We Explain Why Jeep Gladiator, Chevy Colorado ZR2 Frames Bent
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- We recently found out about a Jeep Gladiator and a Chevy Colorado ZR2 with bent frames. In this video, we asked engineers to explain why they think the frames bent. It is a much watch for some detailed answers!
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Pickup Truck Plus SUV Talk this amazing video got my sub. I have watched a few And by far this was the best.
That aside, safety is not my strong suit so when I get my gladiator, depending on how reliable the eco diesel is, I am boxing in the frame and getting a roll cage that will allow me to get into a wreck and drive home. Gonna build a tank!
that spot is a crumple zone it did it's job watch the crash test video (that spot crumples)
Exodus fivesixfivesix FYI the frame is already boxed.
The notch in the frame for rear crash accidents might be the most telling. It may be that the rented trailer essentially rear ended these trucks. The Gladiator doesn't come with a factory brake controller. Most people have never towed anything. So most people also don't know what a brake controller is. If the Gladiator jammed on the brakes at the same time that the truck's tire hit the leading face of a large rut or step the the forces on the trailer hitch would be quite high. How high? Go ask an engineer, they can calculate it. I can't.
Wish the expert had spent more time on the Colorado. In the picture, it looks like the axle of the trailer is also bent. I doubt that the 1" taller tires alone caused that kind of damage.
As an auto engineer, I gotta say watching some of this is at times a bit painful... A pintle hitch does not necessarily offer more roll articulation than a ball hitch, and neither of these bent frames had anything to do with the hitch anyway.
The hole pictured in the bent frame is right in the middle of the rail. That's where you'll commonly find them because it's in the null axis, or zero stress area of the frame. The top and bottom of the frame see the most stress in a bending situation, and holes there would be bad.
Too long a shock on the Gladiator could definitely play a part. If the shock is fully compressed BEFORE the axle hits the jounce stop, any further movement of the suspension is stopped 100% through the shock mounts, and tongue load at the hitch would rise very quickly as an impulse load into the frame. Now instead of the frame carrying the weight above the axle, while the section behind the axle is trying to bend down, the frame is carrying the load at the shock mounts well forward of the axle, and that same tongue load now has a longer lever in effect acting to bend the frame at the shock mounts. The longer the lever, the easier it is to bend something.
Finally, tire size has nothing to do with either of these. The tire size has no influence on how the frame, springs, and axle carry or handle weight like this. The tire "spring rate" from pressure really only matters once the vehicle has completely used up all available suspension travel, and even then it's really not likely to make much difference, whether at 50psi or 20psi.
The whoop theory is right on. I'd bet money that both drivers overcooked some sort of dip, and trailer weight became tongue weight, probably with a good application of tow vehicle brakes thrown in at the same time to amplify it. You simply can't put that much vertical force into the hitch of a light truck like these and expect that the frame won't give. That kind of loading is simply behind what is reasonable.
Thanks for sharing!
Just bought a Gladiator and was worrying a bit. Glad to see it's a bit of operator error.
Good right up, easy to understand. Thanks for the info.
Well said Chris. You literally took the words out of my brain I was about to write. I can get you some angle measurements for ball vs Pintle as well. Also some other factors such as tongue weight, brakes on the trailer, even the ballast weight on the trailer higher up will dynamically affect the tongue loading if the trailer to the vehicle. I have many Jeep trailers we customize with aftermarket suspension for on road and off road. But, dead on with your theory Chris.
I guess my biggest question, that would quiet the "frame not strong enough" arguments, is: if you took a 1 ton truck and had a proportionately heavy trailer behind it, and then took it in a similar situation would you have the same frame failure?
Based on your response above, it sounds like the answer is yes. Because the failure came from angle of the load on the hitch causing the tongue weight to exceed the maximum tongue weight capacity. And maybe the Mid-Size market is a little more prone to this because people are taking relatively heavy loads in more extreme conditions along with driver inexperience.
So it has nothing to do with the GM Hydro formed frames that were bending simply from being tied down to the trucks for transport? There may be some operator error but there’s no excuse for this frame bending when hauling within weight limitations of the vehicle.
Thanks for having me on. Excellent topic.
Coming from an engineering background myself it was fantastic to finally hear some real engineering perspective on this - thank you!
@@BowTied69 Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. I hope to dig into such topics as I revive my own You Tube channel, which is mostly dormant right now. Don't judge it by what you see today. Much of what's there dates back to a time when I used it to house short clips that could be pasted into blog posts via their URLs.
In you opinion are the stock tundra current suspension setup able to handle daily off road use?
It was good to hear from you, Dan. Engineers like yourself usually do a good job, I know it's the "Bean Counters" and government mandates that screw things up. I myself am a self professed Field Engineer from the "School of Hard Knocks".
Good info Dan
I find it rare that any warranty is actually ever stood by.
