lgbtq+ and homophobia in the k-pop industry: a video essay
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- čas přidán 18. 05. 2024
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timestamps:
0:00 intro and disclaimer
3:06 brief history of lgbtq+ rights
6:23 lgbtq+ in the Hollywood media
8:48 brief history of lgbtq+ in Korea
15:12 kpops attraction of gay fans
16:13 skinship and fan service
18:34 queer baiting
20:42 shipping
25:15 male gaze vs female gaze
28:36 sexualization of gay men
30:38 sexualization of lesbians, bi, or any wlw
32:12 transgender representation
35:01 idols who are allegedly homophobic
38:19 idols who allegedly support LGBTQ
40:47 an idol who is openly lgbtq
42:39 conclusion
I do not own the fan-cams used in the video. All rights go to the original owners.
stage mixes:
IZ*ONE:
• 아이즈원(IZ*ONE) - FIESTA(...
• 아이즈원 (IZ*ONE) '환상동화 (S...
• 아이즈원(IZ*ONE) - 라비앙로즈(L...
• 아이즈원 (IZ*ONE) Panorama...
Oh My Girl:
• 아이즈원(IZ*ONE) - FIESTA(...
• [교차편집] 오마이걸(OH MY GIRL...
Loona:
• 이달의 소녀 (LOONA) "PTT (P...
• [교차편집] 이달의 소녀(LOONA) -...
• 이달의 소녀(LOONA) - Hi Hig...
Irene and Seulgi:
• 레드벨벳 (Red Velvet - IRE...
Rose:
• 170222 가온차트어워즈 휘파람+불장난...
Nayeon:
• [4K] 191004 강릉 뮤직뱅크 트와...
Red Velvet:
• Red Velvet (레드벨벳) - Pe...
• 레드벨벳(Red Velvet) - 배드보...
Blackpink:
• BLACKPINK (블랙핑크) - Don...
• [2nd] BLACKPINK - Love...
• Video
Girls Generation:
• 소녀시대(Girls' Generation...
• 소녀시대(SNSD) 파티(PARTY) 교...
STAY C:
• STAYC (스테이씨) 'SO BAD' ...
Ateez:
• ATEEZ 에이티즈 - THANXX St...
Seventeen:
• 세븐틴(SEVENTEEN) - HOME(...
• 세븐틴 (SEVENTEEN) '고맙다 (...
THE BOYZ:
• 더보이즈 (THE BOYZ) - The ...
Twice:
• TWICE (트와이스) "CHEER UP...
• TWICE (트와이스) - "Dance ...
• 트와이스 (TWICE) 'What is ...
• TWICE(트와이스) "CRY FOR M...
• TWICE (트와이스) "SIGNAL" ...
MAMAMOO:
• MAMAMOO (마마무) - Starry...
• 마마무(MAMAMOO)- HIP 연말무대...
G-IDLE:
• (여자)아이들((G)I-DLE) - LI...
• (여자)아이들 (G)I-DLE - Oh ...
ITZY:
• ITZY - Not Shy 교차편집(st...
• ITZY(있지) - 마.피.아. in t...
GFRIEND:
• 여자친구(GFRIEND) - MAGO 교...
• 여자친구 (GFRIEND) Apple (...
TXT:
• TXT - Angel Or Devil (...
EXO:
• EXO-K (엑소) - 중독 (Overd...
Ponzona:
• 퍼플키스 (PURPLE KISS) Pon...
Rocket Punch:
• 로켓펀치(Rocket Punch) 'Ri...
aespa:
• 에스파 (aespa) Next Level...
Joy:
• 조이(JOY) - 안녕(Hello) 교차...
IU:
• IU(아이유)_LILAC(라일락) (교차...
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If you are an original creator of one of the fan-cams, and you have a problem with my usage of it, please contact me first before copyrighting the video.
I will happily take out your fan-cam if you have a problem with it. I have had an entire video of mine stolen before, so I promise I have no negative intentions of stealing another's work. Thanks so much!
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tags:
lgbtq+, Kpop, industry, music, gay rights, Korea, history, video essay
hi friends I just wanna clear something up real quick! My channel became eligible for monetization when I hit 1,000 subscribers. I have not yet applied for it but I will soon so I can collect my five pennies from youtube. However, this video I did not want to monetize as it felt hypocritical when I was calling out the industry for using lgbtq+ people for profit just to turn around and monetize my own video on the topic. I wanted to make that clear because some of you may receive ads on this video, but those were not placed there by me. This video got blocked and copyright claimed to hell and back as I assumed it would. I just wanted to make it known that if it was up to me I would not run ads on this as I just wanted to educate and share information with people, but there may be ads for some of you anyways because of YG. Either way I hope you enjoyed the video and much love to you all! 💜
Thank you for all your amazing content and it really deserves to be monetized finally.
I don't know if you ever saw this MV and if it was made with the support towards the lgbtq+ community but it has to do with the topic of this video kind of, K.wills "Please don't... "
Thanks for the video.
I wasn't sure whether I should watch the video because a lot of the past videos I watched were shallow regarding this topic, but I knew, after reading this comment, I know this video was made by a person with a good heart. I'll watch it, and I hope you soon make other viral videos to get some cash lol
You're a true ally Kate
Why are you whispering?
I remember a fan came out to yeonjun as transgender during a video call and they got emotional and yeonjun comforted them.
Dude I remember that and it was so lovely ☺️.
that video makes me cry 😭
Aaaaaaww!
*cries happy tears as a LGBTQ+ moa*
yeonjun also said trans rights and happy pride month :)
I feel like overall sexualization of lesbians/women is more common, but when it comes to kpop the sexualization of gay relationships and men goes 📈📈📈
yeah I'd definitely say the sexualization of lesbians ans wlw is a lot more common however gay and mlm relationships are becoming more sexualized because of kpop and the bl industry. it really sucks
I think as international fans we see a lot more mlm fetishization from young girls especially but there’s definitely still a serious problem in the kpop industry w wlw relationships being fetishized by male fans. What we as international fans see as pandering to sapphics or queer ppl in general is also just pandering to men who fetishize lesbians/sapphic relationships (a very blatant example would b when girl groups have to play the pepero game or smth like that)
pls dont put the sexualisation of gay men to strickly kpop its EVERYWHERE they are just as sexualised as gay women
@@namjoonie936 i'm not putting it strictly to kpop, i'm just saying that in kpop gay men are sexualized even more than regular
@@snls5855 hmmm
Something I've always thought: assuming someone's straight still counts as assuming someone's sexuality.
yup!!
XD that's stupid
it's like saying assuming something about someone is still assuming something about someone. obviously, it still counts since it's the same thing!
@@andwae7883 I think what they mean is it's stupid that people are assuming people/kpop idols are straight ig?
@@andwae7883 people get upset at shippers (of same groups) or people who will say things like "oh i think that idol is lgbtq+" and in response, will be like "stop assuming every idol is gay" or "don't assume their sexuality". by saying that, you are basically saying that they are straight, which is still assuming their sexuality. i hope that made sense :D
an idol Jiae was recently kicked from her company for being bisexual and in a relationship with a woman. She is releasing her first solo album soon with no marketing or support from a company so i highly recommend you all to go help support her. :)
Is it on yt?
Is this JIAE TV?
She makes amazing music I love her
omg listening because of you, and love is love sounds so cool1
I knew Jonghyun was a supporter but I didn’t know the details of it. Him saying “I can’t compare how I feel with how you feel” to the trans fan was… absolutely incredible. Many fans said he was a genuine person but many say that about their fave idols. But this convinced me that he was a genuinely amazing person. I’m crying. Rest in peace Jonghyun. Your existence was an insanely beautiful influence on so many people all around the world. We have and always will love you.
He is the most genuine idol I've ever seen..RIP Jonghyun
He continues to be a huge inspiration to everyone who's lives he touched. I didn't realize just how supportive he was until my research for this and I cried too. Truly an angel
I just knew about this and this made me cry, it would be so great to have him today we cherish him so much i hope he’s happy forever and always up there 🥺
OMG I knew atleast 1 Insomnia will be here haha👍🏼
@@veen-a2092 eyyyy 😎
Holland is truly an angel, please check out all his songs. He had been struggling a lot without a label, and the pandemic is also taking a toll on him, and he deserves the world.
I definitely plan on listening to more of him now!
I literally love him so much 😓
You should also listen/try :
-Marshll,
-jiae (ex-wasseup) ,
-Kwong Do woon (trot singer)
-Aquinas (rapper).
-Som Hae in (ex the idol school contestant)
-Harisu , maman ,Hanbit’s mercury (group) and lady (group) they are transgender.
- Hansol’s topdogg
-Seungho and B.nish they were in the same group( D.I.P )while dating and another member(the leader) was bisexual if I remember correctly
They are so talented 🌸✨
There’s more but i don’t remember clearly cause they are more underground type
Yes please! Holland is an angel 🥺
Nope
Stray kids have went to a pride Month before, Felix (a member of skz) once clutched his shirt and smiled brightly when he saw a sign that said "Bisexuals love felix!", Chan (a member) was really happy to hear that a stay met her gf through skz! (they are wlw btw). they've shown a lot of support and it makes me extremely happy ^__^. this video is really well made ps!
i truly love how felix and the other members are always doing little things to show support, like this year on the first day of pride month I.N wore a lgbtq+ cap, lee know wearing safety pins, chans speech about not mattering who you are or choose to be you will always be welcome, or them wearing lgbtq merch and i could keep going and going
stray kids are such a huge comfort to me. i'm a (maybe non binary) lesbian and my surroundings aren't very supportive. it could be worse but i live in texas and my mom is homophobic. i have no idea how she would react if she found out. it really sucks but i know if skz were to know they'd be proud of me, and honestly it makes me cry every time i think about it. i'm so grateful that they show outward support to queer people, and i love them for it (and more).
@@juliana8374 both stray kids and me are very proud of you for figuring out who you really are! it takes a lot of courage to do so. I'm so sorry you're stuck in such a position, but please stay safe 💗!! remember that you're valid no matter what!
I just have that one picture where they hold the pride flag in a concert plastered in my mind 24/7 it's my favourite picture TT
@@gera7291 and Lee know being in the top 10 of that pride thingy xD
governments love calling any gay intimacy "r@p3" and SA, but when it comes to cis women trying to get justice for their r word or SA, the justice system turns the other way.
✨it has *never* been about protecting people✨
yeri from red velvet is actually good friends with holland. she has shown a lot of support for him through social media despite getting backlash, as well as people assuming they’re dating lol. but they keep posting pictures of each other on social media when they’re hanging out and i love that so much
"Assuming they're dating"
Are they slow or... 💀🌈
Anyways, yeah, I like girls.
- Girls Generation ?
holland : openly gay man
some dumb ppl : i ThInK tHaT hE's DaTiNg YeRi
@@vivii__ Proof that Yeri is a man lol🤣
“He is a gay man with a straight girlfriend and _that’s_ equality!”
The "band members" hired for Mamamoo's MV 'Hip' (the scenes where Solar is in the black/white outfit) were actual working South Korean drag queens. We love our queens for putting the money where their mouths are and supporting the community.
FUCK YEA AND THATS WHY I STAN MAMAMOO AND AM A PROUD MOOMOO 😌😌
don’t forget that Wheein’s GOODBYE MV is literally about queer relationship
I love what they are doing now but it’s kind of hard for me to let go of the blackface scandal
they're "queens" but had a whole blackface scandal......yikes.
@@dess234 You can appreciate someone’s work and respect to the LGBT community. Their mistake was awful but it doesn’t erase their entire career.
As a queer person Twice is my favorite group. There's a video of Sana meeting a fan in which that fan told her that she was moving to Korea to live with her girlfriend. Sana was so happy for her, and treated the situation the same as she would with a straight couple. And four of the members performed Born This Way. Their company didn't want them to, but they fought for it. The other members were in groups doing covers of other songs as well. The names of the artists for the four songs they covered spelled out LGBT.
What are the covers that spell lgbt?
also!! namjoon (rm) from bts said “we don’t have a boyfriend or girlfriend” when he was talking about the members during an interview. in his UN speech, he said, “no matter your gender identity, speak yourself.” as a bisexual army, his open support means so much to me :’)
namjoon for president
i love joon for saying that, but that’s basic rights$?;)$
@@ongakira true but at the same time it’s difficult for anyone in the spotlight to speak out abt lgbt issues, and it’s especially harder since bts is always under public scrutiny and they’re from a very conservative country?? like i appreciate the effort from joon??
the bar is so low…for society as a whole
@@raverie1225 yes but still😭
@@ongakira idk 😭
I think homophobes are so hilarious. Imagine being mad at people for loving each other
Fr
Ikr.
