Wide vs Narrow Winter Tires Tested - What's REALLY Better on Snow and Ice?
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- čas přidán 12. 11. 2023
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It's one of the oldest argument on the internet, and it crops up every winter.
Are you better off with a narrow or wide winter tire?
In this video we'll find out whether a narrow tyre or a wide tyre is best for snow and ice by comparing a 205 wide tyre on a 16" wheel, all the way up to a 275 tyre on a 19" wheel!
First, let's quickly talk about why we're having this argument. There are two contrasting theories about grip on snow and ice, and both of them are technically correct.
The first is the one you most often hear from the internet experts, and it gets used for dry and wet performance too. That is that a narrow tyre can apply more pressure on the surface below. While this is true specifically from a physical grip point of view, it ignores the fact tyres produce chemical grip, and that the footprint shape changes with different tyres widths. Which is kinda a shame as I think a La Ferrari would look hilarious on 155 wide tyres.
The second argument is that a wider tyre has more in contact with the surface., which means more compound to grip, a greater distance of sipes, the cuts in the rubber in a winter tyres tread pattern which gives the tyre more gripping edges, and everything else being equal, a wider tyre should have a little more space to pack snow into the tread, and as snow grips snow pretty effectively, this is an advantage. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Yo! Don't forget to be a tire hero and go review your tires over at www.tyrereviews.com 💖💖💖💖💖💖
It is a thread difference, smaller tires have the benefit of going through deeper snow ( much less power is needed ) You might have frosty snow ( it is painful to break icy patch with wider tires)
Rally Cars use narrower studded tyres for snow conditions. It's already a proven design.
Does tire pressure make a difference?
@@apocalypse487 depends of Snow condition. If it is powder. Doesn't matter. If it is packed or iced or in un even surfaces. Can help you get going ( the length of tire is matters not width) the more length you have the more acct as track.
I'm really disagree with your statement about the size of winter tyres! Coming from a country were we have 4 season's, mildly hot summer's and winter that lasts at least 4 months and were winter tyres are obligated by law in winter months. Winter tyres should always be two sizes narrower then summer tyres (225 in summer/205 in winter) the reason is simple, half of the time you won't get just ice or nice pressed snow surface as in your test track. Half of the time there will be melting snow slush, mixed salt/gravel and snow slush, fresh snowing snow and good luck getting any kind of grip in a 245 wide tyre, doesn't matter what brand it is,it will just float. Winter tyres are about safety on the road.
In my experience, in northern Minnesota people are much less concerned about turning and braking quickly than they are about getting stuck. I really wish you would do deep snow testing as a result. I’m sure it is difficult to find spots to get a consistent surface with 6-12 inch snow, but that is what matters to most people who have to go to work before the side roads and driveways get plowed. That is where the narrow tire would show the greatest advantage as well. I still appreciate all the in depth reviews! The best tire reviews on the planet currently.
Growing up in eastern Montana where snow plowing was iffy and rare tall narrow blocky snow tires were the bomb. Especially on ranch pickups. Deep to "deep" snow on paths and "roads" with no packed snow was the norm. Moving to northern Minnesota plowing was more reliable but we still had the problem with getting around in virgin snow before the plows hit (along with the problem of steep hills). Rear drive, rear engined or front wheel drive and front engined cars had real advantages. Again, tall narrow tires were preferred as the conventional wisdom that the tire wouldn't float but dig down to the road surface where the traction was.
This test didn't answer that question; however, the packed snow conditions probably covered the conditions most folks will find today. But if this test could be replicated in deep virgin snow it would test the extreme boundary conditions. And who doesn't like testing snow tires?! :D
Grew up in WI and ND and second this stongly. Braking performance is a luxury of those who aren't stuck and are actually moving. For many of us, we can coast to a stop on rolling/plowing resistance alone in 6" of overnight snow.
@@ronboe6325 ok so from what you are saing 125/85r13, would be better than 225/35r18? Similar wheel diameter higher sidewall?
From Montreal. Yes, smaller better in real world.😊
In Winterpeg, Manitoba, narrowest that meets the load requirements for wind blown hard deep snow drifts, smallest diameter possible for the spring pot holes
The advantages of a narrow tire show up more in "slush planing" and pushing through deeper snow.
Which helps with acceleration, but during braking actually it helps to displace more snow with the wider tires.
@@bernhardleopold6702 I would say that "slushplaining" protection is about a car staying on the road or ending up in the ditch or in the opposite line. But interesting results in breaking.
But the point he makes in the end makes total sense. People looking to narrowing or widening their tires are probably only going to go one size up or down. No one is going to go from 265 to 205.
In which case, the differences are negligible anyway.
In slush and hydroplaning 20mm width difference per tyre make a quite noticable difference.
(in my personal experience)
@@bernhardleopold6702 yea but with a 60 cm difference going from 4x 205 trying to stop to 2x 255 and 2x 275 trying to stop i'd say it's super not worth it, basic takeaway find what size is cheapest to fit on your car and go.
my car came with aftermarket rims 17" 215/45 tyre's which were a kewl 215 bucks a tyre lowest price/crappiest tyre i could find, replaced it with 15" rims 195/60R15 tyre for 62.50 a tyre yea i literally replaced my rims and tyre's with brand new stuff for what it would have cost me to put new rubber on the aftermarket rims >.< but same rule applies whatever size fits and is cheap/good go for it :P sure it's not as sporty as it was but the confort went from a 2 to a ...6.5? vast improvement in that area :P probably shoulda gone 16" for looks but worked out to 42.50 more a tyre and the rims i liked were a x2 in price over what i got :P
- [06:52] ❄ Narrow tires perform better in both snow and ice traction tests.