True, but I was shocked when Toyota fixed the cracked dashboard on my dad 2004 Sienna in 2018. He did not complain or anything... they just sent a letter for him to take it in for a free dashboard as a customer appreciation and quality control measure.
It sure they covered it due to the mass publicity it gained.
My mom has a 2009 chevy traverse that had a trans problem laster year they fixed it for her cuz it had a extended warranty for 15 years so she got a new transmission without any questions asked i was shocked
They are made in the cheapest way possible and sold at the highest possible price.
How much are you willing to pay?
Capitalism? Lol no
Socialism. Obama raised CAFE standards so high with no regard to practicality that manufactures were forced to lighten everything including the most important structural part.
They said the same shit... 30 years ago lol.. Use an inflation calculator. Prices are virtually the same homegirl
Engineered for looks and profit, tested in perfect conditions with exaggerated specs. Not be used in the real world. Thank the marketing department.
Bingo!
Now there's an engineer I could sit down and have a beer with. Smart and has practical experience.
We all know what really happened with these trucks.
i hauled cars back when GM went to the hydroformed frames ,We were bending the frames tieing them down to the truck .GMblamed us for tieing them down to tight .They would not own up to the fact that they are JUNK.
you are correct sir, I worked at a Gm truck plant. When we did a major model change for 99 and started shipping them out. Within a day we heard how the rail and truck were tying them down too tight and bending frames. With collison and gas consumption issues all manufacturers lighted up everything on trucks from that point on. We all new what the issue was. Manufacturers idea of off road is a dirt road or trail. True off roaders are built, you can't buy them any more. the production speed at all plants is 1 a minute. They just don't care. New vehicles are good for 5 years and thats it. After 30 years at Gm I would never buy any new vehicle. Thanks for buying GM, Dodge, Ford, now go eff yourself.
GM=Garbage Motors
this also happens in Australia with different models of ute.
That 120kg ball weight could easily be 3 fold at high speed whoops and wash outs
I wonder how well the Haval version of the Landcruiser does..
Its called "shock loading". Lets say the truck is rated for 500lbs of tongue weight. That rating is a static rating. Lets say the truck has 12inches of wheel travel. Now you drive to fast off road hit big bumps and bottom out the suspension. That 500lbs turns into 1000lbs or more. Its the same reason why hydraulic hoses have 2 ratings, "working pressure" and "burst pressure" for shock loading. It is no coincidence that both these trucks were driving in high speed off road area while towing an off road trailer. Try putting 1000lbs of weight in your truck bed nice as easy, the truck may sag 1inch. Now take that 1000lbs of weight and drop it from 1feet height into the truck bed"shock load". Shock absorbers and tires have nothing to do with this issue. The truck was not designed for high speed off road while towing a trailer.
We assume they were driving at a faster speed than they should have been. Yes, it is called shock loading, you are correct. It isn't the design of the truck being not for high-speed off road and towing, it is the driver not being experienced when faced with this kind of situation.
Well stated. The other video explained he was driving 40 mph on a off road train and hit a three foot whoop to do. Bent the frame and broke the trailer axle. Another guy in the group, posted the rest of the story.
Maybe 5 link rear suspension is not the best for this kind of loads, it seems to me that this design with all its advantadges put a lot of stress in the pivot wich coincidentially was the bent area
The acme of skill in engineering isn't to make something that works, it is to make something that barely works
Don't recall bent frames in the past. Could it be that the marketing folks are selling us on poorly engineerd crap. Also remember the Gladiator is a Fiat product.
I can see a scenario where under the right conditions, the weight of the un-braked trailer is driving down on the ball as the truck is nose upward. This would be equivalent to a rear impact of 2-3 times the trailer weight hitting the frame at a downward diagonal. The frame did what it was designed to do for crash purposes and absorbed the impact force by bending.
Exactly. This is drivers fault.
You are totally right! You know how many times ive seen pick ups going down the highway the ass of the truck dragging low and the trailer nose down and think , theres an accident waitin to happen! Sadly I think its just pure laziness. They don't want to take the time to level the truck and trailer
I hate Stupid people that think they know it all and there Stupid
I have seen full size trucks in accidents with the frame bending in the same place. Your first interview has a good idea of what happened.
After listening to Dan and then seeing the crumple zone on the far,e segment, it makes complete sense what he is saying. That trailer in a whoop section could really be applying the same forces as a rear end impact, causing the frame to buckle as it was designed to do. Remember these frames are not built as cheap as possible, they are built as strong as liability demands. Also, they are built for the average use, not the small segment of enthusiasts.
Double cab + Heavy load behind the axle + Heavy tongue weight on the hitch point + Heavy trailer + Towing on rough terrain = Bend frame
Would this be one impact or possibly an accumulation of impacts?
Roger M who knows what was in the bed also
He hit a big whoop on the trail at 40 mph. Broke the trailer axle also. One of the buddies on the run,posted the rest of the story.
Robert Heinkel that makes way more sense.
