A proof that e is irrational - Numberphile

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  • čas přidán 23. 01. 2021
  • Professor Ed Copeland shows a proof by Joseph "Voldemort" Fourier that e is irrational.
    Check out episode sponsor KiwiCo.com/Numberphile for 50% off your first month of any subscription. The crates are great!
    More links & stuff in full description below ↓↓↓
    Ed Copeland is a physics professor at the University of Nottingham.
    Check out more videos with him here: bit.ly/EdCopeland
    And here for some meatier chats: bit.ly/CopelandGoesLong
    And here's a previous video about e with James Grime: • e (Euler's Number) - N...
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Komentáře • 1,4K

  • @OldQueer
    @OldQueer Před 3 lety +3302

    Proof by contradiction always feels like ending a story with "and then they woke up and it was all a dream"

  • @duff003
    @duff003 Před 3 lety +2956

    "R has to be positive because it's just a sum of positive terms."
    Now that's rich coming from you lol

    • @Ben-kh2rh
      @Ben-kh2rh Před 3 lety +154

      And comes the Riemann zeta function of z(-1)

    • @TVIDS123
      @TVIDS123 Před 3 lety +13

      Hahahaha

    • @Happy_Abe
      @Happy_Abe Před 3 lety +68

      This made me laugh😂
      Takes me back

    • @AlexM-xj7qd
      @AlexM-xj7qd Před 3 lety +7

      Haaaaa

    • @shirou9790
      @shirou9790 Před 3 lety +119

      well but the series converges, which cannot be said about the other example y'all are thinking about

  • @paaaaaaaaq
    @paaaaaaaaq Před 3 lety +1021

    More professors and teachers should be like Ed. When you don't really know something at the moment just say "I don't really know".

    • @NardKoning
      @NardKoning Před 3 lety +79

      Luckily at uni I have usually found that they are like that. If you are comfortable with your knowledge, you probably are okay with it

    • @Headhunter_212
      @Headhunter_212 Před 3 lety +47

      He really was stumped on the utility of e, as if he had never looked at it in that way. He had the humility to say “I don’t know”.

    • @stephenbeck7222
      @stephenbeck7222 Před 3 lety +19

      Daniel Sullivan e itself has tons of utility but e^x being its own derivative...well I mean there are some practical uses for it but the man was all prepared for his great presentation on irrationality, not to show some odd physics and what not.

    • @micha6589
      @micha6589 Před 3 lety +3

      @@stephenbeck7222 great preparation, when you are defining e as a number which does not change after diferentating xD but that number should be 0 xD

    • @jareknowak8712
      @jareknowak8712 Před 3 lety +2

      ...people, not teachers only.

  • @omgitsliamg5334
    @omgitsliamg5334 Před 3 lety +2238

    "e is approximately 3"
    Smells like ENGINEER in here

    • @Varksterable
      @Varksterable Před 3 lety +235

      I still prefer the classic "Pi = 3, for small values of Pi, and/or large values of 3."

    • @randomblueguy
      @randomblueguy Před 3 lety +32

      @@Varksterable the limit as x approaches π from the left is 3.

    • @Das_Unterstrich
      @Das_Unterstrich Před 3 lety +202

      Pi = 3, and 3 is close to 5, so we can round up to 10

    • @N.I.R.A.T.I.A.S.
      @N.I.R.A.T.I.A.S. Před 3 lety +33

      You seen that older Numberphile video with Dr. Padilla where Don Page wrote a paper like "yeah, e is approximately equal to 10"?

    • @johnkeefer8760
      @johnkeefer8760 Před 3 lety +75

      Engineer: π = e

  • @pleaseenteraname4824
    @pleaseenteraname4824 Před 3 lety +796

    "e^x is the only function that differentiated it gets back to itself"
    Zero function: _angry analytical noises_

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 3 lety +195

      OK, OK, the only non-trivial function.
      ke^x: _angry analytical noises_

    • @godfreypigott
      @godfreypigott Před 3 lety +94

      ​@@beeble2003 Still not general enough: y=k.e^(x+c)

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 3 lety +72

      @@godfreypigott OK, OK, I'll come in again. Nooooobody expects the self-derivative! Our chief weapons are the trivial function, e^x, ke^x and ke^{x+c}.

    • @manuc.260
      @manuc.260 Před 3 lety +39

      This is why the condition e^0 = 1 is important

    • @pleaseenteraname4824
      @pleaseenteraname4824 Před 3 lety +8

      @@beeble2003 Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well

  • @arasmith9076
    @arasmith9076 Před 3 lety +791

    "e" who shall not be named...

  • @ruchirkadam8510
    @ruchirkadam8510 Před 3 lety +1278

    This feels like an oldschool numberphile video :0

    • @NoriMori1992
      @NoriMori1992 Před 3 lety +72

      Okay, so it's not just me. It's so old-school that I was thinking to myself, "Have I seen this before? Did they reupload a really old video?" 😂

    • @ruchirkadam8510
      @ruchirkadam8510 Před 3 lety +35

      @@NoriMori1992 yeah, the thumbnail is the only thing that lets you know it isn’t one of the ancients, and even the ‘e’ in the thumbnail looks oldschool

    • @omri9325
      @omri9325 Před 3 lety +16

      Because the guest used to be a lot in the early videos

    • @francismoore3352
      @francismoore3352 Před 3 lety +28

      I reckon it is a bit old! We haven’t seen any videos with Ed recently which makes me think it been sitting unedited for a while. Also Brady’s camerawork is SO pre-pandemic.

