I can't believe my sponsor said this... I have to prove them wrong!
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2023
- I received an email from a sponsor that was SO irresponsibly incorrect that I HAD to address it...
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I feel sorry for the trainee of the company who responded to Jay's request. 🤣
Exactly
I work for a global leader in Tech and we had people working for us making bullshit statements which takes us senior engineers month to clean up. It comes down to one thing... you get what you pay for. If you outsource your support you may get that kind of "Staff"
@@NapFloridianyou also forget humans make mistakes
@r3mus47 It's always a mistake to yap about matter you're not fully familiar with. Marketing people even do it for a living. It doesn't happen often that you're publicly called out for it.
@@stephenlamley541 nah fr tho
When it comes to integrity vs. pleasing sponsors, Jay has 0 chill, and I seriously respect that.
meh just use liquid metal on the components if temps matter that much for you🤣🤣
@@SaraMorgan-ym6ue
M'kay. So you want to cover your RAM in Conductonaut or what? The VRM too?
The fact that Jay was ready to accept he was wrong, if the test would have showed otherwise, shows his confidence. Thank you for honest reviews and not being afraid to push sponsors.
or he record the test first then the intro (?)
@@KcinicKGX I think he has done this long enough that he knew exactly what the result would be. He did the video because he felt someone treated him like an idiot. Don't blame him
I love how Jay isn’t afraid to put it straight. It doesn’t matter who you are, or how much money/product a company is giving him. He’s not afraid to call someone out. He truly is for the people. Love ya man!
@@user-xh8ot6xm5wand yet this whole video that generated clicks for him also helps us while calling out how a manufacturer was/is wrong.
@@user-xh8ot6xm5w who hurt you?
Let’s just say this, origin PCs a rip off…. And on the component list of the system jay was testing was a Samsung 870. 2tb QVO ssd…. Do you know how slow a qlc ssd gets after sac cache is spent? 5mb writes….. a origin pc is 4-5 grand, they could have filled all nvme slots with good quality nvme drives if they cared….
@@wiseanime2875if you haven't seen the writing on the way with Jay I don't think there is any saving you you are right where you belong or over on LTT he's just as bad
Missed the 4060 videos huh?
17:19
What Jay has actually proved is in this configuration having fans as intake keeps the motherboard and internal components that aren't actively cooled by the loop, cooler.
Which is why he said bringing fresh air into the system will help the internal components at 2:00 - 3:40
He proved the opossite. The intermal case temperature is hotter therefore the components not cooled by the water are hotter because the delta between the competent and the internal would be less and therefore less heat can be trsnsferred.
I love the way you hold sponsors accountable, it's extremely refreshing and gives your content a credibility that most lack.
Something Jay didn't touch on is how much more the airflow increased on the exhaust in the "balanced" config by not having the fans fight so much static pressure.
In the first test airflow was only 12CFM, and it over doubled to 25cfm once the fans were helping each other instead of fighting each other.
This likely also reduced noise by reducing turbulence caused by said fans fighting each other.
And the bestest part is dumping warm air into the case causes it to absorb any moisture brought inside through any way other than through radiator. Another big bonus of the JTC's approach...
or.... his new intake fans were too powerful / he overshot when compensating for the resistance caused by the disabled stock fans.
If he's neither using the same fans nor doing a noise-normalized trial it's hard to tell if his results are just from more RPM, though I get it that in this scenario it'd be difficult to control for those things.
@@Wolf480pl nah this makes perfect sence.
lets refer to air with any form on heat in it as dirty air. what they are saying is pushing dirty air from the radiator in to the system is not good, so only exhausts....problem with that is the only place to grab air is on the opposite sides of the case (back and bottom) so the air gets pulled over warm components creating dirty air rather then fresh air. the benefit is the ambient air in the case is lower but the radiators get only dirty air so the true hot heads in the system (CPU and GPU) are getting cooled with dirty air. apart from that the fan's are all pulling on each other creating resistance/load for each other they are not fed any air they all have to feed themselves from where ever they can pull it.
the...optimal approach (yes I'm helle biased this default loadout is dumb) is to feed fresh air in to the radiators (those cool the water which cool the cpu/gpu which are the most temperature sensitive components) also by adding an actual intake forcing air in to the case the exhausts's will actually be fed air and there for run faster/move more air. wile this air (if inake is only through a radiator) might be dirty because it is fed it moves through the system much faster (not just by RPM but by less resistence/less canibalism by other exhausts) getting deeper in components and carrying even more heat away from the non directly cooled components.