@@robertheinkel6225 also, some pick up frames, are meant to bend down, in a rear crash. And the crumple zones can act as a weak point in heavy towing.
I think was an excellent video Tim. Very good information from experts & its timely. Outstanding!
So what I'm taking from this is if this happens, I need to put my truck back into it's original configuration before reporting it. Maybe even stage it in a shopping mall with a few groceries in it???
Yes, put it back to stock, rent a trailer from Uhaul and load it up, and then park the truck near a large bump in a paved road and take pictures before you report it.
Greetings from Australia. When I bought my Toyota Hlux in ‘03, the towing capacity was like 1750 kgs (quite low). Over the years, similar sized utes official tow capacity have doubled as they try to capture the big boat / caravan towing market. People have been bending utes here at that same point (as your photos show) for decades here, often associated with air ride suspension mods n pulling loads on sand tracks with high drag loads. I’m sort of thankful for my pathetic tow rating now.
Thanks for sharing. I've been talking with many manufacturers about Australia and they are all working on different ways to address your growing towing needs. I'm pretty certain they are going to have something new in the next few years. They see a lot of need globally for stronger trucks like the U.S. heavy-duty trucks.
I'm of the mind it was the drivers fault on why the frame bent, but I'm also in the same mind that the modern frames of these trucks are also thinner to the point of being a lot easier to bend.
Id bet money my 07 z71 colorado wouldn't have bent the frame like the zr2 did pulling the same trailer and on that trail. The frame is just way beefier looking and not full of weak points i.e holes.. Why they put holes in the frames is beyond me.. Living in the rust belt, its just a collection point for salt and rust.. They aren't making these vehicles to last 20 years anymore on purpose.
Modern frames are also fully boxed instead of C-Channel. C is more flexible and may be able to bend more and absorb without deforming.
Great analysis and an eye opener for guys traveling down a trail as fast as is possible instead of as fast as is practical. It's not a timed race, it's a completion competition.
One of my favorite videos you have put out. Keep up the great work!
Thanks, will do!
The hammer analogy was perfect the wheel being the pivot point and the frame was made to be the weak link by the tongue weight and a good bounce this has happened to a million trucks over the years they just weren't brand new because people didn't do this with brand new trucks lol now they come ready for offroad so they get used for it sooner in their life
I have a small dozer that I've pulled all over. It only weighs 14k lbs. One particular time though I pulled it over a few terraces and the hitch bent. I completely believe this is on the guy and not on the truck.
Thanks for the update info. this explains a lot.
Glad it was helpful!
Another reason for holes in the frame when they are placed in key high stress areas is to reduce or "kill" stress cracks that may form in those areas of a fully boxed frame.
@Pickup Truck Plus SUV Talk - Great video!!! Finally some engineering perspective. I think the dynamics of the trailer over the bump/whoops is spot on. A 5000lb tow capacity frame pulls 2000lb straight, np easy. Drop that 2000lb weight from 4' and it could be a different story. When the trailer is going down while the truck is going up it's even worse. Engineers are NOT perfect. But until one deals with all the design and cost constraints one doesn't know the challenges that exist to pull it all together. Solid video, subbed!
dan knows his stuff. i started towing on the trails with the rubicon in the 60's and still do every chance i get all over the southwest. pintle hitch is the best for off road but a ball hitch will work within its limits. its up to the operator to know his limits. blaming the manufacture because your an idiot is not right but its done all the time.
Liar the rubicon wrangler wasn't an option until 2003
John Holifield he is talking about the actual rubicon trail not the Jeep named after it 🤦♂️
Exactly. These idiots far exceeded the weight limit on the tongue. They accidentally tried lifting the trailer from the hitch. Instead of 350 pounds on the hitch they had 3000 pounds.
Awesome videos lately Tim! Takeaway here is inexperience and speed are a bad combination. Just because you have a 60k offroad truck doesnt mean it’s invincible. These things are crazy capable- but you still have to know what you are doing and where your limits are.
Exactly.
Shouldn’t call it off-road if it can’t handle off road terrain. These are pavement princesses and can’t handle it. Never seen a Toyota bending the frame towing a camper like that gladiator. A rusty 90s Chevy 1500 with 500k could tow a camper like that all day without a broke frame. They should overbuild things like they used to, now they are very under built
Jake_of_the_Jungle 98 Haha- you are right-the taco frames just rot and break rather than bend. Seriously though, who knows how fast this person was going. Even a little 2k trailer has a ton of force if its slamming down at say 30mph. As stated in the video there is a big difference between off-roading, towing on-road, and towing off-road.
@@jake_of_the_jungle9840 I'm working on a follow-up video on the underbuilt idea. Also, if you took a half-ton, attached a pop-up camper trailer for an apples to apples comparison, hit whoops doing 30-40 mph, I think you'd be surprised how fast the frame would bend.
Good info on this video, thanks.
