Tesla Autopilot Crashes into Motorcycle Riders - Why?
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- čas přidán 2. 09. 2022
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Tesla’s Autopilot is suspected in the fatal rear endings of two motorcyclists. With deep learning doing automated feature extraction, it's impossible to know how AI "sees" us. But we have a terrifying guess.
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Directed and Edited by Luke McAdam - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Since this video was filmed, Ingrid Noon was rear ended and killed by a 2020 Tesla Model 3 at 2:11am in Boca Raton, FL. She was riding a Kawasaki Vulcan S cruiser. The Sheriff’s Office confirmed driver impairment and has yet to release any information pertaining to Autopilot. [Update: CNN reports Autopilot was engaged during this crash.]
Thanks for making this video as it is very concerning. Interesting because I just had this thought last night riding my Z900RS in the Seattle area where robots driving Tesla's are everywhere (people are very blank-minded when driving around here). Even though it's not a cruiser I will continue to watch out for them.
May she rest in peace.
Thanks for shedding light on this issue.
Tesla's not going change. But let's imagine if they do. It would take years to implement a safe alternative for motorcyclists (i.e. development, approvals, manuals, corporate bureaucracy, and global implementation). What can our industry do in the meantime? What can we add or modify? I don't want to die, on my way to work. And I don't want to babysit Telsa drivers on the highway.
I have a video suggestion for you. Neck braces: do they work? You could look at studies,testing, anecdotal evidence and such I think it would be great you usually do road focused videos but I think it would be cool.
"Telsa are selling future features today, but today 2 motorcyclists are dead"
That was a really well written, hard hitting line
but what was missing is how many more motorcyclist would have been dead had this nascent technology not been brought into existence. That's what matters.
It's not even known if both drivers are using autopliot.
Sadly, motorcycles are hit by cars every day. Any other brand will be involved in just as many accidents at Teslas. We don't even know these two accidents are connected to auto pilot in any way. So it's not really responsible to make videos like this saying autopilot is responsible when the experts - NHTSA - is still investigating. Best to wait until the outcomes are known.
@@dangrass Tesla fanboys always seem to have some stupid comeback to any criticism. You cant just justify software killing people by making a wild assuming that more people would have been killed without it.
@@YR2050 Ah, Elon fans... When the crash happened, autopilot was not in use, because as mentioned in the video, THE FUCKING THING TURNS ITSELF OFF ONE SECOND BEFORE THE CRASH!
RIP to those poor souls who went out for a ride and never came home. Thank you, FortNine team, for giving their sacrifice some meaning by educating us all.
@@kas1843how would you? Have you ever ridden?
victim blaming bikers to blow Elon's junk. seen it all now.
@Kas Are you crazy.
@@dylancoric1194 I wouldn’t waste you time with him. He is absolutely stupid.
@@dylancoric1194 I ride and there's a thing called mirrors. If not, your neck can turn your head pretty well.
How governments allow this to be tested on the road by customers is beyond me.
$$$
just like seatbelts and airbags which have also killed people due to initial defects and unknown variables.
Simply because it is classified as level 3 autonomy.
Basically adaptive cruise control with advanced lane keeping.
The driver is still in charge of making the decisions or at least should be.
Yeah, we definitely need the government involved in this, they are the best at developing technology.
Because the government only cares about self preservation and making money off the people. Why do people think the government cares about their well being? It's been proven time and time again the government doesn't give a flying F about plebs who ride motorcycles. Those vampires are probably praying we crash so they can harvest our organs.
Part of the excellence of this channel is that F9 knows when to treat a subject with humour, jokes, and innuendo; and when to treat it with reverence, sincerity and seriousness. This is a perfect example of not only knowing what you need to say, but how you need to say it. I applaud the whole team at F9 for their work.
Repent to Jesus Christ “Worship the Lord with gladness; come before him with joyful songs.”
Psalms 100:2 NIV
htt
How many bikers are killed by human drivers in broad day light every year ?? This is just gas lighting.
Spot on 👍
Hear hear!
As do I. Well said.
The taillight theory reminded me of an old Fortnine video about the dangers of using high beams which could end up being mistaken as a distant car when it's actually a motorcycle up close
@Thomas B that took a turn in the end, unlike tesla autopilot when its cruising behind a motorbike
@Thomas B better than Burmese truck drivers that stick a single beam on their bumpers so oncoming drivers would assume it's only a motorcycle only to find at the last minute that it's a massive truck
Yes, you're right! I have found myself in situations like that explained in the high beam video, but as a car driver. It doesn't even have to be a high beam, a simple set of dual head lights, like those on some neo-retro bikes (e.g. Rocket 3) are really tricky to distinguish from "a car far away" even with a low beam. Scary!!
anyone know the title of that video you're referring to or a link to it?
@@austinjackson5220 czcams.com/video/QWPytpiml5c/video.html
I am a 72 year old Australian man with no car. I get around by either walking or cycling or public transport . Am thinking about buying a moderately sized motorcycle for occasionally traveling further distances. Your videos have given me great information on keeping me alive if I do buy a motorcycle. I do have a motorcycle license.
Go for it if you can drive a bicycle I promise you it’s not that different
Fantastic! How has your summer been? Have you been on a bike?
Good luck, brother. I wish you safety on the road.
I’m 66 with only a motorcycle. I’m retired and living in Sicily, which means I can ride all year round. Yes, buy a motorcycle. You will love the freedom. But be careful, the cagers don’t see us. 😅
Send me a CBR650R!
I used to teach bicycle safety and commented to my students that they had to be triply observant: 1) For pedestrians, 2) For themselves, 3) For cars. Human drivers often will see pedestrians but miss cyclists (just a few years ago, I was nearly hit while turning left by a speeder who didn't see me, the bike I was on with multiple flashing lights and reflectors); we're pretty small objects on the roads (and sadly, not all roads have defined bike lanes). A problem I often have to so-called self-driving cars is that they respect those bike lanes (which typically only have a thin stripe separating them from the main road) even less than human drivers do. It's only a matter of time before some Tesla driver decides to use the "auto-pilot" in areas with bicycles and kills one. Frankly, I can't say I'm a big fan of Teslas or self-driving cars right now, and Musk's cynical and callous defense of his vehicles and company only demonstrates his lack of compassion if not lack of intelligence. (a truly intelligent person would have at least simulated compassion for those his vehicles have hit and killed, and Musk never has any)
Musk is just money grabbing project.
It's not that you're 'hard to see'. It's just that hitting you isn't considered a threat to the driver's survival. If bikes had some magical power that somehow cuts cars in half on contact, killing the occupants instantly, somehow, you would be noticed. And given right of way. Everytime.
It's not intentional (I hope), it's just that threats always take priority. All else is meh, optional, at best.
No one should ever trust musk. He is a businessman and all they care about is profit.
@@shahrukh3542 Trust him?Just wants profit?
You think a Liberal grievance echo chamber would be more profitable than a fully inclusive forum where diverse ideas from all angles can be held up for all to examine, good and/or bad and be heard and responded to, hopefully constructively?
Doesn't simple logic tell you that more inclusive means a greater number of participants? And that a greater number of participants equates to a more valuable audience to advertisers?
C'mon dude. Get serious. You're mad because it's no longer *YOUR* Twitter.
Now it's *ALL OF OURS* .
There is no legitimate reason to not want an unbiased forum. NONE.
Sharing freedom is always uplifting to the freed and disturbing to the Elite. FACT.
Musk just truly does not care about human life. His family got their wealth on the backs of their apartheid workers in an emerald mine.
Airplane autopilot technology relies heavily on having redundancy because technology can fail. If you have something else to fall on you still have a chance of getting to your destination.
When that fails you have two pilots.
Unless you're Boeing, then you just forget how redundant systems work.
I never quite thought of the pilots as fail safes, but it’s actually really accurate. Planes like the B2 bomber and I think the F117 nighthawk are nearly 100% auto piloted. The route and time of dropping your load are all pre programmed, and yeah, the pilots are there to monitor instruments, open the bomb doors, and make sure this hundreds of millions of dollars worth of plane make it home, should the computer screw up.
Also airplane autopilot is not what people think of autopilot
AP will happily get you killed. You engage AP in situations where it can be used, depending on how advanced it is, it will self disengage if traffic is too close.
In short, airplane AP is closer to cruise control with lane assist than what people think of autopilot. It's not meant to navigate complex situations, it's meant to get you through your flight plan while you can concentrate on safety and procedures.
AP can perform automatic landings and it is used as such, but still, it's performed with accurate beacons and in situations where there is a control tower telling traffic what to do and where to go.
This is not happening on the road, so "autopilot" is just the wrong name - and a dangerous one at that.
I study Aerospace Engineering and we are taught that safety is by far the most important value of commercial flight. And if something goes wrong, there are incredibly expensive and thorough investigations. I think it is reckless to sell these cars with a so called autopilot, because i am sure that most of the drivers in Teslas do not really pay attention. And when something happens, the car companies will blame the drivers. In civil aviation this would never be accepted.
@@Galf506 💯 concur. As a professional pilot this Is the analogy I use to describe the limits of autopilot on aircraft to the general public when asked.