I'm fairly certain due to the canibalism going on in this system he could have run his intake's at LOW and the CFM on the exhaust would have still seen a big increase...perfect world would probably be utilize the front and side as intake and the top as exhaust creating positive pressure inside the system (pushing air out of any openings as opposed to sucking unfiltered dusty air through them) feeding the exhaust with both dirty and fresh air having the best of both worlds with quite literally none of the con's...other then it's really really really efficient at pushing the air out of the case (and in to your room)
@@anub1s15
> lets refer to air with any form on heat in it as dirty air
Strictly speaking, that'd make all air dirty, unless its temperature is 0 Kelvins, which is too cold for any human, computer, or fan to function in.
I get that this isn't what you meant, you just meant "air hotter than ambient" but the key here is that this isn't a binary thing. How hot would air need to be to be considered "dirty"? 1 degree over ambient? 5? 10?
An ideal setup would be to hang your radiators outside the case in such a way that the air flowing through them never enters the case. And then have separate case fans blowing into the case to cool the VRM and all the other misc components that don't have a water block. It'd be kinda impractical tho.
Aside from that, even with a bad airflow setup you can just crank the RPM up, which will usually result in more cfm and lower temps - possibly lower than with a better setup - at the cost of noise.
It intuitively makes sense that Jay's balanced setup would be more effective - have higher cfm because fans aren't fighting, lower water temps because rads get fresh air, and higher interior (and VRM) temps because the interior is downstream of rads - all at similar or lower noise level. But that's not what he demonstrated in the experiment. He only demonstrated that with enough RPM he's getting better temps.
To sum up:
- Jay's setup makes sense, intuitively it should be more efficient
- he proved this setup can get lower temps with enough rpm
- almost every setup, no matter how good or bad, can get lower temps with enough rpm
- he didn't actually prove that his setup can get lower temps with same/lower rpm or noise
- it probably can but there isn't clear evidence
@@Wolf480pl not that hard litterally any air before passing over a heatsource in your PC is about as clean as you can get it what is air with all energy stripped from it in a scientific book is not what is in my room............
any air that has passed over a heatsource and in therefore above ambient is "dirty" can't believe that's a hard concept but here we are.
really not that hard unless you make it out to be hard to grasp.
and also if 3 fans in the correct spot at "high RPM" can create a Massive temp drop in cpu/gpu and RAM!!!! (note the high RPM fan's are BESIDE the RAM not aimed at it and it is outside of the water loop, the ram temp is pure increased flowthrough) is that alone not indication that the original setup is crap?
you either understand what's happening here and know the RPM has actually less to do with it then you seem to make it out or you don't i guess.
also still doesn't address the end user having to deal with a setup that literally pulls dust in to the system through any hole or crack lacking a filter (path of least obstruction always wins).
The difference in dust accumulation is enough for me to always use positive pressure, even if it means dealing with higher temperatures. I don't notice a difference in temps, but the dust difference has been tested and proven over the years, both through multiple personal tests and by multiple reviewers.
This comment comes from someone who has been in PCs alot
@@joshuaclark3848 No, it comes from someone with a dusty home. I let me robot vacuum run once a day. When I clean my PC after around 3-4 months there are only some tiny particles in the rads. The difference in the dust build up by negative or positive pressure doesn't really matter if you keep your home clean.
Jay went the extra mile to tell them “I told you so” 😂😂 love it.
THAT COMMENT WAS GOLD. 😂😂😂👏👏👏👏
So glad to see Jay agrees to giving his team more space, they're such a good team and offer the same quality of work as Jay gives. ❤
Would be interesting to see what effect an additional rear exhaust fan would have.
I don't think I've seen you use one, but adding a smoke source to your tests can help illustrate the "air may be splashing around" thought you had. I use them to check for air flow leaks, and they're quite effective and easy to use. Just my 2 cents :)
Jay did when he was showing fan configuration in a recent video, but he used Incense (same kind of effect)
@@frank.bullitt I must have missed that one, but I wouldn't use incense just because of particulates in the smoke. I know, it's a very small amount, but they can still get in the system.... Would still like to see him use a real smoke source though.
@@That_guy_Pipall smoke has particles in it, that's what smoke is a cloud of floating particles.different smoke sources would probably have a difference in how much these particles are deposited though.
Either way blowing a few small puffs of smoke trough a PC won't hurt it.
Only two min into the video and I want to preface this as an HVAC technician. Condensers pull air in thru the coil to cool the coil then exhaust thru the top. Your evaporator inside, pulls air thru the evap to condition the air then distributes it through the building or home.
I’m with you Jay, always pull fresh air in thru radiator then exhaust out back or where rad isn’t. The air in your home will always be cooler than the air inside the case therefore cooling your component better. And as long as your exhausting properly, you’ll be fine. And if anything, using the air inside the PC is hotter which is I’ll not cool your component as well therefore killing the component sooner.
Bottom line, always pull fresh air from the room thru the rad and exhaust somewhere else. I’m with Jay on this.
