These GPUs are cracking and the company REFUSES to warranty them!
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2023
- Gigabyte 30 Series GPUs have started cracking and Gigabyte REFUSES to warranty them! This needs to be addressed and possible sued! Check out Louis Rossmann's video here • Gigabyte's response to...
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WRONG. Please be more careful when doing measurements. it is easily readable @ 8:34 that the pcb is 1.6mm thick. I paused the video here - I can only imagine how skewed this is going to be.
For the record, I love your videos Jay, I just know that this is probably already in the comments or will be for certain in the future.
Good catch! I pinned this comment so that people can see the correct measurement. Either way, the flex is still real.
The notch/gap above the tab is much larger on the Gigabyte card. That small radius on the ASUS card just looks stronger.
@@Jayztwocents jay dont take video down. LOL but i can here him now Dammit i did it again. I quit! LOL
@@Jayztwocents Also the ASUS card has a backplate mount right next to the tab which totally stiffens and supports that area of the PCB.
I was about to make a similar comment but seen this one so just gave your comment a thumbs up.
So building bigger and bigger cards while shaving down construction to save money turns out was a bad idea?
actually smart idea for manufacturer to sell more GPUs once current broken.
Just for the customer since companies refuse to rma them anyway 🤣
It's not a bad idea if they don't cover the warranty anyways
Isn't that how the auto industry went down the toilet?
@@naomardros Yeah one really loves those brittle BMW plastics in the engine bay or the very shitty silicate cylinder walls of failing mercedes pieces of shit... (There are many, many , many more examples from way to cheap electrics to very thin timing chains, to half baked transmissions in not so smart smart cars or exploitable key systems in hyundais)
with how big graphics cards are getting i think its time for a new industry standard of how they mount to the motherboard or a case
Might be time to make the gpu THE motherboard, and mount your cpu on to it instead.
@@adreanmarantz2103 we need something like a sxm2 socket (big gpu m.2 slot like thing) on mobos, with a mounted cooler
I've always worried about the way gpus are mounted to mobos. Old school video game consoles have a stronger connection than gpus to mobos.
agreed...this is why I have moved to vertical mount (plus it looks cool)
Yeah same but was not a choice my sata plug was blocking my gpu to fully plug in , but at the end i was like it look way more cool this way and i can see all the led from the gpu (4070 msi gamingX)
Can we just stop and admire how absolutely huge these cards are? Of course they're flimsy, they' re TOO BIG.
My Powercolor 6700 XT gets absolutely dwarfed by these monsters.
it is just the cooling requirement. every pc has a different layout, you can't put in a bracket that fits every PC anyway. why would they?
That's why u always use GPU brackets, anything bigger than a 3070 or 6700xt, I use a support bracket to hold it up
@@Keullo-eFIN Same gpu gang LoL
Will miss having a brand like EVGA that stands by their products in the GPU space
Asus voids warranties for dust on fans, they sure void warranty for pcb damage. meanwhile over at EVGA buy a GTX 660($50) bstock and they sent me a 1060 6gb($150).
Help me EVGA-kenobi, you are my only hope.
Ironically the best GPU vendor right now seems to be Sapphire and they only make AMD cards.
@@Jasontvnd9 Sapphire has just always been the best though, yes, even better than EVGA.
Sapphire had a time when they were kind of jank, but this was wayyyyy back in the day like think ATi 9700Pro. But I've had plenty of Power Color and Sapphire cards and have been happy with both.@@PineyJustice
aaaand now you know why EVGA couldn't afford to keep making cards lol
This is one of those situations where I doubt I'll ever run into the problem, but I'm still going to avoid the brand because they've cultivated such a bad reputation about their customer service that I don't even want to risk it. Good job, Gigabyte.
Of all my builds I've ever only had one part fail in short order, a Gigabyte MB. sure it could happen to anyone but it was the first (and last) that i purchased from them.
Who are you going to go with?
Asus?
Not after their motherboard firmware issue
Gigabyte?
Not after this issue
EVGA?
They dont do NVIDIA anymore
MSI?
Galax?
@@IIGrayfoxII asus gpu is still good, only their mb have a problem
@@IIGrayfoxII Asrock
@@longnguyencaotuan2267 it's not about did a brand have or did not have a problem with said product. It's about how they handled the problem.
This just happened to me with my 4080 waterforce that comes pre installed with a waterblock gigabyte is sending me a replacement card with no questions asked. I have a feeling your video is why this process seems to be going smoothly for me . Please keep making these types of videos to keep them accountable.
This is not the first time Gigabyte has done something like this either. They released 30 series cards with their "Waterforce" coolers that mixed aluminum and nickel [I think?] during the cooling process which caused the whole thing to corrode itself and die.
My Gigabyte 1080 TI would freeze on default clocks, needed underclocking to not lock up. Never buying a gigabyte product again, add this and the exploding PSU's, bad caps in the past. Not worth rolling the dice.
@@nitehawk9270 I like my Aorus MOBO. its a B450 tho. lots of companies have gone downhill after covid it seems. cutting corners to make up for lost revenue i think.
it's good to see that an asus gpu is a good card even though it sucks that the gigabyte gpu is bad
Aluminum water path and copper for the coldplate. Guaranteed massive amounts of galvanic corrosion with chunks of the aluminum block floating around in your loop as it breaks apart.
Oh man now i am worried about my giga 1080 aio, its served me well all this time. Was going to pick up most likely a giga 7900 xtx but this is turning me away.
I wonder if the people that made the physical specs of the PCI bus ever imagined that there would be cards with that monster weight.
What's ironic is that when the ATX standard was created expansion cards were at their smallest. If you go back to the IBM XT there was nothing onboard except CPU, RAM and the Keyboard controller. Expansion cards were LONG like the length of a 104-key keyboard long. IBM had retaining clips on the front of their cases to physically support long expansion cards.
So this was a problem that was thought to have been solved by the time the ATX standard became a thing.