So a similar thing happened with my Dad recently. He bought a Mercedes and said he needs to find out if he can turn off the mirror Blind Spot monitoring feature. Basically it lights up on the mirror if someone is in the blindspot. He used to ride motorcycles and noticed that sometimes it doesn't pick cars and particularly motorbikes up in the blindspot.
If this safety feature that people come to rely on sometimes doesn't work. Its potentially worse than not having it at all. I guess the question we need to ask is what number of acceptable "glitch" fatilities are better than the poor driver actions on the road currently. There will be a balance point in a spreadsheet that insurance companies and goverments find acceptable.
I feel sorry for these idiots that still try to change lanes even though i can see the stupid orange light lit up in their mirror. Relying on this stupid shit is pure laziness.
He doesn't have to look at that little light in his mirror. He can still look over his shoulder, as he should. Same with using ADAS systems like Autopilot. YOU are still the driver.. It's an assist, NOT ful self driving.. FSD is still in the making and in beta, meaning, YOU are the driver!
True but you know how lazy people are they will not use it like an aid they will rely on it only.
I saw a dangerous behaviour connected to the blind spot monitoring feature. On occassion drivers accelerated when the light went on and eased the pressure on the pedal when the light went off again. When trying to pass that car that puts you in a spot where cannot pass and cannot fall back and change lane without hard breaking. That is no fun when facing oncoming traffic.
sometimes it's worse to have it, but sometimes it also saves lives. Only problem I see is that people are allowed to blame technology for their mistakes and misleading names (false advertising) for technology.
What gets me the most is that he said they got rid of the radar instead of investing in sensor fusion.
That would have been the proper fix, but would have been more expensive
Yup - just like fixing exploding gas tanks in the Ford Pinto... they'd rather hire lawyers than fix problems. And Elon is supposedly an engineer first? Nope.
Elon is a pure devil and people who think he is some genius are fools.
It's case in point capitalism. Manufacturers knowingly sell unsafe/defective products every day in the name of the bottom line. And not just auto manufacturers.
Well on your bicycle the Tesla could still Hit YOU based on this video!!!!
I was not aware that Elon Musk has Tesla FSD programmed to shut off one second before impact!!!! That is just downright dirty business!!!! That explains how they are always saying that the FSD was not on at the time of collision!!!! Elon Musk and Tesla are literally playing with people's lives for profits!!!!!! The muskies need to wake up and kick Tesla to the curb!!!!
I once confused a motorcycle with dual headlights for what I thought was a car in the distance. Thinking I had plenty of time, I started to pull out but at the last millisecond I realized it was a motorcycle. Very close! I decided I would never own a bike with dual headlights after that. And I guess I can see how AI could make this mistake using vision only.
Good suggestion, ban dual backlights on bikes, at least it will help in this two cases.
Idk any bikes with dual rear lights 🤔
@@dylancoric1194 The one I'm thinking of is the Indian Scout Bobber but IDK how many others there are TBH.
Exactly, vision only. That's why other cars do have radars. Also, other manufacturers don't have their cars driving around in a permanent beta status. No idea how and why they let Tesla get away with it. But I have a feeling those times are over.
@@user-je6vk1hr1q calm down ban monster, I have one question. What motorcycle has two headlights even remotely at the length apart cars do..... None, so maybe be better drivers for we all share responsibility on the road.
This is anecdotal, but I ride 20 miles to/from work daily in Los Angeles while lane sharing. It has become more evident to me that Tesla drivers are not paying attention. My S1000xr has 4 clearwater lights up front making me extremely visible, and I still notice more Tesla's than other cars not moving over. I can also see them either looking at their phones or playing with the touch screen as I pass. I'm not looking forward to trucks and SUVs having this technology abused.
I ride up in NorCal. I hear you on drivers not paying attention. It happens regardless of driver aids though, right? I mean, you ever watch a police chase where a cop with full lights and sirens has to go around a person because they have no idea what is happening behind them? If people can’t see that, how can you expect them to see a person on a bike!?
At least with driver aids the CAR may get to the point where it’s paying attention all the time and the CAR may move over in the lane to let us pass.
Elon was eager to release a version of self driving that would literally run stop signs if the car didn’t see anyone else at the intersection (that’s a true thing Tesla did that they thought was a good idea, and then were forced to recall it). I don’t think that’s the first company you’re going to find being considerate of your needs as another driver on the road.
Stop "lane sharing". It's dangerous and stupid. If someone else is in the lane of travel then we shouldn't be trying to squeeze past them.
I am also from the southland. LA And OC, I see more drivers move for Motorcycles to give them room. @xfallofmanx Please, It's legal and Safer. If this video doesn't tell you that, perhaps you should hang up your spurs. Getting hit from behind is deadly. Perhaps he means lane filtering. No one rides next to cars for more than a second.
@@andrews. Safety boils down to whether you are an expected and predictable element of traffic. In places where this isn't legal it is dangerous because it is unexpected and unpredictable. My experience visiting California is that this is dangerous because riders aren't competent enough to be predictable and drivers aren't competent enough to be allowed on public roads.
Agree, same thoughts
I ran into a similar, but inverted issue when riding my motorcycle at night.
I saw two headlights, close together, high up in my field of view on a narrow country road.
I interpreted it as a car far away, and continued at the same speed.
Only when the tractor was less than 150ft away did I realize I was riding at a high rate of speed at an immovable object.
I was lucky. The tractor had slowed down, my bike had anti-lock brakes, and I managed to slow, and evade the tractor in time. It did scare the shit out of me...
Should you be riding at a high rate of speed in those circumstances?
I'm convinced there is a timeline out there where 'you' do not exist . Simply because you crashed your bike into the back of a tractor on a narrow country road . In that timeline , I never got the warning from your comment , and is killed months later by doing the exact same thing. Bloody Marvelous ....you saved my life !!! ...or was it theoretical physics ???🤔
tractors are fucking dangerous and most of the times unfortunately the tractor driver has nowhere to go and/or time to make a correction they are slow very big and super heavy especially if they have an implement behind i ride motorcycles and im a small time farmer so i have both perspectives to share you my friend was very very lucky
@@claywilson6149 It's quantum entanglement :)
I had this same thing happen. I wasn't going fast, but two lights that were close together and then suddenly a giant tire in front of me.
I appreciate you not allowing the world forget the 2 motorcyclists who died because of Tesla's flaws.
That's False.
@@jeffbachmann7161 .01 credits have been added to your Tesla Account!
NHTSA concluded "auto-pilot was not engaged" for either event.
Shocking outcome... But the lie goes around the world before the truth laces it's shoes.
@@s.v.5829it turns off just before impact.
Let's not forget the other 6,000 that died from human flaws, just in the US
This is terrifying. Brilliant reporting & I was not aware Tesla had removed the radar!
Also now removing the ultrasonic sensors.
It'll be coming back. The argument against the existing radar was that the resolution wasn't sufficient and therefore vision was better. There has been some rumblings that late 2023 cars would have a high definition radar, and possibly upgrades available for older vehicles to have it as well.
Because it isn't needed.
This motorcyclist was hit by an idiot that wasn;t paying attention.
The car didn't do it. The driver did
You actually believe this bullschiff?
@@jeffbachmann7161Elon stan detected
I've always been under the assumption autopilot should be used the same as cruise control, but like cruise control for the steering. You still need to brake and steer when needed! but people treat it like a personal driver..
I don't have AutoPilot as it's extra, but AutoSteer requires input if it doesn't feel your hands on the wheel. There are ninnies that will put weights on the wheel to bypass. It states that you must pay attention when using it. I doubt that any of the drivers that hit and killed those motorcyclists were paying attention.
You would be surprised the number of people I've talked to who have never used cruise control, but they think it's like autopilot. ...Even for cars that are 10 years old. Sometimes the information just isn't there.
Mercedes’ version of this is trustworthy enough that Mercedes will assume liability for any crashes that occur. They are the first (and so far only) company to meet SAE level 3 standards (out of 6 levels of autonomous driving).
My point has been that if I can't rely on it, why do I have to pay for it? I'll stick with my brain instead. It works better than autopilot and it's free.
Well a basic autopilot on a boat or a plane just means it will hold your heading. I'm not sure where motorists got the idea that autopilot means the vehicle becomes fully autonomous and aware of its surroundings.
As a rider I've always been worried about bad drivers, but in the last few years I've been genuinely scared of the ones that think they're in a "self driving" car.
I dissagree I know what cars are equipped with these features so I can plan accordingly but I don't know what cars are going to have bad drivers
@@peanutbutterpadre1519 how do you plan if its barreling towards you from behind on a freeway at night?
Tesla is scamming people and putting public safety at risk. Elon should be in jail for promoting this:
czcams.com/video/lD6ICmMRSL8/video.html
@@iitool He probably means that he took care of his funeral arrangements with his insurance already
On a serious note though, who in the right mind trusts the features/gadgets of any vehicle that isn't their own. That's what I call a death wish. I don't trust the drivers and neither do I trust their little fancy features. The only thing I have faith in on the road is that every single day I will see some mishap that could kill me if I'm at the wrong place at the wrong time with my bike.
