1850's Self Defense: The Allen & Thurber Pepperbox
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
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The Allen & Thurber Pepperbox is a no frills double action only smoothbore 32 caliber revolver. The pepperbox had one purpose and one purpose only: self defense.
There's a lot of myth and lore surrounding this interesting firearm, and in this video we simultaneously confirm, but also bust, some "common knowledge" about this frequently maligned firearm.
There are no real reproductions of the Pepperbox on the market, and the majority of originals are not functional, or damaged beyond repair.
The Traditions "pepperbox" as well as any other "pepperbox" on the market are junk and bare no functional resemblance nor design principles with the original. I do not recommend them.
I owned 2 of them. Earlier serial numbered ones index to the left. If you shot it too much the screw would come out and the gun would fall apart. Side note, don't drink and gunbroker.
The sawed off revolver ones do have some historical precedent! Ian had a period one on his channel, as I recall it appeared to be a home gunsmithing job, but does indicate that it's something people might have done, whether or not it was a good idea
Well thanks for the info I may have to just get an old one that looks nice as a wall hanger, Even if they did make a good reproduction I can't see my self shooting it much.
A "sawed off revolver" is not a Pepperbox. I have one of those myself which I have replicated and will discuss that later.
@@InrangeTv I agree with you totally! Just felt it was relevant since you mentioned the janky Traditions ones! I look forward to that video greatly
Casually gets 1st on a pistol stage with an antique, the inrange way
Likely a cowboy subdivision where everyone had weapons from the same period
@@gholland5840
"1st of 36 shooters."
I would venture not. I don't think the backup gun matches really have divisions. From what I understand, it is just a fun, "run what you brung" match, that is tailored to low round count, close range firearms.
@@gholland5840 I think backup gun match is just 1 pistol, maximum 5 shots loaded (and no reloads allowed/required on stage) and maybe some limits on weight/size (not sure about that, though). So no divisions or anything like that. At least that's my understanding from seeing Ian's videos of these.
@@dposcuro The BUG match here has divisions. There's BUG Pistol and BUG Revolver (must fit in the BUG box to qualify), Hideout (must fit in the even smaller Hideout box to qualify) and Big 5 (anything too big to fit into the aforementioned boxes). Big Five is like Open class, just about anything goes, but you have to start with only 5 rounds in the initial magazine which generally forces a reload on every stage. I generally run my Beretta 81BB, and with its 12+1 capacity I almost never have to reload on a stage.
It's worth a mention that the hammer and ramrod should be made of a non-sparking material, i.e. not steel. Note that everything Karl had on the table, except his knife and screwdriver, are brass for that reason.
Correct! :)
The rammers used in the loading of cap and ball revolvers were steel, so were most ramrods used to load military muskets
@@deadhorse1391 And people used to shoot without hearing/eye protection until very recently. Doesn't make it a good idea.
Don't tell OSHA but I used to work on gas pumps without buying the required non-sparking tools due to the phobitive cost... Luckily brass tools for black powder are relatively inexpensive, so I've always valued my appendages more, atleast during hobby time 😁👍
@@TheGunner11 I think the chance of an iron ram rod causing a gun to go off is non existent in
Even if it did cause a spark which is very unlikely a tight fitting ball would be between the spark and the powder charge
Personally I would worry more about loading the barrels out of the gun with caps on the nipples but even then as long as you don’t drop them and the cap gets hit shouldn’t have any problems...things would get exciting though if it did.
I saw an original 1860 go off as it was being loaded before. Had been used with paper cartridges and I think it had an paper ember in the chamber that set the loose powder off when loaded from the flask.
Very lucky that the flask didn’t go up.
modern gun designers: here is a high capacity 9mm pistol, it is the best solution for self-defense
Karl: lemme introduce you to a 170 yo pepper boi
Here we're about the oldies but goodies
Now I want to reintroduce a new version of this for the younger, hip-hop generation, the Pepper Boi.
" here is a high capacity 9mm pistol, it is the best solution for self-defense"
I thought you were talking about the pepperbox lol.
shut up and take my money!
@@danielbretall2236 sounds like something Hi-Point might do
Always odd how people will claim a gun like this was useless when it was quite popular in its day. People weren't stupid, if it didn't work, they wouldn't be using it.
It was the civilians gun, since he didn't manufacture for the government, but they find these pistols on battle fields I have one I did a video on with the bullet mold and powered Flask I need the ram rod
Yeah, because no useless things is popular nowadays right?
There is nothing pppular today that is not crap and people do it just because everyone else is doing right?
"I am not advocating this for modern carry"
Me, a respectable individual:
"Tally ho, ye mugger!"
