Destiny Debates Sam Seder From The Majority Report.
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2024
- DEBATE: Sam Seder (Majority Report) and Destiny debate the hot button topic of student loan forgiveness.
Date: 21 Jul, 2021
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0:00 - Introductions, broader POV agreement & common ground
7:21 - "Separate the political question for a moment"
9:28 - Wealth vs household income
15:42 - Wealth disparity, who holds the debt, targeted stimulus
39:16 - Student loan debt is the #1 blockade for getting a house, recession
50:52 - What is wealth? Getting a loan, income based repayment
1:06:45 - Post debate Q&A
#Destiny
Destiny and Sam Seder debate student loan forgiveness. Enjoy!
Follow Sam Seder ►twitter.com/samseder Watch Majority Report ►czcams.com/users/SamSedervideos
(EDITOR'S NOTE: brought back the OG blue intro screen for this one lol)
@Joseph Hmm IIRC you're the one that calls most things "cringe"; am I right?
Destiny killem :) lol why does sader sound like he's about to croak O_o
@@danoco6385 The irony.
Think of student loans as your technology bill. Someone has to pay for it
@TryllaTröllMaistre Fictitious Fables of Europa the finance sector only makes gains as much as what they hold has value. The problem is when they depend on the use of force that we provide for them as government
You know this is an important one bc destiny washed his hair for this
Also, a trimmed tash!
Also, isnt playing League
Actually that was coincidental
Look at how soft and fluffy it looks. I just want to pet him.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Sam: I wanna debate Steven
Moderator* we got Steven at home
Best comment
+Destiny better pin this comment
I don't get it but plz don't explain it 2 me >:
@@godursolamehahaxd9909 He wanted Steven Crowder, got Steven Bonnell.
LOL
I want to see Destiny debate a barber on the merits of haircuts.
Alright I’m in. Destiny you look like a goddamned hobbit and this ain’t the shire. Get in my chair.
I kid, he looks like an Uber dork when he’s clean cut. The Frodo look is rugged.
It looks good tho
U know he’s serious when he aint playin runescape during the debate
Yea seder isn't quick like destiny but he's sitting on a mountain of research and first hand interviews with experts. I don't think either are worried. Just out of respect maybe?
Sam is a beast
Destiny plays RuneScape?
@@ommax8499 does Steven crowder dodge debates?
@@ommax8499 looks like he just grinds skills...normy shit.
His thirst for debate sated, Sam Seder returned to his part of the internet satisfied, returning to slumber until such a day when Steven Crowder gets permission from his dad to debate for real.
legends say crowder still watches sam's streams, wearing his holsters indoors, to keep a good hour between him and sam
Lmao
Bear eats... bear rests
@@bajula4444 lol Sam is Crowder's "it follows"
LMAO he shall sleep, dreaming of the day to be awakened anew
Sam finally got a debate with a Steven, good for him
XD
I literally laughed out loud… Thanks I needed that…
Didn't he already had a debate with him
Lol omg omg 😲 😭 noooooo don't say it lol
@@danoco6385 here’s some socks 🧦 you can take those back for your daddy crowders cold wittle feetsy’s
Interesting… So there actually is a Steven who’s not afraid to debate Sam.
I'm so used to referring to Destiny as Destiny that i legitimately forgot his actual name is Steven until this comment lol
Ironically it’s the one that licks his chocolate starfish . This Steven is a mayor Duck with a “C”
Destiny got stuck in a personal perspective wormhole.
He tends to do that. I still like him, but now watch him less for that reason. (Edit: Having now seen the second half of the debate, I have to admit that I wasn't not totally disappointed by Destiny’s perspective here. Sometimes he says things that make me facepalm, but tbh, this wasn’t one of those occasions. Interesting back and forth, with good concerns raised by Destiny, though ultimately it seemed like Sam had thought the issue through a bit more.)
Amazin
@@gregoryodonnell3793 "He tends to do that. I still like him, but now watch him less for that reason." 👍
Edit: 👎
That opening is probably the happiest I've ever seen Destiny.
Sam Seder exposed on my recent vid
@@drdavinsky ratio + don't care
@@bubberduck4964 down votes coming from his followers bc I posted on his page. Plus I don’t care that you don’t care, other people do :)
Thats what i was thinking lol
@@drdavinsky your vid sucks
at least one steven can actually talk with sam
Stephen
Got em
@@carrickcullen3567 STAYVUN
@@bajula4444 Seeven
@@danoco6385 What a lethal dosage of cope does to a right-wing child
Destiny's chat is just filled with children. "who's winning?" it's a conversation, and why don't you listen and learn and see who you think makes more sense? Twitch has just turned political discourse into weird team sport.
Word up, but concidering a large amount of the audience and active chatters likely are teenagers who spend all day om the computer, I don’t think it really matters. I was dumb as shit as a teenager and was floating all around the political compass. I think the awareness and attention will focus on the politics rather than the «fight» or personality as they age, just like it did to me
I hear ya and actually agree but hey, this is just where this debate culture has taken us. I’m just happy people are interested in these debates regardless of how they may take it in
@@SeorgeGoros the problem is they're not really interested though are they. They just want destiny to "DESTROYYYYYY" whoever he's speaking to.
@@Matt-jw2yo ok well exposed than, I’m glad they’re just exposed to it
@@SeorgeGoros I guess that is true. Some will listen and learn something. It's a shame the vast majority probably won't.
I've worked in mortgage banking for over 10 years. They always ask about assets. Lots of places have calculators that will give an additional income about based on types of assets like savings and money market or IRAs or 401ks or other stocks and bonds. You get asset depletion calculations. Add that to the monthly income.
But they also look at your assets to show you've got money for things like closing costs and fees but the big one is the down payment. That could be anywhere from 5% to 20% or more of the price of the home that you have to pay upfront. So they will check your assets through statements to show you've got the funds.
So yes. They look at assets. They pretty much all do.
Banks do but the State shouldn't because it isn't as effective for social change.
@@MrMango331 just like Sam said. Means testing is often a waste of time and money. That's why universality brings dynamic social change for everyone and is hard to bring down.
@@TheVirtuosOne Except it doesn't since universality is what started this issue to begin with.
To give people with nothing the same rights as others after being slaved is comparable to a 18 yo being thrown in to the streets. They'll have nothing to start with and when done en masse it will make the whole community poor for centuries to come.
To be fair when you run a company centered around money, your worry isn't social issues but profit. That's why comparing banks to governments is kinda dumb
@@TheVirtuosOne Universality is what brought the issues to begin with.
When you throw out a 18 year old to the streets and say "We are now equal" are you really?
@@MrMango331 you're the one comparing banks to the government. Density said banks dont look at assets when buying a house. I was stating the ways in which they do look at assets when buying a house.
Damn the chat is so obnoxious. ''Destiny, don't let him talk over you'' ''Steven, TALK OVER HIM''
Nobody is even paying attention to the content of the debate.
That’s how it goes around these parts lmao
Stream chats in a nutshell. Just a bunch of dumbasses spamming Pepe emojis and repeating the same sentence over and over again, just take a look at the abomination that is xQc’s chat.
This is the case for almost every streamer. Check out Lance's (the special needs guy on the Serfs) chat when he talks to destiny for a good example.