Long story short, be attentive and distrustful on the road.
As a 20,000+ mile user of Tesla's FSD beta software, I will tell you that you are SAFER with a Tesla on FSD than a regular goon driving the car. Tesla's Tech WILL save the lives of motorcyclists, cyclists, pedestrians, and other drivers.
As a Tesla owner, how Tesla removed radar in favor of camera systems that don't have two (for depth perception/paralax and redundancy) is beyond me.
Totally agree about the Autopilot thing. Just call it AI Assist or Cruise Control+ or something
How are you a Tesla owner and don't realize that all Tesla's have at least 2 forward facing camera's. (some have 3) Have you never washed your windshield?
Also NHTSA concluded "auto-pilot" was not engaged, for either incident. Auto-pilot, is not a pilot. It's a pilot assist feature in planes. Co-pilot (what GM calls theirs) is an actual pilot...
@@s.v.5829 It's also not uncommon for some copilots to not upgrade because a senior F/O can have more bidding flexibility than a senior captain. Furthermore, an F/O can definitely take over the controls if they feel the captain's action is unsafe.
My sister was seriously injured when she was rear ended on her motorcycle by a human driver and could have died. This is very scary to think how many Tesla’s are out there that could repeat this tragedy.
I’m surprised how many people here like yourself foolishly believe this nonsense anybody that was hit by a Tesla was not hit by a car that did it automatically they were hit by a driver
And the drivers are absolutely not paying attention at all
Or how many humans are out there that could repeat that tragedy?
One safety feature I add to my commuter bicycle is a downward-firing light to make a 'glowpool' that seems to give drivers a much better reference of where the hell I actually am.
Ground-effect lighting does indeed have a place on our streets, particularly for bikes and scooters.
bring back the under-car neons!
Another thing we bicycle commuters should think about is flashing bike lights. Imagine trying to find and judge distance to cars in the dark if all headlights/taillights switched on and off like a strobe light. Now you see me, now you don't, now you see me... Pulsing or solid lights make more sense, I think, and some countries even ban flashing bike lights.
Too bad ground effect lighting is completely illegal in most places. But I'd rather take the ticket than the ambulance.
@@unsafevelocities5687 I'm a quite attentive driver, even if with a bit of bad eyesight (glasses don't correct it all but I was cleared to drive) which mostly gives me a hard time with lights. I once almost ran over a guy on a bike in a very dark narrow road precisely because I couldn't perceive the distance to his tiny tiny blinking light. Only when my headlights shone on him, I figured out he was much much closer than I thought. Fortunately, I wasn't going too fast and my headlights reach quite further than the minimum by law (we don't have a max, as long as it isn't aimed up) and they are quite bright bixenon; if I was in my GFs car, which literally has the worst minimum road legal headlights, I would've seen him too late to be able to brake.
@@sorayaimperial I think what you say shows that rear light area is an issue too. Often bike lights are indeed absolutely tiny, even smaller than '40s and '50s cars, with LED units that have more in common with torches/flashlights than they do with vehicle taillights, e.g. there's often little or no reflector behind the light to increase its size. The only option is to make them ridiculously bright which I reckon contracts drivers' pupils when the light is flashing on to enough of a degree that drivers may be temporarily night blinded for the flashing off phase. Also, I'm not a fan of the rechargeable batteries in most lights these days because if you forget to charge them up you can't simply swap in a backup pair of AA batteries or AAA batteries (some models have extra rechargeable batteries or are AA/AAA compatible). This leads to many cyclists running really dull lights and without any surface area it fails to show up early enough.
In a situation like this where two sensors disagree, the accepted engineering norm is to default to the sensor which will give the most conservative outcome, the one which will most likely prevent equipment damage or operator injury. It is outright negligence to delete the sensor which creates the highest level of operator discomfort without considering the failure modes.
But breaking when it is not needed can be dangerous for the cars behind. I am for more sensor. If two sensor disagrre you need at least a third to decide.
@@uweengelmann3 I wish I could understand why the radar in the Tesla system was sensing overpasses. The radar in my car doesn't see overpasses.
@@thomabb The radar in your car sees the overpass but the computer is told to ignore all stationary objects (overpasses, road signs, cars on the shoulder, tunnel walls, etc). This is how all radar cruise control works in all cars because it's the nature of how radar works. The radar in your car captures a ton of data but the computer throws all of it away and only looks at objects that are moving. Your car's owners manual will specifically tell you this. This means if there's a stationary object blocking your lane radar cruise will not avoid it. The solution is LIDAR, not Musk's cameras.
@@uweengelmann3 That's called a human...
@@uweengelmann3 Here’s the way it’s done in the real world in my experience by responsible systems and people. Of the two sensors disagree the more conservative action is taken with the third sensor “the human” receiving indication and allowed to make an input.
In this case it’d be
Radar: we’re going to hit something
Visual sensors: No we’re not.
Car starts to ease into a brake and warns the driver who makes the final decision. If they fail to make one you default to braking the vehicle. In this situation no matter what happens the fault is with the operator
Radar Engineer here. Radar's can detect four variables:
1. Distance (time it takes for radar chirp to come back to the sensor after reflecting off an object)
2. Speed (phase shift of chirp to tell how fast towards or away from the sensor the object is moving)
3. Size (Radar cross section tells how much power was reflected off the object to determine how big it is)
4. Angle of arrival (time of arrival difference between receiving antennas to tell if the object is in your lane or not)
I believe radar, lidar, camera, and V2X are all necessary for accomplishing Vision Zero (eliminate all traffic fatalities and severe injuries), profits be damned.
It's not clear to me whether the radar unit that used to be used was good enough to spot that an object visible ahead is not merely close ahead but actually also (1) within a car height above the surface of the road and (2) in the path of the car. Angle from ahead has two dimensions: left-right and up-down. Doesn't the antenna (if single -- it could be multiple) have to scan, either physically or virtually, to be able to discern that?
I'm wondering why the visual system doesn't have stereoscopic vision, i.e. two separated cameras, perhaps even three in a triangle. With stereoscopic vision and sufficiently speedy processing, being unable to discern where motorcycle tail lights are would become a non issue.
Lidar, the very expensive thing, wouldn't be an absolute must if this could be ironed out.
Radar has one advantage over cameras. They work in a fog!
Otherwise, cameras are enough, and can be much better than human eyes.
It's just ignorant to belive otherwise!
Vision Zero is impossible, there will always be idiots not looking before crossing the path of others or from behind obstacles, there will be even more when they're taught walking on roads is safe, and I won't shed a tear for any of them.
Great video! (as usual)
A couple important notes regarding cameras and radars:
- The are modern radar sensors which are capable of imaging, so it’s not just a depth sensor.
- There are modern cameras capable of depth measurement, stereo cameras, for example, work a lot like human eyesight (which is of course 3D)
So, further evidence that Elon's just a cheap bastard, then.
But it’s not gonna be as accurate as radar using AI imaging
I work in industries that use various scanners, sensors, and vision systems. Lighting, distance, and speed play a huge role in choosing the right one(s). It's hard to imagine relying solely on cameras when other technologies are nearly full-proof when used correctly in the right circumstances. Why Tesla doesn't use complementary sensors is a mystery unless you consider the added costs. Thanks to FortNine for creating this awareness for other riders.
Other technologies aren't "nearly fool proof" when there isn't a single other car on the road with close to tesla's level of self-driving. It's funny to see armchair engineers say that you need lidar when the reality of the industry is that the only and most advanced player is not using it. If lidar is so great were are all the other car makers self driving solutions? Not on the road, that is for sure.
@@EdwardKerplumplin I don't mean other technologies to replace Tesla's cameras/vision systems but used in conjunction as an aid and/or backup. Also, I wasn't referring to lidar to compliment the camera/vision system, although some car makers are using both and possibly radar too. I think Tesla's vision-only path is a mistake.
@@EdwardKerplumplin Uh... waymo and cruise have plenty of cars on the road. Many of these cars are actually self-driving: carrying passengers with no safety driver. You should diversify your information sources beyond Tesla PR releases and Musk tweets, he is basically lying about most things to do with his business interests.
@@Yura135 Except Waymo does have a safety driver, lol. When the autopilot needs to be taken over it's a seamless transition to a remote human driver. So... no, you are completely wrong.
It's hard to imagine? Well... tesla self driving is the most advanced you can buy, and they are using it. On the other hand you have a scare-tactic click bait article about 2 incidents that we don't even know if the drivers were using self driving or not.
So .... yeah. I guess it's hard for me to imagine people being swayed by complete conjecture, but here you are.
I was in my car recently that has adaptive cruise and it has never missed a motorcycle but then it did. I realized why it missed it quickly and I took control and slowed down. The bike was riding near the road line making it just outside the sight line of the car. The training we had as riders to ride to the side for oil and escape paths caused the car to not see the bike. This has made me realize I should ride a little closer to the center than I used to in the past.
This is helpful info, Mat. Could you share it with Tesla? Their engineers may not realize what's going on.
@@CyborgNinja7 *They don't care. No LIDAR to integrate into the cars so their job is over.*
I did my exam not too long ago, and I was actually taught to ride slightly left of the centre line - preferably on the position where the driver of a car would be located - to be more visible and command more presence.
