Why There are NO HEROIC UNITS in StarCraft 2 except The MotherShip
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 05. 2024
- PROTOSS deleted units - • PROTOSS DELETED UNITS ...
ZERG deleted units - • ZERG DELETED UNITS fro...
🔹 Support the channel - www.donationalerts.com/r/espo...
🔹Reddit page - / bassetyt
🔹Twitter page - / bassetsc2
🔹 Discord server - / discord
🔹 PSISTORM Patreon - / membership
Timecodes:
00:00 Why though?
00:28 Leviathan
01:44 Brutalisk
02:37 Odin
03:17 Hyperion
04:01 What Mothership used to be
#sc2
#starcraft
#starcraft2
#esports - Hry
PROTOSS deleted units - czcams.com/video/TlqBhNw_RRU/video.html
ZERG deleted units - czcams.com/video/f66w6JXQS1c/video.html
Timecodes:
00:00 Why though?
00:28 Leviathan
01:44 Brutalisk
02:37 Odin
03:17 Hyperion
04:01 What Mothership used to be
The mother ship is a glorified "end game" airtoss support unit, while the others are in the classic sense "an actual hero unit from warcraft rts".
000000. 3r7
Meanwhile: Viper goes *yoink lol*
Well partner, you gotta admit, the Protoss do know how to make a flashy entrance with that mothership. But let's not forget that it takes a whole lot of resources and time to build one of those bad boys. Meanwhile, my Raiders can take down a Dominion Battlecruiser with a couple of well-placed shots and some good ol' fashioned determination. So, who's the real hero here?
I remember hearing the Brutalisk was orginally going to be a unit morphed from an ultralisk. Would've been kinda interesting. Every unit gets an evolution! Except the Mutalisk ironically, who would've gone from 2 units that it could morph into to none
I remember guardians, what was the other unit?
@@Aerxis Devourer, a fat anti-air muta throwing aoe debuffs
@@Devilslave2 oh yeah right, Sc1's leviathans
wouldn't it be hilarious if ultras morphed into giant versions of banelings which exploded with nuke-level damage
@@cmloegcmluin I'm opening the editor as we speak
I think the main reason protos got to keep the mother ship is it fits the theme of the race (Smaller numbers of tanky units) and makes the race more unique, instead of just Terran 2.0. It also provides more utility than strength, making it a classic addition to the protos army, where as the hero units for the other races simply seemed to be bigger, tankier stuff that could already do.
Fun fact: Motherships weren't always Heroric inits in melee, the tag was added to prevent Zerg from recalling their swarm onto the enimy base.
Rofl, I've been out for a while, am I understanding correctly that you're saying recall can target any nexus, not just friendly nexus, and zergs would neural a mothership and recall a huge swath of units to an enemy nexus?
@@Norrieification you're thinking of Stretiegeic recall, Mass Recall brings your units to the Mothership
@@kasothronos4434 Oooh. Got it. Thanks! So you'd neural the mothership when it's at the enemies base (maybe sneak in with a burrowed infestor) and then recall? That's sick.
Carbot's Starcrafts s3 finale in a nutshell
A really good design of heroic units is present in CO-OP, where Mengsk's royal guard units are very powerful, but not too much so they are still pretty squishy, but they complement your army with +1 armor to nearby troopers (from thor) and +1 attack range (from BS) or just serve as damage sponge (marauders). Well, you get the idea. Maybe they could've implemented something like this in some way...?
I feel like hero units just get into warcraft 3 teritory and the devs just wanted to give SC2 a unique identity
Yes. One idea to buff the Mothership is to reduce shield damage to nearby units by 50% in addition to it's cloaking. I'll call the new passive, Shroud of Adun.
Minor correction, Mengsk's Thors actually give +5 armor to nearby units, not +1.
EDIT: Did not pay attention to the comment date. My bad.
@@BetaSigmaOmega104 it was already +5, later on it was +3 and covered less area. It really funny to use thor against some type of enemies like zerglings/marines/hydralisks and satura and satura, when u just load your thor into imperial medivac, and just floating with thor under your army, it will still give you +5 armor, and you dont need to be micring him, excepting launching medivac's boost burners. But Mengsks heroes are really sometimes more powerful than commanders heroes, like BCs yamato, stimpack marauders, especially ghosts, and in some ways simple vikings that's just 2-shoting any massive targets on air, and dealing massive damage in 5 seconds
@@adfghsfol yeah, my bad, but i was just talking about the idea of minor buffs in general and that they could be implemented in competitive with some units
I'd say that heroic units really need to be more of a force multiplier than a one man army to be fun. I'd really love to see some kind of huge, buff-oriented aerial Zerg heroic. Terran probably would mesh best with some kind of fire support or static structure deploying heroic.
