Another Denomination Might Break Up
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- The “Olympia Overture” POL-01 threatens to split the Presbyterian Church (USA) again. Let’s learn the facts about this upcoming decision.
Chapters:
00:00 Mainline Church Similarities
02:30 Mainline Church Difference: Polity
04:23 Mainline Church Liberalism
07:53 POL-01: A Proposal to Change the PC(USA) Book of Order
12:03 Fellowship Community response to POL-01
15:23 Letter of Dissent and Reponses
17:30 Church Polity and Other Denominations Following PC(USA)
Support Ready to Harvest: Visit readytoharvest.com
Modernist theology has the same modus operandi every time: it begs for a seat at the table, then it argues to be at the head of the table, then it demands that everybody else leaves the table.
It’s Narcissistic Personality Disorder meets religion.
And, the people that leave wise up and don't allow it inside, until younger generations refuse to listen. Rinse and repeat.
The fact that they didn't have a seat at the table to start just shows that the other side has been playing that exact same game for far longer.
@@20quidI mean being modernist suggest it didn't exist before. The point of modern theology is novelty be it materialistic or fad theology. The fact they pushed out and infiltrated these denominations suggests the opposite of what you claim. If an institution isn't exclusive in it's morality it functionally has no morality let alone theology.
That's the Neo-Marxist way.
"This isn't about belief, you can believe what you want". This statement is a cause for pause and deep thought.
Don't think too deep. It's quite simple.
I thought about it and have been attending a Unity Spiritual Center because that is in their statement of faith "believe what you want", been looking for a different church and it won't be Presbyterian if they believe that too.
@@ninjason57 "Don't think too deep" -A great tagline for progressive churches.
It's like they want reality to bend to their will. Is that how it ought to work, though?
I guess if you have enough money and detachment from reality, no question of "why not?" is inconceivable.
I now understand how radical the Gospel of Christ is. Either you believe it all, or you reject it all. The PUSA rejected it all and is for some ungodly reason happy about it.
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3 (NIV).
You know there are sound biblical arguments over the topic of gay marriage, abortion, and any other hotly contested topic. I'm not saying that this doctrinal change wasn't spurred by modern opinions but at least hear the biblical arguments out.
@skibidibap4411 Biblical arguments in support of those topics? Sounds heretical.
@@skibidibap4411 Biblical arguments in favor of those topics? Sounds un-Christian
@@asadburden1621 your an idiot if you think a biblical arguments for anything is by its own virtue un-christian. It's a Christians virtue to read the Bible and come to a conclusion based on the facts, it's literally some peoples job. Just because someone reads the Bible and comes to a conclusion that goes against what YOU believe doesn't mean they're not a Christian.
@@skibidibap4411 False, you are spreading lies and misinformation. There is not a single verse in the entire scripture that allows either gay marriage or abortion and anyone who claims otherwise should not poses the franchise.
“It’s not an intellectual problem. People just don’t want to stop sinning.” J. Vernon McGee
McGee was a great, plain-spoken minister of God. I sure do miss him.
Just like the Garden, we want to be GODS!
Fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM!
There are also "intellectual" problems at work.
They love sin , because they think it is a minor evil , & glamorous .
This is what happens when the church's "conscience" is aligned to the world rather than to God.
Amen.
This is what happens when you break away from Christ’s Catholic Church
@@phylocybe_ as if the Roman Catholic Church hasn't had the same issues. Take the beam out of your eye.....
@@ninjason57 there is one Catholic Church that Christ started and many Protestant churches that refuse to obey Christ. That’s a fact.
@@phylocybe_ Your facts are filled with lies. A person doesn't have to submit to the Roman tradition to obey Christ. "When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest".
10:14 “… that slope is pretty slippery.”
That’s a cliff, not a slope.
Indeed - that is pretty much a Jude and 2 Tim 3:3-5 embodiment there
good lmao
Turns out Unitarian Universalists were just ahead of the curve.
Haha yeah, all Protestants will become Unitarian Universalists. It’s only a matter of time:
The inherent worth and dignity of all persons. That's the uu.
True, they were the first to reject Christ. Even beat the Congregationalists to that "standard."
@@wendyleeconnelly2939 What are you worthy of and what dignity do you have according to scripture? Not that you let scripture dictate what you believe, because you would not be "uu" if you did.
In so many ways
Mainline churches are basically "why bother?" churches. When your church has no distinct theology, is blatently unbiblical in its teaching and is more focused on promoting the latest social justice cause being pushed by the corporate media instead of traditional Christian values, people say, why bother going to church when none of it matters anyway?
And they're reaping the rewards.
This is a very silly comment
Bet you'd like to go back to the good old days where the women and Blacks knew their place.
@@ericsevareid5072 truth hurts, right jew?
I ask myself why did Jesus go to all the trouble of dying on the cross and rising again if it was just to tell us “if it feels good do it”. Mmmm.
"...when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” Luke 18.8
He will. These situations just clarify who are the sheep and goats, the wheat from the tares.
Actually, it's opposite of that!
Faith is the belief in things not seen!
We need faith to be able to accept God and to follow his commandments that we may be humble and teachable that our faith will grow because of the blessings that are showered down on us.
When we look on the face of God, either when he comes or he shows himself to us in mortality, then we will no longer need faith because we will know for a fact!😊
nope we told God in the 60's that we didn't need him! We are paying the price now.