    • @VinayKumar-vu3en
      @VinayKumar-vu3en Před 3 lety

      was looking for this comment.

  • @jasonpatterson9821
    @jasonpatterson9821 Před 3 lety +268

    Why e is useful: When you are solving differential equations (which wind up describing an awful lot of things when you look carefully) you get lots of situations where a rate of change is related to the value of a thing. (ex: The rate of bunny births/deaths is related to how many bunnies there are.) When you find a solution, or even an approximation, for these sorts of things, e pops up all over the place. Compound interest, radioactive decay, population modeling, temperature change over time - all involve e.

    • @InexorableVideos
      @InexorableVideos Před 3 lety +5

      Fellow Eddie Woo enjoyer?

    • @tinyanisu1927
      @tinyanisu1927 Před 3 lety +6

      Kind of a naturally occurring number.

    • @luigivercotti6410
      @luigivercotti6410 Před 3 lety +11

      Basically, the e^x is the eigenfunction of the derivative operator, so it's bound to crop up in equations involving derivatives.

    • @Manish_Kumar_Singh
      @Manish_Kumar_Singh Před 2 lety

      that's just curve fitting, donsent mean it's usefull.
      i say the same thing for fibonachi series, gloden number

    • @luigivercotti6410
      @luigivercotti6410 Před 2 lety +8

      @@Manish_Kumar_Singh Not so. Curve fitting is the fashioning of a "curve", or in other words a formula, to match a finite dataset. It is also known as interpolating, and, while generally looked down upon as an "inelegant" method, it has many a time provided essential insight in physical and mathematical matters. However, the fact that e pops up in most our differential equations is solely a consequence of the exponential function being the eigenfunction of the differential. In other words, e appears naturally around the differential simply because of what we have defined the differential to mean. If we were to look at equations based on other operators, other eigenfunctions (and, as a consequence, constants) would emerge.

  • @cariboubearmalachy1174
    @cariboubearmalachy1174 Před 3 lety +209

    All mathematicians shoukd write "ta-dah!" At the end of their proofs instead of QED.

    • @JMUDoc
      @JMUDoc Před 3 lety +33

      Tom Korner used to write "I WIN!".

    • @the_sophile
      @the_sophile Před 3 lety +1

      I agree

    • @hamudidoodi
      @hamudidoodi Před 3 lety +10

      I thought mathematicians draw a middle finger and address it to physicists

    • @coleabrahams9331
      @coleabrahams9331 Před 3 lety

      @@JMUDoc really?

    • @JMUDoc
      @JMUDoc Před 3 lety +7

      @@coleabrahams9331 Sorry - it was Tom Korner, not Feynman.
      (And I was lectured by Korner at Cambridge, so I don't know why I confused the two!)

  • @zacharydenboer5450
    @zacharydenboer5450 Před 3 lety +475

    Love that it was pretty close to completely rigorous and had minimal hand waving

    • @forthrightgambitia1032
      @forthrightgambitia1032 Před 3 lety +32

      Including the proof of the sum!

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 3 lety +9

      @@forthrightgambitia1032 Well, that actually was the biggest handwave.

    • @stephenbeck7222
      @stephenbeck7222 Před 3 lety +12

      beeble2003 pretty much how it’s taught in high school maths already. You need some calculus to do a real proof but the concepts are all there.

    • @EebstertheGreat
      @EebstertheGreat Před 3 lety +26

      @@beeble2003 The proof for the finite case was essentially rigorous. In the infinite case, he asserts that if | _x_ | < 1, _xⁿ_ → 0 as _n_ → ∞, which technically requires a definition of a limit to prove, but which is certainly true. If you are at the point where you know enough math to even define _e_ , you probably have no trouble understanding or proving that fact. The biggest handwave might have been factoring 1/(q+1) out of the series, but that is also perfectly valid and something you would presumably know by the time you know the McLaurin series for _e_ .

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 3 lety +2

      @@EebstertheGreat Yes, I'm not claiming anything was wrong, just that some details were handwaved away.

  • @lambdaprog
    @lambdaprog Před 3 lety +917

    The smiliest astrophysicist in the planet is back!

    • @coolerdaniel9899
      @coolerdaniel9899 Před 3 lety +11

      Well get him out of there already, he's got maths to do!

    • @felixmerz6229
      @felixmerz6229 Před 3 lety +4

      Hollow Earthers unite!

    • @BeKindToBirds
      @BeKindToBirds Před 3 lety +4

      I love him

    • @dommyajd9033
      @dommyajd9033 Před 3 lety +2

      I went to a talk given by him a year ago safe to say it was super wholesome

    • @unclvinny
      @unclvinny Před 3 lety +2

      Ed’s the Mister Rogers of Numberphile, for sure. I’m always happy to see him!

  • @Vodboi
    @Vodboi Před 3 lety +262

    14:28 "We know that R has to be positive, because its a sum of positive terms". The irony of this being said by the same guy who did the "1+2+3+4+... = -1/12" video.

    • @xxdirtytrashxx
      @xxdirtytrashxx Před 3 lety +6

      Haha, thought the same, can't take him serious anymore

    • @txe9113
      @txe9113 Před 3 lety +1

      lol yeah

    • @santhosh_se5476
      @santhosh_se5476 Před 3 lety +40

      haha but this series converges unlike that one ....😛

    • @Ray25689
      @Ray25689 Před 3 lety +16

      @@santhosh_se5476 still, saying that if you are adding positive numbers inifinite times leads to a negative number, without clarifying that you mean a different version of addition, is pretty sloppy

    • @hybmnzz2658
      @hybmnzz2658 Před 3 lety +5

      @@Ray25689 bruh the standard meaning of an infinite sum doesn't need clarification

  • @Philoreason
    @Philoreason Před 3 lety +373

    Camera man: Why is it important?
    Mathematician: Wrong question!