Hmm. A Zerg heroic that deployed creep, had a small healing aura, and had the equivalent of a base or two of larva generation that you could deploy directly from it would be interesting.
Like how mengsk's units work in Coop, the battlecruiser is alright by itself, but it gives everything under it +1 range. The thors give +5 armor to units standing near them.
@@DanStaal Brilliant and original idea! We call it: The Monarch
@@Gwilly4280 Heh. The queen was on my mind - but I was thinking more of a flying leviathan-type unit but have it have a very pitiful (or no) attack. Basically you can call it down as a mobile hatchery, reinforcing from directly behind the front line.
Agreed. It's kinda sad, yet fitting, how in Heart of the Swarm's campaign, the game basically goes from Starcraft 2 to "Kerrigan solo roflstomps everything, featuring support from the Zerg race". The zerg themselves are the force multiplier for the hero, distracting and disrupting, making an actual Zerg hero unit kind of tricky to design.
Though I do think Daniel has a good idea. If the Zerg's whole deal is the swarm, rather than their support unit making the zerg army more dangerous, make it more un-ending, allowing you to keep the pressure up even when your army numbers are running low.
Maybe something like the Omega worm from coop, which was a special Nydus worm that Kerrigan gets that has nearly instant load/unload. For a much higher cost with a long cooldown, you can spawn in an Omega worm "builds" itself much faster, has more HP and waaaay faster creep spreading, and loads/unloads way quicker, allowing the Zerg to suddenly appear and swarm the other player from an unexpected location. But, the high cost alongside the fact that the worm can't actually move and could be easily killed if you back off would strongly encourage you to keep the pressure up and throw more and more units into the attack, since losing the worm would be a huge resource setback.
Maybe if they adjusted the leviathan to be more centered around casting (like a mobile base perhaps?) it could have stayed
like a moving hive
I still remember how disappointed I was when I found out that the mothership didn’t have none of the cool abilities I saw in the demo
The planet cracker would have been baller. I think if it just had that alone that would make it worth building. Just erase your opponents army with a sweep
@@StarboyXL9 I remember seeing that in the Terrain campaign and being disappointed you couldn't actually do that .
Same here. 13 years on amd I'm still bitter about it
the time bomb ability was cool and a nice pun too. i ended up stealing that idea for some original characters
The mothership takes what protoss does with deathball and amplifies it without being either neccecary or useless. Its more like a massive shield than a unit, the way to add hero units would be to allow them to amplify the main part of a races playstyle, say extra movespeed for zerg, lets swarm get closer but by no means defends them.
I was thinking something along the lines of Han and Horners Galleon from Co-Op, like the leviathan can spit out units, whether it be some units unique to it, or some other standard units
Like for some unique units it could potentially send out scourges, aberrations, maybe some infested terran, potentially even some more abstract stuff from sc1like the defilers or devourers
Honestly the idea of a moving zerg base is pretty cool. Zerg is very limited that it can only spawn unit from larva at base or upgrade existing unit (like baneling from zergling). It would be cool to have leviathan to be able to spawn unit as a forward base so that you can harass enemy base very rapidly or in the late game act as a quick spawner to quickly pinch the enemy force forcing your opponent to move out and take out the leviathan down before they get overwhelmed. It might be very toxic though, but considering you'd have to expend a lot of resource to make a leviathan, might be worth it depending on the supply cost.
For terran, ghost already fulfill the function of support and marine as all rounder. + With terran being a defensive race, having a unit that can soak up a lot of damage sounds really good. That's why for hyperion reducing the damage output, and instead reworking it's yamato cannon and defense matrix sounds really good. Yamato cannon should be autocast and replace default attack doing splash damage but can be deactivated if defense matrix activated. Defense matrix always activate at specific % which then disable hyperion and give it a lot of damage reduction. This way hyperion always become a threat and can be adjusted by changing it's attack interval (both the time it took from starting yamato cannon attack and the time between the attack), damage from yamato cannon, defense matrix % activation, and health point. Ideally like mothership it become shield for marine and other unit under it, taking fire for them and yet unlike mothership actually able to take fire from extended period without being able to singlehandedly wipe out the opponent or to be ignored completely in favor of your other squishier unit.