Homophobes: We love everyone
LGBTQ+: *exist*
Homophobes: Begone.
also when (some) christians pull the “we don’t support LGBTQ+ but we respect it” card. like, do you not support basic human rights?
@@sirhcjx exactly😭 it’s funny when they say stuff like “i’m not homophobic i just don’t support it” yeah that’s literally homophobia? you don’t have to be violent or full of hatred against queer people to be homophobic
@@haterscankindlygochoke9185 I'm not sure if you'll see this, but I have a genuine question. So, isn't homophobia prejudice and hate? Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean you automatically have hate towards them. For example, just because someone doesn't agree/support Muslim or Christian ways doesn't mean they hate or are prejudiced against Muslims and Christian. There are always going to be people with different view and opinions in the world, and I feel like if we just love and have basic respect for others(which is ofcourse easier said than done), things will be a lot better. I'm a Christian and I am digusted with people who try to use Christianity as a weapon for hate, especially since we are thought to love. I know some christain have done some terrible things, and i just feel horrible for it and I'm very sorry. I'll make sure to educate myself and those around me to know better.
Finally, someone mentioned it. The obsession of shipping men/women in a sexual way, even though they’re straight, is very uncomfortable. It can cause changes to the friendship of the members. Imagine you and your bestie were being fetishized by these people even though you’re just friends.
yep, let not forget to mention where if a closet lgbtq idol interacted with the opposite gender, the media immediately paints them off as "dating", or " omg he/she is inlove with her/him i Shipp *ship name*🥰🥰😍😍" its just pushes them further back in the closet
Me and my best friends were all shipped in 18+ fanfics back when we were 12. (We’re guys btw) Me and half of those guys drifted apart after that happened because how explicit it was and we couldn’t even look each other in the eyes. Never want that to happen again. This has been years ago, 2017, but even when I see them, we still cant look each other in the eyes today
@@wendyszimzalabimoutfit3328 that's horrible :( im sorry you had to go through that
that's why i think straight shipping or queer shipping is basically the same. both can bring harm especially if shippers go too extreme and we dont even know their sexual orientation or gender identity. shipping is like presuming the idols' sexuality and allows people to fantasize abt someone else's relationship as a romantic one when it's just platonic which i find kinda weird :/
@@cinnamonblunt yeah it made things really awkward between eric nam and solar i think, but people do it for their own self gratification and dont bother to consider how their actions impact others
Dreamcatcher has been so incredibly loud on the topic of LGBT, and I'm so thankful for them. Yoohyeon has worn a pride hoodie, a trans pin, and corrected an interviewer when she said "men" (yoohyeon was asked what kind of personality shes attracted to and she said hardworking people), and there was a recent interview where Yooh and Dami stated their support. Gahyeon has also reassured a trans fan. Plus, all of their songs are gender neutral :) They're all such sweet people, they deserve all the love. (This isn't all their support btw, it would just be too long to type out)
Whaat really? I didn't know they were so supportive!! I'll have to look them up again
OH MY GOD! You're right, they ARE all gender neutral. They're all directed at the listener, not talking about a third person. And the covers? They kept the lyrics the same.
@@erynbrooks963 OMG YES, and the only time they ever changed the pronouns was to make it GAYER
I feel like it's important to shout-out LIONESSES, the LGBTQ boyband that recently debuted. If you haven't heard of them, please check them out, their music is great, and talks about experiences living as a Queer person in Korea. They want to be positive role models for LGBTQ+ kids growing up in a society that still isn't accepting of them.
I didnt know about this thank you for telling me
Thank you for spreading the info !!!
THANK YOUU
omg thata awesome!
Hell no
About the shipping part, it's good to look at what Lauren Jauregui said about it. She is a pansexual woman and she said that people seriously shipping her with former member of fifth harmony makes her very uncomfortable to the point where she felt as if she's a predator and that she can't get close to any other women or else people would speculate or those women would feel uncomfortable. The interview was heartbreaking yet I'm grateful that she said it because it's too much.
And I'm glad you mentioned MAMAMOO as supporters of LGBTQ+ because truly their supports are amazing. Moonbyul even posted support to fans during coming out day, three years in a row on fancafe.
Edited: I said Lauren was bisexual, she's actually pansexual! My bad.
I’m glad other people are bringing this up, I remember her statement, but couldn’t remember the group name
I thought we were at a point where we all agreed that real-shipping is wrong. Especially if you shove that into the persons faces like some people do nowadays. But yeah... I guess that agreement went over board again at some point or didn't reach all fandoms :(
tbh when I was a teen, I shipped real people from bands as well (Dir en Grey as example). But I noticed that some people of the fandom began to transfer the fictional versions of those band members into reality. Like there were people hating a band member because he always had the asshole role in some fanfictions.... also one band member said he feels uncomfortable getting shipped. After that I questioned the whole thing and stayed in the fictional area of shipping only fictional characters.
@@HangryKitsune One would have thought, especially with so many recent discussions regarding the mistreatment of celebrities by the media but I guess fans don’t recognize their part in that. So every generation we repeat the cycle.
I’ve met people who dumped a partner after a dream they had, but attacking an artist based on the image of how they were portrayed in fanfiction is one of the sickest things I’ve ever heard of, that is actually delusional
I remember her saying it made her scared to come out. I think people need remember that no matter how famous someone is, they are human.
@@HangryKitsune ugh I hate when ppl bring fanfic into real life sm. people seriously are so delusional 😭✋
two of my favourite bands, being The Used and My Chemical Romance, were super close back in the early to mid 2000s and it was even speculated that the lead singers of both bands were in a relationship (which has been basically confirmed by both of them, that’s not the part that irritates me). what makes me pissed off, is when people ship the lead singer (Gerard Way) and rhythm guitarist (Frank Iero) of My Chem together, making Bert McCracken- the lead singer for The Used- the “villain” in fanfic.
people have literally accused Bert McCracken of getting Gerard Way into drugs, despite Gerard having talked about using them before he had met Bert. and vice versa. the way he’s is portrayed in fanfic makes me sick- especially knowing what he’s gone through. it sucks that people only go off of fanfic (not good fanfic, might I add) to determine someone’s personality is bs lmao.
sorry for the long rant with my personal story, but I think it’s fitting to your comment 😩
Sakura from iz*one once said this
“There isn’t a right timing or encounter yet, but there’s a possibility for me to fall in love with a woman too. I think it’s a possibility with everyone. Love is but a pitfall. You won’t know when or who you’ll fall for. If your heart shouts that you love someone, no matter what everyone else says, that’s love in my opinion.”
And i though that was really touching
I hope you’re not bothered by my question, it’s genuine and not meant to instigate anything at all…I’m just confused and I’d rather not be lol…so if you’re genderfluid then wouldn’t you be queer or pansexual since lesbian refers to a woman being attracted to other women? I hope this doesn’t bother you 🤗🤗😊😊
@@krisuler7734 i mean, they could just be referring to being a sapphic, but used "lesbian" because it's more of a "understandable" term
@@krisuler7734 the white stripe in the 5-striped lesbian flag stands for nb/trans lesbians ive seen and genderfluid is in the trans umbrella. lesbian also stands for nblw too, and even if the commenter felt like a man sometimes if they were to get asked what their gender was they would respond genderfluid and not man,etc. making genderfluid lesbians valid and possible.
@@krisuler7734 The definition of lesbian is non-men loving non-men so as long as you don’t identify as a man you can be lesbian, so this includes women and any gender identity under the non-binary umbrella ^^
@@krisuler7734 Hi!! Just wanted to let you know that the term lesbian actually means someone who isn’t a man who is attracted to people who aren’t men :) so a lesbian could be a woman, nb person etc. just not a man
Imagine hearing a guy saying 'she just hasnt had the right guy in bed yet' ugh the AUDACITY for them to imply that they are the right kind of man ugh honestly I will throw fists with him
As a lesbian I usually say it back to them, “oh, maybe you haven’t found the right guy either!” 😂
Ewwwww🤮
@@BELIEVER78989 yep
Imagine someone snapped back and saying those lines back to him💀
I'm a guy, and someone said that to me online once, and I was like; "EXCUSE ME!? I'M A MINOR!?!?"
Yoongi from BTS actually said in a japanese interview for a magazine that he doesn't care about the gender of his love interest, but the article was pushed down and kind of forgotten by homophobic fans who claimed he must have made a mistake since he doesn't speak japanese as his mother language and that he didn't actually know what he was saying. Even though japanese fans have said over and over that there was nothing to misunderstand and that he was definitely proficient enough to know what they were asking, or that the interview was maybe even done in korean but then translated. It's so sad how people deny it every time someone brings it up saying he would have spoken up about it again if it was true, but it was at the beginning of their career when only a few people followed them, and now they are the face of Korea, so obviously it's more dangerous for him to mention it now.
@Mireille Mandondo it was an interview for Oricon style somewhere in 2014. I don't have anything specific otherwise to point you at because I've just seen it discussed several times betweent fans basically every time pride month comes around. so i must say it's not a very good source as i don't speak japanese but it's what I've seen:)
i would love to see a “racism in kpop” cuz thats a 24 hour discussion
(i just missed out on this whole f ing discussion,i have not been so disappointed in myself for a while.)
I've done a cultural appropriation in k-pop video and touched on some of that stuff, but racism is a completely different discussion that I would also love to see.
Mocking and teasing other races and appropriating culture is all fun and games for them until someone else does it to them.
That would not be a 24 hour discussion because much of the “racism” was not racism at all, it was CA and ignorance that was apologized for. To deem something as racist, you have to consider intent and with that in mind, I can only think of a handful of racist actions that became necessary lessons for those idols to learn from. Recent example is Bang Chang dancing to Childish Gambino and people calling it racism because he copied a particular pose he saw in the video and wasn’t aware of its historical context. That is not what racism is. He had no ill will, no hatred toward any group of people…’racist’ and ‘racism’ are being overused and misused left and right and it’s very dangerous because actual racism and bigotry exist and it’s vile and needs to cease but how can it if it’s constantly being drowned by other instances that SJWs deem as racist that are not. (Also…most folks who were chastising Bang Chang weren’t even aware of the historical context themselves. The hypocrisy of it all 😩). CA is a problem within kpop, yes but the industry as a whole is learning and progress is being made. I’m sorry if I came across as bashing your comment, I’m not 🤗🤗 I just get a bit frustrated when that word is used to describe things that aren’t actually racist 😊I hope this can offer a different perspective on the topic.
@@krisuler7734 No, not at all. In kculture and fanbases, racism is widespread. I think a video on this would be needed.
@@narivenus-21 hope you are apart of one of the groups that were harmes by the actions of most kpop groups
Isn’t the statistic that like 1 in 5 people identify as a part of the LGBTQ+ spectrum? Given how many groups have at least five members, there’s a decent chance that every group has at least one LGBTQ+ member. I’m not saying that we should be playing a game of “Figure out who it is and out them” because that would be a horrible thing to do. But we should definitely be aware of the possibility.
In the words of a wise philosopher: “The possibility of all of these possibilities being possible is just another possibility that can possibly happen." -Mark Lee
Mork Lee supremacy
honestly probably more considering how lgbt+ people tend to dominate creative/artistic spaces and industries in general
What are we supposed to do with this information?? Not like any of them will come out. Of course not all of them would be straight.
Well not necessarily 'what should we do?' bit 'what can we do?' this is south Korea not New York.
"Oh Canada"
When ZICO said the f slur in his song, I immediately unstanned. I didn't care if he apologized or not because how angry it made me. His fans told me I was being a sensitive snowflake and I felt so hurt by it. I still don't stan him, but I wanted to tell this story.
I can understand this, honestly. Block B is one of my ult groups, and when I heard Zico use the f slur in one of his songs, I felt so hurt. I myself am lgbtq+ (trans ftm, polyromantic, asexual), and I know that while it might have just been ignorance or misinformation on his part (though it could just as likely be entirely on purpose), that does not mean that we should just blindly forgive him for his actions. Right now I'm just hoping that the rest of block b's members are supportive.
Periodt
I understand if this sounds stupid but what is the f-slur?
@@rockhistoria2537 You should just look it up tbh. I don't feel comfortable saying it, and I also have no right to say it since I'm not gay
@@doyouwannab7469 ah ok! I understand you, I am going to look it and give my insight into it
As someone who has been “shipped” with a male friend in high school and college, it’s VERY uncomfortable and can get really awkward if one of you has an SO.
