Nontraditional Narcissists
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2021
- Learn more about mental health from Dr. K: bit.ly/3i8R8q7
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#Narcissism #Psychology #narcissist
Just a quick clarification, narcissism is a spectrum. Everyone has aspects of narcissism within them, it's really a part of being human. Narcissism vs. Narcissistic Personality Disorder are two distinctions to make when thinking about if you are a narcissist. We saw a lot of people in chat say "that's me" and wanted to make this clarification. Dr. K brings it up in the video, but also wanted to highlight it here.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm still a little confused. If narcissism is a part of everyones personality to some extent then is it ever healthy to in certain situations act narcissisticly?
If you're legitimately better than someone at X is it narcissistic to recognize that and act accordingly?
25:25
I what to say thank u 🙏 u are the first one to say this when I was 8 up to my 17 birthday I was mis treated by my step dad no SA! and my family is saying let it go They don’t understand what I feel or what I went through thank u HG im now 28 and it hurts me that I didn’t protect my sister and me I could have done a lot to proevend this ending up to 9 years no one cares in my family only my father understands
Skellytoon said something intersting at 17:44. "Can a person be a Hybrid of both? None tradional/Tradional" I've been called a Narcistical but if i compared it to what you said and the drawing it seems to be on both sides of the scale depending on the circumstance etc
@@Mj783980
I agree. I'm glad that he went over this, but I also see something extremely wrong with the concept.
What does it mean about who to be or how to live in the world?
I bet you can feel the vague sense of FREEZING in social situations, because you might not want to transgress against the other.
It creates a situation of uncertainty, and hesitance.
At the end of the day, we all have experiences that inform us about how our behaviors ("Grandiose," arrogant or somewhere in the middle) can create unfavorable situations.
If everyone is on a "spectrum" of a psychological flaw, then what happens when everyone is walking around with a metaphorical gun that's loaded with bullets named with psychological disorders, that of course represent them as well.
Where does this go?
Is psychology about making well adjusted ameba?
His parent reenactment was accurate as hell though. Like talking to a wall.
At the same time, he represents foreknowledge, on the part of the child, and a type of manipulation battle.
When you do this, people can paint you as a narcissist, whether you blow up or not and make others okay with being abusive toward you.
This is a hard thing to balance when you are facing multiple people, some of which sabotage you subtly, creat violent scenarios, throw stones and hide their hands, compete against you, spread false and damaging rumors and also can't think about your needs as a person.
Living in a thing like this, is like being in a MAELSTROM of confusion. It creates violent victims all around you, that vilify you whether you fight back or maintain composure.
You may LEAVE, but then being the new guy all the time, will show you how everyday people exhibit the same behaviors as a family like that.
Living like this, could push you to bringing your own identity to the surface for everyone to see. Out of the awareness that whatever they decide to make up will be much worse, but I guess that's narcissism too.
Setting boundaries with a person who can't perceive or think of you as another being, can be dangerous when they have a social circle and you don't. When everyone "Knows" them, and knew them first, who will they choose to support when that is the one who is creating the problem??
Do you run, or do you adapt and TAKE your position in that realm? Oops... That's narcissistic again?
Some don't know what it's like to have to wear the shoe of the villain, when it's not your shoe, but they insist that it's your size.
You could reject it or accept it (outwardly), but in their minds, the shoe is YOURS regardless. GLHFDD
@@WrathofFenrir99 hahahaha you missed the pool party?
Already happen(ing)ed
"Life is exhausting because we don't understand the rules and noone teaches us."
Yes. My thoughts exactly.
So based
And because other people make it shit
Autists be like
Life is a shitty game. The developers leave it to the players to learn about it and add to it instead of making a proper tutorial.
That's mostly for humans though.
Other animals have a tutorial called "instincts" to help them get through "Life the Game"
@@jaredhead9503 åå
he teaches us about psychology
but he don't teaches us how to get some of that glowing smooth skin
idk if you actually want advice or not but i'd suggest washing your face at least twice a day, drinking at least 2 litres of water every day and showering regularly.
if you have a skin condition/really bad acne you can always talk to a medical professional and get creams or medication :P
Non traditional narcissist spotted.
(BTW, just kidding)
@@alphamorion4314 i was connecting the dots for a moment
Good sleep, good diet, and moisturizer. In that order.
@@soupster857 Can confirm. I was doing it for at least 6 months now and my face really does feel kinda smooth now.
"I can forgive you but don't trust you" I felt so guilty about thinking this way, is nice to hear it's ok to think like that
Lumping forgiveness and trust together is a shortcut many take to avoid thinking about things more than necessary, but sometimes it is necessary to pick it apart like that... There are many different kinds of people in the world with many different kinds of needs... so there has to be more than a few ways to deal with em, especially since one of those unique kinds of people is ourselves! I tell myself that when I feel guilty about this sort of thing, I hope it helps you too
I think this is a very reasonable way to think. If someone has hurt you, you might be able to forgive them but your trust will be broken. This is only logical.
thats how i ended my father manipulation endless drain. "id save your live but ill never love you"
I had to say this to an old friend of mine. We've worked things out so we can have fun together without me having to trust her to be responsible for certain things (she has serious issues from her abusive family, we just have to work around them).
You can forgive someone ("I am not hurt by your actions/words anymore"), while also saying "You did a bad thing, I won't trust you to not do that again, so I'm cutting all ties off with you".
I think we all really need to get this idea out of our heads, that "forgiving" is the same as saying "It's okay". One place to start is to start saying "I forgive you" instead of "It's okay" when someone apologises.
Or put it in a longer version (if necessary): "I love you [that is, "I wish you a good, worry-free, ethical life] but you hurt me, and I'm not going to let that control me. Also, stay away from me because I can't know if you'll ever do it again".
“This person is trapping me but also making me feel like an asshole for being trapped”. Literally word for word how I felt ab one of my friends
It's exactly how I feel about my mom lol
@@octopus4925 me too, it a witch craft run as far as you can
Mhm definitely! I felt this way about one of my friends.
Same for me. My friend was the a-hole. Really weird behavior and words. Would say they had no problems when they surely did have huge issues. Very controlling, creepy.
Think about how hard it would be to escape if the person doing that was your kids' mom.
I think it's extremely necessary to point out that narcissism isn't some anomalous disorder. All humans exhibit these types of traits in limited pockets here and there, but what makes it a disorder is when it becomes the entirety of a persons life. Narcissistic personality disorder describes the fact that the person doesn't have many other dimensions to their personality development, and in some cases they don't have any other dimension to their personality development.
So if you have "signs" of narcissism, but don't exhibit it in every interaction, then you're just another everyday person.
very good distinction to make.
I was already self-diagnosing myself with nontraditional narcisism
@@ivancarrasco2128 That's probably not a good thing to do.
Self diagnosis isn't bad in general, but when it comes to disorders that are not "self aware", if you're actively self diagnosing then I don't think that you could be considered that thing.
Again when it comes to traits vs disorders, one can arise at certain times and the go away until later, whereas the other is always there. So if you always thinking that you're owed stuff by others (be it money, time, attention, etc...) Then. I'd say you could be considered a narcissist. If not then there might be something else there that you're not fully understanding about yourself, and I would suggest seeking therapy or counseling.
thank god i was starting to feel attacked. I feel as long as i am able to reconginze these thoughts when they accure, i can do a better job at quelling them as i am more aware of it.
thank you man great input
My therapist called narcissism 'compensating a low self worth with exactly the opposite'.
It's all "mind games", bro.
Except for the covert (aka vulnerable) narcissists who use victimhood as their shield for low self worth.
It can be that, but not always!
@@SuperLotus true this happens very often
@@SuperLotus Could you explain please?
33:50. This is so accurate... omg. "They will continue asking you questions, they will continue talking to you until they wear you down, become cognitively disinhibited, can't control your emotions anymore, and then if you lash out at them, they will feel vindicated."
Yeah, my dad does his best to take advantage of my processing disorder, to wear me down so he can get me to fall for his other tricks. It's debilitating and the best I can do after trying so hard to learn to communicate in a healthier way is move out and cut him off. I ran away once and even with how hard it was and how clueless I was, I gained more self confidence and competence in 1 year than over 25 years of trying to learn from him and the rest of my family. Narcissists play conversations like a card game, and they want to hold all the cards and leave you with none so they can just play you.
My ex pulled this exact thing over a shopping cart. The whole thing left me mentally fked up for days.
@@justacoginthefkery Watch out for it man!! Shit like this truly sucks to experience.... next time it happens try to take his advice and just leave the situation. I know that's rough sometimes, but it's the best for you!