The perfect accessory being a sword cane. Five shots and cold steel
Just as the Founding Fathers intended...
Chainfiring a pepper box: a feature not a bug
QUAD damage
Bethesda developed it. The chain fire is just the random critical hit chance working as intended.
probably better against a single target
As much as aesthetics should only be a minor consideration in choosing a firearm, I think pepperboxes are very charming weapons. I suspect that played a part in their popularity too.
I do too!
Same, I kinda wish for a modern take on it. Think a semiauto micro gatling.
An elegant weapon for more civilized times.
I think you are right
Well, that depends on your goals. If your goal is to have an effective self-defense weapon, then, yeah, aesthetic doesn't matter.
But if you want to have a cool gun?
You mean there were Bubbah's in the 1830's / 1840's who were sloppy at loading their pepperbox? I'm shocked, Shocked! I tell you.
Well, not that shocked.
@@forrest6132 We call it being tasered these days.
I had always believed the myth that the pepperbox was dangerous and unreliable, it is really great to see one used properly and old nonsense put to bed. keep up the excellent work karl 👍
Dangerous? Nah. Unreliable? Nah. Inaccurate? Yeah lol
Hey, if you're trying to sell some unsafe, unreliable early single action revolvers in the late 1830s, you're going to need some attack ads against the competition...
Kinda funny how it caught on huh...lol like how many folks like to bag on Hi-Point even though they make an economically feasible +p firing pistol, and as of 2021 shot show double stack too.
To be fair it probably was if people didn't maintain them correctly, and my guess is a lot of people didn't maintain them correctly.
Even today there's tons of people who barely ever clean their guns but because they have a glock it just keeps working.
@@stilllife8 or it goes further back to flint lock pepper boxes
Never thought I’d see a video about the tactical application of a pepperbox, this channel is the best
Your black powder content is probably the best on the internet.
Karl and capandball are the 2 best channels.
@@KR-hg8be I like Mike Bellevue on duelist1954 as well.
Cap and ball is also up there in terms of quality.
britishmuzzleloaders is absolutely worth taking a look at. He's excellent.
capandball offers a retort
That's a pretty decent muzzle velocity. I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of that either.
More than s333
an unrifled muzzle loader being more accurate than a rifled .22LR pistol. Now THAT's impressive!
To you maybe it's most impressive.
But to me, here in God's green 2021 as we slip fall and demonstrably struggle to stay where we're at let alone get back up...
I'd say, it's just a Thursday *_; P_*
I am currently writing a tabletop RPG system and universe that incorporates 19th century blackpowder weaponry, the pepperbox will be included. Thank you for bringing this adorable creature to my attention, Karl.
Sounds great!
The GURPS system includes a pepperbox in the High Tech supplement, along with twelve other 1800s revolvers
When I was a kid and people still played board games our version of clue had a little tin pepperbox revolver for the "pistol" in the game. Funny how things change but stay the same
Critical Role did this as well, check out Percy and see how they did their system.
@@tazman40k4 In hindsight with this video, Percy's pepperbox is hilarious. Weighs 5 pounds, has an accurate range of 100 feet, can be completely reloaded in a matter of seconds, and is often rendered inoperable by a misfire. It's like the complete opposite of what a pepperbox actually was.
My family has one that belonged to my great-great-grandfather, who carried it for personal use during civil war. Has 5 notches on grip, which we assume to be battles as he saw 5 battles before being wounded and mustered out.
Usually notches are kill counters...
Notches are normally indicating kills
That would be kills with said weapon was very common in the old days of the country
Clearly I need to start a percussion nipple repair service for pepperboxes so I can have the most niche business ever.
ideally you just start making them! I bet there are a few collectors who would buy a well made modern replica!
@@AYellowPepper start with repairing them, them move into making new production. i think you could probably drill out the old nipples, then tap the hole and add in with a modern screw in nipple.
@@MrPhoenixpro that's actually a genius idea for how to repair them
@@AYellowPepper I'd buy one.
That sounds like a great idea. A little bit of new material added on top, then grind/file it to a good shape. Plus, you'd probably be **forced** to test them out to make sure they fire ;)
Karl, it has been so rare to see any information about the workings of a pepperbox. I remember years ago trying to find out more about them, with little success. Thank you for doing so. I would love to have a repro of one of these!
Glad it was helpful! There are no legitimate reproductions of Pepperboxes and I doubt we'll ever see one. The things on the market now are junk.
@@InrangeTv Ian has a video from 5 years ago on a pepperbox, but he wasn't able to dis-assemble it. You should loan him this one when you get a chance so we can see how the internals work :) I appreciate you running this in the BUG match for us that was pretty cool.
