35mm vs 90mm | why not just crop?
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2023
- Instead of switching lenses to change your focal length, why not just crop? Let me show you why.
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To clarify: focal length doesn't cause compression, distance does! Great video. Something that can't be stressed enough.
Absolutely correct. You can even quantify the change in depth of field. For instance, if you take a picture with a 35mm lens at f/2.8 and crop into an equivalent field of view of 90mm, then you end up NOT with a virtual 90mm f/2.8 lens, but with a virtual 90mm f/7.2 lens, because you just created a 'crop factor' of 90mm/35mm = 2.6. (and 2.6 * 2.8 = 7.2 approximately)
That's why the 'virtual' 90mm lens created by cropping has a deeper depth of field.
Question is, who cares?
If print size and depth of field isn’t a priority cropping in is totally the same thing from a perspective side. Longer lenses have different characteristics but stopped down it will be pretty negligible.
@@castielvargastv7931 Some people care about background separation, some don't. For those who do, this information might be useful. For those who don't: feel free to ignore it ;)
@VariTimo you're right, perspective is the same (as shown in the video). If print size and shallow depth of field is not relevant, cropping can be a great option (e.g. in street photography)
I got into a pointless reddit argument some years ago about the same idea and couldn't believe I was being downvoted for saying what you are: Cropping is not identical to using the same "zoom" focal length. I think there are a lot of people who get into photography because it's just another tech thing - not really for the art, per se. A lot of these people are pedantic and often incorrect in their confidence. I've almost entirely stopped interacting with any photography community online just because it feels like the number of these folks is growing, and it's just exhausting talking to them.
I used to be one of those, until I actually started shooting more photos myself, and with a film camera no less. The fact that digital cameras (which I solely use nowadays, so I'm not dismissing them) are pretty much the only way photographers shoot nowadays, it just gets connected to any other digital tech and it's the same as arguing about which smartphone or computer or TV is better. Just a numbers thing all around
Couldn’t agree more! Ted Forbes said it correctly when he said every lens has its own visual signature. You just can’t recreate that with cropping.
@@alvareo92 For sure. The older I've gotten and the more I shoot, the more I realize the adage, "The best camera is the one you've got with you" has been the most guiding principle in what drives me to buy a piece of gear. Does the camera make me want to shoot? Yes? No? I love my 907X and at times, it's all I want to use. But sometimes I can't be bothered to put up with its shit, so I use the X100F. Its focal length is limited, its sensor is "small" by today's standards, both is resolution and size, but I can be bothered to use it and I really like what I get out of it. I can't imagine engaging myself in the minutiae anymore.
@@TheFilmFellowTed Forbes😂😂😂😂😂
@@bngr_bngryou have a weird sense of humor.
"Oh a bird... uh... another bird." had me rollin' 🤣
I was waiting for “SQUIRREL!”
Bro, "Crop to 300, I'm not driving" bwhaha!!!
Absolutely right. There is a lot of confussion with that cropping issue. Perspective is the same from the same shooting point, but then as you say, why not just walk around with a fisheye? Lens design is also a factor.
great video as always matt, that point on focus is quite interesting as on that bridge picture while everything was clear and in focus on the 35mm crop, on the 90 mm photo i was kinda expecting focus on the bridge. so brings another creative aspect about choosing your gear carefully
I believe the important thing to know is just what you are doing with your gear to achieve your intent. If you know your gear well and are getting the shots that you want to express, then you're good.
I appreciate your image comparison here with equivalent perspective from a fixed distance to subject regardless of the lens. You've articulated that idea well here.
One detail would be that DOF equation has both focal length and aperture as part of the equation, so changing any of the parameters means necessitating changing another parameter if you want to hold DOF constant, or in the case you showed, DOF changes if you hold aperture constant. It's just math in the end, and what matters is that a photographer have a grasp of the technical if they care, but many photographers don't care and create amazing work.
In the end, if the tool you have is allowing you to achieve what's in your mind's eye, you're good.
The other important thing to know is whether the gear will achieve the intent. Perhaps different gear is better suited to the goal.
One detail to add to the detail is that distance to subject is also part of the DOF equation.
Nice demonstration. Aside form the technical differences I think it's also about intentionality. Visualising and framing up a shot at the intended focal length is a completely different experience to snapping away at 28 and finding a frame later.