Good thing she's your ex now, right? : )
He's been gone for 3 yrs so I'm good now, but thx 🤗 Normally, walking away would be the thing at a certain point. In that particular situation, he was driving so I was literally trapped in the car. Pretty sure it was the whole point though... he wanted to feel in control so he created a situation to manipulate my emotions when I couldn't easily get away.
@@justacoginthefkery a former friend of mine pulled this on me over a scheduling disagreement. I can't trust him with simple things like knowing when I'm online now because it turns into the spanish inquisition if he doesn't like how I'm spending my time. As soon as I'm in a position where I'm sure he can't throw a tantrum and potentially destroy my stuff I'm cutting contact.
I realized I was covertly narcissistic long enough ago that I notice any time I have manipulative thoughts and keep myself from acting on them, however there is still this same hurt of having even felt these thoughts in the first place. It feels bad to hear a friend to well and feeling such intense sense of envy that I want to put them down, or that I wish others wouldn't do something together because I can't join in. I hate the thought that deep down I still think of people as tools despite my best efforts to the contrary. I don't think the people I talk with notice it, which is a good thing I think, but it still hurts to have a shitty first reaction.
My advice is this: even if you have bad thoughts try to compensate with good actions, even if you have envy towards someone just accept that you are envious and do the thing that you think is right.
maybe try talking to someone about it, perhaps a therapist
I feel like the fact that you choose to reject that way of thinking (or at least recognize that it is wrong) represents you much more than those thoughts do. Do you really think of people as "tools" if you try your best to be kind to them despite the way you feel?
Every time you catch the thoughts is a victory. Try to learn to celebrate catching them - you are playing the game of "I don't want to hurt other people" - and you just scored a point.
If you can't turn the thoughts off, just accept them - chances are you are actually feeling hurt in some way and putting yourself down for that isn't going to help you at all. When you have a thought like that, try to imagine what would happen if you said that to the person/people who triggered it; how would they react? how would they feel? Then do the reverse; try to imagine how you would react and feel if someone else said those thoughts to you.
It's pretty natural to feel hurt due to being excluded even without there being such patterns in your past - it's quite irrational to put the people down for it though. It's in the diagram in the video that these irrational thoughts start from hurt, so it's better to comfort that hurt (by yourself or by someone who understands) than to suppress the thoughts (and to also accept the guilt from thinking those thoughts). It's kinda weird but emotions are often far more "rational" than the thoughts that are produced from and for them, somewhat like how we had all sorts of explanations for why the sun comes up in the morning and goes down in the evening but there's only one real explanation for that phenomenon.
Guilt feels bad (since it is a kind of suffering) but that's because you have some degree of attachment to being a virtuous person. I'd say that some part of your ego is built on that, but that doesn't mean that it isn't also an intrinsic quality that you have. It might be good for you to communicate to someone (after establishing proper boundaries for the conversation, namely making it clear that you want them to be honest in their thoughts and to not just reassure you) how you feel - from the thoughts to the guilt - and to accept their response, whatever it may be. They might never want to talk to you again but the chances for that are slim. Listening to what they feel and think about you will help you separate yourself from how you think are perceived.
From my view, it seems like you feel hurt because of exclusion, and the hurt makes you demean the people who excluded you, and doing that makes you feel guilty. Guilt at the barest sign of the possibility of external harm makes me think you're at least not evil, but I'm also quite separated from you so it's easier for me to see these things.
In terms of communication, if you want to reach out to one of the people you talk with for that purpose (maybe they're part of the group activity you weren't invited to) you have to start by making clear that you aren't telling them your feelings because you want to be invited in the future. Your traits that make you think you're a covert narcissist have an AOE taunt-like effect that make people feel bad for you and try to fix your issues. The goal for your communication partner would be to be able to sit with that feeling of pity and not act on it, just like how you don't act on your thoughts. If they feel bad that you're hurt by something, that's okay, they don't have to do anything about it at all, at least not in terms of changing their plans or whatnot - in the moment they may choose to comfort you (again, you have to make sure they don't try to reassure you - comfort and reassurance can be totally separate).
The short sweet way I’ve always explained this is the Overt Narcissist is the king. The Covert Narcissist is the martyr. One thinks they are the only thing happening to the world, the other thinks the world is only happening to them. One is grandiosely delusional, the other is negatively delusional but both can’t help but think the world revolves around them.
These always make me sad because the formula for narcissism seems to be authenticity until you have to walk away. You can't walk away from your parent when you're 15.
Well then you just have to endure it until you're able to move out.
My parents are both narcissists and I've had problems with them since 13-14 yo. I'm 18 now and moving out soon. The 4 years having to live with Narcissistic parents as a teen were absolute hell but you CAN endure them. You will survive.Get a side job, you will have to interact less with the people at home plus save for when you're moving out.
My dad's narcissistic, and... without friends that understood what was really going on, he broke me and it took til I ran away at 27 years old to remember that I'm worth better. Some of my young friends online have narcissistic parents, too. There indeed isn't a lot you can do at that age to establish boundaries. Helps if you can get a job or some activity away from that, but that's not accessible to everyone...
The best thing to do is make friends (online is often the most accessible, but vibe checking for predatory or toxic behaviour from online friends has some differences from offline signs because it's a different culture, medium, and environment) and create a social space away from those parents. One where you can open up about what's happening without being shut down (hard to tell the difference between being shut down and maintaining sustainable boundaries, because there's a fine line between healthy commiseration and draining eachother with negativity) and also share good times. Both should serve to heal and remind y'all what healthy relationships and communication are like. Keep learning about psychology, healthy communication, relationships. Narcissistic parents will teach things that sabotage mental health, and it's a battle to unlearn them and grow better things in their place.
It is awful and horrific and takes years to recover from those final years stuck with your parent but indeed you can survive them and once you're an adult you can be free
17:02 “But at the end of the day you’re not considering them. You’re just thinking about how they think about you.” Words of truth
"I will forgive but I won't forget, and I hope you know you've lost my respect"
I sung it in his voice from the first 3 words, jeez. My highschool years came back to kick me in the balls for 3 seconds.
I will not forgive lol and I def won’t forget :/
Holy shit the examples in the last half was almost like he knew my mom for like 20 years and did a spot on impression of her.
Sorry bro, that fucking sucks.
I was like dam... 🤣🤣
Same 😩 Is this much more common than I realized? It's like he knew my mom longer than I do
It's so common that I see a lot of mainstream narratives treat it as normal and just "a part of life"! Pay close attention whenever people say something like "everyone hates their parents until they've moved out, then they'll miss them" ...Not every kid moves out because they can't stand their parents, though. And not every kid who moves out hating their parents crawls back to them. And take care to notice how much it sounds like the way abusive partners tell the one leaving that they'll come back soon enough. I have a big hypothesis that many people who say that stuff have normalized unhealthy parent and child relationships.
@@TheCorty I think you are so right, I'm glad you've brought it up. Excellent example btw. I have experienced it, too, and I can't count how many times I've been told that. This myth is extremely popular where I live, it's so gross and annoying. Also, victims CAN miss their abusers due to codependency, it happens! Just because you miss someone doesn't mean they are good for you. Such a manipulative statement.
Remember that "every brother and sister fights, but when you grow up you'll become best buds"? Everyone would tell me that about my violent bully brother. Yeah, well, siblings from other families I've seen treated each other with so much care it was mind-blowing for me. Their occasional fights were nowhere near ours. My brother is now a middle aged man and he has only become worse, I don't want to see him (or any other family member) ever again. God, I hate when people say that.
I am a non traditional narcissist and I hate it. The main issue is it feels almost uncontrollable and the people I’ve lost due to my own actions only further concrete the original foundation of the disorder. And it sucks when society views narcisicism as an equivalent to a toxic person, or bad person: I don’t want to be this way and all I really want is to repair relationships I have lost. I will continue to try. Thanks for this video. It helped a lot.
I meet people like you and can still have a good time, I think cause I grew up with narcissistic parents. I know what you mean though too, but know that there are people in this world understanding enough to love AND like you (both important, watch Bojack Horseman) so keep that head up !
Hope you can achieve this goal
So change. .
@@themysticmuse Corey is trying but change is not overnight. Did you watch the video? Non-traditional narcissists stem from low self esteem, and realistically this mental battle can take a long fucking time
@@Fart_Simpson yeah.
I didn't mean that to be heartless. It DOES come across that way. I was just surprised to see someone so self aware. As the narcissists in my life, don't want to. They seem happy to be that way.
I've never forgiven my biological father for his abusive ways, I don't want to have a relationship with him, but it's not based on hate or anger. I just know that he's a person with a broken personality and it would be a bad thing to have him in my life at any point. So, I would say that you can move on without forgiving someone.