Gonna be a WHOLE lotta HOT people that day
No. Because he's not coming back
The comments from the PCUSA's affirming committee in response to the conservative group sound an awful like the folks who scoffed at conservatives who suggested that legalizing gay marriage would lead to florists and cake decorators being sued for refusing to work a gay wedding. We know how that turned out.
They know exactly what they're doing.
Ah yes, the cake wars. It reminded me an awful lot about how segregationists refused to serve black people in public accommodations due to their "sincerely-held religious beliefs". We know how that turned out.
@@andyiswonderfulyou sound dumb 😂
@@andyiswonderful
If someone comissions art from you of a particular 1930's socialist in heroic fashion would you accept and provide it?
The cake bakers offered them other cakes or to do other designs, but did not do a design that was specifically intended to offend them. it would be like going to a jewish Deli and demanding Bacon, then suing them when they refuse.
who predicted that?
I always enjoy your videos and your presentation. It's straight forward and to the point without condemnation. Simply factual. Thank you.
Thank you, Dennis.
@@ReadyToHarvest well that's Richie Cunningham reading it from the teleprompter just like a parrot 🤣🤣🤣
Fun Fact: the “mainline” in mainline Protestantism refers to the “Main Line” of infrastructure improvements built to connect Philadelphia to the new capital in Harrisburg. Chief among these was the Pennsylvania Railroad mainline. Wealthy residents (read: Protestants) of Philadelphia quickly established suburbs along the mainline, building protestant churches as they went. These were therefore the “mainline churches”, and the area is still referred to as the mainline. These mainline churches were distinguished from the lower class protestant churches (and Catholic Churches) of the city. Thus the wealthy denominations can to be called the mainline churches or mainline denominations. This wealthy suburbanizing trend occurred in every major city as the railroad mainlines were built, so the term gain common purchase across the country. And that’s how we got the mainline in mainline Protestant.
tldr
Mainline actually means bougie Christian
Thank you for this wonderful information!
I lived near Philadelphia 20 years ago, and heard the same. Thanks for the explanation.
Thanks!
Wayne, pa in the house
Between these guys and the Church of Scotland, I feel really bad for Presbyterians.
(I say this as a Catholic, in case you were wondering)
@@intergalactichumanempire9759 not all bad, we have good faithful denominations. They are smaller, but a small church with true believers is better then a large one with heretics
Don’t. Sorting the wheat from the chaff theologically has been going on for a long time. I’m a PCA member we left the PCUSA in the early ‘70s. Churches are voluntary associations of people who believe the same thing. The Catholic Church has closed many parishes and lost many members. Same thing. And that’s not a criticism, I’m a great admirer but this is and has been going on for a long time in churches everywhere.
Speaking as a Presbyterian, don't feel too bad. We have a lot of Conservative evangelical Presbyterian churches in the UK. Including EPCEW and the IPC (the latter of which I can say as a laymember is growing). Yes it is sad to lose some of the old buildings to liberals selling them after dying out as a congregation, but pretty buildings are not the be all and end all.
@@thomasturton1118 My nephew just went through this with the Methodist church he was attending. The powers that be made a huge effort to win the vote and keep the churches in the UMC. So, they did that and the congregants left. Now they have a bunch of empty churches.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Yes, very fruity indeed.
"Where orthodoxy becomes optional, it will eventually be proscribed." -Rev. Al Kimmel
Considering how the Bible and Christ accepts and doesn’t explicitly condem slavery, among other moral issues, perhaps this is a good thing?
Which Orthdoxy becomes optional? There is a schism in Orthdoxy right now and so how does one know which Orthodox Church is the Church?
@@Mns_87You realize its mention of slavery is descriptive as opposed to prescriptive, right? Just because it is not actively fought does not mean it is endorsed.
@@dman7668cope
@@Mns_87 zero relevance to this, as slavery is not in the Holy Tradition. Defending slavery is not an Orthodox doctrine or practice.
"Nobody is being forced to..." Yeah they are. ALL people who wish to become Ministers of Word and Sacrament (ordained clergy) in the PC(USA) are examined as to their views and commitment to the Book of Order. Failure to agree to conduct one's ministry by the requirements of the Book of Order means a "NO" vote for approval to be ordained and to accept a call. If that's not forcing someone to comply, I don't know what is. I just retired after 28 years of ministry in the PC(USA); I know what I'm talking about. I invite comments seeking clarification on any of this.
Thank you for posting this. I was just about to enroll in a pre-sem college course that's a bachelor's and then off to seminary for either of the PCUSA & ELCA....I'm more shocked of what you mentioned and how quickly I'm leaving PCUSA
@@mcnielentertainment Here's the thing: The last time the issues came up, the decision was made to send ordination decisions back to the presbyteries who would do the ordaining. That actually fits PC(USA) polity as it has historically been. That's where it stands as of right now. I wouldn't make ANY decisions right now as to leaving a denom or etc. I don't think the Presbyteries are going to want to ratify any arm-twisting measures like this one seems to be. It might not even get approved at General Assembly! In the meantime, you'll still need your Bacherlor's and your Seminary degree. Go ahead! Remember, it's God who called you, not a denomination. You can sort that out later. Grace and peace to you, and prayers!