My biggest beef with cropping is losing details / resolution, so I gave myself a rule of using a full frame or larger camera for wide angle shots to maximise my field of view as much as possible, but I'll use crop sensors to help with telephoto shots because I feel I'm getting closer to my subject and not wasting space with the same number of pixels (in my opinion!) . I use old digital NIKON F mount gear, so I have a D3 as my full frame / wide angle set up and a crop sensor D200 for telephoto. I very rarely will use my Rollei SLX for telephoto shots as occasionally the bokeh and mf seperation maybe what I need, but 99 times out of 100 crop meets my telephoto needs / requirements. Awesome video as always from the UK
Thank you for the video, and especially for the comparison images. A camera like the Q3 is for the person who asks and answers the "desert island lens" question, generally with 28mm, 35mm, or 50mm as their choice. They go to 90mm 'because they have to'. For those of us who create our best images in the 85-105mm range, cropping loses a big part of why that focal length range works for us.
Right on Matt! Nothing replaces the real deal.
“Headed straight to Pixel City” 😂
Can I get GPS coordinates, please? 😜
My understanding when they released the Q3 was not that the crop modes would replicate the DOF of a 50, 75 or 90 but more so the reach. For me, having the 90mm option on the Q3 isnt about shooting portraits at 90mm and getting the ' 90mm' look. Its about the zoom. I look at it this way, remove the mm ranges and substitute 'zoom' - 35mm( slight zoom), 50mm (more zoom) 75mm (even tighter zoom) , 90mm (zoomed all the way in because you couldnt physically get close enough and so better to have a shot than no shot). Its just a digital zoom feature and having the focal lengths tied to it kind of confuses some people. If I want 50mm shots, i pull out my xpro3 with 35mm and away we go.
If somebody doesn't think there is a difference between cropping and actually using different focal lengths he hasn't mastered the basics of photography. As a professional, understanding the look a specific focal length will give you and using that to your advantage is key. You have to be able to visualize the shot in your head and choose the lens you need to realize this vision accordingly. Often, you start out with one lens and realize you actually need a different focal length to get the result you want.
Am so glad you addressed this👍
Well, cropping in makes for the exact same difference as with using "crop sensors" - same field of view, same perspective, different depth of field. Losing resolution is not the main issue (even though the one most would instantly think about).
Hi Matt, could you do a follow up video on what would be the difference in fstop if you were to try to match the DoF between the 90mm and 35mm crop? Curious if there’s a simple way to gauge this roughly for practical quick in field use?
Great treatise on the subject, one which I keep debating, mostly with Q owners. I was surprised however, to know there’s a difference in DoF. That was unexpected.
Thanks for the video and Leica, please make a 35mm Q!!!
Good explanation! But as I get older, I’m tired of hauling big Canon and bag of EF lenses…simplified to a Q2 and zoom with my feet.
Very well done explanation! Now please explain why at a given focal length you need a much smaller aperture to get a decent depth of field when your subject is very close to the lens
The cine lens manual actually has a really good chapter on focal length and comparisons with relative distance.
Thanks for the video.
I like to shoot landscapes with a 28mm lens on my full-frame cameras. However, I do not own a 28mm lens for my Leica rangefinders. Your video made me realize that I can simply crop the images from my 21mm lens to obtain the 28mm look that I desire.
Love the hat, Matt. Classic line from Yeah right 😁
Owen Wilson was amazing haha 😂one of the best videos ever
Great video! Thank you very much. For me personally I wouldn't mind cropping to the next focal length up, say using a 35mm lens to shoot as a 50mm, especially if the 35mm is fast like a 1.4, 1.5, 1.7. I think it's a good way to minimize the amount of lenses you'd buy or carry with you. But cropping a 28mm to a 90mm on a q3 seems too much for my taste.
In theory compression does not change when you crop, but, depending on the lens choice, focus breathing may change compression. It's really the depth of field and bokeh that changes (in addition to the resolution of course).
Somehow, after so many years, I had no idea the compression didn't change!
