I think I can fix the RTX 4090 - Undervolting for big gains!
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
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Nvidia's RTX 4090 is the new king of GPUs. It laughs at last generation ray tracing performance, it shrugs off the most demanding of games, it... recommends a power supply with 850 to 1000 watts?! There's got to be a better way - and it starts with undervolting.
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CHAPTERS
---------------------------------------------------
0:00 Intro
1:01 The setup
2:04 MSI say 1000W
4:12 Minimum recommended 850W
5:15 750W & PSU tech tips
7:00 650W PSU doing WORK
9:00 550W PSU for a 4090?
9:58 RTX 4090 undervolting!
12:27 We need to go lower...
13:34 Get those frames back
15:51 Why didn't Nvidia do this?
16:44 Outro - Věda a technologie
My biggest practical takeaway from this video: Seasonic makes good power supplies.
the best 650W power supplies are the ones that are 750W power supplies
seasonic marketing interns out in full force tonight
They do but they also had a whole slew of PSUs that couldn't handle the transient spikes from 3080s and up. My 750w Focus Plus couldn't handle it.
Well they do have a 10 year warranty. Their putting a lot of balls to promise that quality.
@@jakestocker4854 that's unfortunate. I have a 3080 with a same psu you have. It's doing really fine. I guess you need to check your warranty for it
To be fair, if you can afford a 4090, you can *probably* afford a 1000W PSU
To be fair if you have to invest so much in a gpu power consumption would be something I want toned down. Why I always love the 60 series of whatever series, good balance between power consumption and performance. Electricity is damn expensive
I can afford it but won't. If there was a 300W version of it, I would.
@@marsovac Sure sure sure sure sure
Sorry, I had a $2000 budget so I had to put my 4090 in a thinkstation with a i7 3770 and a 450W OEM PSU.
But I would probably don't want my rig to waste more watt than necessary.
8:30 Its a Titanium rated that has a minimum efficiency of ~90% at 100% load on 115VAC. Therefore 754W input would be ~678W output, which is only about 4.4% over but is probably within the design tolerances. Also, if your were running this on 220VAC you'd be at >94% efficiency and well within spec.
The 650W is what the unit can output. It doesn't matter if you're running at 115VAC or 220VAC the specs are the same. The efficiency is different, that's correct, the higher input power the better efficiency.
A 650W power supply is rated for 650W output.
At 100% load it'll consume ~722W at 115VAC and 691W at 220VAC.
So yes, the numbers Linus saw was well within tolerance of the unit and not surprising at all. Sustained load seems to be around the limit of ~722W with a few higher peaks but nothing that should trigger OCP for a good unit.
So you agree with robertu? he was saying the 700 and change watts reading was input when linus was comparing that to the PSU's rated output@@m4ster_root
@@JoshDavies111 what I was saying was, that the extra efficiency of 220VAC wouldn't change the output W.
Robertu said, "also, if you were running this on 220VAC you'd be at >94% efficiency and well within spec".
At 115VAC he said, "probably within design tolerance".
Being more efficient at 220VAC won't make it more or less within spec. It'll just consume less at the wall, it'll still output ~678W and be a bit over spec, but surely within design tolerance.
@@m4ster_root
yes you are right, but robertu was saying if you pull 750w in the 220v wall plug, you are in the spec of 650w :)
This is a testament to the quality of Seasonic PSUs. Really pays to invest in something that you know will last.
I think it would be some kind of irony or satisfaction if they used an EVGA power supply
But is Seasonic better than EVGA? I have 5/10 years left on p2 750 watt.
@@fynkozari9271 I've always heard that SeaSonic is the gold standard (or Titanium I guess?) in PSU quality. The company that manufactured EVGA's P2 series, Super Flower, is another company said to be top tier. I expect that P2 will outlive its warranty.
@@depressedcapy5494 Seasonic, EVGA and Corsair. These are the top 3 brands to stick with when buying a PSU. top quality products, all absolutely amazing. Been building PC’s using these PSU’s only. Never failed or blew up. Just make sure you don’t buy any of the 80+ Bronze rated PSU from ANY manufacturer. Always choose the 80+ Gold/Platinum or Titanium PSU’s if your budget can allow it.
Seasonic on PSUs is like Noctua on fans. Top quality.
8:42 the "THE FAN ISN'T EVEN SPINNING" just floored me 😂
Linus thought he was close to its limit 😁
that titanium 650 watt has to be good , just chilling on a 7900x and 4090.
Unironically a good ad for them.
Lol
❤️ 😍 lol got me tooo
Mad props to sea . Sonar
See sonic hedgehog
Wtf no sonic emoji
How can i be funny 😁
Without all the emojsssessesss
Mad 😠 props 👏 to 650 watt
And Ss
Dang
Ss dont read below
Doing so will cost another 1 million
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And daughter 25 %
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By scrolling you accept these terms seasonic
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If anyother company tries to use my intelectual property without me or my daughters permission
Call me to negotiate
Not my daughter.
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Your new slogan
"Real gamers get it"
Seasonic
SS THE BALL IS IN YOUR COURT
linus can negotiate on my behalf
Linuses my hopefully noisey manager
He is on 50%
Sperate from my 100% and my daughters 25%
Other companies
How to fix a 4090:
Tell Nvidia to stop using a new connector with tiny terminals for lots of amps.
Lmfao exactly 😅
How many amps? Here's ohms law I=P/V
I do food reviews while I’m high on my CZcams channel 😅
My plug barely gets warm on a Gainward 4090
Not sure what people are doing
@@kilmor3151 if the plug is getting warm at all outside of thermal input from the heatsink or VRM being near it warming the PCB, thats an indication of a problem.
Looking forward to a video testing PSU capabilities vs specs, because *clearly* that test needs to be done!
@@user-in2mb8dw7i shut up scammer.
You can go to Gamersnexus for those tests.
PSUs need a big buffer to accomodate power spikes. I think none of their tests triggered OCP below 130% load.
Toms hardware and hardware busters are what u need
Der8uer had interesting video on 4090 where he tested different Power targets and found that around 60% Power target still yielded +90% of the original performance. Nvidia is pushing their cards to the limit for every last bit of FPS, but I can imagine that users should have a field day undervolting or setting their own power limits to save a buck and still get almost same performance.
To anyone reading this there are people now saying undervring is effective on the 4090 with the post -release drivers.