@@mcnielentertainmentcome join me in the ELCA, call committees love pastors with orthodox views, they’re in high demand. (I would know for reasons)
Wasn't the idea of Protestantism that the Bible should be the ultimate authority? When did they replace the Bible with Committees for authority?
It was just a means for Satan to spread lies
Yeah, given Calvin and Luther, no that wasn't the whole point of Protestantism.
1946 when the word homosexuality was added to the Bible through mistranslation.
From its beginning Protestantism has claimed “Sola Scriptura”. The problem is no one could agree how to interpret the Bible , Luther disagreed with Zwingli who disagreed with Calvin etc etc .. “Sola Scriptura” is a self defeating argument because no 2 people can agree on what exactly “ the Bible” means. Luther , Calvin etc believed it was Secular Christian Leaders who had to decide what was right … which is why in all Protestant countries the Head of the State and the Head of the Church were the King/Queen … by its nature Protestants will fracture because there is no fixed set of interpretation… if each person “ Believes in the Bible” there will be as many denominations as there are people!
@@Lando_P1 And how exactly is that a problem? What is the correct translation?
I didn’t leave the church, the church left me.
Redeemed Zoomer bros.. not like this… not like this…
Meanwhile Mormons are now singing "Come Thou Fount". Things are getting weird bros...
@@scottanno8861what's so special about come thou fount?
It’s so joever
@@christophekeating21It's a hymn that they used to avoid because it emphasized salvation by Grace alone. Mormons used to prefer the doctrine of "Faith without Works is Dead" more or less. The hymn is not too different from "Amazing Grace" which is still not sung by them...yet 😅
What are all the references to zoomer about
It always seem to start out as a request by change agents for tolerance then progresses to intolerance to those who earlier agreed to be tolerant to the change agents.
Hegelian dialectics at work.
The same situation happened to the RLDS church, as the leaders have, quite successfully, created a new denomination and organization. This process takes deliberate deceit and gaslighting against faithful members and friends.
"When I am weaker than you I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles"- Frank Herbert
It goes from tolerance to full on totalitarianism unfortunately.
We will not back down. We will restore true teaching in the PCUSA no matter what it takes!
That is prideful hyperbole. You will not take "whatever" actions are necessary. You do not have the courage for true extremism.
What it will take is a return to Rome. There is no alternative. Repent from your scismatic prideful heresies.
I mean good luck with that. Us evangelicals will be sitting over here. Waiting for all the mainline churches to go Tango Uniform and then we can buy their buildings and establish real churches in them again.
@@FlyingGospela return to Rome? That’s jumping from a ship that’s sunk to a ship that’s sinking. Francis and co are playing the progressives’ long game and it’s plain to all of us who don’t have some emotional reason to deny it.
lol ok boomer
I remember how God describes certain Luke warm churches and says that he basically vomits them out. Well, I can see the main line denominations fitting that description.
The PCUSA is not even lukewarm anymore they are openly accepting that they are apostates.
I think lukewarm is quite charitable. Sardis is more like it.
The scriptures are totally clear on homosexuality. It is not a subject of interpretation.
Yeah. Totally clear that all people are your neighbor, and you should love them as yourself.
Read 2 Samuel 1:26 😮
@@mikeymullins5305 The HIGHEST law is to love and serve GOD; THEN love thy neighbor. We DO love them, that's why we call them to repentance. For without repentance, NONE can be saved in the Kingdom of God.
@@jmdsservantofgod8405what point are you making?
@@kelaarintruth!
As denominations chase after secular morality they become what Paul describes in 2 Timothy 3:1-9. Outwardly they look to be followers of Christ, but inwardly they're as corrupt and craven as the unsaved, and they celebrate it, rather than seeking freedom from sin. They have the truth that Christ died for our sins, but they focus on talking about Christ coming to teach us about love, and they distort His teachings to focus on tolerance and acceptance, instead of repentance.
God is sorting those who want truth and those who don't.
Amen
My faith has been recently reawakened within the past 6 months, but my understanding is that we are called to repentance and to deny the self, not to indulge the self. What makes pornography an indulgence of the self, and homosexuality not? This needs to be a serious discussion.
They're not simply indulgences of the self, either, and that's not the determining factor of what is right and wrong
The discussion should be over whether homosexuality is an intrinsic identity and not merely a fetish. When people treat it as an identity, something unchanging and at the foundation of their being, then it becomes harder to argue what makes it inherently wrong.
I am a gay Catholic. It is part of my identity. But I also understand how it is a sin. In the same manner as infidelity or masturbation or porn. Is it a mortal sin? Certainly not. But it doesn't lead to the holy institution of family, either. And that's what makes it wrong, not the orientation of my pleasure, which is irrelevant to the question.
@txquartz I'm curious how do you deal with your feelings?
I'm surrounded by LGBTQIA friends and family so it's kinda hard to get the message across...
Would appreciate your help!
Thx
You will not find liberal Christians who agree with your premise. They believe and teach that love is indulgent, not disciplined. Everything else they believe and do follows logically. (It is, of course, all sin; your understanding is correct.)
Not surprising when the culture influences the church instead of the other way around.
Thank you for the discussion and sources of information. Blessings.
Thank you, Don!
Shocker, the people who subscribe to their own interpretation of the scriptures are suddenly trying to purge the ones who actually agree with tradition...funny how this always ends the same way.
