What Writers Get Wrong About The Hero's Journey - John Bucher
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
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John Bucher is a mythologist, storyteller, and writer based out of Hollywood, California. He serves as Executive Director for the Joseph Campbell Foundation and is an author, podcaster, and speaker. He has worked with government and cultural leaders around the world as well as organizations such as HBO, DC Comics, The History Channel, A24 Films, Atlas Obscura, and The John Maxwell Leadership Foundation. He has served as a producer, consultant, and writer for numerous film, television, and Virtual Reality projects. He is the author of six books including the best-selling Storytelling for Virtual Reality, named by BookAuthority as one of the best storytelling books of all time. John has worked with New York Times Best Selling authors, CZcams influencers with followings of more than 2 million, Eisner winners, Emmy winners, Academy Award nominees, and cast members from Saturday Night Live. He holds a PhD in Mythology & Depth Psychology and has spoken on 6 continents about using the power of story and myth to reframe how individuals, organizations, cultures, and nations believe and behave.
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#writer #writing #story
He’s a hell of a teacher ❤
I'm not a writer but this was brilliant: clearly articulated and thought-provoking.
John's indepth knowledge and mastery of his craft instills fire in my soul to want to write a great story. Even his unique way of answering questions is story like. What an amazing guy!
Love that analogy of the glass vase. Agreed. Too many storytellers strap themselves to a formula.
John Bucher, pastor of the Church of the Written Word 📖
I like to differentiate between a "Story" and "stuff happens". And yes, conflict is absolutely at the heart of this, at every level. It's surprising how easy it is to miss the mark on that when writing.
I love when I can see how much someone else LOVES story!! John just made my heart smile bc I can feel his passion for the art form I love so much!! It literally makes me feel giddy inside, don’t laugh I’m being serious!! 🤣❤
Keep an eye out for more of our segments with John!
Have been looking forward to more videos from John - thank you for posting! He has such passion and knowledge for the story and story tellers. It's an inspiration to learn from him.
This interview is one of our best of the year. Much more to come. We love John's style as well!
this is very good, get John interview more often!
Cheers! Here is everything we have published with John thus far - tinyurl.com/mt57zj33
@@filmcourage oh, Ive check all of them already haha. Hope there is more coming or more chance for another interview. keep up the good work!
Definitely much more to come! And we will see down the line!
incredible speaker, well done
This was absolutely wonderful and insightful. The analogy with a smashed vase was so helpful!
What I find important here is this: if you as an artist write a story, one of the things that a good artist will do is question their own authority. They will ask during the writing, 'am I doing my job?' They will ask after the fact, 'have I done my job?'
If you try to understand the Hero's Journey and apply it as if it were a recipe, and compare what you have to that recipe, with luck (and based to some degree on your level of talent), you will find most of those elements were placed inside your story automatically, because you (and everyone) know these things instinctively. You will also find that certain ingredients may have been left out. A common reaction to that is to assume that you have failed, because what you accomplished didn't have all elements of that recipe or didn't have them in a particular rigid order.
That can be very problematic for an artist. But it does not have to be. What John is telling us is that how we apply the elements during the telling of our story is up to us, and if we feel that our story works, that's what's important. Not that it must mirror a precise formula. Not having every element or not having them in precise order with precise timing is not a mistake or an oversight. What typically happens is these are based on artistic decisions made on purpose to make a particular story work in a particular way. And that is how all good stories are created.
George Lucas didn't set out to follow a recipe. What he did is used the concepts of the Hero's Journey as a guideline to massage his story, a story created by him, into a particular better shape, after the fact. He used what worked to improve what he had. He did not sacrifice what already worked for the sake of following a formula that didn't precisely reflect what he knew in his heart that his story should be. So let's do what George did.
It doesn't work to look at the Hero's Journey as if it were a shortcut. We can't expect to base our work on something already hammered out by someone else. And that's exactly what a recipe is, is a shortcut, based on work already completed by the author of that recipe. We have to do that work ourselves. There are no shortcuts.