I trust hvac tech the most on this one jay
Do you have an opinion on whether the fans should push versus pull through the radiator, or does that not matter? My case is different from Jay's, looks like his outside air is pushing thru, mine has to pull thru
Mostly agree but my air handler pulls return air from the house and blows through the evaporator. It does not pull air through the evaporator. I imagine it would be odd for the blower fan to be positioned where it has to pull air through the evaporator coil. I guess it could happen though.
@@ditto_75 some big AC units do have the rads in a V, and the fans pull the air out the middle of the V... I don't really see them pushing down. (I could be wrong, as I am not HVAC tech... ).
For a case, I prefer as many, or more intake fans to exhaust fans at any time, anyways. My case used an Lian Li O11d XL, with fans pulling from the bottom rad cooler outside air, and pushing into the top rad to exhaust out. Side fans pull in fresh air, and back pushes out. It does mean I have 2 more fans as intake to the exhaust...
Yep, same with cars, they pull fresh air through the radiator with either a push or pull fan. If you were parked, with the engine running, and your fan was set to exhaust, your engine would boil over in under an hour. Because your just pushing hot air into your radiator.
Jay's version of morse code sounds a lot like mario when he grabs the star power up.
THATS What it was!
How else would a gamer do morse code?
@@nunya3163 UP UP DOWN DOWN LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT B A
is also an acceptable answer
@@ilovefunnyamv2ndyou forgot START at the end
Jay, you are correct and now you have proven that. I knew what the results would say because we figured this out 20 years ago when we started building in chassis that had more then 1 fan.. "SPONSOR" when you have a new idea always ask yourself "why haven't anyone done this before" because most of the time they have and it didn't work any better!!
I'm with you on this. If you've got cooler air pushing into the system it's going to work more efficiently at cooling the loop which will keep the primary system components cooler, and the internal temperature of the chassis will stay lower, while the loop won't significantly heat the chassis because it will stay cooler. It's likely only a matter of degrees though. The only problem you might run into is if Ambient is high, but that's going to be a problem anyway
Your ability to give such precise information and be funny while doing it never ceases to amaze me lol
yea Jayz the King of PC!
I saw a similar video from Jay a few weeks ago about fan airflow, which made me decide to change my setup (O11D-XL) from top-rad to side-rad. I currently have 9 fans as intake (rad has 6 in push-pull) and 4 as exhaust to make a positive pressure setup (I have 4 huskies, dust is a thing in my home) and I'll be a monkey's uncle, Jay was right. My temps while gaming decreased by a minimum of 5c. CPU and GPU would hover around 68-70c before, now they sit comfortable around 60-62 under the same gaming load.
You're awesome, Jay!
With liquid cooling (even with manually cutting my own tubes years ago for fitting) for the last 25 years or so, I have always had an intake fan to go with the exhaust fans for exactly the reason Jay does here: Physics. It's nice to use tools to measure and prove it, so great job on that, Jay.
Love it - I always try to do neutral pressure. It would of been interesting to see origins temperatures with the fan filter on as delivered and with the case side on (restricting the exhaust even more). Love the videos Jay
It's interesting how the tech community goes to clear up things with their sponsors. I don't know what happened but I'm glad this is happening. (maybe it's also just me lol)
Shoutout for Jay and all the rest of the tech channels out there doing this!
Nice one Jay. Personally I am for positive pressure as that ensures that you have less dust in the system.
Won't you have the same dust, just not in crooks and crannies?
@@bootchoo96Not necessarily. It depends on how or if your intake air is filtered. A good dust filter with appropriate static pressure fans to overcome the extra resistance should be relatively dust free.
And it's pretty easy to clean most filters compared to vacuuming a case.
@@drahkas8526 I literally forgot about filters, my argument is invalid lol
Says, who? It's up in the air (pun not intended). Always aiming for the neutral zone of Intake=Exhaust pressure, is advisable and just seems more logical.
So No, not especially.
As am I. 6 months in and still no considerable dust build up. Also running 6 intake fans. 3 are on the radiator and my exhaust is a Noctual industrial 3000rpm fan and it kicks ass. Never have seen my ram go over 49c and that's with their 7200xmp profile
My computer guy (an electrical engineer from China and has owned his own pc store here in Canada for 20 years) put the fans inward as you recommend. I thought he messed up because I automatically thought hot air out. He says the same thing. You prefer as much fresh air inside as possible. Your video that explains air flow is fantastic. I suggest anyone who has not seen it, to do so.
Love this kind of stuff. I was worried about my personal rig exhausting air through my AIO in the top due to pushing warmer internal air out but with my 3 intake fans on the front pushing cold air in constantly it always feels cool coming out the top. Great stuff!
Wasn't this tested a decade ago by Linus & Luke in all the different in/out fan configurations?
