Russell Stannard - What is God's Eternity?
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
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Could God be eternal? For God to be eternal, God would exist outside of time, would not experience time's flow. God would have no past, present or future. As Boethius said in the 6th Century, "Eternity, then, is the whole, simultaneous and perfect possession of boundless life". God's relationship to time helps assess God's existence and discern God's essence.
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I need to listen to it a second time
This was so fascinating. I loved listening to him. Excellent interview.
If there is such a "thing" as god it won't operate along human logic, 99% of the times I hear people talking about god, even intellectuals, I hear description of its antropomorphic behavior...
Humans have no logic btw
God wouldn’t act exactly according to human logic and we definitely couldn’t grasp God but we could say that we can grasp certain truths about him through reason since reason would be universal. So we can definitely reason about God. We can also ascribe characteristics to him in an analogous way. When we say God has intellect that intellect may not be univocal in meaning to intellect in us, but it can be analogical. And this is how most Classical Theistic thinkers thought about this kind of stuff. I would agree that we can’t really comprehend God but at the same time reason is universal and we can understand certain truths about him. And then you could also use more anthropomorphic language to describe him in a sort of analogous way so that we can sort of speak about him in a way we understand, even if imperfect. The Bible does this plenty of times, God’s anger could be seen as analogous to his Justice, or his face could be seen as analogous to his Essence. Some Psalms describe him as having wings, it doesn’t mean he literally has wings, but these are often poetic elements used to convey certain messages through figurative language.
I think Russell wanted to say " that question is irrelevant" more than once
While this argument does not budge my lack of belief in a god, I like hearing them try to prove with words that a god exist.
I am not sure that is an actual thing being argued for. At least in this clip. It seems to be an assertion or presupposition of the discussion.
Maybe try to consider your assumptions when dealing with ideas.
He’s not trying to do that here. The existence of God is already presupposed for this discussion and if you want to see them argue for the existence of God you’ll have to go elsewhere. But that’s fine, not every video has to prove everything you’re presupposing for it. That would be rather tedious.
Excellent exposition !
Sounds a lot like God is running the simulation. I love these discussions.
God doesn't run anything special, the simulation is you thinking there's a simulation.
great conversation. no comment. I am a muslim believer but I like all these series of closer to truth.
Yes we all have to be eager and open to learn.
One of the best suras ever The Sincerity AL IKHLAS 112
Say Allah who is ONE
Allah, the eternal refuge
He neither begats nor is born
Allah has no equivalent
I don't like the block theory of time, but I can see how it easily fits with Einstein and the general claim that God knows the future. To that extent, Russell's analogy works. To Robert's point, it doesn't fit with regard to our effecting God.
The classical answer: God is impassible. That is, He *cannot* be effected in any shape or form. God is not subject to causation and therefore is not in time (which is the correct order--not that God is not in time and therefore not subject to causation).
In one sense, that *does* render God remote. But in another, it does not. If you deny the block theory and hold the classical view of time, God is not "in" in the present, because God is not in time at all. God is entirely simple and not subject to causality. In fact, God is the root of all causality. He is, if you like, the Principle of Causality (in jargon, the Act of Acts). Thus, anything that is or has been or will be, only is has been or will be because God was at the root of that causing it to so be. Thus God is rather literally closer to you than you are to yourself, insofar as you are related to yourself by a sequence of parts making up a whole, but God is wholly and entirely present to each of your parts and to the whole of you; indeed, those very relations that constitute you only exist because God is causing them. So, again *literally*, God is closer to you than you are to yourself.
Or as theologians have long said, God is both imminent and transcendent.
Stannard's analogy of a God viewing a video of reality while also being in the video only works if you posit two Gods. God is both immanent and transcendent, but in order to accommodate a block universe, you would have to split God into two separate beings.
Time is Consciousness. That is why when you are in a coma, you have no idea of Time.
The truth is we don’t know and the people who say they do, have only subjective experiences to back up the claim.
I respect the dialogue because it was constructive conversation
The block universe and knowing everything makes me wonder if God is not bored. But perhaps he only feels love and all other states are the absence of love which we can feel but he not.