So if you look at the Hero's Journey as if it were a form, a suggestion, an explanation of how the elements of story can work together, then when you look at your work, you realize that it is not required to mimic a recipe, and that it doesn't have to conform precisely to any example that might have been presented to you.
The Hero's Journey is there as a tool. It's there to give you a starting point, and where you take it is up to you. Joseph Campbell was not trying to tell us that we should attempt to pre-engineer our storytelling based on a precise recipe. He was merely pointing out that there is a basic general pattern that is nearly universal.
That's the takeaway. That won't make you feel as if you have failed. That will make you feel as if you're on the right track, after all.
John's passion and enthusiasm is just brilliant! Again, thank you!
Storytelling is a form not a formula! Brilliant 🎉
Great videos on this channel. Loving these interviews. Thanks Karen and the team.
What a superb communicator. Thank you.
What do you like about this one?
I like John's explaination about a character moving away from a place of boredom and then coming back a different person who livens up the place and has something new to share with the community.
Thank you for posting this video! I like the question you posed at 6'50" - i never would have considered the hero's journey from that view point. Thank you!
Thank you. I enjoyed how he stated that you don’t have to view it happening in the exact order of the Campbell structure.
I've always thought about a story like it's a mosaic or some jigsaw that is unique for every storyteller. It's good to hear that I'm not alone in this approach.
Wow! You are both incredible! So rich! Thanks for being there on the internet! Excellence!
Well…….
I commented before on
Mr. Buchar’s story telling abilities!!!!
His tone, pace, and emotion…. Lends itself generously in his pointed explanations!!
I’ve not seen his work as yet….. but if their 1/10th of his verbal acumen……Fandango can expect my order for tickets anytime now!
Thanks Film Courage,
for another killer interview with the consummate interviewer “ Karen “….. and….. this virtual MASTER CLASS….by this unique artist.
Merry Christmas guys 🎄
🎼RAIN RAIN🎼
Buchar
I’m glad this guy teaches story instead of selling bridges in Brooklyn cause I’d buy them all.
Brilliantly explained!
good interview and explanation
1:50 👌👌👌
3:15 Final Phase
7:35 Conflict & Scenario 💪
9:20
Powerful!
Very insightful. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Great lesson. 💯
I didn’t do it consciously, since it’s been well over a decade since a decade since I read about it; but I definitely used this in my novel.
Not strictly but the structure is there.
This has helped me a lot.
Great to hear!
I’ve never really understood the reason for all these rules and explanations about movies, especially on this channel.. I’m pretty sure most movies does not look or learn about all this before making the scripts. Most movie stories are kind of just writing themselves.. All this is of course good stuff if you have no idea what story you want to make.. But if you DO have a story in your head, all this just comes naturally as you explore the story..
All this explanation is still interesting, and good for schools, but it’s all kind of given if you are just a little into movies and stories.
Funny enough, I just went through much of this thinking and writing process setting up a TTRPG character for a new player. I set up a very mundane existence for her, prior to the start of the adventure, and had a terrific "call to action." (it helped that I mimicked her real-life work frustrations in the fictional setting.) At this point, she's still sort of in the "fish out of water" section of the early part of her character's journey. (the game is Shadowrun, just fyi.)
Thank you
Cheers Sam!
Guy better be a good writer, because this was about as unconvincing a pro wrestling promo I've seen in a while lol
I'm surprised that Film courage doesn't receive more likes even if video is new. I'm not a bot I'm a 3D animator who likes learning. I always come to these videos to have an understanding of story. Someone with my capability's can benefit greatly from the knowledge gained here. So, thanks for making these videos. 👍
Thank you for the comment! Love to see you finding value here!
