Allen & Thurber Pepperbox
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- čas přidán 26. 11. 2015
- / forgottenweapons
If the Colt Paterson was the high-end classy choice for a sidearm in the mid-1800s, the Allen & Thurber pepperbox would have been the simple working man's alternative. While Colt was working for military contracts, Allen & Thurber ignored that market in favor of producing an affordable civilian sidearm in large volume.
The basic idea of a pepperbox is like a revolver, but with the cylinder comprising a cluster of full-length barrels instead of just chambers lining up with a single barrel in turn. This made the pepperbox a simpler weapon to manufacture, as it did not have the precise alignment requirements of a traditional revolver. Allen & Thurber's examples were further simplified by having no sights and smooth bored, and being double action only.
These were not the tool of professional gunmen, but they were simple, cheap (a quarter the cost of a Colt), and effective enough at close range. Allen & Thurber sold a huge number of them (exact numbers are not known, as they were not serialized) during the 1830s, 40s, and 50s and made a very tidy profit in the process. The end of the pepperbox came as metallic cartridges were becoming common place, as there was no easy way to convert the from muzzleloading to cartridge use, and cheap revolvers would take their place as the stereotypical working man's handgun.
finally you talk about a gun with creators that were actually successful, instead of the usual depressing stories like HE NEVER SOLD ANY GUNS AND DIED BANKRUPT AND ALONE
+CokenOpi lol
they are usually the best ones!
lmao bruh
You mean like Colt? Or Henry? Or Winchester? Or Smith? Or Wessen?
Most of the guns had successful designers/creators haha
Scream Like You Mean It Check out the guycot video.
@@mr420quickscops2
Colt, Henry, Winchester, Smith and Wesson, are not really forgotten weapons they are the successful top 5% of manufacturers. 95% of the videos gun Jesus makes are about guns that never really sold well commercially or to the military and the makers died as broke failures.
Here's the text from Mark Twain's Roughing It:
"To aim along the turning barrel and hit the thing aimed at was a feat which was probably never done with an "Allen" in the world. But George's was a reliable weapon, nevertheless, because, as one of the stage-drivers afterward said, "If she didn't get what she went after, she would fetch something else." And so she did. She went after a deuce of spades nailed against a tree, once, and fetched a mule standing about thirty yards to the left of it. Bemis did not want the mule; but the owner came out with a double-barreled shotgun and persuaded him to buy it, anyhow. It was a cheerful weapon-the "Allen." Sometimes all its six barrels would go off at once, and then there was no safe place in all the region round about, but behind it."
Poor mule :(
Something tells me Clemens did not like the Pepperbox too much :D
@@Ugly_German_Truths your name and avatar amuse me!!
Mark Twain has no chill and I love it
Thanks for that ! ! !
🙂😎👍
Despite its drawbacks, I gotta say that it's very impressive for a handgun to have double action capability during the mid 1800's.
In another 200 years someone will do a similar video on a Hi Point
MrTRISTANCOOL "Hey guys I'm Glorp 37 and I'm here at Pluto Hope Auction Company, taking a look at a Model 995ts!"
Haha exactly
But those pepperboxes were more reliable + durable in contrast to the Hi Point junk.
Haha
brokenspine66 Have you seen a Hi-Point before? Those things can’t be broken.
I need a pepperbox to go along with my salt rifle.
😂👍👍
Just go easy with the Mustardgas, okay?
@@Ugly_German_Truths Well, your username checks out. 😛
That’s so funny 🤣.
I have a 4-shot pepperbox. It's got a ludicrous trigger pull and is probably best used by sticking it in the belly of the guy you want to shoot and pulling the trigger. I would say "Long Range" is the distance across a poker table.
...and that is the ultimate reason my revolvers won out...
...also because, to make a larger pepperbox in larger, more powerful calibers that the revolvers used, it would have to be pretty larger, and those 6 barrels would cause it to weigh too much compared to the single-barreled revolvers...
What Pepperbox so you have? A COP 357? A Mossberg Brownie?
Those are the only 4 barrel pepperboxes I know of, but I'm sure the are others.
Eatons was a hardware store in Canada
Okay, hear me out:
.... *pepperbox shotgun.*
Nock volley gun vibes
It exists.
Just load the smooth bore pepper box with ball-and-buck, or blunderbus grape shot lol. Smooth bores are incredibly versatile.
