Thanks for highlighting the redundancy of "Any traffic advise." It is easy enough to simply announce your position and intentions. The other traffic will do the same in response automatically, no need to beg. Also, hearing nothing after asking for "advisement" doesn't mean there isn't aircraft out there without radios or on the wrong freq. While on the subject, unless you fly something that shoots things, nobody needs to know that you are 20 miles out either. End of rant. Good video.
I disagree to an extent. I use any traffic please advise when I don't hear or see any traffic as another check. This does two things for me. #1 It "may" get an aircraft I don't see or hear to talk in a radio environment that's clearly not clogged up at the moment. #2 It also opens up the radio communications to a "call and acknowledgement". You can argue this is excessive radio communication and I wouldn't fault you, but I'm also not going to have someone blindly make position reports all the way into hitting me. When there is minimal radio traffic I want some form of two way communication even if it's just two aircraft and one says "Aircraft 54321 short final RWY 21" and the other says something like "Aircraft 12345 5 mile straight in RWY 21, I'll be #2 behind you."
I hate the distance call. My plane is much faster than a Cessna so time is more valuable information. 20 miles at 200 knots and 10 miles at 100 knots is the same thing. Distance and time would be better.
We recently had a near accident when a plane came straight in for final on a non-towered airport where another aircraft was working the pattern. It's pretty easy to misjudge how far and fast a plane on the long straight in final is, leaving it to other traffic to decide whether to turn base or extend downwind. That's leaving too much life threatening decision-making to someone else in my opinion. It may not be a cardinal rule, but anytime I hear any traffic in the pattern, I prefer maneuvering overhead to join downwind and following the pattern in for the landing.
I hope this starts a trend for ending the ‘any traffic in the pattern please advise’ transmissions. How about we also stop making ‘last call’ declarations.
I fly a 737 into uncontrolled fields regularly, and we are positioned by ATC for non-standard pattern entries (straight in approaches) most of the time, and are handed off to advisory (CTAF) often as little as 3 minutes to touchdown. While we attempt to monitor CTAF on the second radio earlier than that, we are busy with checklists and talking to ATC, and are mostly unable to build a mental picture of the patern traffic until late in the game. I have definitely asked for traffic to advise, because if a little guy doing 50 kts ground speed called turning a 3 mile final just before I switched over, I'm going to run him over, and I want him to repeat himself before I see him flairing when I'm 1/2 a mile out.
It is not their responsibility to make extra calls for you. They might be busy too. It is your responsibility to monitor CTAF earlier. The FAA has spoken, please stop making those transmissions.
Great video. I see every one of these mistakes and improper procedures on a daily basis at PAAQ, the FAA has been informed of this year after year by multiple operators on the feild and does nothing, its almost like they are waiting for someone to die before theyll step in and try to change anything.
I've been using the "any traffic in the pattern, please advise" for over 30 years. I will continue to do so. I have found it to be a good tool to elicit input from radio averse aviators. Now if I could get folks to start using tail numbers again. Hearing many pilots using make or model only can be frustrating. Do these pilots not understand and piper and cessna made more than one airplane, and that more than one might be on frequency/in the pattern and the same time?
So you can do it wrong, but you don't like when they do it wrong? There are several reasons why "any traffic" is the wrong request to make. When I hear you I'll advise that you take your aircraft elsewhere.
I find it interesting that omitting tail numbers frustrates you and following FAA guidance on not using "traffic in the pattern, please advice" doesn't.
As a 31 year pilot, I completely disagree with not recommending “Any traffic in the area, please advise”. It gets everyone talking and able to coordinate a good flow of traffic, and helps the pilot new to the pattern to know who all is up and where they are. This is especially important if the aircraft has a different performance profile.
“Any traffic in the area, please advise” is seriously one of the stupidest radio calls to ever tarnish our airspace. There is no reason to get "everyone talking" and that is not the way to coordinate a good flow of traffic, that's not the way for a pilot new to the pattern to get familiar. That's just all wrong. My god. Thirty-one years is a long time to be doing things wrong.