I got an extra 1-1.5 fps in Cyberpunk RT: Overdrive, path tracing on and maxed out everything in 4k undervolting to 975mv/2800.
@@jwlaffertyis the heating also reduced?
This is a great promotion for Seasonic. When your stuff is so good that it can go 100 watts over their rated specs and will keep trucking. Congrats Seasonic, you've proven yourself a great choice. (Also, that Q7 case is really slick.)
PSU's having a 100W overbudget before they trip is very common from reputable brands, Seasonic is not the only one doing it.
I mean, Gigabyte also had a power supply that could go over spec, but only once
Delta will do the same. Their 350w sff psus for oem dells will do 500w no bother.
I would still rather be BeQuiet power supplies because they are silent
@@Ladioz seasonic ones are silent too just under load they arent when they need to cool down
When a manufacturer goes beyond one's expectations, that my friends are rare. Well done Seasonic! Now I'm feeling a little better about my Seasonic Focus GX 750W.
Same.
Seasonic is basically the best psu manufacturer since a very long time
This video is actually the best Seasonic commercial I have ever seen. 100% getting a Seasonic next time, even if I'm happy with my Corsair RM850x
it's nice that the psu can push so much but hope you won't try something like this
@@vedomedo There's a pretty good chance your Corsair RM850x is actually a SeaSonic. They silent-OEM a bunch of other manufacturers premium product lines.
I'd actually like to see a power efficiency study on desktop PC components over the years. That is, setting hard power limits over them (using hardware instead of software if necessary. The power target option offered seems more of a suggestion than an actual limit) and seeing which components benchmark better while consuming the exact same amount of power.
This is actually huge for SFX power supply users. I've got an O11 mini that can very much house a 4090, and I've been heavily considering getting one. Finding available SFX units that push over 750W is incredibly difficult, and with a small case like mine, heat is a concern. I'm glad these can run at lower power draw, it makes decision making much more easy.
14:02 - for the curve editor, you do not need to individually move each point manually. Instead, select the point like Linus did, then hold shift, click and drag the area right of the point (you will see the background be highlighted). Then shift+enter twice and all points should align on a nice flat line. Hope this saves someone some time.
Why did he move that single point up to create a spike? I didn't understand that part of the video.
@@Keavon as far as I know, in Afterburner as soon as you hit the "accept" key, all the points right to the point you dragged up move up, too. So you don't adjust this one point but every following point.
i just drag one up. hit enter twice. exit. done. it does it itself.
@@user-in2mb8dw7i ah yes real linus sebastian. Not a fake at all
@@Keavon because when you create a flat line, the GPU will try to set the left most clock which is the lowest voltage.
A 550W PSU pulling 650W from the wall is expected. Some of that is efficiency loss, some is whatever you have before OPP triggers. Remember, that 550W is *output* power.
Look at those ugly cables running for only 1 gpu, YIKES.
It's also not a calibrated device most likely and as a metrologist I would say the error on it is probably in excess of 5%. So it could be a good bit lower than it's reading out.
I'm annoyed this wasn't explained as it makes a big difference!
that s the comment i was looking for , absolutely !!
pulling 750 w for the 650w model is "fine" , beeing a gold or platinum PSU , 10% loss , = you are at max spec + a little overhead from seasonic
Pushing the silicon too hard when they need to be finding new ways to increase processing through increased code handling efficiencies.
This is awesome. Just as fun as old school overclocking, maybe even more so. Most of all it has practical benefits, less heat, good for your power bill and the environment. We should all be more conscientious of our power consumption, even beyond gaming. Great video.
Yes it's like reverse overclocking. Instead of trying to squeeze the most out of your hardware by any means necessary it's trying to keep as close to stock performance while reducing power draw ahahaha.
its nice to see a video about power supplies. I recently bought an RX 6700 XT and was unsure if my 550w bronze psu would run it, everywhere online said it wouldn't work but i've been running it just fine with 0 crashes and i've been pushing it pretty damn hard too.
I think those PSU calculators do a better job than most forums.
You see on forums "you NEED 800W or reality will break!" while something like the be quiet! calculator goes "yeah at 600W you'll have a 73% load with your system"
Well i play with a overclooked 3080ti and 5800x3d with a 750w bronce and it also works with no problem
Linus: is constantly afraid about somebody or something trying to kill him
Also Linus: grabs a 650W PSU that is under heavy stress load outputting out of spec 750W, with his bare hands
It's probably fine. The metal enclosure is grounded and insulated from the stuff inside that can kill you. You should never open one up, though, even when not plugged in.
"Trust no one. Not even yourself." came to mind😂
it's safe. worst case his hand might catch a spark from a component dying. 120v isn't enough to arc outside od the case.
Most likely result is blowing a fuse which will be startling but not dangerous.
This a great ad for Seasonic
The one thing i learned from this video is to be DAMN sure to put a seasonic psu on any build from now on
Nice! I'm using a Seasonic Focus FX Gold Plus 550W in my system (i5-12600K, RTX 3070, RGB AiO with a bit more RGB thrown in) and despite various PSU calculators telling me I'd be alright, I was a little worried every time I upgraded my GPU (1060 3GB to 2070 Super to now RTX 3070). I've had zero issues with the setup with all three GPUs I've had/have in there.
To Seasonic's credit, the power supplies shut down exactly as they were supposed to. "Gigabyte, I am Seasonic. I shutdown when needed. I do not explode. We are not the same!"
I would like to point out a mistake. The power supply wattage refers to the power output and not to the value measured from the wall. So at high loads (in %), it is normal that the consumption from the wall is higher than the number written on the PSU.
true thats mainly what differs good ones from bad ones (well the most impactful one, alongside with many other things)
although i think watt meter measures wall power, not sure
It's a seasonic platinum, the efficiency is around 90% at 100% load. Imo, the watts were a little high for the rated power. But like Linus said, maybe they had the headroom. After all, the fan still wasn't spinning 😄.
@@carlwillows Almost all quality psu:s have 100W at minimum. rm850x can handle over 1000W:s for example.
@@carlwillows they are operating in a climate controlled environment. I'd recon at higher temperatures the fan would occasionally kick in.
As someone who's learned the lesson about modular power supply cables the hard way, my heart jumped into my throat at 4:44
Was looking for this comment lol. I literally thought something actually blew
Apt timestamp. 4 is an unlucky number in Japanese & Chinese superstition, because in their respective languages the number is pronounced similarly to "death."