If I remember correctly, it was nominal differences between various configurations, just a degree or two.
It was more important to have more intake fans to reduce dust buildup coming in from the cracks.
Yeah, i remember watching that exact video. You are right, the conclusion was to run a somewhat positive pressure as to keep dust out.
That was to test dust build up. This is about temperatures inside the case. The claim Jay defeated is that the inside of the case would be too hot.
@@TheDJ3520 but they also monitored temps.
@@blodhthringa They had an air cooled system. The temps won't be affected to the same degree as a water cooled system, unless somehow the coolers were directly against intake or exhaust fans, like a radiator is.
I would take Jayz words for granted a thousand times before any from a computer "company". 😊
I hate to be that guy ,but "lets test the hypothesis" not the theory. Theory is something already proven. I am on Jays side of course but we talk about science,so .... Hypothesis. 😊
@@blackeyeoleTheories haven't been proven, that's why they're still theories
This is a common misconception, but in simple terms: a hypothesis is developed before research, whilst a theory is substantiated by data but is still not considered fact or a proven phenomenon. The reason for which is because a number of conflicting theories can be substantiated by data at any one time. A common example that I myself as a biologist refer back to is the concept of evolution and conflicting social-darwinistic vs neo-darwinistic theories
@@obscuretenet Evolution is a theory though??? It has not been proven. (In fact there's much more proof against evolution than for it, but we don't talk about that.)
@@jamesjoslin1737 well the theory of relativity is proven . That is a science community issue. Many of them using the term theory as all we think of it ,but in reality a theory in science terminology is something that is proven by data . I am quoting here "In everyday use, the word "theory" often means an untested hunch, or a guess without supporting evidence.
But for scientists, a theory has nearly the opposite meaning. A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts. "
@@obscuretenetgravity isnt a theory😂 that's what it is called that holds you down to said furface. Some planets have more gravity than outhers where some have much less. Its definitely not your mom or dad that keeping grounded to tge ground and preventing you from floating off when you jump 😂 what prevents that is the ammount of gravity.
I think the most fair way to test it would have been to unplug the stock fans for both tests, then flip the new fans back and forth and use them the whole time.
Yooo nice profile picture
@@Boblo Lmao yours is great too
Jay good on you man for standing up for what you know is right, we need more IT dudes like you, most others would fold if there sponsor sent an email like that ,150% to you and what you do .Can't wait for the next one, keep it up!
Thank you for this! I can't tell you how many arguments I've had with people on Reddit about this when I've suggested mounting fans as INTAKE on the radiator. Fact is that pulling cooler ambient air into the radiator is more efficient then exhausting heat out. Even in Corsair' s AIO manuals recommend mounting fans as intake. And people who argued with me have said the same thing that was said to you, about "dumping heat into the system". The reality is, that a rear exhaust fan will pull heat out coming from the rad, and additionally, positive pressure is not static, so it will push air and heat out of the case. Whereas negative pressure creates a vacuum that sucks in air (and dust) into the case through any vent and crack of the case, essentially the opposite of what positive pressure will do.
And you even alluded to it, but negative pressure could/would in some/most cases even pull in the expelled warm air back into the case, thus making it worse.
yea, 99.9% of the heat produced is gonna be going to the rads. barely any comes off the ram or chips on the motherboard. I guess they are kinda right if only your cpu/gpu is watercooled. Either way it probably makes only a degree or two of difference
Jay, thank you for being a champion of the commonfolk to stand up to companies with their BS practices and proving them wrong.
I wouldn't call it a BS practice, they just were wrong in their supposition. All intake or all outtake is likely going to be wrong. For instance with all forced air outtake you'd have to have a lot of passive intake area to make up for it so it's better to have some forced air intake to match your forced air outtake
Thank you so much for this video! I'm planning my first custom loop and was wondering whether intake through a rad was going to hurt my system. I don't want any hint of negative pressure as I live near an asphalt mixing company. Not RIGHT next to it, it's a few hundred metres away but we still notice the dust and I certainly don't want it in my PC!
So thanks to this video, I now know that it's completely fine to have intake through rads for a positive pressure situation, and I can plan to install filters at the right spots! Thanks guys!
Subscribed* The passion and honesty in this video is such a beautiful thing.
I love this kind of stuff. I mean testing if the marketing BS is actually true. 😂👍👍
I would have liked to see what the temperature changes would be if you had just added the single intake fan to the back of the case.
This is the way
"We're going to test that" - nice shout out to Todd @ Project Farm :)
Even with mid size cases with an aio I've seen 8-10° lower CPU temps mounting the rad in the front with intake vs in the roof as exhaust. This does however add a few degrees to most internal components because I had fans in the front blowing fresh air into the case with the rad on top. So really depends on the setup when deciding how to set it up.