People spread rumours and openly made comments/jokes about how cute we were and how we must have been secretly dating. Even if we tried to clear it up and say that we were just friends, I still got scrutinized every time people saw me alone with him and kept making comments so it always made things awkward between us. When he started dating another girl, we had to stop hanging out because people thought he was cheating and thought it was their responsibility to tell his girlfriend behind his back.
I cannot imagine how horrified I’d be if people started drawing or writing about us dating or having sex, or posting edited pictures of us being intimate on the internet.
Shippers say it’s not the same because idols are famous and it doesn’t harm anyone, but they’re still human beings who have internet connection and feelings? If you think two people would be cute together then fine, but fantasizing about it publicly, treating them like fictional characters and trying to prove it as real is a step too far imo. Like just admit that you prioritize your fantasies over the idols’ thoughts and feelings.
accurate
I had a guy BFF in college. We started at one school together and both transferred, separately, to the same school. At our 1st school, people actually thought I was a lesbian and that was easier than at our 2nd school where people assumed we were one of those secret-but-not-so-secret couples. It was sooooo awkward so I might secretly ship people in my head but never out loud.
That must have taken a toll on you as well are you good?
so recently a.c.e has done an ost to a bl drama and this is what jun said
“Just like how all of our fans, CHOICE, are different in their own special ways,” Jun tells Teen Vogue, “we know that there [are] a range of different ways to love among all kinds of people in this world which we acknowledge and respect. It was really exciting for A.C.E. to be able to contribute ‘SPARK’ as the first song to the Light On Me original television soundtrack, as the listener can hear us detail the unique and intense moment when a new romance is taking over someone's body. We hope that listeners enjoy ‘SPARK’ and also hope BL dramas like Light On Me and others in the future can help break down prejudices and create a more equal world for all.”
there have also been lots of other times a.c.e have supported lgbtq+ but i sent this because it happened a few days ago
omg i don’t even stan but that’s incredible 🥺
I stan ACE!! They are my ults for a reason :))
ACE is SOO underrrated...I believe that great and good people deserve the absolute best. And ACE has wonderful and humble people. Love and admire them a lot.
I freaking love A.C.E they deserve the world honestly
They are soooo amazing! And the song is really good!
I really hate it when kpop fans interpret the "don't assume idols' sexualities" as "don't assume they are gay". No, it's also not assuming they are straight. A big example are TaeYeon and Irene who have both mentioned they were attracted to a woman in a very natural, innocent and casual way. Not as a joke. And YooHeon kept answering with neutral pronouns when asked about her ideal type. The interviewer said "yeah, that's YooHeon's ideal man" (or something along those lines) and she went out her way to say "ideal person".
I find it very homophobic to assume that women can't love women for real. That it's always platonic.
I also wanted to say that, besides the idols mentioned on the video, SNSD, Red Velvet, F(x), SHINee, basically all members of TWICE, Yeeun from Wonder Girls, Jamie (ex 15&), Dreamcatcher, BM from KARD (and probably all members of KARD), most of BTOB, HeeChul, Alexa, Day6, The Rose, Ladies' Code, Epik High, Somi, most of NCT, SEVENTEEN and Kevin from TBZ have admitted or at least hinted to supporting the LGBT+ community.
We love safe-space-creating idols. 💞
Yes, this! It’s not a black and white thing, the only default is “unknown” until they describe themselves as otherwise.
I don’t assume any idols are any sort of way. The only exception is BM from KARD since he’s talked about his past dating/sex life. I think it’s fair to think of BM as straight, but even so, give a man the space to explore 😉
@G-Taehyung No not every idol. Those that were mentioned are small portion compared to the 100's of idols that debut yearly and the already existing or ex idols.
Yes let's consider they're unlabeled Right Now we don't know they're straight to not💕
im sorry i understand the message but the way all of twice is in your comment made me laugh, its accurate though
Agree we shouldn’t assume in general about something personal and complicated like someone’s identity and/or be pushing something on members like a ship, I especially have a gripe with those that actually do assume all their idols are straight though, because believe me when I say it is *tiring* when there are also plenty of people who have harmful assumptions and reply to shippers(?) with something along the lines of:
“They’re straight and gonna marry a (member of a different sex)”
“Keep your fetishes out of this” (assuming it’s purely from a fetishization perspective or people can’t naturally be within the GRSM)
“(Some bs about being delusional when someone is open-minded about possibilities of anyone being not-cis/straight)”
The list goes on and I’m already getting tired writing this
In the end, people should be allowed to be who they are (labeled or not) without having to hide or bear the weight of pressure/expectations from others- shit’s complicated, no one but the individual can say for sure what they are
28:19 I just want to add (may be out of context) but living in Asia as a Mexican girl has opened my eyes to a lot of things in the West and here. I have had COUNTLESS times where friends would tell me that their boyfriends tell them OUTRIGHT that they need to lose weight…and the girl is ok with it (these were hetero couple). The guys would phrase it ‘as worry about their health’ but we all know they just want their gfs to look like models; obv I am like wtf but my friends say ‘but he is my bf! I should lise weight for love’ or ‘he is worried for my health.
No he isn’t, he wants you to be at his standards of female beauty (and would probably throw a fit if you had standards too) cuz he thinks he is a king. One time I voiced my thoughts (specially cuz I’ve dealt with anorexia, this kind of stuff puts me on edge) and the girl was like ‘*shrug* he is my bf’….like that justifies him judging ur physique.
To men like this: if you wanna date a pretty girl like you imagine them to be DATE A SEX DOLL! You are dating a woman with A PERSONALITY, OPINIONS AND THOUGHTS…she is a human. If you just want her to look pretty and shut up, save her having to deal with your lame ass and just date your sex doll :/
Or if they aren't attracted to anymore, because for non asexuals sex matters and sexual attraction is both mental and physical, they can just break up instead of pushing the other person to change how they look. It's fine to want to date people you are attracted to. It's not fine to tell the person you're dating to change for you. They can simply break up if they don't feel attracted to that person anymore. I think the whole point was about accepting people's attractions as long as they don't force anything onto you.
In many Asian countries, they legit think that they are giving you genuine advice when they tell you to lose weight/otherwise change an "undesirable" aspect of yourself. This is especially true of Confucianist countries like South Korea, as self-improvement is a core aspect of that belief system.
Also, the women there don't mind it because they do the same to the men. Unlike in western countries where the burden to look pretty is just on the women, in South both genders are expected to present themselves well.
No, I am not trying to present my judgement of their beliefs, nor trying to refute your comment. All I am trying to do is give context. When looking at another groups practices, it is important to recognise your biases and try to be as objective about it as possible.
@@raerohan4241 hey! I commented this a year ago in the heat of the moment and I also was going through a rough patch. I also didn’t know about Confucianism and overall I was younger. I have now grown and hold more empathy, I completely agree with you and understand that it usually doesn’t come with malice.
The boy group A.C.E has been very open with their support to the lgbtq+ community. Byeongkwan has mentioned being inspired by nonbinary people, encourage male fanboys and is a regular advocate in the breaking of gender norms (as is the rest of the group but you see him most often breaking them). Junhee, the leader of the group played a lead role in a Korean bl (Tinted with you). When interviewed he has spoken about how when taking the role he hoped to ‘help breakdown prejudice and create a more equal world’, along with the fact that he was open minded too and respected lgbtq+ people, also clearing up for the people questioning his sexuality due to taking the role that he wasn’t gay. Jun also acknowledged their large queer fan base and all the support and thanks he revived from them when playing the role and was proud to be able to help be a voice for them. He also described kissing his costar as “so amazing” which I personally find quite funny (he’s praised fanart of the kiss serene he’s been shown). The group has released a song (spark) for the ost of a bl drama(light on me) as well. All of the members have worn pins and held pride flags with fans. While it’s not necessarily related to lgbtq+, they’re educated about feminism (their agency took the initiative to teach them about it) and have gone out of their way to show their support for women in their lives.
@@enchantedgoldrush bigot
Taehyun of txt was asked to say TRANS RIGHTS. He said it but he didn't know the meaning and asked the fan. When told, he said "that's wonderful" and i just love him so muchh.
i love that he asked what it meant. he could've just repeated it without understanding but wanted to be intentional with what he said which is really respectful and responsible of him.
@@shrutis no yeonjun said it too but Taehyun was the one who asked.
@@orangeworm ikr i find that very admirable of him
So, disclaimer, I am a huge "shipper" when it comes to fictional characters. Not only gay relationships or straight relationships, I just ship characters if I think they would have an interesting dynamic. I'm a closeted bi myself, and this really helps me have an outlet and a way to express myself when I can't in real life.
That being said.
I think people really need to draw a line when it comes to reality versus fiction. Shipping celebrities has REAL consequences for REAL people and is just not the same as shipping fictional characters. Some celebrities might be fine with it, but no one can know that unless they state it themselves, so be respectful.
Same man. The most I've read of fanfics involving real life people is like a celebrity I love meeting another celebrity I like and having a wholesome interaction. Nothing sexual.
this!!! i also feel really uncomfortable about irl ships and some of them should be kept to yourself…
Yes to this. I also have a problem with rps whenever I see it cross over the line of fiction, where ppl insist so-and-so are together and attack others, or even the ppl involved (like with the Hailey/Justin/Selena situation) if someone opposes those views.
Plus, it's also their private lives, and smt we, as fans, should not have any say about. As a fan, I'd rather my favs have the agency to be able choose to reveal or not reveal whether they're in a relationship and who with rather than making up and going with speculations and delving into their personal lives, especially when it has nothing to do with their job as a celebrity.
the fact that bts has one of the largest sections on ao3 and wattpad is pretty sickening to me tbh. i don't understand how their fans can treat them like characters and put them in situations as far as fanfic tropes go. i would be so, so uncomfortable and scared.
Absolutely 100%. These idols are real people, let’s not forget.
not the giant ass smile on my face when you actually recognized asexuals!!! we love to see it!!!
YESSSS SAME
As I'm new to kpop and I'm stanning monsta x and wonho, I'll list some things they've said that acknowledge lgbtqai+ fans
1. Joohoney said "whoever you are, whoever you love, I love you and thank you for supporting us"
2. During a vlive with jooheon and wonho they read a question of a fan asking for advice on coming out. They said that the fan needs to feel comfortable sharing their sexuality and not feel pressured
3. Wonho stated he doesn't mind the gender of their partener is they can cook good ramen.
4. They have seen holding the rainbow flag(ik this is the bare minimum but) minhyuk was clearly upset when a security guard didn't gave it to him
5. They released the "all in" mv on May 17th, knows as International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia. The mv had "subtle" nods to a homosexual relations being threatened by homophobia (ofc they haven't voice this but we can see from the mv)
6. They said that clothes have no gender (really nice to hear)
Ofc they have done and said more then I mentioned in this list, I found this video to be informative about their views on lgbtq+ matters czcams.com/video/vcZMa-Bp1FU/video.html
As a lesbian living in a very religious and close minded country, I can say that monsta x is my safe space and I'm happy to see that they're socially conscious. Ofc nobody is without flaws and we learn as we grow and I'm hoping to all the queer people an understanding and loving environment and to be surrounded by peace and love💗❤️
i don't know anything about them but the third one made me giggle-
I also want to mention a cold hard truth which is that only ‘good looking’ + feminine women don’t get discriminated as much when it comes to WLW ships (i’m mostly referring to women as there seems to be a notion that WLW aren’t hated as much). However, if a masculine + butch looking women were to be spotted with another woman, korean men or some men in general would not be as excited. I’m sorry if my explanation was not clear but you get the gist
@@krisuler7734 ,, u rlly wrote whole essay mansplaining what fetishizing lesbians is,,, also while yes straight women queerbaiting for male enjoyment is obviously an issue, let’s not act like they’re the root of the problem boo
@@krisuler7734 Read again 🙄 they were talking about straight men only accepting WLW when they're attracted to them, but when they perceive them as "masculine" or less attractive they're more likely to discriminate against them.
No one was offended at straight men that aren't attracted masculine presenting lesbian women 🙄
@@krisuler7734 You’re probably those type of people that try to make Korea look & seem like lalaland whenever someone tries to point out something messed up 😭
@@krisuler7734 I understand having a preference for physical features, men/women can either like masculine or feminine women-Thats fine. But the issue here is that most of the time, masculine-looking women portrayed in a WLW relationship get discriminated way more than an “attractive” feminine woman. Theres no reason for a man to leave nasty comments about masculine looking women not being attractive enough to be apart of a WLW relationship.