I do this all the time but before I do I check the voltages with a multimeter and if they don’t align I’ll move the pins in correct spot
Mine is not even modular, I used the wall outlet of Cougar to a Corsair PSU, fried the whole thing lol.
@@aggressiveloaf6900 You mean the AC wall cable?
Those have standardized pin-outs, anything else could result in electrocution when the ground wire isn't properly connected.
Well, I have a Prime 750W PS and just bought a 4090. I guess that this video eliminates any doubt on whether or not my PS can handle it, especially since my CPU is a 5600X
bro ur gonna be bottlenecked so hard
@@jetnyan2348 No I really am not. I found a place that benchmarked the 4090 with different CPUs and in many there was no difference at 4K, and only a couple outliers where they was like 5% difference. It will be a little shower but we are talking a couple frames here and there.
Are you just running two 8-pin cables from the power supply to the 4090 adapters? I.e. only 2 of the 4 adapters occupied? Or are you plugging in the pigtails too?
@@MattHanr I am not going to use the NVIDIA adapter I will use the one Seasonic is making
@@johnnyp6202 looks like your PSU does have three 8 pin connectors. Does that adapter utilize all three? But yeah from everything I’ve researched you’ll be good as long as you’re using all 3
Don't forget that ripple measurements for your PSU are VERY IMPORTANT, also. Ripple affects overclocking and overall stability of your whole PC, especially CPU & GPU.
Undervolting is awesome, and you'll see REAL savings on power consumption on your hour long gaming sessions. so much more appealing than squeezing out 2 more FPS with an overclock
And also lower noise and temps! Undervolting is the new overclocking
^this, my 12900k+4090 both undervolted draw 200w less in cyberpunk for a 10% fps loss
@@bvbdrag0n Some cards can even undervolt AND overclock! My 3060ti can boost up to 1900+mhz and it only eats up about 80w-120w at 80% utilization.
For the foreseeable future I will definitely buy a Seasonic PSU if it's in my budget
Edit: Also the reason manufacturers don't undervolt at the factory is because it can cause a lot of instability, so they overvolt rather than undervolt for stability purposes
I'd 100 percent recommend seasonic. Have the 850w one from like 2016 2017ish and still running strong and is in my new 12900k build with a 3080 no issues.
prob bcs the values works on every/most products so time efficiency in tests
its true that most cpu gpus almost certain can undervolt
Seasonic had problems with RTX, if you are using that, then Seasonic it's a nono ...
Actually it's worse PSU, the more it draws from the wall over the spec.
650W with 80% efficiency draws 813W
650W with 85% efficiency draws 765W
650W with 90% efficiency draws 722W
650W with 95% effiiciency draws 684W
Takeaway: reduce the lowerlimit on the 4090. the drop in power draw and heat going from 100 to 75 or 70 is huge, the drop in performance is like 5%.
der echte ersteller der legendären let's ähms
Heat doesn't matter, the coolers are overbuilt af anyway 😂. Regardless though, absolutely, with memory overclocking and undervolting u can get it to baseline performance again if u know what ur doing
@@Frozoken exactly. if you have a slighr idea what you're doing, UV everything. My 1070 runs at 1911MHz and 912mV (< 120W under load) with +600 mem.
My Ryzen 5600 holds almost 4.4GHz (1.01V) even in a heavy workload like Handbrake x265 encoding, while drawing under 70W in this worst case
We already have a ray-tracing stress test: Unigine's Superposition Benchmark. It came out in 2017, but the stress test loop setting isn't included in the free version. It's in the Advanced version which costs $20.
3DMark doesn't have a RT test already?
@@---pp7tq Port Royal tests raytracing but it's also not free. It's also not as good as Superposition in my opinion.
Pretty soon your going to need to pull your own 30 amp power circuit to power your pc.
@DONT CLICK MY VIDEOS!! MY VIDEO IS FOR COURAGEOUS don't worry we won't.
We'll be going from mAh to MAh
you mean just for the GPU right?
LOL 220v PC
American issues
8:33 PSU OUTPUT is 650W not its consumption. so with 20% loss it could take up to 780Watts... plus the specs of the power supply will probably state how much transient load it can handle.
This. I was suppirsed that they didn't hit on this more. I was surprised that the 550W PSU couldn't get up and running. It could hit 660+ watts from the wall if it's only 80% efficient. I think Linus was correct in it was likely overloading a single rail or connector. Not the total consumption ratting of the PSU.
Could you elaborate your statement? So the 650W stated limit is for the output, and is that true for all PSUs?
10% efficiency is what a titanium psu is rated at for 100% utilization. It is probably over built to meet those specifications.
yeah it seems like the solution is to switch to titanium and undervolt the psu...
That 650W is for the total load on all voltage levels (12V, 5V, 3V and -12V). Usually the max output for 12V (from which CPU and GPU are powered) is lower than that.
I ran a 3080 Ftw3 & 5800x on my Evga SF-650W for nearly 2yrs without any issues and I overclocked. Currently running a Msi 4090 gaming trio and 7700x on the same power supply and have not seen any crashes. Glad I tried it before I panic purchased something I didn't need.
Electric bill will be high lol
Great video ! .... wasnt expecting to end at an undervolt / underclock when searching for a voltageunlock 😅
3090 its been a while ...
The 650 should be the max continuous output provided by the PSU to the components. The PSU can pull more from the wall to provide that. Thats where the 80+ certs come into play. The less it pulls from the wall to provide that continuous power, or the power efficiency it has, the higher the certification. So having the PSU pull 750+ from the wall and the game continuing to run isn't a big surprise.
This is especially important considering the quality of Seasonic PSUs, and their insane efficiency, especially the prime series.
This. Thought this guy had professional electrical engineers on staff lol.
@@WhiskeyTangoFoxtrotOffRoad 10 years ago, that 80+ cert meant 80% of whatever the psu was. That meant you only got 640w out of a 800w power supply. That seems to have changed....or maybe it's a seasonic thing. If you look up online what gold cert psu ratings are, they all say the same thing
@@kwanro9172 Not exactly, it's 80% only for Bronze level, with 80+ Gold it's 92-95% if I remember (this is one it's named as 80 **PLUS**)
@@K3rhos His point is still the same though, whatever % meant % of what is on the box
The tech world would be amazing if the tech companies actually did what you were speculating about the seasonic PSU. Imagine if these companies released high end products with lower spec names and prices 😩
@@Toss3 Also you could do it with VEGA 56 to VEGA 64, but you needed to have the Samsung memory chips on the VEGA 56
@@RIPYpsilon You could also flash the Hynix ones but with compatible Vega64 hynix bios. However that unlocked everything apart from the 8 CUs. But since Vega was memory bandwidth starved it did not matter much, you were able to overclock the memory and that mattered.