Destiny 1 and 2 have a weird exotic shotgun called “The Fourth Horseman” that effectively is a pump action pepper box looking shotgun. Obviously not realistic or super functional but it looks hella cool.
hear me out;
all 4 to 6 barrels of such a weapon chain firing at once. literal grapeshot
Looking at the Pepperbox, I can't help but imagine steamboats and professional gamblers. It just seems like the perfect "Gentleman's" sidearm for backing away from a poker table of sore losers.
I have that exact gun. As you said, pepperboxes are from a very interesting time period in firearms history. love the black powder firearms. keep 'em coming!
They may have been cheap in the day, but were good quality and usually engraved. I have two; both work. The screw seen on the inside of the grip adjusts the hammer strike, which should not touch an empty nipple. It is possible to load 2 balls per barrel, making it a 12 shot. Sight the gun gangsta style. It also faster shooting and makes a better bludgeon than the Colt.
WOW ! ! !
THANKS ! felt I learned as much from your brief post as I did from the presentation ! 😎👍
so each time you fire, 2 balls would come out instead of just the one?
are you selling one of them?
You accomplished two great things with this video, first you made the lowly pepperbox seem interesting, second you were able to properly pronounce Worcester!
no problem with cylinder gap nor indexing the cylinder perfectly with the barrel, since all chambers have their own barrel
I don't know why but I love Pepperbox guns. Thanks for sharing.
I sure know why I like pepperboxes. A certain noble-born adventurer by the name of Percival Frederickstein von Mussel Kollowsky de Rolo the Third.
I can imagine someone traveling around with theri family and dual wielding pepperboxes revolvers to deffend them against robbers. This gun screams it's own history
Colonel Mustard, revolver, dining room
this was a really great video. I like to learn about these odd guns. I never knew that they were really popular.
The Pepperbox a 19th century Hi-Point. Nice!
I can't copy and paste the quote for some reason, but Mark Twain mentions the Allen Pepperbox in "Roughing it," saying that the only safe place when using firing it is directly behind it, due to the tendency for all six barrels to go off.
+NoGoufy Firefox?
+Tommy Rad Yeah, I don't know why I still use that piece of garbage browser. Only because Opera and Sea Monkey don't get any support whatsoever.
NoGoufy
FF seems to operate [cut & paste to YT] 10% of the time. C&P in other places works fine...
Try doing the C&P REALLY slowly. I find it helps. I hate Chrome so... I'm stuck with FF until I toss all my computers into a ditch.
+Tommy Rad || Oh, I thought it was a thing where CZcams disabled copy-paste to avoid spam.
BvousBrainSystems
I thought so too. I slowed down the process [place cursor over... highlight the sentence wait 3 seconds, right click... wait 3 seconds, etc... even then, I can only C&P from FF to YT about 80% of the time. Some weird glitch between FF & YT I guess. I never had that issue with Chrome but, I hate Chrome. The result is, I post less on YT... really, no one will miss my nuggets of insight LOL. Cheers.
An other advantage of each bullit having its own barrel is no pressure leakage..there is no gap from cylinder to the barrel.
When I think about a pepperbox I think of the board game Clue
I appreciate this choice of weapon to review, and the history of pepperboxes you gave. It's nice to see a variety of different weapons profiled on this channel, from esoteric military prototypes to the common everyday workingman's gun.
Looks like a really slick way to solve the problems of the time. Cartridge bullets were inevitable in retrospect, but in the 1830's I would have loved one of these for self defense. The fact they're inaccurate might discourage owners from going out looking for trouble.
for some reason, recently youtube seems to be recommending kids learning videos on the right while I watch your videos :S
+AwesomeVindicator For me it's scandals in education systems, i guess it's depens on a country you are in. and tags smth like #education #politics #timetokill ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (russia bytw)
+AwesomeVindicator He categorizes his videos under education.
+Elliott Appleford Too bad this isn't generally classroom friendly material. Too bad, since Ian's work is awesome, historically and mechanically educational, and generally pretty objective.
what's not classroom friendly about history and engineering?
+Elliott Appleford It's firearm history and engineering. Firearms and schools, especially in the US, are a big no no. Something about our tendency to put them together for the sake of suffering.
YEAH!!! that gun is one of my favorites!! thanks a lot for this upload ian , its been a history lesson of all times!! ita a beautyfull gun with a lot of simple and wonderfull ideas!
ME: *watching a wonderful history lesson about the working man's firearm of the mid-1800s.*
ALSO ME: *"Ah yes, the gun that Florence Nightingale would threaten patients with while "curing" them."*
The gun from "Clue"!
