Electrical Fault Finding In A Shopping Centre
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- čas přidán 17. 07. 2024
- In this episode I'm carrying out fault finding at a kiosk in Lakeside shopping centre.
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0:00 In this episode
0:34 Initial inspection of the fault
1:36 Explaining the circuit issue to the customer
3:20 Summary of whats been going on
4:30 Changing sockets
4:50 On-site sparky shows up
6:30 Looking at the mains
9:10 My views on what the on-site spark said
12:10 Upside down RCBO?
13:00 Replacing back box lug
13:40 Investigating the upside-down RCBO
14:50 Problem diagnosed?
17:00 Testing new sockets
18:00 Whats causing the tripping?
20:24 The content we missed explained
The jobsworth was a real prat. I liked the way you disarmed him delroy, top job👍🏼
We've all met them! Probably spend their whole lives on the edge of a breakdown/heart attack... I feel sorry for them
TBH... it must be soul destroying being a captive sparky in a place like that. Sat in a windowless box somewhere waiting for the next tripped fuse or blown plug top!
Shows a real lack of ambition if they stay more than a week in that job. Plus to call that poorly installed supply 'an outside socket' only further highlights their lack of knowledge/understanding of electrical installations. Using SY cable to supply a 32A outlet over god knows how long a run is ludicrous and then to hang a sub board off it with again an unknown heavy load is crazy. No wonder they wanted such a high public liability insurance.... place is a ticking time bomb!
@@BoB4jjjjs As you say, the "guy" knew there was a high load being drawn over that underrated supply plus he asserted he was an electrician... yes.
Well in that case he's knowingly allowing a dangerous installation to remain in use, in a very public area accessible to all and sundry who would be totally unaware of any dangers this installation might cause to them let alone trained to recognise existing or future ones. Yes?
So, if as this 'guy' let's slip he knows of past and present ongoing issues relating to this circuit being overloaded, badly installed, problematic etc... he not only has a duty of care to test it and either disconnect or condem it but he's also on camera admited his knowledge and failings.
But until someone is serious injured or worse... it's OK to carry on. Right
@@Sparks1Plumbers0 he sounds like he’s highlighted it on many occasions & is ignored by the the operator of this coffee unit. “Lakeside”provide a power source for the operator to connect to - with a known current supply & no more. It’s the operators responsibility he doesn’t exceed / overload the capacity & has measures in place to provide protection before he links to their supply.
I think the bloke was alright tbh
& is probably right - I posted my own comment
Very patronising, he was.
What a lovely guy you had to deal with! Well done for not snapping at him! I don’t think I’d be as nice as you Del🤦♂️
He helped him out and told him about the circuit breakers being the wrong way but he was very clear that he could not leave the power board open.He also said he would come back whenever he wanted him to, if your employer sets strict guidelines for access to main power boards abiding by them does not make you a prat.
@@johnsmith9161 Was talking to him like a knob to begin with - sounds like they have a lot of trouble from the kiosk though, so maybe warranted.
Thanks for watching I try my best
He sounded arsey but I suspect he's had to deal with other engineers who've been arsey to him so he's gone on the full defensive. But you can hear him slowly warning and realising "Oh this guy isn't an arse like the others I've had to deal with".
@@johnsmith9161it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it
Sounds like you found more resistance in talking to the centres electrician than you would in that consumer unit if it had unscrewed connections.
Unfortunatley there is a lot of competition between maintenance companies not only in power supply
@@silver_surfer88 Yeah it's always awarded to the company with the lowest bid.
Unfortunately it doesn't just effect electricians, but every aspect of our daily lives this day and age.
Hi Christopher. Thanks for watching 🤣🤣
I doubt that they are actually electricians, more or less basic building managers that make tradies lives more difficult.
I worked on this shopping centre doing a shop refit on Warren James. We had the same bloke and they wouldn't let us use any power tools?! He was so very rude and always thought he knew best. Good work here though Delroy, keep it up
Personally I'd just walk off a job like that, BTDTGTTS but life's to short to deal with that crap now.
