. Totally real account not made by a jdub just for the purposes of commenting on apostate channels.
@@jdos5643 look at the BITE model which is used to define a cult. JWs tick all the boxes. You seem to be a JW who still can't admit you're in a cult. I know I couldn't for years, even after leaving.
@@jdos5643 you're not allowed to be here. You're not allowed to voice disent. You're required to believe in a God that, according to the Bible slaughtered every man woman child and infant save 8 on earth and is somehow still the personification of love. JWs believe he's going to butcher billions including my children and that y'all are going to, with the help of birds picking our bones have to clean up all of our corpses so that you can have picnics with pandas.
A cult is a religion with narcissistic traits . Just like this one , they control behavior, information, time and energy to the point you’re physically and emotionally exhausted
Well, props to him for actually doing it. Every elder that’s had the chance to speak with me ends up just running away and telling others to “be careful” around me because I’m not good association.
I relate with a lot of what he said because it's what I thought when pretty much from age 17-25.
But then my kid started to get older and I couldn't bring myself to indoctrinate him. I couldn't be a JW mom making her kid sit at the meeting or spanking him until he could sit. I couldn't deny him all the magic of childhood. I couldn't let him be scared by thinking God was listening to his thoughts and that he might die at Armageddon.
My son is so much better adjusted than I was as a kid because he can just be normal.
If you want to stay in, fine. But if you ever want to have kids, you may want to reconsider
THIS ^^^ i was born in and it ruined me in so many ways. i’ll never get to have a normal childhood.
I just want to tell this guy that if he wants to believe in God that's fine, but he really shouldn't be apart of an abusive narcissistic cult.
*a part.
'Apart' means the opposite of what you're trying to say.
@@k7450 thanks
You right! Too much blood on the leaders hands!
This was really interesting! I just want to add, that just because the witnesses may have helped people have a "better life", doesn't make the religion true 🤷♀️
Also joining JWs through choice as an adult is *completely* different to being born into the cult and spending your childhood and teenage years with forced on you during the most critical years of your development.
I think with the right parents, any religious community can have happy people in it. But JW makes you better? How would you know if you wouldn't have been better if you converted to Buddhism? Or like a hippie movement of peace and love absorbed you into their beliefs? If you're raised in it, and it's all you know, you wouldn't know if you felt even better being Jewish. If you have FUNDAMENTAL issues with the beliefs of JW, such as the disassociation thing, that's a problem, and sticking in a relationship with this church would only keep your family in, believing these things they're taught at childhood, and furthering the religion instead of changing it
Welcome Russell, thank you for being so brave! We hope your experience was positive.
I'll come up with a better handle at some point (as you know spur of the moment), but I appreciate being able to do this interview with you Jake. Perhaps in the future we can follow-up and ask me some of the harder hitting questions you might have. I like the graphic a lot. When you first told me that was what you were doing I envisioned a 1910 style picture - so that is a lot better. Cheers.
Hello Brother Russell. I'll see you in the back room... just kidding. I just wanted to point out that if the organization is teaching others actively to reject the emblems, and taking the emblems are part of how the Bible says we accept Jesus sacrifice on our behalf by entering into the new Covenant... then are you supporting an organization that is causing others to miss out on salvation by misleading them. If you are still donating to them, then you share in that. I woke up last year, and this and also being blood guilty about the blood issue are the main reasons I realized I could no longer support it despite being born in and putting in years of service. For the truth to be the truth it must be true.
Good of you to come on. Look forward to seeing the next one
We need help keeping this from becoming an ecochamber. Your participation is greatly appreciated. 😁
Absolutely man, it was a great chat! Come back on any time!
Fascinating stuff! Russell, you seem to be a lovely and caring man. I hope the move to MS won’t put unnecessary pressure on your want to make small changes for the better. JWs in your congregation are lucky to have someone with such a nuanced outlook and kind disposition.
This is fabulous! It was really interesting to listen to. I’d actually appreciate more chats with JWs because Russell seems like a cool dude. It’s a much needed reminder to some that most witnesses are actually pretty normal decent people, and I think conversations like these can facilitate growth for all involved. Nice to see someone who refuses to shun too, brings me comfort that at least not every exjw is treated that way by absolutely everyone they knew before df/da
I have the sneaking suspicion that A LOT of us tried to be "selective" with our ministry. I remember asking my Elder father how I was supposed to preach to people and bring them into an organization that had congregations like ours (tons of cliques, misogyny, ableism, favoritism, bullying, on and on). He didn't have an answer for me.
Unfortunately, as it stands, I personally feel like trying to change a system like this from the inside out requires an unrealistic level of optimism. Thinking about it, the Bible Students realized they just had to *leave* if they were going to survive as a group at all. For changes to occur, those making the decisions - those with the power - must want those changes to happen. For changes to occur, there would have to be a level of conscientiousness, compassion, understanding of nuance, desire for beneficial growth/change/progress and self-responsibility that just isn't present at the highest levels.
EDITED: Sorry for all the edits - I'm not great at getting all my thoughts out at once (or spelling them correctly).
Tre C, great comment, and I think you're right.
"Unrealistic level of optimism" that is a polite and hard hitting way to put it.
@Jdub NoMo
We re sold a story but living another..see rev 19:15.
Sheperding style void of softness..no assistance really..currently in play
Kept away from reality..the Hebrew slaves ( future lsraelites) fleeing oppression in Egypt under Pharoah were shielded by the pillar of fire and cloud..
Likewise today..the witnesses not able or allowed to peek at the apostate words held out as enemies together with disfellowshipped ones to be avoided at all costs..
Not only for the reasons one might immediately think...
Everything is told us within the bibles pages..
Just need to find it..
Search and you ll see..we ve had the pandemic in 2019, but see verse 17 & 18 of rev 19.
Written In symbolic language.
Human DNA overwritten by virus ..or CONSUMED our flesh.
Who made this virus round in shape ??
Many aren't..