- [05:36] 🚗 Narrow tires offer better acceleration in snow but perform worse in snow braking compared to wider tires.
- [08:10] 🚘 Tire width has a minimal impact on handling and performance; tire quality matters more.
- [09:28] 🚙 Consider fitting narrower winter tires for practical reasons, like protecting larger alloy wheels, but focus on choosing a high-quality winter tire rather than worrying about width.
- [03:44] 🌧 Differences in handling and performance between narrow and wide tires are extremely small, with width making little difference in most cases.
Bro saved me 10 min, Thanks 👍
Having done several years of Ice Racing in the CASC Ice Racing Championships combined with running our Winter Driving schools for over 20 years at our iced facility and having conducted numerous tire tests, we did notice that a narrower tire has advantages in deeper snow/slush conditions. What is important to note though is any winter tire will out perform any all season tire in winter conditions. Get yourself a good quality set of winter tires. ILR Car Control School
The advantage / disadvantage actually depends on vehicle weight compared to tire size.
Personal experience from winter service while driving stuff between 400-3000 kg (small plows to heavy cars). This is especially true for the deeper snow / slush part.
Doing the Physics would agree, the additional pressure allows the dig into harder snow/slush deeper down.
All season tires are kind of stupid because they are very mediocre in summer and also very mediocre in winter. Now if you're like my 78 year old mom who basically just drives to the grocery store all year round and has the freedom to not drive when it snows or when conditions are bad - get all season tires and save some money. But for everyone else, don't do it.
@@maximilianmustermann5763 We did tire testing for Goodyear and couple of years ago and we tested their All Weather tires (not All Season) and they performed better in all seasons than an All Season but still not as well as a Winter tire in winter conditions. We would recommend the All Weather tire for someone who doesn't have storage or driver very little instead of the All Season tire. That Goodyear tire we tested is their Assurance WeatherReady tire. We liked it better than the all season in spring, summer and fall.
A narrower tire will feel less resistance when moving through thick slush or snow at speed. This could help prevent you from getting pulled in further off the road.
Going one size narrower could also save you some money on a set of tires. In my recent case, the difference was about $100 on a set of 4 from a 225 to a 215.
Weel said
This test was performed in a very cold place where the snow is basically ice-gravel. My intuition is that you'd see more differences between the widths if you tested on fresher, wetter, deeper snow. For me, my main motivation for winter tires is to not get stuck in fresh snow, especially when climbing hills. I'm not all that concerned about braking and handling differences because where I live, any time there's snow on the ground you're driving slowly anyway.
Full agreed its verry important i was 225 hankook kinergy 2s) car weight 1370kg now its 195 on winter and im shock how good grip car is now.. sorry for my english. I cant believe this test how 255 its same grip on 205.. its fake or really verry ice/snow cold not wet not difference.
Absolutely. My city in Canada is avg. 0 to -10c in winter, lots of slush and fresh snow days. See lots of cars getting stuck on our steep hills and trucks with wide tires crawling on the highway as they're slushing all over the road. My van with 205/85 will go anywhere, no problem.. and they're not even snow tires, just All-Season AT. My buddy spun his 4runner into the ditch on 265/70 on packed highway and fully admits it was the tires; he went and bought narrow winters after that.
@@furieux6742 I got 225 kingergy 2s as well on my model 3, and while i was parked on grass, 5-7cm of snow almost got me stuck. Dunno what i think about that, as i got no comparison. Luckily it barely snow here anymore, thats why I went the allseason way.
Testing in deep snow is impossible : the surface is too inconsistant.
@@laurg17 by deep snow I mean 3 or 4 inches of fresh fallen snow on a flat parking lot. Ideally you'd have two identical cars side by side instead of taking the time to switch out the wheels on one test vehicle.
There are more potholes in the winter, so I always go for a smaller winter wheel rim with a taller side-walled tyre so that rim damage is less likely and for more comfort on rougher winter roads. I never deviate from the manufacturers list of approved wheel and tyre combo's for that vehicle though, I just move between the recommended sizes depending upon the season.
Totally agree. I always try to get the smallest wheel diameter / largest tire sidewall as possible as our roads are horrible. Pot holes don’t get fixed for months - well into the warmer months.
Yeah I’m with you, even in summer. On a 20” wheel, you have to go to at least a 33” tire to have enough sidewall for comfort and protection. Of course I’m talking SUVs and trucks.
Swiss guy responding there.
We always try, when possible, to opt for smaller winter wheels. This allows more sidewall and is beneficial to find this little bit of traction. Also, never over-inflate winter tires, always opt for lower recommended pressures, as it will allow the tire to flex.
@@boboutelama5748 Very often a taller profile tire on a smaller rim will also have higher load ratings, allowing the winter tire/wheel setup to carry the vehicle with lower pressures safely, which produces an even longer contact patch, which makes the whole driving experience even more predictable, and more capable in deep snow.
High side wall gives you piece of mind - curbs you don't see and the comfort. Additionally if you have 2 sets of wheel you can opt for better/more expensive tyres (my BMW needs every bit of help)
I've always got the smallest option as that's what I figured made the most sense. From the looks of it, the difference is negligible, but the smaller tire options are often less expensive too. I guess you could look at this way; save some money and buy the smallest option, but use some of that savings to ensure you put it towards a quality tire. That way, you are getting the best of both worlds.
Yes. Assuming, of course, that you have rims to mount them on. If not, it will equate to roughly the same or slightly more to downsize.