@@taogold6022 its probably not much different from a standard double action pistol of that period tbh, just has an extended hammer. The location of the hand etc are very similar to standard revolvers.
I know of a couple of gunsmiths that could re-machine/replace the damaged/destroyed nipples. Anything can be fixed, it is just a matter of how much money you want to throw at the problem. Absolutely great video!!
Would it be viable to drill out the cones and tap the holes to accept nipples?
@@Terry_Fritz looks like it. Even if you had to machine your own nipples due to size constraints it looks like you could drill it out tap it and add a nipple. I would assume because it takes the same size percussion cap that any standard Italian repro nipple would not be too big to be made to work
Use stainless steel rivets. You can thread one end and prepare the originals. I use rivets for firing cap nipples in cap locks I've made. It's not too hard to figure out how to make it work.
the idea of someone whipping out their pepperbox in self defense and it chain firing 6 rounds directly into their attacker all at once is kind of an entertaining thought
Very cool gun, have a comment from a student in the war againt the algorithm
4:19 Additionally, the projectile out of a chain-firing revolver chamber never generates effective velocity since it does not have the barrel there to evolve the full discharge pressure.
A chain-firing pepperbox projectile develops full pressure.
True.
Lmao more accurate than the 333.
I could chuck pebbles more accurately than that POS.
😂
S666 👹
@Robert Sears it wasnt
That's got some significant muzzle velocity not just for the day but even today. Very cool and the 333 razzie at the end was perfect.
10:15 Thanks for having converted that into the metric system, that's kind to us European viewers of the channel
or for any other viewer outside of the US
@@stevenwoods8267 Canadians and Brits still use imperial (Even though technicality the US doesn't use it), Canada still almost exclusively uses it.
Yah, this was a great video. I've never seen one live fired before.
Holy crap I learned so much about old firearms just in this video. I never knew that little nozzle on the powder flask helped you measure a charge. I remember seeing this weapon represented in only one movie: North and South when Kirstie Alley blew that guy away with one.
Karl has a pepperbox and a screw-driver Pukko: weird wild west loadout but not one i'd mess with.
I kind of want to see a modified pepperbox that fires two barrels per trigger pull now.
That would be like a vintage S333 Thunderstruck
why not all six barrels?
@@OberGefreiterZ Just salvo it all in there, huh? You know... if it's a muzzle loader, NFA doesn't apply. Snub nose 20ga! That say "hi, how ya doin" in a big damn way.
Pro tip: will only work if you treat your customers like crap
@@OberGefreiterZ That's called a shotgun. As Kevin D points out, at that point you may do better to stick to one shot at a time, make it in .615-calibre and load it with paper packets of 18 .225 balls. Even if you make it single-shot, at that point you have one SCARY piece of fully functional pirate costume.
Getting 1st in any stage with an antique gun is incredible. I bet some of the other competitors became a little self-conscious.
In 200 years some dude’s going to posit that the Hi Point was an affordable and viable self defense option during the wild Covid era of America.
They wouldn't be wrong. It's a piece of shit but it's not totally obsolete, and it is definitely affordable. A gun's a gun.
@@marmite8959 The only problem I have with it is the disassembly.
So what you're saying is I need to start a business that exclusively makes modern pepperbox revolvers. Got it.
The manufacturing cost will quickly outstrip the minimal demand and you'll lose your shirt.
@@InrangeTv so you're saying I'll also look sexy doing it? Nice.
@@InrangeTv I will peddle my wares shirtless if needs be. Also, DEFCAD has some tantalizing pepperbox 22's worth risking a hand over....
Interesting fact- John Singleton Mosby, of “Mosby’s Rangers” fame, killed his first man with a pepper box pistol, in a self defense Incident at the University of Virginia as i remember. Before the war began.
Had he only been killing women up to that point?
@@brabhamfreaman166 He had to start somewhere, but he only killed sinful women.
@@brabhamfreaman166 or as they used to say, "not counting indians and mexicans"
Fascinating. I'd always heard the lore - they were the gun equivalent of a Chevy Corvair - unsafe at any speed. Thank you for dispelling, Karl.
if the cost was about half a colt, i could see myself rather carrying two of those than one rifled revolver back in those days.
Or buying one and saving the rest for... something.
Idk, get drunk?
Carry 5 of them. They look pretty light weight. The firepower!
I concur ! ! ! 😎👍
Really appreciate all the hard work you do to bring us new/old and fun information. I learn so much watching your videos.
This is really the kind of stuff I love from InrangeTV - going back in time and showing us technology and history of the day. Thanks for sharing Karl, and please keep bringing us this kind of content!