They named it CROWN..in latin 🤔
I pretty much said the same thing. Agree with you on all your points. My dad was a virulent non-believer, my mom a sainted Pioneer. Life was hell.
Really nice guest, as are so many JWs. I really felt for him hearing the amount of mental gymnastics he goes through to justify things that are wrong with the organization, but feels that similar apologetics shouldn’t be applied to actual Christian denominations. The WTS had to actually make their own horribly mistranslated Bible to support their ever-changing doctrine. I really feel for this gentleman. The pro-WT bias is wired into your brain to the point that, even while having serious doubts about the org, doing “research” about JW doctrine, Christian theology, etc, will still result in your brain making excuses for the JW beliefs subconsciously. Confirmation bias. We’re all guilty of it. Once you can come at it with the mentality of “I am going to put a pause on holding anything JWs teach as being of value, and will objectively investigate”, you’re on your way. Once you realize that no biblical scholar familiar with church history and with competency in Bible translation would ever become, nor has ever become, a JW should speak volumes.
Great point!
Bingo. I studied w. Elaine Pagels and then did grad wk. They make nonsense arguments. Once I read a real Bible at an Ivy. But without college, I would not be so furious. But I am. He is using you! But a good try and idea.
I watched this today and while it was a great conversation, as a woman who left the organisation Russell represents perfectly the misogyny and power JW men have. Russell is obviously well read and intelligent, and handles his dissonance well. By default of being a male he has a voice and the ability and mechanisms to climb the Borg ladder to gain even more power. What if he does become an elder? He will then have even more power to step on the basic rights of women, children and single mums. The idea that he could change at that level from within bewilders me, as to be an elder you have already been fully indoctrinated, and on top of that you can demand double honour, it’s a recipe for abuse of others. These men (bodies of elders) with power work in packs and go for the jugular of anyone who dares to deviate from the group think. He talked about deciding whether you leave and lose everything or stay and try to change things. Surely just the thought of being on just one judicial committee where a female is quizzed inappropriately would make it not worth it. I encourage this open conversation but all I heard was another JW male seeking prominence. He also talked about Ray Franz having a golden opportunity, did he? They hunted him down and were not satisfied till they destroyed him, nothing has changed since then, he was the catalyst for the GB doubling down and trying to close every loophole, essentially landing where we are today where if you leave you must accept at the very least some loss, at the worst at your life imploding. Truth matters, my life imploded but the rebuild is worth every second of pain. The mere presence of ‘apostates’ and the content becoming mainstream does by far more good in raising awareness, inoculating people and offering a soft place to land for those brave enough to exit.
JC for swearing. And he's still in. Lol. That's insane. Thanks both of you . To each their own. I'll never submit to a man made org again.
If you were told to sheperd with an iron rod..you would be just the same
Rev 19:15
@@compositioncompilation could religious fanatics stop endlessly quoting the bible? You're not making any kind of point or argument by doing that, it's so empty.
I know 4 people personally that were df’d for talking to disfellowshipped people
My childhood was horrible being raised as a JW. I was terrified as a child about Armageddon. My own mother told me I was Spiritually weak from a very young age. I also new I was gay from the age of 7 or 8.. Knowing that I was what was being said to be abhorrent to Jehovah made my mental health an issue. I was tormented knowing that at some point if I came out that I would loose everything and everyone. So My experience in the organization was very negative, sad and depressing. I also think when we are going through the unpacking of the truth about the truth we try to rationalize the good over the bad. I came to the conclusion that the bad outweighed the good in almost every issue.
I'm sorry you didn't have the same perspective I did. Certainly, I can see where being gay would have added another overlay to the situation.
Exactly. In all ways the bad outweighed the good.
I'm wishing the best life away from the org.
I'm really sorry for what you went through. I want to say that even as a believer I remember having conversations where I would actually say I don't believe that something so natural to humans can be wrong. How can god punish a person for something they cannot change? I knew same sex attraction was part of who a person was. I now know it's very common among quite a lot of animals, too. I was an outspoken child, so I was told that it's wasn't any worse that heterosexual porneia. But of course that's no answer because they don't believe in gay marriage, if they did it would have been a reasonable answer
I was raised Catholic while gay and I was also terrified of going to hell for it.
Kudos to both of you for conducting an amicable conversation about beliefs and the JW organization. His motivation to persevere with his views until the group reforms its ways is commendable, but I don't have very high expectations that anything will happen, because of the group's stance on non-participation in any efforts to improve the society in which we live. However, stranger things have happened.
That was a really good caricature of CT Russell you used.
I also worry about it. That kind of thinking is in lots of very very dangerous groups or situations. There is usually only one result from it, and it's not that the group changes for the better...
Not knowing the way out..is no criticism of those who are trying..
But what scripture reveals is that no matter our efforts this system stands condemned..
From the perspective of the Almighty..seen @ Rev 19:15..
He has seen enough suffering and misery and deems total reconstruction as necessary..using only the things He sees as desirable to rebuild.
(Hag 2:7.)
Sifting soil to select the very best..to grow and prosper the present seedlings for the future..starting with the harvest in this system. ..
If we can be molded to become the best type of soil now by being modest walking with our God.
Shocking😮 At 7or 8 thking you,r gay.Children s ,t thk of sexual thg,s at that age.No way? If I was you I would question you,r mental state.Not JW,S Jesus was not Gay??? Seek help for you,r twisted brain,s thking.And repent of you,r sin,s.Gos destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their filth.Repent while you have time and seek God (Food F thght) 🤔
This is a really great conversation, Russell seems like a sincere person and it was nice to listen to someone who believes in god but isn’t obnoxious about it. He was respectful and open, and it was great to see two sides come together and have a civil conversation. Reminds me of those late night conversations with a friend where suddenly things get super deep. I’d totally be friends with Russell. Really great video Jake, this is awesome.
"Talking to no-one is strange, talking to a JW is stranger. A JW's faith's in danger if they think too much in this world."