Hi Morgan. Thanks for watching, you come up against some difficult people sometimes. I try to deal with it the best I can.
17:57 now, that's important stuff. You should _always_ ask the clients for their perception of what's going on, as that can be a huge time saver when trying to pinpoint a cause. Remember to always take what they say with a grain of salt, though, as they might not have the same technical background as yours, and sticking up _too much_ to their perception can send you chasing many red herrings.
Congratulations, mate! You handled the whole situation like a pro. Cheers!
Hi Matheus. you made some valid comments thanks for watching.
You are right del, those rcbo’s are for the 3 phase boards, I actually went to a job, whilst carrying out a EICR, I noticed the mcb was connected upside down, found out the landlord who attended some evening coarse, thought he was competent, lol
Hi Raj. Thanks for watching.
job like this i would be waking out with no hesitation, the other lad did sound if he owns the place
That bloke even annoyed me sounding like his his the man because he rolls round a shopping centre with a bunch of keys the jobs worth. He come across arrogant and obnoxious
Del you are correct 10k for industrial boards 6k are used on domestic usually. Good man keeping your cool with that guy he could have been more helpful after all we are in the same trade.
Hi Sparky. thanks for watching.
He did have a point about not leaving it open as you could take out all the shops and then he'd be the one that would get moaned at. Years ago we let the APC guy into the server room alone to replace or test the batteries. Despite being told he flicked the main breaker for the room and all the servers turned off instantly.
"you shouldn't be using that phone mate"
"Well, how did I know it was here unless I was told to use it?"
Hi Del. I predominantly work in temporary electrical installs. In commercial premises, you can risk-assess sockets so as to omit RCD protection, as per the regs. The best solution in my eyes is a variable RCD / ELR. This means that you can quickly change the settings. If you have a single 32A load as a final circuit, you can turn it to 30mA instantaneous. Or in this case, set it at 100mA / 100ms or 300mA / 300ms. All at the press of a few buttons, or by turning a dial.
Very interesting, really good explanation at the end.
Thanks Delroy--what a tangle-but you got it sorted, and dealt with all the people involved with the patience of a Saint--unfortunately there are “jobsworths” in all walks of life
Hi David. Thanks for watching.
Good way of dealing with it Del. Calm and courteous. Brings back headache memories for me. A lot of electrical work can be a headache. People don’t realise it.
& this was just a defective plug in unit - piece of cake this job
Hi Paul. Thanks for watching some jobs are an headache.
They are used in commercial boards Des.
When you mount the breakers on a horizontal like you said. 👍🏽
Always an interesting watch Del.
Maintenance spark is a KNOB END lol
I have no knowledge on electricy or interest in, but i am glad CZcams provided this video on my main page as its totally interesting and fun to watch. Thanks for the content and keep up the great personality.
Hi Stivven. Thanks for watching.
You are a gentleman and so nice, to even a difficult mall electrician. With these mixed ON/OFF type RCBO's. the electrician gets confused, imagine a non-electrical staff member in this shop, who expect all the switches to be in the same position for ON or OFF. Good video. Those double RCD / RCBO set ups are a pain in the bud. Great talk about the RCD discrimination which is spot on. You can't have two in series with the same trip leakage currents.
You can always find those no nothing electricians working in those malls.That set up you will always have the odd trip and you always got to call some useless person .I agree with a previous comment try and find a 10mA rcbo at Kiosk end therefore any earth leakage will disconnect at Kiosk
Keep up the good work Del
I love these videos, especially the way you tell stories; As a person who writes code it feels like home.
Thanks for watching. What does "writes code" mean?
I learnt so much watching this for the 1st time, I subscribed :)
Well done you and being polite as always. Never let them get to you. I like your explanation. Keep it up!😊 👌
Great stuff Delroy, my the funny business going on in Lakeside's leccy!