It is my thought that time is an anthropomorphic construct that emerges from the human mind's inability to experience the infinite bulk of objective existence.
I view my whole life as preparation for spending eternity with Him. I’m 74, a believer, father...great grandfather...and I’ve never been more aware of what I’m learning...every...single...day. When my wife passed on, I studied to be, and became, a Chaplain. Now I have a ‘ministry of presence’ to help others no matter what their faith is...or isn’t. I do not like the term religion - I consider Christianity a relationship & NOT a religion. Jesus brought the Kingdom of God to any/all of us with a new Covenant freeing us from the human-made laws noted in the Old Testament. He doesn’t require anything for our salvation EXCEPT to god on believing’ in Him...and follow His commands, all of which are based on love. If you’re a non-believer & have read this far, I encourage you to start reading about intelligent design. Hugh Ross, an astro physicist, has some great science-based books that will catch your attention. You can buy Kindle versions and “Creator and the Cosmos” is an excellent one to start with. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Oh! Look for a church that follows/teaches scripture and not it’s own dogma and man-made rules & laws.
Amén, Hallelujah.
What a great interviewer
LOVE THIS!!
Best interview in the series.
I like the questions he asks
There is something missing in his discussion. In quantum mechanics, several events (states) can coexist and their evolution over time is controlled by the wave-function. In a sense, different possibilities coexist and we only see one possibility evolve, but there exist many possible states corresponding to configurations and realities (with different probabilities of happening). We only see one happening.
Where are these states taking place that we can't observe? Other dimensions?
@breandadavis3168 Edward Witten, widely regarded in the physics community of Einstein's successor, said that "extra-dimensional geometry determines the characteristics of the elementary particles." So it is likely that a higher dimensional reality above and beyond our 4D spacetime does exist. Hugh Everetts' many-worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics, widely accepted now as the true interpretation, asserts that there are infinite future world lines or realities. Perhaps you can say they exist in separate dimensions. One book I recommend is Brian Greene's "Until the End of Time" Great book.
What? yeah there may be other possibilities but only one of them can happen you can’t have 2 possibilities happening?
He has various other videos where he goes into part of this
What russell explains here, is what the Buddha thaught us. More than 2000 years ago.
Very thought provoking! My problem with the “Block Universe” model, is it assumes ONE future ie. a single worldline. Yet, if you subscribe to the Many Worlds Interpretation, (which seems to be the dominant interpretation these days) there are many futures/worldlines, indeed almost infinite! Yet, this version of ‘me’ only sees one. How could God then distinguish this ‘me’ from all the other identical ‘me’ versions with different futures?
I much prefer Carlo Rovelli’s ‘relational’ model of time, which says there is no universal time, that time is different for every individual. So, a ‘Block Universe’ perspective as a ‘view from nowhere’ makes no sense. In this way, every particle, every interaction, every person exists in its own individual time bubble. This seems to have more possibilities for novelty , (which makes it more risky, but more creative), than a deterministic Block Universe.
Both could be true, but we would need a better descriptor than “block”.
clemsonalum98 Yes.. though I think the problem is more than in the name. The Block Universe doesn’t explain the arrow of time, why, though time may flow at different rates (eg. the problem of simultaneity), it never flows backwards. The comparison of time with space, as just another dimension IMO is too simplistic.
Nothing stopping a multiverse existing at each instance of time, splitting off into it’s own new line with “blocktime” - hence a tree of blocktime universes
qualityposts2011 Yes... I very much agree - nice image! Im saying that in such a ‘branching’ or ‘hairy’ Block Universe, looking back, ‘my’ one world-line would have been lost in the millions of other (identical ‘me’) world-lines as seen from a Gods eye view outside time. So, looking back, God (or a Being outside Time) could not have known that I (ie this version of me), with this history would end up here. God could not have foretold ‘my’ future (which is now ‘my’ past), because He only sees the millions of world lines, not my one. Did you ever see the movie “Spartacus”, where the crowd hide Spartacus by everyone claiming to be Spartacus?
uremove I wanted to add the words “God is outside ALL the timelines” He/IT is outside all of this “creation” and Time is a Created phenomena, NOT a “given”. Hence God being outside can see Everything all points intime, at all branches. Omnipotent, Omniscient.