The components that were tracked in this are connected to the water cooling loop, I think when they said "Internal components" they mean the Motherboard components (VRMs), RAM in the Motherboard (not on the GPU as this has thermal pads on the GPU block) and so on, these temperatures would help tell a better story as you show the internal temperature did rise but the top exhaust was cooler.
I side with you, I would run intake instead of all exhaust so I know where the air would be pulled from so it is filtered. I personally run a air coolers so I have a 3x140 intake (from the front on a "Fractal Design Meshify S2") and 2x140 exhaust (one on the rear and one on the top rear).
Great video as always, keep up the great work.
VRM temps can indeed be affected. On an average system a radiator exhaust can heat up the throughflow of air by 10 centigrades or more. That will definitely heat up a VRM as well if subjected to this sort of airflow.
You did not even mention (as you did in the previous video) that in your configuration you can actually prevent all the dust from getting sucked into the pc and staying there. All things being equal, that is a good enough reason for the neutral pressure setup (with filters on the intake).
both rads blowing out means all the dust comes in the cracks or wherever the air can get in and clogging up the rads, slowly but surely, over time. That is just a pain and without a more difficult cleaning practice will lead to early component failure due to high temps/ insufficient airflow.
Thank you for this, have been running my 360 Aio with push/pull forever and have never had an issue.
If you have filters on intake then you should have a slight positive pressure as it will help keep anything that gets stuck in the filter out since positive pressure will push air out of cracks. Also its easier to control the air flow with a slight positive pressure as air escaping through gaps matter less.
I've done push/pull fan configurations on my builds for 20 years. Never had a component heat issue and have similar results as yourself with passive components. Great work Jay!
Hi, if you don't mind me asking, do you have any opinion on whether it matters to have fans inside vs outside the case? Asking because my case has a dust cover that forces the fans inside due to clearance, so I would be pulling fresh air thru the rad in to the case (this is my first build and first AIO and I've been exhausting out the top by pushing the warm case air thru the rad)
I love these vidoes... debunk and preserve the ego haha. No, seriously, videos like this is why I trust you all at JTC. Even sponsors aren't going to get it easy and will have the same treatment as everyone else. You guys rock ❤
Great quote: Opinion doesnt hold weight in science, fact does.
comprehensive. loved it.
Jay turned into gamers nexus today. I like it.
This is why CREDIBILITY is key! And this is why we love “some” of our CCs! Well done mate. Cheers
jay, i've been watching you from the early early days. your information got me to push an 8350 vischera core to 5.2 ghz all core on liquid and it ran that way all day nonstop for years. front rad intake with push pull 6 fans, top and rear exhaust, bottom and front intake. has been this way for years, will never change this. it works. my new pc's setup the same way even without liquid this generation, i still felt having cooler air pulling in and over the thermal stack and out the back and rear just made the most sense.
Love it.. I have mine the same way.. it just seems obvious to bring cooler air into the case, no matter what!! I run a Kraken Z73! right now as I type its at 33 degrees C for the CPU. great video Jay.
If you aren't going to remove the internal fans to give your other fans best airflow, you should mount the other fans before you do the 'first test' so the default fans are similarly challenged.
its better to have slight positive pressure than it is to have negative pressure because of dust accumulation over time. I've learned this from your older vids and linus/lukes fan configuration experiment.
It is good that you set them straight Jay.
Thanks for the video. I have a system with top and bottom radiators. Before this video I had all the fans exhausting. I just switched the bottom two fans to intake and my temps are down by 5 deg C.
Whoever from Origin sent that message has literally never touched a computer in their entire life. I guarantee it.
lmao getting that Verge PC build vibes 😂"...Intel CPU, yes we've got it!"
i love when Jay makes a video out of spite lol
ego
Hey Jay I really enjoyed this video. I too have had many occasions of explaining proper fan balancing to achieve ideal temps when people ask me why they see thermal throttling and such. The bottom line is that the heat is going to be there because of the components, and in order to cool that heat you cool what absorbs it with air cooler than than the heat lol. I love that you surrendered your concrete findings to say "hey, it isnt a big enough difference to harm anything either way, its just measurable." Having used the Hyte Y60 for several builds and assisting at least a dozen others I too came to the conclusion that positive flow is best with proper exhausting, and it varies from one case to another and one build to another. I think your channel is still one of my favorites because you have an "every man" approach.
thank you for the 4k quality, enjoy that new editing rig Phil
In today's days a funny but always professional youtuber is somehow hard to find, and Jayz never fails to give us precise and trustworthy information while keeping us smiling, thanks for your videos Jayz
Also, that cpu runs cooler than some houses in the world rn, we need to watercool the world lmao
Before killing me, I meant GPU not CPU ok?
