The Secret to a flat 3d printer bed
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- čas přidán 30. 04. 2022
- I've been on a quest to improve the flatness of my 3d printer bed to improve my 3d printing. I learned the hard way several things:
1. How not to do it and get a terrible variance
2. How to remove an adhesive on magnet from the base safely
3. A key way to greatly improve the flatness and variance of your bed
I test a fantastic, locally produced, 3d printer cast aluminum bed plate from Precise Printer Parts (I highly recommend it): preciseprinterparts.com/Print...
I also test a great PEI printer bed plate from Fulament called Fulabed 2 (I highly recommend it): fulament.com/
If you wish to purchase the plastic scraper, it can be purchased at Amazon where I receive a commission that is applied to content creation for this site: amzn.to/3ndNv8M
The military green ABS and black ASA filament: www.paramount-3d.com/?ref=o45...
The video follows the 3 bullets above. Please don't do what the video initially presents, it's not the correct way. But you should get some good tips to improve your 3d printing.
I review the Precise Printer bed and the Fulament build plate. Please note that I personally paid for everything in this video. - Věda a technologie
The need for that last 5 to 10% of perfection/accuracy will always be the most annoying and difficult part of any project. And honestly is easily skippable 99% of the time. But i always appreciate those that attempt it.
Thanks! Believe it or not, I just consider this "ball park". I was targeting < 0.05 variance. So close, but not quite there.
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop to finish at .05, the build plate would have to be much more precise, then each layer brings it's own imprecision: plate, glue, magnet, flex plate.
after all .05 is only 50 micron! , I guess you would still need a bed mesh to print on the whole surface and have anice and shinny bottom
It looks like you truly enjoyed the process of discovering how you could get your build plate to be more precisely level. I learned several things. Thanks for taking the time to put this together and sharing it.
Nice to see some ingenuity regarding the placement of the bed thermistor.
The idea will come in handy when designing multi zoned/heat zoned beds for more precisioned/zoned targeted small build areas for smaller prints in the future.
Not sure if "truly enjoyed" was dripping with sarcasm or not (it should be), but I was very disappointed with the initial outcome and spent a week procrastinating removing the magnetic sheet that I had applied incorrectly. Hopefully others will gain from this. I never thought about large multi zone beds, but this would be useful. In the future, I plan on having the printer wait until the top probe hits the correct temps prior to starting the print. But that is for another day. I originally thought it was a gimmick, but it's turning out to be very useful. Thank you for watching!
Picked a 250mm plate up myself a few weeks ago. Love the endstops, the thermistor cutout, the etchings to make centering your heating pad dead simple, etc. Mine was also exceptionally flat.
It's a beautiful plate. Very well made. The endstops are a game changer! Make sure that magnet is cured on the flattest surface you can find! Thank you for watching!
Just wanted to say a huge thanks for this video. I am just finishing up my first Voron V2.4 and was able to get a 0.079mm variance thanks to your tips. Cheers!
Great to hear! Thank you for watching!
Great tip. I had the feeling that the magnetic layer could end up messing with the flatness.
you proved it and solved it.
I think the biggest issue here was actually me and the way I assembled the bed. I'm pretty sure many others both before and after me have flat bed issues that are related to how the bed was assembled. Hopefully this will help future builders as well as others that need to fix their beds. Thank you and thanks for watching!
I've actually removed my magnets entirely and gone back to clips. It's less convenient but works out much more consistent for me
So that's very interesting. I've wondered multiple times about doing this. Over time, I seem to get changes in my bed mesh and I'm convinced it related to the glue. If I may ask, how big is your print bed? My main concern about doing this has been about if the clips are strong enough on a 250mm bed.
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop 235mm, it’s on an Ender 3 V2. I still have a little remaining glue around the outside which I guess helps and I almost never use the entire print bed. I’m actually thinking of moving to a Voron 0
So glad I learned of this bed! Many thanks!
It's a beautifully machined bed plate! Thank you for watching!
Very Good video. Great voice over and filming. Great content. Liked and subscribed👍. Looking forward to you videos
I hope you find some of the others useful as well. Thank you very much!
thanks for the advice!
and thanks for another great video!
Thank you for watching!
I was curious about that company and I am glad I came across your video. I wanted to get a new bed as the creality bed can't go over 100c and need something more flat and durable. This sounds like is the answer to my endeavor. Thank you!
The make beautiful beds. I can attest to their quality. They did not send me that to review, I paid for it.
I always find your videos on target for my issues. Constant melted probes and surfaces if the print bed. I narrowed my down to the magnetic sheet and or a warped x rail. The aluminum plate is MIC-6 grade. Too bad they dont sell superflat magnetic sheets. an option is embedded magnets in the plate itself. Thanks for doing some of the work for me. Love it.
Thank you! In this case, I actually think the original magnet was fine. The problem was me and how I attached the magnet. Ad long as the adhesive cures under pressure on a very flat surface, this should come out great. This was purely my mistake. Up until this point, I failed to see the need for beds with embedded magnets, but they suddenly seem like they are worth trying. Thank you for watching!