    • @mathanalogies9765
      @mathanalogies9765 Před 3 lety +9

      Ha! Yes! At the very least, e is theoretically important because it is "natural," in the sense that it answers that fundamental question of f'(x)=f(x). (In particular, of the general answers for this question, e^x is the one with multiplicative and additive identities as "choices" in the appropriate places.)

    • @tinyanisu1927
      @tinyanisu1927 Před 3 lety +8

      @@mathanalogies9765 also important to study growth/decay of things that are proportional to their instantaneous value.

    • @mathanalogies9765
      @mathanalogies9765 Před 3 lety

      @@tinyanisu1927 Yes! Used to study an object for which its instantaneous rate of growth/decay is proportional to its value, so to speak. The "natural" proportion being 1. This is why
      f(x)=e^x with f'(x)=1*e^x=1*f(x)
      is more "natural" than
      g(x)=e^(2x) with g'(x)=2*e^(2x)=2*g(x).
      And considering all
      h(x)=a*e^(bx+c) with h'(x)=a*b*e^(bx+c),
      it is most "natural" to use
      a=b=1 (mult. id.) and c=0 (add. id.).
      [I'm only adding all of the math here, now, to clarify what I meant in my first comment.]
      If you'd like to see a funny video about e, and why taking
      a=b=c=0
      is actually the most "natural" choice, check out my
      Calc 2 (Integration Techniques and Applications)
      playlist on my channel - the video is called
      Exponential Function - How to Differentiate, How to Integrate // FUNNY/HUMOR

    • @Arduu123
      @Arduu123 Před 3 lety +4

      There is really nothing else special about e than the fact that e^x = D(e^x). All exponential functions (including all laws of nature etc) could be written with any other number as the base, differentiating those equations is just easier when using e, thats why the convention to use e exists.

    • @mathanalogies9765
      @mathanalogies9765 Před 3 lety +2

      @@Arduu123 Yes, I agree (although the first sentence is a touch subjective). What you're highlighting is why the adjective "natural" is appended to the particular exponential function f(x)=e^x.

  • @forthrightgambitia1032
    @forthrightgambitia1032 Před 3 lety +103

    3:26 I am surprised he didn't say the obvious reason: that property lets us solve a whole bunch of differential equations that model physical and non-physical dynamics.

    • @SlightlyAsync
      @SlightlyAsync Před 3 lety +1

      But how did e get into those models?

    • @forthrightgambitia1032
      @forthrightgambitia1032 Před 3 lety +13

      @@SlightlyAsync Any simple separable differential equation where there is a relationship between a function and itself will end up needing e as it represents a base case of, say, dx/dt = x which depending on the problem can then be scaled, transformed etc.
      This then is useful in things like radioactive decay, SIR epidemiological models, pharmacokinetics, ecological models etc etc.
      In fact ALL exponentials have the property that their derivative is n^xln(n) - so in fact by a scale quantity related to e (the natural log) all exponentials have this behaviour and e is in some sense the 'base case' for exponential growth that is then scaled/manipulated according to the needs. Exponential growth or decay are everywhere in nature due to the fact that many phenomena are multiplicative, more of one thing causes more of something else.
      And that is why e appears everywhere. Why is it that number is as fruitless a question as asking why the radius and circumference are 3.14, or why the ratios of right angle triangles follow the trigonometric functions, or the a/b = a + b/a is the Golden ratio. Nature is just that way.

    • @MushookieMan
      @MushookieMan Před 3 lety +25

      He was blind-sided by the question. "What's the use of a newborn baby?"

    • @mauriciovinco6143
      @mauriciovinco6143 Před 3 lety +3

      @@SlightlyAsyncit is simplification, but the sequence is roughly like this: 1. we seek the number n which satisfies this property of function f(x) = n^x such that df(x) / dx = f(x) (fixed point of differentiation ). From this we see that relative growth in function df(x)/f(x) with x is equal to increase in x, which is characteristic of exponential n^x, now n happens to be 2.71828..., we name it e because it is important, 2. we typically substitute a function which contains e^x with some additives into equations of models (they contain derivatives or integrals) and dividing by it, we get algebraic equations (i.e. in numbers, not functions) which are easier to solve. That's why e is so important

    • @nburakovsky
      @nburakovsky Před 3 lety +4

      The number e has applications in finance, economics, growth rates, statistics, and tons of other stuff. Surprised he didn't know any applications outside of pure math

  • @ygalel
    @ygalel Před 3 lety +29

    4:53 The moment you understand the choice of thumbnail

  • @enderwiggins8248
    @enderwiggins8248 Před 3 lety +19

    Btw if anyone’s curious about how he got that series expansion e^x = 1 + x + 1/2x^2 + 1/3! x^3 ... , a really easy way to verify that this makes sense is to use the property that e^x = d/dx e^x. If you take a derivative of each of the terms in the infinite series, they all kind of “shuffle” down. 1 -> 0 so it disappears, x -> 1, 1/2x^2 -> x, etc!
    (One of the reasons I think this expansion is so neat is it’s another visual way to see why e^(i pi) + 1 = 0

  • @Orthosonic
    @Orthosonic Před 3 lety +125

    The talk about the derivatives was a bit of a tangent...

  • @aSpyIntheHaus
    @aSpyIntheHaus Před 2 lety +19

    Prof Ed's voice is just so calming. I'm pretty sure I transcended into some dimension of e just listening to this video.