Guess the drivers are now more dangerous than the road...
Could also just use Cruise Control Classic and you don't have to waste time wondering if your vehicle is going to react. You already know that it won't so you can react earlier. I've got adaptive cruise on my truck and after a few attempts to get used to it I went back to manual cruise.
interesting, it thought the mc was in the other lane.
Another rider’s life was taken by a Tesla on autopilot in Washington on April 19, 2024. It happened during the day on Route 522. RIP Jeffrey Nissen
I am a Tesla Model 3 owner and I found your video to be pretty much right on the money when it comes to decisions made by Musk/Tesla. There are decisions made that effect safety that are solely financially based. At least, it seems that way from this owner's perspective. However, the most critical part of driving is, as with any other car, the driver. A properly functioning car of any type has never, in and of itself, killed anyone. Drivers kill people, cars don't.
If there ever comes a time when a vehicle is marketed and sold as being completely autonomous, then a vehicle can be held responsible for an accident. Personally, I hope complete autonomy never happens.
Agree. The issue is not what's in front of the car, it's what's between the steering wheel and the seat.
The problem with labeling it as "autopilot" is to most people it implies they don't need to worry about driving. The car will just take care of itself. In airplanes however a good pilot knows how to use autopilot, what it's weaknesses are, and when to not rely on it. Also, any good pilot will approach a tool like this with a "what if it fails" mindset. Not in a paralyzing fear, but a preparedness sense. I took this mindset into every vehicle I drive. It's a good way to stay safe.
That's the issue. The pilots specifically spend hours learning and training on how to take over from the Autopilot in case of emergency in a stressful situation. This constant comparison of Tesla "Autopilot" to Autopilot in aviation is nothing more than an intentional distraction and desire to seed confusion and excuse Tesla marketing shenanigans when failure happens.
Very well said
The bigger problem is any moron can pass a driver's test and get a license for $30. Every day I commute to work and every day some utter retard has crashed into the car in front of him because he was busy stuffing a cheeseburger in his face, playing on her phone, or some other retardation. We need to do what Germany does, $4000 for a license with a mandatory 8 hour first aid course, and you damn well better treat driving with respect for yourself and the other drivers on the road and give it the seriousness it deserves. I've been driving 30 years and never once even come close to an accident because I drive defensively and steer clear of obvious idiots on the road. Maybe I'm old and bitter, but when I see a biker accident, all I can say is they were asking for it. No one forced them to zip around the road on a two wheel tin can surrounded on all sides by 4000lb wrecking balls.
I was nearly rear ended while sitting stationary at a red light on my bike about a year ago. It was a Tesla. I heard the sudden panic brake and the Tesla came to a stop about 15 feet behind me. The 'driver' told me that they were on autopilot and that they intervened to panic stop. This means that the Tesla did not notice either me or the actual intersection that it was approaching. I had just changed the handlebars on that bike earlier in the day and hadn't yet installed the mirrors so I was oblivious to the car hurling towards me at 80 km/h from the rear. Luckily the driver was half paying attention because I likely would've been killed.
you hadn't installed the mirrors? not too bright are you? lucky escape anyway.
I constantly sit at lights with my bike in gear ready to go because I've had too many close calls. Glad you made it out unscathed!
@@cmckx144 Same for me. And with my bike angled towards the side of the car in front of me. I don't trust anyone on the road to see me, ever. Because they often don't, and all it takes is one.
@@roadwarrior8560 No need to victim blame here.
stop to the side, there's a chance the car will miss you if they fail to stop, and even if you're hit, you at least won't be the middle of a sandwich
As an engineer and someone who has been in the tech industry for decades, I enjoyed this vid. I’ve been thinking for ages that Tesla autopilot will ultimately be the end of the company due to liability lawsuits. The msm certainly hasn’t highlighted these recent motorcycle deaths...
The 1 sec before impact is not enough to make a decision, so Tesla would eventually be involved in a class action
Nah, meet the US auto lobby
Elon will just buy himself out of trouble. Thats the saddest thing.
@@thenasadude6878 Human reaction time is less than a second. We are taught in driving school to calculate reaction time as one second
@@jatoxo yes 1 second to make a decision and press the brake pedal or whatever other action is necessary. Which means that at the end of that second, the car would still be going essentially at the same speed and direction because you have just initiated the correction. 1 sec is not enough time
You make some seriously solid content. Keep up the strong work.
Using words like "suspected" and "guess" isn't solid work. It's equal to low-quality tabloid BS, at best.
@@WolfHeathen thanks. I guess my masters degree in science and years of riding bikes left me incapable of analyzing work to the same degree as you. I guess you are going to make a cited video that debunks this soon right?
You can really feel the sympathy and sadness behind his face
Stay safe, fellow riders
Who? Elon's? I only see cold fiscal, robotic AUTOPILOT behind the BLACK shades.
@@7000fps No the other guy.
Automated systems in aircraft are supplementary to the pilot in command, or driver of the vehicle in this instance. Nothing will ever be a true "auto-pilot" until vehicles are operating in a completely closed system without unknowns. In other words, never.
Telsa should only be listing these systems as assistants, and not calling them "auto-pilot", because they don't fulfil the role of the pilot/driver automatically. I'm retiring from British Aerospace Engineering in the coming years and amongst my colleagues we all need facial reconstruction by virtue of the amount of facial carnage cringe induced every time we hear someone say their Tesla has "auto-pilot".
Even trains aren't completely safe when using automated systems, and they have a one track mind.
That was my thought too. The person in control is ultimately who is responsible for the operation of the vehicle. Whether it’s a scooter or a 747 it’s all the same. If tesla wishes to stick to the “pilot” theme maybe they could call it Co-pilot or something idk, but it needs to change
@@kuiper921 👍🏻
The 747 and every other airliner has an autopilot system. Elon Musk said in a statement when Autopilot was released in Teslas that it is an autopilot like in a plane. If a pilot has a plane on autopilot, they cannot fall asleep and cannot leave the cockpit. The autopilot flies; the pilot's workload is reduced but they are still expected to monitor things and intervene if necessary. I don't understand why if pilots are not supposed to sleep when a plane is on autopilot people think Tesla's autopilot is any different.
@@jeremytessier5316 Have you met people?
@@jeremytessier5316 People are naive I'm afraid. When you incorporate that with unrealistic expectations we end up in the world we are seeing. The vast majority of people don't even understand the inner workings of the phone in their hand, much less a complex system like driving assist, and the average layman has no hope of understanding an aircraft's systems; more importantly their limitations.
If we look at how easily people voluntarily open themselves up to fraud and scams with their computers or phones it makes sense why they "think" an auto-pilot function in their car means they need not pay attention beyond activating it. They have no understanding of the tech they use, and it has rapidly advanced beyond what they can understand. In lieu of an understanding they project their own "fantasies" as to what the system is capable of.
Think of mankind millennia ago when we didn't understand thunder and lightning, so we assumed it was the gods wreaking havoc upon the world! The majority of people are still doing the same thing, except now they're assuming a system with the words "auto-pilot" associated with it actually means it 100% drives the car for them. I'd laugh at the situation if it didn't have such deadly consequences.
I was driving past doing Uber shortly after the accident in Utah occurred. I saw the body, covered by a blanket, in the middle of the road. I saw a woman sitting against the median, absolutely distraught, realizing she just killed someone. Watching this video brought back a flood of memories.
There's so much heart, brain and honesty behind this; the conclusion almost made me cry. Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us.
He cut off the highway crash data at Q1 2021... At no point in 2022 did Autopilot come close to humans, ending the year with 50% average. NHTSA concluded "auto-pilot was not engaged" in at least 1 of these incidents. It's been 2 years without radar and as a Tesla driver, I'm more confident then ever experiencing FSD beta daily.
Nobody even mentions the 6 people Tesla saved from accelerating off a cliff by determining the driver put the car in the wrong gear and hit the accelerator.
Aaaaah a measured, researched and responsible response to an emotive argument. Who else but fortnine.
Rest in peace to both of the men that lost their lives while doing what they love…
And the lady with the Vulcan.
What I’d like to know is what were the drivers doing in these incidents? I hope they were held accountable and I hope the family has taken Tesla to court, I know it won’t replace their family member but it will stop it from happening to someone else.
it will be the driver of the car that hit the motorbikes that will be taken to court. at the end of the day, autopilot is a tool for a driver to use but still the driver needs to drive the car, pa attention to whats going on around them and stop the car if the computer gets it wrong.
the car driver can then go after Tesla and say its autopilot is advertised wrong but i am sure the Tesla lawyers have that covered so its till down to the car driver to not hit anything.
my brother has a volvo v90 over here in Scotland, it has pilot assit, it can detect the car in front and slow itself down and drive staying in its lane and to the set speed of the cruise control, but the driver needs to tell it what to do, tell the tool in the car what to do. My brother likes it for long drives, but i dont, i just use the cruise control when i borrow the car. i also ride a motorbike, it has very little computer tech on it, only ABS, but at least i know if i have an accident, its my own fault, not the tech going wrong. so i do my best to improve my driving and riding skills to avoid an accident in first place. too many people drive without that mentality, they would rather have an accident and sort it out after than train more to avoid an accident in first place.