@@ninja47yt64 In my system, my cpu raises the coolant temp more than my GPU, even under load...
That's why I said before killing me I meant GPU not CPU
I love these types of videos where you call people/companies out but do it in a way that isn't disrespectful or petty & provides actual concrete data/evidence. One of the big reasons this channel is among my top favorites.
My 2 rads are mounted on the back outside of my custom standing acrylic tube case. Getting rid of these 2 issues of a in or out. With a 10" exhaust fan at the top as a chimney stye free flow open bottom. 😉👍👍
Major Dad "not angry, just disappointed, and here's why" energy with this one 😆 great video as per!
I think measuring overall air pressure inside the case would be a useful metric when trying to optimize airflow. I know a lot of the cases designed for overclocking used to come with specs for it as too much intake would actually stifle the cooling (not enough airflow over components), and of course, too much exhaust, particularly active exhaust fans, would do the same (negative pressure). This was all before water cooling started to pick up in popularity.
It's not a very significant factor because it doesn't change significantly enough.
You should always run a positive pressure when possible, purely for dust filtering.
Balanced is best, leaning slightly towards positive
Positive pressure used to be a big deal when we had floppy drives and optical drives that didn't like dust. Not really a big deal now. The biggest problem I see these days is intakes on the bottom of the case that get plugged up fast even in really clean houses.
I have a system setup with 4 140mm intakes and 2 120mm exhaust doing push/pull on an AiO. I tried other configs but this works best for my case.
Well done on the science experiment! I learned a great deal!
they basically laid the contents of your next video right into the palm of your hands. thing with feeling like someone is "ego tripping" is that I have always thought that there was a thin line between "ego" and "confidence". if someone sees a confident person they just say "check your fkn ego mayne", but in reality it is perfectly ok to flex on your capabilities you have retained over the course of your life, ESPECIALLY when you have proven these things to us here on youtube for as long as i can remember, as well as proven it to yourself. easy win and i'm glad you guys put up a video so fast in response!
Personally I would have done the temps in Kelvin, just to bug Steve at Gamers Nexus as I believe he likes to see temp numbers in that format. But I greatly appreciate the work you do in educating us the masses. Have fun at LTX 2023.
Steve's issue with temp numbers isn't specifically Kelvin, it's when vendors try to make percentage claims in regards to temperatures in C or F.
When you use a measurement with an arbitrary 0-point and scale like Fahrenheit or Celsius, you can't use a percentage reference number. "Temps reduced from 20'c to 10'c" is not really a 50% improvement. Just changing your scale to F it make that 68 to 50, a 26% improvement. If you want to use a pure scaling percentile for temps, you have to use Kelvin since it has a true 0 base point on the scale. So anytime you see someone use a "%" statement in regards to temperature, your BS meter should be going hard.
@@blackraenAnd while Steve's right, that's one of his more pedantic rants. Celsius is the measurement standard adopted by the PC community. If Steve only cares about the actual difference in thermal energy present in a PC component when comparing a new cooling solution to an old one, then I think he's one of the few who do. The vast majority of people care about what numbers HWMonitor reports.
@@dembro27 Lol you obviously didn't read or understand. Using Celsius to talk about temperatures is fine, Steve does that, everyone does that. Use HWMon or whatever.
The problem is when marketing people try to use 'percentage difference' claims for temperatures. Like I explained, you cannot use %+/- statements with Celsius or Fahrenheit, that's not how it works.
@@blackraen Let me explain myself again since I "obviously didn't read or understand".
1) Celsius is the conventional standard when discussing PC temperatures.
2) Celsius is measured in degrees, expressed as a number.
3) Numbers can be compared against each other in the form of percentages.
4) 20°C to 10°C is a 50% reduction.
No, that's not a 50% reduction in the actual thermal energy present in the PC component you're measuring. But it's a 50% reduction in the thing that actually matters to most people: what they see in HWMonitor. Like most marketing, it's a bit misleading, yes, but not something that should be a cause for concern IMO. What's much more important is testing that extraordinary claim of a 10°C drop.
@@dembro27 The problem is how misleading the marketing is. Percentages mean nothing when it comes to coolers. A 100W cooler might be "154% better", but it's still going to thermal throttle any mid-high-end CPU.
Thank you JayZTwoCents you are awesome
Thank you Jay. That was a nice demonstration and a refutation of BULL... hockey....
Cheers.
I have 3 intake fans on the front, 1 exhaust fan (140mm) on the back, and a Strix LC II 360 AIO up top with 3 more exhaust fans. I did this to keep the Ram/M.2 NVME SSD's and Mobo cooler and have had awesome results. I also have a 3 fan Strix 4080 OC kicking air around and nothing really goes above 60C while gaming, 30-35C idle. Super impressed.