The "too powerful" issue could have been solved via the Grey Goo treatment, where the heroic unit would take an enormous amount of supply (100 maybe?). They are, after all, meant to be one man armies.
The problem isn't really with balance, it's that the concept of the "one man army" is inherently unfun and toxic. A real army is complex and granular, constantly losing and gaining units, many abilities, extremely flexible shape which means considerations around terrain and base design. Controlling an army is an intense push-and-pull, very hard micro, ties deeply into your macro choices over time.
A "one man army" throws the genre out the window. Mothership gets away with it because it's explicitly a support unit. If it isn't part of an army, it's unusable, which maintains the importance of the army.
@@SeventhSolar agreed, at that point its just another stinking moba
You could also make the build time a bit more significant too. Perhaps you could also make it a "you can only build this once" so players will be playing a game of hero unit chicken with one another.
@@ctrain149 Epic units worked well for Kane's Wrath, they were not a one-man army though.
On the other hand, KW was a macro game while SC2 is a micro game.
Still, Epic units could work if, say, you add two:
-An Air Epic Support Unit (Hyperion, Mothership, Leviathan)
-A Ground Combat Unit (Odin, Brutalisk, Long Zealot titan?)
@@SeventhSolar mothership doesn't really work because it's just 400/400 lost
Its interesting that games like Supreme Commander and now Beyond All Reason (BAR) can do it with no problem.
I think the "problem" in starcraft is that the game is just too fast for it... a couple of marines, zerglings or Zs can destroy half of your economy in seconds, while in SupCom, AoE, etc, your economy is not that fragile, i was going to include BAR as well on this, but your energy can go kaboon very fast if you dont protect it.
I dont agree that Slow and Tanky units dont fit the Zerg Race, that is just bullshit, ultralisk is literally one of the biggest zerg symbol of the zerg propaganda.
On my opinion, the Only way to add Big Heroic Units, is getting rid of what makes starcraft starcraft.... SPEED.
Or to just make them tanks or have AOE/Area control with low damage to counter speed. I mean, for christ sake a bunch of marines clumped together and you're telling me that a blast from say a Thor with those big freakin guns hitting one guy DOESN'T equally blast the others around him? Buzz off
I think brutalisk would've been a fine option actually, without changing movement speed, just make them basically a siege unit, big, expensive, slow moving and attacking, Stupidly high HP, high armor, low damage and you got a beast that can soak a huge amount of damage to be sent in front of the squishy weak units as a shield when taking down an enemy base, then because its low damage but really hard to kill, the other player will have to take out the rest of the army first before focusing it.
You have been on a roll man! Over 100 videos already, been with you from the start, has been a great ride! Hope to see many more in the future
Thank you!
I feel like for zerg, a flying hive would work perfectly. The units spawning from it wouldn't be free, but you could stage from anywhere on the map.
it sort of seemed like Blizzard wanted to make the Thor, the Queen, the Ultralisk, the Colossus, and the Battlecruiser be somewhat on par with the Mothership. lower power, because you can only build 1 Mothership but multiples of the other units (except one weird exception), but within the same ballpark, where they are these huge massive units that are incredibly strong late-game units.
the Thor had *so much more health* pre-release and was _a lot_ larger. it had *900hp.* and of course, it had that massive barrage ability as well, that did huge AOE damage.
the Battlecruiser had its differentiating individual upgrades thing, that could do HUGE amounts of damage with the plasma barrage, the missile barrage, massive tanking with defensive matrix, and, of course, the yamato cannon.
the Colossus was _also_ much, much tankier. when the Colossus was originally shown off, it had *over twice as much health* as it does today. 325 shields, 200 health. that's slightly more health than a modern day Ultralisk, so it's safe to assume the Ultralisk _also_ probably had a lot more health than it does today, possibly on par with a Thor, around 900.
the Ultralisk was shown pretty sparsely so it's possible it was also meant to be in this same league, where you'd have not very many of them but they were huge and powerful units. even at Wings launch, they had an anti-building attack that would tear defenses apart like they were nothing.