@@Shawn_White Some notes:
1. Cards were big, yes, but they weighted next no nothing compared to modern graphics cards thank to not having a kilogram or two of heatsink on them.
2. Computer cases back then rarely were towers so cards were way better supported.
@@szlatyka And despite points 1 & 2 the IBM PC had slots in the front of the case that could easily have solved the GPU sag problem had they remained part of the spec while modern PC's don't.
@@szlatykaThat was also the era when HDDs were large, optional accessories, and sometimes mounted directly on the add-in controller card. So big, heavy cards _did_ exist back then.
@@Shawn_White You also needed an expansion card for fricken everything.
Got rid of Gigabyte immediately once I found their software sucks and their RMA process is absolute trash. Now this, I ain't surprised.
Gigabyte ships literal malware in their motherboard software and UEFI BIOS
UEFI Vulnerability in 2023
CosmicStrand rootkit in 2022
AvosLocker Ransomware in 2021
RobbinHood Ransomware in 2020
@@Haskellerz That's actually quite sad. When I first built my computer back in 2019 I started off with a Gigabyte Aorus B450 Pro WiFi motherboard. It worked perfectly fine (and still does) with my Ryzen 1700. But when I updated the bios to give further cpu support so I could upgrade my system with the 3700X I bought it did nothing but blue screen afterward.
Come to find out through another CZcamsr because of a setting in the bios my board just absolutely hated the 3700X I was trying to upgrade to. So I just said screw and used that as an opportunity to buy my current MSI X570 MPG Gaming EDGE WiFi. I've done repeated bios updates to it over the years and have had absolutely no problems with it.
So for me as far as hardware goes with the current problems floating about MSI and ASRock seem to be the most reliable of the few as far as AMD goes. For Intel that's going to be EVGA, MSI and ASRock. As nice as ASUS's boards look I can't trust them with the BIOS crap they were trying to pull.
@@Haskellerz not trying to defend gigabyte here but at least cosmicstrand hit asus as well. You also make it sound like they do this on purpose. Maybe they should indeed check thwir security since it seems to keep happening, but i'm honestly glad that they didn't just hide those problems like other companies do (didn't have a gigabyte board so i might also be wrong, but that's how it looks to me)
Sorry to say but every aibs software is a bloated nightmare
As GPUs get larger, the vendors need to reinforce their structure. It seems ridiculous, that such a big vendor is making crap like this.
How far this company has fallen. I have a "Gigabyte GV-N950OC-2GD" GTX 950 (stupid naming) and it still works perfectly almost 8 years later
In comparison to the other card in this video, the one that is cracking has a larger, squarer notch with sharper corners. That's well-known to concentrate stress fractures - it was a contributing factor to the de Havilland Comet aircraft disasters of the 1950's.
This was my thought too.
Nice connection to the Comet ✈️
Solid deduction! That's why all airplanes started to make rounded corners for their windows. I really, *really* hope that both first- and third-party GPU manufacturers take note.
@@TevisC That's right, it's a common misconception that the windows were the failure point - it was actually some square cutouts elsewhere in the fuselage for other equipment.
Every AIB other than Asus used this design as well and their RTX 30X0 PCBs didn't cracked. I think the problem is that hole of the GPU mount is very close to the notch as on boards of other vendors. But Gigabyte doesn't use the backplate as the other vendors do and only depends on the PCB for the one cooler screw behind the notch on the Gaming and Vision models. In other words Gigabyte failed at the card design and seemingly failed again to recognising it themselves.
Another thing to consider is the geometry of the perimeter. Sharp angles tend to be where stress concentrates, making them the first place to fail. The ASUS card you showed was rounded and didn't extend as far from the rest of the pcb. Those two factors combined should make it both more rigid and less prone to strain at any single point
I was thinking that too. That's why plans and ship have rounded windows and doors.
@@winstonsmith84 *planes
One thing to remember: if it can't bend it will break ---- Having flex in that GB card is more likely because they learned the lesson: no screw-hole nearby, seemingly not much traces around the tab.
Rigid parts are more likely to break -- that Asus has a lot of traces/vias around the tab (that also can make it stiffer -- having copper inside vs. only the FR4 -- but if it is functional copper and breaks it can short or cut parts out) and the mounting post is very close (albeit not as close as in the pics from the broken cards)
Every card this size should come with a support bracket with actual thought put into mounting. I have seen this done even in the more value offerings from other brands, so there is no excuse at this class of GPU. What is actually happening is cost cutting from Gigabyte. Gigabyte cards gained lots of traction in previous years because they offered larger, triple fan coolers on many budget cards while maintaining a very low price, maybe the best cost to cooler ratio in the business. But cards were smaller back then, and even then they had a bad habit of pushing those same coolers onto hotter GPUs where despite looking big they were not appropriate. That trend of basically making their high end with cheap cut corners that only works in a very budget space has persisted.
Sapphire cards come with a support bracket that screws directly into the PCIe brackets on the case. Was so impressed to find that included when I switched to the 7900XTX Nitro+
I built a brand new gaming pc two months ago with an MSI RTX 4070Ti SUPRIM and in the box of the gpu I got a support bracket and a mouse pad so.. there are good companies who think about those type of things.
I dont understand why offer a warrantee if your not going to honor it man these company's need to just own up to this
Typical Gigabyte. A smd fell off of my X570SI during normal operation but apparently their poor manufacturing is my fault.
all these companies shooting themselves in leg, I dont get it
Because they want it to be just extra money in their pocket they don't wanna actually do anything for it
A warranty is nothing but a selling point and to make the buyer feel good. Companies often include so many loopholes they can legally deny it at the end of the day it's only as good as the worthless paper it's printed on.
I miss the long and upgradable evga warranty
I sometimes feel like we are heading into another tech dark age.
No kidding
When was the last one ?
I think it’s more everything cost so much no one cares to work and this quality is lost
We are already there. Big companies are just cutting corners to save money for share holders and making shoddy cards and it will only get worse because whales will always go out and buy there trash. I stopped using gigabyte years ago because they was starting to make cheap componants like there Mobos and no ASUS are joining in on the party and there have gone in the trash aswell.