Funny how people just make life more difficult - you come across a really genuine guy
Good video, the electrician mentioned it in your video that the fuse board was fed from the ceeform socket you had miss heard him,,you should have changed the actual sockets to RCD socket that would stop it from tripping upstream at the main board 👍🏽
This was a great suggestion from CZcams (for once), this isn't in my interest field but was interesting to watch. New subscriber.
Well done del you handled that fool well, you have to humour these idiots and make fun of them rather than want to strangle them, your spot on with your answer to why the rcds are upside down, schneider domestic board and Schneider breakers for 3 phase boards.
Hi Adi. Thanks for watching.
Your right Delroy the main issue other than the faulty motorized shaker/stirrer is the bigger selective coordination issue ( what you called discrimination) a time delayed RCD at the main board with a higher rating and trip current curves that don’t overlap in the range of loads used by that boba stall main RCD. It’s likely they did not do a full load survey of the stall when they set it up and didn’t realize the need for addressing the selective coordination issue.
Wait till these boards are upgraded for AFDDs we have had these kinds of boards for years in the US - false trips will grow much more and coffee machines, microwaves A/C equipment with motors that create voltages and current spikes/sags are much more likely to blind many of the first generation AFDDs as these transients mimic serial and parallel arc signatures. Adding some kind of filtering including but not limited to surge suppression devices which can help limit in-rush and transients will be the way to go or programmable second third generation AFDDs to better discriminate loads that have large motor (inductive/capacitive) or heating (resistive) loads programmable AI/Machine learning AFDDs or AFCIs will be the way to go. However these are expensive. They have started to come here in the US you are only going to see these issue with power quality meters and higher sampling rated portable oscilloscopes.
Every you said in the last section of the video, solid information
love the know it all on site tech (not a electrician) think he was very close to wanting you banned from the store when you was questioning the reason why there is a normal RCBO feeding a consumer unit (but he is only correct unfortunately just because someone put the socket and plug on a consumer unit that really should have just been wired) and the you can't use the phone (how would you know to use the phone in the first place lol, also the longer he takes to come down to do his job the more you charge for the extra hours and you directly tell his boss why it's going to cost more because the building caretaker didn't want to just stay until problem is solved
I would have said I was told to use that phone and I was authorised to use it and that's not your concern so we can move onto turning power back on as I believe I have found the fault, if it does trip again I will call your boss instead if you don't come down when you should be down here anyway (but your way works as well I guess) you should forward this video to them (your unlikely to get a call to that mall again anyway lol)
problem is partially been created by the last electricians that didn't do their job properly and installed it in this way that causes nuance tripping in an inaccessible part of the building (you could tell how annoyed he was getting hinted of improper use of RCBO in the main unit and not wanting you to take a photo of it, other sparks probably told him that it should not be a RCBO but he was more focused on the 40a load on a 32a mcb previously)
also upside down RCBO needs to be replaced immediately with correct ones (electrocution risk due to incorrect operation on is off, off is on and invalidates the insurance)
I think from how that guy explains it there are two plug and sockets, hardwiring the consumer unit won't therefore change anything. From what he said the Mall provides power to a floor box with a 32A socket in it, hence why it is protected with a RCBO. I would think it highly unlikely you could get them to change that. Looks like those locations are not designed for the loadings this business is pulling. Looks like they need to move to a location with more power, like a dedicated retail unit or reduce their load footprint if possible. If they have added extra services to their main function (Bubble Tea) the guy mentioned soup, I see they have a microwave there and maybe other stuff, then they need to remove those until they can move to a larger unit. I agree on the upside down RCBO change and can't believe how anyone competent would have done that. I would have suggested trying 13A Sockets with 10mA protection built in but for the fact the board needs sorting anyway. That said you can tell there have been ongoing issues here not just with tripping but overloading, like you said 10mA protection might open up nuisance tripping, but would save having to get the maintenance guy out for resets . Also the installation is simply not suitable for the 32A supply, ring circuits should be radials since upstream device is 32A. Main issue here seems to be a business trying to do too much in a location not designed for it.