Nothing new here, it's pretty common for reputable brands to have overbuilt PSU's (usually 100W over budget) with a lower spec name.
This is often the case. Some products don't really get that much cheaper to make if you make them worse, and you have to actually pay to design a lower quality product, so they just rebadge stuff and make it cheaper. Working at a truck part company I can tell you this definitely happens.
Industry benefits greatly from mass productions. Probably Seasonic has managed to build a platform so efficient that they don't actually lose margins selling something as a 650W PSU that can sustain much, much more. A cost saving downgrade from a manufacturing perspective might affect their margins as thy would have to use different techniques, I don't know XD
I love seasonic power supply. Have been using prime 650w titanium for 6 years+ and still running good. Even I did some eth mining with it running 24/7 for 1 year+.
8:10 - If these are 85 Plus power supplies, they may have 15% overhead. 15% overhead on 650W of output is 750W from the wall. It makes sense. (Also 550W + 15% is about 635, so that one made sense, too. )
rtx 4090 already getting on fire and then he comes to do this. what a madman
Wat?
He litterly made it draw less power.
Youre comment implies hes making it draw more.
Are u abot?
@@filip9564 nah he’s just dumb
no, but I can
Thank you jackson m, you are truly our saviour!
No, but butt
:)
@@njebs. Yeah, the only thing for me to do now is to sell my liver to earn that 4090
@@gilgomush ass
You actually had me with the sparks there :D
I got a refurbished 850 Titanium Prime from Seasonic. Saved about $80, but the best part is I don't think it'd been hooked up! All the cables were in the original sealed bags except the 24 pin. It looked normal with no scratches. It wasn't in the cool bag, which was folded neatly on top of the PSU. But wow, it seems stable and nice. I like imagining going ten years and having it still be strong as anything.
In terms of the lower tier PSUs supplying higher wattages: this is fairly common. OCP/OPP usually triggers at 20% or sometimes more above the rated spec of the power supply. I do not recommend trying to hit that point, but it's good to know that there's a little headway.
Yeah, idk why everyone acts like Seasonic is the only one doing it, their PSU's are amazing but it's fairly common from reputable brands to have PSU's with a higher wattage than the spec say, it's usually a 100W more than what the specs say.
I mean yea it would be a bad power supply if it didn’t have a decent amount of range above the marked rating most electronics work like that, to make up for any variables during manufacturing that could lead to it being below the marked specs.
It's not just a "video game machine", this is my life Linus. This is all I have, this is what I love. It can't possibly be an "unwisely" waste.
What if it is...
when you only have 3 replies to a comment and one of them is a bot.
If video game is your life, then congratulations, you have no life.
unwise. not unwisely. and yes it is.
@@N7-SYS if video game your life, you can appreciate the art of video games. seriously, why is gaming the only hobby looked down on like this? it’s like any other hobby, just people like you fell for boomer propaganda that says games are bad.
Global energy crisis? Rising liviing costs?
No compromises on gaming!
I suggest you do a more exhaustive undervolting guide because that was a truly amazing piece of content.
Great job!
Why is it called under volting and not under clocking? And visa versa?
I can't even tell if this is meant to be facetious. They're only doing this because AMD's RDNA has been getting better linearly whereas nVidia's RTX has been going in the opposite direction: downhill ever since Pascal. This is why so many people switched brands with the 5700XT, most of whom only went back if they were the zeroday launch buyers who were among the unlucky ones with driver problems (I personally didn't have issues it only had a blackscreen out of the box with FreeSync on by default with overvolted default BIOS which I turned that off and used EnhancedSync instead and never had a problem with it, been graciously happy with it since so much I'm still not upgrading this year). Anyone else is and has been steadily switching to AMD, which is only the sensible thing to do at this point.
But really it depends how much they charge, because if it's even vaguely vidia-like then they're both ripping us off, only AMD less so. And even then, let's be honest here Ampere was a shitshow it was because AMD fully caught up to nVidia with RDNA2 and they knew it, hence the absurd power draw and using R9 Sapphire Nitro Fury pass through coolers from a decade ago to try to keep the thing from thermal throttling on RTX 3000. And then we get this shit, and I knew once I saw those TDPs that AMD already basically won. They're going to be cooler, smoother, more efficient, less stuttery, probably have better frametimes generally, and have a better pricetag. What was it, the GT 280 or something like that? The last time nVidia got forced to slash costs because their cards were literally worse than AMD's but cost $250 more? So nVidia had to lower their flagship from $650 to $400 just like AMD's better performing more efficient, what was it the HD Radeon 5970 or something to that effect? So here's where we are now.
Basically all I just see is simping for a company that doesn't love us and making Intel fanboy-like rationalizations for a company that's desperately trying to keep up, and meanwhile the only sole reason we even have nVidia scamming us so hard is because nVidia fanboys watch Jensen fuck their wallets and they love it. I for one don't. I refuse to purchase their crap until they lower prices, just like I adamantly refused to buy a new RTX card back in 2021 and just like I refused to pay for the overpriced crap this summer because there's no way I'm getting a 3050 for $350 that's a complete scam. Meanwhile RX 6600(XT?) was like $100 cheaper and it outright slaughtered the 3050.
>b-but muh features!
on a 3050, which literally doesn't matter because a 3050 performs worse than a 5600XT so you're not gonna be getting to use raytracing anyway, not even with playdough-and-ghosting tier upscaling. The fact these kind of things get justified is why we have outrageous pricing, because the corpos are going to keep jacking the prices until enough people refuse to pay it, which is exactly why this "inflation" i.e. price gouging throughout the economy happened so bad anyway, because all the corpos realized they could charge literally whatever they want and just blame the government's monetary policy and people would blindly buy that (probably 60-80% of all cost increases this year has been solely runaway corporate greed, watch these CEOs in interviews literally saying they realized they can charge whatever they want and only will stop jacking prices when "the consumer finally refuses to absorb the cost increase")
So mark my words, in approximately 3 months time all the flamewars and shitflinging is basically going to be because AMD just beat nVidia across the stack finally, having already reached parity up the stack last year, and with their sole advantage being a really marginal edge in raytracing the whole argument will be only "you should buy nVidia no matter what it costs because they do raytracing about 5fps better at 1440p"
You can screencap this because that's literally what's going to happen January 2023. They're literally going to be justifiying and rationalizing buying outrageously overpriced hardware based solely on the metric of RT, because AMD would have already shown itself to be the better buy and much better made hardware.