Dude that’s such a nice bed. I’d have used a 5mm garolite plate on it for flatness. Magnetic flex plates are convenient but not flat enough for large parts.
I really need to try garolite soon. It's a really nice bed. They make great parts. Thanks!
Great information as always. Sorry you had to go through that with the first magnetic bed but I am sure many others will benefit now from your experience.
I hope so. It's actually something I was wondering about for some time. So it was a pain, but I'll always do this correctly next time. And, no more bed mesh. Thank you!
thank you for shareing your experience 👍
Thanks for the kind words!
This gives me a new idea to flatten the magnetic base but without removing it. WIth 120 degrees celsius, put a glass over the magnetic base and weights in the zone more convex. This is not tested yet.
That just might work. I actually thought about something similar AFTER I did all this work. I was going to take out the back panel, unscrew the bed and try to flip it out the back onto glass. I think the cables I have are too short to support that. One other thing. Look into gantry backers. The curve you see are actually a combination of things. One of those being the dissimilar metals on the gantry curving in the heat.
Excellent video! And kudos for showing the screwup and how you fixed it. So many videos just show installations where everything goes right.
One thing I wondered about...should you have slathered the top thermistor in thermal paste before putting on the magnet? Without a really good thermal connection, it makes sense that the thermistor is going to heat up more slowly. The thermistor should eventually reach the actual top temperature though.
And of course you have to take thermistor variation and accuracy into account to really know what reality is. If I get one of these plates I might consider leaving that channel open and sliding a more accurate thermocouple (with thermal paste) in there, capture the difference in temp readings at different temp settings, and create a custom thermistor profile for Klipper.
Anyway, thanks again, and I'm with you - an actually flat bed is preferable to mesh leveling. Either you won't need mesh leveling or you'll need a lot less of it (if you're looking for really flat party). Either way it's a good thing.
Funny thing. I actually had a tube of thermal paste sitting on the work bench as I had full intentions of using it. But, yet another mistake, I forgot to use it as I was so busy with everything else, especially shooting video....I would recommend the use of thermal paste. That said, it's working petty well without it. Best of luck with your improvements. The key to this video (and you seem to recognize it, but some are not) is the flattest surface you can find to make sure that magnetic plate is flat. Thank you so much for watching!
Before buying a new plate, what one can do to try to improve flatness is to correct the bed by removing it and bending against the high spots with your knee. To test progress along the way, you can use a machinist's straight edge and feeler gauges to measure the imperfection and improvement over time. Start with low pressure and gradually increase until you can start measuring a difference in the flatness.
Also a feeler gauge has another use in 3D printing and that is to use it for bed leveling rather than a piece a paper.
You are braver than I!
Great video. Concerning the top thermistor and its readings never hitting the same values as the bottom thermistor - would this be a case for using a temperature offset in the SuperSlicer? That way you could get them closer. (At least as far as I understand it.)
Thank you!
A really good question.. I don't use SuperSlicer and I could not find documentation that could explain it to me clearly. But I think it's relatively easy in Klipper to get the software to heat the bed until the temperature of the top sensor hits the correct value and ignore the heater sensor as it normally operates.
Holy 🐮 Cow. That looked super fun.
Ha! If you like suffering. Thank you for watching and the comment!
Great video!, im just waiting for my voron kit to arrive and ill use this knowledge to get a nice flat bed so .. thank you much!. Im curious ... how did you manage to cut the holes for the screws so precisely?
I didn't. I believe any bed sold for a Voron is pre-drilled and tapped. Both these beds were. Thank you!
What is everyone's best guess on the stacked tolerances of the pei, spring steel, magnet, and adhesive flatness is? I cannot agine the magnet is nearly as flat of the machined cast aluminum plate
Based on my observations starting with the worst (no actual tolerances):
1. Magnetic sheet adhesive
2. Rough PEI print surface
3. Magnet
4. Gantry
Dude, the thermistor on top is a game changer in my book. Odd thing is I just learned the difference today, mod bot, had a video on bed temps and the diff between the bottom and top, is significant. Taking that reading from the top then, I’d think would allow 100C to be just that, 100C. Damn I shouldn’t have watched this. Now I’m going to have to get new bed’s 😂
It's a really nice bed. I would not buy another without it!
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop I couldn’t agree more. I definitely intend to upgrade and I think this one’s it.
Hi mate. Truly useful vid. Could you advice how to display an extra temps in that window? Pi temp in particular
Have a look at the 1st tip in the video: czcams.com/video/-DcdVez_v5Q/video.html
Thanks for the comment!
Wow that was nice! I've been thinking about lapping my printer bed. I've also wondered about the temperature of the top of the bed, when I checked it it's always a little cool as of course it would be. Having that the mister on the top is really good.
I meant to say that I'd be surprised if the thickness of the magnetic sheet is any better than plus or minus 20 microns which is what you're measuring compared to the bare plate.
I really don't think it's the aluminum bed. My guess is that it's the most accurate thing on the printer (hot or cold). I'm pretty sure its more of a factor of the magnet, the quality of the flexible plate and the gantry itself. In another video I switched to a single rail on the x-axis and the bed magically got flatter as well. Thanks for watching!