I understand this. It creates a story character development that can create good stories. However, it is sort of convention now. I just shot a film I scripted my own way. It ends depressing with questions. The hero journey is a norm, but shouldn't be. My film starts off with a kiss, and ends with him alone depressed. The end. But does the subject matter clue the viewer? Damn rights! Structure & visualize the best you can. Develop the world... No holds barred!
That was absolutely captivating!
This is why I use The Creative Continuum. It is both a beat by beat, up to 245 beats actually. But it doesn't just use story. It uses psychology. So the psychology side has the trust segment where a character needs to be cared for in some way. Once that need is covered they trust someone and develop hope in the future. The fourth scene in this segment is a resisting that change, refusal of the call. The Heros Journey is a formula for story and life, because they sre synonymous. The giving back stage you talk about, Generativity, is about feeling the need to be who you are. You see how that is covered, becoming generous, and developed the ability to care. The Heros Journey is about both growth and coming back because that's how humans work. But it breaks down story's which are examples of life. I use the Creative Continuum because it's a direct look at life and how each action turns into changing emotions and beliefs in scenes, which then covers their needs and gives them values for how they improve themselves. Love the heros journey, but I use something far stronger now. It's not only about getting story, but also dissecting memories in order to develope your fiction about relatable fact.
Sounds interesting. Is Creative Continuum in an app or a book? What’s a good source to learn more about it?
If you actually read the book, the first half talks about what we're all familiar with -- after that it kind of falls apart.
Is Creative Continuum an app or a book, or is it something else?
At best, Joseph Campbell identified one type of mythic story among many; but there is nothing universal or foundational about the Hero's Journey, and Campbell gained more attention than he deserved because of George Lucas. But as noted here, the Hero's Journey is best viewed as a form, not a formula that must be followed. Similarly, writers should jettison the notion that the protagonist or secondary characters in a story must always have a redemption arc.
I think the hero's journey places storytelling in a box.
I like this guy.
Code geass's ending is fun, more like anti-hero (only viewers, comrades would consider him as hero :) And then there's Final Fantasy 7: Crisis Core which ends with "Would you say I became a hero?" :D
Haven't played Crisis Core yet, you completely ruined it for me now 😛 Will see if I can get to it before Rebirth launches though 👍
@@stiankallhovd7041my condolences 😂 it's worth playing (played it on ps emulator)
I’d pay money to listen to this guy order starbucks drive thru.
Sounds like a fun scene to write!
yea... absolutely....😁
There is usually some idiotic assumption about a collective subconscious where this is all stored, or something like that, when it seems to work purely by story logic and motivation. Plus tradition and choice, of course.
OMG, The Man who comes from the artistic heaven has came to us again ❤❤
More to come!
best way to understand the heroes journey is study myths before reading Campbells word and really understand mythology before using carbon copy templates. Remember Prometheus was eventually saved by Hercules. Especially conflict is a Western concept that does not ring true to collective storytelling ❤
just like Jesus coming back from India. Brilliant.
- I want to become a writer
- you need the form
- what’s the form?
- every writer knows about it
- but I’m not one yet
- tough cookies. Bye
You just wanna hear dude talk about storyALL DAY, twice on Sunday.
Definitely more to come! Have you seen the previous clips? - czcams.com/video/woiCxsRej10/video.html
Have to disagree. The hero's journey is absolutely an allegory for enlightenment. You can't get treasure without going through a personal transformation.
Here is a snippet of allegory’s definition……
“As a literary device or artistic form, an ALLEGORY; is a narrative or visual representation in which a character, place, or event can be interpreted to represent a meaning with moral or political significance. Authors have used allegory throughout history in all forms of art to illustrate or convey complex ideas and concepts in ways that are comprehensible or striking to its viewers, readers, or listeners.”
Soooo,@wexwuthor1776
Everything you describe….
Is EXACTLY everything
Mr. Buchar has ELEQUENTLY outlined in his pristine delivery on this topic!