This op comment reminded me of when I used to identify as bisexual (before learning more sexuality terms and figuring out what I am today, since majority of the time lgbtq+ people have to learn different sexualities by themselves or from others)
I was at the time identifying as a bisexual female and I vividly remember guys fetishizing me because of it. I can list a few guys to this day from then that used to actively seek out bisexual women for "other" activities including another woman. But I remember 3 guys 2 were my bestfriends from elementary school and 1 who i dated for a while. All 3 subtly hinted at being bisexual and everyone was rude about it to them but they accepted me solely because guys find wlw action w/ feminine women "attractive". I was one of the only person who accepted them and supported then whole heartedly. Now 1 of the boys is openly bisexual with a male preference and we are still decently close. 1 moved away to another school in Atlanta but i do believe he is coming to terms with his sexuality. and the last one is still in denial and has let homophobia push him back into the closet, as for this one I dont want to say he isnt bi because there were some times when he seemed genuine but he also recieved a lot of attention from females for allowing them to paint his nails and stuff so he ultimately got closer to them and ended up dating a few. But I do think part of him really is attracted to the same gender.🤷🏾
I also noticed masc les were always referred to derogatorily and treated differently than someone like myself at the time (bisexual feminine female). Its genuinely upsetting how people will pick and choose who to accept based on their own personal gain.
An former idol has said that there are a lot of lgbtq kpop idols in the industry, some of them come out to their members. Some will receive acceptance while others don't, but they hide it very well.
Let's hope that they're safety :(
Can you tell me the name of fhe former idol? 😩
@@baldjungkook1947 bruh JK in ur dp😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
GOT7's mark's sister is a lesbian and shes actually married, mark openly supports her and they are very close, the other members also seem to openly support her!!
Incredibly late but I would like to provide an actual example of the consequences of shipping real people. Xiao Zhan and Wang YiBo (two male chinese actors) starred in an adaptation/censored version of a bl story. After it got released, the shipping got so out of hand that their relationship was severely affected and they rarely interact anymore. It's also the rumored reason why AO3 (fanfic website) was banned in China.
There something I feel that is not discussed enough : gay people exist in the kpop industry. You’re probably the only video I saw who is kind of acknowledging them. A female idol just needs to breath into a man’s direction and everyone is perfectly fine to think they’re dating, but you just bring up the POSSIBILITY for an idol to be MAYBE something else than straight you’re called delusional. It’s like we, lgbt people, aren’t real, like we’re a collective hallucination. Or they think gayness can’t touch their favs cause “ew, gay people”. It’s the same thing with idols having sex, there is this very twisted idea of purity in the kpop fandoms like, some of them truly believe grown ass men and women are still virgins, cute little babies and all. It’s very disturbing to me.
You remember when Taehyung said smth about wanting to collab with Holland, and a fan tweeted, "ew no Tae, he's gay don't do that" and an army (whoever they were, i love them lol) replied, "Taehyung's best friends with Jimin, I really don't think he minds."
@@haterscankindlygochoke9185 dude wow,where did tae say that?
@@rini9325 I don't know exactly, wait lemme see if I can find smth abt it
@@rini9325 I couldn't find any images about it, I had seen the post in pinterest when someone took a screenshot and posted it but I can't find it now.
@@haterscankindlygochoke9185 So then this is just internet lore at this point. I really wish we wouldn’t do this…
I want to think the best of idols, but this “rumour about a tweet of a screenshot of an assumption a fan made in a live chat that an idol didn’t refute” is not concrete proof of anything
On shipping, I think I'm mostly in the same boat. It's fan fiction, and everyone should keep that in the back of their minds when following these things. For me, unless the ship-couple themselves acknowledge it, I don't want to follow it. Most ships are supposed to be light and fun, but some people take it way too far. Slow motion videos of eye contact or hand holding sex to love-songs is creepy.
An example of a fun ship would be Shuhua and Soojin. The openly acknowledge and enjoy play flirting... but there always is a line. Shuhua, despite being the aggressor usually in the ship is also the most conservative. While she talks a big game, she pulls back when that line is crossed. SO it's painfully clear that they are close friends who just enjoy playing around (and if the fans enjoy it too, that's just the cherry on top). With that in mind, the creepy levels some of these videos go really make cute and innocent moments come off as overly sexual. I don't like it.
I totally agree. As a fan its just fun to see that kind of joking flirty interaction. Especially if the idols themself joke like that. But when fans start to force the idea, it just irks me.
this! i can kind of understand people making fanfiction and keeping it solely in a literary context (& using the ship as a muse of sorts) but i think it crosses the line big time when people can’t separate fiction from reality. shipping videos, spamming their theories under posts from the actual artists, attacking them, attacking their irl partners if they have one, attacking other band mates for “disrupting the ship,” actually confronting the artist(s) about it in person, etc. THAT’S weird.
who tf writes fanfiction on real ppl or others relationships💀 dont get me started on mature ffs
@@iya923 inexperienced writers, as 99.9% of teens.. they have their "characters" "given to them", they could take them as inspiration for something else tho but the views wouldn't be the same. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@emilyvera8538
??? dont get ur point bozo.
its disrespectful to write a romantic/mature book on a real person.
Stray Kids have shown a lot of support for the LGBTQ community, one example being a fan thanked Felix for the group showing support and he said he just wanted people to be happy (or smth like that), he also said "boy or girl" when a different fan asked him his ideal type. Also they've worn clothing items made in support, and they even showed up at NYC pride in 2018, walked around and talked to fans that they saw there! (The group is also joked to be a "group for a the gays")
I should note that "modernization" is in part to be blamed for aggressive homophobia in Korea. Homophobia is not natural; it's cultural. And in East-Asia homophobia can be traced to Western influence during the first modernization A.K.A. when East-Asian countries first started to imitate Westerners. Homosexuals and heterosexuals were definetly not seen as equals even before the first modernization, but the ardent condemnation of homosexual acts was not as prevelant. Since you are from a country with an on-going history of imperialism, I find it problematic that you mention modernization and adapting to Western culture as a positive without recognizing the damage modernization/Western influence has done. I'm not saying that you're a bad person for making what I regard as a mistake. This isn't an attack on you personally. Great video otherwise. Just wanted to bring this up.
I just got to that part and thought this too. Especially since colonialism brought Christianity and western views against homosexuality. Ancient east asian buddhist monks were actually chill with homosexuality.
agree!!!! this is something a lot of americans and other westerners don't think about
Thanks for this info 👍🏽
@@rainespells1273 What's funny is that the original text of the Bible doesn't say anything about homosexuality. It's mistranslated. It was telling people not to be pedos. So all of this calamity in the world due to that religion is unfounded. How depressing is that
@@5050TM yes. It's the people who do this. Not the religion
I feel so disgusted when I think of skinship just for fan service, like that's queerbaiting and LGBTQ+ people isn't a marketing strategy you can profit off of especially when it's done by idols that are cis hets. I understand if some cis het idols are curious about themselves therefore they're partaking in these performative acts. But it's wrong when assigned to do forcefully by the agency to the idols who don't feel comfortable doing it. Representation is important but not in a way where it becomes a trend and to get views, again, especially when's it is a cis het person acting it out. It takes time to process this properly as it might seem confusing but I just wish somehow queerbaiting were made ¡llegal. Not to mention I didn't say I hate idols who do skinship or skinship should be stopped but, should rather be done by the idols' own will. There are many idols who like that type of skinship then it's okay ofcourse. Sad thing is we might not always know whether idols are doing skinship naturally or they are enforced to do it.
wow i never thought of that. it's also absurd how (korean) fans like skinships but will bully their idol to death if they come out
@@paulina3755 hypocrites with double standards.
make it illegal? that would be legal nightmare to prove that.
So true, I remember the time when Taehyung and Hoseok were made to kiss each other on the lips on a show in their rookie days, Tae looked so uncomfortable, it is so so wrong for the companies to make idols do things they are not comfortable with, I feel bad for the idols🙁
making it illegal would have way horrible consequences
yoongi has said his ideal type “is not limited to a woman” and rapped about same sex cunnilingus a couple times. alot of straight armys try to obscure these or call mistranslation regardless of how many times native korean speakers clarify.
hold on… when did he rap abt same sex cunnilingus??????
@@allforthenookie cypher pt 3 and agust d
cunnilingus is specifically on a vagina lol you mean oral sex😭
It's just a saying, doesnt have to mean anything
@@phi180 how is my ideal type is not limited to a woman a saying
the one idol i haven't seen people talk about more is minsung, ex-member of toppdogg, he is openly aroace, came out as asexual in august 2017 and aromantic about one or two months later! he's now a dancer and choerographer under the name navinci!! :)
Sure this will fall on deaf ears but knock it off with the aggressive shipping and assuming people’s identity.
A person’s sexuality/gender journey is their own, and should be respected. It can be complicated and difficult under the best of circumstances, let alone with the number of constraints idols live under. I know the struggle I and other LGBTQ+ friends have been through, and we didn’t have to deal with an international audience on top of all of it.
You do not know someone else’s life. Plenty of Western celebrities have expressed how tabloid culture and internet gossip only made it more difficult for them to come to understand their identities. I suspect a number of idols to be queer/asexual/NB/etc, but what I don’t do is speculate wildly on social media - where we know idols frequent - because I would never want my assumptions to affect them. I’ve watched idols who were close grow apart and I suspect the fans insisting they were a couple was at least partly responsible.
What’s especially upsetting is so many offenders are LGBTQ+ themselves - you all should know better. You should know to respect everyone’s individual process. And you should know nonsense like “well he holds his pen in a gay way” is highly reductive. Seeing yourself in your idols is fine, being an out and proud fan is great, but never confuse your parasocial relationship for the absolute truth.
End rant. Sure this will go no where good, but felt it can’t be said enough…
I think this shipping culture also partially stems from the lack of LGBTQIA+ content that isn't just "out there to be there", if you get what I'm saying.
Such content isn't listed based on it's genre, like content depicting heterosexual relationships, it's completely alienated into it's own category. Whilst that may help people find what they're looking for, it's actually just continuing to push this idea that relationships are simply *just* relationships for heterosexual people, but they're something to be gawked at if the people involved identify anywhere else on the spectrum.
I think it also goes into the fact that people are generally attracted to the idol(s) they support, as that's how the industry has created the perception of them; to be your girlfriend or boyfriend, as to sell more merchandise and music in the name of "support". So by combining both their attraction and desire for specific content relating to a fan's identity, you get this shipping culture, which I've witnessed as either between the members or between the fan and the member(s).
Your first sentence definitely needs to be more widely addressed in everyday life, because there are so many media sites and reporters now that infiltrate into people's relationships as a job, and I couldn't think of a worse thing if it ever happened to me. Some people are just so bored with life, it's actually really sad.
I also want to add, writing fan fiction and/or creating media centred around the depiction of idols in a specific ship is fine, but I would suggest being careful and aware of where you post it, if you choose to. I don't like the idea of "Twitter fics", as that's where many idols frequent (like you said), so instead use platforms that were specifically created for fans and/or people who hold the same interests as you. Such platforms would include ones like: AO3, Wattpad, DeviantArt, Amino, specific fandom apps/websites, etc.
@@user-dg3ug7ny5d Lack of representation is 100% at the heart of problematic pop culture consumption. People are desperate to see themselves and to feel seen. But it shouldn’t excuse bad behaviour we see all the time in all media/genres (e.g. attacking good faith criticism of certain show or performer, being overly forgiving of celebrity wrongdoings, attacking creators who didn’t do the impossible and represent the entire __ experience)
I’ll never forget the stan who marched onto Twitter to loudly proclaim the “10 Gayest Idols” and Holland caught site of his 10th ranking and clapped back, and while it’s awesome that he did that it really sucks that he even had to…
This is so true. This is also why I find the argument for shipping of “well heteronormativity is bad” so fcking stupid. Like yes, statistically they could be gay and yes heteronormativity is bad. But saying that shipping an idol with someone of the same sex is bad because it could make them uncomfortable does not equal denying the fact they could be gay. It’s like fans just completely ignore and disregard cultural context to prioritize their joy of shipping and it’s so sad. Especially when so many kpop stans are lgbt+. Like you’d think we of all people would know the societal pressures of being outed and how uncomfortable mentionings of being gay is… but for some reason we can’t relate this discomfort and danger to idols. It’s disheartening. I know I’m probably not expressing my thoughts well, but that argument is so dumb and I hope that we can somewhat de-normalize shipping since as society currently stands in regards to lgbt+ it really does more damage than good.