Thank you for coming to speak with us Russel!
I'm not a JW at all but have a friend that's one and they can be very pretentious with me when it comes to our differing beliefs (and mind you I don't even try to debate or anything), so it's very refreshing to see someone like Russell who can just have a normal conversation about their beliefs without getting hostile and passive aggressive about it
Agree! I was a pompous, self righteous stick in the mud for many years, even after leaving JWs. I would say I had a tendency towards these traits however the organisation encouraged and heighten them. It has taken me many years to calm down, let go of perfectionism and stop offering my unsolicited opinion to people. I am a work in progress, but Russell is relaxed and I appreciate his and Jake’s discussion.
Not liking the way they ( Rev 11,s two witnesses..) preached John recorded was sufficient motive to seek to silence them .
Symbolising the two witnesses.. the role they play ..as assigned by the Almighty ..is not one that's pleasing ..as God tells them to strike earth with PLAGUES.
obviously that attracts negative press..causing hurt damage and death..not what we would expect of those Christ is with.
Yet more unexpected things occur as the sheep are treated roughly..
See rev 19:15.
Already had the birds feasting as our DNA has become consumed or overwritten by covid 19..we re told damaging our internal organs ,worldwide pandemic..see verse 17&18
Their, teaching of the Bible is horrendous,they distort the Bible to agree with their teaching.
Haha that hard shell of "I know The Truth and you are a dumb lizard beast" makes it hard to be with JW loved ones with any sincerity. The duality of how hopeless and depressed they are, while simultaneously thinking they're the only ones with Truth and Light and Love is.... Surreal.
@@Katie-dj4tr
An interesting twist..lve just recently come to realise....
The truths that will hold the most impact we should expect to come..not from the center of true worship..but from those classed as apostates..as Ezekiels temple vision reveals ..
The trickle is at the temple..the raging torrent that emptied into the Dead Sea us far far away from the temple where the GB place themselves !!
Fascinating..isnt it !
It's the apostates and ex JW,s that reveal..the GB PLACE THEMSELVES in THE TEMPLE.(In 1919.. ex witnesses and critical thinkers ..activists pose the question..which bible verses show that They were appointed to look after the domestics in 1919 ???!!)
As Jesus said to his opposers at times..
You yourselves are saying it !!
It suffices that this matter is hi lighted..
It needn't even be true !!
Prophecy is thereby fulfilled !!
By PLACING THEMSELVES IN THE TEMPLE ..they are candidates for the title of the ANTICHRIST a scriptural term l had always taken as being something NEGATIVE ..displeasing to God !!
The other title The Man of lawlessness can also sound a bad thing ..yet..
Of whom was it said
He was RECKONED WITH THE LAWLESS ?
CHRIST HIMSELF.. !!
Isa 54:17b
What matters Is Gods view of us..
See rev 11:6.
.
Plagues God directed Moses to strike Egypt with..perhaps there are some parallels worth considering.
Rev 15:3
.
The surge of additional information available online about witnesses and the leading members historically and currently..is part of fulfillment of prophecy !!
Rev 16 indicates the scorching heat..
Ulcers & Hailstones..causing one's to blaspheme..
The two witnesses do not blaspheme..
those who are hurt as a result of the plagues....DO.
Each of thee
Dude, there was nothing frustrating about watching this at all. This is probably the most fascinating JW-related conversation I've ever listened to.
I appreciate you and him both for having this conversation and putting it up for us to see.
It's not a religion its a real estate company selling lots of kingdom halls
The thing that seems to resonate with the JWs I've talked to is something I heard from an Ex Mormon: "good about the church is not unique to the church and everything unique to the church is not good."
This organization destroyed my life...not enough positive in the world. You don't need the structure they offer.
Great interview. You pushed back just enough on things you needed to. I prefer the conversational approach instead of spending an hour giving him the ol' razzle-dazzle.
He had a lot of great points I partially agree with. But I think it boils down to having a belief and being comfortable with what you got.
Appreciate that Russell had the security in what he believes to be able to talk about it openly. He's a rare breed.
Thank you for this video. For obvious and respectful reasons I will not make any comments here.
Feel free to comment, just no personal attacks on Russell
@@altworldly I wouldn't. It's just I see and understand too much. I have to learn to be less blunt. Which is why I like your delivery. Factual, fair, but firm where you need to be. :)
I felt the same way but couldn't hold back my thoughts so I put a disclaimer on my post that I'm saying this with love.
Please make more interviews like this! I think you are opening lots of doors possibilities and views! It nice to have open communication like this. Thank you Jake 🙏
I have to disagree, I am much happier outside of the organization. I am off the hamster wheel and can enjoy my life and not feel guilty
Credit where it's due to him for being brave enough to risk it and tell his side when most active JWs wouldn't. (I blame the insular nature of the organization, not the individual JWs for that). He says fundamental change to the organization is more doable from inside however, the moment you question anything, and don't conform, don't act the way a JW should, you're not in good-standing, or you are disciplined or you're disfellowshipped and shunned which they use to manipulate through fear. For change to happen from within the organization, it would probably take millions of JWs realizing the power in numbers and collectively protesting against the leadership.
Yes. How can you make positive change from within when you have to keep your mouth shut and appear to be conforming.
After having spoken to many JWs while distributing Christian gospel tracts, I was surprised at how many were transparent enough to share their doubts about their association with the JWs, but continued anyway. I can only surmise that it is because, and only because they would loose family and friends if they leave.
I have two minds about this. Russell seems like a very reasonable and open minded person, and it makes me hopeful for other jw’s I know, that maybe they are also thinking about things, but obviously won’t talk about it. On the other hand it’s so hard to see someone who’s brainwashed and doesn’t realize it, it’s exhausting.
And yet he has just enough critical thinking skills to convince himself he's found the healthy middle ground. It really is a long and tiring process.
Critical thinking skills helped me to analyse interpretation of the use of the word Iron in the bible.