Love the video, you're a great guy
Ohhhh shopping centres...have to have that many passes.
Had to go back 3 times just to fix a simple fault due to company i was working for not having right permits etc.
All fun well done Del you were polite and friendly.😊
Not sure guy was returning the favour... 😈
I allways find commercial fault finding even more interesting than domestic because there's usually more to go wrong
Hi Luke. Thanks for watching Yeah commercial can be more challenging.
I worked in a shopping centre about 10 years ago and the main problem is now they are all contracted out to big facilities companies that pay their staff as little as possible.
Before I was ( let go ) I was the lead engineer , but the company that took over though I was too expensive so my junior got my job on about half my pay .
That is why most of the maintenance staff ( not saying all ) are useless.
If the team can’t fix it they just call in experts and charge the centre extra, with them putting a fee
on top
Hi David. Thanks for watching. The sparky said they weren't allowed to do the work?
What a absolute prat he was can’t be that good of a spark otherwise he would of done it. Fair play del held your cool, the prat’s we come across in this world no hood fair play del 👊
Thanks for watching. I try my best.
Always easier to be a bit of a diplomat, as you said busy my arse!...busy drinking tea and playing cards
Another excellent video. These jobs seem to find you! I always thought the jobsworths who think they rule the world only targeted me! I have to agree with the previous comments, if they know the supply was overloaded why didn’t they do something about it and rectify the situation…. If I was these ‘electricians’ manager I would certainly be asking questions.
They’ve told em they’re overloading the circuit.
Their terms would be to supply the operator 240V at 32amps.
If the operator exceeds that - then yes / probably could be supplied more - at a cost - BUT. The whole system is overloaded already.
The operator can always go somewhere else or look at the equipment he’s using & see what alternatives available ie don’t use all the units at same time / use 1 less soup unit! 😂
cmon guys there just plain grumpy DICKS lets just say it how it is! they talk to people like shite even when you are just there to help too but sadly tho they are everywhere unfortunatley😫
Great videos delroy! That guy had an attitude 😂
Good explanation on the summary Mr James. 👍 shopping centres - hated working in them.
So glad I stumbled upon this channel. Susbcribed!
Nice one del only down the road from me that good work also that so called sparky was a right tool 😂
Shut up son what do you know 😂😂
@@deanwilson7031 😂😂😂
Exellent job sir
that 1st guy you spoke to was either having a really bad day,,, or is just an a hole, i dont think i could compose myself like you did there 🤣🤣🤣
I love things that are installed in places to be used that are not allowed to be used.
Need to cover your backside around guys like that, they know everything until something goes wrong and then they know nothing but blame everyone! Typical glorified caretaker!
Hi Tim. Thanks for watching what you say is right. Best to trust your own judgment.
Nicely done! Typical jobsworth, sad when they are in the trade...
hi,
electrical engineer from germany here.
firstable: good work.
second:
the call from 1:37 --> from my personal experience, which I have collected over the years, you should be very sparing with technical information. most people are only confused.
they call you because you have expertise they don't have (knowledge is power). means, they want to know at most, when the problem has been found and repaired (!) what approximately the fault was and who was responsible for it being in this condition (careful, in case of doubt just say you don't know, unless it was really grossly negligent and you have the suspicion that other electrical installations are of similar quality. reason: you put yourself in a difficult position if you denounce colleagues.
this is just a little information on the side.
the second --> 4:50
perfect reaction! in situations like this, there is no other way than to grit your teeth and de-escalate the situation. especially electricians who are permanently employed have extremely little to do and often do nothing the whole day (my experience). they are virtually on standby and accordingly have to justify their own presence for the employer and, above all, for themselves. furthermore, there are quite a few people who feel personally attacked when people from the outside intervene in their area of expertise! quite often already experienced. if there is then also a bad character, this can end very quickly in a dispute.
keep it up! and best regards
Agreed, mate. TD RCD at the main board. Any tripping would then be on the stall users board and not theirs. Poor setup.