Except this has been an ongoing problem with Gigabyte's products. I no longer buy Gigabyte anything.
PCB's are a composite of fiberglass and resin, and these tabs were designed in a time where these cards weighed many times less than they do now. It's kind of absurd that there haven't been more problems than this up until now.
why use solder when hot glue works just fine🤣🤣🤣
Could start class Action lawsuit for denying repairs. EVGA please come back to the market
Working at a PC repair center and while myself or my coworkers have not seen this, this is definitely good to know about going forward. As for Gigabyte themselves, we have had so much of their product coming back with defects and other issues that it's only reinforced my distrust and dislike for them. I've had both good and bad experiences with all the other major component manufacturers however only one has been consistently problematic over the last few years and that has been Gigabyte. From my own personal experiences with their hardware to what I have to deal with in the service center, I don't think I've seen so many different SKUs of product from a single manufacturer come back as Gigabyte has. From their monitors to their PSUs to their GPUs and mainboards, we've seen them all.
who deserves the consumer’s trust the most?
@@countercorps Nobody, not even themselves.
@@RAZGR1Z honestly not wrong. Over the last while we've had a massive uptick in everything from everyone coming back with defects
repair wiki has instructions on “Repairing a Cracked Gigabyte 30 or 40 series”
yup I stopped stocking anything of that brand years ago the z68 chipset boards were the last straw for me just like many of of their p35 boards I had many returns that would forget memory settings and refuse to boot which always overvolted the ram compared to what the bios reported as well as boot loop, or have other hard to track down intermittent warm boot issues, a long time ago gigabyte had a name for rock solid stability.. but since the p35 boards came out the failure rate is a bit too high for my liking...
I think the take-away from this is:
- Gigabyte isn't covering warranty for this issue.
- Gigabyte is showing up at the repair shop more than any other matching card. (Not sure this is factual yet)
- Try installing and removing card while case is on it's side to avoid torqueing.
- Support ANY 30 or 40 series brick in your case at all costs!
I doubt if vertical mounting will show the same result but, It's obvious that the card sizes are gown beyond the PCIe 16 connection or location on the MOBO. More dialog is needed, I 'thinks'. Thanks, Jay, for bringing this up! 😉
A local retailer is selling Asus 40 series cards with cracks that had apparently happened during transit, so it's not just limited to Gigabyte. Definitely an issue that has been around a couple of generations now.
I think its the combo of sagging and tight spaces making the release tab hard to reach. Fiberglass gets softer when its hot too btw. Wonder if bad airflow to that level of the system exacerbates it and lets the crack grow from the pressure of sagging.
I’m still amazed how huge these GPUs are and how it’s even acceptable
@Great Value Bleach Those cards also didn't weigh like 3 lbs either. Edit: My Xfx Merc is closer to 5 lbs.
tbh we're at a stage where things HAVE to get bigger for cooling purposes. like most of a 90 series is just cooling infrastructure to make sure the damn thing doesn't overheat and die. Like all the new CPUs are hitting a ceiling decided by their IHS, not any integral part of the chip
These aren't your average consumer GPU's though...
My pc weighs in at 25 kgs :)
@@TheTeremastercomon there is 3060s sold with this fan configuration, and 3090s sold with just a dual fan setup and they work just fine. It’s a gimmick to sell you overpriced cards that don’t perform much better in the temp department. Best cooling is water cooling anyways
1. Unless you have to, don't pull calipers off when measuring. Otherwise you get this error
2. You can see ASUS braced near the retention tab, which will help prevent that massive flex.
3. Here's another benefit of vertical mounting with a riser cable.
6:50 the reduced flex on that part of the ASUS board is due to that screw pillar being fastened nearby. A nice design touch to add some support to the PCB in that key area really.
Sounds like all cards could use a support! I've been using the small piece of high density foam that cards come packed in for years as a "BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY" solution.
I could do that as well since I put an aftermarket cooler (Raijintek Morpheus II) on my 6700 XT and I see a little sag now.
My MSI 3060 ti came with a weight support which worked great
As a gamer working in an institute focused on reliability of microelectronics, this and the last couple years just hurt my heart badly. Especially as (gaming) pc hardware that seems to struggle so much lately is one of the very few consumer products that have rarely to never reached our institute. Really makes it seem like they don't give a ...
Welcome to the post covid era, 2020s. Really sad, history repeats itself.
The base PCB materials are fiberglass and resin. There are different qualities of fiberglass (i.e. regarding the length and thickness of the fibers), and the material properties can be adjusted by using different fiberglass to resin ratios. The orientation of the stacked fiberglass layers can have an impact aswell, as you want to rotate them relative to each other in order to improve tensile strength in every direction.
The whole issue could be a cost-saving thing, an engineering/assembly oversight or a source materials quality issue.
In this case, it's probably not a difference in PCB material but rather the fact the Asus card has a standoffs that connects the rear heat sink to the front heat sink on either side of the PCIe connector. That'll do a lot to make the card significantly more rigid in those two spots because you'd need to flex not only the PCB but also the entire cooling solution. I get the feeling that this was probably an intentional design decision because all their cards since the 10 series (or earlier) have these same heat sink mounting points.
It is also likely a design issue. The gigabyte one is using a non-standard tab that is thinner and has sharper corners, which will both result in weaker parts. If you look at the comparison between the tabs the Asus one uses a stronger shape for the tab.
Adding solid copper fill to all layers would make more difference to strength and rigidity than the flavor of FR-4 that was used. Actually I'm surprised that manufacturers generally don't use copper fill on internal layers in the tab area (obvious as it passes the light). Not to say it would not cost anything at all as copper foil is already there and is etched during manufacturing, not added. Also I totally agree with @ckitching2.