as for the Queen, it for most if its existence was meant to be able to morph into a "super queen", for lack of a better term, that would have more abilities and that you _also_ could only have 1 of at a time like the Mothership if im remembering correctly. i think you could also still only have 1 normal Queen or Super Queen as well, kind of like Mothership Cores and Motherships in Swarm, but beyond that we dont know a lot about what the older Queen was like except that it had Deep Tunnel to quickly teleport between Hatcheries/Lairs/Hives.
as for what's actually mentioned in the video:
at no point was the Leviathan, Brutalisk, a "super BC" ie the Hyperion, or a "super thor" ie the Odin, ever considered as an actual unit for the game, where you could only have 1 of them and they were as powerful as the pre-release mothership. they were clearly intended purely for the campaign. the Mothership was not. i get that this isnt entirely the point of the video, but i feel like it is worth mentioning that.
one of the iterations of the Brutalisk was much, much smaller, somewhere between the sizes of a Ling, Roach, and Hydra. its very unclear what this unit would have ever done, but i like to think that it was actually possibly a Zerg cliff jumper. Terran has Reapers. Protoss has Colossus. but Zerg never got anything like that? the very-same model gets re-used as the Hunterling in Left 2 Die and in co-op as well, which is a cliff jumper. because it reuses this model, i believe its possible the Hunterling is just straight-up recycled from this old cut Zerg unit in its entirety, which leads me to believe this old cut unit was likely a cliff jumper like the Reaper. i have absolutely nothing else to back up this claim tho lol
The mother ship used to have a huge vortex that killed all units inside it instantly
it was in early alfa version only
There is a mod that makes units lore sized and adjusts there stats to match that. There, capital ships have multiple destructable areas. I think something like that could work for these hero units. When you can significantly weaken them by removing abilities or attacks as they take damage, they are not so scary anymore.
I read through the comments and realized that anyone who has had an idea has never played on ladder to any significant extend. Most of these Ideas even if tried to be balanced properly would completely ruin the RTS as we know it on any level of play (varies).
I think the lev would actually work as a mobile spawner for zerg with moderate DPS and CC castings, would be relatively weak to bring into direct combat but able to create units much closer to enemy base for continuous harassment. Basically a flying Niadra
For terran maybe use science vessel (if there isn't one in multi), capable of healing both bio and mech with multi-targets without energy cost and create support drones which either reduce incoming dmg or buff friendlies range (only 2 drones can exist at once). Would be a good compliment to a group of ravens or a firing line
There should be easy access to all these unbalanced units in like 2v2 format or even 1v1 format, without going to custom maps, mods etc. I believe that many players would play it with friends. Imagine toss going full air and your zerg friend build mass small fast flying kamikaze Zerglings ( forgot name), and you go max marines with grapple hooks to harass. There are endless fun possibilities.
Kane's Wrath seems to get away with Heroic/Epic units in multiplayer, at least that's what I gathered from watching Sybert's videos. The players can often field one out and it seems to provide a decent advantage while not being instantly game-winning. Maybe it has something to do with the game speed, CnC being slower than SC2, IDK....
The problem is also that the players allways rush it, i play cnc kw and a lot of games feel similar
Most units in KW are easily capable of beating eachother in the rock paper scissors type gameplay that C&C 3 and KW employ. There are weak units that can absolutely invalidate epic units when given a decent opportunity, such as a raider buggy EMP. The epic units are glass cannons for their cost, as they are slow, limited in scope, and act perfectly as support units instead of focal points. They even announce their arrival. KW has a simple economy for fielding units in the end. One resource that regenerates, base construction without vulnerable workers. No supply cap. So on. Sc2 is a faster game, but the units there are all relatively... weak? Compared to the KW ones.
@@marcwilliamsvaldez9328 We must be playing different games because when somebody rushes a hero/epic unit it means they don't have a big army and once it goes they don't have the funds to defend. Granted I make units like a madman and those kind of games are heart racingly fun for so that could explain few things but still unless it's endgame where heroes with the army become the largest problem to deal with and a game ender hero rush is rather easy to counter especially when it's alone and you split your units to avoid any AOE
The mothership is just a worse, fatter arbiter. It isn't called -400 -400 for no reason.
This was a very interesting video! Keep up the good work :)
Thanks!