@@bland9876 Undervolting does not necessarily decrease clock speed, and I think there were even some people who undervolted Vega GPUs while overclocking them. This varies depending on the quality of the individual GPU and on how conservative the stock voltage curve is.
@@liquidcorundum6568 so you're telling me those two things are different unlike hz and fps where those are the same sorta.
@@bland9876 Undervolting reduces the voltage, while underclocking reduces the clock speed. A certain amount of voltage is required to run a certain clock speed stable, and higher clocks typically require higher voltages, but there is also a factor of silicon lottery. Manufacturers add some voltage safety buffer (higher voltage) to account for silicon differences and electrically noisier environments. If you can remove some or all of this buffer, because you got good silicon (as in not the worst that still barely passes, but average), or a stable environment, you can somewhat reduce the voltage without losing stability. This saves power and heat load (chip power = heat btw). If you want to go even further, you can slightly underclock the chip to be able to use even lower voltages, and get significant power savings.
The most significant part of a semiconductor chip's power consumption scales linearly with clock speed and with the square of the voltage, so small undervolts can result in big saving, and small underclocks can allow even greater undervolts, saving lots of power. I guess that's how they make laptop GPUs deliver roughly 80% of the performance at 1/3 power.
It works the other way, too: you can add voltage to allow for higher overclocks, if you can dissipate the extra heat. Adding too much voltage can slowly degrade the silicon, and there is a threshold that kills it quickly. With recent CPUs and RAMs, 1.4V is generally OK, 1.5V is risky, 1.6V almost certainly degrades over time, and 1.8V-1.9V probably just kills it instantly, unless you won the silicon lottery.
Individual chips also differ in how well they can scale clock speeds with voltage changes, both up and down. You may get one that performs terrible, until you give it 1.6V, then it scales up to record clock speeds. Or you may get a chip that can be greatly undervolted with just a small drop in clock speed. It requires experimentation and stability testing to find out.
After rebuilding the PC recently I'm still focusing on balancing sound/power/performance. I am limited by my CPU but I'm running the GPU with 1V limit, running up to 1990MHz. I'm running 220-240W on the GPU and under 80W on the CPU. Cool, quiet and performance is excellent. I'm losing 3-4 FPS in C2077 compared to having everything maxed out. It's a shame that it requires so much tinkering and I would love to see solutions that would allow anyone to easily achieve similar results.
There is no way ur only losing like 5% performance at less than half power with a 4090
@@Frozoken you are correct as I'm using a 3090
@@lupierz Ay man still that's very impressive (and actually believable now), good on you. That's basically how much my oced 3060 ti uses 😅. Then again I'm sure ur gpu has to go all out less seeing it's faster and I've paired mine with a heavily oced 13600k so my gpu is working overtime lmao 💀😂.
I think what I need is to fix my wallet so I can even afford looking at this.
Lol same 😂
nah
An interesting adventure for sure, and I think the main takeaway really is don't sleep on the power of under-volting components. A lot of work goes into deciding on stock settings that account for manufacturing variability, but you may be surprised by how far below stock voltages your particular unit can operate if you have the time and inclination to fiddle with it. Lower power draw and cooler parts; a straight up win-win.
That being said, please don't skimp on your power supply. There's generally no downside to going overkill (aside from cost), and often even a slight efficiency benefit. A power supply that barely meets your system demand WILL be problematic in the future as components age or your peripherals change (seriously, I've encountered systems running so close to the edge that raising the brightness of the keyboard backlight too much was enough to cause instability, and they are not fun to troubleshoot). If your budget is that tight then try and cut pretty much anywhere else first.
Yup, it's the same story with Ryzen 7000
People bawked at the 7950X pulling 270 watts synthetic benches like Prime95, but everyone calmed down the moment that unvervolting/custom-power-ceiling/ECO-mode tests came out and showed that when the 7950X is placed with a 95% max steady-state performance ceiling, it only uses 144 watts (nearly half of the power consumption when at redline) in those same benches. It's also worth noting that at 144w, the 7950X still has a nearly 40% performance lead over a 5950X at that same power consumption.
6:00 I actually found this out when I went from my rx580 8GB to my RTX 2060 12GB from EVGA, while having a 500W cougar set PSU, i got fps drops and made a bunch of games unplayable, since then I've got 700W GD by EVGA, and it's been amazing.
Rarely have I seen such a good demo of a power supply quality making the difference. That Seasonic 650w handling a sustained 750w load as if it was nothing was truly eye-opening, especially given some of the recent controversies around other vendors. I've always used EVGA before but next time I will have to look at Seasonic.
Undervolting across the board seems to be the way forward.
I agree. Everyone seems to be going crazy with auto OC. I'm wondering if some reviewers will test "doing this will lose 10% of your performance, but your system will use 20% less electricity".
One time out of desperation, I was having issues with a system that was failing, and I was able to hold out until Black Friday by underclocking. The system still performed decent enough
Possible future video idea from this. Given the current crisis regarding energy prices, especially in Europe, it would be interesting to see if you might actually be better off purchasing a higher spec GPU and undervolting it as opposed to the lower spec? E.g. I have a 3070, would I save money on energy if I had a 3080 and undervolted it until the performance matched that of the 3070? If so, how long is the ROE?
your ROI would be a very long time. let's say you end up saving 50w at the same performance, you game for 4hrs a day/365 year, and you pay $.4/kwh you would save about $30 per year. you're better off doing any number of home upgrades like better sealing doors and windows. better insulation in the attic or in the garage especially the garage door. A new air handler (can be massive savings per month). all new led light bulbs. those are just a few things.
@@cbrunnem6102 Here I was just going to recommend led bulbs but you're running circles around me.
@@cbrunnem6102 Thanks for doing the late night maths I couldn't be bothered to do! 😂
I'm fortunate enough to have a new build home, so even in the UK, we don't need the heating much in the winter. We're generally as energy efficient as we can get.