You shouldn't be buying the smallest option, you should be buying the tallest skinny tire on the smallest rim possible. This gives you the option to run lower air pressure and produce a longer and larger contact patch than OE. What's your OE tire/wheel size, what winter rim size do you run? I'll provide an example...
If safety is important, it's difficult to choose something else than the test winner. If the same brand wins the tests year after year, how difficult is it then to choose a "good" tire?
@@mdocod yes, by "smallest", that's what I meant. I no longer run winter tires due to the hassle and cost. I put a set of Michelin Cross Climate 2 tires on my Venza and they've been excellent. Not far off from a good winter tire.
Take a second and google winter race cars, or winter rally drivers cars, take a look at ALL of their wheels. One thing remains the same among all of them. Narrow Tires. Studded or not, depending where its legal (in the ARA / Rally America Studded tires are not legal) they are always narrow. These guys drive at the limit, in multiple million dollar cars with million dollar race teams. If there was some performance to be gained with a wider tire on the snowy tracks/courses, Dont you think they would have done it?
Try testing in deeper snow, so you can see how they would handle on an unplowed road, that's where the narrower tire will cut through the snow VS the wider tire riding on top of the snow. This is when you will really notice the difference (usually during a snowstorm in an urban setting the snow turns to deep slick slush and the narrower tire find's much better traction than a wider tire).
This. Compacted snow is quite rare imo in Finnish winter at least. It's like 80% of driving in "solid" surface like tarmac, ice or snow which is easy to control. But the the critical condition is the last 20% and that is like really deep snow and slush and these are the conditions where winter tyre performance is counted. Narrow tire indeed "sinks" better into hard base. Wide tyre can easily "hydroplane" on heavy snow or slush. My preference is high sidewall tyre to increase comfort and narrow to just easier to push through the surface as mentioned.
This is clear as day.
Narrover is a game changer in slush and most of the time when there is slush there are cars in the ditch.
I would like to see tire reviews test this. Also car Weight is probably a big factor.
Wider tire on a 2000kg car is not as bad as 1400kg car.
@@IV-A For sure. I had one light car that had really wide tyres for it's weight and it was downright scary in certain situations. It got much better with original tyres.
The narrow tall profile tire actually does exactly the opposite. It has a slightly narrower tread, combined with lower inflation pressures, produces a significantly longer patch (around square shape) that gradually packs, paves, and climbs over the snowpack formed by the leading edge. It is the low profile tire, with rigid reinforced sidewalls and higher inflation pressures and a very short contact patch that is incapable of engaging with the standing snow in a manner that packs and paves a path over it. The short contact patch of a low profile tire winds up "falling" through, digging its own grave, and getting stuck in a hole that it can't pack and climb its way out of.
@@mdocod not that much, cause outer diameter doesn't change that much in tires anyway, except for extreme cases. Low profile = bigger rim. High profile = smaller rim. End result doesn't change vastly on conventional tire sizes. But comfort does change. We're talking really small contact patch changes.
I’d be interested in comparing tire pressure effect on traction, both dry and wet pavement AND snow and ice, to what vehicle manufacturers want vs what the tire manufactures want for static loaded radius. If a change that can be made for free affects performance I’m sure many would want to know.
The tire pressures are defined by regulations through the ETRTO (european tire and rim organisation). Multiple factors and formulas define the lowest pressure for the specific tire dimension, vehicle mass, maximum car velocity, camber angles etc.
Going lower that this exact pressure might be performance enhancing but not street legal as the tire supplier does not guarantee a longterm durability anymore and therefore no insurance will cover you in case of an accident.
It's on the list, I tried once on snow actually but the results were inconclusive!
@@lars_hbm While perhaps true in Canada I’ll take the smoother ride and longer tire wear, the two things I know I get, on 275/60R20 equipped Ford F-150 two person glorified grocery hauler. Take axle mass, 1600f, 1200r kg, divide by 10 for SLR proper. 160/120 kpa. Door sticker 235 kpa I believe but don’t care.
Keep in mind, pressure set by very accurate digital gauge on a cold soaked vehicle @ +15°, 20 kpa added for winter as tires cool and therefore lower pressure when actually running. Very accurate and consistent 4 tire vehicle pressure readings really help research.
@@tyrereviewsExcellent, at least it wasn’t disastrous requiring no further research lol!
@@donboles54 Vehicle tire pressures are set at max vehicle rated weight, for most cars that dosnt matter as 4 people and the trunk full is only about 1000lb diffrence vs empty+ driver, but trucks have a much bigger weight diferential between loaded and unloaded, especially on the rear axel.
My silverado 2500hd for example wants 65psi in the front and 85psi in the rear, but if i do that the rears go bald in the middle from over inflation because that pressure is designed for 5000+lbs in the bed. i've been running 55psi in the front and 45 in the rear when daily driving and then airing up to recomended when i'm actually hauling loads.
I know it's hard to test, but I would have liked to see tests in loose snow and slush.
Living in Finland I've opted for a narrower winter tyre for behaviour. With patches of ice/snow/slush between tarmac the transition from sliding a bit to not sliding is much smoother with a narrower and higher tyre. The narrower tyre might have a bit more traction in the slippery but more significantly it is not so sharp when you either loose grip or get it back.
No one ever does these tests on real world applications of wet roads with slush and black ice in patches, throw in some rain as well. They either have dry snow (which grips awesome) on a track or straight up ice which just isn't the case for everywhere.
As a Canadian I agree. If anyone knows winter tires it’s the Finns…
Then there are studded winter tyres vs just winter grip tires debate haha
Also for winter tyres 205 is not what I would call narrow. 185 would have been much more interesting, but seems like they are out of fashion.