I am an engineer and listened to your discussion on the holes in the frame. FYI
The hole that was shown does change the strength of the frame. This is because the hole was elongated at the crash bend point by design. Also more important is the comment of welding the hole, the heat added totally changes the metal structure strength. This is why semi trucks have a caution tag on the frame saying it’s illegal to weld on the frame.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
The 🔨 and head example helped a lot thanks for dumbing it down for me 😅
LOL. That was a fun part of the video.
😂😂😂
“When driving offroad, or working the vehicle, don’t overload the vehicle or expect the vehicle to overcome the natural laws of physics.” from the 2019 Jeep Wrangler owners manual, page 4 of the introduction.
“Don’t over load the vehicle”. It’s a teardrop pull along. It’s not hauling cement. What are we supposed to expect?
@@MrChefT its not about total weight so much as tongue weight and the amount of force pushing down when going up and over hills and trails
They are making them only just strong enough for light use and nothing more.
I know I’ve severely overloaded my 96’ f350 on the hitch and no bent frame. Everyone knows those frames flex on uneven terrain.
“You should go back to physics class” -2017 Ford Raptor
keith cunningham your right I haven’t jumped hills while loaded. But towed way more than ford says to
Stamped hydroformed, frames that are fully boxed. "C" channel frames can twist and move without bending or breaking.
funny that he should mention the Raptor considering there have been several with this same failure going over woops. I forget what year model they made a slight tweak to the frame (slightly thinner, different cutouts) but there's some really good info out there on the failures and several aftermarket fixes (most of them bolt-on)
Don’t forget the crash zone BS most cars and trucks have.
Those areas are mint to fold up in crashes.
Exactly.
They will save your ass sometimes...
I've towed a #5000 boat and trailer all over AZ in my '07 Xterra. Including numerous trips on the Apache trail. I still drive my '07 Xterra cause it's frame is in good shape.
Fyi, Xterras and frontiers(pathfinders body on frame of the same eras before the CVT ones) from what ive heard have titan strengrh and consŕuction of frame thus are stronger (when used on a smaller sized vehicle) its practically a shorter version of the titan frame ..... 🤔 i have an 06 Frontier
Thank you for a great video with quality engineering input.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Again absolutely love your channel
Just buy the tent and some half racks and install it on your bed. Done.
Dan knows his stuff
good discussion ,if this was a problem there would be more bent frames, if im out wheelin in my truck and mess it up thats MY BAD, only those involved would no what really happened,i even learned from this.Is there a weak point in frame ? is it suppose to be there for collisions ? i would call a body shop & order a frame. thanks J.P.
OK, this guys exactly right and if you think about it, its quite obvious. the hitch is the point of the forces applied by the trailer, the rear axle is the fulcrum and the frame is like the lever. So the forces applied to the hitch like a weight being applied on the lever with the rear axle and tire as the point of fulcrum trying to leverage up the front end of the truck causing the frame to bend at that point. I think also their can easily be a instance of mechanical resonance from the bumps in the road. Anyone who has done any off reading with speed has experienced a set of bumps that sorta bounce you along in a rhythm that adds up to throw you out of control. These forces and stresses add up on the vehicle as well making what normally could be endured mechanically to a force so great it bends the frame via leverage as described.
I've actually seen semi truck (class 8) Peterbilt tractor frames bend and brake. It can happen! Usually happens when your maxing out the capacity and drive in adverse conditions. last tractor I saw with a broken frame hauled grain/hopper trailer and the terrain to load/unload was really bad. Result, broke frame.
Never understood why trucks that are designed for offroad and heavy towing arent double framed like ours
Some frame expert you picked. He was on the team that allowed Tacoma frames to rot away in 2 years time.
Very good point ^^^^
He was the suspension guy. He said he didn't work on frames that much.
That was poor choice of metal by the higher ups trying to save a buck
@@sebastiencharette6637 Those chassis rot out in 2 years time. (In 2019 they put 2017 on notice) Someone is not doing their job #1
He is also the guy on the team that let the Tacoma’s have severe axle wrap and cracking leaf springs on the off road editions, I had a 2012 Tacoma, you couldn’t get that truck to shift 1-2 without the warping extremely bad to the point it cracked leafs... so they tsb’ed them to replace them to sport package springs, which didn’t help....
Very informative. Great video.
Nice video, appreciate the info
Glad it was helpful!
Solution... just set your truck's bed up for off-roading/camping.
It's the best part about having a truck. You have a massive bed and don't need the trailer.
In fact... after throwing 500 to 1000 lbs into the bed... your truck will ride a lot nicer as well!
Most 1/2 tons and smaller will be overweight with 1000lbs in the bed. My f150 ext cab with 6.5 bed is only good for 500-600 lbs before im not comfortable with how low it sits and how much roll is added. If your on the overload leafs your overloaded, the trucks can pull a bunch more now but the suspension is the limiting factor when it comes to weight in the bed. Want to put 1500lbs in the box buy a onet one or else your going to eventually break something or hurt someone
@@Haulinbassracing
As with everything in life… it does indeed have to be done correctly.