@@Auroraah ha no problem.
@@cbrunnem6102 they're probably paying way more than .4 USD/kwh in much of Europe right now lol
Cool video, I used to mine on a 3080 with a 550w power supply even though everyone said it was stupid and it wouldn't work. But it did for ages with the power adjustments! Eventually the psu would shutdown every time though, it was rather old so I blame it on that.
9:43 loved seeing it crash as you twlk about it not crashing
Very nice to see just *how* good Seasonic power supplies are! And lovely cable management of the bench so it looked good on camera. 👍
Interesting to see some different undervolting techniques to save some power budget.
Thank you for covering efficiency, it has so many advantages. 💙
this was one of the funnier episodes xD I was rolling at each point Linus was surprised the machine hasn't crapped out and the classic 'It's working - why --- it isn't working - why???' ensues loved it - thank u!
Nice try bub…
FANTASTIC!!! I would love to see if the Seasonic FANLESS models can take on the 4090.
The Seasonic Prime Titanium TX-700 especially (which is the most powerful fanless power supply I know of)
Thanks for the video, it really hit the spot! :D such useful insights!
I would love if LTT did efficiency tests on PSU's. It's one of the most critical parameters for any power supply and it's rarely listed or hard to find on computer hardware.. But easily measured and in our day and age it's almost criminal that it isn't being done :P Also! We want to know at what load the power supplies peak efficiency is at!
PSUs*
They will, that and way more stuff we don't even dream about. That's what the lab is for, they going big and I suspect that if they manage to do what's on their roadmap some manufacturers will be very upset, no bs will fly. Did you see the machine they got custom made to test psu's ? They reach out to seasonic for specs and for a brief moment LTT had a better testing rig than Seasonic.
GN is your place to be I think
Uh, the label already tells you the efficiency. Platinum ones are more efficient than the gold ones which are more efficient than bronze ones. Also, there is a PSU tier list on the LTT website.
@@KYSMO No it doesn't. It just means it has at least y efficiency at x load. It's a loose "standard" and not what I'm talking about. I want to know at precisely what load the power supply has the highest efficiency. "Platinum", "Gold" says nothing about that and often they are not certified to meet it anyway.
This was the best Seasonic ad I have ever seen. Going to go with Seasonic PRIME Titanium's now even if its more costly. I have been using EVGA G3/P2 PSU's for years but this literally sold me on Seasonic.
Having used both, I can confidently say that the evga PSUs are excellent. They might not be AS good as Seasonics PSUs, but they're also cheaper, and still INSANELY high quality with an excellent warranty. Their customer service is also top notch.
Have used both also, each company makes very high quality PSUs. The only thing I don't like about my Seasonic one is that it makes more fan noise.
@@Truex007 never doubted EVGA's quality, indeed just the opposite. They are absolutely bossing and I have never had a single issue with the G3/P2/G2 units I have used.
Undervolting is definitely a thing I've finding more and more appealing. Now that I'm working from home more, energy prices are going up and this room just keeps getting too hot from this darn computer, I am thinking about making the jump to embrace some of these changes.
Do it. If I ever had a 4090 (Which I doubt I will a 3070 is fine for me) I would undervolt that thing in an instant. Even thinking about undervolting my 3070.
@@Gatorade69 I did my 3090, stock it goes to 1180mv, it's been limited to 1000mv and it's been good. I could try and go lower but only a few games i play pushes it up to around 400w.
@@Gatorade69 I still have a 1050 Ti.
yeah, my brother had his psu take everything with it, but it was more because of a short that happened because he didn't have it on a power strip and the power went out. he ended up buying new parts and I rebuild most of his pc
Linus never mentions the possibility that advertising a higher power requirement could be a sales strategy. "More power draw means it must be a better performing card" kind of idea.
It goes both ways. Lower power draw to me seems like a more tuned and better quality product.
If something can achieve similar performance with greater efficiency it gives me confidence in their engineering.
I don't see why NVIDIA would go with that angle when they can and do show actual performance numbers.
Even then, most decent 800w power supplies will be more than capable enough for most people. This has always been an over thought on PC hardware for the most part in my opinion. Yes, in recent year, top tier cards have been drawing more power, but unless your system is LOADED, there has never been a reason for a 1000W power supply... for MOST PEOPLE.
Yes can agree, even my old triple 780ti rig with 6 hdds, watercooling and overclocking wasnt breaking a sweat on my corsair 1200i, nontheless a good psu can last you like forever, basically everything changed in my pc beside the psu
I have my 3080 at 220w and my 3800x somewhere around 60w and rarely notice. I love it
Glad to see I have to room for future upgrades with my new 750W psu
This is what LTT is great at, just the reactions, the edits, everything is so fun to watch and informative. I feel like I'm learning every time
It would be really fun to try and map the power savings to direct heat output savings. For those of us that have our rig cooking our small spaces, it would be amazing to know if undervolting/underclocking could help keep the room cool!
It does!
Yeah uh, the power savings tell you exactly how much heat isn't being put out. PC using 1000W? It's the same as a 1000 Watt space heater. Save 400W of power? You now have a 600W space heater.
don't think you understand how power works lol. every single component in your house minus a few, active heat your house by the exact amount of power they use. That 20" box fan you have? yeah it heats the room to the tune of about 100w of heat.
You have to remember that heating power in watts is relative to room size, insulation, air circulation, outside temperature, etc. The Watts/inside temperature coefficient is not a fixed value. The % of reduced Watts will not equal % of reduced temperature unless the pc is the only source of heating in the room. But let's say you're running a 4090 + 13900k, and between the two of them you're drawing 700W. Say you reduce that by 100W, which is a rough 13% reduction. Even if you were to apply a linear reduction in temperature, from say 30 °C, you'd only shave off around 3°C. Of course, the reduction is far from linear, so you'll never get that sort of ° reduction, it'll be more like 1-2°C, if that.
Naturally, the above assumption is that the outside temperature is much lower than the inside temperature. If it's 35°C outside, you'll never be able to drop under 35°C inside as long as there's a source of heat and/or no source of cooler air.
der8auer also looked into the power target and found that running the card at around 70% has the best FPS/Watt Ratio (i.e. it's the most efficient there).
So it seems to be a general trend with the 4090s. They're cranked up so high to get these big numbers, but they're running really inefficiently at this point.