Daniels dream image..:
Iron legs..
Iron mixed with clay
Iron rod for sheperding..
Fascinating insight...
Ex Catholic Ex JW still living, still reading the bible, still loving GOD and our King, the best life there is, for real. Just by my own, me and the family. Let God and Jesus guide you both we're ever you may go...
You seem desperate to hold onto a belief in a god. Maybe you'll try another religion one day, third time lucky.
Deep breaths. So when the meth dad relapses and elders who have no training in addiction disfellowship him… where is the structure and community then? Not with witnesses. Nope.
P.s. anyone needing some secular help with addiction try SMART recovery. Like AA but actually evidenced based and no religion.
AA is religious.
@@ingramwright5399 yep. Very. They deny it but they 100% are.
@@LOH__ Do they really deny it? The twelve step program bangs on about god the whole way through. How do they think people won't notice?
@@k7450 yeah. They say that your “higher power” doesn’t have to be a deity. It can be a tree or the stars. An elder friend of mine was very uncomfortable mixing Jehovah with it. It’s super awkward as a witness and as an atheist.
This was refreshing! It’s nice to see two people with different opinions have a open healthy conversation (especially this subject). This is a step in the right direction, this is progress!
So, so true… being able to have a civil conversation like this ( and even on different topics) is something that is SERIOUSLY missing in today’s world!!
The desire to be an agent for change from within is one I can relate to. Even had idealistic visions of being a CO or an upper level bethel member someday. At some point after the broadcasts began and the uptick of messaging about “listen” and “obey”, I began to realize the system itself is built to resist non conformity and change, and that any meaningful progress would be minuscule, decades away and Id be completely out numbered. I was still an MS when I read CoC and it confirmed for me what I had seen on elder bodies. Kinder elders (and former elders who couldn’t take it an stepped down) would confide in me about the dictator mentality of other elders.
You get to a point where you move into a new hall and are awaiting your recommendation letter, but within weeks, you can see who the “enforcer” Elders are and which Elders cower and fear them and which Elders are more “Christlike” but feel stifled. Sometimes you can catch them having little pissing matches through their comments in the WT study. You stroke the egos of the enforcers, make sure you know what some of their pet issues are so you don’t run a fowl of them and cross your fingers that you get reappointed at the next COs visit.
The whole thing just became such a clown show to me over time. I hope he makes MS, he will learn so much from that experience.
I’ll just add, that all of these kinder elders had been on JCs and voted against DFing, been outnumbered and seen as too soft and had their own “Crisis of Conscience” over it as a result.
I have come to learn it is ruled by the kabal. They infilitrate all major institutions
I actually think Russel being a 33 degree mason is why the org is what it is.
I felt the same way when I was still a JW. I wanted to help reform things and make the religion a better healthier place, and I really felt I had Jehovah's backing. But it eventually all came crumbling. It's impossible to change things because it's to its very core this organization is a high control group based on the complete obedience to a select few. There's no way for individual members, no matter how many there are, to successfully make a change, because as soon as they are found out, they will suffer the consequences and things are always twisted to show that it's their fault and that the governing body can never be wrong. I wish it were possible, but it's not. We just need to accept the truth, no matter how much it hurts.
😢 I’m currently inactive, but I still have hope.. I started attending church & it seems like a kinder atmosphere, but I can’t believe the trinity doctrine 😅 Jehovah’s witnesses (at the moment) seem to be one of the only groups praising Jehovah in my locality. There are some assemblies of yahweh groups but too far from me.
there is a way to successfully make a change: leaving in droves. But it seems that although there was a drop around 2020 - 2021, the organisation is growing again. I don't "see" this "leaving in droves" thing all these apostates are talking about.
Fantastic and respectful video. It is so good to get russell’s honest perspective. I’d love to see a sequel
I was raised in a cult sect of Christianity. As an adult, my parents tried very hard to effect change from within, but after years of beating their heads against the proverbial wall, they came to the inevitable conclusion that the church didn't want to change. They left shortly after i did.
I understand Russell, for truely believing that it's a net positive, and that he appreciates the JW upbringing. When you're still in, and even when you're fresh out, you have to believe that it was good for something. You have to justify it, and convince yourself that it was something valuble.
I used to appreciate that I was raised in the orginization. It made me a good, decent person, that tries to help people when I can. But it's not because of JW's. Those are the things I decided to hold on to. Those are the things I decided to keep. The ways it fucked me up, far outweigh the good I got from it. And I'm sure I could've still been taught honesty and right from wrong, without also being made to isolate myself from 'worldly' people, as a child; for having this guilt and shame for the terrible crime of making friends with decent kids at school.
The worst thing about being a JW, is just how much of your life they demand from you; how much of your life, they force you to miss out on. I have no significant memories from high school, because I didn't participate in anything. But I looking back on the same time period, I don't have any cherished memories in field service, or at the meetings, it was just as hollow and unfulfilled.
To point that disfellowshipped ppl don't have a strong relationship with God/Jehovah when they are told to leave - Many of us who are Dis'd treasured our relationship with God and voluntarily went to the elders for an arbitrary & traumatic judicial committee.
That’s the part that sucks 😢❤️
I think this is a really good forum to allow JW's to have an outlet for their doubts and talk freely without judgement. If it helps even one person escape and gain freedom. It is so worthwhile. Thank you for what you are doing.
Hey Jake! Ex Mormon here. Just recently found your channel and the similarities between JW and LDS is kinda crazy. Love your content, keep it up!
Jake, I appreciate your patience and approach. This was extremely interesting to watch and very frustrating. I believe he stays because his life is good and he doesn't want to lose it. He has talked himself into how to do that and not feel like a hypocrite. The fact that he came on anonymously shows the organization is very flawed. One point that struck me very hard was that the organization is good for lower income people because it gives them a group. Lower income people with limited means are easy to control and frighten. Religions and governments have been doing it for centuries. Keep doing what you do.