@@LaLLi80 it's all changing. In the 80's 185 would have been considered a wide tyre.
In cases where its snowslush on asphalt roads, which is pretty common here i definitely prefer narrow tyres for traction up hills , or just slushplaning at speed (if i can call it that :)) etc, specially in a lighter car. Great test anyway!
One major thing to consider is that most days are not snowy nor icy suring the winter, at least where I live in Canada. So you end up driving on cold tarmac, which I imagine would favor a wider tire. I guess not going to the extremes is the way to go
Driving sensibly solves 95% of issues on the road.
I have been reading a couple of tests on winter tires recently. I live in Germany and most of the time in winter we'll have cold, wet roads. Sometimes salty slush, sometimes a little ice. There's just like two times in the last 15 years or so where I can remember actually driving on a bed of fresh snow. So the tests here also focus a lot on cold, wet roads. Some winter tires are fantastic on snow, but they are just very mediocre at braking on wet roads. Others are the opposite. I ended up buying a Continental Winter Contact which is supposed to be really good on cold, wet roads and pretty good on snow as well.
Great test conclusion! The data and test you provide here are outstanding! Thank you for your Work Jonathan!
Super interesting test. Some things to consider :
1. A lot of cold areas will see a mix of conditions, sometimes snow, ice, slush, rain, wet and dry pavement. In some areas a driver can experience a combination of any of those in winter, in a single trip!
2. Though it’d be a lot of work to do all this additional testing on 4 different sets, it’d bring additional considerations for finding the best overall width for a well-rounded winter experience.
3. Without much doubt the wider tire would do better on dry and wet than narrower tires; maybe not so much in the rain (hydroplaning).
4. I’d be curious to see how studs would influence the results. Do wider tires have more studs overall? It probably varies from a model to the next depending on the design choices the manufacturers made. But if a particular model has more studs on the wider sizes, then that could very positively improve results on ice.
Thank you for all the hard work 👌
I bought the Evo3 (245/45/18) last year partly down to your in depth review. They were excellent will be used again this winter. Thanks for the detail you put into your work!
Still watching these videos despite living in a part of the UK with next to no snow! I prefer the summer stuff but still loving your content
Great test Jonathan, well done for doing this one! I have always tended to fit narrower tyres, mainly to have a higher sidewall for general winter use and better performance in slush. I use the Bridgestone Blizzak LM005 in 225 width on all four wheels of my BMW, and they are an extemely good winter tyre - and one of the few winters with an ‘A’ wet weather rating. I have driven them extensively on snow-covered roads in Scotland and in the Alps. The other benefit of a narrower winter tyre, is actually better aquaplaning performance on rain-soaked motorways.
I used to be convinced narrower tires were a must for winter. But when I got my current car with 225/40/18 in the front and 255/35/18 in the back I decided to just get winters and stick with the same set of wheels until I find a good second pair. I got Michelin Pilot Alpin 4's and my subjective feeling was that width made no significant difference. Great to see it backed up with actual testing.
Glad we match :)
Yeah, I used to love the extra comfort going down a size (in width and sidewall height) but it also meant more mushy turn in and less grip on dry and wet roads.
Nowadays I stick to the same size so the handling changes much less (although I am on a sporty winter tire -michelin pilot alpin- and a much less sporty summer tire -michelin primacy 4-)
@@helldogbe4077 Pretty much the same for me. I also found I prefer to keep the sportier feeling vs the extra comfort of the thicker sidewall. And actually in a similar situation with my tire setup. I was on hankook s1 evo 3's for summers and pilot alpins for winters. Whilst the hankook is technically a more sporty tire than your primacy I can't really call it a UHP tire at least not on subjective feel. It has loads of grip but steering feel isnt great. So I also see little to no change from summers to winters. But I'm due for new summers next year and planning to try the f1 assymetrics
I've been waiting for this video for years! Thank you as always!
You anticipated my morning question when I woke up. Awesome stuff! Thank you!!
I always thought the more narrow tire was significantly better for driving in snow. I've been educated now lol. Love these videos.
Take this test with a grain of salt as its in very specific conditions that most places don't get. The real test should be on ashphalt - wet, slush mix, occassional black ice. That is the most normal and most dangerous type of conditions in winter almost everywhere. Dry snow is extremely grippy.
This test compares an UNDERSIZED skinny tire (smaller diameter), with no load index advantages to the low profile tires, so it has to be operated at the same pressure, which means it has the same contact patch size as the other tires, so not much advantage. A 205/65R16 or 215/60R16 at 30PSI would be the appropriate tire sizes (and pressures) for this test, not the 205/60R16 @ 35PSI.
Not only the best tires review in the world he also describes the feeling/feedback from the tires and you can tell he really likes to drive like an entusiast. This is very important for dynamic reviews.
If you drive in a gated area, you can slide around. That's why they make tracks on the lakes in the wintertime!.
The 2x rally world champion, Kalle Rovanperä, was sliding around on ice tracks with a Toyota Starlet when he was 8 years old!
No it's not the best! Swedish car magazines do much better tests.
@@stefankarlsson8215 I can tell you for sure they are one of the worst recommendations. I live in Sweden ;)
Haha!ha You're so wrong!
@@stefankarlsson8215 I always looked for inspiring driving cars. I followed Swedish tire recommendations for 3 seasons and every time i get a boring driving car. I switched to german and other continental recommendations and suddenly all my cars was funny to drive again. No more understeer and the feedback from the road come back to life. So mr Hahaha I think you are stuck in the boring Trafikmagasinet era. Sorry for that last one ;)
We have been spoiled by Tyre Review's consistent excellence. Another very fine review!