Seeing this on the discord right before I start assembling my own. Absolutely great! Other must-watch videos before assembling? [things not covered in manual]
Glad I could help! So here comes a shameless plug...subscribe to my channel and browse around. There is a pretty long list of videos that could provide some help/tips. If you are building from a kit, I think these recommendations in this video will help make that plate better/flatter. That said, Nero and Steve Builds are quite popular.
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop My 2.4R2 300mm is finished and I have a variance < 0.09. My unklicky probe is allowed a 0.003 deviation. Not much worse than you, thanks!
[Actually it's only one point that's 0.05 lower than the rest, at X30 Y150.]
@@iniqy Thank you for reporting back. That's great to hear and I'm glad you've now got a flat bed! Most importantly... congratulations on the new printer! Have fun with it!
great video! i'm considering building my first voron 2.4. wouldn't it be a better option to go for custom made iron plate instead of aluminium one?
Thanks a really good question. I would wonder about it's ability to transfer heat, my cast iron pan takes a long time to heat up. And it would need to be cast iron for stability with the temperature changes. I suspect it would work. Interesting idea.
HI, Quick tip for removal of glue stuck on the bed plate. Try PAM Cooking Spray. It worked for me. Spray it on and thick, add paper towels sprayed with the cooking spray and cover the area you want to remove - let it sit for 15-20 min (or longer for better results) - remove the towels and use scotch brite pad to remove the gum. wipe dry and use acetone to remove the cooking spray. Googone is good, but cooking spray is in almost every kitchen. I use the cooking spray for everything that has stickers. Let me know how it works for you. Warm Regards - Joegeeks
Thanks for posting this. It appears to be a great idea. However, I think you will understand when I state that I hope to never do this again! But if I do, I will try PAM!
I wonder if you even need a super flat bed to begin with. What if you used an average bed, and just let the magnet rest on a flat glass surface after application?
That would probably end up being pretty flat. That's my guess anyway. Thanks!
If the magnet is glued on first it's a lot easier as the bed can't wobble around on the thermistor from the heart pad.
I fully agree. Hopefully others will gain from seeing my mistakes.
those backstops look like an amazing idea, that is a place that is super annoying with my 350mm 2.4, Once you have had the backstops on a Prusa MK3S for plate centering its hard to not have something.
I bet WD40 would have worked on that glue too, I had to get VHB tape off something related to a printer and nothing got it off and then A google search said to try WD40 and it just for whatever reason practically liquified the VHB tape. Never really thought of it as a solvent.
Those back stops are fantastic. I have another printer that lacks them. These really make a difference.
I never even considered WD40. That probably would have worked great. Thank you for the tip!
So basically your "secret" is to purchase brand new bed, heater, and full set of new PEI sheet, right? Thanks for sharing the "secret" which no one knows! :D :D
No, the trick is how you apply the magnetic sheet and let it cure. It will cure in the shape of the surface used. I used a new bed plate to start with a known quality of flatness. An effort to rule that out of the discussion as I was suspect of my original plate. Turns out it was not the plate.
Thanks for the video, was wondering about your flatness when bed was heated. Theoretically if if the entire bed was the exactly the same temp should have zero warping. Insulation?
The bed, since it's cast aluminum and not rolled or forged, really doesn't change when heating. There are some very minor changes, but I believe it's due to the glue and magnetic sheet as far as I can tell.
What is the deviation when heated to 110°C? My bed then has around .430mm (350mm-V2.4) after 1-2 hours, but I'm not sure how much of it is the bed and how much the x-gantry (double MGN9)... I run a bed mesh to print and it's going quite well overall, but I am still thinking about possible improvements there. Thanks for your great videos!
My apologies, but I don't remember. However, have a look at this: czcams.com/video/i8a2-Jd-dIo/video.html
I eliminated one of the MGN9 rails and the bed appeared to get flatter due to less heat expansion in the gantry. The measurements (before and after) are presented in the video. It would appear to me that backer plates could improve that even more. Thank you for watching and the kind words!
I plan on buying one of these. Not to be nit picky, but it would be nice if they had an option for a ground surface for ultimate flatness.
They did have a option for increased accuracy at some point. But honestly, I'm not sure it's needed. The magnet and glue we attach to the bed will most likely negate the benefit of the increased accuracy. Those are already not as accurate as the bed plate. That said, it's a beautiful bed.
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop I really like the idea of a top mounted bed sensor. And you're right about the build plate negating any accuracy gained by surface grinding.
I plan on purchasing all my future beds from them. It's a great bed. I have the heating rate set to 80 vs the usual 60 that is recommended. The bed has not changed shape at all. And the bed temps at the surface is really nice, but the built in bed plate stop is a huge benefit. It makes me want to replace my other beds just for that feature.
You're assuming that the thickness of the magnet and the spring steel plate are uniform when likely they are not. Its why imo these precision plates are a bit of a waste of money.
I think it's a common belief, and I've never seen any specifications for the sheets. But I actually believe it's the glue that's used that has the biggest impact. Nothing really wrong with the glue, but making sure the glue sets while pressure is applied on the flattest surface possible is really the trick. I'm convinced with a little more pressure and applying the magnetic sheet before the heater on a very flat surface should make up for much of any inconsistencies that exist in the magnet.