I always try to make sure that the video card has a zip tie attached to handle the weight. Some CPU cooler towers are similar and bend the board from their weight. A simple strap to keep it in place against gravity is an easy fix for this. An even simpler option is to simply lay the whole thing on its side so that weight is a moot point. With the advent of bottom PSU cases with the intake for it up against carpet, this also will lower PSU heat considerably.
As someone looking at building a new PC for the first time in 20 years (last build was a Pentium 4 in late 2003!), I really appreciate you bringing this to attention. I do not want (and cannot afford) for my new PC to fall apart with no backup!
Having had to remove hundreds of video cards over the years, one trick that I've found is that sometimes I need to push the card down into the slot in order to get the release tab to actually release. It seems counter-intuitive, but by pushing down it lessens some of the tension on the tab. You just have to be careful not to push too hard that you could damage the MoBo.
So you would push down while pushing on the release tab ?
@@mire873 Yeah, I've found that sometimes I need to push the card down into the slot while I simultaneously push on the release tab. Not always, but sometimes it just catches and won't release otherwise.
@@Jito463 I remember this with older boards, but my last 3 or 4 boards barely strapped the thing -
Awareness of issues is a good thing, it's not all 'TikTok-brain' drama. Knowledge and shining light on issues can enable change, fanboi'ism and coverups do F*all. We must know and remember how companies deal with issues. Thanks Jay and team
Pretty much current GPU's really should be supported on the outer corner area.
I also agree that the rear panel area that attaches to the case should be physically attached to the cooler as well to increase rigidity and support.
I have a 3090ti (different brand) and my PC case came with the ability and needed adjustable parts to support the GPU on the off case end.
As expensive an heavy as these cards are now I cannot understand anyone not wanting to give these cards additional support as a safeguard against damage.
We need to start thinking of these gpu's as being more fragile and subject to damage the same we do when handling a CPU and the pins on one of those.
Woah, how did you miss that measurement while editing. It was ridiculously clear... Steve from GN's gonna make a video about you next :P
I was scrolling through eBay about a month ago and I kept coming across listings of Gigabyte GPUs that were for parts or not working. Back then I personally thought nothing of it but now this video has really shed some light on a lot of those listings!
Gigashite having GPUs melting over unlocked fps has been a thing for a while..
I wonder how many of these cracked GPU's are in pre-built rigs? The stress of going through shipping is amazing! I have seen entire PCIE slots ripped out of the botherboard. Even if you brace the GPU's with packing foam, it could still take a lot of stress from a bump.
I was going to say this, I've also seen quite a few Gigabyte Eagle series in prebuilts too.
Lenovo 3060 I checked has 3 screws through the backplate edge over the slot area, and two more at the ends along the edge, and an additional screwed down end bracket, so its just a design thing.
It's not specifically a shipping issue. I own an electronic repairs shop and we've had about 400 of these gigabyte cards since the 30 series released. Out of those, 7 were ship to home units. I don't doubt that shipping could be a factor in broken cards, but usually that will be taken care of by the seller warranty, also not a lot of pre-builts use Gigabyte cards. While I haven't seen this issue with any card that isn't Gigabyte, I can't say if that's because other cards aren't cracking, or if other manufacturers are just honoring their warranty unlike Gigabyte. Either way, to core lesson is still the same, don't buy a gpu from Gigabyte. Honestly just avoiding Gigabyte in general isn't a bad idea based on their response to major issues in the past few years.
@@flyingtentacle7631 Don't buy GPU, don''t buy anything from Gigabyte. PSU on fire, and motherboards fail and crappy usb that don't work.
@@bmwguy2009 No problems with my B550 board though. And I used many of their graphics cards until 1080 Ti and every single of them worked perfectly fine.
@jayztwocents 14:10 something important to note is the amount of space between the tab and the rest of the PCB. The gigabyte card has a very large gap between the tab and pcb, whereas the other card has significantly less of a gap. The large square cutout makes the gigabyte card have a longer lever at that point, but the small cutout on the other card is much smaller, therefore a shorter lever. Like pushing on a door from the handle vs near the hinge. Hopefully what I’m saying makes sense. The fact that it feels stronger despite the thinner material points to this being a physics issue.
This was my first thought as well. At 6:50 you can see the Asus has a metal pillar there to add strength. A 3d printed snap in gusset would solve this issue I think
The funny thing is... most of the 4090 cards that were cracked in the NorthRidgeFix video were actually the ASUS RTX 4090's vs the Gigabyte RTX 4090's. Also, the bendability of the Gigabyte cards might be keeping it from being as brittle in the same tab cracking conditions that some of these cards are experiencing...
I'd assume the extra rigidity of the asus card comes from the posts mounted close to the tab, reducing the length of the board that can bend. Sort of like having 2 sticks of equal thickness, one being 2ft long the other being 2 inchs, one will be easier to break than the other, even though they are identical thicknesses.
That detail that you point out added to the screws that fix the cooler to the rear support plate indicates that Asus has better engineering applied in terms of card support stability
Thank you for pointing this out I was hoping I would find this in the comments.
I’d like to add that the notch (for lack of a better term) is also somewhere where stress concentration will increase due to the change in geometry. The higher Kt associated with the change in geometry will increase the likelihood of a stress fracture. That post in the other GPU not only provides stability against the cantilever force but also helps minimize the effects of the notch geometry by providing stability closer to point of issue.
I’m not a mechanics guy but I’d also suspect a graphics card with the copper traces mixed with other material may perform non-monotonically. My day job is lighting stuff on fire so take the last paragraph with a grain of salt
I saw that too, but not only that, the Gigabyte card has a big section of the PCB above the tab cut away as well. Leaving less PCB material and making the tab "longer" if you get what I mean.
My asus tuf sags don't know if it's enough to break it eventually . . . .
Propped it up level with an old smint tin 😂
There is a standoff right next to the bracket on the ASUS card therefore you have a shorter distance to bend, so while it might be thinner it is a much shorter and thus harder to bend area
That's the thing that I noticed right away. It's more than likely the reason why it's not flexing so much.