Gosh you guys have sticks up your rears
@@Ridistrict I was going to say you shouldn't call him special needs but I guess being born without a spine would count as a disability
Very hard to listen to "destiny's" take on this. Because it is the epitome of a bankrupt "centrist" approach. In actual fact it's even worse than that - what it boils down to is someone who likes to listen to himself talk and show the world how sophisticated and "realistic" he is (when in reality it's the exact opposite) and over intellectualize something with in the final analysis meaningless arguments in terms of the context and the objectives within which they're taking place. To put it mildly, it's gibberish, and he reveals himself to be a very silly person.
Conclusion: student debt is needless, disgusting, impractical and detrimental to all of society in a myriad of ways and needs to be eliminated for all asap. It's all class and elitist war on all the rest, going way back.
The elimination of all of it (and elimination of cost for higher ed) won't change all of the power dynamics and ills of society but it would have a profound benefit for all, to say the least. So arguing against the elimination of all debt because you dont like the metric by which it would all be rid of is....not a serious argument. It's trite, it's gibberish and silliness.
This kind of crap unfortunately is representative of so much so called "intellectual" argument in media and the academy. That's why I write this.
I should add "destiny's" argument, then, is simply not in good faith.
destiny feels like he had it worse than the average college grad
Yeah, this dudes a clown. Good take! Be well!
If helping some millionaires who don't need it is the side-effect of relieving student loan debt so people without generational wealth can get the help they need, I'm all for it. The wealthy people aren't feeling a significant boost, but poor people with loan debt will feel the boost.
yup
@Don you dont understand what political capital is then. because there will be people on the edges of the voter base that will see this and maybe some other things and turn red for the next election when they wouldnt otherwise
@Don u can’t just cancel debt without major economic impact
cancel it and make it free or at minimum interest-free debt; like the rest of the civilized world
Exactly, it's worth it. It's not even regressive if you consider the fact that the rich will be paying more in taxes for covering the benefit of relieving student loan debt. If you cancel out the debt but increase their taxes to cover their debt + others, the rich are not really benefiting from it.
Oh No, Sam Seder! What a fucking Nightmare!
DESTINY didnt run from Sam Seder. He has Balls of Steel.
Unlike the change my mind meme guy.
nobody of note debates sam because he isnt genuine. he argues straw men with everyone he disagrees with. he doesnt have a boner to pick with destiny. this is just cheerleading.
@@eeeemmteeee that's the same thing people say about Destiny, and the response is always the same: any evidence brah? Or are you just going to piss and cry?
He also has feet of warmth
@@ksilva2848 simple destiny has been going through a redemption arc...
Seder is a clout chaser.
Again.....Destiny lives in the absolutes. Take notice how many times he uses maximal terms; 'always', 'nobody', 'everyone', 'everybody', 'never'.
He must think that these terms strengthen his argument when they reveal that his arguments ignore and lack nuance.
Yea he's been told in debate post mortems in the past. Hyperbole is effective with most listeners but destiny is effective enough that he really doesn't need it.
He’s just trying to follow the thread to its logical conclusion. Destiny values absolute statements because it allows him to make logically consistent arguments and therefore develop a logically consistent world view. Anybody who studies ethics or philosophy would tell you this is how you develop a moral framework that has any utility. It allows destiny to look at a problem objectively. For instance destiny was able to show that Kyle Rittenhouse was acting reasonably when he defended himself in Illinois, while still disagreeing with Kyle’s political views.
@@enclavestreams3202 yes, but outside of the theoretical the nuance is everything and this debate is one of policy not logic. There is a more efficient way to get the most relief via student debt forgiveness that has nothing to do with logic per se and by using hyperbole without citing (which I believe destiny could've done more) it makes destiny seem like he's going off a logical feeling of the situation without knowing how it actually pans out with the nuances of reality.
@@enclavestreams3202 Ironically, I think that’s a take Destiny gets completely wrong. And most people would agree that he’s wrong. It’s one thing to defend your property with deadly force, but Kyle was running around with that gun hoping to put himself in the middle of an altercation.
It’s like a married man going to a brothel and telling his wife he only cheated because he got drunk and he’s not to blame. If Kyle had just stood in front of the store he was there to protect Destiny would be right. But that’s not what happened.
I think you are interpreting his positions extremely uncharitably, far more uncharitably than Seder did. If Sam had taken your position and been hostile because Destiny used some mildly hyperbolic absolutes as part of his discussion style, this would have been a useless dickwagging argument. Instead, it was fairly good faith.
1:13:45 disproves his own point earlier in the debate. Destiny claims wages for college graduates vs high school earners are going up while HS is stagnant, but this graph shows stagnant wages for both. The price of a college degree has been rising while high school is still free. Big issue here
Bingo
🤦🏿♀️ I can't even. This is why globally America is not doing well in comprehension when it comes to the English portion of tests.
I think you have to consider that the graph is looking at the median of both high school and college undergrads. It takes from the high and low range and combines it all. Not all undergraduate degrees are worth the same and value. I just don't think it's the best graph to make a point.
@@calvintorgerson9686 but his point had nothing to do with the variance of one or the other. There’s huge variance for both hence why they use median income. His whole point was that college degrees, although they are costing more over time, they are becoming worth more, which is seemingly not true by his own stats
@@ruthantiaobong3502 are you calling me American? I take offence to that
Nice to see two people who respect each other speak on an issue that needs to be spoken about in non hyperbolic terms.
Destiny tends to talk about matching the other party's energy and demeanour, which was probably easier in this case.
I was not expecting this out of a Destiny debate with a lefty
To be fair, Destiny doesn't have a problem with the average mainstream left-aligned individual. He himself has stated that within American politics, he could be considered left or even far left, but that he doesn't get on with the extreme left online, especially hard line socialists. On balance, he probably has quite a bit in common with Sam Seder.
@@ordohereticus3427 What counts as "real" leftism is pretty much just semantics tbh
@@WiloPolis03 My intention here is not to get into a pointlessly convoluted discussion about what is or isn't real leftism. I am simply stating what Destiny himself has stated, and that aligns quite a bit with Sam Seder. As such, there's little to be surprised about. They've had a long-standing mutual respect between them, but, as Destiny stated at the start, he doesn't quite agree with how far things go with the Majority Report itself.
Completely anecdotal, but it Sam’s argument on Race disparity in college debt is so accurate for me. I’m dating someone now that has parents that are lawyers and my parents work as managers at a restaurant. Our views on money are completely different. She takes trips yearly, and much more willing to take risks with money than I am. She still is about to save 15k a year where I struggle to save 5k a year. She and I both graduated from college. I pay loans back where her parents paid a quarter million to pay for her college. The trajectory of our quality of life has been crazy, I make 10k more than she does a year and still she has more wealth than I do simply because the my money goes to helping more people than hers does. Sam is preaching to the choir when I hear this.
46:25 Sam's right about building assets. I watched a co-worker over 10 years not give a flying fuck about the company's 401k plan because through a previous trade he already had a guaranteed retirement account.
What do you mean by previous trade
@@21972012145525 Trade craft. Commercial diver. I don't know what the industry is like now but they used to have those daytime commercials for schooling while you watched Jerry Springer. Capitalism will market itself hard when it has a labor shortage.
Destiny seems to think that everyone that goes to college becomes a rich doctor or lawyer.
That was the weird part, both of their arguments have merit, but Destiny is completely wrong in his assumptions about college. The person who gets a degree in finance and goes on to be a loan officer at a credit union making 20$ per hour with 75k in student loan debt is going to earn dramatically less lifetime than someone with no degree earning 15$ at Target. The reason is only because of that loan payment. Of course the doctor/lawyer/engineer is going to out earn regardless of their loan debt, but that's an incredibly small fraction of all college degree holders. Most are 2 or 4 year degrees that go on to make somewhere between 30-70k, and if that's all you're making with 50k+ of debt, good luck ever earning enough money to afford assets to create wealth.