Saying sure this will fall on “deaf ears” is ableist ur using a disability negatively/nm /gen
@@hithere2477 It’s just a common saying, I wouldn’t go around calling people ableist for using a common saying, especially if you don’t know them
As a closeted gay, and going on the topic of shipping. I get really uncomfortable when people have arguments of who is the top and bottom in the relationship like wtf. Don’t you think you’re going too far? It’s honestly disgusting to me
I also hate that. As a pan girl I enjoy reading LGBTQIA+ stories and it makes me so mad when the comments are covered with top/bottom debates!
Like just read the story, why is your only focus sex....
also many gays switch in real life. Especially hate when people assign bottom role to less tall, "prettier" and delicate looking boy or girl or nb, it doesn't always work like that dude. My bestie looks almost like a small pretty emo girl and he likes to top tall boys hahah
Ikr. Not only that it's cringey but i also find it extremely offensive. I also noticed that this can sometimes be a detriment if those kpop idols were aware abt it which can cause them to be uncomfortable towards each other. Plus, shippers can get so toxic to the point they'll drag the idol if they act differently than what they consider as "top" or "bottom" behavior. They push buttons and expect everyone to receive it well. The fact that they based it only with the concept of masculinine and feminine roles stereotype for knowing who's dominant or what is just petty to me.
@@youdeserveeverything8927 this is true when it comes to shipping fictional characters as well, especially if they ship them as gay
The fetishization of gay men in k pop blows my mind, and it’s always from people who don’t understand how hurtful it is. Yes your erotica fan fiction written about two Korean men for your pleasure is fetishization. Especially if you consider yourself a straight woman. I have to admit I fell into this trap as a middle schooler. Becoming self aware and acknowledging your flaws is difficult but it is so worth it. :)
How is it hurtful? 😂 Drawings hurt who?
@@eehyetti if a bunch of dudes came up to you and was like: "hey bro i ship you and your friend so much made some sick smut of you guys" you would be kinda weirded out too. Maybe so weirded out you'd stop hanging out with your friend as much to stop being shipped. Maybe so so weirded out that you try telling the creepy shippers to stop but they don't listen, claiming it doesnt harm anyone. it does harm people though.
@@vronjiIf I stopped hanging out with my friend over some smut somebody drew rather than laughing about it with them, then she/he was never my friend. You sound very childish and oblivious of the meaning of friendship. Even if I get weirded out, I can’t control other people as long as it’s not a crime they’re doing. So if that was my friend getting weirded out, I’d say suck it up and just don’t pay attention to it cause it’s just drawings as they don’t harm you but your stupid thoughts do.
@@eehyetti ur sick.
@@vronji Seriously, I saw someone online say that they found out their whole class shipped them and someone else and made art of it :(
I am a lesbian since age 11 and I started writing gay fanfiction four years ago. I did not dare telling people that I was lesbian, so instead i wrote about my own experiences in fanfiction, and changed the woman x woman characters to men x men characters. I wanted real books and interesting stories made by LGBT made for LGBT. I've written for many fandoms, and these last years for KPOP ships. I write both male x male and woman x woman fanfictions now.
One thing that upset me about your video if how you seem to assume that everyone who writes male x male fanfiction is a h*rny cis girl, lusting for gay men and dreaming of being with those gay men, because they are less of a 'threat' for her. You sort of miss the point that A LOT of people write fics because it's a way for them to deal with their own life, before they are ready to come out themselves. As a lesbian woman it felt safe for me to write about gay men. When I was ready I could come out and start writing woman x woman stories, but by writing about men I could put on some distance to my own life, my own fears, and instead focus on creating an amazing LGBT story.
I think it's disgusting how straight people, often people who doesn't even fight for LGBT rights, fetishise and sexualize gay and lesbian relationships. It's like saying you want to watch gay people have sex and get off on them but they shouldn't have any rights, shouldn't get to vote, shouldn't get to marry. It's sick, and I don't understand it.
South Korea, along with about 90% of the countries of the world, should really put their time and money into better education and development of emotional intelligence and empathy. How will the human race ever evolve forward if people are put into prison for holding someone's hand.
In general, LGBT people tend to be drawn towards music, arts, theatre and creative projects. There are more gay men among dancers than among builders and truck drivers. Therefore, if South Korea is anything like my own country, it's safe to assume that the percentage of gay people is larger among KPOP artists than among the general population, and it makes this issue even more serious. These people do not only have to uphold an image, work 18 hours a day, smile all the time, starve, be watched 24/7, but they need to hide who they are, who they want to love. And if they were ever to hint at their sexuality, then toxic fans will pretend like it never happened, defend him/her, say it was a joke. No matter what it's a losing battle.
I'm a woman but when I started watching Kpop in 2011 I only watched girl groups. It took me years to realize that most of the other fans were men. Why is it normalized that men should objectify women in girl groups? It has changed these last years, with Black Pink and groups like g-idle, who have a more even fanbase. But still.
I am a shipper, but I am also mature, I go to university, I understand that shipping is a fun past time and that the ships are fictional. I love the friendships in these groups and I like the thought of some of them having been romantic at some point. But I'm not delusional, I respect my idols, I still love them no matter what. If my bias turns out to be gay or lesbian I will love them. If my bias turns out to be straight I will love them. But it's toxic, the way that people get angry, toxic and straight up scary once you say "Maybe he's/she's gay." Then you are attacked, as if you just claimed your idol to be a r*pist, murderer. Being LGBT is not a disease.
Imagine if an idol actually is gay, and then they see all the hate and backlash that appears when someone claims that they're gay. How would they ever love themselves enough to come out? Instead of being hateful and scared, we should welcome people to be gay. "Oh yeah maybe he's gay, maybe not. Who knows, but he sure look cute with that jacket.
yo this made me tear up just a bit omg. beautifully written!
I don’t think you understand the video-
couldn't say it better myself, thank you so much
I will not talk about the rest of your comment but I do want to say something about women writing BL stories. I'm glad it made you feel better about yourself but you're very wrong when you say it's not harmful. I'm a queer men and I watch a mot of bl series, most of which adapted from books written by women and more specifically straight women and has been reading fanfic for years. It is a fetish. These stories are often really toxic or portray relationships between men in a very unrealistic way. Obviously no one cares cause the targeted public is not the one being portrayed but it does bother actual mlm. The stories are so heteronormative you can tell they're not written buy queer men. They're also often hypersexualised cause of course men like sex. The truth is these women don't write bl stories cause they're genuine but to fulfill a fantasy they share with other women. I'm not saying it's inherently bad but saying they're not fetishising queer men and using them as a vessel for their own fantasies would be a lie
Yup! I was around 11-14 when I discovered same s€x relationships. I always felt bad looking back thinking I was fetishizing them, but turns out I'm just gay & trans and living in a conservative country I was desperate for any kind of representation that told me my feelings are valid.
I have never understood this one thing about the Kpop industry and fandoms. There is blatant homophobia YET male idols are aggressively shipped? I don't get it. Isn't that contradictory and hypocritical?
Yes and yes. The companies sometimes push fanservice because it makes them lots of money, regardless of whether company staff or the idols themselves actually support lgbtq+ or not.
I've been a kpop fan for 15 years, I've seen all sorts of shippers and there's really not just one reason people ship 🤷🏻♀️ Some fans feel unhealthy and obsessive attachment to an idol and can't bear the thought of their idol dating or want to date the idol themselves (don't get me started on how kpop marketing promotes this by making idols seem 'available' and do and say 'boyfriend' things), so they will ship their idol with someone 'safe' (i.e. shipping them with a member of the same group because they see it as impossible for them to date a group member/friend; if they're homophobic they might ship them with a same-sex idol because it's 'fake' to them because they can't even imagine their idol not being cis/straight). Some fans are just fetishizing gay relationships (which can sometimes overlap into homophobia imo). Some fans are just young or immature and get sucked into shipping because of how much they love their idol(s) and it's a way for them to express that or feel like they fit in with other fans. Some shippers are lgbtq+ themselves and are shipping in an effort to seek representation, feel acceptance, explore their identity, etc.
meanwhile we hanging in the haikyuu fandom like ʕ•ٹ•ʔ
@@Flawlesslmperfection good lord ....that was an illuminating factoid....thanks :)
@@kurootsuki3326 well.... Haikyuu is supreme and that's a fact! :D
they are just plain hypocrites with double standards
I remember when an idol said his ideal type was a guy like one of his group members, and they made him change his wording to something else because they didn't like that he said that his ideal type was 'a guy'.
That happened to Romeo's Kangmin. My heart hurts whenever I remember that clip.
omg...
That's so rude.
Tomorrow X Together also has supported the lgbtq community multiple times.
1. Taehyun and Yeonjun talked about how the album "Blue Neighborhood" by Troye Sivan (which talks about being queer) really touched them, they said they watched the MVs (which depict a gay relationship) and they even sang some of those songs in their evaluations as trainees and cried lol.
2. Yeonjun wore a shirt in support of nb people and often challenges the gender binary by wearing skirts and other items saying "men can do this too"
3. Soobin, Beomgyu and Yeonjun have comforted trans MOAs in fancalls telling them "it's okay, don't cry" and I believe bg and yj said "trans rights" too
so yes txt IS for the gays !!!
38:37 I want to take the time to thank you for this absolute banger of a quote "this man collects lesbians like keychains" bc I thought it was so funny, immediately after watching this video I went on Discord and changed my display name to Min Yoongi’s Lesbian Keychain and never looked back
As a semi-openly lgbtqia+ idol I would like to mention Dreamcatcher's Yoohyeon. She has never said "I am [ sexuality]", but in an interview where she was asked what type of *man* she prefers, she said she likes hardworking *people*. When the interviewer repeated her words but said "Yoohyeon likes hardworking *men*" she once said "no I like hardworking people, ALL people"
Again, she's not openly lgbtqia+ in the sense that she has come out, but in this industry I feel like this is as close as an idol would go without fear of losing their job (with the exception of Holland). In no way do I wanna force a label onto Yoohyeon, and if she isn't lgbt that's totally fine, but it's kind of nice to see an idol who seemingly indirectly came out
yes queen yoohyeon 😭💖
In their boca era, she introduced herself as "hi I'm yoohyeon puppy I like everyone" in idol picnic.
And sometime ago, she responded to a fan who is struggling to come out on weverse. She said somewhere along the lines of "it's ok I'm here"
Even if shes not queer, I just appreciate her by doing so TT
I mean Dreamcatcher is a whole gay vibe lol but they're adorable and seem to be very accepting of others
I'm not here to label anyone either but... that's what I used to say when I was afraid to come out to my family. I'd just say "I like *insert attractive trait* people.
So yeah, this resonated a lot with me as a bi girl lol
As a trans person, I’m devastated that I only got into SHINee after Jonghyun’s passing. I wish I could’ve witnessed and appreciated just how amazing he was while he was still here. A kpop idol as big as Jonghyun accepting transgender people is something I never thought I would see as people have a hard time accepting non-straight people, never mind trans people. I know fellow trans ARMYs have had positive interactions with BTS, and Wonho (ex-MONSTA X) apparently dated a trans guy pre-debut, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen them clearly voice their support for us like Jonghyun did for that fan. I hope that wherever he is, he’s at peace and he’s happy because that man truly deserved the world.
I was lucky enough to see them live during Hello era and he had such a beautiful, warm and passionate aura. I didn't get to meet him sadly but it was very special
to my understanding the "trans guy" that wonho supposedly dated is not actually trans but was forced to take hormones by her ex gf so they could be together. also im not sure wonho and her even dated but they were good friends.
@@realmothchu That's super messed up, I hope she's doing ok now :(
Jonghyun was just made different from everybody else. He was literally the best person if not in the world at least in south korea. I fucking love him with my whole heart
i dont know why people can't ship friendship..why it have to be romatic?when i joined kpop fandom i actually thought it is about friendship even still i ship many of them as best buddies..i even act more romantic to my bestfriend just for fun than these idols do but i am not part of lgbtq..if a idol came out part of lgbtq than we must support but we have no right to assume their sexuality..even if a idol is gay doesnt mean he has romantic feelings for everyone in his group he can make brothers best friend it's normal
Something she said in this video hit me hard. It was the fact that closeted people in a homophobic area or situation are scared and uncomfortable when being gay is even mentioned. I grew up in a homophobic household and the paranoia and fear that somehow I would be outed and left on the streets every time I'm with someone and I see an lgbtq+ couple or person, saw rainbow things, or someone mentioned lgbtq+ is so overwhelming and terrifying. The situation I'm in, if I was outed I would be in danger. Its really something people don't talk about that often, but they should.