Those extra leaf springs are not called “overload springs”. They are called “secondary leaf springs”.
They are part of the leaf springs system… just left loose so you get a better ride when unloaded AND more flex in the pack when off road.
It literally only takes a few hundred pounds to get them to to touch. If trucks were dangerous to have 1000 lbs in the bed and they are rated for 1500 lbs… the mfrs would rate them lower.
I am having a really hard time picturing someone being able to squeeze more than a few hundred pounds of camping gear into their bed.
But… my reply above was 3 years ago! I don’t even remember the video.
Oh and yes, I was professionally trained to load truck beds with heavy equipt and keep it safe and secure when off roading when I was in the Army a few decades ago. I have just gotten better at it since then.
If you have a Toyota Tacoma... I can understand why you think these things. They cannot even handle 1/2 the weight they are rated for. Which is why most owners end up spending thousands on suspension upgrades. Toyota cheaped out on their frames, suspension, brakes, drivetrain, and much more.
So it sounds like going through the whoops while towing caused forces that emulated a rear end collision.
A lot of people fail to calculate vehicle and payload weight along with trailer tow weight people just think since they have a 4 wheel drive or certain brand of 4 wheel drive and aftermarket suspension they can do anything
I agree throwing in a loaded trailer. The fact the vehicles are not tested in those scenarios gets complicated but also lights the bulb
So moral of the story, going too fast with an offroad trailer will bed the frame. I always drive way slower and more carefully when I have a trailer on.
Title should have been "We SPECULATE Why Jeep Gladiator, Chevy Colorado ZR2 Frames Bent
There’s so many factors and this video is super informative I’d like hear from some Australians those guys have been doing some serious off road towing for years and their trailers or “caravans” reflect that.
They have chimed in if you scroll through the comments. Basically, they say they see this all the time and they have weld on frame kits for their utes to stop it from happening.
Another consideration is the load in the box. If something is heavy near the endgate, that would add additional strain on the frame.
Great Video Tim! Good job with the engineers.
Thanks!
The frames bend because they’re not strong enough...
Not strong enough for what?
The majority of the frames do NOT bend, so it stands to reason that they are strong enough.
@@seanperdue232 Not strong enough for people who actually use a truck to do truck things. Plenty strong for yuppies to haul shopping bags though .
IDK about that, check out The Aussie's Sean and his Fj80. It takes a beating and no bent frame. But again, peeps will drink the koolaide and defend junk!
6:44 lol I've had that happen to me many of times, but always on a dirt bike... Because I care about my truck, I drive it slowly offroad xD
You summed up the discussion pretty well. The bottom line is these “mid-range” vehicles are primarily designed for highway use, because that is what 90+% of consumers use them for. The Gladiator has some off-road features added but definitely not designed to carry a heavy load. We all know that lighter weight makes better fuel economy and is a plus when 4 wheeling, so the engineers design for these characteristics. That is the opposite of what you need to haul heavy loads. When the user adds in high speeds and whoops, they are going to have problems. We should all learn from this.
If GM designed a frame where an inch taller tire could bend it or hurt anything, shame on them. Who buys a 4x4 without planning to go up in tire size? Other than work trucks or trucks that will never see dirt, never mind trails.
Its not that the frame can't handle it, it is the combination of things that contributed.
@@Pickuptrucktalk Watch some Australian overlanding video's where they take Toyota Hilux's with a 10 to 15 foot travel trailer in some instances romping the crap out of them hitting rev limiters smashing through dips, they are probably cracking up at these trucks right now with bent frames and tear drops attached...
Most people don't modify their vehicles. Truck, car, it doesn't matter. 4 out of 5 vehicles on the road are completely stock. 95 percent of the 5th vehicles are "modified" with only aftermarket wheels.
Also, most of the modified trucks are the real pavement queens.
Nobody buys a truck without the ide of modding it
What I learned is that you should buy one of these after they bend the frames for pennies on the dollar then weld support on the frames and wheel the shit out of them!
Or switch them over to a used or brand new frame. Depends what you want to do with the truck
jim nielsen the fix is a backhalf and plating like on the toyotas and f150s
First of all I'm not an engineer. I used to work for a large worldwide supplier to all major vehicle companies. My particular plant made truck frames for a different manufacturer both light truck frames and heavy duty truck frames. As mentioned all the truck frames have numerous holes, different holes have different purposes. One major reason for many of the holes is for alignment on the tooling jigs. There is a huge difference between the gage of steel for light trucks and heavy trucks. The heavy truck frames we made were all c-channel style frames where the light trucks were all boxed.
I think it's the same mechanism that caused the bent Raptor frames; only in that case to was caused more by the speed then weight on the vehicle. It seems to be that is all these cases the axle is coming into the frame bump so hard that they are bending at that point. Ford engineers replied that something has to give; either the truck bucks hard and goes end over end, or the frame bends and you survive.