Nice video! I can't imagine cleaning the plate from the glue - my worst nightmare. After applying all this effort would you still recommend to get one of those beds or 0.08 is good enough to not bother?
I think it depends on your needs. If your bed is 0.08 and you are having no problems. No need to change. Yes, that was terrible! Thank you!
as a question could the magnetic sheets be milled/machined? I mean after installing them
Possibly. But I have never tried it. I also thought about polishing with the finest sanding paper possible on a very flat surface. But before you go too far, be sure to check your gantry 1st.
Interesting I now use borosilicate glass with a bed sticker only down side Is I of to use a spatula to remove prints, bed my bed is real flat, 0.0125 variances
What 3d printer brand is it? I've been thinking about testing that out.
I guess perfect is an enemy of good. I use (the) Ender 3 and had some issues with curvy print bed. And had to flatten it with bare hands, and later with aluminum sticky tape a metal ruler and a flashlight. I do not have probe, so my head ain't aching 'bout it. = )
I recently printed with no trouble, when I noticed, that actually the left side was lower for some reason, and the right side was quite near the nozzle. Wanted to check this after printed a couple of items and some had smaller holes than others. I saw slight imperfections on the first layer but it stuck alright, so I ignored this.
So I corrected bed knobs after I noticed bed nonalignment. So my guess if it sticks it is flat = )
Doesnt mesh bed compensation - compensate for any flatness issues? I had a glass plate that had some filament boogers underneath and came out find. even if the mesh was thrown off by 1mm in one corner.
It does compensate, but your print will still have it's shape impacted by the shape of the bed. So it's always better for the bed to be as close to perfect as possible. Bed mesh will help you have a successful print, but now your print has not technically "correct". On some high precision (as good as precision can be with heated plastic) prints, this can be a problem depending how far off the bed is as well as the bed shape.
love the videos dude! i had a MRW magbed and its a beauty! however, its really not suited for TAP in my experience. I tried to shim the magnets with tinfoil, and i have a build plate that's 0.7mm thick, but the force from TAP picks up those valleys in the mesh... which means when i try print a first layer test square, i can see the lower parts are due to the magnets ... even with the faulty regions listed in the bed mesh, the mesh looks better but still the same issues with the first layer. might have to try one of these beds instead with graviflex.
Have you setup QGL and Bed Mesh to avoid those magnetic spots? They are not flat due to the pull of the very strong magnets on the steel sheet.
I use the same 750W heat pad and my bed surface and under the bed temp is normally 10 degree more or less gap, and, even more , the bed corner temp is usually 3-4 degree less than the bed center. Can't imagine what's the temp like with my old 150W 12V heat pad.
I'm digging out and restarting an old 3d printer I stopped using once my Voron was running. It have one of those old heat pads. I'm going to have a look in the next few weeks to see how well it does. This is a good thought. Thanks for watching!
I wonder if is reliable to use the flat steel PEI without using the magnetic base. Is there anyone who has tried it?
I've seen it done. You need clips, but it certainly works.
Great details.
FYI - the test you did after replacing the magnetic sheet was made WITHOUT the PEI plate and the first one was with the PEI plate.
Great point! At some point, I want to make another video about this as some of it could be better, but I think there is more I have been learning over time. Thanks for watching.
Interesting video. Did you ever go back and back test the old plate with a new magnet cured on a glass surface? I'm sure the results would be interesting. Maybe a part 2 to the video? Great job either way!
I did not enjoy removing the bedplate :). I do intend to go back to the original, but I think I may build a second printer and use that plate. Or, get the tools to properly measure that plate for flatness and add a new magnet. I'm convinced it's also very flat, but the magnetic sheet was the problem. It's a great idea for a part two, I should have thought of that! Thank you!
I have the same problem but i didn't take the magnatic sheet off this is how i fixed it i took the aluminium bed of and lay it on a glass table with none stick paper between the magnet and the glass and i put some weight on and i heated the bed to 120c for cuple of hours and left it to cool down for 24 hours and it was perfect 👌 😊 note
Some times the problem is from the spring steel sheet not all of them r good quality
I was wondering if that could be done. But I did not consider it until after I did this. But thank you very much for verifying this works. I've noticed over time, it seems to change and this technique could get it back to where it needs to be. And I agree. I have noticed not all steel plates are of the same quality. Especially the ones with the rough pattern PEI. Thank you as I'll be using your trick every once in a while.
I'm wondering if this is why the Mandala Roseworks Mag Plate is preferred by most. Great video and makes sense, I'm building a Voron 2.4r2 soon, and was considering getting a Mandala plate to swap for the LDO kit, just don't know if it's worth the money or not. Lol
I think it is the reason. But it's not cheap....thanks for watching!
My third Voron (and first kit Voron) was a 0.1 that included an upgraded Mandala Roseworks bed with embedded magnets. Once I saw it and thought about it, I bought a new Roseworks bed for my 2.4 and I do NOT regret it. It works really well and I’m able to consistently lay down a good first layer without bed mesh. I do wish I had a thermistor on top, but I calibrate temp by pressing my DMM’s heavily-thermogreased thermocouple into the bed and correlating thermistor reading to actual bed-top temp.
while you did the measurements was the plate cold or hot ?