One more important difference is lens distortion especially if you are cropping from a fishy lens. Even for some bad 28mm or 35mm lens, you can clearly see lens distortion especially if you don’t crop from the center. With the said, I have the Leica Q and the Leica 28mm lens was very well corrected so you are usually left with the problems mentioned in this video such as depth of field and resolution. Of course, lens distortion is not always bad, and that’s why directors such as Wong Kar-wai used them a lot to achieve artistic effect such as telling an intimate story while filming very close to their actors.
You are totally correct. I guess you will be getting something like:
mm crop-factor f-stop-eq Mpix
28 1,0 1,7 60
35 1,3 2,1 39
50 1,8 3,0 19
70 2,5 4,3 8
90 3,2 5,5 6
Now, the f-stop equivalence is really not bad, if you know how to handle it. The MP count may be a little low on long end.
Hi Matt
Thanks for this video.
What about distortions? Isn’t cropping in Camera different to cropping in post processing?
Just a thought
Hey Matt I have a quick question at @05:23 - how far is Pixel City from Suplex City? Hahaha great video as always!
This kind of thing happens every photography group on FB I am a member of. They argue about everything! You post a beautiful picture to share that was a super rare moment and someone starts nitpicking the white balance! Or you should’ve done this or that. I make a living doing photography but I like the artist side more than arguing about technical bs.
Also when cropping.... you need to crop in the center of the picture or the picture will have distortion and low image quality when cropping in the edges
Appreciate every your video🤝🫡😏
I switch between full frame and subminiature film formats often so I deal with the "equivalent FoV" thing a lot. People often describe Pentax 110 24mm as "equivalent" to 50mm on a full-frame, etc.
But i guess since youre changing the film size relative to the focal length this would give comparable DoF between the two? (Pentax 110 24mm vs full frame 50mm, i mean)
"why not crop?"
Because I have a Nikon D700 😂 lol
eh cropping in camera is no different than having a second smaller sensor camera. seems like people are forgetting aps-c is 1.5/1.6x crop of full frame, m43 is 2x crop of full frame. cropping is convenient but a Q3 60mp cropped to 90mm is 5.8MP, then IMO it should be compared to a m43 with 45mm lens. aperture can also make a difference between sensor size. the olympus 45mm 1.2 on m43 should be about 90mm 2.4 on FF.
Tell 'em
In the US, because of the general education system, many people don’t know anything about optics. If you have never been trained in sciences, it is easy to stick to your simplified ideas. You can’t blame them. It’s a worldwide problem that people use technology without knowing the basics. I certainly made mistakes because I didn’t understand the basics. Another thing I noticed that the difference between to blow up and to crop is lost. Cropping used to be to get rid of unwanted space on the sides of the image. Then you could decide how much you wanted to blow up/enlarge what remained. Cropping an image taken at 28mm and then blowing it up, remains part of a wide angle shot, with as you said, only a dilution of the information. That’s a physical reality.
You did a great job making your point. But I’m truly shocked this point needed to be made. If people don’t get it you did a great job in explaining and demonstrating. But really? There is a debate? Man! I’m old and out of touch.
Isn't it odd the Pixii has a native M mount and is digital and yet Leica uses L mount
for it's digital mirrorless . I would love the SL3 to come in both L and M native mounts.
No it's not odd, Leicas M rangefinder cameras use the M mount. The L mount is intended for supporting autofocus lenses for Leicas SL cameras, and not just for Leica cameras but for Panasonic ones as well
Great video, Matt!
Question: When you crop your negative do you also lose resolution the way you do with digital?
No. Film negatives have infinite resolution, you can crop all you want
You’re going to enlarge the grain when cropping, especially 35mm. But you can still crop quite a bit, many well-known photographs have been cropped significantly from a film negative.
@@alvareo92no
@@mattdayphoto100%
@@mattdayphoto thank you!
Seems like cropping is almost akin to shooting on a smaller sensor. In your example a 35mm lens on a “cropped” sensor/image of that proportion would seem like a 90mm.
It's almost the exact same, the difference is that cropping from a larger sensor will have less resolution and probably the lens won't resolve that lower resolution as well as a crop camera with a lens optimized for that crop factor
Obvious things: a 28mm remains a 28, even if you crop into it. That said, you don't necessarily need the 60 Mpx of the Q3 to get a decent print. A few years ago, I saw an exhibition where a photographer had exposed her photos shot on iPhone. No need fancy cameras, lenses and sensors to take or even print good photographs.