@@hya2in8how? I've read it and i'm not finding the correlation...
an inevitable consequence of the reformation
redeemed zoomer gonna feel the burn
Fully expecting him to make a video about this at some point. He has said in the past that he's a fan of RTH and has recommended this channel to those wanting an unbiased look at denominations.
I wonder how much of this is a reaction to his Reconquista?
@@joshuakarr-BibleMan none of it. No one knows who he is outside of a small internet niche.
@@joshuakarr-BibleMan I doubt it. He's doing good things but it's also worth pointing out that, while he does have a pretty significant following for a religious CZcamsr, he's just one guy on the Internet and his following is also split between both mainline churchgoers, evangelicals, and also probably non-religious but Christian-curious people as well.
The catholic church called.
they're suing for trademark infringement.
As usual, the information you put forward is accurate and balanced. Thank for sharing.
A fascinating, balanced, in-depth analysis. Thank you, Joshua, for your comprehensive research and "just the facts" reporting.
The church has become more and more conformed to the world rather to our Lord Jesus Christ. Judgment is around the corner.
When you “tolerate” heresy and heretics, they will eventually take over your congregation.
I attended a Presbyterian USA seminary and had the deep impression that all were welcome, as long as one affirmed the progressive views of the faculty. There was a blantent self-imposed ignorance and denial by the instructors that many Presbyterians disagreed with the teachings that were being promoted. Students who openly questioned or rejected certain perspectives were often criticized and excluded by their peers. There was a lot of backbiting because of this. I felt there was freedom of expression and thought, as long as you supported the leftist messages. There were classes where the lessons clearly contradicted scripture, but there was never an explanation as to why that was. You simply needed to regurgitate the ideals of the professors. Anyone who did not yeild to what was being said was labed as racist, provential, or patriarchal. There was simply a lack of TRUE dialogue and critical thinking. In the midst of this, the seminary, out of necessity, had to sell property to merely stay afloat. Many seminarians lost their housing as a result. There was distrust between the student body, faculty, and administration. Simply no transparency. . . It seemed the institution was keen to neglect the open and all together theology they claimed to uphold and advocate, all for the sake of the dollar. Professors, who so often claimed advocacy for the marginalized, were suddenly silent. I am sure this was out of security for their jobs and positions. In all, it was clear that this method could not sustain itself. This seems to be a trend throughout the wider Presbyterian denomination. I believe Matthew 7:24-27 offers clear insight into this situation. The Presbyterian church is not the only faith group to encounter these challenges. But time will tell as the wheat and chaff separate themselves. Prayers for the Presbyterians who are overlooked and forgotten in this sad development.
😢 . Yeah, sadly this is happening in many denominations across the board.
My Dad spent one year at Princeton Theological Seminary in the mid-50's. He left after that year specifically because they were doing almost everything you wrote about to promote their ungodly view of the Lord and his Word.
Maybe conservatives should no longer tolerate "free expression" if the end result is always conservatives getting pushed out. But conservatives are always on the defensive, remaining reactive instead of proactive
@@jeffking4176
Across the world in all aspects.
How do you dialog with heretics????
In 2016 I lived one block away from the manhattan Protestant riverside church. As a faithful catholic , I poked my head inside and walked around to see what riverside was offering, it was wall to wall Black Lives Matter posters and pride flags. No thanks
I'm also a Catholic, and yeah some (but not all) mainline protestant churches feel frighteningly similar to unitarianism at this point. But we shouldn't ignore the fact that this tendency is present in the Catholic church as well. It hasn't permeated the church to that point yet but we must remain vigilant and pray orthodoxy is maintained.
Riverside Church stopped being Presbyterian a long time ago. It’s only marginally Christian now and has become a social/community organization.
@@scotthinzman7698 I went to their website and it certainly looks like a satirical take on a radical leftist unChristian "church".
So basically borderline unitarian.
@@scotthinzman7698 i didn’t know it was previously Presbyterian. As a high church traditional Catholic derp in my faith and history with lots of research into all the permutations and manifestations of Protestant denominations, I agree with you. There was nothing inside or outside the church building that was Christian, Protestant or otherwise. In the world of spiritual warfare, the Christians have lost the battle of Riverside church and it has been occupied by pagan forces.
@@JaceyMitchell orthodoxy will clearly be maintained until our Lord’s second coming. The only question is why percentage of God’s children will remain faithful and be vigilantly awaiting His return. Catholics are obviously not immune to turning their backs on God.
Let me make sure I understand this. According to the pro-amendment camp, churches will still be able to call whomever they want...but, at minimum, all new pastors coming out of the seminaries will be required to hold to these heterodox beliefs? How naive do they think people are?
However much they think, they would be underestimating it.
Most people do not pay attention to things at this level, at all.
They aren't betting that the people are naive.
They're betting on the people not caring enough to do something about it.
And they know there is more that don't care than there are those that care
@savioblanc Oh certainly, I have no doubt that is their real strategy. However, for those who are at least somewhat paying attention it should be possible to see right through their answer.
There is no question in my mind. This is satanic.
Some churches need to consider.
Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandments of God, you hold the traditions of men.......
Mark 7:13 "Making the word of God of no effect through you tradition...
Acts 5:29 "Peter and the other apostles answered and said: We ought to obey God Rather than men."