EDIT: WLW relationships seem more accepted in media because women are often viewed by men as overly emotional and dependent, so guys seeing two girls being intimate in their minds let's them buy into the idea that its just girls being emotional and needing to rely on someone but not having a guy around to do so.
35:40 I'm a former block b fan and I despise Zico for many things (homophobia, cultural appropriation, ...). He was the leader. And one of his member confessed PRIVATELY to him that he has maybe feelings toward Zico (he was confused about it) and that man (Zico) had the audacity to make fun of it publicly. He didn't apology tho the member were hella uncomfortable. But that dind't stop Zico to kiss another member in the mouth for fanservice. This man said and did so many stupid things since his debut but always went away without any kind of legit apology.
I love their music and I didn't know this oh my gosh :( This is really sad bc I thought he was better than that y'know?
damn i always felt some kind of bad vibez from zico nad ppl called me stupid for that... guess i had a hunch
could you send me a source for this? I've been a fan of block b but not so much that I kept up with everything they did
Zico is trash in so many ways
@@thekeytomyheart_ czcams.com/video/k-N91aMvJTU/video.html In the vid you can see Taeil (the outed member) being so uncomfortable while half of the group (mainly Zico) are laughing... At least some members tried to "protect" him
I know this isn't the main topic but I really like how you touched on how accepting the kpop community is to other LGBTQ+ people. I am a kpop and a sports fan, and luckily sports fans are getting more accepting for people like me, but I really hope sports fans will one day be as accepting as most of my kpop friends are. It's a breath of fresh air honestly
I stan NU’EST and Ren from the group has been openly supportive to equality and LGBTQ community since forever.
He debuted with the famous long hair and feminine face and was always treated rudely by homophobics but his responds were genuine. He promoted for the neutral gender clothes brand before. There’s many fanacc talking about how supportive he was to the LGBTQ fans.
He’s played as main actor in 2 musicals and his roles always have drag queen parts. The 2 musicals are “Everybody’s talking about Jamie” (this one even has kissing scene with another man) and “Hedwig the Angry Inch”. You guys can search for the plot to know more.
I adore him. NU'EST are my ults and he is my bias
What disgust me in the industry is the hypocrisy of some fans: they do love skinship between idols and even sexualise them when they do it but if they are discovered being gay or if they are rumours they find it discusting or even unbelievable like if it wasn't possible. I deeply hate that.
Ps: I loved your video!!
as a member of lgbtq+ and someone who uses she/they/he pronouns i feel bad for all lgbt kpop idols but i feel extremely bad mainly for the trans kpop idol bc if u like a gender u can still date and be happy while hiding it but i cant imagine being deadnamed and misgendered every single day and the gender dysphoria must be horrible
I'd assume those idols would transition before debut and keep it hidden
@@NukeNukedEarth transitioning is very expensive and often times theres huge wait lists for those surgeries….and then theres also the possibilities of those idols not being out to their families so would say that isnt likely,,,
@@NukeNukedEarth they really cant do that predebut photos and baby photos exist most of time they r alr in the public and most idols start training very young an age where they might not even realize that they r trans and most people dont even know they are until in their twentys or thirtys
@@NukeNukedEarth and some evil ass people who knew them might even leaked that they did
Lgbtq+*** dont forget the rest of us please and thanks!
I also really hate as a lgbt+ member when ppl are like “omg stop they’re all straight” or smth like that bc it pushes into the idea that either being heterosexual is the only normal thing to be and keeps the idea that straight is the norm. while also pushing the idea everyones straight until they come out when no one should NEED to come out to anyone unless they want to, like the idols that have never commented on their sexuality are just unlabeled in my brain since i do not know or need to know their sexuality.
btw whoever is reading this, you are completely valid never think otherwise
true. I hate when people say things like "stop assuming thr sexuality!!1!11!!" but will be the same people assuming that they're all straight.
@@hadiakhan6658 that's not how it works. if a gay person believed that they were straight at one point (usually due to internalized homophobia), that doesn't mean that they suddenly turned gay once they finally figured themselves out. That's who they always were, but they likely had a hard time understanding themselves due to heteronormativity and homophobia in society.
If I meet somebody, unless he or she shows signs of otherwise, I just assume they're straight. Why? Course I've only met like 10 gays in my life, and I'm a 23 yo dude from Gen Z in an international academy
@Melanated Princess you say "stop assuming" but then immediately call straight the default right afterwards lol. there is no point in assuming people's sexualities and there is definitely nothing true about assuming that everyone is straight until proven otherwise.
@Melanated Princess I’d rather not be a default…
Not Friends by Loona fetishizes wlw so stinking much and it's so obvious it's more for men for representation. I know Loona is one of (if not the most) supportive groups out there, but I also know that they are also girl group, meaning the majority of their profit comes from cis straight men, so they have to cater for their interests. For those who don't know, in the music video of Not Friends, Heejin and Jinsoul's characters have an interesting relationship. I believe either Heejin or Jinsoul (correct me if I'm wrong) described it as an enemies or lovers sort of deal in the BTS video.
With that said, I really admire how supportive Loona is of the LGBTQIA+ community. When Chuu and Yves heard about fans interpreting the Loonaverse with Chuu and Yves (Chuuves) being a couple, they said they hadn't thought about it but that they really like the idea and are glad that people can find representation in their music. There are so many more instances of Loona being supportive, but I don't want to type it all. Feel free to reply with them if you want :) as always, stan loona!
okay, i will hear and see people say “don’t assume the idols sexuality” blah blah blah, but what they don’t know is that being straight is a sexuality and assumes an idol is straight. but then they get mad for ppl for assuming an idols sexuality is in the LGBTQ+ community. not saying that assuming an idols sexuality is okay, but u can have your own opinions but don’t force it into other people or the idols themselves.
@Magic is Midoriya. that’s literally what i just said. if you read through my comment clearly i said “don’t force ur opinion on other ppl and the idols and i also said it wasn’t okay to assume an idols sexuality”
@Magic is Midoriya. that's what she said actually . Try reading the comment once more 🙄
I also noticed that some shippers call a 3rd member who interacts with the ship a “homewrecker” or “thirdwheel” as an example we’ll take vkook, if jimin interacted with jungkook or v in a touchy way there will be ppl calling him a homewrecker. Lets also look at the concept of rival ships, vkook vs vimin (idk the name of the ship) the common member between the two ships would be v which pins jimin and jungkook against each other to “fight for v’s attention.” Since vkook is more popular than vimin, jimin would be addressed as a thirdwheel, homewrecker, maybe even a mistress (ik its a female term btw). The problem is that some shippers take it to far and start to hate on him for ruining their ships and paint him as a villain for simply interacting with v, or for being part of the rival ship that he didn’t even create. (Sorry if I didn’t explain well, english is my second language)
Bruh imagine being 3 friends just goofing around and minding your business and one of y'all starts being called a "homewrecker" wtf
Just a random person who doesn't know shite about you coming up to you and your friends just having fun and tells you "you're third wheeling" like what gtfo becky
yeah, and some taekookers even started to send jimin death threats. its so dumb and toxic tbh.
@@natalieolmstead2286 oh god I saw that... Wtf peoplr should know there's limit to shipping. Its NEVER okay if you cross the line to hurting a person involved mentally or physically.
That apply to every ship involving the maknae line. The most toxic one are taekook shippers and jikook shippers. They always hate on Tae n Jimin. Jungkook is seen as an object to their fantasized
all 3 of them are disgusted by these delulu level shipping but some armys don't stop at all. Its annoying and horrifying.
on the topic of outing: I just wanted to say that this video kind of implied that outing is only a big deal when your family or people around aren't accepting. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but I think it's important to remember that coming out is extremely personal, so outing anyone no matter how accepting their family or town, is entirely unacceptable. I know from experience that even if you're sure your family will be somewhat accepting, it's a horrible feeling to know that someone has the power to take away an experience that should be entirely your own.
Thank you! My friend outed me to two other mutual friends and even though they were both super accepting (which my friend and I both knew they would be) it still really hurt and destroyed my trust in her.
I still distinctly remember when someone tweeted at Jae of Day6 saying they were gay and proud to support Day6, and he replied with "We got you as well!!! No one should ever have to feel a certain way for being themselves. Don't let nobody tell you otherwise. You're you and that's beautiful in itself." Made me kinda emotional tbh.
there was one twitch live where jae was giving some kind of encouraging talk. he said something along the lines of “...no matter who you are, no matter who you lo- no i can’t say that, i’m christian” as if he refused to acknowledge that anyone can love anyone, because of religion.
i am in no way invalidating the emotions you felt over that reply he made at that time, but his views recently have me confused. he’s also saying so much more problematic things lately, using the fact that he’s no longer in the k-pop industry as an excuse. it just has me thinking that maybe idols just say what their fans want to hear, but not really bear these views in real life.
@@satellyte he really shouldn't be stopping himself from supporting people just because of his religion, a lot of christians support lgbtq+ people
@@satellyte also he called his friend a "thot" in a really offensive way, like it didn't even sound like a "funny joke"
@@satellyte im christian and lgbtq, i don't know why he would say that. the bible literally says to love everyone
The fact that RM mentioned bts s support of the lgbtq community at a UN meeting is just beautiful.
Romeo’s Kangmin basically came out, but that Interview always breaks my heart because the members make him change his wording while describing his ideal type from “guy” to either person or girl, I don’t remember exactly. But it was just so sad to see while also being so so proud of him for telling his truth.
Also Jiae from Wa$$up has come out as bisexual not too long ago and has posted about her girlfriend if I remember correctly.
Omg I was just thinking about that while watching this, but I couldn't remember who he was or what group he was from. He said his ideal type was a guy, and his members were panicking basically pressuring him to change his wording. But even when he changed his words, he said person instead of girl
@@idaisonlinealot p.o ooou iui iou>
As a straight guy who had mostly female friends in high school, I actually cry when I watch girls being close friends and just having fun. Your section on the female gaze made me realize this, when sexuality started becoming an issue, I was always jealous of our gay friend (small town, we only had one in our grade who was open about it) because of how the girls treated him compared to me and how I was pushed away in the end. I used to roll my eyes when people brought up the male gaze, but I understand it now.
During my 10 years of being alone since graduating, I've had times when I wondered if I was actually trans because of this. I think I'm comfortable with my body, just not with how other people look at it. It would have probably been easier to be the person I wanted to be if I was born female, although much harder in other ways.
Wow that is so interesting to read. I've never heard this point of view from a cis man. And I'm so sorry that you feel like you couldn't be yourself because of how people thought of you and this view probably being very stereotyped and made of prejudice. Even though I am a woman and got kinda cautious with man over the years myself, I feel bad for you because being judged like that based off your sex and gender is unfair. But of course this happens to girls and women all the time, so this is very interesting. But on the other hand I can totally understand these girls because a lot of woman always kinda fear that their male friends want more than platonic friendship, which is so sad. But that's why most women have mostly female friends or like you said gay or lgbtqia+ friends, because it's more platonic and safer that way. And I hope you have more female friends nowadays and if you really want some then keep looking, because there are definitely a lot of woman out there who want friends. :)
I have a very similar experience although I am aromantic asexual (so I am not seen as a "threat"). It definitely has led to me forming really close friendships I don't think would have happened otherwise, which makes me feel sad for all those who have lost out (due to extremely legitimate fears) but it's still unfortunate nonetheless.
@@nna4483 I don't think I have the social skills required to navigate that again, I'm almost 30 now and when I said alone I meant it's been 10 years since I talked to a girl aside from business stuff, like cashiers. There's only one guy from school who I'm still in contact with.
I can't blame anyone for what happened though, I didn't do everything I could to dispel those misconceptions. They just made me more desperate and clingy.
Since you brought up sex and gender separately, there's a reason I refer to myself as a "guy" and not a "man". I never accepted that title, the expectations are too high and I can't live up to them. I've been hiding away in my parent's basement and couldn't even find the motivation to hold a job as simple as stock associate at Walmart.
@David J -- I've wished I was asexual before, I've only been in a sexual relationship with 2 girls in my life and bringing it to that step feels like it ruins everything between us. Not sure if it's a complex or a phobia, but I'm terrified of sex now.
This may just be a coping mechanism from my isolation or maybe I've really developed an aversion to relationships in general, but I've recently considered myself aromantic as well.
what u just said is probably one of the most interesting opinions ive heard, thank u for sharing
@@eremesguile9036 Jesus, this is so interesting, and sad too, I guess? I'm not sure if I understood it all but I hope you're happy
Edit: I think I feel the same way about relationships recently, even though i don't consider myself ace/aro. It's a thing that comes and goes for me.
seventeen, especially vernon, has showed support to the community in an american interview. he said something along the lines of “i’m happy that we can make you feel safe” (for context he answered a question from a fan who asked if they had anything to say to their lgbtq fans) and hongjoong said something similar in an online fan meet. stan
I have a friend that loves the super explicit fanfictions with mlm, abuse and drama and I always thought it was kinda weird... thanks for explaining it in a concise way
I’ve always hated shipping the members together romantically
I just thinks its funny how their producers would tell them dance sexily or flirt with the same gender, but when an idol/actor actually comes out, they get mad and confused.