I pray I have your patience with people as I age because me and him would’ve had a real problem right from the start
Not sure about classifying that kiosk as an outdoor installation, but it probably would come under "uncreased hazzard", due to possibility of wet floors and surfaces, and due to the large contact surface to a persons hands and other body parts (reducing the contact resistance) on all those metal surfaces.
Edit : Not sure about UK reg's on commercial, but I would think all those metalic installations should be bonded to earth.
It's the plugged in consumer unit that makes it classed as outdoor (as he says :) ) as its just a plug anything could get plugged into it so has to be 30ma no delay,, should be hardwired into the consumer unit and main panel should get changed to a time delay type (the 2 RCBOs must be replaced, inverted operation is not allowed)
or thow a 5 10ma RCBO in that consumer unit, 2 have to be legally be replaced anyway as operating inverted to normal operation, as he said 3 phase designed RCBO in a single phase box
Funny thing was I am guessing they had a normal MCB feeding that consumer unit but because if was pulling 40A (they don't always trip at 32A) they replaced it with RCBO with same RCBO 30ma as the consumer unit
Thanks for watching. Yeah that outdoor comment didn't make sense to me either. I didn't comment because I wasn't sure if he was right or wrong. It's not outdoor!
@@eastwayelectrical : So Del If that outdoor plug was removed and the cable was hardwired into the Kiosk's Consumer unit then there would be no need for an RCBO at the Shopping Center's board ?
Goooood man
The "on" position of the switches were written on the box in marker pen all along.
The on site sparky really helped
Would have liked to see you take the coffee mixer, to a different location with completely different feed and circuit to verify that the issue travels with the mixer.
Maybe several different feeds just to make sure.
Del, Do it the other way around, put 10mA RCD's in the kiosk board. Though without actual checking of the discrimination curves there could still be certain instances the upstream still trips, it should at least reduce the likelihood significantly.
Well 2 of them backwards RCBOs need replacing anyway what's 3 more RCBOs at 10ma to stop/limit the main RCBO tripping (would 10ma cause nuisance tripping, it's not like its running a house but is running lots of heating loads)
or hardwire the consumer unit and replace the main RCBO with time delay one (probably cheaper then 5 RCBOs anyway)
that consumer unit install currently invalidates insurance + electrocution risk due to inverted switch operation
oof what a day. I just had to deal with a non union EC that decided to under size the feeder wires and breakers for a load along with not using any washers/conical on the lugs and just gives me the this is how we have always done it excuse. They used 1/0 instead of 300 MCM
That guy has a superiority complex. Its hilarious when employees try to act like their grandparents were on their hands and knees building the business up
Thanks for watching 🤣
So an rcd issue with the coffee stirer & an overload with all the heater stuff plugged in.
The voice & attitude of the caretaker jobsworth didn't sound too good to me, i would have lost the job by walking away & told him to go sweep the toilets or get a new carrer as a "part time waste paper basket".
Nice work! Do you have a light attached to your gopro or do you use a headlamp?
Good thing it wasn’t in the restaurant that’s sinking. Love the channel delroy.
I got a chint from my supplier. Didn’t pay attention till I fitted into a domestic board. Was upside down. I accused them for Australian imports. Bit was a 3 phase 😂
They are for a 3 phase DB yes.
Cosidering there is a spare way i think i would just seperate and lower the sockets to 20A 10mA rcbo's.
Maybe it's the bat phone that's only used to summon the lakeside batman 🦇 :)
Can you please quote the regs for the fact you can't use a s-type rcd at the mains when you got a commando plug? Thanks for video.
Have they used the C curve RCBO for wiggle room? Most of the stand's loads seem to be resistive rather than inductive.
10:00 not necessarily with time delay, you could also have 2 steps lower, RCBO c32 being 300m and the kiosk having a 30m RCD
good stuff
I don’t think just because they’re using a 2P+E (commando) socket it suddenly counts as an outdoor socket. And it’s indoor in the mall. Mental.