Accepting someone does not mean supporting them not following God's teachings and example. You can love them but not agree with everything they do.
A loving parent disciplines their child. A loving friend warns their fellows. To see someone indulging in sin is like watching someone drink themselves to death and do nothing.
So sad. The amount of deceit that was required for these churches to end up where they are. Truth is necessary, Christ is necessary.
As a member of a disaffilliated United Methodist Church, I know what you're going through
Time to return to the apostolic Church and leave Satan's temple
@@DeathbytrollYou need to clarify this.
Same here. United Methodists are far from United and it will only get worse.
Step 1: "We DONT have the right to dismiss homosexuality from the Christian community"
Step 2: "We DO have the right to dismiss you from the Christian community for not affirming homosexuality"
The Order from God was to reproduce when you get married. Two men or two women can not do it.
Additionally is the Tradition of the Church. They never Married two men or two women,... then it can not be done.
Lol, as if the West (The child of Satan) has any authority in the Church.
We will dismiss the sodomites out of the Faith whether they like it or not!
The Bible very explicitly dismissed homosexuality from Christianity. Read: ROMANS, Chapter 1.
@@Patrick-sb2sb I think he knows that
@@Patrick-sb2sb
“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
- Romans 1:26-27
“For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
- 1 Timothy 1:10
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
- Jude 7
No the Holy Bible talks about homosexuality, not in a positive light. Nice try and defending homosexuality though.
10:40 Half of those committees are reason enough to leave the denomination.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Your balanced & fair reporting is appreciated.
Luther often spoke of "the Radicals". People split fellowship over a myriad of reasons, but I don't think even Luther could have conceived of how desperately wicked the American Christian landscape would get. Most are becoming antinomians these days. American Protestants are a mess in 2024.
Soon everyone will be their own "church".
I don't mean to sound arrogant or conceited, but I think the problem is people know more about Luther, Calvin, or contemporary authors and writers than they do of scripture.
Read Kings and Chronicles, Israel itself a nation explicitly founded by God and guided by God's very hand with his presence in their very temple did not go long before turning back to Idolatry.
David had the holy spirit and still comitted multiple sins two of which the only penalty for was death, no forgiveness offering proscribed in Leviticus.
If the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, I can only fathom that's because it will be taken out of the world before that happens.
@@kriegjaeger. The gates of hell won’t prevail against the Church that Jesus established, the Catholic Church. Sure it had/has issues and needed reform, but there should never have been splits. The American Church landscape shows why. For all of Pope Francis’s talk of being open, he cannot go against scripture, church teachings, or church dogma…so the Catholic Church can never fall into this heresy.
@@billmartin3561
The catholic church worships idols and prays to a pantheon. Maybe not officially but it undeniably has Maryism and tokens of saints people worship and direct prayers to.
Our worship is meant only for God.
@@kriegjaeger🙄
I really appreciate the neutral, informative approach in these videos.
If all these mainline churches keep formally rupturing over a number of the most fundamental questions of Faith & Morals that were once touted as being “basic fundamental Christian truths necessary for salvation,” I’d imagine a mainline protestant should pause to give serious discernment to the whole Protestant schema and framework. As I saw with the UCC and UMC ruptures, lots of protestants lamenting their mainline brethren “abandoning the Gospel truth” then not scrutinizing any further, as we see (once unified) mainline protestantism go through further balkanization. It’s getting to the point where mainline protestants are now embracing those basic heresies of Docetism/Arianism/Pelagianism/etc.
It's getting hard for me to call them "mainline" denominations when they are falling victim to fringe heresies that would never have been acceptable.
But if you think the papist faith is any better than I have a bridge to sell you. The current pope seems just as interested in these fringe ideas as these "mainline" churches. Catholics and these Protestants are more alike than unalike.
Wait a minute, that same pope said that there's too much faggotry,(in a negative light) i dont know if he's following those same churches. And lastly, he doesn't establish our faith, he's not infallible, he can be wrong
@@ethanduncan1646
@@ethanduncan1646it seems that my original comment was deleted by youtube, but even the catholic church says that the pope can be wrong and obviously, the pope will never be perfect, humans are not perfect, so maybe, he was wrong....or you are misinterpreting, and btw, that same pope used some strong words against homosexuals not long ago, so maybe he's not taking the liberal or mainline church route...
There will be a new group of 'mainline' denominations. It's already happening. I went to an ECO church last week in an old shopping mall. There were several hundred people at the 11 AM service and I bet almost as many at 9 AM, while the local PCUSA churches are closing down.
@@salvadorhenriquez4091I don't think pope Francis in particular to be bad but I feel like he needs to make his stance clear. His statements last year in same sex couples for example caused major discourse and disagreements among the other branches of the Catholic world especially the ones in Ukraine and Africa who feel like Rome is becoming too close to Western secular forces. There needs to a greater crackdown on corrupt members of the church and the secular forces trying to weasel their way into the Catholic church.
As someone who recently came back to the Catholic church since March. Seeing these denominations split makes me sad but at same time there really is nothing new under the sun.
Nice, Ecclesiastes
_For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you, and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you._
1 Corinthians 11:18-19 LSB
How is the catholic church doing in the north? Here in South America things are really crazy, I'm a Protestant but I have a lot of cousins that are catholics and they're fighting like crazy against liberation theology and socialist influence. I already knew about these divisions in the catholic church, but nowadays things are crazy, some catholics really hate the pope.