If you go to college to study arts/gender mumbo jumbo it's your own fault
Or that Amazon jobs are secure
@@Robin-kp1nv small minded dolt
Destiny would make my financial advisor's head explode. Deciding whether or not to relieve someone's debt by looking only at income (ignoring debt) is almost insane. Wealth = Assets - Debt Load. Everyone has wealth. Some people have positive wealth while others have significantly negative wealth. You could have two college graduates making $70,000. One has $5000 in student loan debt while the other has $80,000 debt. Looking only at income, both would be disqualified from debt relief. But you could easily determine who needs it the most by looking at net worth.
I wonder which of these guys is Steven Coward most afraid of.
If you asked he'd say "Destiny who? Sam Seder who?".
The real question is who is Steven's daddy most afraid of.
Both probably
Probably Sam, if only because I doubt he’s all that aware of Destiny.
@@edddy I guess he is so scared of both that he represses the memory of them as a defensive mechanism. lol
How do you not know or understand that debt erases wealth, and/or less income spread amongst more dependants for the same degree makes the income and the degree worth less than others with wealth and enjoy that max income from their identical degrees?
So true. When people say "learn to program", I ask them if they are a professional programmer and why would they want new grads flooding the job market and competing for the same jobs as them.
Yea it seemed like he was focused on what families bring in and not on the necessary expenses they have. On top of that how much having a wealthy family not only impacts the amount of loans you have to take (front end) but also what other obligations a family with less wealth has.
@@michaelhawkins5594 exactly!! All because Destiny feels like he had it worse than the average college grad.
wealth is assets minus debt. If you have no assets, student loans just increase your debt. When you have more dependents relying on your income increase from the diploma, you will not build wealth even over a long period of time
@@domenicopastore1721 replied above
Destiny could’ve just said “hmm I never considered the burden of claims on income others may suffer from when forming my opinion… it makes sense.” and saved a bunch of time.
He didnt even know they check your assests before getting a loan, which when getting fed loans you have to meet certain qualifiers like being low income
the presence of elders makes destiny intellectually insecure. He needs Jesse Lee to balance it out
“Yeah, I guess…but back to my main point which I’m gonna just keep reiterating…”
Or that we already have income driven repayment plans I'm currently on One
@@mellifluousthoughts1395 how many dependants one has an impact not only the ability to repay, the length of time of repaying for most people means they are excluded from building wealth during that period, as there will be little to no income to save or invest. If nearly half of one's working life is paying debt, then those people may have to trade raising a family with paying for a student loan.
The wealth argument makes sense especially when you consider having to take care of your parents.
yeah i had a problem with this part of the debate because it felt like destiny wasn't understanding or addressing it at all. two people can have the exact same income, but if one of them is from a low income family, more likely than not they have family they are giving money to(maybe theyre even the first one in their family to get a degree and make that kind of money), and because of that less money is going towards paying off their student loans and the person from the more wealthy family is going to pay off their student loans faster despite having the same income. obviously there is no obligation to give money to your family, but i think most of us would make that sacrifice if we were in that position.
@@d4c155 Exactly. Not everybody has parents that own their house. Now you have to figure out if you can afford to put them in a home or have them come live with you.
@@d4c155 No no. That's not wealth. That's income still. That's what destiny was saying. A "payment" that you have to regularly pay off is negative income, not wealth. Negative income is a function of income. It doesn't have anything to do with wealth if you're paying off a loan on house or paying for family. That's negative income.
Sam really put Steven in a logical chokehold with the wealth disparity argument.
Steven's argument only works if you pretend generational wealth is irrelevant.
This level of willful obtuseness is why I don't take Steven seriously.
That's more of a nitpick than a silver bullet.
Generation wealth means something, but it also completely ignores the fact that some people find wealth without having generational wealth behind them.
I’m not interested in penalizing people because they were born into a wealthy family. And I don’t understand why anybody else would be.
@@LetsGetitBoah It's weird the way adults have to apply for financial aid based on their parents income regardless of status of the relationship. There are people that are literally homeless trying to go to school but they can't because there parents are rich.
@@LetsGetitBoah saying some people get lucky and get rich who are from poor families isn’t a good argument to ignore the data that they are few and far between and for the most part they don’t.. especially now a days when poverty is pretty much the rule for poor kids and wealth is the rule for rich kids.. just because a few people slip through the cracks of the poverty trap doesn’t mean student loan debt forgiveness is not good for the economy and the future
I think looking as outsider the simple answer is just reduce student debt but give larger write off to the people that didn't get help off wealth. to make it equal opportunity in respect to funding. regardless of black or white the only indicator that is always tru with marginalization is talent. ie. ppl who progress faster in skills regardless of money backing them will more likely achieve more in long run of their life than those even with good funding of money. I feel like they're talking too much edge cases of talented + wealthy or stupid + unwealthy.. of course the ladder may be more common based off the way US educational systems work but imo that's why going rather with "forgive" taking the reduction route is better way to still hold the system accountable.
I'm a teacher in Arizona, and I know I (and a whole mess of us) are buried in student loan debt. I have a master's degree and in 3.5 years, I'll *finally* qualify for the public service loan forgiveness program.
I have been thankful for the last 12+ months of loan payment suspension.
Good luck and congrats on your masters!
Same here lol teacher in canada and almost all of us have basically no chance to pay them back
Edit: its a little annoying to hear destiny keep claiming that anyone with a degree is going to put them into upper class when teachers literally have to get degrees and are well known to be severely underpaid. This is not the only field like this either. Plus nearly everyone has a degree now making it almost impossible to leverage to pull yourself up there.
The #1 impediment to buying a house is student loan debt. The real estate market came out and said student loan debt was a problem.
Quite often it feels like Destiny is incapable of conceding a point or being open to changing his mind. I felt Sam had him pretty well cornered in the first half and Destiny would not give an inch. I have watched for years and don't think I have ever seen him concede a point in a debate like this. It is not admitting defeat; it's being open to reframing your thinking based on points made by someone more educated on the topic.
Well said
It's not always about "not conceding"
Sometimes someone truly doesn't see eye to eye, or more so, someone can just actually be wrong.
@Don You say, but that fact that you said that means my point went over your head. Lmao.
Sam is equally resistant to conceding. It's common. I agree that Destiny has a certain way of not backing down.
I feel like that is how everyone is, it's not something strange that in the heat of a debate you have a hard time changing your view. Unless you are reasonable and very convinced by the other person. The revelations comes after the debate. When you can really think about all the points made, and maybe you change your views a bit or maybe you don't.
It's not often you see people conceeding points in the debate itself.
I would take this content over Zherka every day. Talking memes are fun, but so are real discussions.
As a lover of Zherka memes, its nice to get a good convo too. Gotta spice up my Destiny dishes
@@powercore2000 i love zherka since heas the only famous aslbanian on twitch but i find the guy fucking obnoxious i wish we had more albanian representatin that werent morons
Hell no, That dating podcast shit was way more fun
I also enjoy the memes, but sometimes the obnoxiousness really undermines the quality of the conversations. On this discussion, I tend to fall somewhere between Sam and Destiny, and it was interesting to see a good example of where different perspectives on what we should value more without resorting to ad homs and screaming.