Thanks. Your tests continue to be the best on YT.
Great insights. So, in a Central European setting, with maybe 10-20% time driving the winter tyres in snow, wider/larger tyres are better, as they will perform better in dry/rain.
In my experience, driving in Vermont and Utah winter here in the USA, width does not matter much. I’ve run from 235 to a 275 on my truck always Blizzaks. The big variable in the real world is the snow temperature, snow depth, road surface under the snow, etc. Any difference from the width is washed out by how bloody variable winter conditions are. I knew a mechanic who’s family raced in an ice league in Vermont (on frozen lakes) and he told me that “surface pressure” only mattered for the deep spiked tires. Modern studless winter tires are so good that you just don’t notice much difference through the noise of “that bit of road had some salt thrown on it” versus “that bit was in the shade and was 5 degrees colder”.
i LOVE you guys, videos, articles for tyres. you are my reference when it comes to buying new tyres !!! thank you for all the work !
Thank you for all the videos and for the site!!!
Since you have done so much driving on snow and ice maybe you could make a video with tips on how to be better drivers on them!
Definitely think the conclusions on this video was wrong, long-time viewer here and love your videos but as someone who's grown up in northern Sweden you definitely see a big difference between narrow and wide tires. On wide tires you will essentially "aquaplane" on the snow and slush.
Fair comment for sure! I wish we could test slush
That is interesting results. I would have imagined the narrower would have had a large margin of success compared to wider counterparts. As always good info!
Fascinating tests. Thanks for your work!
Wow. Great vid! I learned a lot! These tire vids are excellent!
In my experience driving and ice racing in Canada the narrow tire definitely performs better in deep snow..and this video confirms the ice performance 👌🏾
This is a great test that confirms my experience with having winter tires that are exactly the same size as the summer tires.
Excellent as always and a sound, sensible summary at the end 👍
Wished I had these results three weeks ago when I ordered new wheels and tires for winter season in the Alps - would have prevented sleepless nights. Finally decided for broad tires on 19" for sake of style. But I was really worried that they might be much worse than smaller tires on 17". Thanks for this great test like always.
OMG! Way just thinking yesterday that there was no way another one would drop just 4 days later! But 5 days? YES!!!
as you mentioned near the end, going with as small a diameter wheel for your winter tires makes sense, since roads are going to be be in poorer shape overall, leading to a higher probability of damaging a large diameter wheel. also, the tires should be a bit cheaper as well, potentially even the cost of one entire tire cheaper.
And, as someone above said, you could use that financial saving to buy better tyres.
Great test as usual. I’m running 19” Michelin PS4S in summer, and as you suggested, a smaller diameter winter tyre (17” Hankooks). For me this is an excellent combo and keeps me comfortable and out of trouble in winter, but let’s me drive on the door handles in summer. Keep up the good work.
I actualy asked about it on reddit! Great to see the case is finally settled.
This is nice to know. That said I will always favor narrower and more side wall option for winters (within reason) because of trivial situations when there are slushy and non-plowed roads. There cutting the layer is important, as well as all the traction you can get to keep you moving! There is a reason why rally cars use very narrow tyres for soft surfaces like gravel and snow! :) +narrower tyres are way cheaper in winters! Greets from Finland
I’d love to see a test of winter tires in fresh deep snow (6-12 inches). I know it’d likely be hard to set up, but I think it would provide useful information. If you are able to make it happen then it’d be cool to add in a narrow vs wide tire into that testing pool. I feel like it’ll have more of a difference in that environment.
I would guess that AT tires wins that test.
@@dubious6718an AT tire will ALWAYS lose to a dedicated winter tire in any winter condition. aT tires are garbage in snow.
Love this channel, real world tests with timing and unbiased opinions based on data.
Love your through testing m8. I bought most tyres Michelin and Yokohama for my cars just watching this channel. So happy with the choices. cheers
I was hoping you would do a test in deeper snow to see what vehicle gets further before getting stuck, but still a good video!
I've always been one for smaller rings size and larger side wall for winters which normally means a slightly narrower tyre too.
Mainly for protecting the wheel and if you really need to you can lower the psi to give a bigger contact patch if needed and have more supple side walls.
Have you thought about doing this test but using different psi settings on the same tyres?
Yes, you did it again! Nice job.
You are absolutely correct, for the regular road there is no difference in perfect conditions.
But, when the roads are bad, when there are a lot of pot holes, and you can't see the curb then the bigger sidewall makes a difference.
Thanks for doing this. Very much appreciated.
For most people that live in winter climate the reality is that snowy roads eventually get plowed. I would say more than 80% of the time we are on asphalt or partially covered asphalt, extremely cold asphalt but nevertheless it would have been nice to cover the handling on asphalt as well. Or it would be nice to see a video comparing efficiency of different type of tires on -20c asphalt. Just a suggestion, love your videos keep up the good work.
Really good point!
If you're buying tires for the best case or average conditions, then you're missing the point.
@@mdocod I'm buying winter tires for the types of situations that I will mostly encounter in winter. That's not "average conditions", it's based on experience in my area. I usually encounter cold, wet roads. Sometimes a little slushy, sometimes a little icy, but 95% it's going to be cold and wet (and salty...). So if one winter tire is great in deep snow and packed snow but average on wet roads, it's not going to be my first choice. You have to make some compromises, no ordinary person can have 4 different sets of wheels at home and quickly change to the other set when there's unusual conditions like 1 day of the year.