You can have more exhaust. One of the things Jay didn't mention is the physics of air flow.
A good rule is 1 in 1 out. However 1 in 1.5 out won't harm your system either, especially if you keep to air flow physics. You just don't want competing air flow.
For instance even if you did 1 for 1 but had say intake and exhaust mix near the front of the case you'd choke out your parts.
that has nothing to do with what Jay did in the video lol. he pulled air from outside through a hot radiator, you pull cold air from outside straight into the case. did you even watch the video or just dont get the point? lmao
Just playing devils advocate a little bit: When you tested with your own fans as top intake the air flow rate increased significantly (from ~25 CFM up to ~40 CFM?), so part of the lowered GPU temperatures are probably just because you are pushing more air through the radiators, and therefore you are cooling your loop more effectively. Also, if you are distributing the same power into more airflow, the delta temperature of the air itself will be lower.
I'm still entirely sure that you are right about the setup, and that you would never ever damage anything by using intake.
But scientific rigor would have proposed both tests to be performed with the same fans.
airflow actually went down with the intake because the old fans were still connected to the rad and the airspeed from the intake fans will go down because it's having to spin a fan that's not plugged in. Yes ideally you wanna keep the same fans and just flip them to do A/B test but you'd have to completely disassemble the loop and that's really not necessary cuz all exhaust makes no sense when you've built PCs for a long time. The dust problem alone makes it not worth it.
Isnt that because the sensor now is over the (new) fans, while before was after the rad?
But the caveat is that I believe he ran the external fans at a higher RPM than the internal ones to compensate for the higher resistance of the internal idle fans. He presumed that would make it a 1 to 1 comparison, but really that was just an unscientific estimation. It is possible the higher external fan speed could have been made up the difference plus some, which is why he saw his internal component temps go down. We’ll never know this for sure unless a true A/B test is done. (Maybe on a different set up since the custom loop is hard to work around.)
I would have also like to see the effect at lower fan speeds as well, as I try to run my fans a low as possible with out losing too much performance for a close to as silent as possible experience.
I agree the same fans should have been used. Those corsair fans have horrendous static pressure and I wouldn't be surprised if the lian li fans just outperformed the corsair fans...even with them obstructing the airflow
The best way I could see for him to redo this test in a more scientific way would be to do all tests with the internal rad. Fans unplugged and put a piece of tape or something on them to make sure that they will not start spinning with the airflow. Ten test with the Lian-Li fan with same speed as intake and then turn the fans and test again. The air restrictions caused by the internal fans would have stayed the same on both tests that way.
Also it would be better to also look at passively cooled components temps, since the air inside the case get higher, it might affect the temperature of the SSD, chipsets or system memory. He only look at the CPU, GPU and video memory temp.
Yeah I'm with Jay on this, I've run intake on 2 of my 3 360mm rads on my 011D (bottom & side intake, top exhaust), and it's been great IMO
The sounds Jay did at the start of the video, remembered me of Mario's music when you got the star! LOL!
How has Origin operated this long thinking that having intake fans would make products more prone to failure? At the prices they charge, this level of ignorance is kinda fucking shocking
Here is how I always understood it.
If you can only have one single fan, that fan should be exhaust. If you have room for more fans then it doesn't really matter as long as there are some intake and some exhaust. Balancing is likely the best idea like Jay said.
I think if you have one single fan intake is better because its pulling fresh air. Either way it doesn't really matter
@@squidwardo7074 yeah, 1 fan only? intake ... than the heat rise up
If you have 1 fan, it should be an intake and filtered fan.
Hahaha! Loved this episode of 'Science with Jay'. Keep 'em coming guys!
Thank you for the video and proof, I've always thought that zero to positive pressure is the way to go.
Future video idea, what difference (if any) would it make if the rad was mounted to the outside of the case, therefore no longer impacting internal ambient temps?
@7:28 : Glass is not hard to film through. You need a circular polarizer on your lens to cut down on the glare from the glass.
Hope this helps!
I went four months sober and then relapsed hard this month. Drank and abused coke again. I’ve been clean for 3 days and I’m praying that I can fight these demons. Thank you Theo and Jordan for this talk.
Whose Theo and jordan?
Bro what the hell lmfao are you watching a Jordan Peterson and Theo Von vid and commented on the wrong tab kek
I always do tests like this when I setup new rig but always prefer slightly positive pressure intake from above vrm heat sinks & front then exhaust out the back bottom/PSU I do ram overclocking so also use a ram fan
Jay, you are the TRUTH.
Fact: pushing air onto the component you are trying to cool is way more efficient. Thank you for doing this video Guys!