Really great stuff. I can't make myself buy into religion, but since I simply don't have the enough facts, I'll keep listening.. 😉
There is no need to ''buy into religion'' at all.
God is no more separate from the guy down at the pub or at the football than some ''religious dude''.
As far as the relationship being the other way, the ''religious guy'' may be much further from God (so to speak) than the guy having a pint at his local pub.
Just because religions have become 99% bullshit doesn't mean that God is bullshit.
Wow this made a big impact on me. I’m going to have to watch this one again
We are moving through space at about 2 million kms per hour. That path through space would be our worldline in a block universe, with each of our contributions being extremely tiny wiggles vast path.
Another point, if God can oversee the entire block universe, then it must be a higher dimensional entity. Our main theory that includes extra dimensions is string theory (which is not so popular these days). But would God be only in the fifth dimension? Surely God would then be in the eleventh dimension. Then again, if we are using the Bible as a source, God was basically an ancient war deity who occasionally demanded blood sacrifice. There might be a more sophisticated explanation.
Food for thought for those familiar with Protestant division between Calvinism and Arminianism. The block universe is consistent with Calvinism and is also consistent with the all knowing and eternal God. Just something to chew on for Christians interested in some of the deeper theological issues.
I would have loved to hear the question, not of "how can we affect God?", not even "how can God affect us and change the future?", but "can God, in its transcendent being, change the past?"
I'd be interested in his view on God as a disciplinarian.
If we accept time as being intrinsicly linked to 3d space, or 3+1 (which I do), and God knows our "future" transgressions, is there really a need for hell? Should the religious not expect Hitler to be punished?
Maybe heaven and hell are both just the experience of your own life from an eternal perspective.
It all depends on what ONES definition of GOD is or will be.
What I don't understand is that if all-time exists simultaneously, why do I experience this present moment rather than another. Why do I have the experience of being 35 years old rather than the experience of being 6 or 60 years old? Why do we experience this present moment? Why is the block universe partial to the present?
It's because we're inside the block so to speak. The simultaneity is not a simultaneity within our time
Very few atheists who have never read holy books if any.secondly ther are other categories of questioning reality ad wanting answers without being atheists.to claim to know of the existence of gods or none existence is egocentric arrogant ad un intelligent inspire of university awards religion may look like earlier justifications of slavery ad racism.without science there was no logical way to disprove those beliefs if u believe ther are chosen people of god surely one needs a mental asylum
@@setiandromeda6091 agreed. There is no god
@@myles5158 what purpose is there whether there are gods or no gods.?does having or not having gods serve any practical purpose?
God's eternity is simply his eternal existence. Eternity is not time but everlasting existence from past to future. Time has begun within eternity and will continue through out eternity.
Very brilliant Mr Russell!
God can be; both changed in time, and also exist outside time (in a 5th dimension). Just because you know the unfolding of all events does not mean it will change your actions. Knowledge and action are not the same. God can experience time the same way we do; concurrent to his higher dimensional experience. Does his higher dimensional awareness somehow void his lower dimensional awareness? No.
The only thing that can exist in and out of time is self awareness. We are God in human form.
How do people know gods sex and gender?
In either case "god" all knowing or not how to account for their actions and all the suffering, Did god know about the Holocaust, guinea worms, amputation?
It's like god is all powerful but also free of responsibility it's very hard to understand.
Parents and teachers try to stear young people to make and plan goals because they know what can happen with peer pressure. They see the future for them
They have a name for it, precognition many people do and have dreams where they see future events!
Prove it or do not follow people sayings and tellings😊❤️😉
Okay, so then which horse will win the Kentucky Derby?