  • @jellymop
    @jellymop Před 3 lety +145

    Man I love Ed. It’s a pleasant surprise every time he shows up

  • @tetsi0815
    @tetsi0815 Před 3 lety +23

    3:14 Brady is a brilliant interviewer. I love how he's able to ask "normal human" questions and how those are the ones that experts trip over and make them think. I bet Brady could have asked all kinds of very in depth detail questions about some obscure technicality and Prof Copeland would have had a quick answer but a simple "Why is that useful?" is not a thing that he has thought about :-D

  • @lotoa3383
    @lotoa3383 Před 3 lety +39

    "Why is that useful?"
    To me it is very useful when solving differential equations, a lot of the methods for solving them involve e in some way. Since differential equations describe a lot things in nature, e becomes a really important function.

    • @llll-lk2mm
      @llll-lk2mm Před 2 lety

      plus logarithmic differentiation makes it so easy to deal a^x functions

  • @Dalenthas
    @Dalenthas Před 3 lety +19

    That proof felt like setting up a lot of dominoes and then watching them all fall really quickly.

    • @tobiaswilhelmi4819
      @tobiaswilhelmi4819 Před 3 lety +5

      This would be a nice visualisation of a proof by contradiction.

  • @MrFireBath
    @MrFireBath Před 3 lety +63

    The "tada" got me in stitches. Bravo on the presentation.

    • @codycast
      @codycast Před 3 lety +1

      It did? Really? Hm

    • @EebstertheGreat
      @EebstertheGreat Před 3 lety +2

      "Tada" must be the official pronunciation of ∎.

  • @andrewlittle9063
    @andrewlittle9063 Před 3 lety +63

    The level of knowledge being laid out so deep the camera is having trouble focusing

  • @vgstep
    @vgstep Před 3 lety +52

    My love for Ed has exponentially grown!

    • @dilemmacubing
      @dilemmacubing Před 3 lety +4

      yaaaaaaay another cuber that watches numberphile

    • @vgstep
      @vgstep Před 3 lety

      @@dilemmacubing hey, sup?

    • @TrondReitan7000
      @TrondReitan7000 Před 3 lety +2

      After being primed by the 15 minutes of the proof, I read this comment as "My love for Ed has exponentially grown-factorial". :D

    • @vgstep
      @vgstep Před 3 lety

      @@TrondReitan7000 haha nice

    • @AnnaDamm
      @AnnaDamm Před 3 lety

      Yeah but what Was the accelleration of the growth?

  • @bernardberari4250
    @bernardberari4250 Před 3 lety +101

    His handwriting is so neat!

    • @Einyen
      @Einyen Před 3 lety

      Yes, but why would you learn to write "x" as 2 curves? Is it due to some "don't cross the lines" philosophy?

    • @bernardberari4250
      @bernardberari4250 Před 3 lety

      @@Einyen i think it comes from the way cursive was taught

    • @abdullahenaya
      @abdullahenaya Před 3 lety +12

      @@Einyen idk the exact reason but it helps with not confusing "x" the variable with the multipication symbol

    • @puremath3491
      @puremath3491 Před 3 lety +3

      @@abdullahenaya that's why no one uses an x for multiplication anymore after they learn basic algebra

  • @Elfcheg
    @Elfcheg Před 3 lety +13

    Prof Copeland's voice is ASMR in the world of math and physics. Could listen to him for hours.

  • @CompanionCube
    @CompanionCube Před 3 lety +54

    0:39 what is e? „o“

  • @ZachGatesHere
    @ZachGatesHere Před 3 lety +54

    "Why is that useful?" "...I'm not sure."
    I feel like a lot of mathematics is this. And it's part of why it's so much fun.

    • @WritingGeekNL
      @WritingGeekNL Před 3 lety +1

      The number e is actually the most useful number in Applied Mathematics, so I'm not sure why he said that.

    • @marcellopz50
      @marcellopz50 Před 3 lety +7

      @@WritingGeekNL it's a hard question to answer on the spot like that

    • @hamudidoodi
      @hamudidoodi Před 3 lety

      You and the physicist community think that. Mathematics is mental master...

    • @Danonymous5000
      @Danonymous5000 Před 3 lety +2

      @@WritingGeekNL he got caught up a bit, instead of defining e, he described an interesting property of e. Explaining why that property is important is a little harder than describing why e is important.

    • @ZachGatesHere
      @ZachGatesHere Před 2 lety +1

      @@WritingGeekNL the question wasn't why e is useful, it was why that specific property is.

  • @kadefringe
    @kadefringe Před 3 lety +7

    That moment you have to explain the function that's so important and used in basically everywhere, that you have no idea where to start with, then you simply say, "I don't really know."

    • @Ender240sxS13
      @Ender240sxS13 Před 3 lety +3

      I think it was more of a why is that function literally everywhere, why do physical processes behave in ways where this one number pops up everywhere. And that's what he doesn't know.

  • @laurihei
    @laurihei Před 3 lety +43

    Well then, I was wondering what on Earth does Voldemort have to do with e's irrationality. Now I know :D

    • @mysticalpie4695
      @mysticalpie4695 Před 3 lety +5

      He is irrationally made as the antagonist in Harry potter I assume

    • @WindsorMason
      @WindsorMason Před 2 lety

      @@mysticalpie4695 and covers the tale of his transcendence of the mortal coil.