@@maximilianmustermann5763 The point, is that you could pick the worst performing tire in the wet of all tires on the market, and you'll still have more traction in the wet than you will on ice with the best performing ice tire available. If you're buying a set of tires for year-round use, then it's going to be a compromise no matter what, but compromising dry and wet performance is not as big of a deal as compromising ice performance, because ice is the situation that a bad tire choice will actually put you in the ditch wrong side up, whereas a lousy choice for any of those other conditions isn't going to cause that unless you're driving way over the speed limit recklessly.
Big sidewalls are just great for comfort and better fuel economy
..and less likely to have snow inside your rims, which unbalances them.
Also better for peace of mind. I damaged my 1 year old around 10k km CC2 205/40 17 a week ago in pothole, tyre got bump on sidewall, rim lost paint in impact zone and get little dent i think. Tomorrow I'm going to replace the tire and check the rim
@jamakasis18 yes I remember that back in 2011 or 2012, big wheels of snow
@Foton410 councils might have the money for repairs but don't have capacity for road repairs anymore.
This is a fantastic comparison that I found very useful. You convinced me about narrower vs wider snow tires 😀
Very eye-opening. And I would really like to see this same test with summer tyres in heavy rain!
Great video, I always thought narrower was better, interesting that tire quality is the bigger choice.
It feels to me that the difference between the lateral acceleration and braking test might have been affected by the 2 wheel drive force on acceleration and 4 wheel braking force on deacceleration. To get a base line an all wheel drive test would be a create addition to this test. Either way I love these experiments / reviews and it's super easy for arm chair pundits to point stuff out afterward!
True, but my RWD car isn't helped by AWD testing for the same reason. This was very helpful to me. (Sorry)
Just like driving in sand, under braking a certain amount of snow is pushed up in front of the tire. With a wider tire the amount of snow pushed up in front of the tire also increases, helping the car to slow down. Under acceleration there is no build up. Hence the narrow tire performs better due to the higher pressure delivering more bite and the wider tire have better break performance due to the broader heap in front of the tire
@@afrikees I think you were spot on. I was thinking the same thing and went looking for a comment were someone else pointed this out first.
Thank you so much for this test. It has been on my mine on and off for years even though I only use the factory recommended size. I wonder how they would fair in 1/2 ~ 1 foot of snow condition though. Definitely would like to see all the tests in the future including the ice test though.... even with the tires that already been tested especially all the All-Weather tires.
Some really interesting information here! Cheers Jonathan👏
Test in deep snow could tell much more about the width
For my Porsche Cayenne S, I followed the OEM sizes of 285/40/22 Front and 315/25-22 Rear. I figured the ultimate ice and snow traction might be lower than going with a narrower setup, but the trade off would be better handling in the dry/wet where the car will spend the majority of it's time anyway. After seeing this review, it seems even the ice/snow handling won't be very different anyway, so I'm very happy with my choice now!
Ever been stuck on dry pavement? Are you driving around corners so fast in the dry on public roads that you need that much lateral grip in the dry? Anything you could do that would find the limit of traction on those tires on dry pavement would be a spend-the-night-in-jail sort of traffic offense.
On the other hand, I see sport SUV's with low profile's stuck all the time in the heavy slushy stuff. They dig their own grave with no sidewall flex to climb out of compacted slush. A tiny bit of wheel spin and they are locked into these cute little perfect dishes in the compacted slush shaped just like the perfectly round tires/wheels with no flex.
This test is actually very flawed, as it fails to take into account HOW to employ a skinny tire setup properly. By choosing an undersized skinny tire (Smaller diameter than the rest) they did not gain any load carrying capacity compared to the other tires, so they had to run the same pressure, so they did not get any additional contact patch. They should have run a 205/65R16 or 215/60R16, and dropped the tire pressure by 5PSI (same load carrying capacity here)... and then added a real world unplowed heavy snow test.
Excellent review! I had that question, but you came with the right answer: it's not about the wide of the tire but instead what is important its the good traction of the tire.
Great info and great test as well. Would be great if you make same test in summer with summer tyres.
Very thorough testing! (and not that surprising results except for a few tings).
But what i think people should keep in mind is that if they aren't driving on snow there are other differences too:
In the dry, the wider tyre will be better in traction and braking and cornering, and in the wet it most likely will too.
But the narrower tyre will be better in hydroplaning and in slush. And here 20mm in width per tyre can make quite the difference.
And lastely the narrower tyre will cost less.
(sadly, something people often are more concerned than with performance, even though hitting something and the repair afterwards cost more than a set of premium tyres.)
So someone could buy a good winter tyre in a smaller dimension for equal money as if buying a shitty tyre in a bigger dimension.
I'm strangely interested in this. Seeing all those WRC cars on these small tires going all out on snow stages.
They've got spikes and a very different use case. They also have a regulation width limit (as well as regulations on spikes per cm of circumference).
Yeah wrc cars are not a great example to follow - their tires are extremely studded.
Best tyre review channel by far. Thanks 🙂
You read my mind. I’ve been curious about this for years.
Fascinating! My takeaway here is that, since tyre sizes vary in terms of popularity and price, it makes sense to shop around to get the best tyre you can afford in any size that fits your car. Example: My old BMW 1 series came with 205/50R17, but I'm on 205/55R16 (also within spec) in the winter (cheaper -- €140 vs €190 per one Michelin X-ice North 4) and either 215/45R17 or 225/45R17 (neither size recommended by BMW for the front axle) in the summer (better selection, including one or two UUHP options, none of which were available in my size last I checked; also wildly cheaper -- €97 vs €173 per one Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 6).