Also, that dating podcast was entertaining, ngl.
Please tell me how it was a discussion when they basically got to discuss nothing? It boiled down to "I think student debt forgiveness would be good" and "I dont think it would and basing it off of a bad study isn't good"
50:00 Destiny starts arguing against himself
Thanks to both for engaging in good faith discussion, it's a breath of fresh air seeing people respecting eachother and not just attacking eachother
If Destiny thinks student debt forgiveness overly benefits wealthy people, just tax them more on the back end.
Then what's the point of doing it in the first place? You give them money only to take them back? Also why waste so much political capital on increasing taxes when there are far better and precise policies actually adressing the issues?
@@michaeldromes3948 It was addressed in the first five minutes of the video.
A.) Universality makes more durable policy
B.) Means testing is inefficient and wasteful of money
There is a built-in method of means testing literally every social program and entitlement in the country, and it's a progressive tax rate.
@@michaeldromes3948 Like what? What alternative policy that’s as possible to pass are you referring to?
Wealthy people don’t have to take out loans to send their kids to school. Just like wealthy people overwhelmingly don’t send their children to public universities. There’s not a world that exists where a universal program related to college education benefits wealthy people. Even when we consider the points he is making about high-paying professions creating a dynamic where people with “good degrees” out-earn their debt, everyone knows the insane expense of medical school, law school, etc. Like, yeah, sure, a doctor or person with a law firm should eventually far exceed their debt in earnings. But even in the best of cases, they will spend a decade paying that debt back as opposed to, say, opening a practice in an area that is being severely underserved. If you’re a fan of destiny, I’m not trying to be insulting, but his arguments are so insanely awful that I can’t believe I ever found him engaging. In fairness, I found him engaging when he wasn’t carving out some weird centrist lane for himself, but still.
@Jo Mack Wall Street tanked the economy and lost people trillions of dollars and the government bailed them out with our tax dollars without hesitation. So yeah, in a hypothetical world where someone does fail, I have no problem with my tax dollars going towards paying back their, say, 10, 20, 30k in student debt. But even beyond that, the idea that an easily attainable college degree will lead to a less motivated student population seems extremely counter-intuitive. If anything, I would think it would be a motivating factor. If you’re struggling in school and know that if you drag things out and don’t end up doing well enough to move on to the higher level courses you need to earn a degree in 4 years you’ll be massively in debt, you’re a lot more likely to quit than you’d be if your education is free. A free college education would also mean, for example, a significantly lower number of college students would have to work while they attend school. That directly benefits students and allows them to have a college experience while also taking their studies seriously. Like, will some people squander every opportunity afforded to them? Yeah, sure. Rich people like Donald Trump do it all the time, and there are people from all income brackets who will fail. But as I said before, the difference is when rich people fail, they get bailed out without hesitation from anyone in the ruling class. When we try to bail out the less fortunate, there have to be 14,000 hypotheticals and parameters attached.
Now we need Destiny to surprise Crowder next.
@@therussiantrollnetwork7464 100% agree crowder isn't a good debater. I literally just started streaming because I think most right leaning online people don't understand the left. I was a lefty not so long ago and I became a Minarchist recently. Destiny it's one of the best left leaning debaters out there. I still haven't seen him debate someone that beats him.
Crowder would probably pull out that pistol from his holster and end it there before Destiny has a chance to ask him anything.
It's a shame that right wingers are natural cowards and avoid adult conversations. Maybe Crowder's daddy will let him go out some day. 🤷♂️
@@robinthestate6548 What makes him good, apart from being smart and analytical, is that he doesn’t feel compelled to make facts conform to a “team” position. If given data happens to favour a specific right-wing position, in one particular circumstance, he will readily acknowledge it, instead of bending over backwards to try to make it fit a preconceived notion. And he will actually change his mind in the face of data he hadn’t previously absorbed. If you want to be an equivalent to him on the right, there’s your key.
@@fromchomleystreet that's why i ended up being a libertarian-ish, I used to be really in favor of democrats and somehow i ended up getting in the trump train, I had a weird republican moment. but after getting away from arguing with people for like a whole year which was just making it so it was easier for me to dig my heels in. I ended up lliking more libertarian policies then any other party. I mostly disagree with the libertarian isolitionism and the ancap idea. I think ancaps are mental and do a lot of circular arguments. My problem with the democrats now honestly it's the interventionism and the high amount of bottle necking done by democrat representatives. (republicans do this too) most of the policies I advocate for are to actually to try to help peoplke who are actually screwed in life. (ex: the homeless, people with mental illness, people with disabilities, and people who are really stuck in a low income position) I think that a lot of this stuff will be fixed by freeing up the market and getting the government out of a lot things. I also like environmental protection policies. I don't really think there's a word to describe my position i call myself a minarchist because that would be my utopia but I honestly i'm not in favor of just removing wellfare all of the sudden. I think the people in wellfare are as much victims of the system as are the people being taxed out of existence. I would consider myself maybe a classical liberal but I hate how a lot of classical liberals are just republicans who pretend to be libertarians. Anyway this was a pretty good debate and they both handled themselves well. Sorry about the rant.
Steven, you're giving me ptsd flashbacks with your computer needing updates
I love how there are people in the chat screeching that Sam is an idiot and doesn't understand the debt situation while also seeming to have not known that for profit colleges exist.
There are non profit colleges?
@@petemoss7704 Exactly! either we the people pay for college, or the government steals extra money from everyone and we the people still pay for it.
@socially unacceptable no. Its not. Your tax dollars pay for politicians that throw peoplw in cages for plants, and agencies that cause mass death and geocides around the planet. Utopia is nice, but lets be honest.
@@crushinnihilism bro, taxes are necessary for a productive society. Unless you're discussing a moneyless society, you need taxes.
@@ashrobin55 if you think the only possible way to run a society is for a ruling class to steal the wealth of the peasents under threat of violence, then maybe your imagination isnt very good.
Taxpayers money is stolen. Its not a voluntary contract. You likely cant name a single local or federal actor that collects and distributes them. We cant control were the funds are going. At the moment they're paying the salaries of several government agencies. Agencies that continue expanding. I really dont get when lefties are so defense about this. You're literally funding murder campaigns in syria right now. They dont go to social programs. They dont even fix the roads outside the area that generate wealth and tourism.
Sam is cool.His war on Christmas on CNN was epic.
Fucking Iconic. They should play that clip every Christmas when Fox News whips out the "War on Christmas" decorations.
Hell yeah
I graduated in 2003 with 96k debt. Mostly paid it back still got a little left. I don't wish that burden on anyone. Black, White, Martian whoever. If they made public college and trade schools tuition free, I wouldn't be one bit upset by that or mad that I paid all that money for something that became free. Those debts are a huge yoke around the neck.
Destiny and his cool dad make for great content
And Samuel begat Destiny who begat Vaush who is brother of Xanderhal....
Steve and his dad vs.... Steve Crowder and his dad????
Besides the racial aspect, I relate to everything Sam is saying about what black people have to go through in terms of college and debt. It’s incredibly hard to go to school with poorer parents who also have no experience with college and literally just have the idea that you’ll make more money.
You are both forgetting that education is meant to further human knowledge, not to make money. The commodification of education is the main problem.
Sam is just a great human being. Great debate overall really enjoyed this
Why do you say that?
@@GODCONVOYPRIME god damn I hate CZcams comments. Someone can comment the most mundane shit ever and you'd still find negative comments.
