The Presbyterian Church in America 'Canceled' David French
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- David was recently disinvited from a Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) panel about “how to be supportive of your pastor and church leaders in a polarized political year” after the denomination received backlash for his presence on the panel. He joins Jonah to explain his side of the story.
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#Church #religion #cancel #politics #conservative
I’m not in the PCA, but I did observe first-hand the reaction from people in the PCA and other churches of similar theology to the announcement that he was scheduled to speak at the GA. It had nothing to do with his daughter or his criticism of Trump, and everything to do with the fact that his more recent writings have suggested a theological drift away from the Westminster standards.
thank you
That doesn't seem very plausible as the reason he was cancelled. But can you give an example or two of his supposed "drift"?
@@KingoftheJuice18 he’s most recently said that he thinks same-sex marriages should remain legal, which is really out of line with what WCF chapters 23 and 24 say about the role of civil government and about marriage.
@@Metal_Auditor Thanks for your reply. When I read those chapters of the WCF, it seems to me that almost all American members of the PCA would likely be in violation of the doctrine found in chapter 23 which states that magistrates of civil government must insure "that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed." This doctrine is in direct and manifest contradiction to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, such that all those who affirm the binding character of the Constitution have drifted far from chapter 23. In other words, singling out French for not being in perfect alignment with the WCF-if this is in fact true-is arbitrary and probably motivated by other factors. Your thoughts?
@@KingoftheJuice18 the PCA, and most modern Presbyterian denominations, have followed the 1788 American edition which edited the chapter to be favorable toward religious liberty. You can find it on the PCA’s website.
I believe that in the interest of clarity, the thumbnail should not read “My Church Canceled me”. It assumes that French is currently a member of a PCA church. In fact, it sounds like French canceled the ENTIRE denomination because of the political leanings of SOME PCA church members.
Our church has courts. If you had people in the church being overtly racist towards your family why did you not resolve it through church discipline?
It seems to me that more liberal Christians and more conservative Christians can't both be Christians. How can they be the same religion?
Ha HA There are more versions of Christians than you can imagine. I am a Christian and I doubt there is one other Christian who believes just what I do. You sound interested. Should explore it a bit.
I attend an Eastern Orthodox parish which is theologically very conservative (though that conservatism would be quite different from a PCA). But the members are quite socially & politically diverse. The Church’s moral norms are clear. How those are received and lived out by individuals is, unless it becomes a case of public scandal, between them, their confessor & God. The Holy Spirit guides us into personal virtue, not worldly patterns of thought & party - though all things in life eventually come under the Lordship of Christ through repentance. But that will make one look increasingly like Christ & His saints, not political & social figures.
To say that he is aligned to the church's creeds and confessions (7:26) is such a lie. It is sad when you see someone lying with a straight face like him. He could have said it was the whole point of the topic to learn to pastor Jesus's flock in a polarized world, but he preferred to lie. He was "canceled" because he defends positions that the church's "creeds and confessions" are opposed to.
I expected objectivity.
For the person who sincerely attempts to think through a matter, I frankly found this very disappointing.
Jonah, didn't you think David French opened himself up several times to at least where you should have asked for clarifications?
You didn't find French sweeping with a very wide brush at times which is very simplistic and problematic?
David French was quite disappointing, because, shouldn't he know better that wide-sweeping generalizations are most often inaccurate and most damaging?
Very disappointing.
Each denomination has its own struggles, and even cradle Episcopalians like me sometimes roll our eyes about it, but it is a truth that the American Episcopal church is doctrinally tolerant, to a fault. We struggle, but we don't turn any one away from the altar. I love my home church and I can only imagine how hurt you are. I have a precious miracle 2 year old granddaughter (I expect your child is no longer 2), a similar medical diagnosis to Nancy's, and a subscription to The Dispatch I got because of you. (And cancelled my NYT subscription at about the same time. I did not appreciate that irony.) I recommend Rachel Held Evans' book, Searching for Sunday as timeless and to the point.