……. Whether it’s Dorothy’s journey back to Kanas….or 2001 movie RAT RACE …. where the journey ended with everyone giving back the money…… to help starving children…….
Truly…… reminding us …. what’s “ HEROIC” after all.
You both agree on “ outcome “…. irregardless if it’s allegorical or metaphorical?….. of course……. I could be not understanding your take very well too?
Either way…..
Merry Christmas 🎄
🎼RAIN RAIN 🎼
Misguided take. The hero's journey is not only about a conscious search for a personalised enlightenment. It's part of the consequences but not the end goal. That's what he meant in the video that the journey doesn't end there and no revelation is final.
@@anurag3619Enlightenment is the tree upon which all fruit grows. Everything the hero does is a result of understanding his or her personal power.
@@wexwuthor1776yes it comes from personal enlightenment, but as repeated several times, it does not END there.
An enlightenment experience is an expansion of awareness not only of one’s own nature and the nature of the world around, but also the nature of other people. You can’t really “stay” in the infinite unmanifest because there’s no time or anything other than potential “there.” When you “come back” to consensus reality, you naturally want to tell others about the deeper aspects of themselves and the world. If you have no impulse to help others, that’s not enlightenment. That’s another kind of stuckness, fixation, delusion that you aren’t connected.
I haven’t watched this yet, because the the title of the video is “What Writers Gets Wrong…” For the love of god please fix it.
Great points, but this guy needs to lose the “smooth jazz radio” voice.
Sorry' But the heros journey must be of a selfish nature from the start ' to engulf ourselves
in His/Protagonists Vehicle of Adventure!
The hero’s journey is barely a real thing.
the young always say that...
No it’s just a fact. At 38 I appreciate the sentiment though.
@@latenightlogicI'm 74. You'll learn
@@dai19721 czcams.com/video/4288NRq1vVc/video.htmlsi=TF6FTdl1H9rGCXT4
@@latenightlogic I'm 74 I'm wiser ur just 38. You never stop learning new things
Hollywood Films From 2000 - today (2023) .... _Current Actors_ who are *hammy/ wooden* ....with
*Forced heavy dialogue* ....
*Contemporary Hollywood movies are terrible*
There are *better storytellers on* : CZcams/ Facebook/ on Twitter...
The *problems are these so called professional writers* .
Thank you
No wonder films are so bad w analyses like this floating about. To take on the worst point. Moby-Dick is not anything like the Hero's Journey- itself a cliche that is affixed to only a small % of tales- usually trite ones.
Ishmael is no hero, and is just an observer. That he survives to tell the tale is just happenstance in the diegetic universe. Melville's greatest book is an argument against and an indictment of the Campbellian nonsense. The film is on the fallibility of men and their folly. That only 1 man survives, and it is by accident, emphasizes this. No grand secrets are revealed, there is no return and hailing of the hero.
And this is one of the major reasons Moby-Dick is one of the 10 greatest published works of literature and all the Monomyth crap is pulp fiction.
Campbell was a fraud and the monomyth his distortion of world literature via the lens of an ii read and even worse understanding man. Beowulf and Biblical tales and Gilgamesh and countless others argue against the Monomyth as central to tale telling. Most fables stand in opposition to it, and thus the hero's Journey has only pulp options like comic books and space operas as its domain, and these are properly the domain of the young. For the bulk of humanity, deeper, longer, more existential art is desired and needed.
I'm so bored of this gobbledygook bushwa. This is why every script is the same, why no one colors outside the lines, why cliches abound, why everything is predictable. All these people who do this are descendents of Robert McKee and the other two bozos who have wreaked such nonsense over the years. You think any of the great screenwriters ever thought about this stuff? No, they did not. They thought about character, structure, and plot, and went their own way, which is why there were so many diverse films in the Golden Age. But, whatever makes you money, which is all this is about.
Fan. TASTIC. ❤❤❤❤ Thank you!!!