@@majorschemer4872 I agree
Hi Jay. Currently a RTX 4090 Aorus Master for sale on EBay Australia. Same issue cracked PCB at the retention lug. Looks like it's going to be an ongoing issue. Maybe the design of this lug was never designed to handle the weight of modern GPUs. Keep up the good work.
Hey Jay, I think the reason the tab is more flexible when you bend it on the Gigabyte card is because it is not supported as much as the other card. Just look how the tab connects to the whole card itself. I'm no engineer but with the circle cut underneath the tab on the other card and the tab being in closer is just looks like it would be more sturdy.
you’re right. on top of that, the radius around the tab corners are too small. this can create a large stress around the edge of the tab when the tab is being flexed. thicker tab would would not make it harder to bend when the neck is too long. In fact it creates more stress when a thicker tab is being bent. overall its just a bad design comparing with the Asus one.
There's nothing in this world that doesn't flex if you push hard enough -Jay. This is the old world philosophy I'm here for.
6:00 I've had some *_VERY_* weird problems with chassis fitment over the past few years. Not only for GPUs but for coolers and radiators as well. Specific to this discussion, I've seen PC cases where the PCIe slots (COVERS REMOVED, YES!) on the rear of the chassis actually not to bent outwards to accommodate the GPU properly.
Good to know about this. I have a gigabyte card but vertically mounted, but I'll be careful with it if I take it out again.
The obvious differences in the Asus card that makes it stronger at the tab is that it has a screw down brace slightly forward and up from the tab and , not only does the Gigabyte card not have that brace , but it has a huge cut out of material right there making the tab weaker still .
Hey Jay, great video to bring awareness to this issue! However I believe the Asus card may have felt stiffer due to it having a cooler support right next to the locking tab. In the video you can see the Gigabyte flexing at a much farther point into the pcb than the Asus due to it not having that support. Just thought you may want to look at this. Appreciate you!
Yep there is a support post on the Asus card right next to the tab which would cause the tab to feel more rigid. The gigabyte pcb is flexing over a long distance of pcb.
@@Hagop64 First think I noticed too.
Exactly, that support for the cooler adds a bunch of rigidity and it also has more material on the PCB where the Gigabyte card is all notched out, putting a lot of leverage on the tab. The Gigabyte card doesn't even have PCB material where that brace is on the ASUS card.
Actually, interesting physics nuance
.
Higher rigidity technically increases risk of cracking due to outside factor/pressure, as it is opposite to plasticity and flexibility. And that is issue of proper support engineering.
Sag deepness and outside forces are what you need to look for. Who knows what these people did to cards before cracks appeared. In masses consumers aren't even close to being as advanced and knowledgeable as enthusiasts.
Asus also has a long history as a premium manufacturer, whereas gigabyte has built their reputation on being cheap and probably good enough.
This is why I have a GPU holder just in case and to give the card the most support possible as it will sit there for years.
When insisting and extraction you should always get a hand in the card when the card is not secured to the case just to help keep pressure off the card because these are heavy, especially the 4090.
So just for info, PCBs are made of fiberglass and resin. Depending on the quality of the resin, you can get different rigidity of the PCB. Most PCBs have 4-8 layers of fiberglas, the more layers the stronger and thicker PCB. it is all balance. To rigid it will be more crisp and crack easier, too soft. you will also deal with much more strain on solder points of the board, like close to the edge components, where solder would break and sensitive BGA components like DRAM could loose contact
Reminds me of issues we used to have with slot CPUs back in the day, mostly due to the weight of the coolers.
It's the radius to a straight line, you're losing a lot of strength compared to the double radius on the other card. And as long as that straight is, you're looking at the long and slender condition modifier coming into play.
Two things of note, the PCB should be the same thickness on each card and the physical design is responsible for that extra flex. The locking cutout is much smaller on asus and adds to board rigidity
Yes. The larger notch is easier to flex than a smaller one.
@@VoldoronGaming Exactly!
Structural rigidity is achieved on the ASUS card by the screw right above the tab. Adding thos screws create additional assembly steps, screwing has to be controlled, there is a higher ppm (rejection) on the line. So at the end it will be a little bit expensive. So when people are buying cards from the lowest price tags they are actually taking small risks where corners were cut. I'm dealing with serial care. The manufacturer obviously going to deny warrenty. I mean cracking that tab could have been caused by assembly or disassembly and PCB strain is a typical silent killer.
Aren't we overdue to create a new interface format for graphics cards? These beasts now need to be packaged in their own separate box!
Got 2 of these Gigabyte 4080s for 2 new rigs... will the anti-sag bracket included on the Fractal Torrent be sufficient from preventing issues with cracking?
The extra flex is likely due to the different shapes of the PCB around the tab. The Gigabyte design creates a much larger cantilever than the Asus design. That's probably the defect right there. That shape probably can't withstand normal handling more than a few cycles.
Any idea to how we could avoid the pcb to break?
That plus the ASUS card has the PCB braced to the cooler right next to the tab. The Gigabyte card has that whole area notched out where ASUS has more PCB material and a brace.
Be careful? More substantively what Gigabyte could do is to send customers a stiffening kit consisting of an adhesive backed piece of FR4 (PCB material) that bridges over that square gap and the area that keeps cracking. Customers would stick that to their still working board to protect it. That's a fairly cheap solution that would prevent a flood of RMAs.
@@Alonne1 use support standoffs. No sag = no flex = no stress = no PCB cracking. At least in theory.
or because it has a standoff for the cooler, the mounting of that doesnt allow the extra flex because it provides structural rigidity
That Asus card has a mechanical reinforcement right by the tab by way of the really long standoff that looks to be tying the cooler face plate to the backplate which ties the PCB to the backplate at that point providing more stiffness.
Not sure how much the standoff would help but the curve radius where the tab joins is also larger on the ASUS which would distribute stress over a wider area. Corners/sharp edges are going to break first.
@@jamessnyder3807 The brace on the ASUS card makes a huge difference.