@@MattM.Silva01In the north there are some issues, but not nearly as much. In fact, there is a great traditional shift going on in the north that Pope Francis is trying to rail against. He can’t stop it though.
@@MattM.Silva01 That's been the case for nearly a century right? I had always heard Catholicism in South America was far more susceptible to socialist influence and quirky forms of syncretism
‘These people [a]draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
Nice reconquista you got there, bro.
Aren’t the schismatic groups universally smaller than their parent denomination? I don’t think a “reconquista” is realistic in any practical sense.
@@FriarJoe66 Often, but not necessarily on the aggregate. Honestly it doesn't even really matter. I'm referring to the fact that a rapidly-growing conservative PCUSA CZcamsr has been advocating for the retaking of mainline denominations through simply staying in and waiting it out on the premise that the more liberal churches and members are dying. He might be right and he might not be, but this clearly shows how fraught such an endeavor is without congregational church polity. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this current change in the PCUSA book of order arose in reaction to his channel.
This is how his fantasy ends, with a reaction from the embodiment of the very same traditionalism he larps. It really highlights why these conservatives jump ship for random evangelical denomination/schism #4306 or what have you and it is not like many who join groups like the GMC didn't consider the possibility of exactly this, even if you take a very cynical view of the people leading schismatic groups. I'm not saying jumping ship is correct, but perhaps your local elders and ministers weren't as ignorant as you in all your 25 years of wisdom or whatever assumed. I'm not a boomer, but the irony here is palpable.
It is unwise to "take back" a corrupt church. It is noble to try to lead them right, but you are powerless to do so and aren't immune from corruption yourself. More importantly, very few churchgoers go alone. In other words, they have families. If you would subject your loved ones to the ever-increasing theological nonsense, you are partially responsible should they stumble. Pray for these churches and judge them righteously, but don't fellowship with people who deny core aspects of Christianity for the delusional dream of taking back a building and the worldly institution the churches have become.
The catholic church called.
they're suing for trademark infringement!
Why mock and scoff at a Christian trying to return their church to biblical orthodoxy. Maybe they wont succeed, but at least they are trying to do something positive. Who do you think God will be happier with? The scoffer or the one who tries? Thank the Lord you weren't around in the 1st century. You would be looking at Paul with pity saying 'Just give up, bro'...
Lord, have mercy.
Welcome to the PCA! We’ve been expecting you.
Good thought, but not likely! I think biblically conservative people left a LONG time ago to join the PCA from the 1970's on. The churches that left last mostly went to ECO. That group wouldn't go to PCA, ARP, or OPC because they don't allow women pastors or elders, and there may be other differences. So I am thinking most that leave at this point would be going to ECO. We left over 30 years ago.
Im sorry for all Methodist and Presbyterian who are Bible believing and truly of Jesus and are born again believers. It is problem time to find a smaller Evangelical or Baptist or non denominational church. That seperate themselves from all this chaos. They are the true protestants that love scripture. Love Jesus and love people so much that they tell them Jesus died for them. Praying for you guyd
There are plenty of PCA, ARP, and EPC churches that haven't succumbed to this heresy.
@rlstowe3 I'm sorry you are correct there is a great PCA church not far from my church. I go to an Evangelical Free Church and my Pastor and thier Pastor get togther quite often
17:04
At risk of sounding like the stereotypical Catholic mocking stereotypical Protestants… what is the point of being in a church that says “you can believe what you want?”
EDIT: Just to be 110% clear, I’m calling out the official statement being quoted at that time stamp. This is not me just picking on Protestants in general.
Thats what Knights of Columbus meetings are for. ;)
Probably the same point of having an “infallible” pope that is always going against whatever the last guy said
When I heard that response to the dissents I thought the same thing.
I perceived it as “as long as you simply go through all the motions, you can believe whatever you want.”
But, the breaking apart of Protestant denominations is an inherent flaw in the movement.
(Full disclosure: I am a Protestant)
I'm a baptist and I agree... We can't just believe what we want, we should believe in the bible, the written word of God.
I think they said that to try not to split the church... but its already splited... Just not in the outside.
That being said, we can disagree in some theology, but not in the fundamentals.
I would rather go to a catholic church (that i disagree a lot, but i believe still has the fundamentals), than attend a progressive church that threw out Christ to make the world happy.
(sorry about my English. Not my native language)
Along with the other comments. Believing what you want has to do with small variations and theological view. Let's take eternal security of a believer. My pastor and I actually discussed this all the time. He's 100% on the side of that I am not so sure. I won't bore you with the details but we can disagree on that but we agree on all the big stuff. On the small things I go back and read the Bible he reads the Bible and we have a conversation. The type of stuff they're talking about there's just no common ground. The Bible is crystal clear on certain things and I just don't see how you get around it I'm with the previous poster. I'd gladly go to a Catholic church then some progressive non denominational church. Sure I disagree on certain things but on the big stuff, we are good.
It's interesting hearing a movement of younger people to stricter denominations - being told you can do whatever you want doesn't really make for a fulfilling faith experience.
Having values members are counseled to hold to, requirements one must reach before joining a church, it of course is going to turn many many people away, but in the end you'll have a much stronger church, with members who actually want to serve one another.