I ran measurements both hot and cold. I wanted to see the difference between hot and cold and how the magnet sheet impacted that flatness.
Use zippo lighter fluid (naptha) to remove the glue residue
Thats a great tip. Thanks!
I thought the whole reason for a mesh was so that it didn't matter how flat your build plate was... My variance is .5215 and I get good prints.
I would argue that a bed mesh tries to compensate for a bed that isn't flat and give you reasonable prints. It cannot make a bed or your print flat. If you print a large object, even with bed mesh, it will still have a variance of 0.5215 on the side that was on the bed. For most objects, this may not matter so you should be fine. But if you need the print to be better than that, you need a flatter bed. That said, a flatter bed plate actually didn't fix the situation. It was the application of the magnetic sheet that was the issue. Thanks for the comment!
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop ahh I see exactly. If you print a 250x250x250 cube, the bottom will be wavy, and if those cubes need to be perfectly fit together, they wouldn't. Great explanation and great video!
Exactly. One other thing, it also just bothered me that I switched plates and my results were worse. I needed to understand why. Hopefully this will help people when building their next printer. Thanks!
I managed to reuse my old heater. You get it really hot and peel the sticker off. Let the adhesive side soak in some goof off, dissolves the adhesive very well. Better than MEK
And there was enough glue left over to stick it to the new bed?
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop No, I got a new sticker off of aliexpress. same adhesive.
@@M1America Thats good to know. This may impact what I do with my old bed. Thank for these details and thank you for watching!
I have made a test to a glass It should supposedly be a flat surface and I was very disappointed, even a glass had a more pronounced curve. I think then the way for me to solve this is to adaptative mesh, I dont know how works yet, but supossely the nozzle adapt the Z move to maintain the same distance of surface, after a heightmap.
A bed mesh will certainly help. But have a look at those gantry backers. I don't use them yet, but people I know claim they help alot.
Got a request to print something big and here I am after bed mesh not really helping too much. variation for my bed is 0.16 but still getting some lines not connecting to the perimeter. I'm convinced a precise flat bed is probably the only true fix but I still want to try the single mgn12h upgrade to make sure X axis is not over constrained by the dual mgn9 rails. great video by the way and love your content.
If you are using a high quality rail such as a Hiwin, try the single MGN9 rail, take the bottom one off. Have a look at this: czcams.com/video/i8a2-Jd-dIo/video.html
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop I took it off today and low and behold bedmesh working the way its meant to be and getting a near perfect squish on the first layer across the entire bed. guess I will be ordering that mgn12 after all since my current mgn9s have play in them. variance came down to 0.112 as well.
@@lxc647 I'm glad to hear you have this working well now! In general, high quality rails are not considered important for 3d printers, but for the x-axis, I would recommend a high quality rail like the Hiwin with some preload. They can be ordered with various levels of preload which will tighten things up on that rail and eliminate any chance for play.
Goo-Gone has acetone in it which I suspect is why it came off easy.
If it does, I could not smell it. It's a bit of a mystery what's inside Goo-Gone...
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop I actually went to get acetone the other day and saw Goo-Gone. One of them definitely showed it having acetone. The other types didn't really mention it so maybe yours doesn't.
@@jackshett I could not find acetone that week. So Goo-Gone it became. Does the acetone work well? I was told online to use alcohol, and it did nothing. It might have even made the glue harder!
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop Acetone does work, but it is probably about as effective maybe slightly stronger.
@@jackshett Probably stronger. But the fumes.....
Guess I should feel blessed to have a .01 variance on my ender 3 mesh 😂
You should. Thats good!
I'm curious. With bed mesh adjusting for the small imperfections why do so highly value a bed that's .07mm rather than .16?
Really good question. The mesh doesn't fix everything and It would be nice to be able to print without a mesh. My original goal was to see if a flatter bed could provide more consistency and more importantly to see what a flatter bed would bring to the printing experience compared to many of the beds that come part of a kit. I can't answer that yet as I don't have enough time with the flatter bed. I would assume for many, 0.16mm vs 0.07mm just isn't important and I can easily understand why. I ended up publishing this video as a help for people building a new bed/printer so they can hopefully avoid the mistakes I made and have a better bed using the parts they purchased. I also hope for those that are having bed problems that mesh isn't fixing, some of these tips can be used to improve the bed existing in a cheap manner.