@@douglasreid699 whilst that is true, the families of those killed can also take Tesla to court afterwards as their cars shouldnt be allowed on the road if such a feature doesnt have safety interlocks built into it.
@@dodgy_jammer281
It depends on the terms and conditions of using the autopilot of Tesla.
If in those conditions it says anything about the driver still maintaining control of the vehicle and being responsible for the vehicle while using the autopilot tool, Tesla is scot free of liability.
@@douglasreid699 Yeah thats a good point, its just a tad bit daunting if they untouchable. The amount of drivers ive seen that sit on their phone as well when driving is insane, pair that with an autopilot that doesnt detect motorbikes and youre just asking for an accident.
We're working on a reflective design to make people more visible to computer vision software - seeing this video is hugely inspiring, we'll have to start working on a motorcycle specific pattern soon!
Adding brake/tail lights and retroreflectives to the back of jackets or helmets is a good first step. These keep the 'rider' in the equation, especially with regards to AI driving aids.
I wear a Class 2 reflective safety vest over my motorcycle jacket when I ride at night. I hope that helps Teslas and people notice.
My Tesla Model Y shows every motorcycle that I'm near. Whether in front or to the side.
This past Sunday while in stop and go traffic in the middle lane at least 30 motorcycles in a group were lane splitting on both sides of me.
The Tesla screen showed every one of them
@@jeffbachmann7161 doesn't mean it will always see them and the fact that it was day time probably makes it a lot easier for your tesla to see objects.
The way he phrased that "He's selling future features to customers today. But today two motorcyclists are dead." Hit very hard..
But a "future" thing will always just be "future" until someone actually tries. Tesla is among those who actually tried. The (not-FSD) system likely causing these 2 collisions is old and dumb, but should become orders of magnitude smarter once everything is under one system.
Autopilot is not yet ready for unsupervised operation, but is steadily making progress in that direction, much like the 16 year old that recently decided to get a learner's permit instead of deciding that they will never be able to drive.
as a software engineer, I really appreciate the description given about what AP is actually doing, not in terms of accuracy but in terms realism, rather than describing it as some magical black box savior, I also wish they weren't allowed to use any wording or phrasing that implied the feature had anything to do with the car being capable of driving itself without any user intervention, and also also, wish the general public viewed self-driving vehicles in general the same way we tend to discuss commercial nuclear fusion power plants, always 5-10 years away with numerous challenges currently to overcome, I don't expect to see 'real' self-driving vehicles widely commercially available in the 2020's at least, I would argue there are more problems that need solved than what any individual car manufacturer can accomplish, 'real' self-driving vehicles will likely require a corresponding paradigm shift in infrastructure design and engineering
However with such a flawed drivers aid, it can make sitting behind the wheel even more nerve wracking.
Will it correct, will it see that fire truck, that construction barrier, that cone, that motorcycle.... seems like an alert driver in these incidents is like playing russian roulette with the new car toy.
But don't you think forward scanning lidar would have prevented those? I mean, a simple low Res cheap forward-scanning lidar fitted at the front of the bonnet doesn't even need to be visible.
The way it would work is not as part of the AI but as a separate "backseat driver" that warns the AI when it spots something in the vicinity, so that the AI can do a double check at a deeper more thorough level. This would prevent those random breaking events out of nowhere.
What's his problem with that?
I think when you incorporate lidar and premapping there is no need for a shift in infrastructure design but that's just me
@@bob15479 and you are correct. Lidar can simply be a fail-safe backseat driver that alerts the driver AI when it notices an anomaly, so the AI can reassess its interpretation of the scene more computationally intensely at a deeper level.
A forward scanning, low resolution, low power, cheap lidar could be fitted discreetly in the front of the car inside the headlights, you wouldn't even notice it, it doesn't have to be that expensive panoramic high resolution power hungry stupid beacon on top of the car.
Somebody tell Elon or I will. He can thank me later, and pay me later too, for coming up with a solution his best highly paid engineers failed to come up with.
as the systems engineer myself I don't think we'll ever have self-driving cars simply because of the liability issue. someone has to be responsible when an accident occurs and if it's an autopilot well then no one is responsible and no one can be held accountable and the behavior can continue to occur.
I also think artificial intelligence is wildly overrated I've seen how it works and I'm not very impressed and I know how it works and I'm not very impressed.
Hi Ryan, I've been away, almost all the way but medical science brought me back and I'm convalescing. I've missed your videos and now watching all I've missed. Excellent analysis of a serious and deadly problem, thank you for the time it took me away from my physical and mental woes.
Wishing you a full recovery.
When code breaks we'll call it a fatal error. In this case the code didn't break but it was far more literally fatal.
I work in a machine shop running a 5-axis mill to make medical grade implants. For all the money they put into this amazing machine, it still has an error tolerance. The programs made on hypermill (another expensive piece of software) can have problems. And this is on a precision machine that, for all intents and purposes, runs in a completely controlled environment. Imagining a machine that has to navigate a constantly changing outside world in unknown and dynamic conditions? It's not a surprise to me that there are times when the Autopilot is more dangerous than a person driving. If anything, I'm surprised there haven't been more problems like this. I love machines, I love automation, I do not trust vehicles to drive themselves on the road with people.
I'am a tool and die guy. I love our programmable mills and lathes, but like you said they sometimes screw up. Now 99 times out of a 100 its user error. While we do trust our lives on machines often. Driving is so dynamic that we are not quite ready.
Look into the recent documentaries made about the US NHTSA's investigation into drivers killed while driving Teslas on autopilot.
@@nyannyan123456 in a sense, all of these crashes were also user error as much as machine error.
This is the problem with relying on machines too much, even if the machine is safer. Because you let your guard down.
Every driver is told that auto pilot is named after the way planes fly. Yes, aircraft have auto pilot, but they still require a pilot to watch the plane and make certain moves. Its not a foolproof no attention needed mode.
But humans are as flawed as machines, and they think its so cool how much the computer can do, and they let their guard down when they see the machine working seemingly flawless for a certain amount of time.
Its the same flaw where people think they are special, so they can do this reckless act but nothing will ever happen.
Its like people saying they dont need a fire alarm system because their house has never burned down before.
I forget exactly the topic, but I literally had a customer at the airport say some safety feature wasnt needed because they never needed it before :/
Humans are stupid.
The deaths of those 2 motorcyclists should be on the driver, but I agree that by this point, Musk is stupidly too stubborn sticking to the auto pilot monicker because humans are stupid and instead of working around that, he just says its the stupid peoples fault and its their problem that they get confused by using the laymens vision of what auto pilot is.
People discounting the ability of computer ai to do this sort of task often seem to ignore the incredibly stupid things people do every single day. While both the ai and humans are capable of doing incredibly stupid things, the ai has the benefit of learning from every version of itself out there. These ai will rapidly become far safer than even the best human drivers simply because they will have the equivalent of centuries of experience behind the wheel and will never suffer from fatigue or be distracted.
Chad how old are you ?
You sound about 75 !
The one downside to LiDAR is low reliability in inclement weather, but redundant systems are almost always a better/safer answer.
Unfortunately lidar cannot read or discern colour. regular auto-pilot is by far and a away no where near Teslas FSD beta. From what I understand they are changing the way it looks as the world, not just "labelling" but also looking at all objects as ...well...objects to avoid or not.
Yes, but that's the case with all the other methods as well.
LiDAR arrays are huge, heavy and expensive. They are also aerodynamically terrible. We need more efficiency vehicles which use less energy to get down the road. If every vehicle had one of those lidar arrays it would required ~10-15% more energy to get down the road. On average mirrors cost us 3% and they should have been deleted years ago (in favor of near body cameras). The environmental impact of all this extra energy use is killing people and commitment to lidar would kill tens of thousands per year.
How about...drive the car yourself. This whole auto pilot idea is crazy. Set aside all the obvious dangers it is allowing the govt to control where and when as well as how far you drive. Should uou fall behind on your bills the govt then has the power to stop you from moving freely in your car since they control the satellites that control your movement. Conspiracy theory??? Just wait and see.
@@ccibinel Lidar can, and is, made very small as well. Many current smartphones and tablets have lidar built into them and all you see is a small extra camera lens. These are short range, but there are lidar units for consumer drones that have a much longer reach and are small. There are a lot of these; picking one at random, the Emesent Hovermap has a mass of less than 2 kg and a range of 100 meters. There are others with longer ranges, but the point is that Lidar does not need to be large, ugly, or even visible, and this is proved by where it is currently implemented in every-day hand-held consumer technology, as well as more specialty products that are still small consumer grade products.
Tesla should be held responcible for their actions.
Um, where were these two auto Tesla drivers' =attentions= during these crashes? They sure as hell weren't on the road ahead of them. Blame the drivers with a side of blame for Tesla, too. Part of the sale of a Tesla includes a safety review of the FSD. From what I understand, you can't buy one without having gone through that and signing the paper proving it.
literally the only major 'vehicle' reporter to actually say this and commit to explaining it properly. Pretending albedo is not a factor, that they don't need completely overlapping cameras for stereovision, it's pretty criminal in my opinion.