Great ideas for lowering total current draw by just lowering the max power slider for the card. It would not affect performance that much. Great ideas and useful too.
I think this is mainly a testament to just how good Seasonic power supplies are
@@user-in2mb8dw7i atleast try to get the font right when trying to scam people.
@@NoAlias_ I know, who even bothers responding to these
I was hoping this GPU would pull a Vega and perform better than stock when undervolted. The Vega 56 to this day is still the most fun card I've ever tinkered with. I wonder often what that architecture could have done with today's memory.
I like that this is more about how to adjust what is effectively factory overclocked equipment at their true efficient sweet spot.
Seasonic PUT 650 Watt is what i also have, really nice to check what it can do vs this thing, saying this before i even see it.
From what i knew before i bought this 7 years go... yup, 7 years ago is that Tom's hardware tested this specific PSU and its max Wattage capacity was stopped at 784 Watt so i knew it could probably handle it ehehehe.
It had the best hold up times and the rest was just absurdly good as well, only inrush current was high but that's more of an issue for the device outside the PC, personally it never troubled any of my devices who are connected on the same strip and they are, a lot(literally 6 total).
This is the new overclocking in my book. Tuning a system to be the most efficient it can be without dropping performance.
I underclock, FPS limit (RTSS), and power limit my GPU and CPU--because I buy these high end units. The limitations keep things cool and allow high FPS at good power usage. This because the improvements in technology mean that performance is exponentially better at lower power settings, in as much as they increase exponentially for higher clocks. This also affords quieter operation, since these units come with larger coolers meant for much greater power draw. Remember that the RTX 4090 is twice as fast at the same power draw as a 3090, so this is a big win at even lower power levels.
Yet, for all the benefit of better technology it seems that companies are pushing for higher performance wins rather than efficiency wins. To a certain extent, Moore's Law holds true in terms of an exponential increase in efficiency as tech improves. But companies want to show "big numbers" to sell product, and efficiency isn't as appealing to people as "moar speed". Overall, this really sucks because efficient tech is really important to a greener economy, and the sales-driven-mentality is not compatible with a green future.
Very impressive! But on the last power supply, adjusting the whole curve and then just one point on it seems super-janky, like there's an intersection of lines or curves still to be identified before you zero in on the optimized settings.
It's worth pointing out that when unervolting a GPU you may as well aim like about 50mhz lower than you stock core clock, because the memory clock will more than compensate for the drop in performance from the core. For my 1070 I managed to drop over 200mv off of my power usage and still have slightly better than stock performance at a lower core clock speed. VRAM overclocking is literally free performance in every single way, even if you don't want to mess with your core, overclocking VRAM is always worth it for a card that you're going to use long term.
I love Linus' reactions. This has been one of my favorite LTT videos of all time, probably my favorite for that reason alone😂
@@user-in2mb8dw7i IT'S LIENUS
why does linus's pain of the crashes make me happy lol and the giddiness he gets when it works is funnier... keep it up all the way from zim mate. love the work.
Good tip with the modular pin-outs. I’ve considered swapping out a PSU, using the same cables before. Glad I didn’t.
something to remember... those output "watts" are mostly coming from the power supply's 12 volt rail. The PSU rating is often just a nominal value, not a true combination of every rail available on the device. For instance mine is "650W" but it actually outputs 722W if you account for each rail. It might leave more headroom than you think....maybe not enough to make-or-break the system, but the numbers are a little more fuzzy since the manufacturers don't like to use detailed datasheets for their exact power consumption anymore :(
It might not be able to do all rails at full power at the same time. It afaik has a main transformer and rectifyer before making specific voltages or not?
@@the_retag Yeah exactly, it almost definitely can't, at least by the specs
No you can't just add up the rails, you're reading the chart wrong. The 12volt rail now matches the wattage of the psu and that just eliminates the rail itself as a bottleneck, the powersupply can still only transform as much power as it is rated for officially. It would be like saying an Olympic bar can support 10 tons of weight without snapping so a powerlifter can bench 10 tons, that's just not how it works, just because the bar isn't the bottleneck doesn't mean the powerlifter can now match the limits of the bar too.
@@Frozoken that's exactly what I said. when each device has a power requirement that is simply given in """watts""" spread across multiple voltages, the singular watt rating is only telling a piece of the story. It doesn't effect a GPU or CPU calculation much, but other devices like the mobo pull power from all three voltages, seemingly adding to the total, but in reality most of it is 3.3v. It's not as much of an issue for consumer systems, but systems with a lot of rotaries get 3/4 of their amperage from the 5v supply.
@@ydna It's not tho I'm saying ur adding up the rails when you can't, the power supply can only transform so much power through its capacitors. It is pure wattage that is the issue there and rails on modern psus aren't really relevant for that. You are right in the sentiment that quality psus can definitely go over their wattage ratings but it's not a rail thing
LTT confirming my finding that cyberpunk is basically the best gpu stress test on the market. My overclocks seemed totally stable even in furmark, but cyberpunk would crash unless I dropped my PC. Incredible piece of software.
Fascinating experiment. I've just replaced my Vega 56 with a Radeon Pro W6600, which performs the same with only 1/3 of the power and while I didn't get any extra performance, I've got a much quieter system which is still pretty much enough for all the games I intend to play on it.
And lower electricity pills
Funny thing about Seasonic is I've had two of their power supplies fail on me in under three years while run way under spec.
While my old Ultra power supplies, that snobby overclockers said were junk (and are no longer manufactured), are still running. I've had a few fail, but only after 10+ years. My newest one must be 8 years old now.
Well unlucky i guess
I run a 3070 and 5800X3D on that exact same Seasonic Focus 550W power supply, no undervolting needed. Just the NVMe SSD and a couple USB peripherals. Never had an issue.
I have a 1000w powersupply, but mainly because it is able to run silently, efficiently and has enough power room when i upgrade or when there are spikes in power demand through boosts/oc.
I got it back when i builz my pc with 2 watercooled 1080s in sli, but i am only running one 1080 now since sli got worse and energy cost went up.
A higher specced power supply will earn itself back by power savings; and if it didn't it will _probably_ last longer.
2 1080s in SLI is still way less Watt than a single 4090 lol
Underutilizing a high spec power supply actually costs you more in the long run assuming it doesn't hit its peak efficiency rating.
Universally PSUs hit peak efficiency at around 50% load, if you had a 850W PSU and only used 300W at full load you're wasting energy.