I think forgiveness is necessary if you still strongly resent that person to an extent that it eats you up inside. If you reach acceptance in a different route that works too.
Yeah. I prefer the term 'moving on' as opposed to forgiveness.
thats an interesting perspective. I have never experienced an extreme experience like abusive relationships, but I watched a podcast of David Goggins, he and his mother were abused extremely terribly, and his father was also a suspected criminal, but David finally forgave his father's actions, but then never met him again after an aggressive confrontation
Same boat. It is not forgiveness you seek, but insteed acceptance. Accept reality for what happened, learn how its impacted you, and move on in your healthiest way possible :)
If you don’t help your dad who will?
“You can get frustrated at the rain for making you wet or you can grab an umbrella and move to Arizona where it never rains.”
Agree
When I heard "I don't have self-worth on the inside, then I need to get it from the outside", my mind came up with the term "Emotional Osmosis". Like a cell equalizing the amount of water inside and outside itself, if you have low self-worth inside, you leech it in through your outer walls. Both types of narcissism are just two strategies for doing that same thing. Conversely, if you have high self-worth inside, in that you're confident in your own worth, you're secure enough to provide that value outwardly to the people and the world around you. These are the types of people who you feel really good around because they're non-judgmental, curious/interested in you (because they're not self-absorbed like the 2 types of narcissists), and freely share their value with you. That's the type of person you'll be if you are secure in your own worth, being neither above or below anyone else. As long as you aren't secure in your worth, you will be leeching it away from the outside world and other people by Emotional Osmosis, which feels like the opposite of the secure person: judgmental (making value judgments on what others think of you), self-absorbed (you have no curiosity or interest in others, only thinking about how they perceive you), and hoarding value for yourself (you can't share what you feel you don't have or are desperate for).
Written by a non-traditional narcissist.
Thank you. This actually makes a lot of sense and unfortunately makes me realize I probably am a covert narcissist and didn’t even know it. 😔
This is a great analogy, and it also shows how awesome ppl get hurt by others. They are willing to give love, and validation, and be open, and some people are willing to take advantage of that and suck it all up and give nothing in return.
@unionunicorn6776 That you're considering it puts you ahead of the curve.
I've known more than my share of narcissists. One of the hardest realizations I had was that I saw the value of people who couldn't see it in themselves. When I tried to show them they attacked me for it. So I left.
If any narcissist ever wants to break free they must do what you've already started to, and confront it.
I genuinely believe there's a cure for the emptiness and envy. But it would certainly be scary. If you want to tackle this be good to those who genuinely care about you. It would be far harder to go it alone.
Be well.
Every professional I listen/talk to is telling me there's nothing you can do to fix someone's narcissism. I was really hoping there was a way, since I feel like there's so many of them out there. The pain that internalizes low-self worth that in turn creates narcissism seems so common, particularly during formative years. What can we do when an especially bad narcissist decides to raise children or rises to a position of authority and power, these kinds of people can do so much damage to our society and I feel like people underestimate the problem.
I've realized I'm a covert narcissist a couple years ago and went on my own journey fixing my self-esteem without relying on manipulating others. It's a tough road, even more without any available guides for the self-aware narcissists and no way to confirm what I do wrong and how to do things right, because I don't know how being normal is like. I agree that this matter should really be addressed more.
For children, you can try to alert child services, although their bar for action is pretty high. You can also talk with their teachers and other people in their life.
For people abusing their power - for any reason - you can try to take the power away from them through official channels set up to keep people from abusing power.
Neither of those are perfect, easy, or foolproof, but it's all I've got. Good luck.
IMO a narcissist rising to power is much less dangerous without a narcissistic populace. If 51%+ of the population is narcissistic and pointed to an enemy, get rdy for a rough ride.
im pretty sure ONLY narcissists have societal control right now. you have to be willing to destroy many lives to rise to power with the way the world works right now
@@notbrad4873 what? do you have any idea how many lives get ripped from this earth just to produce all that crap? the majority of the junk we consume is made by people who if we were to swap places with them, we'd consider it slavery.
I'm 37. It took 1 year; 3 Psych sessions a week; JUST to work on MYSELF and overcome my PTSD. It took another FULL year to finally let go of my Mother. To accept her and recognize she has had a traumatic upbringing, herself. To forgive her; to finally set boundaries without feeling guilt or shame. She lives 4 doors down from me. I see her maybe a few times a year, and only because it can't be helped. This shit takes time. Remember to be kind to yourself, and not set any expectations of how long it should or could take
Hope you're doing well a year later friend
hope you are doing good now :)
I hope you’re well now !
Best wishes from the internet, stranger. Your outlook is admirable and I respect you more for it. I hope things are well.
I don't know your story of course, but I am feeling a lot of connections to my own experience. Godspeed man, thanks for sharing
I thought my mother was like this, but we had a great conversation sometime around my early adult life where I asked her to stop assuming my thoughts, or reacting based on what she thinks about me. It was really helpful, we've had no issues since honestly. Sometimes, it's communication. My closest friend's mother, however, is an actual manipulative narcissist, worse even than the caricatures depicted here, almost to a ridiculous degree which, unfortunately, no amount of healthy conversation would address. Like Dr K said; if there's rain, get an umbrella or get wet.
Robert Greene's (my favorite author) most recent book The Laws of Human Nature has a great chapter on narcissism. His recommendation is developing empathy and an external focus. Trying to get outside of yourself (meditation really helps here) and really getting into the world/people outside of yourself. Takes work but opens up life, opportunities, and feeling like you are living in life rather than in your head.
@@JohnSmith-mc2zz I disagree that its mostly fluff. His books are among the few among hundreds I've read that really have helped me with real people in real life in a positive direction. Also sounds like you haven't read him. You might want to give it a shot. Just my 0.02 cents.
@@TheGreektrojan I think you mean my 0.02$, or your 2 cents ;)
@@TheGreektrojan Word. Thanks for the recommendation.
I don't remember reading that. That book has been out for a while, hasn't it?
Thank you this was actually a beneficial recommendation. I was disappointed in the video because Dr K didn’t even try to answer OPs question about how self aware narcissists can improve their behavior so they are no longer acting in a narcissistic manner.
About the therapy bit: my mother used therapy as a threat and as munition for her manipulation for years, starting since I was 9 years old, saying that my relatives thought I was sick in the head and needed help. I didn't understand what therapy was, so I thought it was this thing you got when you were really bad and was shameful. Then when I got therapy for myself at 18 because I dated an older sociopath since I was 16, I started to unravel a bunch of stuff that lead me to realizing what sort of family I really had. Then when I suggested mother get therapy, she started using therapy in the way of, "This is what I said about you to my therapist" and "This is what my therapist really thinks about you." Getting your narcissistic parent to therapy is not the final boss.
True many healthcare professionals feel it can even be dangerous to take narcissist to therapy especially if it is not someone who specializes i treating them.
Our first reaction is only wrong if we act on it. We should measure it by the Law of God; “ love thy neighbours as you love yourself”.❤ Any other feeling is just like a fly, buzzing past.
True they gotta go to a specialist who knows what's up and won't let them off the hook
@@granmabern5283 I think you are in the wrong area of youtube...
Kind of same. My parents shoved me into "therapy" so many times under the premise of "our kid is evil and we need you to slap some sense into them and make them like us." But of course, they were the abusive ones. My mom's in therapy now but she is getting more and more vitriolic towards me after every appointment
Holy shit... that's literally making so much sense to me now, I attract this kind of narcissism to me. I am very used to giving everything away to prove to a narcissist that they are awesome and they matter, and I am used to being treated like an object that helps them boost their ego. That is what love's been to me my whole life. That is crazy.
rip
fuck. me too 😂 narcissistic parents?
That’s the dynamic women tend to put men in
@@heythere6983 The ego most women have in this day and age is insane, I imagine that comes with being handed almost everything at birth like infinite compliments and pampering along with easier access to whatever they would want at any moment. now they just look for novelty until it runs out, then its off to the next fix because they have unlimited opportunities and options, why would they worry about ANYTHING? unless its something they realize they cant get. honestly horrifying how antisocial women can be/are. and nobody bats a eye to it.
Maybe you have PTSD or something. These vampires can smell the people pleasing
One of the tips I was given when I was a teenager that helped me realize I was falling into typical narcissistic behavior. ( Which I feel all teenagers go through, part of the learning who I am.) Is when you are so focused on you and your wants yourself and how others aren’t seeing you or treating you how you want to be seen or treated. You stop and ask yourself how do you see them? how do you treat them and can you do something to change this? If you truly consider them first. ( treat them kindly and speak with them respectfully. )and they still treat you poorly then it’s on them and not a reflection of you. This is really important to Know and feel at peace with yourself about. If you realize that maybe you aren’t really treating them kindly your always asking but never giving then find areas that you are willing to be flexible. ie.. spending a bit more time listening then talking or helping them with there projects once an awhile. I don’t know if that will help anyone but listening to this video reminded me of this and I wanted to share incase it can help anyone the way it helped me.
thank you !
but i have a question , if i behave kindly so that they will be kind to me isnt that manipulation again?