The 205 size they tested was under-size diameter wise and had no advantage in load index compared to the 255, so had to run the same pressures to hold the weight of the car safely. Had they tested a proper 215/60R16 or 205/65R16 aired down about 5PSI below the door sticker, the skinny tires would have run away with all of these tests AND provides the car far more real-world advantages in deep snow and slush, as the tires contact patch acts more like a track, able to climb the problem rather than dig out a perfect little grave for itself.
@@mdocod Sorry, what exactly in my comment are you responding to?
So if you are budget conscious with tires go to a smaller wheel to save money instead of a cheap tire very interesting test
Very interesting test! Well done!
Piggybacking on his comment about taller sidewalls helping mitigate wheel damage, if you can stairstep your way down into a smaller wheel and gain a taller sidewall (215/55R17 --> 205/65R16 ,in my case), sometimes you can get into a cheaper wheel/tire category.
It doesn't always work, and you need to check actual diameter and caliper clearances, but it sometimes can allow for separate wheel & tire purchases for complete swapovers. I do the above dimensional swap and just have a pair of cheap steelie rims with winter tires permanently mounted.
I usually do just that. 20” summer, swapped for 18” winter on a Macan last few years. Way cheaper for both rims and tyres and more comfortable, for when you’ll be driving more sedately anyway.
Now I’ve got 19” wheels, I couldn’t be bothered and just got the same sizes. I just went for an aftermarket wheel and crossclimate2 in southern England.
@@DontPanicDear I actually got lucky while unlucky. A guy slammed into me and totaled my last car. New car can take my old rims and tires, so I can hold off for replacement til next summer. Just so happens that the diameters nearly match up
Great video! I would really like to see a test that compares tire efficiency on the dry street for different widths. Does a narrow tire automatically mean better efficiency?
Yes less rolling resistance... But also less grip so more dangerous
Narrower tyres also have less aerodynamic resistance, less (unsprung) weight, are better at hydroplaning and in slush and cost less.
They are a little"worse" in dry and wet performance though than the same tyre in a wider format.
What great videos! I think you are getting so nuanced comparing winter tires, with so many confounding variables, that it’s difficult to really describe what is happening. I think you might get completely different results with a different brand or different psi, for example.
Thank you so much for the video and for the test! I was wondering about for a long time, since a friend of mine and I have argument about it. The argument was which one was safer. It looks that I have won that one, without knowing it back then :) Safety comes first :)
I wonder, if the results for acceleration and braking for 205mm will reverse with backwards mounted wheels (incorrectly). 🤔
Damn I should have tried that
Great test, I like your methodology and analysis, but what this is really missing is deep snow. If width makes a significant difference, I expect it to be in much deeper snow than this.
Brilliant video again. I just bought smaller 17" wheels with winters on to replace the summer 19" ultra low profile tyres. Good to know that width doesn't make a massive difference, but as you said, the key idea is to protect the wheels and have that extra side wall there for the potholes, mud and what not that a British B-Road throw at us every winter!
Dude, solid video! Loved it!
The theory of a narrow tire is so it can dig through loose snow/slush and get in contact with the pavement, where as the wide tire would float above the loose stuff and have less grip. You're basically testing on packed snow, might as well be testing on pavement and will probably have similar results.
I went for a more narrow tire for winter because it gives me more sidewall and thus more comfort and relaxing driving, which improves safety in a non-obvious way. And yeah, no potholes or just holes are dangerous enough while driving pleasure I can get with far better summer.
Thank you for answering this question Jonathan !
thanks for watching
I bought these Winter tires for my Porsche. 265/40/21 R, 295/35/21 F - Great video, can't wait to try them in the snow!
Interesting. I think the theory about narrow tires is the largest benefit driving through deeper snow. The theory being that there will be less floatation with the narrow tire. Floatation when driving down a snow accumulated highway is bad news. The only time I ever left the road was driving through an unexpected snow storm driving to visit family for the holidays. Snow removal was not keeping up with accumulation, and soon the car was disconnected and floating, even driving 30 MPH on a 60 MPH highway... Though it is more difficult to test scenario, than a snow packed track.
Also I can think of a benefit to snow braking with a wider tire, provided ABS doesn't interfere too much. You get the best snow braking from building up a wedge of snow in front of the tire. Wider tire = wider wedge...
I'd probably do what I've always done, go to smaller steel wheels, with taller sidewall, and maybe one step reduction in width. This ends up being less expensive, than wider aspect tires anyway.
Actually a properly set up skinny tire provides more floatation than the wide tire when appropriately selected and aired... This may seem counterintuitive but this is desirable.
In this test, they ran an UNDERSIZED skinny tire with the same load rating as the wide tire, so required the same air pressure to carry the load safely. No sane person would go with a smaller diameter tire for their winter tire. It's best to oversize on the diameter while stepping down on the width and wheel sizes to get the LONGEST tread patch possible.
By stepping down to a smaller rim, and sizing up the diameter, we can get more load index, which generally buys about a 3-8PSI advantage in load carrying, allowing the tires to be operated at lower pressure and a larger contact patch. The tire size they SHOULD have run for this test, is a 205/65R16 or 215/60R16, which can both carry the BMW tested at 30PSI rather than the 35PSI on the door.
A 255/35R19, has very poor floatation as its contact patch is very wide and short, so it "squeezes out" the snow/slush in front of the tire rather than climb the snow and gradually pack it down. A 205/65R16, operating at reduced air pressure for the same load, has fantastic floatation, as its contact patch is closer to a perfect square, and the weight transfers gradually as the tire climbs up on top and packs down a track that it can hold a grip on and continue to climb through.