The wiggle he mentions at the end of the video is something I've started doing at night in general. When I slow down to make a right turn into my driveway at night, many times I've almost been rear ended. To help make it more obvious, I'll wiggle while I slow down and swing to the outside some. This is to be more noticeable to humans but I imagine it should help with AI as well.
I wiggle on long straights occasionally to keep drivers from fixating on me. I've been pulled over for it because cops who have a habit of zooming up on you (I thought they weren't paying attention and about to hit me) thought I was drunk. It's a catch 22. I've been lucky they let me go without trying to come up with some story that I'm impared somehow but I haven't run into one of those 'drug whisperers' yet. I'm not excited to deal with one of those idiots who think they're smarter than blood tests yet and ruin people's lives over their faulty testing and reasoning.
(Read: For those safety sams and concern karens: I'm 100% against DUI/DWI and operate my vehicles 100% stone cold sober. Some states have magical police with faulty training that think they can tell if someone is under the influence better than any medical test that can prove otherwise. Go search for DRE (drug recognition expert) false arrest and how you have to pay to prove you're innocent and deal with possibly losing your job over it.)
I also used to flash my brake lights a bunch of times before actually braking as well, for similar reasons where I was concerned I might be rear ended. Lots of taps just enough to engage the light but not my brakes, then brake.
If that car approaching from behind is a pig, you will be arrested and jailed for DUI, regardless of your condition or what you say, it is a no win situation, in the USSA.
Funny, I've done the same on my road bikes forever.
yes and the wiggle at intersections to, do it WHEN EVER you think there's slightest chance SOMEONE, MAY miss you. Get into the habit of doing the GP tire warming exercise when approaching inteersections, IT WORKS, you look dumb but hats the point THEY LOOKED 😁😁😁😁
As someone who works as a developer in automated driving for a very large automobile supplier in Europe, I can say that Teslas decision to abandon radar has been a shock. As many others mentioned redundancy, I too can only affirm the absolute need for reliable sensor fusion in form of graph algorithms and similar, since the margin of error tolerance is just so small.
This is a thought I had almost immediately. When he mentioned the lights appearing as a distant car, I thought "But what about ultrasonics, radar, lidar?!"... Then to see that they've intentionally omitted any other sensory information just... 🤯
A developer in a competing supplier ?
Years behind Tesla ?
Facing bankruptcy?
@@maxflight777 can you name a European automobile supplier which faces bankruptcy?
@@maxflight777 If they are years behind killing motorcyclists that doesn't sound so bad
I mean Elon said that he hates lidar before, so abandoning the whole thing is predictable,
I don't know why he thought that a tool must work like a human, ...it means that computer should be very slow at calculating math
“Everyone running on Lidar is doomed” Citation needed
We can manage driving with too low resolution cameras on a pivot, from a single location within a vehicle, some people make do with only one... Somehow we can do it. I have confidence that it is a solvable problem. Question is, when* 3rd party Chinese aftermarket Lidar hits the market, will you trust millions of invisible potentially blinding, poorly calibrated lasers to be flashing in your face constantly? We need passive systems, because the invisible light noise and potential danger will mount with more lidar systems on the road. (I trust the current big companies to use quality Lidar that has been properly tested to be safe, but don't trust aftermarket)
The first time I almost got ran off the road by a Tesla driver was so terrifying I will never look at a Tesla the same again. The lady driving over took my lane and I had to swerve over to the next lane to avoid death. She had no idea it even happened. I forced her to pull over and told her what happened. People really think they can fully trust Tesla and be asleep behind the wheel. It's terrifying
I absolutely love that you added your sources to the end of the video!
hopefully more people follow your lead, it's way harder to BS when you have to cite your sources
I love that he cited the sources but what if the sources are bullshit?
AI is so often used as the solution to all problems when most people who shill it dont understand its limitations.
And when they do, they don't always explain it well to the folks who could not know what questions to ask. A little bit of skepticism about any claims is a good idea especially when the claimant's bottom line is the thing most at stake for them.
These are just current limitations
AI is the most overrated and poorly labeled technology ever it definitely isn't intelligence
@@oxfordbambooshootify yes, but the example here is that Tesla are selling it as though it doesn't have these limitations.
They're also not the only ones. "AI" is used so much as a buzzword it actually hides what it truly means in reality.
@Patrick O'Brien Great question . It is a solution to problem's us humans have again and again have created, so that a large Wall street Corp can solve and profit. It's like creating a pandemic then profiting off a company that you are a major shareholder in that has a so called cure.
This channel has such an underrated production.
Pure gold
Your content is just amazing. I teach algorithmic ethics and will be using this in class.
short answer: yes
Long answer: also yes
Long answer: also yes
really is short
I'm always paying attention behind me when riding either of my bikes or my car. In my opinion you can still get rear ended by both AI and people. Years ago my father told me, you don't just have to drive for yourself. You have to drive for everyone else too.
Wow was taught like that exact quote. Once while carpooling home from work it quite possibly saved up to four lives; our next shift the coworker who would've hit a semi and/or SUV with his little sports car initially apologized for the close call, then thanked me long and hard upon hearing I saw it coming and began making room when he was a mile away, also congratulated him on regaining control and missing the pole after sliding through that was impressive. Seen those headlights coming up way too fast on the semi in the left lane while I'm taking up the right so all lanes blocked, took my foot off the gas thinking it'd make a decent gap or maybe even be enough room for the semi to get over. But nope dude was coming in too hot or over steered so lost control threading the needle through a small space, maybe I should've breaked too, that might've got his attention or given enough room for him to have swerved sooner, less drastic maneuver required maybe wouldn't have slid out then idk. I'm just glad everything worked out in the end, a valuable lesson was learned by that man when I taught him the quote that saved his life "you're not driving for you, you're driving for everyone else"
Ya I’m always paying attention, I’m a defensive driver, like my dad says “you have to pay attention to everyone else” drive like you aren’t seen and ya same in the car
Great video gentlemen. Well said, well illustrated, documented. Thank you.
Just remember, for every 2 deaths, there's probably hundreds of near misses that we never hear about.
just remember for every 2 deaths Rian claims is caused by tesla autopilot, there are still 40,000 deaths per year caused by everyone else. really makes you think
This is a really well made video that doesn’t apply to just motorcycle riders, but people who drive on the road in general.
The video might be well made, but it's full of factual errors and misleading statements.
@@HM-hu4hu Name 3.
@@hititwithit 1. Claims that using the term "Autopilot" was banned in Germany, but the courts overturned that in APRIL, so Tesla can still call it Autopilot there
2. Lying about Autopilot being involved in the crashes (just claims it was, never proves that it was)
3. Lying about Autopilot being the same as FSD. Even if Autopilot was involved in these crashes, it is irrelevant to FSD because current Autopilot is just advanced cruise control.
4. Showing a crash on Autopilot WITH radar, ignoring that radar has been removed, and FSD doesn't use radar at all (so contradicting the claim that radar would prevent these crashes)
5. Claims that data from radar and camera are equally reliable, when Tesla's own data shows that they aren't
6. Promotes Lidar, which has huge limitations, is a huge error source, and requires you to premap EVERYWHERE down to the tiniest detail
7. Claims that Tesla is SELLING Autopilot, when it is in fact included with every single vehicle
8. Claims that Autopilot is programmed to shut down 1 second before impact, when the fact is that it ALWAYS includes the last few seconds before impact when accidents occur
Need more?
Basicall, he's lying to viewers and misleading them, making claims based on the lie that current Autopilot and FSD are the same.
@@hititwithit You became awfully quiet. Do you have any questions about my list?
@@HM-hu4hu 1. Autopilot *was* banned in Germany, since 2020. That ban was overruled two weeks before the release of this video. This could be sloppy, or the video might've been made just before the verdict. Even then, the use of the term 'Autopilot' was in fact banned for 2 years.
2. Autopilot had been used in and right before multiple Tesla crashes. So much so, in fact, Wikipedia has a section dedicated to it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Notable_crashes
3. I haven't heard Autopilot being equated to FSD in this video. Can you provide a timestamp?
4. I'm not sure what your point is here. Radar might have prevented these crashes, because it would have detected the other vehicle's proximity.
5. Nobody claims camera and radar are equally reliable. They don't have to be to complement each other.
6. Lidar doesn't require premapping, and is not any more (generally less, in fact) an error source than camera. It also greatly depends on your sensor fusion pipeline. There's a reason all other manufacturers that are trying to get to level 5 self driving do use Lidar. And before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I have a degree in AI and work at a company that is using both camera and Lidar data for automated detection on roads.
7. You can sell something without having people pay separately for it. I can sell you a computer with a GPU without you paying a separate amount for that GPU. Replace 'selling' with 'marketing' and it might be more clear.
8. The NHTSA literally found Autopilot has disengaged seconds before multiple crashes: www.motortrend.com/news/nhtsa-tesla-autopilot-investigation-shutoff-crash/
It's not known why this happened, but it has. At the very least, it's extremely coincidental, if not suspicious.