The fastest one
This is so deep. Goodnes!
we humans may live in a relative universe. I'm not to sure that god does (if there is a god, which I don't believe there is). One good thing about having a mind that can describe a three dimensional world is that you can make up stories, like god. That doesn't make time a dimension as described by length height depth. Whether or not it is a block universe or a temporal universe is decided not by a god, but by man. Man can tell any story he wants because that falls under the creative thinking part of human existence. Man can outwit an animal and then trap it. Man can tell you how this works.And, you can do it yourself. Art allows god to play a part in the drama. Like scrooge and his demons. Like Joseph and his seven lean cows and seven fat cows. Like Michelangelo, Dali, Mozart, and Pollock. Artists create rhythm harmony contrast, pattern and real world impossibilities. Like Moses writing his own Torah. Like Mark Twain in a school room describing addition and subtraction. He could through his poetic description convince you that 2+2=5. In an poetic world an artist can create Alice in Wonderland, or A Looking Class World. Man can even convince you that we live in a cube universe and all events are occurring now. Man can convince you that Epstein was arrested put in jail in a secured cell then kill himself by strangulation. Ah, nothing like a good story.
I'm a nondualist, so the answers are a bit different. To me, God is the consciousness behind every eye, the experiencer of every experience - so in one sense God does have a temporal view of the universe as we experience it temporally. God is also the consciousness generating the entire dream - so there is a transcendent view as well. All of this reality is God experiencing God... you and I (and everything else) are forms of that, and most of us are confused as to what we are. The illusion is 'the self' - that sense of separation we have. God is limitless eternity having the experience of finiteness, temporalness, and limitedness.
A single action that never began and will never end.
A place without space wherein time is only a verb.
Nice answer. Close to my feelings of G-d.
@Sara C Ok - but to do so requires that you have a mystical experience (which is the experience of the unity of everything, Ego death). There are many methods to have one of them... Jesus chose the 'wander in the desert for 40 days / 40 nights', Buddha chose meditation. Mine was induced with magic mushrooms. I've heard 5meo-dmt is also a window into this understanding.
Whether you believe me or not is of no consequence, the timing for when someone has an awakening experience (or if they do at all) is up to God the transcendent. It is possible to experientally 'know' in a way that cannot be 'proven', and I'm far from the only person that has had one of these mystical experiences.
Be careful though, this experience is a one-way door. Once you have seen the other side you can't un-see it, and it will have ramifications for the direction of your life.
@Sara C
@Bob Brenton
i didnt see Bob telling others they have the wrong perspective of GOD...... he merely explained how He perceived the "concept of GOD"
and, being of the same species as Bob Brenton, is that how you see yourself ?????, a sexually driven, survival driven monkey ??????
and how is it, that some non-existent fictional entity is a criminal ???? or how that non-existent fictional entity allows suffering and horrible diseases and deformities and babies born dead ?????
since Bob has a fake-assed god, maybe you could step in and fix all the cruelty in the world..... like the kind of cruelty you subjected Bob to....?
your reality doesnt have room for discussion...... you want to force your reality in the place of another person's reality........ a seemingly impossible task.
could it be, that you just got all emotional, rather than philosophical or scientific ????
i saw insults, not facts.
@Donald McRonald
sums it up pretty well, from our frame of reference..... are you Hopi ?
God is Speceless timeless Immaterial Conceptual by Nature, God Created Time space and Matter, Russell is Correct, if God is in Time, then he is not God, , God is not in Time. God mite no the Future, but we are still Free agents but God knows the Destination what we are ultimately going too choice, it's the Materialists as the Problem with Free will
No .for an astronaut observibng from space that person in NY has not yet put
his first foot on the stair. The tape watching analogy was very wrong.because god would be lookin at himself looking at himself.
eternal regress.
Dos sucesos pueden no ser simultáneos para dos observadores siempre q los sucesos tengan lugar en diferentes puntos. Sin una persona está en el escalón número 1 de la escalera, está allí para todos los observadores. El razonamiento q hace es incorrecto.
@Sara C
Pues resulta que soy Cristiano, pero puedo pensar por mi mismo. Un saludo Sara.
If god creates an eternity how is that eternity inferior to the god?same if god can create it ad he is eternal what makes god to not having been created? Is our human quest for cause faulty?what entertains or motivates god? Why god ad where ad how god?