@@stephen4681 exactly
@@hadiakhan6658 yupp that situation was not it
yuta (nct) has shown his support and concerns for transgender people and has said he worries for them!!
ten and doyoung as well 😌✊
King 👑
🥺 that's so sweet of him
Fun fact: In the 18th century, a Joseon civil minister named Shin Yoo Han (신유한) visited Osaka. He recorded his findings in the city, and the most shocking one for him was Japan's normalization of nanshoku, or male homosexuality. He asked his interpreter, "How can they feel any pleasure if there are two Yangs (masculinity) or no Yins (femininity)?" This is a reference to the Daoist concept of Yin and Yang, where two opposites come together to form one complete whole. This obviously works well with heterosexuality, but it directly contradicts homosexuality. The Japanese interpreter then replied, "It is clear that you have never tried experiencing that pleasure for yourself." The civil minister was so shocked and dumbfounded by this reply that he was left speechless.
These were obviously events that took place long ago, but I think that extreme heteronormativity exists to this day. Even the more "progressive" young Koreans will say things like, "I don't understand why homosexuals choose to have sex with the same gender, but at the end of the day it's none of my business." The idea that a person is naturally attracted to the same sex is almost impossible to fathom for many. To them, all gay people are actually straight people who merely make the choice to date and sleep with members of the same sex. It's quite sad, and there's such little visibility or opportunity for queer Korean voices to be heard, so a lot of Koreans just go off what they assume about queer people instead of what queer people say about themselves. And while Hollywood played a considerable role in the advancement of queer acknowledgment in the US, that opportunity seldom comes by in Korea because K-Pop idols are bound to contracts and agencies that restrict their every move and prevent them from doing anything remotely controversial
I’m a straight girl and when I was in high school between 2012-2016 (a catholic school mind you lol) is when I got into Kpop and was absolutely obsessed with BL and stuff. I wrote really dirty fanfic about my fav ships and looked up fanart and videos of my ships all the time. I didn’t grow up with any LGBTQ+ people around me (except for one friend who came out very casually to me senior year as Bi) and never really thought anything about what I was doing. Obviously now being 23 and atheist I can see how what I was doing was so messed up and creepy and extremely embarrassing to look back on. I won’t lie though, I still really like reading BL and do kinda like the stories you can tell with that kind of dynamic between characters and idk if it’s wrong of me to feel that way, but when I see idols doing skinship and stuff, I actually can feel awkward at times cause I’m always thinking “are they okay with doing that though? Are they comfortable? I really hope they are and that they agreed to do that” cause sometimes you can tell when something feels forced and then I just feel bad for them. Idk if this comment made a lot of sense but I just felt like sharing this
I always found it weird how the default sexuality is straight, there's this weird attitude among everyone that someone's straight until said otherwise, and how kpop fans say "don't assume their Sexuality they're STRAIGHT", like sugar plum you literally just assumed their gender by saying they're straight lmao, if an idol has not confirmed their Sexuality then just say its unconfirmed ☠, most kpop idols have never said they're straight OR LGBTQ so just mind your own business and focus on your own Sexuality, if an idol comes out then that's cool but if they don't then don't make a deal of it
“90% tho!!!!!”
Technically it's just because that's the vast majority. Like over 90%. So it's reasonable, however I do think it still makes sense to, when it's relevant to ask ppl they're sexuality if they're comfortable instead of assuming they're straight.
I agree, though most of the times, I tell them to not assume their sexuality since we don’t know if they’re straight, gay, etc..
Like, I guess assuming that 2 people of the opposite gender could be in a relationship is much more likely than 2 people of the same gender
As a gay person, sometimes I wonder if I’m just complaining too much about representation if media might just be reflecting the demographics of the world, at least when it comes to sexual orientation. “Most people are straight, you’re just a weird exception, deal with it and stop making everyone else uncomfortable”
That’s their ✨heteronormative mindset✨ showing
As a member of the LGBTQ+ Community, I always like to make sure if a group I want to stan has shown any support for the community or if they have made any kind of homophobic comments. Because I can't support someone who can't support me, if that makes sense.
I was lucky enough that my ultimate bias group PENTAGON is very supportive of the community. Since I started following them already before their debut, I couldn't really research wether they supported the community or not, but as the years went by, they showed their support in more than one way.
For example, one of the members (Shinwon) danced with a pride flag during their world tour and after the show they signed the pride flag and held it in a group picture, they have worn many pins, rings, shirts, shoes, and other pride accessories (and some of that stuff they own they have bought with their own money), 2 of the members (Kino and Wooseok) wrote a song (Always difficult, always beautiful) that was inspired by a lesbian couple from a Black Mirror episode, one of their MV's (Violet) has 2 of the members (Kino and Yeo One) representing a gay couple that had just broken up (The MV represents different stages of love), a fan came out to one of the members (Kino) by saying that she loved the song "Always Difficult, always beautiful" because she is a lesbian as well and asked if she should get a rainbow tattoo on her arm which Kino replied with yes. Then when she met Kino on their next fan meeting, she showed the tattoo to Kino and Kino called it beautiful.
Pentagon's Yeo One, who is also and actor, acted in a drama called " Joseon Beauty Pageant" as a man who is from a noble family and is expected to study hard but instead he is interested in all kinds of dances. Then in order to learn about a dance that is said to be the most beautiful dance, he disguises himself as a woman and participates in a Beauty Pageant.
Oh and one time they were asked which member they would introduce their sibling to, and as everyone was saying if they had any siblings, Hongseok said that he has an older brother and Shinwon asked "Oh then who would you introduce your brother to?"
Lmao sorry, I love bragging about them lol
Same!! I always do that. The first thing I do before I stan a group is to make sure that they support it.
For example Straykids is my favourite group and they have always shown a lot of support for the community, everyone of them!!
And when I was looking into for example Seventeen or Pentagon (also two of my favourite groups) it was literally the first video I watched and i am glad that they're very very supportive because their music is *perfect*!!
Especially with the song "Always difficulty Always beautiful" as you mentioned, I was one of the first song I've listened to that was kinda Pentagon related and when I was looking into the story I almost cried because you don't see it that often in Kpop.
@@rijome840 Yeah I've seen that Stray Kids have shown a lot of support for the community as well!! And yeah I was really shocked and proud when I heard the inspiration behind Always Difficult, Always Beautiful, because sadly, It really is not that common in Kpop even though it totally should be!
yess someone whose ult pentagon and part of the lgbtq
27:56 i remember somi talking about her diet and everyone was cancelling her but ive seen many male idols talking about dangerous diets and people in the comments were praising them for being hard working
Just stumbled across this, and a group that has really been breaking Korea's norms by making MLM themed MVs and songs is OnlyOneOf. All of their solos focus on mlm storylines with the other members, and iirc they tend to wear and carry gay flags during concerts when given them by fans!
This was always my issue with skin ship in kpop. Not that I hate it overall, I just saw it as a little baiting to LGBTQ+ stans... Idk maybe is just me.
Definitely not just you
But skin ship is normal in Korean culture
@@hussey3867 I think she maleans fanservice
@@goldi1018 oh that makes sense
definitely not you, i thought i was werid for think it was queerbaiting but Asia have a different concept of lgbtq there and same-sex activity is legal in Korea so 🤷🏻♀️
As a member of the lgbtq+ community, I sincerely thank you for this super important and informative video. Thank you for taking the time to make such a well-researched video and thank you for being a safe place. Have a good day
Thank you for watching!
Btw, for the asexual topic, former member of the group toppdogg came out ss asexual, however, the group disbanded shortly after. Whether his coming out had an influence on that or just the group that wasn't doing well generally isn't really clear. His sexuality was sadly not the only controversy around hansol, but his mental health too. I won't go too deep into that since I don't want this comment to become too dark. You can read about it online if you want.
I met him on a dance workshop in Germany once post toppdogg disbandment and he is the most humble, understanding person, and as far as I know, is doing better as a dancer nowadays.
Edit: apparently they didn't fully disband and now exist as a 5 member group called xeno t. Originally they were 13 and those 8 members all left for different reasons. So toppdogg doesn't exist anymore, but part of the members redebuted as xeno t.
Wonho from Monsta X is also openly attracted to men. He has dated a man and stated he doesn't care about gender when dating, but hasn't officially labeled himself :)
Miyawaki Sakura is pansexual and she's an absolute queen, she always talked about important topics (in japan before even going to Korea) and is very educated and smart
Y'all better stan her for clear skin 😌✨
What is pansexual?
@@zebrasbean2385 a sexual attraction to all genders, mostly based on personality
How do you know that?
@@zebrasbean2385 people who are attracted to all genders with no preference! From a pansexual :)
please don't assume things
I prefer the fictional writing aspect of shipping. That they’re basically character templates so making good characters isn’t such an obstacle. But the “proof” stuff is 🤢
So funny when cis straight females who hardcore ship male idols but completely shame them when it may be an inkling of reality
Its very sad that Kpop Idols get shipped when they already told people "Please stop shipping us its making us feel uncomfortable,like example BTS & Blackpink which they got the most shipped ~ I feel so bad for them
Sometimes I wish fans support what their Idol is
The kpop industry, namely kpop stans, tend to fetishise queer relationships and force them onto kpop idols. What's funny to me is the hypocrisy when a kpop idol is indeed queer; people bash that person and drag them from h3ll and back yet unhealthily ship their oppars and urnnies. Its not only gross but very toxic and invalidates actual queer people.
As an ex-jikook shipper who is now queer myself, i've come to realise how harmful this can be towards the lgbtq+ community, and that trying to out someone or assume someone is queer isn't right, even when the person breaks gender roles or acts queer themselves. I wish newer kpop stans who are exposed to this just like I was break and grow out of it soon and realise that this kind of behavoiur is toxic.
why do you even ship real people with each other so weird.💀
at least you’ve repented
@@kbyeforgrande4555 thank god i have
@Mishty dances ew
I think it’s fine to ship people because it’s just about the fantasy unless you cross the line. But I am queer myself and would welcome a queer idol. As for others, I would argue it’s because they’re only comfy with the ideal of a queer relationship but in irl are affronted by it because it’s not ‘perfect’
Insane how gay relationships can be penalized and yet actual sexual harassment towards women tends to be looked over the shoulder and not given the actual importance when it comes to a judicial point.
TW: suicide, sexual harassment
Literally what my reaction was. There has been news that a female soldier committed suicide after there was no reaction to her reporting sexual harassment in the army. And that wasn't the first case like this (even only this year).
I just can't believe this is real....
"...K-pop is so fictional in so many ways", truer words have never been spoken and it's really hard to get it into some fans head, this is one of my biggest pet peeve when it comes to kpop
Idols are not pure and perfect, they are humans that can make mistakes, they are not all perfect singers, dancers or rappers, and pointing this out doesn't make you an anti smh
tbh i used to be really disgusted by rpf fanfiction, like the idea of writing fanfiction about real people was just so offensive and intrusive. But when i got into kpop, suddenly i was kinda ok with fanfiction about it, which is weird considering i still think rpf is wrong and i'm definitely not confortable with explicit fanfiction about real people (kpop idols or not)
i usually think that kpop fanfic are fans perception of the characters idols are playing, rather than the real people that they are, which is why i don't read real life fanfiction, because at the end of the day, we have no idea what they are really like. idk if i'm trying to comfort myself of if i'm honest because once in a while, i'll be like "wait. This is kinda weird"
But when fans push shipping onto idols, it's the same as making sexual comments about them, it's intrusive and disgusting
I’m so glad you made the comparison to old Hollywood. I’ve always thought that since I started to get into Kpop.
I'm pretty sure during the Joseon Dynasty male homosexuality was ok, while female homosexuality was not. This was also the case in many other cultures, such as Ancient Greece, Imperial China and more, this is mostly because it was ok for men to seek pleasure without consequences, but women had to be self sacrificing and selfless and pure. In Japan, before the Meiji period both male and female homosexuality were acceptable, even between monks, this seems to be because Japan put less importance on female purity and virginity. Not like they were equally acceptable but more so than in other cultures.