Ditto!
Super interesting! I had no idea that multi-shot firearms existed prior to the introduction of revolvers. I know volley-fire guns did exist, which fired multiple rounds at once from multiple barrels. But having 6 shots with 6 trigger pulls must have been quite revolutionary compared to a single-shot pistol. Absoluteky fantastic congent!
Do some looking into the Girandoni Air Rifle from the late 1700s. Now that was some blessed repeating fire power for it's time. ^.-.^
@@Beuwen_The_Dragon I'll definitely have to aquaint myself more with pre American Civil War firearms. And general history too. It's hard to know where to begin, as American history is so vast and full of events.
YoU wanna see that 1500s revolver. Even multi barrel handgonne.
Hearing someone credit "Viewers Like You" really brings back fond memories of Tuesday-evening NOVA on PBS...
Thank you for posting this to CZcams also thanks for all you do! And keep the old west/1800s content coming! We all appreciate it
Hope you're doing well Karl. Thanks for the interesting and entertaining content. Algorithm engagement comment complete.
Much appreciated!
I acknowledge your comment and validate it by replying.
@@tamlandipper29 more replies in case validation is incomplete.
@@andersbendsen5931 Can't hurt.
"In this instance I've got a knife I 'converted' into a screwdriver."
Love this guy lol
I’m so glad you went to the effort of actually getting together a working pepperbox for our edification. Fantastic work as always Karl
I love how you and Ian really show the real history and dispell the myths out there. Like keep up the good work. That was pretty informative and well worth the watch.
"If it chain fires you really only get more rounds on target"
And more recoil
I love this, and would really enjoy seeing the whole BUG match using this piece.
I appreciate your editing, Karl. It's a lovely artifact, worthy of scene transitions.
Another excellent romp challenging historical myths! I hva been traveling overseas for quite a few years exploring the planet. You give me my firearms fix and alter many of my past beliefs regarding them with actual experience! Thank you!
I love these weird black powder gun videos. This one´s up there with the blunderbus.
nice how in the end bullets from the pepperbox hit the target "in pairs"
Just bought one of these pepperboxes today, really interesting vid! Thank you and keep up the good work
Love seeing these old firearms and am very impressed by your thoughts and analysis, as well as the, quite frankly, incredible results you get with them (1st of 36?!?!)
I do remember seeing/hearing that these types of pistols were prone to "chainfire"; is the fact that powder can come out of the cones, if you load powder before percussion caps, perhaps a factor here?
Your solution of placing the percussion caps first seems to be the perfect solution in any case..
Thanks so much for this fascinating and practical look at a much-maligned piece of history.
Great video, thanks! I would love to hear more about the history of the CCW culture, and this kind of stuff. Fantastic
Lovely video! It's excellent to see one of these working well. Id love to see a direct comparison between these mid 19th c guns one day!
And that dig at the end 😂😂
I really enjoy this type of content covering real world use of historic firearms. Thanks so much!
It's really cool to see these types of guns not only fired but used in a match, thanks for sharing, love the channel!
Would like to see velocity testing against a regular .32 revolver with the same load so that the impact of cylinder gap could be illustrated.
I would love to see a Replica of this with rifled Barrles! If that improoves the accuracy to ~20 yards i would say that it would be a direct alternative to any double action! Even compared to more "Modern" black power revolvers! and would kick the crap out of single actions competetively!
Awesome presentation, always wondered about those in a realistic sense. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great job explaining what the Pepper-Box was all about. I really enjoyed it.
Thanks so much!
Neat. Don't have to worry so much about hangfires.
It being smooth bore it could be loaded up with bird shot for small game hunting or snake protection probably more useful to a Gold Miner or Pioneer of the 18th century than a colt a jack of all trades master of none they were popular here in the Gold Rush in Victoria Australia for that reason
What !
Snakes in Australia?!? 😎
@@BIG-DIPPER-56 I know right who would thought it
I just picked up that exact Pepperbox in fair condition, so I enjoyed your video on the proper use of the weapon and that you addressed the myths associated with it. The weapon seems to function correctly, and I am looking forward to getting it to the range. I am missing the mainspring tension screw but hopefully I can find something that will work in its place. Thanks
An excellently produced video; well done, Sir! You provide a a well reasoned opinion, backed up by demonstrated facts.
Thank you kindly!
I can vaguely remember a film, a comedy set around the time these guns were around, possibly in Europe. One of the last scenes of the film, the hero is bailed up by an antagonist with one of these guns or similar. The antagonist slowly pulls the trigger and the hero puts his finger under the hammer and yelps in pain when it comes down.