I remember reading somewhere like... when having a conversation, try to be as equal as possible with the "I, me, myself" and "you/yourself" aka, ask about someone else about as often as you talk about yourself. And I think what may or may not have been indicated, is to genuinely pay attention to when they are given the chance to talk about themselves.
@@vinayabhat6006 I think that’s a natural, healthy kind of manipulation, if you wanna call it that. We all hope that others will treat us fairly and kindly, and most people will try to invite this behavior by being somewhat fair and kind themselves. It’s natural.
21:45 "you can forgive someone and never talk to them again" YES and 22:12 best break up talk, so good.
Oof, this video hurt. Literally, every feature of non-traditional narcissist decribes me. This helped a ton with laying out what exactly was going on in my head. I always knew I was narcissistic in some way but couldn't put my finger on how. Really made me reflect on how this affects many of my long term relationships negatively. Thank you for this video.
"I don't hate you, I just find you intolerable" can I actually say that?
I watch this channel mostly because the content is related to some of the parenting concerns I have around my 14 yo gamer/gifted kiddo, but this video was so helpful and touching in a moment when I am suffering with a covert narc. I had that in my life once before and with a councilor I was able to establish healthy boundaries and build a tolerable relationship, but I have a new person bringing these sick behaviors and it has not only thrown me for a loop, but brought up a lot of old stuff... Thanks for the work you do.
You can say that to any person whose power in your relationship is equal to or higher than yours. Parents, soon to be former friends, exes... You could even say "I truly do hate you, and will never forgive for the rest of my life", if you truly mean it. And you're sure that won't earn you a hard slap or worse. Safety first is a good principle to go with.
To someone I hold power over, I'd personally rather say something like "I love you, but I find your current behavior intolerable". I would be very careful to point out that it's the behavior I have issues with, not the person. And I'd try to be as specific as possible about which exact behavior it is that's problematic.
I'm not a professional though. Just a child of difficult parents, and parent of a child with a bunch of challenges that (earlier) resulted in a lot of anger needing to he taken out at home. And I have somehow managed to not make the child resent me for life, partly by letting professionals get involved when it was needed.
Concur about power dynamics. As a covert narcissist I've consciously gone out of my way to reject having power in a relationship because it's awkward as hell. But you can't really function in society without being in some power dynamic relationship. At work I have peers and I have managers. So, it's really helpful for me to be told what behaviors specifically to stop doing and whete the boundaries are, but, it's really not easy for me to stop being needy.
Yep I told my brother and father this. And I’m free baby lol.
you can present it like some kind of allergy... like "I don't hate you but I know you're bad for me so I'd rather avoid you rather than ending up ressenting/hating you"
How are you doing now? How's your son doing?
I'm glad you said that it is OK for people to not forgive, especially trauma survivors. I've had people make me feel like it should be some horrible sin for me to not forgive the people and institutions that damaged me. I think it would be actually be a sin to forgive them when they will not admit any wrong doing and continue to harm others.
Forgive as freely or stringently as you please, dear friend.
Anyone telling you that you must do it their way is a narcissist themselves.
Forgive for your own sake so you don’t hold on to resentment. It’s not for the institutions and people that have abused you.
@@jaredmellobut if I've done nothing that NEEDS forgiveness why do I need to forgive someone who really fucked up my life?
@@afreaknamedallie1707 forgive is maybe not the right word. Letting go of resentment is what I mean.
I agree. I'll write it off as bad debt (so to speak), but otherwise the account is closed.
5 years ago I went through a state of severe emotional crisis and I leaned a lot on my friends and family.
After the inital crisis was over, my bestie said to me 'our relationship needs to change because you cant depend on me like this. I know you did what you could and got all the help you could get but this cant continue'. And I was like.
Kay.
So I did start working on myself, I did want to adjust and work on these things. She was absolutely right and we did work together to rebuild our friendship and both be healthy. I needed to feel secure with myself, started working on the skills to proces my own emotions and become transparent with my needs. She needed to work on boundary setting and also being transparent in her needs to prevent people from overstepping her boundaries.
I should mention that we are both autistic, we both come from problematic house holds and we knew that this was a learning proces of the both of us. It was without blame/guilttripping. We both needed to build our skills set.
And it took time. About 3 years to be exact.
Sometimes people dont know any better and try to figure shit out. And then there are people that just refuse to learn, refuse to accept and refuse to listen. Resort to blame when someone points them on their behavior. Those are the people I take offense with.
As an autistic person myself, I’m extremely impressed with how you and your friend showed such insight and were able to repair your relationship.
"I don't hate you, I just find you intolerable" is something I really should have said to my mom when I was much younger. Maybe that would have gotten through to her. I loved (and still love) her so much but could only handle her in small doses. My dad could live with me and I'd never get sick of him. My mom thought that meant I love my dad more, but I really just get along with him better which is so different.
OMG that representation of "Mom" is so on point
Guys, everyone has at least a healthy amount of narcissism. There are 3 distinctions that need to be made: healthy narcissism, people with narcissistic traits, and people with narcissistic personality disorder.
There's no such thing as healthy narcissism.
Narcissism, by definition, is an UNhealthy obsession with yourself. the NAMESAKE of the disorder was so obsessed with himself he starved to death looking at his own reflection.
Self confidence, self worth, and self care are NOT narcissism.
@@lucaswinsor4469 As HealthyGamerGG stated in their pinned message, EVERYONE has aspects of narcissism within them. We NEED to be selfish, confident and love ourselves in moderation. It only becomes unhealthy when it's done to an excessive degree and starts hurting and affecting other people.
I encourage you to learn more about narcissism as it is more than simply an obsession with yourself. Narcissism exists on a continuum, ranging from healthy to pathological. It isn't as black and white as most people perceive narcissism to be.
@@lexitao3022 I'm saying I don't agree with that assessment. Aspects of narcissism isn't the same as narcissism itself.
@@lucaswinsor4469 that is a shallow and basically incorrect understanding of what narcissim is. It looks on the outside like the person thinks obbsessively highly of themselves, but what actually fuels that behavior is a critically fragile and low self esteem. That doesn't mean what they do isn't wrong, it is, but you have to understand where it comes from.
@@KD-ou2np Thank you, I appreciate you. I gave up trying to convince him because he seems incredibly obstinate. And it seems he may have deleted his first comment?
Anyways I'm glad you seem to have a deeper understanding of what narcissism is. Stay well.
Im amazed at how similarly this manifests with some traits of Autism spectrum disorder. It kinda scares the shit out of me that I can barely tell the difference between my diagnosis and this before I researched it further.
I had this experience too, this explains some things, thank you.
I have autism and I was abused by a narcissist. I don't understand the confusion?
Autism can appear that way but it depends on the inner work of the individual. I'm ASD but I don't lash out at people nor am I entitled to anything from anyone. I also share openly with those around me but I'm not seeking anything from them or judging them in the process to the best of my ability. I can't speak for other ASD folk since it's highly individual...Any defenses I have are from other npd or BPD abuse. So ASD people can shut down but it's more nuanced, you have to look at all the context in their lives...
If you have met one person with ASD then you have met one person with ASD.
Every autistic person is different.
Your explanation is gold. A year of reading self help books, studying personally disorders, and actual therapy you've boiled down to a single video. Anyone watching this, please set your ego aside and listen because he's speaking truth. Your life will improve so much.
So the last time I talked to my narcissistic dad, I used your “so what I’m hearing is” template and it saved me from having to argue by just mirroring the holes in his arguments after they were reflected back to him. I was literally thanking you in my mind!
When I think of what people call "covert narcissism" I think of what borderline personality disorder is at the extreme end of the spectrum. Of course it is all labels and semantics for a certain set of behaviors. NPD and BPD are two sides of the same coin and both are manifestations of insecure attachment styles. I get a bit irked by the internet's description of narcissism because it's usually not based on the DSM or clinical practicality. But I do appreciate you clarifying the underlying insecurity that drives narcissism. There are many professionals out there that weaponize narcissism and shame those that are already suffering.
It took me years to learn about my father's narcissistic traits, since he was never obviously arrogant I always assumend there must be sth wrong with me. People loved him and praised him how great he is and like a father figure to them. But that was not how he was to us in the family. When he was home he was distant and cold
Sounds exactly like how my father was when I was growing up. He'd beat us for misbehaving in the slightest and people in our neighborhood always thought he was a nice guy and looked up to him.