This looks like damage from not releasing the PCI Express tab locking mechanism first before removing the card. So what does it look like when someone is pulling there card as it's locked to the slot before unlocking the tab? Also some damage from gpu sag?
Thanks for making this video Jay and Co. I'm going to have a look at my 4080 and its seating after work.
Just noticed something from the thumbnail, the G/B PCB has a larger inset cutout by the tab (meaning less actual PCB structure in the area) that looks like it would make it more succeptable to stress fractures, which is probably why the Asus feels sturdier as well.
same.
The ASUS also has a post that attaches to the cooler that looks like it's helping with rigidity
Jay, you guys and other tech-tubers, are like the heros of the tech world, using your popularity and influence to point out anti consumer practices to shame these companies into doing the right thing, you have my respect sir, and gratitude
Heroes not hero's.
Hero's = hero is
@@-vedana 😆 of course, I’m pretty sure that was autocorrect
This video came out 9 days ago and the mats are ALREADY gone? Listen, I just discovered you, and I have to say... those original mats are STUNNING!!! Please restock!
Look at the size of them!!! Its not a surprise that support braces and brackets are now becoming a thing, I dont really know why they dont have a fold out adjustable arm to support them built in.
As mentioned in several other comments, it does appear that the difference in flex is due to the mount located really close to the edge on that other card.
I think so too.
I dont think manufacturers use different materials aswell
GPU sag can cause BGA failure, most typically on the memory modules closest to the PCIE slot and occasionally the GPU core itself. The pcie tab cracking is caused almost universally by movement in shipping in a prebuilt, which can also cause BGA failure. All heavy cooler cards are susceptible to this, but Gigabyte's 3080-3090ti has a cooler screw hole very close to the locking tab creating an area especially susceptible to cracking over and above that found in other GPUs. They effectively did the opposite of reinforcing an inherent weak point. They then compounded this by routing small and critical traces through the area, where other AIBs have not. I recently repaired an MSI 3080 Suprim with a crack in at the PCIE locking tab, it had three faulty memory modules, almost certainly BGA damage caused at the same time as the pcie locking tab crack. I replaced the modules and the card works fine now, it's still got the pcie locking tab crack, and it's a worse crack than on the GB 3080ti pic of mine (the one ground down through the layers prior to repair attempt) featured in Louis' original video on this subject.
I had an mainboard where that tap lock was so hard to push that it ended with me doing some minor changes on the mainboard so that the lock did not lock anything anymore. The downside of that is that the card won't be solid locked into place and it might slip out if a train goes by so your house vibrates a bit. But for that mainboard that didn't matter and it made it so easy to change the graphiccard that it wasn't even funny. I just wish they could find a better way of doing it and made sure that sagging wasn't an issue. But fixing such things would cost someone money so chances that it will be fixed are not good.
There is a reason why I have my cards tied up since basically forever. Even as far back as my HD 4870 back in the day.
And full length (12.5'') cards used to be also mounted at the other end of the card towards the front of the case. Mainly a server thing, but the same connector, so they also worked just as well in desktop machines.
Gigabyte boycott in 3...2...1
I've been avoiding Gigabyte for a decade, they regularly have the most RMA's, they just don't do any QA to save costs, that's why they tend to be the cheapest. Cheap and nasty!
The Canada computer guy show their rma room with 90% gigabyte products 🤦🤦🤦 avoid at all cost
@@GamingNinja4633 theyre far from the cheapest
At this rate we're gonna have to boycott all of the companies 😂
or use a gpu support. Or have a Mobo that has extra support.
Jay, see if you can use a precision pressure test gauge to see how much lb you pushing onto that tab to get it to flex. This way we can at least see how much is needed to get to flex and inevitably crack.
Gigabyte has had weak PCB material since at least the Z370 Motherboards. I had to RMA a motherboard because the VRMs weren't making full contact with their cooler. Lots of people with the same board had the same issue. Turns out it was the tension of the cooler causing the board to bend, which prevented full contact with the chips. People were having to add acrylic for extra rigidity.
It's only gonna get worse I think, the PCIE slots should be physically adjusted to accomodate these monsters. The 4090 is like 2500g which is crazy.
There's a screw point being used for the cooler closer to the notch on the Asus card, where the Gigabite one has none, which may be helping on the tension of the PCB itself.
I couldn't say it better myself.
At this point, any build I do has to use an anti-sag bracket. Gigabyte/Aorus is providing a bracket with their 40 series cards. At least as low as the 4070 Ti that I know of. Lian LI also has a bracket they sell. They mention it for their Lancool II Mesh case, but it'll work in any case.
Graphics cards are just really heavy these days. All graphics card manufacturer's should be providing a solution. And in my opinion, one that is elegant, simple, and doesn't offend the senses.
Same here. I only have a 3060ti and i picked up one for it. It's like cheap insurance for our GPU investment. If we're going to spend hundreds.... or into the thousands for a card, forking out an extra $20 for a bracket is a no brainer.
I got a 4090 gigabyte and after setting up the bracket I realized the mount doesn’t work with my MSI motherboard x670e carbon fiber the lengths were way off so I had to go buy a third party bracket kinda sucked because I bought gigabyte for the mounted bracket incentive
@@kylesuarez5071 Yeah, that sucks man. Nothing seems to work in all situations. I had some issues even with the ones I mentioned. Maybe case manufacturer's should try to come up with a solution.
Even on the RX 580 I had which was also GIGABYTE, I had to install an anti-sag bracket, as the PCIe contacts on the top side of the card got worn bad, most likely due to vibration. Bottom side is all good and clean.
It was causing freezes or black screens whenever I plug a cable or someone walks by.
really thankful for my vertical mounted case right about now
This is great. Love the video. I wish they would apply brackets to the Coolers in addition to the the one on the card so you can screw down the cooler too. Since they are now 3 to 4 slots wide now why not have a single slot brace on the cooler too. I would want it to be separate from the card slot brackets to be clear. You might be able to do a mod to a cooler to add a bracket. Have not tried one because I am water cooled.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gigabyte is going to face a major class action lawsuit and or people just flat out boycotting all Gigabyte branded products.