Actually when was a JW, I felt that I was severely limited by the people I could associate with. Mostly uninspired few in number. Since I’ve broken out , and liberated myself, I have a sea of interesting intelligent people surrounding me. What a relief that was! Why not just shun the former congregation? If they shun you, just shun them back!
We faded and shunned them back!!👌
I give him a maximum of 5 years before he fades, DFs, or otherwise defects. There's too much cynicism and Bart Ehrman here to keep him in...
I appreciate this conversation so much you two!! Thank you for this! I studied with JW’s regularly for 3 years and loved it. I loved the friends I made, I loved the congregation I went to, I loved my studies, and there was quite a lot about the teachings that I loved and it honestly saved my life at that point. However, there were still a few things holding me back that prevented me from pursuing it further. I haven’t yet met a JW I didn’t like. There are many things I still follow to this day, but I have felt the necessity of taking my spiritual education into my own hands. I think that we just have to remember that when it comes to putting our spirituality in the hands of others or an organization, that they are in fact JUST people. And I think there’s something in the New Testament that warns us about doing that (lol I may be wrong- but I’m pretty sure lol). But I think it’s an important journey of the self to focus on the internal relationship of the self and the creator.
To conclude, I think this whole video is great. Thank you both so much for sharing! Much love to both of you!
Oh Gawd 🙄 seconds in and already he’s calling himself “exemplary” 🤮 Sounds like this cult is PERFECT for him. It appears not everyone are meant to wake up. Bless his heart.
Jake all the while was humble, respectful and compassionate. I look forward to more of this content‼️
I agree with your summation at the end. His reasoning could be applied to any church, "well, I can see how this thing/belief, whatever it is, isn't correct, but if I stay, I can help to change it." Also, the trinity seems to also be a major sticking point for why jws feel so compelled to remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses. There are several groups that don't believe in the trinity, so why stick with jws? I think it boils down to pride, they believe the religion is "the truth" even if it's riddled with lies and cannot admit it may not be the truth, that there may not be a singular truth. Personally, like you, I can't live a hypocritical life.
I applaud the conversation and the attempt. I just can’t get behind behind “being kind” to people who by no means would show that kind of attitude to someone who isn’t one of them. They exclude, judge and if you try to leave amicably, they do everything to ruin lives. They honestly aren’t deserving of kindness. But that’s just me…, I’m glad you were able to restrain yourself man, I absolutely wouldn’t have been able to
He demonstrably is being kind to someone who isn’t one of them, though. He was nice to me lol
@@altworldly I suppose in the exchange he was, but my point is as a group, if he believes in the theology, which it sounds like he does, he inherently believes that if you don’t believe what he does, you are worthy of destruction. There really is no getting around that. He’s obviously more reasonable than most, but being honest, he’s not really being a “true” JW by doing that. Being an à la carte JW would sure make things easier, but the fact is as an organization, you aren’t allowed that flexibility. Like I said earlier though, I do respect your conversation and everything you do on the channel! I think you are doing great work Jake!
@@dantheman9936 I try and separate out the "theology" and "doctrines" vs the petty rules that men seem to scheme up to apply to those they want to dominate. Jesus stayed part of the Jewish community and separated fundamental teachings and beliefs in his Father vs what the pharisees tried to enforce that went well beyond scripture and the law. Remember too, not all the pharisees were like this - some actually spoke against and acted against their peers. If you were a Jew in Jesus' time you might also suggest he wasn't a "true" Jew by the same parameters.
@@incognito_JW I do understand what you are saying and while it isn’t wrong per say, it’s ultimately not what matters in my opinion. Knowing things are wrong and marching to the beat of your own drum is great, but you seem to be downplaying the weight of who you affiliate yourself with. When you identify as a JW, that comes with a lot of weight and baggage. You not agreeing with the governing body or feeling like rules need to change has nothing to do with latching on to the name/organization of JW’s. To use an example, you can’t say “The confederate flag doesn’t mean to me what it means to others”. If you fly that flag, figuratively speaking, you co-sign it, period. I commend your way of thinking, I really do, but without intending to sound disrespectful, you seem to have a fairy tale version of what being a JW means and what that organization is guilty of.
@@dantheman9936 This is and has been my point of view about JWs! Of all of the religious ppl I’ve come across, the JWs were the most self loathing, disrespectful, and down right mean group of so called “True Christians” I’ve ever had the miss pleasure of meeting. Not to mention JWs do absolutely NOTHING to help out the community and have so much to say about the religious groups that actually help their communities.
When it comes to making changes slowly from the inside; the problem with that is that Watchtower is a regime run by a dictatorship. You would need something like a revolution to make changes.
Ironic that he hides behind a sketch of CT Russell .
Russell's theology was far more liberal than , that of WT today , which has very little if anything in common with the original Bible Student movement , who still exist .
One thing sadly lacking with JWs ,is they don't have a deep inner , personal relationship with God and Christ , instead they have a relationship with an organisation .
That botched judicial hearing alone would've told me that the organization in no way has the market cornered on God's spirit and blessing. Haha
Jesus Christ perfect conversation!! Great oponions, both, hope the people learned a lot. Thanks Jake for the diferent vídeo aproach. All hearts are diferent budy, but you two guys are good hearted men, thanks also Russel...take care J🤠👏👏👏👏
The problem is how they have changed their bible to fit their doctrine. In some places they have changed it SO much that they have changed the meaning. God gave us the Bible and they changed it.
This guy has delusions of grandeur, one day in the future he'll make an excellent governing body member.
The fact that this Witness was willing to debate an ex-JW, means mind-wise, he’s already part out -The Watchtower is a high control religion/publishing company. Russell would be punished just for speaking to a former member if caught. Although not a sin, within the bounds of the organization his actions would be called a sin. Forbidden, verboten.
I really enjoyed this conversation! I know you didn't really push on issues this time but it was super interesting getting to hear Russel's perspective. If more people like him were in charge at Watchtower then maybe things would get better. Unfortunately I don't see that happening, but I really appreciated his perspective.