What separates a covert narcissist from simply someone with low self-esteem who is hurt and actually needy, but is slandered as being manipulative because their neediness is irritating to some people who lack compassion or understanding of this damaged person, and see them as an inconvenient irritant? This seems like a very difficult thing to navigate or to separate from other personalities or conditions. It seems like an individual being appealed to by someone with low self-esteem, but then giving the cold shoulder and 0 compassion could sometimes be the actual narcissist in a relationship. Though a fly-on-the wall pov to more objectively judge and witness an observable pattern being sustained persistently might be the most revealing of what the intent and emotional range is on both sides and what dynamics are at play in the relationship, which itself might be what's toxic, and not necessarily the individuals-at least in some scenarios that appear differently from the outside and without intense scrutiny.
I don't think there is a difference. Low self-esteem is the root of narcissism, and it just shows itself in different ways. I feel as if narcissism itself is a sort of coping mechanism to low self-esteem, where one needs validation externally no matter how they get it, instead of being internally validated.
@@theflyingnegro5063 That certainly describes one particular situation, but there are others. There are (I think fairly obviously) many with low-self esteem who aren't narcissists, but who may come off differently depending on the situation. (trying not to repeat myself here) Anything can be viewed (filtered) as something it's not if the approach is that it's simply always manifesting itself differently externally-though there are absolutely some types of narcissism that do. That feels like a heavy-handed approach and I'd be wary of inching towards a blanket labeling of those with low self-esteem as likely being narcissists. That's not far off from victim blaming since they're often the victims of abuse, sometimes by actual narcissists.
@@awave1 when I say narcissism, I don’t mean people with narcissistic personality disorder, I mean the general term of egoism, as an aspect of humanity, I should’ve made that specification. If you’re looking to external validation for something you don’t have confidence in, that’s a narcissistic tendency. It doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a narcissist though, cause we all do so at some point. Narcissism is on a spectrum in psychology, and those with NPD are simply on the high end of it.
@@awave1 i guess to try and answer your original question, I’d say it just depends how far on the narcissistic spectrum they are. The more self-centered in the literal definition, the more narcissistic.
@@theflyingnegro5063 You can be on the extreme end of being self-centered and not have NPD though. There are different and more broad criteria for that diagnosis. For example, a person can be extremely self-centered, but still have a high capacity for empathy, whereas someone with NPD notably lacks that capacity.
It is incredible how much thoughtfulness and empathy is required of therapists. Listening to this guy talk is what I wish my internal monologue sounds like.
I was drinking water while watching this. When that impromptu roleplay session with the hypothetical narcissistic mom was cycled through, I was impressed. He didn't make it sound easy. He didn't pretend any one thing or even any repeated things were going to work in making the manipulation stop. Too many people sell this narrative that a super manipulative person will respect your boundaries if you just word it in a way that makes sense to them. But the truth is they're 99% of the time too wrapped up in getting something from you to pay attention and take criticism. At best, you can say your piece and take your healthy distance instead of asking or pleading or making appeasements for it. When I heard it from Dr. K here, I thought "This guy gets it, here's a toast to that" and held my glass of water to the screen lmao. Finally.
Huge huge props to the difference between forgiveness, acceptance, and boundaries too. For some people in certain situations, forgiving someone is not going to help them move on. Some people will be haunted by trauma and its damage for the rest of their life, and when that damage is done by a narcisstic person... sometimes hatred is what's needed to build a wall between them and yourself, so they can't make you doubt or hate yourself in your own memories anymore. I believe hatred isn't inherently evil. It serves a purpose that cannot be fully replaced. It sends an alert to yourself that there's a huge problem being perceived and it's not healthy to let things go on like that. But one has to be aware of it and keep it in check so it doesn't hinder you or translate into treating others with cruelty (especially those who haven't earned that hatred).
I was starting to feel like I am a Nontraditional Narcissist, but the only thing I'd say is different about me is that I definitely don't try to manipulate people. Perhaps I do manipulate people sub-consciously, but I definitely don't try to. You seemed to heavily stress that these people are intentionally manipulating others, so maybe I'm not a narcissist. I do often think about what others think of me though, and I feel like I need their approval. If somebody hurts me, I may isolate myself, but not because I'm trying to manipulate them to feel bad, it's just the way I am.
The reason I think I may be a Nontraditional Narcissist is because usually when I have an emotion reaction, It's very much more about me than it is about them. As in, I get to a point that I no longer care what they think of me and I no longer care how they feel. It's closer to a passive reaction than a calculated attempt to make people feel bad for me.
There's definitely something different about my brain than most people.
Would you say that I am a Narcissist or is it possibly another self esteem rooted issue?
So, you should never take a diagnosis from a comment section, but a lot of the things you mentioned are also common in anxiety (especially social anxiety) disorders. I'd say try to keep the self-diagnosing to a minimum because it's so easy to overthink things and only see the symptoms we have and ignore the ones we don't. If you're concerned that you're not getting the help you need, I can honestly only recommend going to a therapist. They're trained to not just notice the signs, but also can have a better idea how consistent they have to be. Anyway, I know this was a bit rambling but I hope I helped even a little!
Gotta go with gamergal on this one. youtube comment sections tend to be anathema to the truth, and when it comes to psychology (a field of medicine that is so easy to mess up that PhDs do it somewhat often), bad shit happens. you want a diagnosis? go to a psychologist/psychiatrist.
Definitely go to a doctor, but to add my 2 cents: the narcissistic manipulation can also be unconscious, it's essentially a self-defense and self-soothing mechanism. Don't rely on my anecdotal evidence, but my grandma was absolutely a covert narcissist (which I've only started to realize recently) and she had absolutely no self-awareness about her manipulation and mind games, nor did she accept any attempts to help her overcome those things.
I haven't seen any comments that say anything about empathy, do you have it? Can you like/love people can you feel when people like/love you? If so, you are not a narc
When dealing with toxic family, you have to deal with the other family trying to coerce you into what amounts to further subjugation.
Dang, that's deep. It's like, there is no true validation to be gained from others. And stepping the fuck up is the only way
I could swear my work colleague-stalker was able to switch between these two types of narcissism.
Your chat and community is quite funny - actually funyy - while being intelligent and respectful, nice.
My sister is high up on the scale of narcissism. I tell her all the time to her face in the kindest way, and she comes close to agreeing (then pretends it never happened), we're very close and I love her enough to be honest.
I just watch as she lives life via every trait. Lying, exaggerating herself and status, not being able to live without validation, spending her money on things she can't afford so she can show off, cheating, having no empathy or compassion or self awareness. When confronted about aaaaanything, she cries and huffs like a child. Nothing can ever be her fault. Keep in mind she is 42, married with 2 children.
I Know it's weird that I don't have any anger towards her, but I think its cause I understand Cluster B PDs. I just worry for her and her kids. Having a Narc parent is no fun. Being a narc is no fun. Narcissists are not renowned for their want to get therapy. Therapy is also still so behind in term of Cluster B PDs.
Love this channel, Always bringing up important topics with respect.
@@GH23d7sL45 Having awareness and a drive to understand is AMAZING! I'm proud of you 👏 remember that regardless of the label, this formed because of trauma and that it isn't your fault. No one can heal when they're demonised and stigmatised. Much love x
@@GH23d7sL45 look up Professor Sam Vaknin. He's the leading researcher for NPD. He is a fully diagnosed narcissist who is a psychologist and has dedicated his life to personality disorders and research! He is the one responsible for the lingo that all the other less accredited CZcams psychs use. I studied psychology with a MASSIVE focus on PDs. BPD and NPD. I promise you that yes it is a combination of things, but that PDs come from a core root of trauma. Self blame, shame, self hatred ..these things all too work to keep you stuck! PDs are said to be incurable, but psychology is evolving every day. We now know that people with BPD for example, experience a decrease in symptoms over time. That's backed up by many studies carried out over time, you can find them within Sam Vaknins content with linked sources and credit so you know that it's very legitimate data.
He has actually developed a programme that will be getting approved very soon. It's a model designed by narcissists for narcissists. It's designed around the concept of that core wound and all of the defense mechanisms that our brain builds up to build a PD. I suggest taking a look!
I have never met a narcissist who is so open about themselves, with such drive to understand. I don't say that to invalidate, I say it to give you hope.
I know I'm just a random girl on the internet, but I have dedicated the last 6 or so years into researching and I'd just love to share what I've found. I'm Autistic too so I am literal, thorough and will never give advice that is not backed up by evidence! I hope this helps even a little 😁
Alok basically imagined and interpreted a whole ass conversation for like fifteen minutes just to illustrate his example.