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop Well, its very good information and something I wouldn't have thought would impact the bed flatness. Definitely good info for people building Voron's. If I'm ever preparing a bed again ill take care to apply the magnet on as flat a surface as possible. I ask because I'm the type to also go down rabbit holes. I guess most attracted to the Voron are those who like fiddly things. But I also try not to follow my natural tendency to push fiddly types of inquiry or tweaking past the point they actually produce a net benefit. Its a hard line to recognize at times, and even harder to respect. my bed fluctuates between .12 and .25 depending on bed temp. But I find the bed mesh takes care of it well enough. I probe with one reading (dip down) as my PN-08 is surprisingly accurate and repeatable. That combined with high speed for movement leads to fast probing. Ohhh, also, you MUST setup adaptive bed probing. that is brilliant and saves time for small prints and allows you to use a higher resolution mesh. check that out for sure. Enjoyed watching you spiral ;) Thanks for the info !!! github.com/Frix-x/klipper-voron-V2/blob/main/macros/probing/bed_mesh.cfg
@@ThePhilbox Thank you. This was definitely a rabbit hole. This was supposed to be quick and easy, but when I did not get the results I was expecting, I just had to get to the bottom of it. Adaptive bed mesh looks like a fantastic idea. I considered it. But now, with this new setup, I've been printing for days and getting great prints, even the large ones over 300mm wide. All with no bed mesh. So it was a pain up front, but no more bed mesh at all! In the end I'm pleased. Thank you for watching!
My original variance with the same kit was 0.31-0.38 depending on temperature and how long it sat. Even with the mesh I had print issues and according to the Voron team going over 250mm leads to more complications printing which I believe is a result of the issues covered in this video.
I originally went to the Voron discord for help with my variance after a few prints failed to stick well. The general conclusion was the X rail was bowed due to the dual rails. I had used a 0.0001" graduated dial test indicator to ensure parallelism between them and as a result had extremely smooth movement indicating the Hiwin rails were well made so I rejected their conclusions and went with the same bed in the video. Needless to say my X rails were fine.
@@ChrisHarmon1 Fair enough....I have a magic studio plate with .15-.3 variance. Bed mesh seems to work fine for me. But have still had to chase issues like thermal drift of the probe, and thermal expansion of the frame/gantry. Once I started heating with the probe over the build plate (recent change) all my problems were pretty much solved. Now if I'm doing back to back long prints just have to remember to drop it down a tad to fight thermal expansion.
Wouldnt introducing wires to the top of your bed effect a level? Seems like that that could be a huge surface offsetter. Great video for thought!
Are you referring to the temperature sensor just under the magnet? It's a very narrow slot. Once the steel sheet is sitting on the top, I don't this it will impact anything, but it might just to that small area. But also, I just don't measure that spot. Thank you!
so what did a new magnetic sticker cost?
About $15 for 400x400
Awesome video! I'm keen to get a replacement for my Trident 350mm. Do you have referral code? Want to get you some credit
I don't have a referral code. But I highly recommend the build plate from Precision Printer Parts. The same plate works for both printers. Wait until you open the box and see the plate 1st hand.
I wonder if you heated up the bed with magnet to 120 and then plopped it on a flat surface with the weight if you could have skipped removing and reapplying. Anyways, that's what I'm going to try as a takeaway from this video as I seek a flatter bed. Thank you for putting this out there and showing the process of discovery.
In hind sight, I wish I tried that. If you do try it, please let us know what happens. I'm 60% sure it will work. One major thing to consider, will the heat cause the glass to shatter? It might make sense to take the bed out and lay it magnet side down cold and then turn on the heater. It will heat up slower and allow the glass to warm up slowly. Then figure out what weight can be put on the back of the plate that's ok with the heat. The glass table in the video is actually very expensive. If I broke it, contending with my significant other would easily have been the most difficult part of the project :)
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop I tried this, and it didn't seem to work. Next, I will try a stone rolling pin at 120.
@@tonyrouse6864 Not a bad idea. I should have given that a try. Depending how badly it is warped and the shape, you might want to try a slice of paper on top of the magnetic sheet, under the PEI to raise a low area....
I would suggest to remove the plate and sit it glue side down on a bunch of those blue shop towels saturated with goo gone. Leave it for several hours and the removal should be easier. Obviously you don't want this to get to the underside and destroy the heater adhesion.
That is a good idea. That would soften the entire surface in one go. I should have thought of that! Thank you for watching and posting!
nice mashined bed, maybe you could mention a important thing not to power it with 100% (depends on the heater power ofc).
The flatness of the mashined bed isnt that important i think after you put magnetic sheet and the print surface on it.
Got a cheap one out of a formbot kit and my Variance is 0.057 mm.
That is a good point and worth reminding people about 100% power.
I think the beds that come with most of the known kits are good beds. By using this new one, I was trying to take the aluminum bed out of the equation and limit the issue to something else and make sure people would not point to my bed provided in the kit as the source of the problem. I think the video succeeded there, but I'm second guessing how I was able to communicate that. Thank you for watching!
Based on how the adhesive responded to 120C, I wonder if you could have reformed it by heating to 120C with a flat plate (e.g. another aluminum plate) on top with some weight
That is the one thing I wish I had tried 1st. But the wiring was problematic (way too short). I still have my old bed. Someday soon, I plan on hooking it up to a power source and a micro-controller and giving it a try.
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop You can get stand-alone PID controllers (capable of switching AC power, even) for about $50 on Amazon.
@@benbencom That's good to know. I had no idea. I suppose the $50 is worth it if it works and eliminates the need to remove all that glue.
Very cool. Bed time story.
The bed levels were cold beds?