If brutalixs be add:
The terran wall: Oh no
I like to think the mothership is on since Protoss players had a similar unit in their army on Starcraft 1, that's the Arbiter: a flying "caster" that cost a huge amount of resources and none great abiities, but an help on contoling the battle.
They both had and area of control of enemies like black hole; they make other invisble thus becoming the main target of the enemy, had a atack(better then dont had atack), and are very situational. They both fit better on the Protoss race since their units are more powerfull and especialists in contrast to zerg being more numbers and terran are versatile.
Mothership would be a lot less of a joke if you couldn't yoink it with a viper.
Warcraft 3 is still very popular among gamers. Having hero units is a great addition to a RTS and opens up a variety of army compositions and sets a game like WC3 closer to chess than SC2.
The devs absolutely should have taken a page out of Supreme Commander's "Experimental Units". They are wacky, T4 units that have niche (but powerful niche) uses. They really stole the show but in a good way.
Well... just as Hyperion is talked about, I remembered the "normal" Battle Cruiser.
Attak on the move, Yamato, has a lot of HP, flying... it seems that Terrans have a fleet of hero units :D
This is the process of making a heroic unit:
1) Developer: Ok, i have this concept of a heroic unit
2) Tester: Sounds cool but kinda op, lets make it weaker
3) Developer: Ok
4a) Tester 2: This unit turns out to be completly useless
5a) Developer: This is not really the idea I proposed, lets just remove the unit from the game
4b) Tester 2: This unit is still broken, there is no way to fix it unless we nerf it to the ground!
5b) Developer: Nevermind, lets just remove it from the game
4c) Tester 2: This unit is pretty cool, but the race depends too much on it and the game centers about it
5c) Developer: Lets make it less unforgiving to lose the unit, while making the unit slightly weaker to compensate
6c) Tester 3: It didnt work. We tried drop calling/warping/tunneling the unit to bring it instantly after it gets killed, but players starting using suicidal tactics to get value and they are exploiting this game mechanic too much. Needing to babysit the unit was a huge drawback that we seem not able to remove.
7c) Developer: Oh, i have a huge idea, lets make the unit even weaker, but in compensation, we let the players build as many of them as they want.
8c) Everyone: Yeah, lets make an actual regular unit
The only reason mothership is in game is how strong Arbiters are. These simply could not be implemented into sc2 without breaking the game
As a Protoss main, I would gladly give up the mothership in exchange for having the core back. The -400/-400 is real.
I've had the same thoughts about Leviathan and Brutalisk down to your precise balance suggestions. However, seeing how Blizz has chosen to balance units over the years, it seems next to impossible that they would bother even trying anymore, but I'd be ecstatic to be wrong! Thanks for the vid =]
I remember early in Wings of Liberty, the meta for Protoss was to Max out and go for Mothership Archon toilet.
6:09 Agreed. Starcraft was not meant for Heroic units to exist. And for that matter, Heroic races like the Protoss and Xel'naga. To this day, I still don't like the way Protoss units are force-fitted into balance between the 3 races. The feel is totally wrong and off.
I've tried many ways to workaround this in my headcanon. Like maybe the Protoss units and structures in the game are weaker because they're stronger-than-usual hallucinated copies powered by Psi. Or that maybe this, maybe that.
I think brutalisk could be used, but retooled. Cut the size and HP, and melee damage…
But keep the AA. This would give zerg armies a ground based AA option that doesn’t suck.
What If Heroic Units Were Intruduced Into The Game As A Sudden Death Overtime For Matches Where Both Players Have Completely Destroyed One Another's Structures?
Leviathan feels like it could have been a regular unit if downsized properly, like the Odin/Thor for Terran.
Make it have like a single hit attack against ground (like Guardian), Scourge spawn against air so you can keep the theme of zerging. And maybe then we could have proper Zerg Air in late game.
Why There are NO HEROIC UNITS in StarCraft 2 except The -400/400😄
1:16 the original leviathan makes mutas and brood lords, which is quite swarmish
I mean Levithan and Hyperion could be altered to fit a similar role that the mothership provides. A support unit. Levithan have its damage and everything reduced and act as a spawn ship. 25 supply and while it is on the field all hives produce larve slower. Levithan produces half as much larva as all your hives. Second option would be to make it like a dropship. It can scoop up larva from hives say maybe 15 to 20 larva? and then drop pod them in dealing maybe a small amount of damage when they land. Hyperion could sac guns for advance tech options to add support. Or even more fun it could pick up various terrain mech or ships and act shield of sorts. Strap 2 or 3 thors to the bottom of one, 4 tanks (just throwing numbers out) and it acts as a mobile device. Sure you lose the units if it blows up.