That’s some commitment right there.
I'd bet that was a reproduction of a lived experience. (I don't know his parents, but I know mine 😂)
Over the past month, this channel has become one of my favorites here on YT. The content is useful, and the subject matter is vast. Thanks for all that you do, HealthyGamerGG.
Second that ❤️
The education this world needs beeing distributed far & wide, it’s beautiful to participate in
My father is a typical narcissist and I hoped to the universe I wouldn't become like him ever. But I think I've became a covert narcissist during my teens and now I'm still trying to heal the remaining traits.
The way I've always sought reassurance through friends that usually were lesser than me, other social outcasts with anxieties, a place I could act like an awesome shameless and charismatic person and see all of these faces of awe.
But never being able to stand out in groups that are way more confident.
I remember acting high and mighty but when it backfired I would do the self deprecating stuff.
Not doing anything with myself but still expecting things to work out, blaming everything other than me, but in silence and solitude. Dying of envy when friends that were just as loosers as me started turning their life around for the better while I was just playing video games and procrastinating, safe in the thought that I was not the only one.
I've felt this could be the case, but the stereotype of narcissistic people being manipulative and outwardly grandiose made me feel maybe I wasn't narcissistic after all.
I guess my road to change is still going.
This is awesome! I thought I had narcissism, turns out I probably just have a low self esteem! Thank you for this! Your knowledge and professionalism shine!
"I love you but I can't tolerate you" is absolutely my new catchphrase
Thank you so much for this Dr.K. This has given me a lot to think about & is helping me have healthier relationships. I’ve been working on this problem for a while but having it put into words like this makes it so much easier to see when I’m doing it. I appreciate it :)
Thank you so much for addressing this. I've ruined a lot of relationships with my self-centered need for approval. It's nice to see that other people struggle with this too, and I'm hopeful that I'll be able to manage my behavior and change.
The last half of this is basically gold, amazingly done
Misunderstanding the nature of humility, integrating false humility and burying arrogance in my unconscious, only for it to manifest itself in disguise has absolutely destroyed everything in my adult life and accepting that is beyond relieving. Yes, I'm embarrassed for being so stupid as to think that I could keep my life in order by looking to others and yes I feel pathetic for taking advantage of others by being needy when I really had all the tools to get it together on my own, but I feel relieved that I don't have to be like this anymore.
You might have other people's well being in mind on the surface, but what's really going on deep down on the inside? Christ preached meekness but he pissed a lot of "meek" people off in the process as well.
"SOMEONE GET THIS GUY SOME AVID" im dead at the chat lol
Losing your ego for a while is an attractive concept, honestly
@@charwyrm8702 from experience it can be amazing, other times terrifying. Its what you put into it friend!
Last time I had what I could only describe as ego death during a trip, I spent the next 2 weeks seeing a literal monkey, an ape, in the mirror, no longer a man, just a super evolved ape, it was really freeing
What is this a reference to?
@@johnathanparker2182 early on in the video a chatter suggests getting the guy some acid. I cba to timestamp it, but it's pretty early on
@@charwyrm8702 Oh! Acid not avid. That makes more sense
This gave me a lot of great insights, thanks Dr.K
ugh my best friend is like this...they overly care about people and what they think but somehow everything is always about them. or no, it's that they are everyone. they project themselves onto _everyone_
they're aware that people react and want different things to them but they all have this eye-roll-i'm-gonna-ignore-it kind of behaviour
Psychology is a weird beast
Just hearing that it is okay to forgive, not forgive, or simply hate already makes me feel a huge weight has lifted. Half my anxiety came from not knowing if what I felt was okay or not.
The last half of this video was so incredibly validating and comforting. Thank you so much. I have a loved one with a diagnosed personality disorder (a parent), and they've been manipulating and abusing me my entire life. Years ago, I decided to "set boundaries", because if I did not I feared I would lose my mind (or die from other health complications caused by the stress levels and anxiety she gives me, I have a condition that is exacerbated by intense periods of anxiety). Every day was a nerve-wracking ordeal where I would wait for the "non-traditional" narcissist to start blowing up my phone. She has varying strategies to feed her "hunger", many of which you talked about, but another one is just plain starting fights about nothing at all. So bad that you are forced (manipulated) into engaging in some ludicrous, fantasy world, completely fabricated conflict of her own creation. I started having panic attacks when the sound of a text message would come in, it got so bad. You know something is very wrong when you are literally afraid to look at your phone. Every time I did not reply to her within a matter of minutes-hours (the time period varied depending on her mood), it would turn into almost the exact conversation you did a mockup of between that person and their mother. Just a lot more extreme. I could miss a text while taking a shower and it was a cardinal sin, I was always being told "what I thought" and "how I felt" about her, when none of it was true remotely. I know she is very unwell, I have known since I was a child, and I am always treading on thin ice. I have accepted that nothing I say or do is going to change the way she behaves, because she is not willing to work on it or even see that something "is not right" in this dysfunctional relationship. When I try to get real and honest with her and explain it's for the sake of building a healthy relationship, she breaks down, says "YOU THINK I AM A MONSTER!", puts horrible words in my mouth and twisted mangled interpretations of the most simple, clearly spoken/written benign things I say. Everything goes back to square 1. Everything is a negative, everything is bad, everything is either black or white (there is no in between), she is "always right" and I mean ALWAYS, I'm some piece of shit but also "I think" she is too (her kind of wording, NOT what I think at all, the putting words in my mouth stuff), and it is always woe is me my ungrateful daughter hates me, etc. Then the abuse begins.
It was just so very validating to hear you say that the tactics I've tried to employ were the correct thing to do. When you are accosted by guilt trips, false accusations, told "how you think/feel" (only I can tell you how I feel, never tell me how I feel!)... it is so exhausting. In my situation, my parent needs support and help and despite many doctors/therapists telling me to cut ties - I cannot do this. So I endure, for 28 years-ish, the abuse and the chaos and the health problems it creates for me. I have a serious stomach syndrome called CVS that tends to rear its head in times of severe anxiety and often lands me in the hospital, I've nearly died during a couple of my hospitalizations due to this condition and still - she has no respect for my boundaries/needs/health/well-being. There have been multiple occasions where she's directly contributed to my need to rush to the ER for another fun hospital stay. I've tried to tell her so many times, in the nicest way, that I just can't take the stress and pressure and verbal/emotional abuse and manipulation. It's all about her, only about her, always her. The only way I get through this is a massive amount of forgiveness, reminding myself she is not mentally well (and that her illness is NOT who she is as a person, it is her illness talking and not her "self", when she is doing alright she is actually very loving and kind and has a wonderful sense of humor), knowing she will not change, and enforcing my boundaries when needed - even if it makes her furious and even more abusive. I just wanted to say thank you because of how hard this hit home for me. I really appreciate you. Thank you so much for this, looking forward to finding the follow-up video. There is so little advice out there on how to deal with parents who can no longer physically abuse you because you are an adult now, but continue to emotionally and mentally abuse you, manipulate you, re-write history and gaslight you, etc. The only advice I get is to cut ties. In my case, she has no one else, she has health problems aside from her mental health and behavioral health diagnoses, she is on constant suicide watch, I CANNOT leave her all alone in the world. All I can do is try to both be there for her and maintain my own health at the same time and it is very very hard. Practicing forgiveness and setting boundaries are all I have.
You are not alone and very wise. BPD mother's are children trapped in adult bodies. Boundaries and managing them at the level of maturity they are at sucks but it's what works until you can go low contact. So your right on the money. I also developed Kryptopyrolle disorder and lifelong methalation issues due from the stress and anxiety of my mom. I'm slowly healing. So right along side you. Luckily people like us keep speaking out and change can happen. Is your dad around? Maybe get him to help with the situation with your mom so you can free yourself to recover. It's a tricky situation
Also part of the illusion is that she can't take care of herself. If she's an adult but not on disability you have no obligation to be there if it's restricting your independence as an adult...if she's on disability but you aren't her appointed caregiver transistion her to another caregiver. There are different laws about adults abusing their children or disabled children, elder abuse is usually between caregiver, not necessarily adult child. I went through similar with my dad. He threatened to cry wolf if I wasn't a slave essentially to him, getting him whatever substance he needed, because he held the "disabled elder" card over my head if I didn't do what he wanted. I was so physically sick at this time I couldn't leave and was so afraid. It was so much trauma and I had to get so much support, I'm still making up for it and reclaiming my life. Her having "no one else" is an excuse to prey and limit you (if she's an able adult and not disabled). Adults have to grow up to solve their own problems. It sounds like she's trying to make it your problem. Anyways just clarifying and sharing what I learned on my journey
Dr K's impression of narcissistic parents sounds like turkey (bird) noises.