What about hot bed? Just hit 110c, heat soak 1hr and 2hr chamber 55 temp. I really like your temp graphs for all the devices n controllers.
Aparently there is alot of thermal expansion on the gantry and many people use x and Y backer rods or old mgn rails to help with heat deformations.
My bed shape changes alot. With heat. About to install old mgn rails as backers supports.
On other notes. I've had great success with the Single x Axis mgn9 . I converting it to the dual mgn9 setup and all my head wobble has been eliminated. Gained some weight but it prints perfectly.
Thankyou for great VORON content.
You bed should not be changing that much from heating if it's a good cast aluminum bed. I resorted to this after fixing other things, especially the gantry. Each fix seemed to improve the bed mesh. There really wasn't anything left to fix/adjust. So this bed when hot, differed from the cold by < 0.024 with the final magnet attached and a 1 hour heat soak. Now that still might not represent the final results because the printer's side panels were removed, so the interior of the printer was cooler than usual. I probably should post a follow up at some time, but I'm currently making some additional changes. I'm glad the single mgn9 rail worked for you as it did for me. Finally, Thank you for the great comments and watching. I really like your sense of humor!
My brain os struggling with the cardboard, flat glass table yes. Glass is generally very flat but cardboard isn't.
This causes my brain to wonder how much luck is involved in the 1st instance and how much variance there is in accuracy of one magnet to another?
I would think replacing cardboard for glass mirror tiles would be more accurate than cardboard, maybe?
But then again 70 odd microns is nothing when the bed is 58 microns to start with.
The original bed at whatever it was 130 microns isnt huge, whats that in old money .0051 of sn inch?
Still not bad in 3d printer land and well within the scope of a touch sensor which in itself has a tolerance probably wider than the machining of that lovely plate. Great video
Thanks for the comments. I'm not convinced the cardboard did much other than distributing weight evenly But, you got me thinking....
I have a high quality plate but something in my gantry messes up the z variance .. im one step before rebuilding my gantry 😅….. i mean the prints come out nice but when im looking at my mesh diagram i get angry 😂
Believe me, I know the feeling! That was the start of this video.
How many rails on the x-axis? MNG9 or MGN12 or something else altogether?
2 Rails mgn9 .. i think i build a new gantry with one mgn 9 and the stealthburner.. or i go direct to a carbon fiber x axis with mgn 9 , lgx lite and stealthburner…
@@rsmaster5637 In case you didn't see it: czcams.com/video/i8a2-Jd-dIo/video.html and the stl for single rail stealthburner: github.com/Kapman1/StealthBurner-Single-MGN9-Carriage
You can see the before and after of the single mgn9 rail and it's impact on the bed flatness (it improved). Also, if you go with a single mgn9, make sure it's a high quality rail such as Hiwin.
I've been looking at carbon fiber square tubing. I've received 3. None of them are as straight and flat as the aluminum extrusion. 2 of them were very far off. So I'm still on aluminum.
Finally, others have told me what a big difference backer plates have made to the flatness of their bed. So you might want to look into that for the x & y on your gantry..
Yes the backer plates are also in my list.. someone used old linear rails as backers on the gantry … if i go for a single mgn9 hiwin would be the only choice.. i dont understand why some of the new single rail revisions of the voron are based on an mgn12. Maybe if the gantry moves fast from the front to the back you get more wobble on the nozzle due to less stability.. if the center of gravity of the printhead is to far away from the rail then the small rail could get an issue.
@@rsmaster5637 I suppose so. But so far, I have not had any issues.
Simple acetone gets glue off bed plates and flex plates really easily.
Next time, I'll use it. At the time of the video, I could not get acetone locally, so I used Goo Gone. Thank you for the tip and thank you for watching!
i am not going to pretend it actually made any difference how you installed it or having bed flatness like that makes any difference or you actually needed it for anything its just ocd things
If you are referring to a difference in your prints, I think it depends on how much the bed is off. Especially on large pieces. But the way it was installed did make a measurable difference. There is a aspect of OCD here, but to some it matters. Thanks for the comment and watching!
Believe it or not if your printer has V wheels, if they are not absolutely perfect it will show up as a sinewave on your mesh. If you have a bed slinger a sinewave going from left to right is your X and a sinewave going front to back is your Y. If you see multiple waves its probably more than one wheel that needs to be replaced.
You can test which one by manually rotating it a bit and then making a mesh again if the pattern changes the wheel isn't good. Please use common sense though as < 0.05mm isn't really worth fixing.
I don't use v wheels on this printer, but this is a great tip. For my other printer, I will keep my eyes open for this. Thank you for the tip!
Use a high temp 2 part epoxy resin leveling liquid. You only need a tablespoon or so for the entire bed.
Have you tried this?
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop Not yet, but I'll be doing it on my son's CR-10 when I'm done modding this Ender 7. I've been trying for months to think of a reason that this might be a bad idea, and I can't. As long as the printer is on a level surface and it is applied super-thin ("squeegee" it with a razor blade), it should work. Some of those resins are good for 275-300 Celsius, so bed temps won't be an issue.