My OE tire size on car is a 235/40R18 XL @ 38PSI for full load and/or for high speeds, 33PSI for comfort with lower load/speeds. I run 215/60R16 @ 33-35PSI for daily driving in good weather, and air down to 30PSI front and 26PSI rear for ice/snow. On my SUV, the 315/75R16's are aired down as low as 8-10PSI for ultra deep snow, which produces a contact patch that is about 10" wide X15" long. This "climbs" on top of deep snow rather than dig down and high center.
@@mdocod While Floatation may be desirable driving low speed, in deep snow offroad, I don't think it's what you want operating on road, at higher speed. You want to squish snow out of the way and get down to the road surface.
Look what Rally Drivers use for Winter Stages. They use ultra skinny pizza cutters, with width as low as 145mm!
@@peterscott2662 The rally tires aren't trying to float, they have spikes on them, they are trying to bite. Very different approach than a studdless road going tire.
@@mdocod Road drivers aren't trying to float either. It's the same thing. On the highway, you want to bite down to the road surface. Only 4x4 drivers with big fat tires going relatively slow of the beaten track, should be looking for floatation.
When you are driving down a highway and hit a patch of blown snow. You want a tire that bites down, not floats, which is like hydroplaning, but on snow.
@@peterscott2662 No, it's not the same thing. A studdless tire in ANY of the sizes up for consideration here is NOT going to "bite" down to anything except when conditions are basically standing water and slush. They are all just going to interact with packed snow and ice of various types... If a 30T plow truck running on tires at 110PSI can't "bite down" to the road on packed snow how do you think a sedan is going to?
A hight profile tyre is better it provide a softer side wall and can be aired down for more traction in heavy snow
Sad and expected at the same time. Great and professional test as always. Keep up in the same way.
The question everyone is asking for years. Thanks!
I used to have a VW Fox. That thing had the skinniest tyres. When trying to climb through snow slowly preventing getting stuck it would go around half ton trucks and much larger vehicles. Was astounding how well it ran in the snow and never seems to get stuck. Lol.
Yes, light cars are a cheat for critical snow.
I moved lots of time over swiss mountain roads in winter. And the old Mitsubishi colts where goats, when BMW X3's and other volvo XC's where coming back at you because they where sliddering all over the place.
I guess very light weight and the engine exactly where the traction is generated, is the best way to move around.
I knew someone in the 90s who drove a Citroen 2CV.
The skinny wheels seemed to get him through the worst of snow.
The 2cv had high clearance and low power which probably made most of the difference?
My Daf 44 on Michelin XZX was brilliant on snow. Mostly down to the very smooth variomatic drive system which drove each rear wheel indepently.
So informative, love the video!
Highly interesting video! Thank you!
Rally on snow stages happen exclusively on narrow tyres as far as I'm concerned. If narrow is picked in winter motorsports then that's all I need to know.
WRC tires are almost more studs than rubber. Much bigger studs too as they don't care about road damage. Completely different design, application and requirements. Obviously, they have their reasons for going narrow, but I don't think we can just assume that under normal driving with consumer tires that narrow is always better. This video being proof of that.
@@RicHSAD2 you can install studs in any tyre. Would be interesting to hear why they went narrow. Probably it has nothing to do with the traction aids, but that's just my two cents.
My guess would be that when the car hits a snow bank or a deeper area, the narrower it is the less drag the car will see that could upset it or spin it.
Narrower tires also give you more space in the wheel well so it is easier for the tires to flush out the snow/slush without the wheel well getting full of ice/snow. Once the wheel well gets fully packed with ice and snow to the point of touching or nearly touching the tire, there is a very significant drop in all traction as the tire can no longer release the new snow/slush in the tread.
Also, I always get the narrower/higher sidewall tires in winter for the improved comfort (bumpy roads with ice and new potholes yet to be repaired) combined with the often significantly lower price.
Great work as usual
Awesome, another review! Love it. I talked to my tire shop today because I need to replace my winter tires and we were discussing brands (Continental vs Hankook) and according to my tire shop guy, who I think I can trust, the two brands are not equal in terms of quality. He says according to his experience on average the wear behaviour on Hankooks is significantly worse than Continental and Hankooks are a lot more problematic in terms of balancing (he needs more weights). Is this something you can confirm @tyre reviews?
It would be interesting to test the same tires on dry and wet surfaces, as many people use them 99% in these circumstances instead of on snow or ice.
I personally have had smaller and narrower winter tires in the past, but nowadays I prefer sticking to the same 18" 245mm size with a performance oriented winter tire. That way I don't give up too much handling in the dry and wet compared to my summer tires.
I wonder how much of the narrower tire's braking advantage was just lower inertia from reduced weight vs actual grip improvement.
ooo interesting point
Very valuable information, thank you for making the video
Hey Jon, any plans for a video on the difference unsprung weight does? I get that it’s more beneficial to cornering and acceleration, but the internet argues that it’s like 1:4 - 1:10 equivalent ratio to sprung weight. Would appreciate your input and actual track testing to quantify it as well as your subjective input. Keep up the good work!
Tyre width will have less effect on hard packed ice and snow. As you perfectly demonstrated. You will find more differences on slush or/and wet asphalt.
Also a simular test to this only with nordic winter tyres would ve apreciated. Keep up the great content :)
That track is essiantially the best condition possible.
Try to drive in half melted slush that suddently wants to make your car go straight. I have a feeling that narrower tire will be better.
Excellent video. Thank you!!
Awesome research. I went with 225/45R17 Nokian Hakkapeliitta R5's on 7.5" wide rims for our 2019 VW GTI vs. the narrower 205/50R17 tires. I agree that getting the best tire is most important, I preferred the extra rim protection and the dry pavement handling that you will still have plenty of during winter.