Just boycott
Oh hey look at that, my new gaming pc with 0 Asus, Gigabyte, or Nvidia parts... How did that happen?
Don't buy gigabyte: mobos are malware, gpu are broken
@@oplefiremamd+asrock
I don't know why people don't learn. Gigabyte will never do the right thing for their consumers. Gigabytes business model relies on people never being able to RMA a device. This is on the gigabyte business administration side of the company. The engineering is actually very good, except when they use substandard pieces. But that also comes down to the business administration side of the company. The key is that they will never be fair to the consumer. Once you've bought their product they simply do not care about you. They will never do the right thing. This has been true for two or more decades
Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention, Jay - and crew!
Just bought a 4070 Windforce from Micro Center. Really happy they talked me into the store warranty now
Hey what about the anti-sag bracket that ships with thoes gigabyte cards? I have the 4080 version of that card and the included anti sag bracket seems to fix the triangulation issue you mentioned. It mounts to the motherboard standoffs and does a pretty good job.
Its also been happening to MSI cards, in particular I've seen it a lot for the Ventus cards. MSI puts on that same red arrow dot, and denied warranty claims.
Has happened recently with some brands old 2080 supers I've been seeing too.
Concerns like this are why I went with the MSI 3070ti. It came with a GPU support arm. And the arm ACTUALLY works. Zero sag, even reduced what little vibration that was occurring with previous cards.
How's that 8gb of vram? Haha
Yeah I watched the Louis Rossman then yours I bought a 3080 OC close to a year now I never noticed it next time i take it out for maintenance ill take a closer look at it I mount mine horizontal like always I won't need to upgrade form a long time unless something fails but thanks for letting us know as this is news to me.
I use the supplied support arm with my gigachad 4090. I doubt it helps much since it contacts the flimsy plastic fan covers and it contacts toward the mobo which is not the best place to support. I'm thinking to tension the pci power cable which in theory would support the card very well
Looking at your close-up's of the two cards it looks like the ASUS card is more rigid in that same spot because it has a nice tall stand-off that's part of the air cooler. Which is a big help. The Gigabyte card doesn't have that extra rigidity of any extra support. It's disappointing that Gigabyte is screwing over customers when it comes to warranty because I really love the looks of the Gigabyte AERO cards. The white and silver matches my build. :)
I noticed that too. I'm not an engineer, but that additional rigidity can't hurt. Also the PCB doesn't have that slight cutout above the tab giving it a little more material and less room to flex. As for the cracking, just like electricity, once pressure is mounted the path of least of resistance is going to be where it splits, and that's going to be the trace.
Absolutely! Pretty ridiculous they completely overlooked that standoff right next to the tab
@@mattg8593 I can't really blame Jay too much for missing it. He was more than likely focused more on showing the differences in flex versus seeing the details that made the ASUS card more rigid. When you have a concern over a product with a problem known by the manufacturer and you want to inform viewers who might have bought it you tend to gloss over the small details that make the competitors card more rigid.
@@sarges1712 I'm no engineer or rocket scientist either. But when I saw Jay's close-up's I picked up the different between the two immediately.
My job consists of fulfilling customer orders on a daily basis. So I have to be more observant than the average person. If I don't catch things it could mean a messed up order and a very unhappy customer.
I'm not surprised about the traces getting messed up. There's quite literally nothing there to begin with making it work in the first place.
It's the same problem when restoring vintage electronics. The protective masking coat on the PCB will get ruined over time and the copper traces will get destroyed from corrosion. Bad enough to where the same technique of using tiny wire to rebuild the trace is required.
What makes this situation worse is it's on a brand new $2,000 graphics card and not a 30+ year old game console. To top that the maker is well aware of the problem existing but doesn't want to give a refund when the problem happens.
one reason ive gone vertical mount. either way it can still break but id rather not allow possible sagging being an issue. does not excuse poor design or structuring of parts.
I built my PC in a case that holds the motherboard horizontally. I never liked how vertical motherboards (tower PCs) hold everything sideways. No issues other than it having a slightly larger footprint on my desk. Totally worth it. Heat also leaves straight up and away from the motherboard instead of heat travelling along side the motherboard where some devices might contribute to the heating of another.
WHat case do u use?
@@freelancer1499 ThermalTake cube. I don't know the exact model but they have a bunch. In black and white.
@@watchingdanny Thanks!
Originally PCs were all built like this, but the "desktop" form factor refused to go beyond a certain size since ATX boards were all that was available. Today, though, a small micro-ATX case can almost be used as a monitor stand. The model mentioned is the Thermatake V21. But a more traditional case on its side will also work, especially if it is like the SAMA IM01 which has the sides as a mesh as well. The Silverstone GD09B is a more expensive option. But any small case with a glass side can be put horizontal and used as a monitor or speaker stand. Some even allow you to simply remove the glass and install a screen (nice DIY project)
i still use my Rv01 silverstone tower case, it holds the gpu vertically and has a brace for the gpu included.
It all depends on the geometry behind the tab. As you see the Asus card has a more circular design whereas the gigabyte card has a more squared off design. The circular design distributes the load evenly. The squared off design however, that creates stress points on the corners. That can be proved by the fact that that's exactly where the crack starts at the inside corners of the pcb behind that tab
That make me relieved. I have the Asus rog strix 3090 oc. It doesn't have the power chips burning out issue thanks to using good power design, so it won't burn out from games. And now this with the circular tabs. What a relief...
@@MyAmazingUsername lol as a poor guy i couldn't sleep if I somehow had gigabyte version and worry about it cracking.
It's funny how the larger size of the card gives you confidence in it's construction and yet it just makes it break more easily.
People should throw that fallacy logic that bigger = better, or similar.