"Mr. George Bemis was dismally formidable..."
Perfect cheap simplicity. I really like these pistols and want to own one some day.
The most prominent J. Eaton I found was John Henry Eaton, a Tennessee senator and Andrew Jackson's Secretary of War. He lived from 1790 to 1856.
Wait it includes 2 pistols?
Sweet now me and my defiant teenage son can settle disputes like men.
Well did you win?
I think he died since there is no answer... RIP in Piece
@@lorrispain4125 😂😂😂 just saw this comment I'm dying now 😂😂
Oh no no no! Do not die! I did not Intend that!
cheap gun or not i still think its beautiful and interesting
Pretty good self defense weapon.
One of the major advantages of the Pepperbox and any gun is --- noise.
If a robber with a club is coming at you from 75 feet away and you fire your Pepperbox, the vast majority of the time the robber will turn tail. Even thou you have no chance of hitting him a 75 feet with the Pepperbox.
I just picked one of these up for about 50 bucks, thanks for the information, mine looks identical to the one you showed in the video
Fun fact, the factory building eventually became Harrington and Richardson.
I love these things so much
I come across these every so often
6 rapid shots in 1830's would be quite impressive, even if it's utterly inaccurate. It's worth realising that this is double-action when double-action revolvers wouldn't be common till the 1880's.
Are there any terms to describe firearms like this that have multiple barrels which each have their own chamber? The Lancaster Howdah pistols and the Harmonica pistols seem to share that distinction and they're the most interesting guns and weird guns i think you've ever done on the channel. The prospect of hearing the history about another firearm like that always has me coming back every week :)!
Very nice presentation,thank you!
Wonderful presentation ! I have an 1855 Allen & Wheellock .36 central hammer rifle. And I made it shoot! I put a front sight on it, a trigger guard, and put a recess on the face of the hammer. Nobody sells replacement hammers for this...
thanks, as always a superb back story
Pretty interesting I remember building a plastic model of a pepper box probably from Revel I believe the action actually worked. Good video.
"When you think of a pepperbox to think of a weird gun. That's not really the case". Proceeds to show weird gun.
This is my favorite smooth bore. The first gun I ever held as well. Too bad I have no spare money. I'd bid on this over getting a new computer if I did.
Carl just did a test of this gun for inrangeTV... Chronograph 50gr round ball over 20gr FFF black powder @ 1300fps.. All six shots into a head @ 5yrds in under 2 seconds... Impressive to say the least. This was no Hi Point, this was the pinnicle of CCW circa 1840 - 1850s
Glad someone else saw that and came back here!!!
I always thought it would be interesting to have a modern version of this, that would fire barrels singularly, but with a lever that would let you fire all at once. For when you were really pissed off at something, and were bored of your wrists.
Or get a judge revolver
So it's basically Ye Olde Hi Point
There is likely a serial number on the inside of the wood handle pieces and on the portion of the edge of the metal on the handle covered by the wood as well.
There needs to be a company that reproduces this!
If you want to see more on multi barreled revolving firearms check out his video on the Nock Volley or Rigging gun. I also believe he did one on a Belgian version which fired each barrel independently, whereas the Nock was designed to fire all of them together.
I'm not sure I've ever even heard of this variant of firearm before. I thought of it myself, independently after looking at the gattling gun for the first time but I'm glad that they had a little success before the revolver came through ^^
Be wary of the man with a filed bar hammer, for he already used that pepperbox a lot.
The first thing I think of when someone mentions a Pepperbox Pistol is Mark Twain's Roughing It. Kudos on mentioning it; not to many people know about it or want to read through all 600+ pages. :)
I think of the pepper box because of Clue. One "pepperbox" piece came with the entire set. I finally learned what that thing is actually called...sweet.
We have an Allen & Thurber pepperbox in our museum collection. One of the barrels has a large hole blown out the side.
that's the revolver from the game clue!
haha
thank you for mentioning Mark Twain's "Roughing It"
that book, along with "Life on the Mississippi" should have been the required reading in school instead of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn.
when I clicked to watch this video I immediately thought of Mark Twain's fellow stage coach passenger who comically missed a cow. thanks for another great video!
I see that you can let the hammer rest in between chambers but was that common practice or was it more preferred to carry it with the hammer on an empty chamber? When carried in between chambers does it line up to a cap if you pull the trigger?