Australia is a huge market for overland trailers. There roads are far more teresress and longer do they have the same problem? Or is it they may have better vehicles? For example Toyota 79 4 door with a tray back towing a trailer, usually the trailer will come apart way before the vehicle.
Ryan Ramsey Hello from Australia . I have a 2012 LC79 dual cab which I have owned from new I have done lots of heavy towing both on & offroad lots of miles towing horse floats & fuel trailers which have the addition of a dynamic load that is always moving in the trailer . I have always been careful not to have excess ball weight & drive to conditions . The bent chassis I have seen are mostly on Mitsubishi tritons , Nissan Navara's & other midsize Utes one of the big causes has been bolt in airbag kits that are bolted in to compensate for overloading with the addition of a rear bar sporting 2 spare wheels & a caravan loaded up with everything that will fit in it & the tray (cargo bed ) is stuffed full of things that wouldn't fit in the caravan . From talking to people overloading & incorrect loading is a big factor.
Jeep: we are the most customizable brand on earth, unless we don’t like what you did or used the truck for.
Seems strange they are going to deny warranty claims for customizing a brand that was meant to be customized. That is very short term thinking.
They also heavily market them being trail rated and off-road worthy but deny almost all claims if they see dirt anywhere.
My guess about the shocks being too long is that they are bottoming out before the axle contacts the bump stop , this could change the point on the frame that the load is applied to next to the shock mount and right where the frame bent . Also if the shock bottoms out it would be a hard stop unlike a bump stop that would be a cushioned stop . Shocks bottoming out are very common on lifts that don’t extend or move the bump stop
The rear overhang is a key part of the problem; particularly crew-cab vehicles. Some aftermarket receiver hitches can set the ball even further back than others. I'd suspect that the hitch static load was too high to start with, and possibly the truck tray was overloaded leading to bottoming of the rear suspension. When this happens, the inertial loads on the hitch (and bending loads on the frame) go to the moon; beyond the frame's capacity to resist.
Something interesting, after reading this, I found that the new Mojave desert runner Gladiator has a beefed up frame from the factory, hmm. Maybe the Rubicon Gladiator should too?
Where did you read that? I did a video on it and don't recall that being the case. Plenty of items beefed up, but not the frame IIRC.
One of manly Mojave articles: www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2020/02/06/desert-rated-jeep-gladiator-mojave-turns-it-up-to-11/#6b4b9b6c252e@@Pickuptrucktalk
@@Pickuptrucktalk Yes, the Mojave frame has been beefed up specifically for the Mojave package. Google "differences between Rubicon and Mojave" and many articles describe the beefier frame.
Three things, 1-inferior steel metallurgy. 2- light gauge box frame construction. 3- inferior rust proofing. I have a 1984 Chevy K30 and the frame is in excellent condition. There is some surface rust, but it is still solid.
No doubt your '84 K30 frame is bullet proof. It is not designed to nearly the same level of occupant safety for rear end collisions. This is a big factor. Metallurgy science is very advanced today vs. 35 years ago. What makes you think the quality of the steel alloys used in these trucks is poor? Just curious.
@@BowTied69 They rust at the dealership, and they are nothing more boxed sheetmetal.
Great, informative video
Thanks!
That could happen from shock load from off-roading while towing. Anything can bend or break from shock I think
aftermarket shocks can't melt steel frames
poolboy but idiot drivers can lol
Sounds like a conspiracy theory. It was an inside job.
Oh FFS
Underrated comment lol 😂
I love this info Tim. Doing new things bro.
Thanks.
I've never had any problems like that hauling a pop-up trailer down trails like that with a 4x4 Silverado. I don't have many stock parts left on drivetrain or suspension though so idk what would happen to a stock vehicle.
Was expecting video of this an video showing an explaining very informative but. Seeing in action is why i clicked the youtube vid...lol
I haven't read this theory yet, so here it goes.
Back when trucks and jeeps were trucks and jeeps, a degree of flex was built into the frames. This helped absorb forces that we are discussing here but the issue was at speed, with a static load, the tightness and ride quality was not that of a refined passenger vehicle. In a truck from the 70's, you can feel the flex in the frame between the pickup bed and the cab. Much like trees, what flexes doesn't break and always snaps back.
So when they started designing these as passenger vehicles, to demonstrate refinement and ride, they tightened up the frame. So that degree of flex and ability to absorb shock within the frame is gone. In other words, ironically, the frames are way too stiff. Not strong, STIFF. A strong frame with a degree of flex built into it would have helped. That's why modern day class 8 trucks still run a C channel frame, not a fully boxed frame.
To put it another way, watch: czcams.com/video/TXhvwkFIv0o/video.html
Another example is where Chevy and Ford tried to show better quality than Toyota by showing the trucks driving over a bumpy section of road. czcams.com/video/GJZVUnOduH4/video.html
The Toyota always was flexing over the bumps, and they thought this was bad. But when was the last time you saw a Toyota frame bent?
bechtoea not too many. They rust too damn quick to bend
Tacoma frames bend all the time..