I remember the early days of GPUs with great fondness. When mid-range cards where affordable to middle-class families, and cards were about as big and heavy as today's larger NICs :)
@@AlfaPro1337 The bigger the card, the more cooling it's able to provide. It's not difficult to understand.
@@ThisIsMeArnold There are AIO cards, which are smaller and it's provide even better cooling.
See, fallacy logic.
We aren't even talking about cooling solution, this is about build quality.
@@AlfaPro1337 So you're just going to deflect and make the conversation about something completely different, some exception?
The Gigabyte card owners should use a raiser to prevent this to happen.
From my experience back in the early 2000's most PCBs were fiberglass. I'm sure modern boards are still 80%+ resin, so the issue likely falls to the the resin mixture itself, or the tensioner material wheather it is glass filiment or anything else.
My Gigabyte 4080 came with a support bracket which had an L-shaped piece which attached to the motherboard holes (via standoffs that replaced the screws) and a part that attaches to the end of the GPU which then screws into the L-brace. Rock solid.
Prior to that, I'd used Jay's tip to shim the backplate of my ASUS 3070 Ti to stop that flex in addition to using the GPU prop rod that came with my ASUS mobo.
I dont get why ppl wont use anything to prevent their gpus from sagging
@@jacobartzavia6096 Because most people assume that they shouldn't have to. Which certainly isn't unfair.
Confirming my gigabyte 4080 came with the same bracket, and is rock solid with it installed correctly.
And yes, I don't think it's unfair for people to assume they shouldn't have to use one, but by the same token, if it's in the box, why wouldn't you? 😅
So, to me, this tells me they knew it was an issue on the previous gen, so they included this bracket to help deal with it...unless they included a similar bracket in the 30 series? Even then, they really need to be explicit that you need to install the bracket to minimize the risk of it cracking.
@@RyTrapp0 I dunno man. Just seeing that being uneven drives me nuts. To me it's like getting into a boat that's tilting one way and getting mad it sunk
the biggest thing you missed is between that gigabyte card and the asus card, is the asus card has an upright right beside the locking piece that allows a screw to hold it nice and snug, where as the gigabyte card doesnt. that alone will increase structural integrity out the wazoo
Totally agree
I have a 3060 ti and it doesnt sag from what i see and i have the z490-H gaming motherboard so the clips to hold it in seem pretty solid. So i wonder if itll sag over time but as of now it seems pretty stable and i jiggled it a little bit to see if it moved any and it doesnt
Keeping my fingers crossed for my unicorn EVGA RTX 3080TI as many times as I've had to re-seat the card. Had a bad one right out of the box and got a replacement but so far so good now.
At this point what is there left? MSI and Zotac? Losing EVGA was really a loss for everyone.
MSI GPU are overpriced and Ventus are one dumpster fire GPU. Zotac is probably the only good manufacture left now.
As long as EVGA made GPUs, I wouldn't buy any other brand. We can only hope they will change their minds and get back in the business.
Has there been anything negative about Gainward/Palit yet?
@@IAMNOTRANA really? I thought MSI was alright on tbe GPU space. My go to as always EVGa and ASUS second wihr the ROG brand. Now with the whole ASUS fiasco it’s going to be interesting who takes the spotlight
At least PNY is an American company, so their customer support might be better.
If you look at the tab on the Gigabyte card there's clearly a weird part of the PCB just above and to the right of the tab that is cut out in a big rectangle shape. I pretty much believe this is another area where the problems in flexing/cracking can occur, there's a lot less PCB surrounding that tab than on the 40 series card. It's clear to see at 6:54
Interesting catch. There is no such cut on my AORUS 6750XT, for example.
But it is 4090 sample, and we need to look at these 3080 cards
@@DimkaTsv don't say 3080 😂😂
My EVGA 3080 has been perfect lol
Hey @Jayztwocents, most PCB are made from FR4 (8:57). In case you were wondering FR4 is a flame retardant material made from epoxy and woven glass fibers.
I have a Gigabyte RTX 3080 Vision OC at home. I have it mounted horizontal, and installed a Cooler Master RGB GPU support bracket because I was concerned about mechanical stress on the PCB. I'll update this comment later today with feedback on whether I see signs of cracking.
Update: My Gigabyte RTX 3080 Vision OC (approx. 1.5 years old) doesn't show any signs of cracking. Prior to installing the GPU support bracket there was a surprising amount of sag on GPU. The main reason I bought the support was because it seemed like there was a significant amount of stress on the PCB. My guess is the cracking is purely mechanical as alluded to in the video, and thermal fatigue/expansion plays little to no role since mine shows no signs of the issue, and has been supported the majority of the time.
If you have the bracket actually holding it up its going to be fine. When I uninstall my gpus I lay the computer flat, use a screw drive to depress the locking tab (big man hands) and pull straight up. No cracks so far on several large cards.
@@WavveBoi I do the same, for the same reason, big man hands...
@WavveBoi I figured my card would be a good indicator if the problem was mechanical, or a problem with thermal fatigue/expansion.
@@davidcsokasy5451 I don't think FR4 suffers from alot of heat stress. Like it might take decades for that material weaken sufficiently. I could definitely be wrong though. This seems like an issue of big heavy cards with not enough support on a section of PCB. With some cost cutting thrown in.
I've been hearing alot of long term quality issues with Nvidia cards and I'm wondering if I should trade my 3090 for a 7900xtx.
@@bags4649 I got the long L shaped screw driver with a noctua cooler and I've been using it for years. It's my favorite PC screwdriver.
I feel like the issue is actually where the backplate is attached to the PCB. You can see on the Gigabyte model that the screw for the backplate that would be closest to where it's breaking is very recessed by comparison. This is letting more of the PCB move/flex than the ASUS card, and too much of that will cause the crack.
Jay, this possibly occurs when one removes the power cable from the card while it is installed in the pci-e slot on the mainboard. One needs to brace the rear of the card with opposing force when removing the power cable.
@@garetht677 blame nvidia for making powerhungry and hot cards that can only be cooled by a solution almost the size of a midtower case.