Ian, what is the stud sticking out of the front strap of the grip?
i always thought you had to manually rotate the barrels on these things
COOL!My Grandfather had an old pepperbox,I don't remember the manufacturer,but he was from Vermont,it might have been these guys,we never shot it.
That pepperbox pistol is pretty cool.
I have several Allen & Wheelock pepperboxes.
Thank you!
Nice simple design
Please do a video on the Reiger mechanical repeating pistol.
The old Swedish pepperbox I have still works well after 175 years. 12 grains of FFFg black powder, a patched round ball and a #10 cap and one is in business. Accuracy is abysmal, but at 30 feet, you could scare heck out of a potential opponent. At 9 feet, the shooter is likely to hit the target. With practice, it is easy to shoot quickly. rotating the barrels by hand after each shot.
It's the game piece from Clue.
I can only assume that the cylinder with the notch on it was a way to keep track of which ones you had already loaded, to prevent leaving one empty or double loading.
Worcester, MA represent! Home of a shit ton of obscure and long lasting firearms manufacturers as well as some really popular ones! There is also an interiors store chain called Ethan Allen. Hmmm
Have you done a video where you have fired a pepperbox? I would like to see what the mechanical differences between a pepperbox and a revolver is.
Most pepperbox guns were manually indexed. Thus, as far as I'm aware the action was nothing more than a simple double-action trigger and hammer.
Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou for pronouncing my hometown (U.K.) correctly.
am I the only one that remembers the little playmobil cast metal pirate pistol that looks exactly like this
What was that bump or protrusion on the inside section of the grip?
I just won one at auction. an 1837 version with nice markings.
What's the pin/ button on the inside of the grip behind the trigger guard?
REPRO! REPRO! That would be such a cool repro to have!
Dixie Gun Works
Props for saying Worcester right.
+Geremy Tibbles He did say Nor-wich instead of Nor-rich.
+nuttex Yes, but that's how it's said in Connecticut. Just like the Thames River is pronounced there how it's spelled, not as the "Tems"
That's the point. He pronounced Worcester the British way - Wooster.Benjamin Abrams
Ian, how's the website doing? You never seem to specifically reference or or suggest we check something out on it etc.
The Chain Reaction Between Caps In The Cylinder (?-Is That The Right Term To Use For This Type Of Gun?) Of The Pepperbox Briefly Gives The Effect Of A Miniature Gatling Gun, True!-But At The Cost Of Your Hand!
How beautiful to live in a time when governments didn't require everything and your dog and you could just choose to not serialize your gun!
Were there any rifled versions?
I'm not Ian by far, but for all I know, no, none was rifled. Which on the other hand is understandable: why bother with the trouble and cost of rifling six barrels when you ain't got sights to aim the gun with?. On a gun intended to be as cheap as possible too. If you wanted rifling in your handgun, you'd be getting a revolver anyway.
$1000 for 2 good quality pepperbox originals ....including an early model pepperbox? Very good deal .
These guns , especially shrouded early models , are way underpriced in a market that is normally overpriced..
Where cheap Stinger pen guns made in the 1990's are getting $2500+ ...i bought mine for $189 in 1994. 1
Amazing how small, inexpensive guns can appreciate about 100 times that of the rate of prime real estate within 20 years or less .
Reminds me of the "turret" pistols from the Fable games.
Shouldn't the turret pistols from the Fable game* remind you of this?
No, because I saw the pistols from fable first
Ian it would be interesting if you would demonstrate some of these black powder cap and ball pepper boxes black powder very very interesting it's Alchemy
I found a kit for the Allen Thurber Pepperbox, but its in the original unassembled kit. I do need the schematics for it, is there away, somewhere I can obtain the schematics or the instructions for building and assembling? Thanks in advance for your help.
Chuck Simeonides try contacting Dixie Gun Works.
I found one in second hand store bagged mother to get it you can guess if I got it or not
What is that pin sticking out on the inside if the grip across from the trigger guard? It looks very uncomfortable to hold.
+Dale Subic I believe that is the screw holding the mainspring in position inside the grips.
+Forgotten Weapons I believe the date on the weapon was 1887. it looked like the worn number flared up and down on both sides to me. Minor point and might be wrong. Just FYI. Keep up the wonderful videos.