As to the ugliness and racism on the right, I always think of the seminar I took as a grad student at Penn. As a conservative, I was pretty much alone politically at the Graduate School of Education. As one might imagine, I got into a lot of debates with my liberal fellow students. One day, a fellow student said to me "you come by your beliefs honestly and in good faith through academic study, a lot of other Republicans come from uglier places to their views." I dismissed it at the time as left wing garbage. It took seeing how people responded to Trump coming into the picture to realize how right he was.
What racism? Give specific examples.
@@move_i_got_this5659 Uh, maybe start with so-called "Christians" referring to David's daughter by the n-word.
@@Beerman111980
What else?
Some stranger calling someone a name is not even worth mentioning, it's not even against the law.
The open border is a humanitarian crisis that has killed over 100k additional American, that's injustice.
What have you said about that?
Until you advocate for outlawing having children because some of those children will grow up and commit crime we all know it isnt actually crime or whatever other excuse you care about. @@move_i_got_this5659
@@move_i_got_this5659that’s cope, you said “give an example” then when you get it…then you move the goalposts… go look up the lost cause myth and explain to me why so many southern evangelical Christians adhere to the racist “lost cause myth”?
When I grew up in a fundamentalist church, that was apolitical. The slogan was speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent. I had no idea what politics the members of my church had. Unfortunately, the church later split when John Birchers tried to take over.
The reasoning behind the apolitical stance was that politics is inherently morally compromised. Politics is concerned with the ends and religion is concerned with the means. To appeal to a majority, unethical people and morally compromised positions need to be embraced. For example, the republicans in 1860 had to appeal to former know-nothings and some white supremacists (people who opposed slavery but wanted to expel blacks from the US).
I am glad you were able to find a good church that has decent values. I am sorry for the persecution of you and your family.
Religion and politics are apples and oranges. Politics is about settling disputes about public laws and policies and administering the results of the compromises with as much justice as can be obtained. Religion is about spiritual truth that transcends anything politics can or should do anything about.
It's the reason why church and state have tended to be separated institutionally in the history of Christendom.
I have been a member of three churches over the past 43 years, all PCA. No church is perfect because no person is perfect and people make up the church. But, I have never heard or seen anything that validates the mudslinging from David French (and seemingly endorsed by the host) in this discussion. I came to The Dispatch for news and valuable information. What I am hearing is slander, distortion and no objectivity. I am sure there are two sides to this story. A fair and honest report would present both!
You are wrong. What you are asking for is the fallacy of both-sidesism, and it is often inappropriate for communicating the truth.
You saying you have never seen any racism in the PCA is another side of the story. French gets to tell his. We can decide which of you we find more credible, barring any more firm evidence. (Though he seems to have taken many verifiable actions based on his story.)
I would think that if you were a member of the PCA, and honest, you would definitely consider a report of racism in the church to be "news and valuable information." Instead you discount it (without evidence) because you don't want to hear negative information.
I used to like David French. I also don't like Donald Trump. I got off the French connection when he made ever one who decided to vote for Trump into a bad no good Christian. Just be gracious man! This is why I can't and never will subscribe to the Dispatch although I do think they produce some good work
Honestly, French sees anyone who disagrees with him as Maga... I'm indifferent towards politics... but French is not a man of character who deserves a platform... he's a contrarian for the sake of contrarian stances that the world find palpable.... I mean look at this guy? He cares more about himself, he can't get over himself and his ministry... As a dude in ministry... any Pastor finds everything against him... read Exodus and Moses... Childish leadership at the end of the day...
The PCA is taking the right steps to ensure that they do not go down the same path as the UMC and other Mainline denominations. It starts small, with "nice guys" like French picking at the foundations with seemingly small issues, but the overall result is ordaining homosexuals and denying the veracity of Scripture.
This is the saddest thing that I've watched in awhile. I can't believe the American church has come to this.