Might be Royal Flash you are thinking of. Don't remember that scene but I do remember the baddie showing his new fangled pepperbox off.
@@garethhunt6845 thx, I’ll check it out.
@@Pablo668 Meh.
The books are hilarious, about as un-Pc as you can imagine and historically accurate to an insane degree.
The movie is an okay way to kill 90 minutes at best.
Karl Kasarda,
in the desert,
with the revolver
Thank you so much for the informative and in-depth video. I couldn’t support you via Patreon, so here’s my comment and your much deserved like!
Great vid!! Thanks for making this one of the pepper box.
"The lore is wrong" Karl 2021
Let's be honest, most lore is. 🤷♂️
Looks like something out of a Steampunk universe.
Makes sense considering steampunk esthetic is vaguely mid 1800s
That was a very outstanding video, thanks. I am a history buff and shot black powder a lot when younger. Since I was a competitive shooter I felt hunting with a scoped rifle was not enough challenge so built my own kit hawken and hunted for several years in AZ with it. I had read about the pepperbox but yours was the first I saw fired. Thanks again for the video.
Great video as always. I don't think I've ever seen a video going into the details, loading, and firing of a pepperbox, but lots of gun blogs sure seem to have opinions on them.
People tend to hold ignorant opinions about lots of things they have no direct experience with.
I almost pissed myself laughing when Karl said "you know the rule of 3 in gunfights... ...you know, the S333" hahaha
As the founding fathers intended
I've always known of the Pepperbox, but I had no idea how it worked. Thanks for educating me.
That cheeky bit at the end totally got a like and a big ol smile outta me
After firing all six rounds, a gentleman would probably change to his stylish backup weapon, a cane-sword - en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swordstick .
I know it's mostly psychological, but the gun safety part of my brain wants to scream at the thought of loading this primed.
Thanks Karl. Great content as usual.
Rich.
Very cool! I've never seen one of those fired and it surprised me with how well it did. Thanks!
"The everyman's gun."
Ah, so the HiPoint C9 of its time.
Which would explain all the unfair bad-mouthing about the gun.
Only, better. XD
Got a notification right on time!
I thought that was weird, too.
This sort of video is why I love this channel.👍
Great content, as always! Keep up the good work!
A chain fire with a pepperbox?
That's just _Ye Olde Duplex/Triplex/Quadruplex/Quintuplex/Hextuplex_ trick!
Maxwell Smart, is that YOU!
In the land of the single shot pistol, the six shot pepperbox is king.
I had no idea how cool that iconic pistol is. Great vid. Thank you.
Another great and informative video Karl thank you from the UK.
Did these ever make the jump to cartridges? Perhaps pinfire, as that would require the least modification?
I'm sure there's some one off weird thing on FW, but not really, not in any practical numbers.
Hi Karl funny How 1847 tech is already streets ahead of that S-333 Thunderstuck you have, you are getting headshots with the pepperbox with zero sights, vs the Modern Liability Fire Thunderstruck, What is even more comical is you personally took two 1847 era firearms and combined them too make a functional one, Whereas Standard Manufacturing took A modern factory and built something So bad they won't even reply to your Emails
thanks karl , great video , love these guns
Thank you, as always, for the great content!
Glad you enjoy it!
Practical Tacital for the 1840's. How many were carried into the Cival War?
None were issued, but you could easily purchase one for a day's pay.
@@kylejohnson423 I would have.
@@MarkHansen1990 In addition, a colt revolver would probably cost your whole paycheck. So the pepperbox was the high point pistol of its day. Especially when not every solder was given a sidearm.
@@kylejohnson423 good point.
I'm fighting the algorithm.
Thanks for showing us the content on the clock.
What a nifty little carry piece (for the 1850s). Thanks for securing one and sharing the demonstration with us.
What was that then? Fastest time on the range? I'd love to see the reactions of the other people with their high-tech ultra modern pistols and then Karl rocks up with a Pepperbox from 1847 and smokes them all :)
To add: no timing issues. No cylinder stop to wear out.
I'd seen the pepperbox in museums, but had no idea they were so effective at what they were designed for. Very interesting and informative vid.
I'm pretty impressed with the performance of the pepper box. You have convinced me that it might be fun to have a reproduction one to enjoy and share with friends. Thank you for this video and I loved the little bit at the end.
There are no reproductions on the market worthwhile, sadly.
@@InrangeTv that is disappointing. I guess I'll just have to be more patient and find an original. There is one I've seen change hands on a local forum a few times. Maybe I should put some eyes on it next time an owner decides to make room in their collection.