@@omarsabir1210 how is asking a question inherently negative lmao
@@Ironraven24 Yeah that was more negative than what they're complaining lol what an overreaction
@@Ironraven24 I don't think they said it was inherently negative. it comes off as negative in the context of the OG post. It's possible that they're genuinely asking and dont know who Sam is but its pretty clear why it seems negative.
Big fan of this discussion.
Boring as shit tho
I bodied this guy on my new video
@Don Concern trolling is right. Destiny's hate for online lefties > his supposed concern for the working class.
@Don was is it unbelievable that destiny would want money to be going to better places?
@re e Well, if you are willing to be this bad faith, as though we don't know that Destiny has explicitly and reflexively taken up positions against those of "online lefties," I can safely say the the derangement is all yours, comrade.
Destiny: "Income is more important than wealth."
Sam: "Sure, but what if you can't afford to get to that level of income?"
Destiny: "... Income is more important than wealth in theory."
Dude has no concept of how big a factor your, or your family's wealth is, in being successful in this country...yet, at one point, he even said a doctor's kids will have better lives for the amount of money the doctor will make...weird
Yeah. He’s basically just lacking any understanding of the topic. And instead of trying to learn more he’s learning on Reddit and Twitter
@DiglettUser Don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for destiny and his rhetorical strategies. Lately; though, it seems as if he's married to his ideology and is more concerned with being right than what is right.
DiglettUser as a person from a low wealth family and a college graduate who used loans to pay for it, I agree with Destiny. I’d much rather have high income potential than some level of generational wealth. It’s not mental gymnastics, just critical thinking outside hypotheticals.
Sam made horrible arguments. Sam comes across as someone who knows a lot of facts but has a basic inability to connect the dots and just ignores reality.
@@ARStartup How can you so confidently state something so stupid if you really watched this video?
The point is that people cannot get to the high income potential that their degrees statistically enable because they are bogged down by debt. A black household for instance cannot afford to sacrifice an equal % of their monthly income towards student loan repayment as a white household, precisely because of the conditions that their statistical gap in generational wealth has created. When you have to send money back to your parents to help feed your young brother, you are more hesitant to even go into debt. In this way, wealth and income are linked, even if banks will only look at your income to debt ratio when it comes to getting a mortgage, that doesn't matter when a larger % of your income is already reserved and you cannot afford to go into debt at all.
You are basically using survivorship bias to disregard reality and you are saying that Sam made horrible arguments lol. All because Destiny wants to stick it to internet leftists by claiming debt forgiveness is bad because it forgives the debt of Silicon Valley bros rather than high school educated single mothers or whatever, which is stupid.
This is the first time listening to Destiny that I clearly understand his point and the other side of his argument and completely disagree with him. 1. I disagree with his theory that those with student loan debt has more wealth. Those wealthy enough not to take out loans will always have more wealth for many reasons. 2. I for one have student loan chains that I can’t get rid of and earn just over min wage because I didn’t have emotional stability to finish college. Also I’m with someone that’s hugely into debt and payments take up a HUGE chunk of their pay. By the time they pay off loans they will be old. So basically the repayments will follow some of us for the rest of our lives.
It might also be due to Destiny unable to poison the well or character assassinate his opponent before the debate.
@Don tbf to destiny, he's gone from being a carpet cleaner to making hundreds of thousands a year streaming video games. I can see how he might value utility of wealth differently to what his income has been able to do for him.
For what it's worth, I have a Bachelor's degree in an Information Technology field, and I'm also a veteran. Still had a very difficult time finding a job. Every employer that even bothered to respond did so with a "what else" attitude. "Golden ticket" my ass. Things just aren't worth what they used to be. Ended up getting a job in a field that my degree wasn't in...
Did you get any certifications ? A+ ? Net & Sec+ ?
@@Vizceral I was working on Sec+ when I got an opportunity to pursue work in an adjacent field, so that cert was put on hold. I was lucky to come upon this opportunity and had enough background attributes to get me in the door (IT-related degree, vet, clearance). But someone with "just a degree" may still find themselves doing hard work to find a place. Of course there are recent external factors that may be influencing talent acquisition (COVID), but the value was already decreasing. I'll be fine because I caught a break, but there are many other "me's" out there who might not be so lucky trying to find their way.
I got a certificate and experience in IT. In hawaii, I found it difficult to even get a help desk technician job (and I also have call center experience). I said fuck it, imma go into HVAC. BTW I also realized that the real money in IT is fro coders and programmers. I took a little course in coding Python and saw how boring it was lol, it's just not for me.
Oh no!! Sam Seder!!! What a nightmare!
Seeing how quickly this guy brings race into a conversation I can see why.
@@erikshure360 Racial disparities are a fairly big issue, don't see what's wrong with bringing it up
@@EuropesNinja he’s scared of race
@@DougDimmaDab ?
@Uncle Seidl insert emoji
can't understand how Destiny agrees that higher education should be free, but does not agree with the position to remove the student loans for people who already got a higher education. I am from Norway and I can say from my experience having free education really helps the lower and middle class.
I've really enjoyed your content the last couple years, you still do a net positive but I don't know wtf is up lately. Platforming Sargon really sucked, getting a 10/10 twitch girl on and just blindly siding with her even though she was saying things you've argued against in the past, and now back on the crusade on student loans. I don't think I've heard you once aknowledge that some people with student loans are getting screwed, you wheeled out a straw man of a doctor getting a medical degree instead, I thought I was listening to shapiro. I think you've gotten really out of touch lately and have moved towards finding the answers you want and making fewer concessions.
You've started arguing for positions you've already decided and getting shadier with the debate tactics lately so I'm Gunna stop watching. You said your biggest fear would be looking back and realising you've been in a bubble of your own farts m and it's starting to look that way. Hope you recalibrate soon. Thanks mate, still enjoy your old content.
Don't care+ your white
@@Ziggsters1515 very original mate 👌
After Kenosha I really didn't see any consistency. I honestly want to see the older Destiny debate 2020/2021 Destiny because he's shifted quite to the right.
He said in his conversation with The Serfs he debated the Skeptics community when they were popular and now he's debating left leaning ideas because they're popular.
He might just be a contrarian that fights against online popularity of topics.
What a dreadful existence to be defined by what's popular.
@@calastyphon4081 You might be right. Would be a shame, though, he is clearly a smart guy
@@calastyphon4081 Ya Kenosha was the beginning of the end. I gave a pass on the contrary excuse untill now because sure you gotta get engagement, but acting like the "waaa a trans security guard is being descriminated against" and "so what if this law targets black people unfairly sux to be them lol" are just as bad as one another is literally the enlightened centerest. Top that off with the occasional friendly chat with Sargon of all people and you got a good pipeline.
Sad to see him become like this I'm really disappointed tbh.
Destiny thinks having a college degree means you'll be ok??? I'd argue a college degree couldn't mean less then ever, yet we pressure kids into these institutions anyway.
Said pretty much the same thing elsewhere. Degrees aren't worth what they were 25 years ago.
We've come full circle again now where employers are back to valuing experience over all.
Depends on what you want to do, a degree and school is necessary for pretty much all sciences, while stuff like art, it is not as needed
You’re misrepresenting what he stated. Ppl with a college degree have a higher earning potential than someone without one. His point is, if we are going to give a stimulus or print money to give away, giving that money to college grads does less to help with the wealth inequality in this country.