Church Pastors and Ministers are very very human. Courageousness is very often the first victim in their character decline. To go into the various reasons why that's so would take hours. Enough to say they have both all the same desires and all the same fears everyone else has. Contrary to the beliefs of some they are not saints. They are someone doing a job they were hired to do that they get payed for doing. They have bosses and those bosses aren't up above. They have to please the bosses if they want to keep their job and continue to get payed. It really isn't hard to understand. You just need to to take the blinders off and get honest with yourself. Integrity is one of the first victims of fear and selfishness. This video sounds like disillusionment occured because of a failure of The PCA to rise above the human nature toward fear and allowing it to cause them to do the wrong thing instead of the right thing. Which is what those same spiritual leaders tell the pew sitters they are to do when faced with such a challenge, but they don't do it themselves. They hide statements like " we made a mistake. We didn't realize. We need to maintain unity. " It's all very predictable if you've stopped kidding yourself about who these people really are. I stopped kidding myself a long time ago. I'll never associate with an Evangelical Church ever again. Evangelical Church is a very large umbrella. I included all of them.
David didn't bend the knee in front of The Mad King how dare you.
Damn dude, PCA people in the comments here are not giving their denomination a good look.
Sorry to hear what occurred at your church and with the event you were invited to attend. Personally, I have always wondered how "Never Trump" fit into a biblical person's worldview, considering how the phrase suggests that the person in question is irredeemable. Thank you for the work each of you do and the time you took to put this content together.
Here is a thought. Most "never Trump" people are not saying that should Trump repent in ways that are believable, they would still oppose him. Forgiveness of offenses does not exclude taking their past behavior into account as they move forward, just a victim of abuse may not be able to trust their former abuser and probably should not trust them. I am in that camp. I take his pronouncements seriously as well as his past behavior. I can't ever imagine voting for him but that is a judgement call.
I don't think that anyone is "irredeemable," nor does Never Trump imply any such thing. It simply means that we won't vote for a man who has shown time and time again that he is utterly unfit for any public office. If Trump were to demonstrably, provably, completely change his ways (at the age of 78), perhaps one could reconsider. I'm not holding my breath.
"Irredeemable"? He's running for President, not to stay out of Hell. There are plenty of people in this country who have sinned and who deserve our mercy, that doesn't mean they're qualified to be President. And keep in mind, Trump hasn't shown an OUNCE of remorse for anything he's done, and that's when he's even admitted to doing them. The first step towards redemption is admitting fault. I think a much better question is how a biblical person's worldview squares with SUPPORTING Trump for President, given his profoundly unrepentant immoral behavior.
@@terrycast Suggesting "never" someone means that they can never achieve the fitness required for office. They can't correct, improve, or change (which is what irredeemable means). You say so when you suggest that he must "demonstrably, provably, [and] completely change his ways" for you to reconsider. I know, it's a tough mirror to look into. Hopefully, David will give it a try.
@@richarddean3154 It is one thing to repent and change course, to be redeemed in the eyes of God and one’s community. It does not follow that you reinstate such a person into public office or other position of power. French has demonstrated enough Christian character to convince me he would embrace and support a repentant Trump…not as a candidate for a powerful position, but as a fellow Christian.
Did not know the Presbys swallowed the Trump Kool-aid.
So sad.
Those in the PCA, yes. Those in the Presbyterian Church USA, no.
My parents are in the cult. It’s sad.
@@thenewunderground8692PCUSA definitely swallowed a kool-aid.
@@traceyedson9652 not the kind that results in shunning people from congregations because of mindless devotion to a bronzer painted lunatic.
Appreciation for Jonah's "If you had told someone back in...." It's one the best academic and historical exercises for contrafactualism, if you believe in the value of contrafactualism. This contrafactual statement reminds us how quickly things change and how little we can predict what's in front of us and how people, including ourselves, will react.
I just have so much respect and love for David and Nancy French. They have been so principled and courageous through all of this.