@@c4onmylip Pictures of one doing what the Gladiator and Colorado being discussed have done.
How come i don’t see Any Toyota’s bending frames or any full size trucks with bigger trailers. Maybe these little trucks are just not designed very well and were made as light as possible for emissions reasons rather than being strong to handle the abuse of off-road driving
That dan guy is good.
I've seen that on full size trucks. Usually an low experience person, too fast i.e. 20. Mph in a wash board is fast. Hit a hole, bam.
Now we weld frame plates on one side to strengthen, but allowing it to crumple in on the inside in an accident. there's inspection holes to look in... sometimes Theres surface rust but it's not eaten up.
Was it Dan that said I dont like. to use the O word. Lol a true offroad person
Holes in frame are for locating the metal in fixtures while processing .
I've said it before, I'll say it again. My 1988 Ford ranger saw a rough life. Got it when I was 14 had it till I was 22. In that time I abused that truck every day. From hauling 2 to 3 times the payload, to jumping it over water bars on logging trails. I even at one point hooked up a 30 foot inclosed car trailer, with a Chevelle inside and moved moved it into the driveway, and that was not with a hitch set up, that was off the bumper ball. I put that truck through mud holes it should have never made it out of. I hydrolocked the engine, pulled the plugs, spun it over and drove it home. It finally died when I loaned it to a buddy and he fell asleep behind the wheel and rolled it upwards of 7 times ejecting him out and killing him. The remarkable part... The frame was not bent. The axle was half ripped off and with a fresh battery it fired right up. So I'm sorry, but if a brand new truck that is marketed to be an off road type truck, can't handle some woops in the desert with a small trailer on the back, I don't want it.
Yep, agree totally. I have an '87.
7:20 Is the ball coupler designed to avoid this kind of scenario?
Nothing will stop this scenario if the conditions call for it (speed, hills, etc...), this coupler does help improve the odds of avoiding damage.
@@Pickuptrucktalk You are referring to the pintle hitch?
@@BowTied69 yes.
I had gravel in my Jeep frame after I washed it out. To be honest I rarely off road. I don't know how it got in there.
This happened with my 2016 frontier… I load it for work with heavy pallets of tile for work… does anyone know if it can be repaired and what to do ??
Nice to hear with the expert engineers said. But for realistic use these trucks in their stocki configurations are inappropriate for any off-road use
Matthew Huszarik my statement is based upon the last 40 years of vehicles I’ve owned. Take an 85 Dodge ram charger 4x4 loaded with extrication equipment, 30 gallons of fuel a 7.5 ‘wide snow plow and hydraulic winch and mash the accelerator across a mountain trail for 7 miles at 30 mph when 3 to 5 would’ve been smart... Complete the rescue and go back home to find 1) suspension, steering and driveline all intact and in service, plow a frame broke in two areas yet still working.... and do this a dozen times across the life of your vehicle with the same result.
Then consider buying a new Colorado or the jeep pick up. They’re simply not designed for serious or even casual abuse
At Best their pavement pounders at worst they’ll get you and your family stuck somewhere bad and still have years of payments
Matthew Huszarik there’s a company called Dynatrax building a variety of ruggedized specialized axles. Their primary client are the JK jeep crowd. In their stock configuration they (Jo’s) are known for their weaknesses ...so it is precisely as you stated. You would have to start at the axles and completely fortify the frame and or integrate a new chassis. I don’t believe it was because the engineers were ignorant I think they were constrained by expected crash absorption design parameters. Hold onto the Dodge, sounds like something to keep in the family forever
Above 25 mph or so
A stock ZR2 just finished the Mint 400 they're very appropriate for off-road and I use mine personally as a stage rally sweep truck and have no issues. Will I tow an over weighted trailer while doing it. Hell no!
Nicholas Dunn That’s interesting I have to ask if a tubular cage was installed on the vehicle and if it retains the stock shock attachment points
Let me make it easy for you.... poor quality steel being used in the frame materials and thickness are being cut to save weight and maintain EPA MPG requirements. I should be able to tear the trailer hitch off before the frame bends. FGS... it’s only held on by 6-8 bolts.
That's why ford went all aluminum body so they could keep the thicker frame
I know that this is off toppic but,I like the shelfe brackets...thats a great idea
Great video. Thanks.
Trucks aren't built like they used to be. They're built to be more car like.
I bet a colorado frame is 2x as strong as a 3/4 ton truck from 1990 or before. It is no different than a crash between a 2020 and a 1990 or before car. What one would you want to be in?
@@gamesofcontent 1990 can still be very drive able afterwards tho
Honda Ridgeline is the most 'car like' truck there is yet there are no bent frame issues. It's just poor and cheap design on the part of the American automakers
In my opinion, the frame is to thin
If I can dent it with a hammer... Yes it is haha.