…”I’m not drive’n”
Wow, this idea that cropping in on say a 35 and making it look like a 90 just doesn't add up , i dont understand how people can think it's the same 😂 I print and frame a fair amount of work and would always go for the the most pixels I can get. Get the composition as right as you can in camera, maybe it's because so much photography is viewed on phones these days . You can get away with more cropping if your printing smaller like 4x6 or 5x7 say but if your going up to say 18x12 and Beyond then you in trouble .
It’s just ridiculous to me that people debate these actual technical facts. It’s funny how irrational we can be at times. I mean, just try it out and see the answer
Cropping is effectively a photoshop within the camera.
4 the algo
You’ve got me twisted. I think this is a hard thing to accurately portray because you are using F stops and not T stops. There is a different level of light transmission from each lens. If it was T stops, I believe the images would have the same DOF.
That being said, this makes sense for the argument because this is how people would be practically using this method, but aperture is the inconsistent variable.
This has nothing to do with F vs T stops. T stops account for transmission loss through glass, which is minor. The DoF difference here is major in comparison. The issue is that a 35mm at, say, f/4 has a 35/4=8.75mm aperture. Whereas a 90mm at f/4 has a 90/4=22.5mm aperture. You can see that for identical exposures (both f/4) the 90mm has a much larger aperture in an absolute sense. This makes sense because a 90mm lens will be using a smaller slice of the scene to produce an exposure, so of course it needs a larger aperture to achieve the same exposure. But that larger aperture results in a shallower DoF. This all pops right out of the DoF formula if you remember that the F-stop is *relative to the focal length*. When cropping the 35mm f/4, however, you didn't magically increase the size of the aperture, so you end up with a 90mm equivalent field of view, but using an 8.75mm aperture still, meaning your virtual aperture was only 90/8.75= f/10.3! Much smaller than f/4, and therefore much more DoF in the cropped version. If you wanted identical image rendering between cropped 35 and uncropped 90, you need to use different f-stops. But then of course you need different shutter speeds as well. The same would be true of T-stops by the way; the difference in DoF is much much bigger than the difference in light transmission loss due to glass. You would still need dramatically different T-stops to achieve identical field of view and depth of field between cropped 35 and uncropped 90. Take two cine lenses of different focal lengths and try for yourself.
@@gabedamien 😮💨 definitely going to test with some cine lenses to fully grasp this.
@@spensersakurai Definitely, always good to experiment for yourself and see things firsthand. The really simplified version to understand here is that f/8 is a different physical aperture size depending on focal length, and thus a different depth of field on different focal lengths. F/8 on 800mm is 100mm, whereas f/8 on 80mm is 10mm. 10x aperture size difference = way different depth of field!
"compression" is largely a myth. DOF is not of course.
Who says cropping is the same as using a different focal length clearly does not understand the basics of photography. Hence they do not even deserve an explanation Matt!
Oh, another bird😂
Maybe the fine folks at KEH (who I've done business with since 1988) would send you a 28mm Summicron or Elmarit so you could reshoot this with a person. Filling the frame for a headshot with a 28mm WILL enlarge the nose vs. shooting the same image with a 90mm. Not flattering. Period.
because we don't know how to crop ,how much, how a 90 mm looks like, you had a 90mm in your hand, those who don't owb one will have to guess
Hang on, isn't this obvious? If you're buying a Leica Q3 and dispute this, you have more money than sense.
Wait. A Leica owner with more money than sense. Surely not?!? (Says M11 owner 😬)
No one cares about dof. No one cares if a 35 looks different than a 90. People just people just want good looking pictures and they get them.
The average person probably not, but if you're into photography shallow depth of field can be important for certain artistic choices. It can also be overused a ton (see every "street portrait photographer" on CZcams shorts 😂)
I totally agree. Let me throw in a curve ball and find out what you think.
I put large format camera lens on let's say Full Frame. What do you think will the effect be on the final image quality? Will it be more resolved or less as far as quality is concerned? I know the focal length will not change, but due to smaller sensor compared to MF or LF , I am cropping the sharpest part of the larger image circle. Thanks
The medium format lens might not perform as well due to the individual pixels being smaller on the full frame camera. Depends on the lens though