  • @numberphile
    @numberphile  Před 3 lety +16

    Check out episode sponsor KiwiCo.com/Numberphile for 50% off your first month of any subscription. The crates are great!
    Catch more videos with Ed Copeland at: bit.ly/EdCopeland

  • @HasekuraIsuna
    @HasekuraIsuna Před 3 lety +70

    _"Gauss apparently did this when he was three."_
    Hahaha, misspoke! You mean third grade... right? Right?!

    • @HasekuraIsuna
      @HasekuraIsuna Před 3 lety +8

      @@sachinnandakumar1008 I can only handle so much Gauss-genius in one day.

    • @chihabmajdolin504
      @chihabmajdolin504 Před 3 lety +9

      He did this when he was 3, nothing's impossible with Gauss

    • @oskarjung6738
      @oskarjung6738 Před 3 lety +24

      @@chihabmajdolin504 not 3 its "e".

    • @StarGarnet03
      @StarGarnet03 Před 3 lety +2

      @@oskarjung6738 Not funny. Get out.

    • @hexa3389
      @hexa3389 Před 3 lety +13

      I wouldn't be surprised if Gauss learned calculus when he was still a fetus at this point.

  • @proxidize5738
    @proxidize5738 Před 3 lety +27

    Ed has such a welcoming and warm smile

  • @dle511
    @dle511 Před 3 lety +6

    3:13 "why is that useful?" because it makes learning calculus just a tad easier Brady

  • @TheDJSyaheer
    @TheDJSyaheer Před 3 lety +9

    This definitely brings back the old-school Numberphile vibe.

  • @hanswurst1130
    @hanswurst1130 Před 3 lety +64

    Why do I feel like the mathematics nerds are all just so humble people? I love it! Great to see not all of humanity is bad :)

    • @CodyEthanJordan
      @CodyEthanJordan Před 3 lety +12

      Feel free to see Stephen Wolfram for a counterexample lol

    • @vladimirjosh6575
      @vladimirjosh6575 Před 3 lety +6

      @@CodyEthanJordan don't tell me he's the guy who made wolfram alpha

    • @KebabTM
      @KebabTM Před 3 lety +5

      @@vladimirjosh6575 Yea he's the founder of Wolfram

    • @jamieg2427
      @jamieg2427 Před 3 lety +5

      Physics people too tend to be pretty humble. This guy is a physicist, though of course he's also a math nerd 😊

    • @spinecho609
      @spinecho609 Před 3 lety +5

      You dont get to see the bickering and backstabbing

  • @s8w5
    @s8w5 Před 3 lety +52

    15:05 "tah-dah!"
    Actually, mathematicians call that "qed".

    • @YaamFel
      @YaamFel Před 3 lety +13

      Mathematicians don't say "I love you", they say "$\blacksquare$", and I think that's beautiful

    • @cobracrystal_
      @cobracrystal_ Před 3 lety

      @@YaamFel $\hfill \square$ please

    • @Lefkada78
      @Lefkada78 Před 3 lety

      @@cobracrystal_ did you work for E-systems?

    • @puppypi9668
      @puppypi9668 Před 2 lety

      Q.E.D. is pronounced "tah-dah"

  • @ibrahimbinkasim7419
    @ibrahimbinkasim7419 Před 3 lety +52

    - "ive been to his grave.."
    - "have you?"
    You two are real friends arent you?

    • @puppypi9668
      @puppypi9668 Před 2 lety

      as opposed to imaginary friends :')

    • @puppypi9668
      @puppypi9668 Před 2 lety

      (hey wait this gives me an idea :3 )
      a fangirl fantasizes about someone and then meets them and they become friends irl
      > so your friendship started out imaginary but now it's also real!
      >> yeah, you might say our relationship is.._complex_
      >> 8^)

  • @GoatzAreEpic
    @GoatzAreEpic Před 3 lety +12

    When he said: this is going to be just like proving sqrt(2) is irrational, i was like ok nice this will be easy.
    It wasn't...

  • @rewrose2838
    @rewrose2838 Před 3 lety +11

    e π and phi are always lurking around the corner

  • @adityak1231
    @adityak1231 Před 3 lety +81

    14:29
    -1/12 enters the chat

  • @number-kv8px
    @number-kv8px Před 3 lety +8

    I like how they discuss the problem the whole video instead of just solve it

  • @waqqiali2960
    @waqqiali2960 Před 3 lety +33

    11:25 Gauss apparently did it when he was about, 3 Alright so...

    • @Duel53
      @Duel53 Před 3 lety +19

      I think he’s joking. The only thing I remember Gauss doing when he was 3 was checking his father’s books to make sure everything added up correctly.

    • @lagomoof
      @lagomoof Před 3 lety +13

      I think the "about three" from e itself may have had something to do with it as well.

    • @LandoCalrissiano
      @LandoCalrissiano Před 3 lety +11

      He did it when he was approximately e years old.

    • @RodelIturalde
      @RodelIturalde Před 3 lety +2

      The myth about Gauss have to be developed and thought to the younger generations.
      That it isn't precisely true is not that important. How do you think myths about other historical figures came to be?

  • @EMAngel2718
    @EMAngel2718 Před 3 lety +64

    I wish more people wrote the initial 1 as 1/(0!)

  • @solidazoriginal
    @solidazoriginal Před 3 lety +18

    Super appreciate the detail of Professor Copeland and also the graphics!!! Thank you very much

  • @Jinjukei
    @Jinjukei Před 3 lety +1

    Brilliant! Cheers! I like the calm, elegant and friendly way you are talking and being so keen on what your are doing.