So no, he's not lying to viewers. He might not be absolutely correct, but most points are valid, and not remotely as malignant as you seem to make them out to be.
Driving aids in cars are dangerous in general, as it allows people not to pay attention. Things like lane-assist and adaptive cruise control mean that people start doing other things, as they feel like the car is doing all the work for them.
The biggest problem with AutoPilot is that is extremely incomplete in its data-set and cannot recognise enough different things to act properly. It cannot see far enough ahead or to the side to anticipate, so it cannot prevent anything from happening, just react to it and hope it reacts in time.
EDIT:
Two examples from Europe, where driving aids were a problem:
- In Belgium a guy drove for 25 km's (16ish miles) while unconscious because his lane assist and adaptive cruise control kept him on the road, but the sensors to see if he was still alert failed. Even worse, it turns out some systems stop the car in the lane, on a highway. That is lethal. This is a choice by the manufacturer.
- A car crashed and the passenger was killed because the driver was speeding and swerving through traffic, until at one point lane assist intervened with a sudden lane change, the driver fought it and crashed the car. The passenger was his girlfriend.
These systems are far from complete and need a lot more time on the road with a paid employee from the manufacturer present at all times to take control and assess the performance of the system.
I want Adaptive Cruise control in my car, it'll make road trips so much easier
@Yvolve, couldn't agree with you more. I believe that every one of these "innovations" is just a distraction or teaching reliance on techbology that will inevitably fail. Will it fail in a catastrophic situation? Not usually, but also not never.
Yeah one driver saw someone driving while talking on the phone and that shocked him good enough for him to drop his razor into his cereal bowl
just a gag lol
yep. "autopilot" relies on cameras and is very incomplete. and unfortunately people trust it WAY too much.
when I drive by Tesla's on the highway I have made it a game to guess whether the driver is paying attention or not. it's not uncommon to find them watching a video on their phone, or staring at their lap as they fiddle with their phone.
if there is a car that encourages inattentiveness, and overconfidence in the ability of "average" systems to actually be safe, Tesla is it.
other vehicles have similar systems, but they aren't "the trendy thing" so they aren't as often abused.
@@R.J._Lewis ngl having adaptive cruise control is a blessing for someone like me with mild sciatica. Plus on long journeys it gives me a game to play where I stick it at 80kph then try to keep the fuel economy computer as high as it can go
I almost got hit by one in traffic last night in Tampa. The Tesla was about a foot from my leg while changing lanes. It’s the scariest I’ve been and it haunts me now know I could be run over by someone relying on an inaccurate computer.
This was a good video and I agree with your recommendations, except you forgot one thing: drivers have a responsibility to drive.
Thank you Ryan, and thanks to your team. As a motorcycle rider, I find this both sad and scary to watch - but it is important and you’re getting the information out quickly to a wide audience. We love your humor and simplistic explanations of complex motorcycle matters, but these serious and informed topics are also highly valuable to us riders. Keep up the outstanding work.
Insane thing that happened this week - Teslas equipped with radar had them disabled in a software update for Tesla Vision only.
You can avoid going insane by just driving your car yourself as people did for the last 130 years or hire a chauffeur.
They'll probably charge you a monthly subscription to re-enable it. monetize monetize monetize. You own nothing.
@@heiner71 yes, totally relevant comment in the context of the video specifically talking about the removal of radar in favor of vision only👍, good work
That should be illegal, you paid for something that now you can't use.
@@Zydine The video is specifically talking about a technologic feature and how its use could be killing people, the video specifically describes how Autopilot disables 1sec before impact and suggests that the manslaughter charge would be for the driver. And also it was very specifically mentioned that its marketing and name makes people assume it is more competent than it really is.
This is one of the very best videos highlighting the dangers of computer vision without radar/lidar imposes on other traffic.
“It’s something… but I wish I had more” man that was sincere 😢
I suspect that the trend for having twin rear lights built into the indicators, thus presenting the image of a big thing far away is a contributory factor. Much like the problem with twin headlights side by side as opposed to over and under. Both create well documented confusion for other road users.
That's the issue with driving a car via webcam. We need legislation requiring lidar.
Tesla's camera based navigation is a known issue, and they only use it because it's cheap.
Yeah dual head or tail lights probably aren't a good idea....As far as these accidents go though.... The reason we ride defensively is precisely because drivers make mistakes like this all the time. I'm always looking who's coming up behind me. Many, many times I've sped up, changed lanes or flashed my brake lights to draw attention to myself as a car approached from my rear.
I've also seen plenty of times where a cruiser bike guy is clicking along on the highway at 65mph with a line of pissed off car drivers tailgating them they were apparently unaware of cuz they never bothered to look behind them.
The good news here is Tesla can probably write a don't runover the Cruiser bike guy algorithm a lot sooner than we can get cruiser bike guys to pay attention to what's behind them.
@@derp195 And LIDAR is also a flawed technology, with known issues. Legislation should not be used to give the company that owns the patent, a monopoly, which is what would happen with LIDAR. The correct use of legislation is setting the standards for the use of the technology. And at the current state of development both Tesla and LIDAR fail,.
@@yziib3578 You get it. Personally I think that until ALL vehicles on the road are automated, then none should be driving on "auto-pilot". With a centralised control system that is aware of every vehicle position the problems with vehicle collisions are reduced to almost zero; edge cases ignored. The only collisions at that point would be foreign objects.
When human lives are involved we need the highest level of safety possible and that can only be achieved in a closed system. With some cars being operated by humans, and other cars operating as isolated automatons, we're looking at a recipe for disaster.
But then again, there are also cars like the Porsche Taycan, that use a big single rear light, something that could be mistaken for a motorcycle with a single rear light as well.
The last part where you (the rider) has to take action is a key takeaway here. As a motorcyclist, you always gotta protect yourself. Yes it sucks. Yes, it shouldn't be like this. Yes, a lot of the time the other party is to blame. But in all cases, you suffer the most. Which is more important, your life or your "rightness"?
I agree with you. That is why I kinda wished Ryan would have said: 'If you see something approach fast in your rear view mirror, move a lane or two over.' Rather than what he actually said: 'Go ahead and swerve over your lane to make yourself visible and potentially crash due to the oil and stuff on the road.' But, take all the advice you can get, and sort it out to what works for you. Great video once again😁😁👍
To be honest, I hate motorway driving. It is boring, and most of all stressful for two reasons. The wind blasting my helmet and poor neck back, and the possibility of other drivers trying to kill you. I'd rather stick behind trucks going 93km/h (less wind and barely any need to mingle in traffic) then ride 110km/h and get sideswiped/cut off by a muppet switching lanes without checking his mirrors.🤗😅
That's why we need to put Proximity mine on motorcycles, so everyone can lose.
You said it brother…
@@zhangbill1194 i like that idea
Rightness you ignoramus fool. Tell me you don't ride without telling me you don't ride. Gtfo
Holy cow the quality of the footage you take is incredible!
All those roadside captchas are us training AI how to identify objects. Notice there are never any people in those pics?
"Spot the human" is not on their radar.
In my opinion, twin headlights are as dangerous as twin taillights. They both potentially give the impression that it's a car far away to the quick-glancing inattentive driver...
Literally a video by FortNine on this.
Agree. Heavy (44 ton semi) truck driver here. Some extra frontfaced ledlights that are lower placed and on the outer side are so bright I only notice the actual headlight upclose and meanwhile it gives the impression of a small car ( aygo or panda or such). Got enough experience to know it could be frikking anything by now. Dogs dressed up like Christmas trees or bicycles and such...
As always, well thought out. I especially appreciate always trying to offer solutions to a problem that exists today. Fixing things at Tesla, or any major company, takes time which leaves the onus, today, on drivers and riders.
Tesla doesn't want to be fixed, they've been moving in the wrong direction for years and Musk doesn't care about the safety of the products that he's selling. That incident with the kids in that Thai cave where he offered a completely unusable solution and then had a hissy fit and called one of the people actually doing the rescue a pedo is who he is.
I do think that the mini-sub he offered will have applications in other situations, just not in a tight cave where you might not have the ability to navigate the corners with such a long stiff tube.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade well he does gives vibes of an egotistical maniac
How many bikers are killed by human drivers rear ending them in broad day light every year ?? This is just gas lighting
@@TheDirtyBirchTrails I dunno if it is gaslighting but it is certainly something that could be more critically thought out.
@@TheDirtyBirchTrails There is a difference between humans being idiots and killing other humans and automated machines killing humans. You cannot stop every human from being an idiot but you can stop a death machine from existing
Auto pilots in cars are a great " get out of jail card" for car drivers! " Sorry mate, the car didn't see you!"
Let's also remember in the same year 6,000 motorcyclist died from human error, just in the US
ok?
Who could have foreseen that an autonomous automotive vehicle that only uses cameras and no depth sensors would have problems detecting things in poor light conditions.