Nice, but I disagree that there's never an appropriate time to ask for others in the pattern to speak up. If I'm inbound and I announce my intentions, then wait some time and hear nobody on the radio, I should not assume there is nobody in the pattern. What phraseology do you use to get people talking when they are in the pattern and being too quiet? What if I know there's somebody there from my ADSB-in but they aren't talking? Getting people talking even with the 'banned' phrase is safer than just calling out your positions and hoping for the best. I do agree the phrase is over-used, but 'never' is a strong word.
Agree. I have flown cargo and talk to cargo operators in Alaska who make quick turns, and only have the engine and radio on 20 seconds until they are ready to blast off at the runway, thus they ask people to speak up since they don't have situational awareness after 20 seconds. Any phrase asking for traffic to speak up before they block up the only taxiway off the runway is wise.
The "official" way is far too passive. You shouldn't be yapping about unrelated stuff, but opening an actual dialog with potentially conflicting aircraft makes good sense. If I'd been in the Baron or the Skyhawk, I would have started talking to the other guy to sort out who's going where since there was obviously a conflict.
If you want to know if someone is in the pattern, ask if someone is in the pattern. "Any traffic please advise" is not a request. It is a directive. I had someone do that one time and I said "don't crash". He replied "that's good advice". Well, I did what he told me to do. *"“Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."*
@@8literbeater I’m not just interested in traffic in the pattern. I’m interested in anyone who might fly into me. “Please state your position, direction of flight, and intentions”. Or I could just say “please advise.” Thankfully, most pilots aren’t dicks, so that works well.
ADS-B In/Out should just be required for all aircraft since no one at untowered airports can follow these rules. The tech is darn near good enough to even have it for skydivers.
I'm new to the radio lingo, so I haven't heard or thought of the wrong way to say these things, yet. I'd rather not have those memes stuck in my head. I need to hear the correct way of talking over the radio. In this video, I actually had an easier time understanding what was happening with the wrong method; I had a lot of difficulty keeping up with what was said using the correct method.
Comms need to be short for safety reasons as there could be many using a channel yet only one person can transmit clearly at a time. Practice how to say things in the order info was listed in this vid. Once you get used to it, talking on the radio will become much easier, and it will also make understanding easier since you will receive info in the order expected.
If you listen again, you'll realize that there were several omissions that can be life threatening. For example, in the first version, the Cessna doesn't say it's left cross or right cross (same for the downwind and base calls). Chattering is dangerous because planes might be converging and not getting through on the radio. Obviously, lining up on an uncontrolled runway and waiting is just weird. Getting used to the second version of the comms will allow you to get a whole lot more situational awareness with less time clogging up the frequency.
Asking "Any traffic in the area, please advise" is smart. I've had multiple times where I've been announcing my position as I come into a non-towered field and nobody is talking...even though I can see an aircraft in the pattern on ADS-B. When I ask "any traffic, please advise", those people respond the majority of the time. There is no downside to asking. In the video, there is an explanation for each thing was bad and what to do instead. There was no attempt to explain why asking is bad because the only reason is "If everyone is doing what they're supposed to be doing, you won't need to ask." In a perfect world, that's true. We do not live in a perfect world. The Baron should have talked to the Skyhawk to negotiate pattern entry. The Skyhawk took the initiative and announced he was extending downwind which was smart, but the Baron pilot should have opened that conversation earlier. Otherwise this was good.
"Any traffic, please advise" is not an ask, it is a directive. YOU are the one that needs to advise. YOU say where you are, and what your intentions are. You wanna show up and tell me to advise you? I'll tell you to leave. *"“Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."*
@@8literbeater which is why I self-announce my position and intentions (multiple times) as I approach AND ask “any traffic please advise.” I’ll also call out anyone I see on ADS-B who isn’t taking. “Looks like someone on left downside, are you on the frequency?”
Thanks for highlighting the redundancy of "Any traffic advise." It is easy enough to simply announce your position and intentions. The other traffic will do the same in response automatically, no need to beg. Also, hearing nothing after asking for "advisement" doesn't mean there isn't aircraft out there without radios or on the wrong freq. While on the subject, unless you fly something that shoots things, nobody needs to know that you are 20 miles out either. End of rant. Good video.