  • @MaximeJean94
    @MaximeJean94 Před 3 lety +2

    For the use in physics : the fact that the d/dx (e^x) = e^x can rbing us easy solutions for differentials equations (equations with functions and their diffenretials). It's important because differenciate a fonction tells us about how this functions evolve in time, and if you have a relation between the state of the system you study and the way it will evolve, you have a differential equation, and we can solve some of these with the exponential fonction.

  • @sumantchopde9039
    @sumantchopde9039 Před 3 lety +8

    It's the first time I'm this early to a numberphile video. Also, we came across this problem in our real analysis course a few days back. What a coincidence!

  • @otakuribo
    @otakuribo Před 3 lety +20

    James Grime: we're gonna talk about e!!
    Ed Copeland: we're gonna *prove it*

  • @IDK_OR_DO_I
    @IDK_OR_DO_I Před 3 lety +1

    3:18 I like that humble answer!

  • @EnigmaticLucas
    @EnigmaticLucas Před 3 lety +29

    i: Be rational
    e: Get real

    • @mysticalpie4695
      @mysticalpie4695 Před 3 lety +1

      "e" pi
      Ill explain if you didn't didn't get it, basically saying ew to pi 😁

  • @IllidanS4
    @IllidanS4 Před 3 lety +3

    One definition of e that I like is that it is the only base for exponentiation where the slope around 0 is one. This follows the derivative definition ((e^x)'(0) = e^0 = 1), but has a nice consequence - e^x around 0 behaves like x + 1 which is useful for establishing logarithmic units: using e as the base means that multiplying by something close to 1 (imagine adding or subtracting small percentages) can be seen through the logarithm as adding that multiplier minus 1.
    x + y % = x × (1 + y / 100) ≈ x × e ^ (y / 100)
    The logarithmic unit that is based on e is called the neper (Np). Units of percentages are analogous to centinepers (cNp) but behave in a more consistent fashion.

  • @Euquila
    @Euquila Před 3 lety +7

    It's such a simple proof but I would never in a million years figure it out

  • @cameront4729
    @cameront4729 Před 3 lety +1

    I remember doing this STEP question and it was one of the most beautiful yet surprisingly simple proofs I have come across!

  • @BrunsterCoelho
    @BrunsterCoelho Před 3 lety

    This was wonderful as always Brady, thank you!

  • @dkranda
    @dkranda Před 3 lety +6

    Love this video - just straight into some nice proofs!

  • @TheLunarNights123
    @TheLunarNights123 Před 3 lety +91

    Me: Sees Voldemort on thumbnail
    *So after the deathly hallows he retired and became a mathematician*

    • @imveryangryitsnotbutter
      @imveryangryitsnotbutter Před 3 lety +3

      Friendly reminder that the author who created Voldemort is transphobic.

    • @superoriginalhandle
      @superoriginalhandle Před 3 lety +3

      @@imveryangryitsnotbutter Passive aggressiveness I see. I still like Rowling, I just ignore their twitter and the transphobic stuff

    • @52flyingbicycles
      @52flyingbicycles Před 3 lety +2

      Voldemort is not the first villain I associate with E

    • @PriyankitaPant
      @PriyankitaPant Před 3 lety +1

      @@imveryangryitsnotbutter 👏

    • @PerMortensen
      @PerMortensen Před 3 lety +2

      Mathemagician.

  • @benoitb.3679
    @benoitb.3679 Před 3 lety +2

    I saw Ed's face in the first frame and shouted YES! So happy to see a new video with Ed!

  • @rebase
    @rebase Před 3 lety +1

    3:19 “why is that useful?”
    Because this way e^(cx) is an eigenfunction of the differential operator, which makes solving (certain) differential equations easy. For example, a linear dynamical system’s response to a (complex) exponential is always another (complex) exponential with a (complex) scale factor. This is one of the reasons why Fourier analysis is so useful for analysing linear dynamical systems.

  • @MissHoyden
    @MissHoyden Před 3 lety +10

    This was fun. Thanks.

  • @EleanorDrapeaux
    @EleanorDrapeaux Před 3 lety +14

    "Why is that useful?"
    ".
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I don't know?"

    • @MatthewOBrien314
      @MatthewOBrien314 Před 3 lety +1

      it's useful because it is a solution to the differential equation
      d/dx f(x) = f(x)
      i.e
      y' = y
      solution f(x) = e^x
      this differential equation shows up all the time in physics

    • @zakpodo
      @zakpodo Před 3 lety

      @@MatthewOBrien314 yes, thats the definition but why is it useful and ubiquitous. What i love about mathematics is that theres always another level, the more you know the more you can appreciate what a small amount what you know really is.

  • @colonelburak2906
    @colonelburak2906 Před 3 lety +1

    Great to see a proof once in a while! Especially with professor Copeland.
    Although there is a typo in the graphics at 11:09. In the top equation, the second term in the bracket says 1/(q+1) but it should read 1/(q+2), and similarly the third term should read 1/((q+2)(q+3)).
    Thanks for great content!

  • @skopernik
    @skopernik Před rokem

    Such a pleasant voice and the manner of speech! It is a pure joy to listen.

  • @nexxai
    @nexxai Před 3 lety +5

    I love the math in this one - it's so elegant, but man, the autofocus continually hunting was killing my eyes.

  • @Tehom1
    @Tehom1 Před 3 lety +72

    Ed: It's the only number where if I differentiate it [meaning e^x] I get back the same number.
    Zero: Am I a joke to you?

    • @EvidLekan
      @EvidLekan Před 3 lety +21

      Ce^x : I know, right?