Heroic units could be viable in a balanced fashion if they were time gated with high resource costs. For instance, if the tech tree and build times would make them undeployable until minute 30, they would be a way for a fast expanding player with an eco lead to punish someone turtling, much like the original concept for nukes, except with super units like these. Keeping them at Supply 0 but keeping them unique would encourage their usage so having a high cost when resources are scarce could have an interesting risk-reward ratio on pushing out a heroic unit for the final kill, like an all-in in a very late game. Players who could hold with more resource efficient units could then push ahead in eco advantage if the heroic unit goes down. It'd basically be a way for late-game players with eco advantage to finish a drawn-out game.
I'd say a combination of buying the thing and the leveling it up that way you can rush it if you want but it only becomes BS after you earn it with enough kills. Unttil then, then enemy has all the time in toe world to stop you with their own hero or just produce a bigger army which makes for good counterplay
The leviathan fits, the other races have capital ships, the zerg dont
i forget the name but some version of the big medivac from wings of liberty campaign would be cool. maybe it could have a tactical jump or some extra ability to go super fast but it has to land to unload so its basicly a one way trip or if it speeds in it can tactical jump out. :)
Mother ship core: i am joke for you ?
Evryone literaly evryone: YES
3:50 the gorgon battlecruiser would make sense
I see the main problem of the heroics units are their role.
Most if them have the same role of other units, being just more powerful.
(With the expetion of Leviathan.)
Well, at least they are in coop.
I think my favorite implementation of super units is the Kane’s Wrath Epic Units.
That's correct. KW's macro-focused game design accomodates super units very well. SC2's super units don't work because of it's micro-oriented design.
What is the map you used for heroes battles ?
Strange thing about Leviathan is that in WoL, it's a monstrosity. In the HoS artwork, it looks like a cute space mammoth. Hummm...
I think heroic units should actually be heroic structures, something that statically helps your army without directly attacking the enemy and destroying their mineral lines. Like if you're already ahead by a mile it helps you kop the playing field.
Im a zerg player but i really hope they rework the mothership. They should remove the cloaking field since its just too annoying, but overall buff the mothership and make it a menace rather than a meme.
"THICC protoss shields"
Here’s how I would implement the heroic units for each race:
Terran: Odin
Requirements:
Limit 1
Orbital Command
Factory/w tech lab
Fusion Core
1000 minerals 1000 gas
10 Supply
Zerg: Leviathan
Requirements:
Limit 1
Hive
Greater Spire
Morph from Mutalisk -> Brood Lord -> Leviathan
1000 minerals 1000 Gas
10 Supply
Protoss: Taldarim Mothership
Reason: the base mothership can’t really compete with the other heroic units. Plus, there really isn’t Taldarim representation in the Protoss line up in multiplayer.
Requirements:
Limit 1
Nexus
Stargate
Fleet Beacon
No Tempests
No Carriers
1000 Minerals 1000 Gas
10 Supply
What do you all think? Are these requirements too strict or are they not strict enough? What you all add or change?
with how ZvP works I feel like a hero unit that costs 5k minerals + gas as a way to break a stalemate wouldn't be a bad idea. I don't think it should be able to win on its own but as a way to get the game going or end the game would be nice. Katowice, R32, Armani vs Nice, game 3, is a good example of a game being nearly 45min long simply because neither player felt comfortable making a move.
I think the hero units should be strong but easy to counter, investing a large part of your eco early would be punished but it would still be a great addition to your late game.
i think it would be kinda cool if there was a heroic unit for each race or maybe even 2-3 different ones for each race, some games get like really long and boring and nothing really is happening for a while. i feel like a hero unit could spice things up in that kinda games, they could lock it behind a timer, like u can only build it like at 10-15+min into the game and it takes like 5 min to build or somehting and it costs alot of minerals/gas/supply. and/or u have to use 20 of ur supply to build it so ur at only 180 supply vs ur opponents 200 supply for 5 min that its building and basicly be vonerable for that 5 min but if u build it its as powerfull as 40 supply or somehting.
that could be very cool and give the usuall lategame turtleshit some spice.
it could even pop a message for the oppenent like "hero unit is building" thats how it works in other rts, like the wonders in age of empires and stuff.
with some thoutfull balancing it could be really fun i think.
what would be the case if the hero units would be strong, but slow as a sloth bureaucrat and would be visible on the minimap for everyone?