Thank you !!!! Vision systems are bad idea in a car, even on a perfect day. Add fog, rain, bad lighting, sun glare and it is down right terrible.
its almost as its not autonomous yet
@@johnnichol9412 Very true, was driving in tropical storm conditions using hyundai's highway drive assist and as soon as the rain was heavy enough and the road spray thick enough to mess with the radar at the front, it notified me that conditions were unsafe for HDA and let me take control with just basic lane keeping assistance! (I was obviously white knuckled and 20 mph under the speed limit before the car gave up on HDA :D )
@@vojtulee1 My man defending Tesla in every comment lol 😂🤡
@@pv.pp_9515 you need to refresh your English skills, bro.
Please make follow up videos about this. As a rider, this affects me. As someone who knew Landon, its personal.
Hundreds died in Ford Pinto crashes before Ford was held accountable. We cant let Tesla do the same. The flaw is glaringly obvious and the autopilot needs to be shut down until there is a solution.
Tesla fires already killed 35 people compared to Ford Pinto's 60. And Ford produced a lot more Pintos.
@@merzto hopefully Tesla and musk are held accountable for their obvious greed
@@chuleta441 They should be, but we all know they won't be. It would get in the way of the governments electric car and autonomous vehicle agenda. Can't have that. It's only people's lives. Accountability would cost dollars. You know how it is.
@@magnusatheos7301 there’s no agenda for autonomous driving lmao electric cars maybe but don’t attribute malice when incompetence is the most reasonable answer.
If it was up to me we’d make using cars a pain in the ass but provide he eat unlicensed transportation in the word
How many motorcyclists have been killed by human drivers?
How about we shut down human drivers?
This was so great, I am surprised i just discovered this channel
As usual, brilliant, well thought out video. As a rider, I would not necessarily believe that the car approaching from behind (as they do) would not be piloted by a human and pass me when close enough. Perhaps one of the answers is to have some kind of warning lights/sounds that identify a car that is driving while that system is engaged.
My condolences to the two motorcyclists family :'(
May everyone be careful out there. Thx again for the content and my sincere condolences to the families 🕊️
We have a busy road near us with a High School on it. The students like to make a game of running in front of traffic to cross the highway, forcing people to slam on their brakes. I keep asking what will happen when auotpilot cars are common in the city and the people that already essentially ignore all minor laws with impunity find out they can just walk in front of these cars? The only answer I ever get from autopilot enthusiasts is "that won't happen". Okay I guess, but it will......
As a software developer, I don't trust my life in the hands of an autopilot. I'd rather be in control of the vehicle any day of the week.
I have a few 3M reflectors stuck to the rear and sides of my helmet. Although I haven't seen any Teslas on the dirtroads of Paraguay, I feel like the high up and irregularly moving reflectors are quite a cheap and effective safety feature, especially in dusty conditions.
yea or make it only a single light source or make it 3 break up the perception of the expected
I was hit by a tesla by this same issue. Yet was told the accident was my fault for not speeding..... now I deal with some major physical problems... glad someone is showing some of the faulty stuff on these cars...
Who told you it was your fault for NOT breaking the law??? That's the most retarded thing I've read in quite some time
That's crazy. I rode in the big city for the first time in a while yesterday, there were teslas everywhere. Usually I ride a bit faster than traffic- but that's a double edged sword. It's not the bikers job to not get rear ended.
What state was this in? That’s ridiculous, was it a straight rear ender or was it a lane merging situation? Doesn’t sound right
Nothing faulty here. He is going off of pure speculation
Its them compromising the public for their Beta Test. i mean why dont they spend money to do their tests with their own guinea pigs rather than everyone.
THE SOURCES AT THE END!!!! thank you for giving such us such high quality content
Another top notch world class video, paid for by CZcams advertising. Why cant movies in Hollywood be this well done?
We should not allow Tesla to risk our lives in the process of working bugs out of their system.
but... Tesla isn't risking lives though, Tesla drivers are. It is 100% the driver's responsibility, the driver HAS TO, by law, and by Tesla's fine print, be fully aware and prepared to intervene at any given moment. If any of these collisions had an attentive driver, it would not have happened, period. Sucks that autopilot didn't work, but it is fully the driver's fault.
I don't know about Tesla Autopilot, but distracted drivers texting on cell phones sure are killing plenty of us these days. I've been an avid motorcyclist for over 50 years, and there has never been a more dangerous time to be a biker. I can ride for five miles down almost any busy, multi-lane road and will see half a dozen people looking down, weaving all over the road, and poking away at their phones. A friend of my son was killed this very week when a distracted cager ran over her from behind as she slowed for a red light. She was just 21 years old.
yup. Cellphone usage is bonkers. People of all ages unless really old pre-cellphone people.
It's amazing watching a car travel dozens of feet and seeing the driver's half-closed eyelids in the side view mirror.
I like how you walk past the “no photography” sign 😂
even in planes, the auto pilot is to just help the pilot as the pilot still has to do its job
Your taillight theory reminds me of, I think it was the early 2000s, when Saturn made a car that had the headlights close together. At night they looked like they were much farther down the road. I must've pulled out in front a half dozen of them, not realizing they were that close until I looked in the rearview. Friends and coworkers said they had the same issues with those cars.
Cars are never tested in the driving world, just on test tracks that have no features or objects around other than trees.
This happened with some motorcycles too in the late 80's, early 90's. Can't remember the brand, I think Suzuki, made motorcycles with 2 small headlights. Made the approaching motorcycles look like a car far away when in fact they were motorcycles up close. Caused many accidents when drivers misinterpreted what they saw.
The same with the Chevy van tail lights and I believe kia tail lights. These are higher, and seem far away
So if we made a car with light further apart people won,t pull out assuming they are closer
@@staticbuilds7613 Only until drivers get used to the new lights. Then they might start pulling out in front off other cars more often.
Sometimes we're too smart for our good.
So, I had the opportunity to stay next to a Tesla on my ZX6R at a stoplight. I remember looking at the screen. One thing I noticed was that the icon that represented me on the road disappeared for a few seconds with about 15-20 seconds between disappearances.
It is indeed unnerving given how much of the Tesla is held back by its safeties; those need to be rock solid.
Do you remember that there’s a human inside who has driver license?
@@stem_196 A cager would never take advantage of our innate gullibility!
@@stem_196 Do you understand that if the human inside would've concentrated on the road, the two deaths and innumerable accidents on Teslas hitting other objects/vehicles would not have happened?
So, what lead to their careless behavior? That's what the video talks about. Fixing the term "Autopilot" for a start. And the other key things that Ryan mentioned here. If these fixes and fail-safes were present, chances are these deaths could've been prevented.
@@stem_196 If you have to ask me that question then you need to review the video again to let the point sink in further.
To be fair, when brother vehicle is moving it's hard for the AI model to detect you. Plus it may have been the old AI depending on when this happened. Not defending Tesla at all, just pointing out that that particular example may not be as bad as it sounds.
Thanks a bunch mate, it's useful to know this problem with driving automation.
Great and informative video as always. Such a good channel.
As a first responder, I can say without revealing too much information that the Autopilot feature has been used as a crutch for individuals who are driving impaired. Which has lead to serious vehicle collisions and possible deaths (can't legally attest), unfortunately.
Just delete the comment it’s a joke. Have some dignity.
@@reaalitykinggs the truth will be revealed.
@Justin Flint you're a funny one. I appreciate your candor and your ignorance, as you have no idea what you are talking about. The peanut gallery is waiting for you.
My concern is how will these systems perform when the car is 20 years old and done 150,000 miles, been fitted with bargain bucket brake pads and budget tyres?
They should know that. Engineers build systems of failure, meaning when they design and build something, they know the limit which it will fail at. Both in capability and longevity. We need to ask Tesla what are the capability limit of Autopilot performance? Is it dogs running into the street? cats? rats? Systems aren’t magically built to cope with all possible scenarios, they have to be designed to handle them. As far as longevity it’s the Wild West right now, but I’m guessing that eventually auto drive systems would be certified for a length of time like maybe 5 yrs then they have to be inspected, tested and re certified. Like commercial equipment or airplanes.
It probably would allready have automatically shut its self down for good and required the user to "update to the latest model" by then lmao
Brake pads make very little difference. They matter for repeated high speed stops (when they start to melt/outgas), but if that's happening, you aren't on autopilot.
The main reason they make a difference in **your** car is the driver. Human brakers will under-brake most of the time, and poor brakes will make that tendency worse, but a computer braking will apply whatever force is required to hit the stopping goal, which will be tire limited in many cases.
So yes, budget tires will impair braking performance. But again, most people panic brake about 1/2 the actual capabilities of the braking system, which is why makers came up with emergency braking boosters and the like before camera(or ranging)-based systems took emergency braking out of the hands of the human.
So tires 10% worse than "ideal" would still be better on an auto-braking vehicle than the tyres 10% better than "ideal" in the hands of the average driver.
So you know nothing about EVs, do you? My 2013 Nissan Leaf had 80K miles on it when I sold it in 2019. It still had 60% of its brake pads left. There is a facet of EVs called regenerative braking in which the car reclaims momentum energy and slows the car down without extensive use of the brakes. Education, it’s a wonderful thing.
teslas wont last 20 years,lucky if you get 10 but most likely the battery range will drop to 50% before 10 years and make the car junk at that point.
They've emulated human drivers so well that even their AI counterpart can't yield for motorcyclists.
Always appreciate the top quality content of this channel!