    • @ShlokParab
      @ShlokParab Před 3 lety +2

      Yes he forgot about zero

    • @jagatiello6900
      @jagatiello6900 Před 3 lety +5

      Yeah, but the joke about integration doesn't work with zero, whereas e^x is bidirectional...

    • @benwincelberg9684
      @benwincelberg9684 Před 3 lety +3

      Zero: am I nothing to you?

    • @jagatiello6900
      @jagatiello6900 Před 3 lety +9

      Pi talking to i on March 15...
      Pi: Why was e^x so lonely at my birthday party yesterday?
      i: Because every time he tried to integrate, he ended up with himself.
      Pi: Well, he would have ended up with himself and a constant, and by integrating further he could end up with any polynomial he wanted.
      i: Nah, he wouldn't befriend a constant. He has limits...(-inf to x)

  • @arrheniusleibniz
    @arrheniusleibniz Před 9 měsíci

    I really enjoyed the video and also appreciate the clear and comprehensive explanation by Prof. Ed Copeland. Much thanks, Numberphile.

  • @malignusvonbottershnike563

    Yo, I tried working through this exact proof yesterday; it was a Cambridge entry exam question where they guided you through it, and I could not figure out the last bit. So thanks for this video, perfect timing!

  • @vikraal6974
    @vikraal6974 Před 3 lety +4

    15:05 Professor stole the spell, Lord Voldemort does not look happy.

  • @Tom_Het
    @Tom_Het Před 3 lety +7

    3:13 I guess the reason why it's useful in my line of work is just that with imaginary powers, it has 1:1 mapping of radians. That makes it invaluable for frequency analysis.
    It's not obvious on looking at the plot, but I believe that property is inextricably linked to the other one that e^x is its own derivative. To see why, you'd have to look at its Taylor series and compare it to those of sine and cosine.
    It also helps you derive trig identities using only algebra.

  • @werdwerdus
    @werdwerdus Před 3 lety +1

    ed has the most soothing presentation style and voice

  • @derrikconrad4235
    @derrikconrad4235 Před 3 lety +2

    There is a mistake at 11:18 in the equation presented. The top already factored out the q+1, so it is supposed to be q+2 and q+3.
    Sorry. I loved the video! Ed is great!

  • @PaulPaulPaulson
    @PaulPaulPaulson Před 3 lety +7

    0:36 "What actually is e?" "O"

  • @shoo7130
    @shoo7130 Před rokem +1

    @3:14 My answer: Any k^x looks the same if you ignore the scale. e is the value of k where no scaling is required after you differentiate it. It's like the inflexion point or the origin for that scaling. Consequently it pops out as a sort of 'correction factor' when you make other values of k and the derivatives fit the curve.

  • @deifiedtitan
    @deifiedtitan Před 3 lety +1

    Always a pleasure to see Prof. Copeland on the show.

  • @jangoofy
    @jangoofy Před 3 lety +49

    Never ask a mathematician why that is useful, enjoying it for its beauty is ok.

    • @JamesSpeiser
      @JamesSpeiser Před 3 lety +1

      never ask why something mathematical is useful lol

    • @patxmcq
      @patxmcq Před 3 lety +5

      @@JamesSpeiser It's okay to ask, just don't ask a mathematician 😂

    • @orionmartoridouriet6834
      @orionmartoridouriet6834 Před 3 lety +9

      Tbh it is a hard question, mainly because there's no easy explanation of what it does. For example, pi is "the circle number", and because everyone knows about circles, everyone can understand how it can be important. But e is "the differentiation number"? That to a layman doesn't sound cool, or useful. But anyone that has ever done Calculus I or greater knows how practical and everpresent e is

    • @jangoofy
      @jangoofy Před 3 lety +2

      I thank you all for the compound interest on this :-)

    • @jinjunliu2401
      @jinjunliu2401 Před 3 lety

      @@orionmartoridouriet6834 Then call it the "infinite interest number" and people will love it

  • @TheSmegPod
    @TheSmegPod Před 2 lety +3

    So basically for e to be a rational number there would have to be an integer that exists between 0 and 1? Am I understanding that right

  • @darkchibi07
    @darkchibi07 Před 3 lety

    This brings me back. I remember our teacher in a Real Analysis class going over that proof.

  • @nonomnismoriar9601
    @nonomnismoriar9601 Před 3 lety +1

    Great to see Professor Copeland again, more please!!!

  • @JoelRiggs
    @JoelRiggs Před 3 lety +19

    Professor Copeland!!! We’ve missed you.

  • @anon6514
    @anon6514 Před 3 lety +3

    3:13
    "Why is that useful?"
    You have an analytic method for computing derivatives of similar functions with a base other than e that is simple to calculate:
    e.g. f(x) = 2^x
    2^x = e ^ (x ln2)
    then using substitution (chain rule) :
    p = e ^ x
    --> f(p) = p ^ (ln2)
    df/dx = (dp/dx) . (df/dp)
    = [e ^ x] . [(ln2) p ^ (ln2 - 1)]
    = ln2 . [e ^ x] . [e ^ x(ln2 - 1)]
    = ln2 . e^ (x ln 2)
    = ln2 . 2 ^ x
    e can be thought of as a 'natural base'
    in the same way 'ln' can be thought of as the 'natural log'
    It's also why radians are the 'natural' unit for angles.
    Arclength / Radius = Angle
    if and only if you are using radians.
    Does this make tau more "natural" than pi? You decide.

  • @smbvms
    @smbvms Před 3 lety +1

    That is one of the clearest, most detailed explanations I have never understood in my life

  • @xyz.ijk.
    @xyz.ijk. Před 3 lety

    So glad to be back to favorite numbers and their analyses.