This way mindgames can be done, because
- is the hero unit part of the main army?
- is it a separate solo runby force? (imagine a base overlord "runby")
- should you counter it with a force or send your own hero unit against it?
- ignore it because the time it reaches your base the game would be over?
However I could see turtling could be difficult to crack...
Hero Units could just evolve from normal units. Like for example, BC managed to get 50 kills counter - one can upgrade it into flagship version (Hyperion). Of course, it would take more supply, have to be upgraded like a building and take a lot of space, would cost craptons of resources... And more importantly... Once you start to upgrade, you won't be able to cancel it.
That's what I've been wondering myself. Instead of building it and potentially rush cheesing, earn it so the opponent has time to counter
So hero units probably work best as support rather than offensive units.
Here are my takes:
scVictus: A super scv that can repair mech units (two at a time) like vessels in campaign. It doesn't fly. And you need fusion reactor for it. It also has the point defense drone ability. Unlike scv, cannot be heal with medivac.
For zerg. A building like the colonies. It can uproot and go somewhere else. It can spawn nydus anywhere that has creep twice as fast. However each nydus has less health. Also cost a quarter (of regular nydus). Obviously with a cooldown otherwise it'd be dumb. Each nydus also spawn a creep tumor. Eat and pule units faster than nydus
I say keep the hero units but they only get to their final BS army ROFLSTROMP powers after you level them up. That way you have to earn it and your enemy has all the chance to stop you wither with their own hero or larger army. Makes for good couterplay
Meanwhile Supreme Commander: FA, "Everyone has OP units that are difficult to counter."
The be fair...mothership IS pretty damn bad
i wouldnt want to play with hero / epic units in SC2, i think another nail in the coffin on why they didnt do it was its competitor at the time C&C 3 released its expansion kane's wrath (released in 2008) where they did come with hero / epic units, and every competitive player hated them since stated, ppl ether rushed to them, or they simply died to an over aggressive early rush to destroy as many harvesters as possible to force a gg, it became extremally stale extremally fast. casual players tho did enjoy them as it gave them that power satisfaction.
SC2's main problem with hero-like units: their balance requires lateralization, but the lore suggests a more vertical power hierarchy. This is how a group of marines shoots down a battlecruiser. It makes no sense.
"Hundreds or fousands of units".
FOOUSAND OF UNITS, MATE! FOUSANDS!
Sorry my English pronunciation is sometimes a bit off since it's my second language :D
@@EsportsStoryteller I'm Spanish, so trust me, my English is "bery" funny :P
Crappy jokes aside, nice video. I'm a sc2 fan and there's a lot of stuff I didn't know!
I don't know if its related or not, but the coop commanders are very different, some are hero based, like Kerrigan and Fenix, Some army based like Swann and Raynor, Some on top panel like Zera and Vorazun. But id actually like to see them in ranked 1v1 . Mb in sc3 if thats ever gonna happen. (I know about All stars and that they all were created for PVE, which means there are a lot of broken, unbalanced things that need to be fixed, butI hope you get the idea). I know that making sc based around commaners or heroes may look like loosing identity, but if i think that these things may shake up(in a good way ) the series and give it a new breath
You forgot the motherships most op alpha ability, the black hole which ate a whole army
Good day, sorry to mention this but I also had the same problem with my accent. Your English is really good. Just please check your pronunciation of "er" and "ir" as in "first, her, etc". Good luck and thanks for the videos!
Thanks for advice!
In hots we also have one special battlecrusier in hyperion mission
Mothership is most definitely useful in team games like 2v2, 3v3, 4v4.
But you actually can play with hero units in multiplayer... if you use a mod like the co-op commanders mod.
if you bring a dark templar bellow a mothership, it will be supercloak, cannot be detected by a single detector 😅
We don't have heroic units (which is good), but you have the game Heroes of the Storm if you lack heroic units... the whole game is 10 heroic units in a match.
There are 90 heroic units in total.