These things are grocery getters.
Too thin
John Hughes hell, a 95 ranger frame wouldn’t bend like this!
That's the truth. Even full-size 1/2 tons like the F150 have frame walls that are only around .085" thick. They're getting thinner and thinner, and eventually in adverse situations they're gonna fail.
Oh wait ?
@@Resistculturaldecline they're all trying to save weight to get 1 more MPG to keep your wallet full and happy... until the frame bends.
I think it's interesting that in the case of both vehicles featured here, slide in campers are not recommended by the manufacturers.
The response to 'bigger tires being an issue' didn't include the likelihood of airing down during off-road use. This generally softens the ride and let's the tires do some of the suspension work, which (I would think) lessens the forces on the frame and shocks/suspension.
That is the answer. . . Be a smart off road driver.
I own a2022 colorado and I reinforced the fram at the problem area now I carry @ 1200lb slide in camper and tow less then 3000 lbs with no problems
The thing I know about trailers are not of the off-road versions but for semi-trailers & I do know the toll road in PA, going into NJ & at the few times I had to drive that route, even though its 55 for semi-trailers there, it wise to go less than 15 due too the whoops! & one time I saw the aftermath of one semi-driver not slowing for them & breaking their 5th wheel & kingpin(along with other damages to their semi) it was all due too driver error or in this case, driving to fast for the road conditions, which I know does translate 100% to pulling a trailer off-road as well! Plus, I know you don't follow the person in front of you at their rate but one that is ok for what you're driving! Back in 1999, someone with a little hatchback civic was tailgating me around a sharp bend of the public(paved) roads & lost it due too they didn't have a setup that allowed them to take that corner at the speed I was going(40 around a 15) I've been around that corner many times before(even at higher speeds) but seeing the light debris(mostly leaves, but there was mud & sticks too) I slowed a bit to make the corner knowing what to do in my semi-rear lifted pick-up(stock front with a 2 inch lifted rear for towing) & they still ended up bounced off into the corn field as they lost traction! ie: if your new to something(road, vehicle or maneuver) try it slower then normal 1st & feel it out! Not good at driving in the snow?! Find a large snow covered parking lot that has no or ever few vehicles in it! Haven't off-roaded with a certain setup?! Try it on a easy course! But mostly, have someone there that knows what they are doing 1st before trying anything! There are many people/clubs out there for these things! Look into them!
Load, Axis, Angle, Weight, Terrain, Resistance, Pressure, Kinetic Energy, Speed, all play key roles in the frame being bent! Worked for Toyota for 13 Years, Master Tech. And ASE Certified! Plus 10 Years Independent!
I’ll stick with my 80 series Landcruiser, thanks.
I’ll stick to my 97 TJ 2.5. Love those 4 angry squirrels.
This is unfortunate. Though I must say, It never happened in my 2016 Chevy 2500, and I’ve towed near max while full-timing for 2 years. It’s a shame the manufacturers won’t honor their warranty. Hope it works out.
I have a thought as to why the Colorado and Gladiator bent where they did aside from the trailers weight. If you notice they both bent in the same spots dang near. The reason why for this is that there is no structural rigidity between the bed and the cab. It's the same kind of effect of a bridge without it's trusses would lack it's structural rigidity. How often do you see an SUV bend it's frame in this way?
What works good on road doesn't work too well off roading and vice versa. Frames have many design elements to them, strength, safety, fuel economy (weight) etc. With so many vehicle configurations its hard to make one that is perfect in every situation. Without good information and pictures, its difficult to tell what exactly caused it, but since both vehicles where towing trailers, that is a good place to look at. I was doing some background studies on light utility trailer towing and found that with a class 3 hitch, if one leaves their receiver mount in and they get rear-ended, it would be enough to kink or bend the frame, so this does make total sense, a good "pull back" or "sudden" shock load could in-fact bend the frame. If you look at it in terms of "fall protection" a 220lbs worker that falls 6 feet can place a strain of 2500lbs (without a shock absorber system) which is a lot of shock weight, so you can imagine a 2,000lbs trailer and a 200lbs tongue weight without a shock absorber system can do to a frame, it does not take much! speed, weight will always be an enemy.
wonder if it will be seen in half ton pickups giving them increasingly higher tow ratings when you really should tow with 3/4 or 1 ton single rear wheels. and duells for the 20,000
remocres It will not last. Overloaded trailers can be towed with many trucks, but many trucks can’t safely stop these heavy weight. For my money, give me a bigger truck.
I would think a pintle hook would provide more flexible but could also introduce a slide hammer effect ?
More flexibility
The fact the rear axle is forward of the mid point of the bed in both truck will tell everyone that is creating a weak spot under certain circumstances! The fact this has not yet happened to a long bed crew cab Colorado, or even Ext bed Colorado might support my ideas!