  • @bertil0424
    @bertil0424 Před 3 lety +3

    I've never been this early! You're Great Mr Numberphile 😁

    • @ShevkoMore
      @ShevkoMore Před 3 lety +1

      Asking based on ben3847's comment:
      Are you e?

  • @olivianunez7021
    @olivianunez7021 Před 3 lety +3

    If you assume q>1 in 14:50, wouldn’t you have a loose end with q = 1, and then e being an integer, and therefore rational? On the other hand, even if q = 1, you would still get R < 1, so R can’t be a positive integer anyway, so why assume q > 1?

  • @papafreddy2123
    @papafreddy2123 Před 3 lety

    One of the few proofs on Numberphile that I've actually listened all the way through and had no problems understanding it. A clear and detailed explanation that only requires knowledge of a few results that can be easily proven or learnt, hope to see more of these! Thanks Professor Ed!

  • @fackamato
    @fackamato Před 3 lety +1

    I tried to subscribe, it turns out I'm already subscribed. Love this channel!

  • @welovfree
    @welovfree Před 3 lety +33

    i: [Talking to e] Be rational.
    e: Be real.

    • @zanop15
      @zanop15 Před 3 lety +7

      I literally got a hoodie with π and I having this conversation hahahaha

    • @josh11735
      @josh11735 Před 3 lety +5

      Pi comes along and says: I can solve both your problems if we work together.

    • @crumble2000
      @crumble2000 Před 3 lety +1

      @@josh11735 when they get together:
      1: be positive.

  • @the_original_Bilb_Ono
    @the_original_Bilb_Ono Před 3 lety +23

    *Smooth Brains:* doesn't know what _e_ is.
    *Big brain:* proves _e_ is an irrational number.
    *Galaxy Brains:* Proves that _e_ is in fact a letter.

    • @MrGodofcar
      @MrGodofcar Před 3 lety +1

      lol

    • @BPEREZRobertJamesL
      @BPEREZRobertJamesL Před 3 lety

      *Supercluster Brains*: Proves that e is in fact, a symbol.

    • @gandelfy
      @gandelfy Před 3 lety

      Multiverse Brain: *e* is the trancendental signified

    • @MrGodofcar
      @MrGodofcar Před 3 lety

      @@gandelfy What is a "signified"?

  • @HeavyMetalMouse
    @HeavyMetalMouse Před 3 lety +2

    'Why is that important?' - Consider you have some generic continuous function, but only know statements about its various derivatives; this is common in physical systems, where different physical quantities based on position, velocity, acceleration, mass, etc, all have to relate to each other. A complicated function can often be written as a combination of simpler functions, and as mentioned, the e^x function never 'goes away' no matter how you differentiate or integrate it, while other functions kind of 'shrivel away'. So if you can write your mystery unknown function in terms of some e^x part and some non-e^x part that combine in some way, you can often end up with a bunch of stuff that can factor out, since all those e^x parts are going to hang around when you plug them in. This often ends up making finding the 'other part' a lot easier.
    Put another way, having a function that self-generates under differentiation gives you a 'stable spot' from which to look for other parts of the answer to large classes of problems. e^x on the reals contains exponential growth, which is common in systems. On the complex numbers, e^x contains oscillations around a central value, which is also common in systems. So you end up with a single function that can codify two very common behaviours, *and* which is self-stable to the kinds of equations you often have to solve to deal with physical systems.

  • @uzor123
    @uzor123 Před 3 lety

    I enjoyed this video. It was very clear and easy to follow.

  • @XEinstein
    @XEinstein Před 3 lety +6

    I though that nowadays everyone is trying to keep R < 1 🤔

  • @LeventK
    @LeventK Před 3 lety +45

    You lost me at "today"

    • @mimiashford5544
      @mimiashford5544 Před 3 lety +2

      I laughed so hard at this I woke all my dogs up!!!

    • @stardustreverie6880
      @stardustreverie6880 Před 3 lety +1

      I laughed so hard at this I woke all my cats up!!!

    • @anujbangad3973
      @anujbangad3973 Před 3 lety +2

      I laughed so hard at this I woke up nobody🐱🐶

    • @matthewstuckenbruck5834
      @matthewstuckenbruck5834 Před 3 lety +1

      Yeah, I feel like this proof wasn't very satisfying. I was kinda sitting there like "Okay, I don't disagree with any of this I guess" but it was kind of hard to follow.

  • @Sciencedoneright
    @Sciencedoneright Před 3 lety +1

    Who else just loves the professor's calm voice on everything?

  • @rajibalam9748
    @rajibalam9748 Před 3 lety

    Professor Copeland has a wonderful way of talking and teaching. He also seems like a very nice man. I wish I had him as one of my math teachers in uni.

  • @thomaskaldahl196
    @thomaskaldahl196 Před 3 lety +4

    0:44 Actually, I reckon if you differentiate e you get 0

  • @Smittel
    @Smittel Před 3 lety +3

    take a shot every time he says "integer"

  • @TheNethIafin
    @TheNethIafin Před 3 lety +1

    3:15 it's useful because it simplifies solving differential equations. That's why you see e^f(x) everywhere in analysis (or sin/cos which is e^ix in disguise)

  • @pimcoenders-with-a-c1725
    @pimcoenders-with-a-c1725 Před 3 lety +1

    Lovely! Beautiful proof by Fourier, and beautifully demonstrated!

  • @naswinger
    @naswinger Před 3 lety +7

    the video must have been shot over a year ago asking about "what if someone approached you at the pub"