@@macyoung6634 yeah but his whole argument is completely illogical bc it contradicts the proposition with having free college (literally the same resource being funded as the debt). If you're not one of those high earners ,goodbye, you just gambled your future credit well beyond anything possible with a credit card...
@@arronax3319 again, you misunderstood his position. There 1.5 trillion dollars in student loan debt. If tax payers have to foot the bill, the money could be spent somewhere else OR an income-based loan forgiveness. Than a blanket/everyone gets their loan payed off by the tax payers.
I like how rich people think they know about the life of poor people
Right!? 😂
If a poor person had student debt would erasing some or all of it help them?
So what? Are the ideas and arguments they’re giving discredited by their personal background? What is your point?
@@AntiSVH The point is, rich people's ideas are largely ideological. They presuppose all their class war on workers as a starting point.
@@Habeebea Well, if there are two opposing classes that are looking for politics that go in their favor then there is bound to be a conflict, unless you want to argue that socio-economic classes don’t exist and /or people don’t vote in their best interest
Destiny took this seriously, his hair was less greasy
Good friendly debate…Sam was more convincing
sam puts me to sleep with his stuttering, very pretentious word choices, and the way all his arguments can be boiled down to "because black".
@@Tbh5000 I’m sorry to hear that you hate the aesthetics of his argument instead of making a critique of the argument itself.
@@MrTallformyheight well rhetoric is pretty important in a debate
@@skeezy9471 You can have good rhetoric but still be factually incorrect.
@@skeezy9471 rhetoric only matters because many people are dumb and rely on a lizard brain level of understanding on topics. These people can unfortunately be persuaded towards any conclusion favored to their bias.
Sam Seder should of brought in H3H3 to debate Destiny, and then Destiny would say: oh no H3H3, what a fucking nightmare.
It’s so strange that destiny doesn’t see the middle class as working class. I make 80k on the east coast and i can’t stop working, despite the fact I’m middle class
I think the distinction to be made is those who work a lot to build up their wealth/assets, and those who work a lot to pay off their expenses. That's why I presume destiny looks at you and someone who lives paycheck to paycheck differently.
@@gdmikester4302 I’ts madness to me that my income places me in the middle class and at the same time i have debts and expenses just to exist to. He’s making a distinction between saving zero dollars a month to 2/300 hundred a month. It’s ridiculous
@Don as far as i know, the argument on that front is that workers are by their nature a cost to production and giving more input from a cost will only cause that cost to increase since humans by nature can never be satiated.
@@leftboxanderson5361 working paycheck to paycheck and having a meagre income is a big difference. although i dont know what metric leaves you in middle class, since to be middle class you do need to own some property.
@@MsHumanOfTheDecade i never heard owning property is required to be middle class. I was always under the impression it was the cross section of people who earned an income above 2/3rds of the local median income
Why exactly wouldn’t Crowder schedule a debate w/ this guy?
He appears perfectly reasonable and honest to me.
For that very reason.
Yea I think you covered it
1. The dude has made his career off of sensationalist journalism
2. He’s so disliked by his own staff one of them whistle-blew to Crowder that he was gonna show up in the H3H3 publicity stunt.
3. He has a million subs but averages 10k views a vid. (Though it went up after his little scam)
4. Watch his debate with Tim Pool
5. The mans made most of his remaining relevance specifically off of the fact that he’s never debated Crowder for years, so Crowder has a specific reason not to feed into his grift.
@@whatsinaname691 I’ve watched Sam Seder and Majority Report (MR) for maybe a decade. In the first half of MR Sam will interview a wide variety of guests and never in a sensationalist “shock jock” manner. The second half (the fun half they call it) they cover the news, admittedly from a left perspective but again nothing sensationalist.
MR is a sober news show.
Can you give me an example of some sensationalist journalism Sam has done?
@@SmartDave60 SS is a shock jock, but crowder is the serious sober analysis we need to expose the grift of SS
destiny conceded the entire argument without realizing it around 50 min in and then starts kind of talking in circles with himself. good conversation, little frustrating that the point sam is making is really obvious but is still missed.
He didn't concede, though. He's tackling the actual issue without resorting to skin color. Sam can chirp about wealth inequality around race all day, but it's not going to land on tangible policy if he can't find a solution that also backs poor people in other groups. I would say Sam is actually the one talking circles with himself. He keeps making the same point 1) without data and 2) without a clear vision of the solution.
From the content to chat, there are like 50 IQ points disparity.
Lmao, what I noticed during the live stream!
DGG is actually terrifyingly stupid
Dggers are a bunch of destiny stans... twitch chat was way better
@Don theyre not even debate bros, theyre just pedantic edge lords
@@parsifal2299 twitch chat??? DGG for lyfe before I go over to bitch chat DuckerZ
I've yet to watch the full video, but damn, Sam "won" this debate. Not for any points he made, but for that gosh darn crispy voice. It's so delightful to hear.
Really? Not that i dislike sam but his constant "ughh"s get grating.
@@PVWNSVCR1F1C3 Naaaaaaaah, not for me anyway. I love that crispy and gravely, and yet so smooth. And, that's *especially* during the "ughh"'s. Although I can get why it can be grating. Also ayyyyyyy, Jojolion, excited for the final issue next month?
I fucking died when the chat was memeing the "13% of the population holds the debt" shit Lmao
Timestamp?
@@BradKohlenberg 19 30
Banks do look at assets as well. Income of course determines your borrowing power but is hampered by those carry more debt than assets. On the flip side, those who have more assets also should see borrowing power increased as well.
It seems that disagreement is again not in the problem itself but in the universal/means-tested dichotomy.
Sam's argument is basically that we want to help specific minorities, and by making policy universal we make it easier to pass. And it is not a huge problem that it would help some majority even more.
Steven's argument is that a means-tested program is always better, and if you want to help these minorities, it would be more effective to do a more direct approach.
But Sam and Steven deliberately avoided the political feasibility question, so they did not come to discuss disagreement itself, but some side points only.
The best help would be dropping the notion that most people need to go to college.
It’s a terrible lie, far too many people perfect for lucrative, enjoyable trades are lied to and told they need to go to massively overpriced schools to get a shot degree they likely won’t use.
Want to help minorities? Show them the actual opportunities they have, stop lying
Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, did Sam not contest with political feasibility by talking in terms of what Biden would be able to unilaterally push for? Is your notion that they didn’t go in depth enough on this? Or is this something else entirely?
See what you can accomplish just by washing your hair, Destiny?
o7
I wish Destiny would approach every debate with this kind of energy. He's usually SUCH a dismissive, arrogant, overly critical, defamatory jerk in the majority of the debates I've seen him participate in.
Oh would love to see one of those debate, is there any of those sort of debates you mentioned where he loses?
@Don oh no I didn’t even know the guy until this, I just would like to see him being arrogant and losing, think would be kinda funny, which is why I was asking for a link to one of those videos, so yeah, kind of missed a step there.
@@describedby_3953 i do like mr bonell, but most of these so called debates are unwatchable, since the debatees he engages with are oftentimes people of Jesse Lee Peterson caliber
Him only saying his name at the start already got me thinking that a Planet Documentary by Morgan Freeman was coming, but it was a nice introduction...
Being in favor of free college for all but not student loan forgiveness is like wanting to legalize weed but not releasing and expunging the records of people who are in prison for simple possession and/or other nonviolent weed offenses.