Whoever this guy is… he communicates really really well. Nicely done.
He went to formal college and it showed. He us an Architect.
great interview. born and raised a jw. my sister is a catholic, my brother is a buddhist, and I'm a pantheist. we did not go the hardcore atheist route.
What's a hardcore atheist? I've never heard an atheist describe themselves as hardcore before?
I haven’t had time to finish this yet but I’ve really enjoyed what I’ve heard so far. Thanks so much to Russell for coming on; would love to see this kind of dialogue between witnesses and non-witnesses more often. Great work Jake. :^)
I think it's really cool that Russell is willing to talk to us. Fantastic.
Ray Franz said Jaracz was the personality who decided most things. He ultimately outlived Ray, if I recall. I don't think Ray ever would have made much headway.
Very good point!
I'd like to know if you could cite where it describes him that way - i'd like to know if I"m wrong about that since I got the impression Henschel and Schroeder where the dominate ones. Regardless, when Franz came on in 1971 he was the youngest and the time - Jaracz came on after Franz, and so my point was Franz would have had seniority at some point....and just like the fact that Jaracz eventually was "the guy" for so long everyone pointed to. Franz could have been that, and apparent due to being related to Fred. At the end of the day it would be how determined Franz was... i get the sense most GB members are followers of the group thought. Get 2-4 on your side and you own the room...just like most elder bodies.
Interesting point. I think you leave because your backed into a corner and you have to at that point.
Wow, this is a crazy and interesting conversation!
"If enough people stayed in place and changed their mindset, your gonna fix the organization at some point" A large factor in getting any organization to change its approach is to vote with your feet. If people are leaving because of the organizations policies then the leadership must adapt or face elimination. This would work for like a company for example, because the company is subject to outside selective forces in the marketplace and staying in and improving the company helps it compete better. I don't think the same incentive structure can work for Jehovahs Witnesses becuase it is on the other side of a crossroads that happened back in 2010. The start of the internet age. The crossroads is essentially do you focus on making your religion appealing to people who are not already in it by adapting to the ideas that have risen to the top in a much more interconnected marketplace of ideas, the creme of a powerful selection process. Or do you use cult mind control to hold tighter and tighter on to your existing members and make the religion an all encompasing culture that makes each member closed minded so they aren't persuaded by better more true conclusions of the larger deliberative body of the rest of the species? They clearly chose the latter and can only continue along that path forever. I don't see any mechanism whereby they can escape the feedback loops that make the cult mind control pattern a stable condition that has persisted in many other groups of people for literal millenia.
If people are leaving for opposite reasons however, this does not exert pressure to change since a move to either direction would not change the number of people leaving. Stuff like one person leaves becuase they are too strict and another leaves because someone in power brushed something off that they thought someone should have been punished for. On balance there is no way to improve.
Such an excellently worded comment. Thank you!!
I have been inclined to think that Christianity itself would've dissolved long ago if not for ecclesiastical authority, literally forcing conformity. I think if the GB lightened up on their authority the entire organisation would lose its cohesion and break up.
@@Rupunzelsawake Perhaps, catholacism doesn't seem to be hurting much and there are millions of lukewarm catholics in name only. What keeps it alive seems to be the profundity of ritual and retained historical wealth.
@@alexanderx33Mmmm..yeah..maybe. I don't know how much the Catholic church is hurting but it is. Financially, CSA scandals and payouts....and it's had difficulty for as long as I can remember in recruiting to the priesthood and to convents. It remains to be seen how influential the pope will be on the world stage in years to come as the percentage of non practicing/non contributing Catholics increases. I guess it helps that Vatican City is its own country! Lol. Some would argue that those Catholics in name only are not really Catholic and not really Christian, anyway, dont you think?
Bet you this guy starts an apostate CZcams channel within a year.
Oh the politics in this cult.
Indeed 💯😮💨
The mental gymnastics that russel is doing is extreme.
Nice interview. Still can’t convince me being in is what will influence change. I think the masses leaving is what will ultimately force change in the organization.
The Office clip about unshunning was perfectly placed
Your comment caused an image of Dwight Schrute in my head. 😂
Just started the video.
This was a good conversation between 2 adults about Jehovah's Witness .
REALLY agree with the cut in you made Jake about how they 'model' Jehovah. This was the root of my biggest issue. The create God and define him, in order to enact control, rather that just let the bible/Jesus explain who he is. I agree that this is one big reason exJws go to the atheist route. I can totally understand why they feel God is defined as the horrible God defined by JWs and therefore lose faith in Him.
If I may say, as someone who believes in God, I think the Bible makes him seem horrible & it slanders him.
For talking to DF’d ones, “Russell” would be lead to another Judicial.
I have a comment for “future Jake”…
I wasn’t raised JW and I honestly have only interacted with them once when I was 17 and mysteriously got blacklisted. I was a very well versed Catholic at the time.
Nevertheless, following my entire faith journey that took me through several denominations and lastly into atheism, I keep being told that I never seriously believed and never inquired well enough. When I was 17, I was well known in my congregation because I was a regular around the altar, especially when reading, and I taught confirmation classes. Regardless of everything I ever did, which was always quite intense, I am still confronted by people who claim I didn’t do it right. In their mind, if I had done it right, I wouldn’t have left.
If I had done it right and they are doing it right, they may have to admit that they could technically also wind up leaving one day and that thought is unthinkable.
Russel seems to be halfway out the door , anyway .