Now it's kinda opposite
@@ManishKumar-vi9qi fetishisation is not acceptance
@@lesbiantree6464i agrees
i can understand people making fanfiction and keeping things solely in the realm of literature or art (& just using the ship as a muse of sorts), but i think it crosses the line big time when people can’t separate fiction from reality. shipping videos, spamming their theories under posts from the actual artists, attacking them, attacking their irl partners if they have one, attacking other band mates for “disrupting the ship,” actually confronting the artist(s) about it in person, purposefully trying to make the idols see explicit fan content, etc. THAT’S weird. when that line of fiction versus reality gets blurred and people refuse to keep it to themselves is when things get toxic and uncomfortable, imo. also, on queerbaiting, i think it’s fair to say that the companies may ask the idols to play things up and that is queerbaiting, but saying the idols themselves are queerbaiting hasn’t ever sat right with me. their country is not an easy one to come out in so just because they aren’t out doesn’t mean they’re baiting you and that they aren’t actually queer in some way. they don’t owe us a whole coming out, in their conservative country, just to validate you trying to push your idea of what their sexuality is onto them. they don’t exist just to be representation for us, they’re people too. if the idol has said something harmful about the LGBTQ community but does fan service THAT deserves to called out, but other than that, don’t demonize them for not being out. i hope we get more openly queer idols to push the need for tolerance but culturally and from a business standpoint (for the idol’s livelihood) i understand why that huge LOUD call for justice hasn’t happened yet. it’s more gray than people want to admit that it is.
im glad you brought up the fan fic point. i wont lie that ive been someone to make fan fiction in the past but i didnt think i was particularly doing anything wrong as the way i saw was i was just simply using their name and ig likeness to create stories. essentially i was taking advantage of the fact people knew what they looked like and that i didnt have to create a new name and it felt the easiest for me at the tome to practice writing stories. but i know that not everyone thinks the same way and cat separate the person from the material. and thats what made me uncomfortable. but ig in the long run it still may be weird
@@boylettuce1458 I’ve written RPF as well but I’ve slowly backed away from doing it. Not because I think it’s wrong or anything, I just think there’s only so much you can play with in fanworks when it comes to making art based on a real person’s persona/image. I personally only find RPF strange when it’s about youtubers/streamers, because the parasocial relationship there is SOOOO much stronger than with a traditional celebrity or an idol. CZcamsrs and streamers are too much like “normal people” and they manage their own content a lot so they can see their fanworks and stuff much easier than a celeb or an idol would, so that is kinda strange to me personally. But, to each their own. Like I said, i don’t think the content existing is the problem necessarily, I think the fact that people can’t separate that content from the real people (and harass the real people about it) is the problem.
@@madixxoo yes absolutely. super well said. ive also stepped away from writing because ive stepped away from kpop. and now that i have, i can truly look at everything in a different way and truly understand that shipping real people is a bit odd especially when you think it's real or should be (i never did the latter tho. thank god)
This right here!!! It’s one thing to make a fan edit/fanfiction of your idols, but it’s another level to harass them in vlive comments and DMs asking about “why their ship partner isn’t with them” or actually telling them that they “betrayed” their ship partner because they did a photoshoot with another member. I feel like “shippers” are bigger problems than fanfiction but that’s just my humble opinion. I know they go hand in hand at times. I also do recognize that my reading experience with fanfiction is different than others.
A majority of their job is fanservice. Although in a lot of different cultures, how they express themselves might seem like what romantic couples do, idols-heck, even ships-can still perform those actions in a platonic way. I’m not even trying to “hetero-wash” interactions. I may be a closeted bisexual, but things like hand-holding or a longing gaze doesn’t equate dating to me. I don’t know if what they’re doing is romantic or platonic, but as a fan, we should just consume and appreciate entertainment, not over-analyze gestures and aggressively project those analyses.
On another topic, I also do appreciate a good real person fanfiction (RPF), but there’s are definitely lines that people shouldn’t cross so they can navigate reality and fiction. For example, first person pov, y/n, reader X idol, and “canon compliant” fics are no-go’s for me. I’ve heard that storylines are still pretty good, but those types of works tend to blur the lines for readers. There are a whole chunk of AUs that are such good reads and it makes me sad that they’re lumped into the “gross, sexual idol/fan scenarios” that pop up on Wattpad because, all in all, they’re RPF. Like you said, it’s both the readers and writers responsibility to differentiate reality and fiction and I wish people took that precaution to heart.
This was definitely mean more for a general reply to the comment. But in case OP is reading, I do want to thank them for their input because I feel like a lot of people share this albeit unpopular opinion.
you worded it very perfectly 👍
Wonderfully done video, i loved the solid tone throughout and i just had to put this little story in here about shipping.
When i was younger, i had a friend who was really into K-pop like, very very much into K-pop. She wore all the merch, sang it all the time, talked non-stop about it; She was your typical stan. It was kinda funny idk, she was a good person so i hung out with her at lunch, study hall, homeroom, etc. until one day she comes in all giddy, happier than usual so i asked her why. And she said (keep in mind this was in grade 7 so we had to be about 12/13 years old at the time) she was happy because "two male idols she liked were dating," and i was like ok, that's cute because i, myself, was a closeted gay man at the time and seeing representation in such a large industry really made me happy and so i asked her about and as she explained it to me it realised that i had it wrong. They were not actually dating, she was just shipping them so hard that she put the decision in her head that they were ACTUALLY irl dating. It was really gross when she started to get into how 'cute they were together' and just how overly sexualised she made the whole relationship. In retrospect they were just being homies, nothing out of the ordinary but she really, really made it seem like they were dating and it just rubbed me the wrong way.
Long story short, please PLEASE stop romantically shipping people who are not in relationships and ESPECIALLY do not gay-ship people who are not openly gay, it comes across as obsessive, creepy, and borderline disgusting.
I feel like I need to say that ateez is such a safe place for us lgbtq+ people as you said but really they are here’s few things that really amaze me about them.
Hongjoong the leader of ateez has said that lgbtq+ people inspire him TWICE. (other one of the conversations is at the end of this comment)
Yunho said love is love.
Hongjoong wears happy hippie rings.
Wooyoung talked with a fanboy about the fanboys crush and said that the fanboy should not give up on him.
Yeosang made a character named hehetmon and said it’s genderless.
One atiny (atiny is fandom of ateez) posted a pic with Yeosang and Wooyoung having bisexual flag on their cheeks (edited) for when ateez were replying to atinys tweets and Yeosang answered ”Have a good evening, my dear friend ATINY”
I believe Hongjoon reformed shoes and they said ”love matters”.
Hongjoong had rainbow hair on pride month.
And in 2020 when they were promoting their comeback many of their outfits/makeup had rainbows.
Yunho had a bracelet with trans flags colors on it.
And just a few + things about them, the 3 last are kinda funny:
San defended a woman named An San who was in the olympics that got hated by korean misogynist men.
They’re educated about things too.
You know how some companies will get man back up dancers for bg’s cause the choreos are ”harder” but ateez usually has girl back up dancers too!
Wooyoung said he can make a man fall for him too lol
Seonghwa said he liked to have crushes on seniors in high school (he went to an all boy school)
And I do need to say more about the boys themselfs there’s always easily over 8 minute videos of them themselfs being lil gay.
The conversation with hongjoong and the fan:
Fan: I have something to say so um
Hongjoong: yea
Fan: you know how you have a lot of lgbt fans?
Hongjoong: *nodded and smiled* mmm
Fan: so those fans they, they’re so thankful that you are just so amazing and like even when there’s hard times like just watching your videos or listening to music or even like looking at pictures of you makes us feell really comfortable and really safe and we love you so much
Hongjoong: *clapped like in thankful way*
Fan: thank you for always working so hard
Hongjoong: I’m really happy to meet you again I’m really happy to hear that um I don’t think to you guys i really i really i get a lot of energy and i get a lot of like yeah some inspiration from you guys and esspecially you you give me a lot of like um I can’t say how can I say. I’m really happy to meet you again someday let’s see you again in person
Ten from NCT straight up saying "love who you love. We're all human, just be yourself." Key from SHINee collaborating/fanboying over LGBT artists, plus he enjoyed wearing LGBT jewelry back in his early 20s and is all about androgynous fashion/creativity.
Key also performed Hair by Lady Gaga !!
Dreamcatcher's Yoohyeon has kinda come out when asked what type of man she likes, she said she likes hardworking *people* , then the interviewer said "Yoohyeon likes hardworking *men*" but she corrected that by saying "no I like hardworking people, ALL people", while smiling so brightly. What's sad about this is that if you watch that video you might not even realize that she said this because the subs are a vey wrong translation so you really get the feeling that that youtube channel tried to erase her statement...
However, on a happier note, Yooh (and the other Dreamcatcher members!) has multiple times shown respect and support to the LGBTQI+ community, in ways that can not be erased or misinterpreted
I am in no means trying to invalidate Yoohyeon.
The sad thing here is that this can still be fan service. It can still be said for fans to have an idea thats these idols are gay. Its so sad that I even have to say this. Basically every Wlw relationship is fetishized as you may/should know. Now, I know Dreamcatcher is known to be a 'gay' group. She might be gay, or it could be the dark reality that Dreamcatchers whole thing is being 'gay' for fame. I would say please don't assume that she is gay. (But also don't assume she's straight because it's not right to assume any sexuality/gender/sexual orientation.)
I don't know much about Dreamcatcher because I don't stan them. If they are actually truly supportive of lgbtq, then would 'they' (their management) cash in on the community/fan service? Possibly.
Again, im not trying to say that Yoohyeon isn't lgbtqia. She can be whatever she wants!
But, im just saying that until she fully comes out (or doesn't come out) we shouldn't assume anything.
Don’t say “kinda come out”, because this can be misunderstood by others. People may assume that she is. I don’t think we should ponder about other people’s sexualities since it’s so personal.
aren’t dreamcatcher queerfishers,,,
@@ongakira really? this is the first i've heard of it, i'd be happy if you could educate me because i really enjoy their music and if this is true it's absolutely heartbreaking :(
@@ongakira What makes you say that? I'm pretty sure they act the most genuine compared to other girl groups.
Most of the time when they do something "gay", they were either probably: joking playfully (with no bad intentions of course), acting out how they truly feel or forced to do it for a show. I am not assuming their sexualities nor am I not saying that the crew forces them to do something they don't want, but rather that they are very real. I also love that their company is so loving and down to earth with them, since they've been together for nearly 8 years now. Not to mention how close the girls are with eachother.
Like usually during vlives and behind the scenes they act authentic and are keeping it real with their feelings, actions and words.
I feel like out of all the girl groups i stan, Dreamcatcher is one of the more sincere and honest about how they act on and off-camera. Like they're not faking it at all, like they aren't these perfect dolls that don't do anything wrong or always have standards to be beautiful and flawless.
In my opinion they are definitely not perfect, cuz they are human.
But then again, I don't know them personally so i don't know for sure. However I definitely don't think that they're queerbating.
More than 10 years ago I discovered k-drama and then k-pop and then variety shows and then fanfics about k-pop. And the order matters.
In the variety shows they would address the shipping couples and push the members to talk about it.
There was a sort of mini drama with TVXQ where Jung Yunho and Kim Jaejoong nearlly kissed. This was in the height of YunJae. There was a series of interviews where the members were paired two by two according to their shipping couples. Their own company allowed this.
Over the years especially Kim Jaejoong would be reminded of this again and again. Why? Cause he was the "woman" in most of the fanfics.
And even to this day you can probably find people swearing up and down that Yunjae is real.
On the other hand, in SS501, Park Jung Min had a good friendship with one of the other members: Kim Hyung-jun. Not the one from Boys Over Flowers. And although there are moments when fans asked them to "bobo" = kiss, for the most part it is just an appreciation of their friendship. It's another vibe entirely.
But there are lots of times where the fanservice falls completly under queerbating or fetish or oversexualization or even abuse. Why should it be ok to have two young men kissing to please the fans but crucify them if they ever happened to really be gay? It's wrong.
And let's not forget that this comes from the same culture that hates on actors and idols who date, no matter how old they are.
thank you so much for mentioning the fetishization of gay men by straight girls in the kpop community. That’s part of the reason I left the skz and txt fandoms because it’s so disturbing and gross to me and I’m a gay man myself and I don’t participate in any shipping of real people in any fandom and it really ruins the media or whatever form of entertainment for us.
Why even join a fandom. Just listen to their music or do you just like them for there visuals. If it’s just for their visuals and not their music that’s weird af
@@BiggestMessiFan12334 What
@@ilovemen7182 your username explains it all. Weirdo