Unfortunately, both argue over a mostly meaningless point. :(
ALL this money should go into overhauling public education!! It’s failing to properly educate the population and requiring college due to how lacking students are with critical thinking! We are extending the childhood of young people when they should be ready for the world by 18! :/
We should get rid of summer vacation, lower school time hours to make it doable, promote working early, teach budgeting, nutrition, cooking, interpersonal skills, etc., and pull the Swedish system and combine it with the mindset that produces child prodigies (constant reading, learning, critical thinking, etc. at super young ages)!
I’d 100% agree on funding this to better our society, yet we just talk about supporting an awful, prolonged education system that wastes hundreds of thousands of dollars per student! :/
@@FuddlyDud we can’t just shove
All
Money into one thing. That sounds good on paper but it really isn’t a great solution. Our
Entire
Budget will never be education. Therefore, we can max out the portion that would be for education and take the forgiveness funds (which is already paid for) from somewhere else
@@MrMasterDebate
Of course, I never called for tons of money being spent on education. Hell, Sweden spends less education on us and they do WAY better than we do. :P
Why not focus more time on rooting out the poisoned root first before trimming the rotten leaves?
Again, I am more than happy to discuss debt...but after we solve the more pressing issue that will lead to millions more people in even worse situations. I really want to help the most people, not help much less while letting the poisoned root growing more rotten leaves. :/
The biggest beneficiaries of student loan forgiveness are not the old or young, black or white; it is the universities that aggressively increase tuition knowing that students will always accept any debt since there are little to no repercussions to taking it.
They've already done that. Even private student loans are federally backed; the risk was taken out decades ago in the eyes of universities and banks
“All you’re helping is further one class over another”
Wait, you just said you understand that people with wealth don’t need loans.
I do not think Destiny understands that all of us have wealth. It is either positive or negative. Rich kids typically are not taking out student loans. Due to their parent's positive wealth they either have the cash to pay for their child's tuition or they take out parental loans against their assets to which the debt is their parent's debt not their child's. This means the rich kid out of college has no debt and his wealth from the get go is in the positive realm. This also can be true for upper middle class as we are talking of people who are making 6 figure incomes.
We move down to the lower middle class and even if the family owns a house they more than likely do not have enough equity in the house nor enough cash to fund their child's college education and thus the child takes out student loans attached to themselves meaning that when they graduate they are in a huge negative wealth situation and even IF the economy is doing well and they are able to pay it off in a decade they are still nonetheless a decade behind in wealth building than that rich kid or even the upper middle class kid who income is again generating wealth from day one. That is a decade of compounded interest lost. NOW we add in economic downturns and that debt takes longer to pay off as well as you end up eating more interest, that decade could be stretched to two decades thus making you even further behind.
We then move down to lower incomes and add racial elements to it and the situation is no less fucked.
Plus potential income does not mean actual income.
Steven "there's a Twitter thread about it" bonnell
By the original author of the study…
@@nicolasbernal7692 Sure but didn't he criticise Hasan for LITERALLY the same shit before? Hasan gets stuff off Twitter too, often tikes from the actual reporters, but that hasn't stooped Destiny from slamming Hasan on it in the past
Destiny is so out of touch about student loan debt. I can tell you that student loan debts are a huge drag on me financially. It’s the case with many people I know, too.
What’s the point of listening to debates that try to refine the different arguments around student loan debt if you are just going to make a comment like this?
Yeah me too. If it wasn't for my student loan debt I would've probably had bought my house a year earlier.
Simply put. Who cares about student loans, colleges are scams anyway. By seeing them amount of dumb people the colleges are pumping out I say rid of them. If you decide to spent that much money on tuition thats your choice. If you decided to save your tuition and start hustling in the real world to get a head start thats your choice too.
Idk man, my fiancee got 0 financial help and went to a local university. She worked thru her gen eds and payed loans as she went. Then got full to mostly full rides off scholarships and essays. I was poor and got my pell grant to pay for an asc at a local college
@@andersondalmeus1406 lol right
Since national student loans in Canada changed to being distributed by the federal government, it has been better because we don't have to stress about choosing the wrong student loan provider bank who might screw us over LOL.
I'm not sure how this would be with other loan providers, but I love that the NSLSC loans are calculated by OSAP along with your grants. They take your info and give you want you actually need instead of just loading up on a big loan.
🇨🇦 another one - DJ Khaled
And that’s why Canada has a brain drain 🤷🏼 well just another contributor. Meanwhile even when the Americans made it harder for Indians and Chinese to get student visas and Canada and Australia took advantage of this by making it easier for foreigners to get students visas the US broke the record for the most student visas in 2019 despite it being harder and more expensive to obtain and study in the states 😂
@@MeanStreamFraudCast another loss again - Canadian Brain drain
This was really good! We need more conversations like this!
30:43 “Is my man winning?” How Twitch “Debate bro-sphere” sees a nuanced conversation between two good faith interlocutors. It’s not about a W all the time. Still better than the troll at 33:07 who is undoubtably a Crowder stan.
Soviet Crowderstan
You see this pretty much everywhere. It's all about winning rather than what's actually right in basically every area of human interaction.
@@lindenstromberg6859 right? Sad.
Good opportunity for Destiny and Co to learn a couple of things. Please repeat!
Oh no! It is Sam Seder. What a disaster!
;)
Akchually it's a fing nightmare
This was a good debate! Please do it again with him! You both went sufficiently in-depth in making your points. This is how debates actually move policy and public opinion forward.
Crazy that Sam understands this as the son of a lawyer. Poor people often have to get a job and start contributing to their parents' financial responsibilities immediately while middle to upperclass people have family support for the first few years of adulthood. That is a world of difference that can change the trajectory of someone's life.
The power of empathy combined with objectivity.
It's crazy that he understands that he's privileged?
@@nonstickmeat many people will do anything to rationalize the idea that they alone earned every last dollar or opportunity that came their way. People who have never been impoverished often don't understand the cascading nature of those economic pressures.
THIS! I'm one of those kids who not only have had to take care of my parents and other immediate family in my adult years but have now been hit by medical debt that's destroyed my life. I was counting on the student loan debt relief to survive. I'm screwed now.
And then you ask for data and get crickets. That world of difference is as fabricated as Sam's understanding of politics.
This was pretty awesome, im siding a bit more with sam. I couldn't go to college due to understanding my family needed income from me. Even after opening a business a lot of my dollars were sent home rather than building my business. Also, the lack of safety net...
@@radr819 thats why I said a bit more. Sam is more cognizant of the demand on the dollar of a individual without familial wealth. Even going so far as to point out those who can't complete their degree needing further assistance. Destiny has a better targeted approach, but doesn't account for as much disparity. Also, if it were free college it more than likely wouldn't be university. If you have familial wealth more than likely you won't be in cc.
@@radr819 the point is that even if largely people with a degree generally earn enough to make that degree worth, there is still a lot of poor people that failed to finish their degrees (far whatever reasons) or got degrees that turned out useless. And those people are economically shackled by their debt
@@radr819 Rich people take out student loans? I do not think people and this includes Destiny knows how this shit works. Rich people tend to either pay for it in cash or they take out parental loans that are attached to the parents assets such as a house they own. It is not straddled to the student. Those rich kids are not being straddle with debt not to mention Student Loans when we say this we are saying FEDERAL student loans not the shit tons of private student loans issue by banks. Those fall outside of the program.
I think Destiny's point was that with any degree, your potential lifetime financial growth will out perform a person with just a HS diploma. Yes, a family living paycheck-to-paycheck's potential to earn will not be the same as a family with generational wealth. Their "value of a dollar" will be treated differently on both sides. Both made some valid points.