Good video though Delroy :)
Here because the whole thing is plugged in it is my understanding that it's classified as an appliance. Which is another whole ball park of extra regulatory requirements of it's own.
I think that it does make sense to treat it as such because you don't know what is on the end of the 32a socket. The centre provides a supply and the consumer's unit is essentially an appliance. The cable used is probably not the correct type and I'm surprised Delroy didn't spot that that 32a was the supply initially but he's definitely right that the supply should be on a time delayed RCD in this situation.
@@danielplusben maybe I’m missing something having only domestic experience and this is obviously commercial, but outdoor to me I always understood to mean that the cable would be run “outdoors” where it’s either buried or clipped direct and would be exposed to the elements.
Hey guys, sorry but i still dont get why the blender thingy was bypassing the stasnds fusebox? is it beacuse that socket was not going to that box and going to the main center fuse box?
If there was a note on the consumer unit from previous electrician / installer saying how the fuses were working then it would’ve been so much easer 🤔
I hope you’ve left a note on the consumer unit for the next chap in 🤔
You chaps should all try & help each other
I’m here all day
Always remember Empty vessels make the loudest noise.. that lead caretaker was hollow nothing there at all
We're those rcbo for commercial 3 phase board that's why they seemed to be upside down.
you should've asked the guy to take the cover off to see how the wires look in that C32 breaker, and signs of oxidation, arcs, insulation and wire size
Australian wiring done in the UK!
Those arrows on the fuse board, guess they are related to the switch direction. Possible the machine caused the fault in the socket as well given it tripped earlier.
what problem does an upside down rcb cause?
I know this place. I was there this morning ) .
0:14 bruh what the heck, not too long ago I was watching "can't pay we'll take it away" Dope ass soft spoken black guy on there named Delroy too. Only ever heard that name twice too.
I was wondering what you meant by "time delayed", took me a minute to realize you meant discrimination of circuit protection between boards.
That’s it there for a 3phase bored your 100% right
If the combo socket is connected via a plug to the main fuse board, which is protected by a 32a c type rcbo. The ccu at the kiosk is being overloaded, the rude jobs worth Sparky said they were pulling 40amps, so there is going to be discrimination on the circuit.
Not sure, but watching at the end, i think the mic is 90° off. It should have the Rode logo straight i think, to work 100%.
Why did you not open the fuseboard first ?
Whenever a maintenance engineer says they are really busy usually the total opposite. They are sitting down somewhere doing f all
The guy that came up to you that claimed to control the centres board was 100% not a sparky. That's a caretaker at the very most.
the rcds /rcbos would be marked for industrial use again check your regs buy the books .
you should Owen them if you are dealing with electricals
This is worrying me , as if the same upside down fuses were in the residential property supplying electric shower and one of our plumber decided to replace the shower and he thought he turned off the circuit , but in the reality he switched it ON.
That combo socket need to be removed and then connect the cable directly into the board. Then you probably don't need a 30mA RCD on that circuit.
that guy would’ve had me spitting fair play to you times like that when i wish i could just reel off the regs and prove them wrong lol
Good one del stuff those guys just a couple of flogs
Wish the faulty appliance can be sent to Big Clive!
Where did u get buy ur coat from ?
I only ever had £2,000,000 public liability and worked on contracts up to £600,000,000
Maybe appliances where feeding power back into the curcuit
If you're gonna have to use different Breakers in a panel they should at least be together especially if they're going a different Direction, what a headache!
That little leccy boy was just brewing because everyone knows he’s a muppet and can’t do the job so they called in a real electrician (Delroy)
I reckon he started in that shopping centre and hasn’t left since, the boy lives there now.
Possibly he forgot to unplug himself that morning after his other half pegged him the melty, soppy cu.nt
Keep up the good work Mr James, I appreciate you sharing the knowledge bruv
Respect 👊
The phone is internal what is the dialling extension 201 from extension 272 it’s internal call it will cost of anything
Your end story is funny. Sometimes you have to entertain these clowns.