I cover 4 miles/minute and usually land straight in as directed by Center. I go from 20 miles, to a 4 mile final in 4 minutes.
I disagree to an extent. I use any traffic please advise when I don't hear or see any traffic as another check. This does two things for me.
#1 It "may" get an aircraft I don't see or hear to talk in a radio environment that's clearly not clogged up at the moment.
#2 It also opens up the radio communications to a "call and acknowledgement". You can argue this is excessive radio communication and I wouldn't fault you, but I'm also not going to have someone blindly make position reports all the way into hitting me.
When there is minimal radio traffic I want some form of two way communication even if it's just two aircraft and one says "Aircraft 54321 short final RWY 21" and the other says something like "Aircraft 12345 5 mile straight in RWY 21, I'll be #2 behind you."
I hate the distance call. My plane is much faster than a Cessna so time is more valuable information. 20 miles at 200 knots and 10 miles at 100 knots is the same thing. Distance and time would be better.
We recently had a near accident when a plane came straight in for final on a non-towered airport where another aircraft was working the pattern. It's pretty easy to misjudge how far and fast a plane on the long straight in final is, leaving it to other traffic to decide whether to turn base or extend downwind. That's leaving too much life threatening decision-making to someone else in my opinion.
It may not be a cardinal rule, but anytime I hear any traffic in the pattern, I prefer maneuvering overhead to join downwind and following the pattern in for the landing.
Excellent!
I hope this starts a trend for ending the ‘any traffic in the pattern please advise’ transmissions. How about we also stop making ‘last call’ declarations.
I fly a 737 into uncontrolled fields regularly, and we are positioned by ATC for non-standard pattern entries (straight in approaches) most of the time, and are handed off to advisory (CTAF) often as little as 3 minutes to touchdown. While we attempt to monitor CTAF on the second radio earlier than that, we are busy with checklists and talking to ATC, and are mostly unable to build a mental picture of the patern traffic until late in the game. I have definitely asked for traffic to advise, because if a little guy doing 50 kts ground speed called turning a 3 mile final just before I switched over, I'm going to run him over, and I want him to repeat himself before I see him flairing when I'm 1/2 a mile out.
It is not their responsibility to make extra calls for you. They might be busy too. It is your responsibility to monitor CTAF earlier. The FAA has spoken, please stop making those transmissions.
Great video. I see every one of these mistakes and improper procedures on a daily basis at PAAQ, the FAA has been informed of this year after year by multiple operators on the feild and does nothing, its almost like they are waiting for someone to die before theyll step in and try to change anything.
Too many Barons
I've been using the "any traffic in the pattern, please advise" for over 30 years. I will continue to do so. I have found it to be a good tool to elicit input from radio averse aviators. Now if I could get folks to start using tail numbers again. Hearing many pilots using make or model only can be frustrating. Do these pilots not understand and piper and cessna made more than one airplane, and that more than one might be on frequency/in the pattern and the same time?
So you can do it wrong, but you don't like when they do it wrong? There are several reasons why "any traffic" is the wrong request to make. When I hear you I'll advise that you take your aircraft elsewhere.
I find it interesting that omitting tail numbers frustrates you and following FAA guidance on not using "traffic in the pattern, please advice" doesn't.
As a 31 year pilot, I completely disagree with not recommending “Any traffic in the area, please advise”. It gets everyone talking and able to coordinate a good flow of traffic, and helps the pilot new to the pattern to know who all is up and where they are. This is especially important if the aircraft has a different performance profile.
If you follow everything else that’s in the AIM then you’ll see that is specifically in there not to that
“Any traffic in the area, please advise” is seriously one of the stupidest radio calls to ever tarnish our airspace. There is no reason to get "everyone talking" and that is not the way to coordinate a good flow of traffic, that's not the way for a pilot new to the pattern to get familiar. That's just all wrong. My god. Thirty-one years is a long time to be doing things wrong.
I don't disagree with your rationale, however, in the video, the FAA just directed you to stop using the "any traffic in the area" phrase.