I'm not sure quite what it means to call someone a turkey, but it's definitely negative and dismissive
I don't think anyone called anyone a turkey here.
Wow ty 4 this i never wouldve known… wow this cleared up soo much for me
This was great. Gave me the tools to recognise this type of behaviour in myself and in others. Thank you!
Hmm, I think I was a non-traditional narcissist as a teenager. I always wanted validation from other people secretly, but I'd feel bad if I did anything to garner sympathy from them outwardly. Like, I had the self-awareness to not want to make everything all about me... but it felt all about me, y'know?
Inadvertently you end up making everything about you anyway. I know, I’m the same.
Almost anyone wants validation from others, especially teenagers. It's deeply ingrained in our culturally learned behavior to want it and there is good reason to believe we are hard-wired to want social validation because of evolutionary concerns (to survive in a tribal society your tribe needs to accept you). Narcissism is a spectrum.
Teenage personality disorders are a very contentious subject because our society expects teenagers to experiment with different personality styles. Don't worry too much about it. If you have a consistent pattern where you notice that other people are hurt by your actions, then it's time to consider a personality disorder.
Take this with a grain of salt because this is just off of memory... I've heard it said that teenagers, with their development and hormones at their peak, are often clinically insane by adult standards. Being a teenager literally drives you insane. But you grow out of being a teenager by gaining awareness, learning what's healthy and what's not, and learning...about yourself! You change a lot as a teenager, so much it's hard for yourself to keep up with.
i am a teenager rn , and i am realising that i am a non-traditional narc .... you are saying that you "were" one , can you please share how you overcome it ?
@@vinayabhat6006 I think part of the problem was I was always trying to read other people. Like, I would tailor my behaviour to give off the best impression, and then expect praise in return. It helped me to realise that people are gonna think what they think, and I ultimately cannot control their perception of me. Just be honest with people, and don't be afraid to assurt your point of view once in a while (when appropriate, of course).
Also, don't worry about seeming like an idiot: ask dumb questions if you have to and learn, listen to critisism other people have of you and notice the bruised ego feeling (only if that's a problem for you, maybe I'm projecting).
It's about being not scared to change who you are and how you interact with people.
I really like what Dr. K taught me about forgiveness. I feel a lot more agency in the situation when it's not NPC dialogue and that it's mine to give or not give. Really strong point that has resonated with me since you first talked about it.
Very true, however life has unfortunately taught me that there is no forgiveness for narcs. None. It just enables them
You just described my relationship with my mom. Im gonna try what you recommended when I get back home. Thanks!
I’ve been really confused about a relationship that I spent a year of my life in. A lot of the things in the video really hit home for a lot of what happened.
It's great to see Dr K covering this. Dealing with a narcissist parent sucks so much. I've got used to dealing with it, but the last time was in a car that my Dad was driving and wouldn't let me out and that was really tough. His mother is the same so it's frustrating that he can't see that he acts just like her. It's usually very difficult but I agree that forgiveness is the best route
A BPD narc for me wouldn't leave my car ...when I asked them too..not only is it control it's blatant disregard of boundaries...
Something that often confuses me about narcissism is that somehow, portraying self-pride is an aspect of narcissism, but so is portraying modesty. So what isn’t narcissistic?
nothing. everyone has a tinge of narcissism in them.
I was also thinking about the same. Probably the important distinction is between true and authentic modesty and modesty that is only a mask in front of other people or even in front of one self. At some point I realized for example while I am very critical of other people, I am much more critical of myself. This is the big ego. Deep down I apparently believe that I am not allowed to make mistakes as other people are allowed to, because I am better than this (and better than them). It took me very long to recognize that because it seems at first as somethibg positive - I am basically more tolerant towards other people. Until I realized it comes from a bad place.
@@Ms19754that is hella insightful.
I feel like alot of the root patterns of narcissism can dissolve just from becoming aware of any such tendencies you might have.
Thank you so much for this, it was very painful but also exactly what I needed
Just really want to thank you Dr. k for the thoughts around forgiveness. Really helping me learn how to set boundaries with people in a way that feels respectful. As someone who has trouble putting myself first, these kind of thoughts help me so much, I can’t even explain how much of a difference these videos overall have made to my life.
The "non-traditional narcissism" Dr. K describes sounds more like codependence to me -- guilt-tripping people into taking responsibility for your emotional state.
16:40 - Dr. K: "It has nothing to do with you! This person is moving today! It has nothing to do with you!"
Non-Traditional Narcissist/Codependent: "It has nothing to do with me? That's even worse! 😭😭😭"
21:00 - Interesting explanation of forgiveness. Indeed I was always taught it meant "wiping the slate clean", but that never worked for me and now I know why. The way you explain it, forgiveness is _accepting your own life as it is now,_ including the harm that was done to you in the past, rather than continuing to be angry that your life was changed from its previously-pristine condition by someone else's actions. Continuing to be angry is only beneficial when there is _definitely_ something you can do to reverse the harm, but for major harm, there isn't. All you can do is carry on.
I completely agree with you and your comment is spot on. It perfectly describes someone from my past. This is literally spot on.
Welp glad I can say that I don’t relate fully to the description! I think it’s vital to find a sense of self worth and confidence from within and not reliant on external validation or on others to make you feel whole. Outgrowing toxic behaviors can be hard especially when there’s so much that reinforces these mentalities constantly comparing yourself or focusing on what others are doing.
This hits home really hard. Thank you Dr K for the very straightforward, direct and clear sharing!
Love the lecture type content!
Really helps!
I loved the "thinking everything revolves around you" at 16:48. I feel personally attacked. Someone didn't smile as much as they usually do? I MUST'VE DONE SOMETHING WRONG. Also, isn't this also a common symptom of anxiety and not just narcissism?
That was my thought too. There appear to be several common elements between anxiety and the 2nd type of narcissism, but the thing is, what you and I may be dealing with is a mix of both. Anxiety is focused on the future, and narcissism on the self, but they both make you think irrationally that something bad is going to happen unless you're comforted. Narcissism is fed with compliments and anxiety is fed by control. That's the difference, what they focus on, and what calms them down temporarily and makes them grow. The mechanisms they use are the same though, so they may sometimes sorta "merge" together and become hard to tell apart.
@@ivanljujic4128 wow, yeah control is what describes me. I have tons of interpersonal anxiety and I dont need your compliments, I just need control. I literally havent been able to date because im terrified of losing the ability to retreat into my cozy room all day. I have a lot of the same symptoms listed but I dont get anything fron reassurance and im fairly sure I dont seek it from anyone. But I feel a lot of whats talked about here.
Sigh, I guess ultimately I should just try and be a positive person and not let whatever I may or may not have get in the way of healthy mutually fulfilling relationships. I hope thats possible for me
Anxiety and narcissism are both rooted in insecurities and that symptom is common to both of them.
@@cory99998 that sounds like trauma. It's healthy to have personal space at some point. It means a lot you can see your own avoidance. It just means getting comfortable that the right people will add to your life around them and they won't force you to leave your safety and you get to decide when you want the safety. No one can take that away from you. If anything the fear may be to communicate to others "hey I have to go in my cave it's not personal...just gotta recharge and then I'll be back in x days". Healthy women and men know this is normal and won't lash out at you about it...hope that helps
@@hspinnovators5516 Thanks, I've just found that most people are uncomfortable with my recharge time. Its a bit excessive haha
I don’t want to become that parent. I see a lot of these narcissistic traits in myself, and I know I have manipulated . I hope we can get more info on how to curb this behavior. It seem like it will have to come from a place of love for oneself and no longer relying on external forces to...to...comfort myself?
Knowing/self-awareness is already half the battle.
Yeah i think this is pretty much it but how to get there probably takes a lot of CBT and inner child therapy work or other similar therapies. You need to train yourself on what kids actually need from parents and mourn what you didn't get as a kid and realize you should've gotten it and are worthy as a human. You need to try to love other people and at all costs resist the urge to manipulate, or apologize and backtrack if and when you do. With practice and time you'll get better at authenticity and actually being loved for your flaws as well as your strengths which in turn will help you feel more self worth and with more self worth you'll feel less tempted to manipulate others into liking you because you'll know you're inherently likable to enough people/to the people now in your life who matter
Dude your videos are great. You're very thorough and thoughtful and they've been so helpful for me recently as I've been working on turning my life around. I hope you treat yourself with the same compassion and kindness you show to us. I'm grateful for your work
Thank you so much, dealing with the non traditional archetype has drove me insane from all the guilt, I would have bad mental rumination and intrusive thoughts and crying because my brain couldn’t rationalise why I had such a strong reaction to them….