+Stanley Scalf 1887? Revolvers were the standard of the day by that point. The M1873 "Peacemaker" Colt Single Action Army revolver had been in production for over a decade, and that fires metallic cartridges while the bore was rifled. Before that, the M1858 or so Remington was I think the most common revolver during the American Civil War, and that also had a rifled bore along with a single barrel and a rotating cylinder. The lever under the barrel made reloading RELATIVELY easy in comparison to this pepper box which would require a separate ramrod.
WELL before 1887, many of those Remington revolvers of the American Civil War was converted to use metallic cartridges. By the 1880s, muzzle loading was pretty much obsolete. America had the M1873 Springfield Trapdoor, Britain had the Martini-Henry which would be replaced by the Lee Metford repeating bolt action one year later, Germany would be adopting their M1888 Commission Rifle in a year, Russia would have their legendary M1891 "Three Line Rifle" Mosin in 4 years, the French had JUST adopted the M1886 Lebel which was the first design to use smokeless powder and possibly the first to use FMJ bullets, the first truly successful and widely used semi auto pistol, the C96, is less than a decade away.
The Webley design was surely on the go by 1887, and then there's that American design before it where the rear sight is the unlocking mechanism... can't remember the name, starts with an S I think, but it was an auto-ejecting revolver that allowed for fairly quickly reloading compared to an M1873. My point is, as Ian said in the vid, by the time cartridge revolvers became standard, the smooth bore pepper box was essentially obsolete. The chances of it being made in 1887 MUST be impossible because by then, there's 20-30 year old revolvers available from the American Civil War. Why would you get a double action only muzzle loaded smooth bore pepperbox when you could get a rifled single action only cartridge firing converted firearm from the American civil war?
In short, I do not think that this item was made in 1887. If it was, then it was a reproduction for collectors who wanted to experience old timey designs, like how they make all those single action revolvers and muzzle loading rifles in Italy, and indeed even Ruger in America makes single action revolvers with a 'Wild West' feel for those who want to slip back about 100-140 years.
NormanMatchem I thought it was weird for the same reasons you stated, but I swear it looks like that number used to be an 8. I guess common sense should have told me otherwise
I think it's an "x", which was a common practice in the older days of printing when you didn't have the appropriate number available for some reason or another
This example is a .32 cited to be the middle range of typical sizes. I assume the big frame is a .36 and the smaller version shot out sewing needles.
I'm curious what a .44 'Army' version would be like. Specifically, I wonder what the upper mass limit would be for a pepperbox when compared to a Colt Army revolver of comparable age (Walker or a Dragoon). A six-shot pepperbox is a six-barreled handgun, after all, and how big is too big when it comes to handling or how heavy that full action trigger would become?
Ever since I saw one in an antique weapons shop here in New Orleans , I have wanted one. I think it was 1699$ I didn't have that on me hahaha.
What on earth did the holster look like ? ! ? ! ???
I really enjoyed this video. I owned a reproduction at one time and I have to say everytime I shot it was always "an experience"!!! LOL !!! I have to agree with Mark Twain, that everytime you shoot it, "it's guaranteed to fetch something!". I once was loading a patched round ball when my short stater got stuck and the ball came off in my hand. I had to shoot it out !!!! Not a safe or fun thing to do as I had to remove a nipple and put as much 3F as I could into the nipple hole then using a hammer to put the starter rod as far down as I could get it and hope it didn't explode when I fired it.... !!!! Fortune smiled at me (laughed is more like it). After a big POP!, it shot right out and I didn't use patches anymore. One thing you didn't mention was how quiet it was when fired. It just made a pop nothing like firing a different type of gun. I really enjoyed this video and I hope to see more. Perhaps a rifle version ,sometime ???
The markings on the barrell at 8.52 say Patrutko 18 x 7. Ian says that it says Patent 1837.
I would have liked to see a demo of how to load the barrels. In particular, how to rotate them to set the caps without the hammer hitting them as you rotate to the next nipple.
That is the hardest part. By far the easiest way is to use a flathead screwdriver to remove the barrel assembly and load them all like that; takes far less time.
Same type also seen in movie "Rooster Cogburn" though he calls it 22 caliber instead of 32 caliber, besides the aforementioned Clue Game.
I'm sure a couple people in the military carry them as a backup weapon or a boot gun in that sense. I know if I was in the military at that time any extra gun you could carry on you that was small and concealable would have came in handy.
So it’s effectively a double action black powder buckyball revolver? How impressive!
Basically the Saturday night special of the 1800s
dang now I wan't one, thanks
not knowing much about this era of firearm I'd always assumed that pepperboxes were essentially miniaturised volley guns. the more you know