If sc2 had heroic units out wouldn't be a real RTS
all fun and game until viper snatch your hero unit into a pack of hydralisks
That's actually something that should be changed
I haven’t used the units so I can’t really say how much about how much health/supply change they need to be balanced but 10-15 supply, 20-40ish% stronger than current mothership and only available after all tier 3 upgrades from evolution chamber/ armoury+ maybe chitinous plating/neosteel armour for example seems kinda reasonable for a stalemate breaker kinda unit. Of course you’d probably want to give the mothership similiar treatment and give them abilities that fairly discourage turtling similiar to viper. Also maybe give spores a slight discount cause Zerg feels weakest defensively (Terran and toss are still great at turtling, but Zerg needs help after swarm host nerf imo, also Zerg hero unit should probably be weakest/most situational to compensate)
Just give me a long ranged swarm host heroic unit that launches 15 burrowing slightly stronger locust every 20 secs and I'll be happy.
Doesn't need to be tanky, meant to supplement army not for harassing (burrowing locust) and maybe produce larva? Seems balanced to me.
RTS is about how you deploy your units on the map. If you have a heroic unit than it makes the positional and compositional strategy boring.
byun with a hero unit would break the game... again
Nor sure about zerg but for terran there is a little thing in the campaign that heals mech units and I think I gives energy im not sure long tine since I played the campaign. Anyway a little rework and that could be a cool hero for terran
Science Vessel
@@BradenASDF that xd
What about Zerg Aberrations?
good video
The original time bomb ability and planet cracker were not OP.
Planet cracker can only target ground and you can simply run or spread your units.
For time bomb dont fight in it.
Only black hole was op, a 1 shot, aoe, no escape skill is indeed op
Perhaps if there were two separate ladders the players could choose which they prefer.
I would love a "Starcraft IMBA" ladder. Every unit that's ever been designed for the SC2 campaign and Brood War? It's in. The upgrade trees from the campaign where you can upgrade your units mid-match beyond a simple +1 to stats? Throw that in too. Would it be a mess? Completely. But if every race is buffed to the point of being broken then no one can take it seriously and thus have some fun with the game.
@@TylerInTraining Balance is important in general but also creates design constraints for the game. A wild mode that focused slightly less less on it would add the fun of trying to figure out the constantly changing meta.
They could have done it like smash bros... Offer the option to use unique units or not.
More options = more gooder!
make the the mothership smaller fester and maybe increase the range of the clock and people would probably use it a lot more without messing up the meta to much
I think it would be nice if they added some other leagues where they could try out all the crazy stuff without ruining the Meta for the main game.
I just hope some of the stormgate devs are seeing these.
They are toying with "elite" and other mothership like units.
They are the ones that realized heroic units had no place in multiplayer and they have more it less confirmed that there won't be heroes in stormgate's 1vs1 mode. They are toying with weaker support heroes for the 3v3 mode which I'm okay with.
@@Anomen77 yes. What I mean is I hope they see this as a reminder of why they need to be careful with those types of units. IIRC several SC2 devs are on the stormgate team.
@@Anomen77 I woudln't say they have no place in multiplayer but more of they haven't been implemented it in a way that everybody agrees is good (take controller designs for example). Some games have some aspects (WC3 heroes you had to level up, Kanes Wrath were deadly but balanced out by a large enough army, Grey Goo made them take up so much army space, and etc) but one game has yet to combine all of them into a streamline way that can be universally implemented
A shame the Devsa said that though. I was hoping they would do it for the Demon faction
Because StarCraft game developers love Protoss bias. Protoss deathball OP.
We want Terratron!
We all would love to have more units, heroic units...more from everything, but sc2 should stay as it is. It's an awesome game that is well balanced, we should not fix what works and is enjoyable.
Mothership time stop be like:
Player with low spec PC : stop missile turret, you killing my fps 😂
First thing to know brutalisk has 1500 HP! and deals like a 100 dmg so it wouldnt be fair and leviathan has 3000 HP! and it deals lots of dmg soo if a zerg builds one Ggwp.
Mothership would be balanced if it was the Arbitor.
Protos have observer and Dark templar invinsible all the time. ...Ghost should do the same 😀
1 word, Skytoss
what about gorgans
Too bad the Taldarim Mothership isn’t available in Multiplayer
Mothership is the only acceptable hero unit because it's"complete garbage" is so true lol
So, what I hear, is they lack imagination. got ya