And this is how being uncompromising dies: with thunderous applause.
This is how it pans out. They charge things to allow contentious things with opt outs for those who disagree, then down the line they make it compulsory. Not just in churches but everywhere.
I appreciate this guy presenting the thinking of both sides.
The more of these videos that I watch the more I am glad that I am Catholic.
Unfortunately, I think things will start falling apart in the Catholic Church too. A lot of conservative Catholics would argue it already has with Pope Francis. The next 20 years are going to be extremely volatile I’m afraid
Many Roman Catholics are so busy sneering and jeering at the Protestants sliding down the slippery slope of leftism that they don't realize that they themselves are on that same slope as those they are jeering, slightly behind but moving downhill just as fast. Exhibit A: Frankie the Frankenpope, the Vicar of Wokeness...
Didn’t your “infallible” pope allow for the blessing of same-sex couples?
The Catholic Church is losing members as well.
@@scotthinzman7698 And the problem with Roman Catholicism is that it is not Biblically catholic concerning the core content of the gospel: the righteousness of Christ for us. Only His righteousness saves. Our righteousness is for sanctification not justification. But if saved, personal, though imperfect this side of glory, righteousness manifests in the believer. It is a response of gratitude for God's mercy. But as a Biblical protestant, I feel much more at home with conservative Roman Catholics than with Leftist fake Protestants. Btw, I am a Protestant-Catholic.
PCUSA is now “sola self.” “Sola sese” or “sola ego” I’m not sure the right Latin.
Woah those first 3 photos of churches that you had were all from my town! Bethlehem, PA. They were all separate Lutheran Churches that merged into one new one.
Excellent summary of what is going on in the Presbyterian churches. Have they ever taken up a proposal to ditch the name Presbyterian as few know what it means anyway.
So all discrimination is bad? Is it not right to discriminate against a 5year old who wants to deliver a sermon and prevent them from doing so? What about someone whose theological position is in direct contrast with scripture or the church’s doctrines?
The Church belongs to Christ - man has no authority to change it so that it opposes Christ. A church that opposes Christ is not a Christian church.
Any church that kicks out Christ is a social club.
Wonder how this is gonna affect Redeemed Zoomer’s Reconquista
Might be retaliation against the reconquista
If it goes through, it will be used to expel the Reconquista faction, but the Reconquista movement is meant to be broader than just the PCUSA. But if the PCUSA expels its faithful members, then at least there will no longer be any reason for evangelicals to exhort them to come out from her.
Don't worry, he'll find a way to spin it as somehow being the fault of Orthodoxy.
He's joining the PCA. Soon ;)
Division is from the Evil One
We need The Church to be one again we are all the Bride of Christ. ❤
I am a member of PCUSA. I love my church and the people of my church.
Are you ghey?
I was American Baptist in Southern California, and was part of the switch to Transformation Ministries in 2006. Our church was biblical, as we're the others in our region, which was why we left ABCUSA.
I saw a meme on Facebook, posted by someone I know who is a convert from Catholic to Episcopal: "We all make errors in our theology: you and me both. So my recommendation is to err on the side of love." Said person believes in celebrating and accepting everyone, which seems to be the norm in the Episcopal church today. Where did God go?
Our hearts changing, but God is still there.
Are you going to make a video covering the movement by Redeemed Zoomer he dubbed the Reconquista?
Plleeeeease do a video on the SSPX. I will pay to see it.
Goodness gracious.......the church is falling and falling fast. Liberalism is spreading like cancer. Grieved my spirit to watch this video. 😔
While the proposed changes do not mandate intolerance toward conservatives, I can't see any other way they can be interpreted and implemented.
All these words amounts to not having any confidence that the Word of God is indeed the Word of God and supersedes man's preferences and affirmations.
Scripture is absolutely clear.
Mainline Denominations: “man our numbers have really suffered these last years… I’m sure a split will help that”
I used to struggle to understand what all those different protestant Churches believe in. Thankfully now I know the answer is simple - nothing really.
I'm curious what they think they are "progressing" to? Sodom and Gomorrah?
"non-'discrimination' " policy.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less. ' '
The shocking thing is that you all were surprised by this. You really should not have stayed in the first place. Doing so, was to be at odds with your conscience and your Lord.
When the lady at the end says that it isn't about belief, she let the cat out of the bag
Some people only know how to communicate with each other when they are arguing.
I wish some in the Catholic Church could see how perilously close we are coming to the mainline Protestants and the consequences of doing so. Being "inclusive and affirming" implies denial of the inerrancy of scripture. Once you deny the inerrancy of scripture, it is a race to the bottom.
So PCUSA has lost the plot too . God does not make up His mind via a " spectrum " of considerations. He's pretty black and white on what He determines right or wrong . Society changes. He doesn't . I'm thankful for His way . Peace
If worldly passions and expressions are more important to you than the truth of Scripture, you are not submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
A bunch of presby USA churches left and joined Evangelical Presbyterian. Now they are bringing it with them and splitting the Evangelical Presbyterian.
The Gospel!
Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 1 Cor 6:9,10
There was some uproar and disaffiliations in my denomination (ELCA) after its 2009 decision to allow the LGBT+ to be ordained and married in our congregations that has continued to this day, albeit at a much slower pace. Interesting to hear how another denomination is handling this.