College won’t ever be free because tax dollars you pay for not the government
Sam: I want to debate Steven.
Mom:we have Steven at home.
Steven at home:
1:01:11 oh yeah, I forgot about all the fraud by student loan servicers in USA. I remember reading about horror stories over the years.
Even when there wasn't fraud, the interest rates were/are horrific .
Love destiny but his fan base treats it like “debate boxing” rather than listening to the content.
Some mad debate tactics in the thumbnail man
"student loan debt is kind of drag" LOL dorkstiny is clueless
@@danoco6385 We know he's the guy Crowder won't debate.
Steven? That's the name of a person for whom Sam Seder is a nightmare.
This is like a really respectful father and son convo
Can’t we just call these “conversations” instead of a “debate”. This is the problem with CZcams.
Well, yes and no. This one could’ve been called a conversation. Good faith, good-natured, nuanced, low temperature, and frankly low stakes (because of all the agreement). But if we’re talking about an exchange between an alt-righter and either of these guys, or Sam and Crowder, etc., there is no way to avoid calling that a debate. I think it would be a mistake to assume good faith on the part of an alt-righter or Crowder. Certainly not good-natured, or nuanced, or low temperature, or low stakes. It’s just an intellectual gladiator fight to the death. That’s all it is.
@@gregoryodonnell3793 That's a very good point
A debate is a type of conversation. And there is a near infinite number of ways we could describe every human interaction.
How do you speed up Seder and slow down destiny lol
Imagine. It's better now than before
Sams speed is insufferable, its a huge reason why i stopped watching him
I run these at 2x and tab out, when he was on his first ramble I actually tabbed back in to speed the video up since yt sometimes just decides to slow down, still on 2x. uuurrrggghhhh
Good point
You need to program a bot that can recognize both Seder's and Destiny's voice and automatically change the video speed to what fits the best for you.
What's up with these thumbnails having both people doing the same thing?
Flexing their debate tactics
its the duality of man
Destiny has found a way to get an education by paying the teachers with exposure. Sad part is he makes his audience watch him fail assignments over and over.
I don't know much about Destiny but I'm a big fan of Sam. He really knows his stuff.
Failure is a important part of learning. Everyone fails many times in life. I don’t think it’s sad at all.
This is how you learn. Y’all are way too inclined to view these things like a UFC fight.
The left is debating each other to level up while Crowder and Shapiro work on isolating their echo chambers.
Destiny ain't left.
@@codycarson3832 lol
Hmm I may be in the lower 25% of earnings with a degree, but at least in my small bubble, there are a lot of us who got a degree in a field that isn't law/medical/computer science who struggle to pay off our debts. In terms of choosing racially who would get any debt forgiveness, yes I understand generational wealth gap, but as a mostly white male, my entire family has been at the bottom of the barrel on the wealth side for the last 5 generations. Yes, I know there's black families who are worse off, but that doesn't change the fact that many white, or in my case, asian/white families have no generational wealth.
Yeah sorry to say but you’re probably going to be a section of people left behind
Most solutions to crippling student loan debt won't favor a black person over you, be it a blanket student loan forgiveness or means tested one!
It's not choosing racially it's choosing based on wealth instead of income, so you would actually benefit more from Sam's proposal due to your household's lack of generational wealth.
@@timayjust Families like mine will catch the next generational wealth train, lol.
yea that's why we need to elect representatives with class based solutions, not race based.
Bro wtf everyone I know is in massive amounts of student loan debt. I went for two years and have 15K and it’s the biggest drag on my life and pretty much everyone I knows life
@Don i'm against canceling them and i live near the poverty line. when i graduated HS i didn't have 2 nickels to rub together and thus was unable to afford college. why should my tax dollars now go to subsidize college for those who were able to attend? is the govt. going to retroactively send people who couldn't afford college in the 90s and before to college, which is in practice no different than forgiving loans? and what of future generations? or is just this one generation the chosen ones who get a free ride on everyone else's buck?
15k isn't that much considering that the average college graduate' salary of around 40k.
It's pretty brutal as a poor white person to sit here and listen to people prattle on about how important it is to increase the wealth of bLACK families only. Almost seems like a good way to to sow division and increase animosity from one race against another...
Honestly the failure to grasp where universal helps everyone is just dumb. I’m sorry but anecdotes don’t prove your argument
As a working class white dude with a programming degree that never went anywhere (nearly 100k in debt) who won't get inheritance or anything, debt forgiveness would be the best thing I can think of outside of medicare for all. According to Destiny's argument, I would likely qualify based on my current income, how long its been since I graduated, number of kids, etc.
Not sure what kind of point Sam was specifically going for. To argue an all encompassing forgiveness is still a good idea, but to have it targeted in a way that benefits everywhere would work too. Just pick one and do it.
Sam hit the nail on the head with for-profit college. Went to DeVry (its accredited) and the degree is basically worthless. DeVry lost a class action lawsuit where they were found to have severely misleading marketing to hook people in. Despite all that, there is no debt relief I can apply for. Its ridiculous.
Diploma or bachelor ? What happened with your job search?
I went to community college for 2 years and then transferred into a mid-tier STEM state school. I saved a bunch of money and have good career prospects. Research BLS job growth stats for your prospective major and look at average earnings, if you can find them, for people of the same major who went to your college (my college releases an annual report). Go on indeed etc. and look at what jobs require your degree and what other things they want in a candidate as well as how many job listings there are in your area before you commit to a major.
@Don Yeah because it is not like an economy can swing a different direction in 4 years. Potential income does not mean actual income.
@Don I completely agree with you and not to mention how can our workers compete with workers of other nations who do have higher education like this.
This is what I like. When Destiny said that the methodology was flawed, he explained why it was flawed. When Sam Seder said the same, he didn't explain why it was flawed.
Thats because Sam said that Destiny was misunderstanding his point. Destiny was talking about something other than what Sam was for a while, so yeah, Destiny's argument was flawed because Sam wasn't talking about the same thing he was. 😂
I have a problem with how Destiny just went into this with blanket assumptions and not reviewing analysis and research beforehand. Instead he uses hypothetical test cases without regard to whether they actually represent reality.
And he also assumes that every college graduate is a doctor or lawyer therefore they will vastly overearn their debt. A tiny portion of graduates are doctors or lawyers, most make money in the 30-70k range (nurses, teachers, managers, etc.). These people aren't building wealth to begin with with the cost of modern living, let alone having additional debts in the range of 500+$ per month on top of everything.
@@Blight1 And this is the reason why you should mean test education subsidies, if you are going to spend such amount of money with the intention to hel the poor shouldnt be used by those who cam pay themselves.
Subsidies for everyone no matter what in high end education would end up in money going to the high end of your population
@@agustin4741 Means testing is inefficient and always results in people missing out who shouldn't. Also, this is just debt forgiveness... everyone affected by it obviously has student debt, so they probably are not *that* wealthy. If you're really worried about this though, simply taxing wealthy people to cover the difference in cost is a much more efficient way to go about it.
Didn't he quote the main research that Sam cited in the beginning? Did he address the research directly even quoting someone involved? This is a really dishonest take
@@Blight1 yup, i am a teacher and its very annoying listening to him claim that a degree is just going to magically put you into upper class. Degrees are also super saturated now too making it nearly impossible to leverage. They dont set you apart anymore.