I knew there was something wrong with me . Covert narcisism ,and it actually makes sense . Its a double edged sword that gives me what i want (when people say thank you it feels like a drug idk how to explain) and they get the right to use me . I have been in a lot of toxic relationship (friends and family)thanks to this symbiotic autodestructive retroalimentation .
Last year i was able to reflect in myself , for a moment i felt guilty about my past actions( did i make them to help people or just because i wanted their validation?) . So I tryied to change my perspective and give whitout expecting nothing in return (of course with a limit so that it doesnt turn in another toxic relationship) and being happy for my acomplishments (bear in mind that i also had impostor syndrome , thats why i always felt that i didnt deserve what i got ). That putted me in a road to self-change where i am still looking for that balance in my life, hoping for the best.
Are you sure about that diagnosis, do you ever feel bad when something happened to someone else, do you have any person that you care about, even one?
I'm on the same boat too. Let's do this.
@@GM-yb5yg You can feel sad about what happens to someone and you can feel care for someone, while still being an ego farmer. I don't think those are reliable measurements.
I noticed myself being a covert narcissist a couple years ago and have been on a journey to feed my self-esteem more effectively by actually doing shit, instead of relying on emotionally manipulating people like I'm a baby or go on a pointless downspiral of punishing myself.
It's a tough journey without much guide out there. Gotta own our flaws and make real achievements that makes ourselves proud.
Covert narcissism might be a bit of a jump here. Borderline personality disorder is like covert narcissism but unlike narcissists, BPD folk are able to be made self aware of their actions. Not diagnosing, just throwing some information out there.
I'm glad to hear from a professional what I've been figuring out myself over time. I've always thought of professional victims as narcissists. They constantly make things about themselves and project their lack of self-worth on everything you say or do. It's very draining and annoying for the other party. Thank you for providing a professional explanation to this phenomenon.
It's the narcs calling card, eliciting sympathy :)
This opened my eyes. Thank you 💖
After this video, I realize that I have some of the mentioned covert narcissistic traits. I do not feel bad that my friends might not have time for me, but whenever I talk to them I tend to mention my pain and bad circumstances a lot, and when my friends talked about their bad circumstances I would respond appropriately but most of the time out of politeness. A year ago, I used to think too much about how I am perceived and feel bad about it, and keep to myself a lot, but not having many friends didn't bother much because I'm introverted. This year, I engaged in meditation at least an hour per day and noticed that I catch myself overthinking more often and was able to consciously let go of a lot of thoughts that is detrimental to me.
Omg I used to be a non traditional narcissist until my therapist told me to stop caring about what others think, especially if I don’t know them. Once I started to think rationally about other ppl who doesn’t revolve around me, I’m more understandable and try to reach out more and became a better friend bc of it.
Something really interesting I notice is that narcissist's spend a lot of time thinking about how they're perceived by others, but it's difficult to really consider the needs of others in relation to themselves.
super informative, i noticed i’ve been doing some of these things more towards the nontraditional side and haven’t had the like knowledge to understand what i was doing. i can kinda understand and work with it now
You did such a perfect role play of a conversation with my mom who is a perfect example of the nontraditional narcissist. I'd eventually figured out most of the steps you described in terms of how to interact with her (or rather, to eventually not interact with her at all since she won't respect boundaries) - forgiveness and boundaries is exactly what I worked out. The "accept things as they are" thing is something I may need to introspect on because for some reason I still think about my parents way too much and I'd like to move on from them, since they're bigots and manipulators and I doubt they're going to change.
I think they really instilled deep fear of regret in me and fear of loss with the whole "what if you're angry and then the person you're angry with dies before you can fix things" mentality and then used that to abuse me constantly as a kid so I'd always be forced to forgive them literally in the moment as they were taking things out on me.
So I want to figure out how to disentangle myself from everything they instilled in me as a child and it's been a process of working through the CPTSD triggers and trying to figure out what I've possibly not processed and figure out how to get rid of the fear of never seeing them again before they die/fear of them impacting my life through gossip from afar since they basically pollute my other relatives' understanding of me and I basically can't trust anyone who knows them because they're that manipulative and basically will get any mutual friend to "spy" on me. It's the kind of thing that can make one paranoid because they're always requesting people "tell" me things and then I start detecting that people who are "just reaching out out of concern" are parroting my parents.
(It gets very noticeable because my parents repeat the same "concerns" - actually gaslighting - over and over again which are totally irrelevant to my actual situation so when other people start saying those things it's pretty obvious they got handed a script. And I know the script very well because I was raised in the same evangelical cult they joined and it's always the same assumptions about atheists and LGBTQIA+ people and the same basic arguments with the belief that the person has never heard them before, and hearing those dog-whistle terms coming from a well-meaning third party without the shared background and with no understanding that they're being a tool for abuse by proxy and repeating the same gaslighting arguments is obvious but also the kind of thing that makes you feel like you're in groundhog day and going insane).
My grandmother was a tradicional narcissist, my mom is a non traditional narcissist, I've been working for 9 years fighting back the urge to put my self worth on the hands of other people, checking myself... I will follow this for others and for myself: Honesty instead of manipulation, empathy/kindness instead of hate and boundaries. Thanx, Dr. K
This went deep really fast. My grandma is like that. I don't have any contact with her anymore since years and it feels good. I won't see her until she dies and thats okay.
Thanks Dr K, you really share good stuff to deal with problems with relationships.
This is one of the most important and useful and informative videos I've watched! Thanks dr. K ♡
The most toxic and addictive relationship is where one has the narcissistic tendency to place people above themselves and the other devalues everyone. Each person just feeds the other’s toxic behaviours.
That led to the hardest breakup ever for me but also the biggest life lesson on all the things I’m attracted to but should avoid, I’m so grateful that I went through that and have forgiven them whilst realising I shouldn’t see them anymore ...and you’re right Dr K that is the best way to get over the abuse
Same!!😭💕
Jerry and Beth?
It's not a narcissistic tendency to place people above oneself?? What are you talking about
@@VioletEmerald Dr. K explains it in the video as the other side of narcissistic behaviour
One of the main traits of covert narcissism: “Thinks a lot of how they are perceived.”
But don’t we all do that? Or isn’t it possible that that can also be part of a childhood wound: not having received validation and therefore seeking (external) validation from everyone? In that case you are kind because you want to be liked by the other people. (Also a form of manipulation don’t get me wrong.) I recently discovered that I do this because I’ve never been given any validation from my parents so as a result seeking it elsewhere instead of within. I just don’t immediately think of myself as a covert narcissist? (But if that’s the case I need to start working on that, too)
Most people that exist, have existed and will exist are, were or will be on some level narcissistic. Most people have been in some way invalidated in their past and seek healing for that/those wounds. Most people in some way think badly of themselves. Most people want to be liked by other people. Most people manipulate others to be liked whether that's through showing off or inspiring pity. The goal isn't to get rid of narcissism and become a perfect person (probably not gonna happen bro, but go for it if you're passionate enough I guess) but to become less of a narcissist. So yes, you're probably a covert narcissist, but who isn't? It's only something to panic about if you're off the deep end and are severely hurting people in your desires for validation, but the chances are that you aren't.
@@insertname485 sounds like something a narcissist would say
@@benjaminchen8857 because I am a narcissist >:)
I think it's a matter of degree. My father, for example, is a textbook narcissist and he spends hours a day, every single day of his life, thinking about how people perceive him. And that really hurts him! He can get depressed just because someone was invited to something that he was not. Now, if you think about how people see you to a degree that is not detrimental to your life, then there is no problem.
Most things are on a spectrum. Usually the trouble only comes when you're on one extreme side of the spectrum or the other.
Thank you for sharing this information!
Holy fuck, this is an eye opener on so many levels on WHY I've had to set boundaries lately. Also a big part of why I haven't been able to move forward personally.
Dr K’s narcissistic parent and child role play was fantastic
Wow I have come to the realisation that I have been a non-traditional narcissist for a very long time. I have always had 'self esteem' issue and yeah, I used to sort of 'guilt trip' people into spending time with me. People didn't react well to it at the time, and it has taken my a while to realise why. This is why... Sometimes we do things that we kind of know are wrong but kind of do it out of a desperate need for something, or using ad hoc or post facto rationalisations. But the guilt trips I used to do were just a cry for attention out of a desperate need to heal myself or deal with my low self worth. It was a terrible way to deal with it at the time, which I kind of half knew at the time. But yeah, sometimes you still do it. Know it from this perspective will enable me to heal things a lot, to forgive myself and try to move on.
omg when you described the flip flopping of a parent!! I needed to hear this!!
This is so helpful. Thanks a lot