Who knew that Trump could take away the joy of adopting a child from Africa?
Indicative of a satanic maga cult movement within the church. Trump is one of Satan's most useful minions although probably at a lower level than Putin and Xi.
He should have never been invited to speak. He was not a PCA member, nor attending a PCA church at the time. He left the PCA long before this. Perhaps folks should do more balanced research before drawing (erroneous) conclusions.
When The Dispatch started they promoted themselves as honest, unbiased news and fair, thoughtful commentary, and now it's a platform for David French's one side attack on his old church.
First of all, that's the church's fault. Secondly, THAT is your takeaway from this? Not that there is a real problem with racism in the PCA? It's ?!
Why are pca members so hateful?
@@arthurswanson3285selection bias
@@arthurswanson3285probably the same reason humans in every other group are.
Look up Russian black icon Jesus
I see a lot of United Riech folks on here
Views to comment ratio
I'm sorry, but David French seems like he enjoys whining and troublemaking. He shouldn't have been invited to that particular panel. They made a course correction, end of story.
BS
My question to Mr. French would be this: there are plenty of Liberal and Progressive Christian denominations, even leftist Presbyterian Churches to choose from. They all conform to your political ideology. Why not join one of them? Why stick with a conservative church that does not align with your secular political views? You're like someone who goes to a SSPX Church but hates the Latin mass. It's crazy. You're a leftist. That was exposed many years ago. Whether you came to those views over time or always held them and worked among conservative circles for whatever reason, people know who you are now. Go worship with people like you who will accept you for who you are. Trust me, you will be a lot happier than keeping up this facade. And if somehow you really don't understand that you are a leftist, the I pray that God will help you go through some self-analysis to realize who you are; again, you and your family will be a lot happier.
French is a traditional, center right conservative. Trumpism is not GOP but extreme right, some borderline fascist and dominionist.
I can't tell if you are uninformed or dishonest. David French has been a staunch conservative for decades. He was invited to speak by the PCA and accepted, as a favor, knowing he would be controversial.
Also, the is an immoral position in the 21st Century.
@@ka9fonTrumpism isn’t very “right.” And authoritarianism isn’t “right,” either. One of the difficulties with MAGA is that it’s not politically centered (I don’t mean Center, I mean it’s new & hasn’t gained equilibrium & gravitas.) MAGA drew fro all over the spectrum, so to make it politically located is mis-applied. This is why it took establishment GOP either a long time to tolerate or it hasn’t done so. A mere wave of the hand that it’s This or That won’t add anything to the needed critique. It only seems to prove that the elite & establishment want it to just go away. If you want to add a voice of reason, you’ll need to do the work.
French - typical disingenuous lawyer.
You got canceled. That’s all. Why are you whining? Victim?
I’ve never seen any group more whiny than conservative, white, male boomers.
AWESOME!! Cancelled this fake conservative and deservedly so, I might add. Keep your Leftist politics out of the church, champ.
Trump doesn't have good theology but he's actually doing some good works, you're not.
Trump is standing up to injustices all over the world, you're not.
In fact many of you say to stay out of politics....it is sin to say that and it's a sin to not get involved in politics, and it's a sin to vote Democrat or anything other than Trump this year.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Just to clarify what you’re stating: is it sin to vote for anyone other than an individual who is liable for such good works as rape in the amount of $93 million, fraud in the amount of $455 million, and unrelated fraud in the amount of 34 felonies?
The Bible does not say that it is a sin to stay out of politics. So what are you using to decide what actions are sins?
Satan is strong in you
@@jkennethkeithYou just posted your sins and injustices.
That alone is bad but it’s nothing compared to the blood that is on your hands.
Over 100k additional deaths from the open border.
STD deaths from sex revolution.
Abortion.
Drug overdoses and all the gangster crimes associated with that lifestyle.
What good works are you doing?
None.
What is the definition of lukewarm Christian?
What Jesus mean by “wicked lazy servant”?