If god knows the past present ad future it means sort of he does nothing.what then is a prayer for?why all. emails to god? Do we have freedom of choice ad if none why say god judges ad yet everything is known about me from beginning to end.coz if I can change anything god knows then god does not know everything. Exactly what is god upto.?yet he cant be upto anything coz everything is done ad nothing else can be done
Is it that what people call god especially the judeo xtian theology is absolutely false ad if there is a god or gods they are totally different.is it so difficult to disprove wichcraft to its believers ad same with modern religion as an offshoot of wichcraft? If as we agree there was something before the big bang what was before god or gods?what purpose does our struggle to create ad get to know god serve in the scheme of things?
Iifanything ad if at all it's only after understanding all there is in the universe that we can now start focusing in beyond the universe otherwise our quest is simply flawed ad a waste of energy
If God is Omniscient, why would he need to interact with his creation in any point in time. He already knew before the creation, what his creation was going to do. He created humans knowing they were going to commit all these sins. He created millions if not billions of humans, knowing he would torture them in Hell-Fire for eternity. Why would a lovely God with Omniscience do that? I would call this a contradiction, or a paradox at best.
Created for love. God will not torture anyone for eternity. No fire. Just separation from God for those who want that separation.
I believe that this man is the true believer, because I know that very well that it is difficult for this thing to say a man who did not see with his eyes and his cognitive tools this fact, that is why God sent the prophets on the path of the life line in order to correct only the general line and people have the freedom to choose in the end.
Note also in Islam, God talks about all this life in the past tense, it ended for him without time.
His Block Universe explanation along with the explanation of how simultaneity in GR works in order to justify God knowing the future is plain abuse.
explain
It always confuses me to see smart people that are convinced that freewill is compatible with an all knowing god, It sounds completely illogical
I agree with you but they could make an argument God is temporal and is all knowing of current time but not future, or something along those lines. I don’t see how they could say God is eternal and maintain it though, and it seems God is indeed eternal so their argument falls apart.
The answer could be hidden somewhere. Keep looking!
If you're talking about the Christian God then it seems to me that not only doesn't he know the future, he is hopelessly naive with respect to the creatures that he gave life to. Telling Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from that tree... And, doing such a poor job of endowing mankind with any sort of responsible ethics and morality that he had to flood the earth to get rid of all the bad (his creations) apples. It seems that the god of the bible is at best a complete fool.
Brud No 1
I am from a Muslim background, so it’s the same stories
You aren't thinking extra-dimensionally that's why it appears illogical to you.
He is right. God must see the future being omnipresent or at any moment being able to be outside, looking in, upon the whole. If indeed the universe is a 4D space/time continuum. All while simultaneously being in space/time through the Son, or by Holy Spirit, if necessary.
I believe this can be true without the necessity of having a Calvinistic or Deterministic view of reality. God can still have middle knowledge. Or say things as "if than" propositions.
He can have propositional middle knowledge while still maintaining ceaselessly perfect foreknowledge, and we can still be said to make real free choices in time. God can know what will happen and what could happen, "if, than". If something certain happens or another possibility could have happened, than He also knows that which could be. And in the case of that, He would have known 'that' something else within His perfect foreknowledge . Predestination being that which He has chosen to undeniably be, by His great love to determine by His sovereign decree with glory and honor, through His utter power forever . Amen
I call it Deadpoolism. The theory that prayer to God is analogous to a fictional character breaking the fourth wall and interacting with the author.
God's eternity is a male lion killing all the cubs of a small pride of lions so he can force the mothers to procreate his offspring.
I am Muslim. Don't put our limitations on God. This is plausible and brilliant.
If God knew everything and all that’s going to happen he would be bored as hell. Where does that idea even come from? A God who knows of all the suffering of the children of this universe, passively enjoying time passing by. Oh yes…because they get a better place in heaven. Come on !
This host thinks he's really smart. He's unbearable. Stennard is always a treasure.
I cant believe 2 Intelectuals are talking about god its ridiculous
More utter nonsense about God... who?