I'm fascinated by anyone who remains a JW after reading, for example, The Gentile Times Reconsidered. The reader must know that if 607 BCE is false, then 1914 is false. That means that God's Kingdom wasn't established in 1914, war in heaven didn't break out, Satan wasn't cast down to the earth, and we're not in the last days. If 1914 is false, then so is 1919 when Jesus is supposed to have chosen the Watchtower leadership to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, namely Mr Joseph Rutherford et al. How can one, knowing this, go out on the ministry a preach such balderdash? Anyone not on the Governing Body who wants to make changes from within, is doomed to be removed as an apostate
In my family in Texas I was surrounded with JWs...on my real father's side...on my mother's side...on my stepfather side...I was a regular pioneer for ten years...went to Bethel (to visit)...in a meeting with a DISTRICT overseer...he said something astonishing to all of us...he said "This may not be the most perfect organization on earth, but, it's the closest we got "...I still LOVE the organization and living in New Mexico I understand the fanaticism of JW in certain sections...not just JWs but religious factors throughout .
.I LOVE your program!
And this is why I always remind myself that we must always continue to differentiate between organization and members. Definitely members like Russell with nuanced views and ambitions for growth and change within the organization they choose to remain apart of are our allies, not our enemies. We can work toward similar goals while having different methods and even different beliefs. Thanks for coming on Russell, I’m sure it could’ve been a daunting idea, so I hope most of us proved to be not a hostile crowd. Also great job on the interview Jake! Nicely done man!!
Wow, this is quite a scoop
Thanks for this unique video Jake!
This was a very enjoyable conversation to listen to. Appreciate the calm and nuanced nature you guys both kept to.
He couldn't stay bc the policies were ruining life even death was involved. He was an honest man.
Definitely do this again!!!!!!!
The JWs are led by apostste anointed. They’ve gone against Jesus who said “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks” (John 4:24). Not only does WT not have truth (John 14:6), but they have set up an idol religious organization, a physical form of worship that God does not endorse. “48“However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’” (Acts 7). The WT does not represent God. Why stay? They are a false prophet (Deut.18:20-22).
Fuck the god of the Bible. Fucking murderer. I'm sure you're nice though🙂
Well said.
Once I realized in my heart the Borg is a false religion for many reasons, it would be selfish and blatantly disgraceful to God if I stayed. As Christians, it is our direction from Christ to not just “go along” with a religion because its “better than nothing”… or “its the most true one”.
Jesus our savior is The perfect example of this.
Ironically, it sounds like you need a psychologist.
I noticed Russell mentioned "Get out of her" (Rev 18:4 I think) . I wonder what he thinks that means and why it doesn't apply to the jw org, now that he's discovered so much wrong with the org and is aware of all its "acts of injustice."
@@serafin1352 Could you show me one piece of evidence, external to the bible, that Jesus was divine? Just one. I'm genuinely wanting to believe but can't without evidence and a loving god wouldn't expect people to either as that wouldn't be illogical, so there must be actual evidence somewhere.
This is so Bad Ass! The JW was so cool. This needs to happen more. Thank both of y'all!
I am SO happy that you had the chance of talking to an active JW here. And and I thank Russell for contributing. You both were honest. I do have a question though about a Scientologist who was almost ( about 6 years away) from being at the top who could have made a difference.
So the scientologist COULD HAVE STAYED in order to attempt to make changes. He was in the right position to do so.
I believe a big problem is the fact that much of what the JWs teach may be truth, but principally important things are very wrong and people have trouble differentiating between truth and error.
On my JC for Porneia, the three new Elders could not decide. One said df, one said no and the third couldn't decide.
Long story short, after six months my Elder dad wrote to the Branch asking advice.
The Branch said it was not their practice to make a decision but to consider that if I had been a good JW for the past six months, with witnessing Etc Etc. then that should demonstrate my repentance and not knowing if I would be dfd for the past six months or not could be considered discipline enough.
This whole thing was the beginning of the end for me. Loving shepherds? Hardly. And I was the one that was supposed to be forgiving of them even though they never apologised or acknowledged anything was wrong.
I had to realise..why theres no apology@ rev 11:5&6...it a matter of
WHO authorises the two witnesses ..to strike earth with PLAGUES.
I remember talks back in the 70's that Jehovah will vomit you out of his mouth because you were not "refreshingly cold" or "stimulantingly hot", Jehovah will vomit you out of his mouth... Rev. 3:16 ...I considered myself lukewarm and that scripture didn't sit right with me... 🥀
Yea me too...and I thought what was the point of staying of i was to be vomited out.
@@iyesis : Also, it didn't take much for me to get "marked" in the congregation. What did it take❓...depression, few if any hours in field service, and wearing a rockstar tee shirt (The Who)...I actually couldn't figure out why ANY of my "friends" couldn't even go out for a cup of coffee... What I was told was, "Jehovah's people were happy people" and was shown scriptures to prove it... When I went to another Congregation, (one of my "friends" who happened to have transferred there) started telling people that I was from his former congregation and had been marked... One of the brothers he told, said, "Don't worry about it, I'll take care of it"... We've been very happily married now for 40 years ...💖
Lord give Jehovah some phenergan 😂
Willing to bet that this dude is gonna be a future Apostate...
He claims he isn't a PIMO, but he is heading in the right direction
He's going to be back before a committee for a serious lil chat within the next couple of years. He's not gonna change jack. At least he knows who to call once he's bounced the next time.
I love this
Good job with this interview & going through with it. I'm sure it took some courage & tactfulness, thanks to all the years of the Organization's theocratic training😅😉
This was a great conversation. Civil and willing to listen. I wonder that ex-JWs need a new term PIMA (physically in mentally ambiguous). Hope you can talk with Russell again. He's articulate and is open to different ideas without just rejecting them out of hand. I do sense a certain level of both the sunk cost fallacy and Pascal's Wager, however.
Idk why I never thought about there being an ex-JW community, but I recently discovered the ex-JW side of CZcams by happy accident, and have been making my way through different channels the past few weeks. Yours is one I really enjoy because I can relate to a lot of your experiences. (Apologies for the following info dump; I have no chill.)