Excited for there response. I’d love to see their “test” to see how they came to their conclusion
I'm running what is basically an open testbench case with some fans on the front for RGB aesthetic goodness, but my previous case shipped with three fans, all intake on the front. I took out the middle one and put it on the back as an exhaust to help air move through.
This is just gold
As a system builder for many years my experience is that as a general rule of thumb its best practice to aim at a slight overpressure (more in than out) for almost any given system. This regardless on if there is a rad behind the intake or not (on a positive side the component the rad is cooling normally drops a few degrees if its cooled directly with fresh air coming from the outside of the case). The main goal is to have a thought trew airflow for the whole system, were enough cold air gets in and enough hot air gets transported out. It does not hurt to let the (even doe pretty weak) laws of physics help you on the way were cold air is pulled in from lower parts of the case and hot air is pushed out from the top of the case. Also since in many user scenarios the system will have free space in front of it but often will have a wall close to the back, its optimal to pull in from the front and out to the back. This is also how most cases are designed to be used that's why you normally have dust covers in the front and at the bottom but very rarely on the back. Don´t put intake fans slots that don't have any filters or at least some mesh if you are not a great "fan" of dusting of your systems more often than necessary. Last but not least that's also the main reason I do prefer a slight overpressure (positive) in the case since it to some extend prevents unnecessary small particle to be sucked in throw evry small gaps that does not have a filter. I have been able to see a pretty noticeable difference in build of filth in systems wits positive vs negative pressure, over the years ( i do also do maintenance on systems for people) over the years especially from people who smoke and have pets.
As always great video Jay, keep up the good work! :D
Thats why I love channels like JayzTwoCents, LTT, GN. They test things and they don't care if they are a sponsor or a major partner. If those partners lie to them or worse, their audience, they get mad and they show it. Yes, those channels are big and theoretically we shouldn't trust everything they say. But! They show us soooo often, that we should trust them, but not by saying trust us, but by doing those things we are seeing in this video, for example.
So please Jay, keep up like this and always be that honest. This is what we need, more honesty in this world!
yeah, with LTT you don't have to worry about sponsers lying to them, they can do that all by themselves.. Then when they are corrected by viewers and other reviewers their first response is to defend their lies and after that cry about it... while those lies have cost other people money..
JayzTwoCents is the only one I watch if I want actual facts PLUS information I can follow and understand.. GN is good too but the way they present their information and the speed the guy talks with technical terms or numbers makes it hard to watch/follow and learn from.. never had the problem of having to rewatch Jayz video because I couldn't follow along.
But LTT... to me.. they don't excist
would be interesting to visualize the airflow inside the chassis in the test too. warm airflow is better than no airflow for sure.
Thank you for helping the average consumer sort through marketing shenanigans. You da man!
the #1 producer of heat in a pc case is lack of fresh ambient airflow through the system. This especially applies in data centers and why you have a cool side in a rack where the AC blows in from the floor, and a hot side where the fresh air gets heated, exhausted and goes to the top of the rack.
A good way is if you can intake from the bottom of the case, assuming the case has enough clearance, and then exhaust out the top and front rad. In which case you'd have a useful negative pressure on the bottom of the case to help further draw more air in.
Yeahh! You tell'em Jay!
Great video dude, love to see testing like this.
Best video in ages. Right on J2C.
I agree with you about pulling cooler air in through the radiator. There is not enough extra heat added to the system to make a difference to component longevity.
I just gave my friend my “old” computer (R9 5950X with an MSI Suprim X 3090 Ti) in an O11 XL with 6 fans exhaust and 3 intake. It was setup that way because I set the fans on the bottom rad backwards and just left it. So top and bottom exhaust and side intake. The only complaint I heard from him about temperatures is he doesn’t need an extra space heater in his room during the winter.
BTW even components like SMD and throughput components can withstand heat from soldering which can be 200F to 400F
I completely agree about the radiator fans as intake. I have a 3x140mm radior/fan intake and use a 180mm exit fan in the back. I have never had a problem with internal heat increasing to such an extent it was a problem. That huge exhaust fan is THE reason for that. I've set my fans to operate on temperatures curves and the internal temperatures remain well within tolerance with a CPU/GPU load after one hour...I've been doing it this way for a very long time.
Got a Define Nano S with two rads, and the back of the case has a EK FLT reservoir instead of a fan. I added dust filters to the top rad. The acrylic panel got replaced by a mesh.
I've set all my fans to intake. The air goes through the front and top of the case, and out the side. The top rad helps cool my VRM heatsink and both my RAM sticks with direct airflow, something a lot of systems rely on more passively.
Jay said PROBE!!
great video! I personally run 3 intake, 3 exhaust its solid
Using a roll of gaffer tape for a cup holder. That is PRECISELY how I do it on my nightstand for cups and water bottles to minimize smacking it and drenching everything in the room. Love it! 8:27