Nice, but I disagree that there's never an appropriate time to ask for others in the pattern to speak up. If I'm inbound and I announce my intentions, then wait some time and hear nobody on the radio, I should not assume there is nobody in the pattern. What phraseology do you use to get people talking when they are in the pattern and being too quiet? What if I know there's somebody there from my ADSB-in but they aren't talking? Getting people talking even with the 'banned' phrase is safer than just calling out your positions and hoping for the best. I do agree the phrase is over-used, but 'never' is a strong word.
Agree. I have flown cargo and talk to cargo operators in Alaska who make quick turns, and only have the engine and radio on 20 seconds until they are ready to blast off at the runway, thus they ask people to speak up since they don't have situational awareness after 20 seconds. Any phrase asking for traffic to speak up before they block up the only taxiway off the runway is wise.
The "official" way is far too passive. You shouldn't be yapping about unrelated stuff, but opening an actual dialog with potentially conflicting aircraft makes good sense. If I'd been in the Baron or the Skyhawk, I would have started talking to the other guy to sort out who's going where since there was obviously a conflict.
If you want to know if someone is in the pattern, ask if someone is in the pattern. "Any traffic please advise" is not a request. It is a directive. I had someone do that one time and I said "don't crash". He replied "that's good advice". Well, I did what he told me to do.
*"“Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."*
@@8literbeater I’m not just interested in traffic in the pattern. I’m interested in anyone who might fly into me.
“Please state your position, direction of flight, and intentions”. Or I could just say “please advise.” Thankfully, most pilots aren’t dicks, so that works well.
ADS-B In/Out should just be required for all aircraft since no one at untowered airports can follow these rules. The tech is darn near good enough to even have it for skydivers.
I'm new to the radio lingo, so I haven't heard or thought of the wrong way to say these things, yet. I'd rather not have those memes stuck in my head. I need to hear the correct way of talking over the radio. In this video, I actually had an easier time understanding what was happening with the wrong method; I had a lot of difficulty keeping up with what was said using the correct method.
Comms need to be short for safety reasons as there could be many using a channel yet only one person can transmit clearly at a time. Practice how to say things in the order info was listed in this vid. Once you get used to it, talking on the radio will become much easier, and it will also make understanding easier since you will receive info in the order expected.
If you listen again, you'll realize that there were several omissions that can be life threatening. For example, in the first version, the Cessna doesn't say it's left cross or right cross (same for the downwind and base calls). Chattering is dangerous because planes might be converging and not getting through on the radio. Obviously, lining up on an uncontrolled runway and waiting is just weird.
Getting used to the second version of the comms will allow you to get a whole lot more situational awareness with less time clogging up the frequency.
You didn't have an understanding of what was happening the wrong way because tons of info was left out.
Asking "Any traffic in the area, please advise" is smart. I've had multiple times where I've been announcing my position as I come into a non-towered field and nobody is talking...even though I can see an aircraft in the pattern on ADS-B. When I ask "any traffic, please advise", those people respond the majority of the time. There is no downside to asking. In the video, there is an explanation for each thing was bad and what to do instead. There was no attempt to explain why asking is bad because the only reason is "If everyone is doing what they're supposed to be doing, you won't need to ask." In a perfect world, that's true. We do not live in a perfect world. The Baron should have talked to the Skyhawk to negotiate pattern entry. The Skyhawk took the initiative and announced he was extending downwind which was smart, but the Baron pilot should have opened that conversation earlier. Otherwise this was good.
But it is incorrect, unnecessary, and unprofessional to say that
@@jasonthomas9364 Cool. I'll keep doing it. I've developed an irrational desire to not fly into other airplanes. I'm weird that way.
@@jasonthomas9364 it's safer than having a mid air because someone wasn't paying attention and never spoke up.
"Any traffic, please advise" is not an ask, it is a directive. YOU are the one that needs to advise. YOU say where you are, and what your intentions are. You wanna show up and tell me to advise you? I'll tell you to leave.
*"“Traffic in the area, please advise” is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."*
@@8literbeater which is why I self-announce my position and intentions (multiple times) as I approach AND ask “any traffic please advise.”
I’ll also call out anyone I see on ADS-B who isn’t taking. “Looks like someone on left downside, are you on the frequency?”
Is flying complex? If so then there’s no such thing as best practice. See Cynefin.