This is also why leaving a PC idle is detrimental with most PSU because you're in the 75W range at any given time, which is super inefficient on any PSU but especially higher wattage ones.
@@CarbonPanther That being said, efficiency at lower power is actively being worked on, and some modern supplies actually get close to the ATX 3.0 target of 75% at 20 W (e.g. Corsair RM550x 2021, arguably the current low-power king though it's only average in the 50-100 W range). Seasonic's current Prime Ultra Titanium line seems to have regressed somewhat over the older Prime Titanium, which posted excellent efficiency values but apparently also had a certain penchant for blowing up. No free lunches here.
In an 850-1000 W PSU, an 80Plus Platinum rating generally is about the minimum that you want. A Corsair RMx 2021 should be better than expected at low power despite being "only" 80Plus Gold, but expect ventilation needs and hence noise to increase at high loads. 90% efficiency at 900 W means 100 W of heat dissipation, and that's quite a lot for a power supply to get rid of.
@@PileOfEmptyTapes Absolutely, and, speaking of ATX 3.0, this is why i'm absolutely baffled that with the introduction of 2 new sockets and a new GPU power connector, ATX12VO is literally nowhere in sight at a time where it would be needed the most, on the top of my head i cannot think of a single reason as to why it wasn't introduced this gen!
i got an 850w PSU in 2017 for future proofing....
i guess its paying off now LOL
I'd be really interested to see the difference if you had a bunch of led peripherals and usb headers maxed out.
usb 2, is 2.5w per header, usb 3 is 4.5w. Ur average rgb part of a fan draws about 2-2.5w per fan. It'd get detrimental really fast.
long time ago Jonnyguru put an EVGA T2 750 (maybe 850) in a hot box and hammered with a 1kw load - it smashed through it with no issue, barely any fluctuations and didn't cut out, just carried on like beast. short story is, on some high quality psu's there's a lot of overhead, thermally, electronically etc
This video is a great demonstration that Nvidia could have designed their new platform to be quite reasonable on power draw and still give great performance. It's like they're overclocking from the factory.
30 series was very similair
With all those recent benchmark done for those new shiny cpus & gpus I'm honestly thinking about undervolting my next computer. Price to performance component is good but especially nowadays what about power consumption.
Maybe this can be a LTT (lab?) video ? How to get smooth 60~120+ fps 1080p, 1440p & 4k full setting for the minimum power consumption ?
This. I've been super disappointed this release season with the power budgets we're expected to provide to run new chips.
Price to performance isnt really "good" - there's a reason they cancelled the 4090Ti. The value just isnt there, and they'd have to lower the price of the 4090, etc. Which they should, but wont until AMD releases their new cards at least.
Check out de8auer's video on the 4090's power target. He goes into much greater detail about effeciency
Go to wmrt buy a mini fridge ,install rack mount hardware in the mini, mount hottest unit closest to freezer portion of mini. Temp,filtered air and humidity control
Heat is the enemy.
Don't do Whatsapp,ever.
Just saw this video. Good to know. Basically the only thing that was holding me back on buying a 4090 was my beQuiet 750W Platinum power supply and my absolute displeasure to rewire a new 1000W power supply. Just because I really hate cable management. :D But since the 750W should be enough I just ordered a 4090. ;)
I made the mistake of not grabbing a power supply with my card the morning I got it and waiting until the afternoon instead. Ended up having to go waaaaay over spec and ended up with a 1600W power supply. At least this thing will last me through basically any future upgrade possible...
We hope.
Im looking forward to the mobile versions of this architecture. That could really show how efficient the chips are.
Lol samsung had issues with things exploding for awhile at one point. Can't possibly see what a mobile version of this will do.
@@KillZallTheBeast I was referring to laptops. Nvidia doesn't put their good chips in anything else.
@@LegendaryMike well yeah the mobile gpu version of this not a phone. I only brought up samsung since they also had washers and just products in general exploding.
@@KillZallTheBeast _Note 7 flashbacks intensifies_
Me too. Ghetto 3060M works like 15% worse with half of power.
You need to look at the efficiency curve on the PSU, normally at 60-80% mark, so thats equal to a 800-1000w power supply to be most efficient on energy losses, plus for voltage stability you never want to be running a PSU at max power for those instant power bumps the PSU may lag causing volts to drop.
Power supplies are typically most efficient at 30-50%. I can't think of any psu that would be most efficient at 80%
I really hope the next gen of cards are more efficient and smaller. Or at least give us the option to toggle between last year's performance with this year's efficiency and vice versa. It'd be nice to crank everything up when a piece of software demands it, but for casual games or CPU bound titles like eSports, having this built into the GeForce overlay would be nice.
Could we add 12v super capacitors into the cables to buffer those power spikes?
@@user-yt2oi6jq2x I can’t find the CZcams dm function. How do you send dm‘s?
Realistically I think 750 watt psu probably the lowest you should go with a 4090. It crazy how much the games differ on gpu power draw one might be 290 watts then over 500 with cyberpunk’s new update. And it really depends on your cpu some are way more efficient than others. My 1300 psu just kicked the bucket and I was debating on using my evga p2 750 and it probably would’ve worked fine but I went ahead and got a msi a1000G psu mainly because of the 12VHPWR cable makes it so much cleaner having 1 cable instead of 4.
I mean it'll only go to 500w if you allow it. The default power limit is 450w. I agree with your point though, in valorant itd probably be like 150w even with a 13900ks 😂. We need like 5 more cpu generations to fully load the 4090 in some games lmao. That game is provably the most cpu bound game I've ever played in my life it is insane.
@@Frozoken i have a gaming oc 4090 i think it can go to 600 watts. But honestly it’s really not worth the extra power draw, heat and noise its plenty fast enough stock. And the 7950x3d is very efficient most games I’m under 500 with ease (Cpu&Gpu). My last card on average pulls more watts than my 4090 a ftw3 3080ti.
LOL Makes me happy i got a Seasonic PSU for my rig upon your recommendations! :D
My 3070 was boosting to 1980 mhz at 1.1 volts with stock settings. I have it running at 2010mhz at .95 volts. Dropped about 60 watts and gained 30mhz. With my custom fan curve the fans never go over 50 percent and temps never go over 60 degrees celcius (hot spot gets to 70). Undervolting is the way to go with literally every card on the planet.