@@ApexNick I'd love to hear back about how this worked. It sounds reasonable and I can't imagine why it won't work. But the permanence is something I need to mentally get over. Thanks for watching!
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop Agreed, though I can't imagine much actual damage coming from it as either way it will be covered (spring steel, pei, glass). An idea I need to think on is some sort of strong magnets (but not strong enough to affect the electronics) glued on the underside of the platform so we can use those magnetic build sheets without the adhesive backed magnetic sheets.
@@ApexNick There are companies that sell beds with embedded magnets. I wondered why, but in hindsight, they seem like a great idea.
Now I am printing with the bed at 130 degres celsius at start and 120 after first layer. I think the glue gives off a lot of smell to that temperature. This smell It's annoying, I don't know how much toxic will be.
I am thinking of removing the glue that and using the bed without magentism.
The smell should go away in a month or so of use. But in my case it was very strong. And then the odor disappeared. I ended up building nevermore and it seemed to help during that period.
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop , Thank you very much for the answer, I am thinking of removing the magentism for that reason and for not being as flat as aluminum alone. But in addition another reason is that I have found the Garolite (FR-4) plaque much better than the PEI, in addition the steel plate can also be used without magnetism, that is to say, hold it with tweezers.
@@valdolandar534 My next bed probably will not have a magnetic sheet any more. I've been planning to try out Garolite for some time now. Does it withstand the heat for ABS printing?
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop, The Garolite that I use comes from Ali-Expres, Named as FR4, and works perfectly, the maximum temperature I have tried is 130 degrees Celsius at first Layer. The adhesion between the Garolite and the ABS is much more than with the PEI. If in the end one does not want to fold the garolite or force to take off it is necessary to wait until lower than 50 degrees Celsius.
Another advantage of the Garolite is that it can be sanded with fine grain sandpaper and thus restores possible scratches. The sanding fine grain adds power of adhesion too.
Mineral spirits works better than goo gone and much cheaper!
Thank you for the tip!
Yeah, but you've got corrogated cardboard under it on top of the glass. Which defeats ANY advantage of the glass when you applied it.
The magnetic sheet and the aluminum bed are placed directly on the thick glass surface. I placed the cardboard on the backside to deal with the heater bump where the heater cables come in. That is why it came out so flat afterwards. The cardboard had nothing to do with it. The Glass surface provided a much better surface than the previous wooden bench. The result here is that you need to use the flattest surface possible when installing the magnetic sheet and letting it cure. Your wooden work bench is not good enough for this task, not is simply placing the magnetic sheet on top and letting dry on it's own.
My printer bed is far far to be flat, 2.09mm ;)
That's a big variance. I would check the gantry and the bed mount and the associated screws. What printer is it?
my variance is at 1.5mm. I don't unterstand this, larger prints print like shit and it's on glas.
I would check your gantry. Is it perfectly parallel to the bed? It may not be.
Hey @@KapmansBasementWorkshop ,
I fixed it, the bed now has a delta of 0.35. The Bed was ok, but my printhead was lose, it was so soft attachted that you can wiggle it. It's not so flat as your printbed, but it's ok. What's the point in getting flatter now? I mean the printer will compensate for the error and now my error is homogeneous spaced. So no more valleys and mountains.
As long as it's printing well, that all that matters. I'm glad you got to the bottom of this.
Very nice video, but it doest mater if it is 0,05 or 0,4 mesh leveling fix it and nobody notice it on prints. I also like perfection but this is just waste of money, you should buy titanium backers because when you heat up printer and gantry bent more :) And your bed perfection is lost. It is just 3d printer not telescope in space.
There is certainly truth in this. That said, moving to a single rail made a big difference without adding any weight and this new plate with a careful application of the magnetic sheet yet another. My goal was to not use a bed mesh and have parts 300 mm and larger be as flat as possible. Hopefully others will gain something from my mistakes. Thank you!
@@KapmansBasementWorkshop Now i checked my bed variance before print and it is very nice 0.039 mm, after heating it is something like 0,1+ something ... but titan backer are ready to install! :) Looking forward to new videos, I really like how you explain everything.
@@davidbucek My previous bed was not as good a yours. I'm sure the titanium backers will provide a big improvement. Taking off one of the mgn9 rails provided a substantial improvement for me in probed flatness, especially when hot. Let us know what difference you see with the backers on. Thank you for the kind words and thanks for watching!
so i dont get it. you didnt show us how you put on the magnet the first time, so we wouldnt do your mistake, but instead you show us how you remover the adhesive.
I initially installed it on my wooden work bench which wasn't as flat as I had hoped. That is the method most videos show when attaching the magnet. The second time, The glass table provided a flat enough surface to create a significant improvement. The key takeaway, your bed will only be as flat as the surface used to allow the glue to dry.
No secrets here, actually, mainly just how to screw up. A more methodic procedure would've helped you. You should change the title to: "How to install assemble a heated bed, and problems that may arise".
Helpful video nonetheless, just don't clickbait people.
Exactly. I screwed up. Hopefully others will learn from my mistakes. And if they have made the mistake previously, here is a path to fixing it without purchasing a new build plate. I might have gotten carried away when creating the video thumbnail...Thank you for watching!