I don't have a disease as destructive as yours, but I was a sickly, raised-in child who spent hours and days at a time simply praying for Paradise so I could have a perfect, healthy body. Even now when my JW dad squeezes personal information from me, he replies with some form of "the new system will be here any day." Like it will comfort me more than my surgery or whatever lol. (This is the body i have, omg, please just accept it. I've done a lot of personal work to do so myself. It's almost crazy to think now about how I was allowed to donate my own blood for my back surgery at 17, but I was in existential dread for weeks about whether it would be enough, trying to squeeze a lifetime into those weeks. Because even then I was still conditioned to believe it was The Truth, despite the imperfection and hypocrisy of the organization. Because I still didn't know about how the watchtower was created. 😱)
I enjoyed listening to this interview. Especially the part that you didn't actually get to explore about ex-JWs and their religious beliefs, because it made me think back on my own journey of examining my faith and beliefs, and how I ended up landing on agnostic atheist with pagan interests. I technically left the organization when I was 14 (I'm almost 41 now), but I struggled for years after about what my actual beliefs were, because it was the hypocrisy of the organization and not its belief system that made me pull away (dad was an abusive alcoholic former elder who never got counseled; mom "committed adultery" to get a divorce. Mom was DFed. All her friends turned against her and LIED IN COURT to help my dad get custody. Dad was given full religious rights, until at 14 I had the legal right to choose my custodial parent.)
I was able to do a lot of my discovery journey during my teens and 20s without anyone really knowing because of my family situation. And my journey had many paths that converged-- I did a correspondence course for high school and had to do the evolution and psychology units--I told my dad that I just made up my answers according to what the teachers would want as an answer, but in truth it made me think about how we can trust science for things like the makeup of things and carbon dating, and how the brain works. It kind of helped me understand my own trauma, but also why my MOM was the way she was. My dad always derided my favorite aunt for disassociating as a teen and becoming a witch, and would call me a witch when I would question things as a child, so I became determined to learn about wicca and pagan faiths despite my fear of inviting demons. This led to learning about many different theologies and mythologies with similar stories to the Christian ones. Whether JWs believe in or celebrate Christmas and Easter, for example, is immaterial when their teachings about Christ's return also similarly parallel the pagan festivals about the sun/son being reborn into the world! Only, for JWs and other doomsday Christians, it's about the world ending and either going to Heaven or being given eternal paradise; whereas in pastoral rituals it's more like "hey don't worry, the sun will be back and things will grow again. We do this every year. The sun/son dies but he is reborn. This is the cycle of life."
Also I became really interested in yoga and vegetarianism through learning both about eastern religions and becoming obsessed with the Beatles at 13. Found out through practice that regular low impact yoga improved my health (scoliosis and digestive issues). Studied a lot of history through reading biographies, and really started to think about all the times in human history that the circumstances would've fit the "prophecies." Later, this interest in history got me into podcasts, and I started listening to a series on cults. A couple of the episodes were about well known wiccan and pagan cult leaders who are revered in most of the magic books I read, and this again made me think about all the belief systems I knew about and the similarities of how they sprang up around people who found validation in having followers, and how the structures adapted to its leader's desires over time. Often they start with a handful of people trying to live like their leader says life should be lived, and it gets progressively controlling over time until they are suffering from groupthink through behavior control.
I ended up feeling that any organized religion-- even faiths as unorganized as Wicca-- was ruined by the fact that it was created by humans that became increasingly controlling as their following became entrenched. That every "belief system" seems to start with a small cult following that believes the most outrageous claims about supernatural events that cannot be proven.
In a lot of ways, I still follow Jesus's teachings on how to treat people. I just don't believe the claims about him were 100% true. (And I think of my life philosophy more in the wiccan rede way: if it harm none, do what you will.) I don't think I need a religion to be a good person, and I don't believe the bible is inspired of God. I think it's a collection of stories passed down to explain cultural histories and parables about how to live. But I also think.. uh, Jesus doesn't sound that different from the stories of many cult leaders or influencers today. There are many stories of people who thought they were chosen by god or messengers of god, that JWs don't believe and eschew as lies of the devil or demonic posession, and I can't help thinking "okay, why doesn't that apply to jesus? There are plenty of people that get "healed" by faith healers, and JWs don't believe in that, but then how do we know that Jesus actually healed anyone? Or walked on water? Because his APOSTLES said so 2000 years ago? Lol..."
In many ways, I think of King Arthur and Jesus in the same way. I've read scholarly and anthropological discourse on whether the stories of King Arthur were based on a real pre-Saxon king (or maybe a FEW kings), the stories of whom became folktales and then legends. To me, this seems a reasonable assumption to make about the bible stories as well.
And recently, I'd gotten into watching anti-multilevel marketing CZcams, and had been thinking about how the structures of those remind me a lot of JWs as well. (Particularly interesting to me, because I often think about how, instead of drugs, organized religion has been my mom's coping mechanism for her trauma, and she also has a MLM habit.) In fact, watching those videos is how my algorithm got me over to ex-JW-tube lol. And now it is apparently a hyperfixation. (I want to write bisexual awakening Jade/Neeta fanfic lol. Wtf.)
I’d actually have clicked on this video more quickly if the title had been “A Conversation with an Active Jehovah’s Witness.” Regardless, interesting vid. :)
This is EXCELLENT video - informational and thought provoking. JW should encourage MORE of this, not attempt to discourage an open discussion such as this. AWESOME job.
I had four at my judicial in 2018. Saving you from the long story, they made their decision before I even met with them the final time.
They were infuriated I used their nwt and witness back to them, That I argued my case, That I called them out for being obviously biased. Not to mention, certain others in the congregation did some df type things and were allowed to slide by with a slap on the hand. Etc.
….Same area I have observed df’s due to speaking with so called apostates. In the 90’s there was a congregation shakedown about it.
In addition listening to the last portion. Yes the need for an org is huge for some. But honestly it translates to fear, because the answers regarding the need for an organization like watchtower or not come sometimes after you leave. And reading different translations of scripture helps a lot to understand how watchtower has used the Bible to validate their existence.
Bet my balls that his elders gave him a talking/scolding about this afterwards.