ELCA will be Unitarian in less than 10 years. They are very close already
Question: How can a church be UCC and American Baptist? I know both have congregational polity, but they have incompatible customs regarding baptism. Do they baptize infants, and then rebaptise after a confession of faith?
The fact that it already says a person can be in Fellowship regardless of theological conviction is a serious red flag.
The foolishness of staying in a compromised denomination in order to "maintain unity' or "be a conservative voice" continues to be shown.
You might want to consider a rabbinic teaching on the difference between the way God punished the generation of the Flood (with total destruction) and those who built the Tower of Babel (with mere dispersion). God spared the latter because they were unified and worked together-even sinfully-whereas the generation of the Flood acted corruptly and violently toward other human beings.
It was always an excuse. They were never truly "conservatives". They were just fearful of losing the church property. For 100 years, they DID NOTHING.
@@KingoftheJuice18 I would not agree with that rabbinic teaching, that attempts to guess at the reasonings behind the mind of God. In reality, one reason God did not spare the pre-flood people was that their bloodline (Noah's family excepted) had been tainted with human-angelic hybrids known as Nephilim (Genesis 6).
1 Corinthians 15:33 applies.
The problem is the reformation itself failed. Not the split. Time to start being Catholic.
At this point, this channel does sounds like a Catholic or Orthodox advertising campaign.
While he does an excellent job presenting information in a non-biased way, I vaguely recall this channel is actually some kind of Baptist.
As for the bad PR coming out of the mainline Protestants... they're doing it to themselves.
If you're craving even marginal amounts of theological stability those are your two options, everyone else is just a weather vane it seems. I'm a humble neoplatonist though, so it's not my fight, I'm just watching from my weird little corner with fascination.
So much 😵💫 Thank God for the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church! ☦️
A definitive Magisterium with a visible headship is sure looking good right about now.
Broad support from a bunch of PCUSA committees who all have some sort of mission where God is made no part. Somehow I can't say I'm all that surprised they like this change. I suspect they do not worship the same God I do and instead worship a god of their own making. Let them have their golden calf. God will deal with them in His time.
I think more important than the question of sexuality is that quite from the one PCUSA elder: "This isnt about belief, its about behavior..."
That statement basically sums up why Christian "faith" has seemed ridiculous in the West since about 1850.
We separated faith out from lived action, as if this can truly be done....
Not all but many.
I'm blessed to have been called to the Lord in a small church with an elderly congregation that serves the community daily through many ministries. The love of our congregation is what swayed me to the Lord, demonstrated fruits of the spirit.
But it's a rarity.
Imagine my shock.
"... not about believe, it's about behavior". PCUSA expects people to behave differently from their believes?
I’m a former PCUSA member. I left because the toleration of sinfulness morphed into promotion of sinfulness, starting with the promotion of gay marriage, clearly a violation of the Bible. It seems that repentance of sin is no longer a thing in the PCUSA.
That's right, christians can't promote mariage (Matthew 18, 11-12 ; 29-30 ; Galatians 3, 26-28).
To clarify, The Fellowship is generally a group of PC-USA churches unable to leave the PC-USA as the PC-USA or Presbytery owns the church property. The congregations that left for ECO or another Reformed denomination either owned their own property (rare, especially in the north), or were able to break a trust that held the property (as my congregation did), or reached some sort of financial settlement with PC-USA.
Regardless of other issues this is what bugs me. While there are exceptions, for the most part the Prebytery will hold the property over the heads of congregations that wish to leave, while congregations will say they 'cannot' leave due to not holding their property. This seems decidedly unchristian on both counts. On the congregation side, if you believe you are in the right, "why do you spend your gold on that which is not bread, your treasure on that which does not satisfy?" Let the wicked keep their treasure: it will not avail them.
To be generous the Presbytery may be trying to 'correct' errant members. But can true repentance ever come from coercion? And at the very least it is made to appear that they greatly value material wealth, and "things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe unto those through whom they come". Even if some are encouraged by the sharing of their views, surely far more outsiders will be discouraged by a church which is so material?
@@professorhaystacks6606 The problem with holding the property is that you end up with a building but no congregants.
@@professorhaystacks6606 In our case, a 3000+ member church with about $70+ million in land plus buildings, if we didn't "own" the property, we couldn't just move somewhere else by renting out a strip center. Not only for worship, but in terms of offices, mission buildings, income generating property, etc. We would have to have joined the Fellowship as our only recourse to maintain our community and Christ's missions work.
@@mjpottertx There are exceptions, as I said. It is of course preferable to reach an accomodation, as it is said "If you are on your way to present an offering and remember a quarrel with your brother, put your offering down and be reconciled so you may present your offering with a clear heart."
But if it really comes down to it? "Let us sell the oil and give the money to the poor": There's always some other use for wealth, and most people think they can spend it better than someone else, but the good that can be done WITH money is far different from the money itself, and confusing the two can become a stumbling block. Or the issue isn't really THAT important. I don't know the individual situations and I don't want to speculate.
I lost my Presbyterian Church 50 years ago. It turned into a liberal's paradise. There are NO Presbyterian Church of America in my area of the country. I have been heart broken for years. I thought 10th Presbyterian in PA was a church I could attend online and I did for longer than a year. However, the minister I liked was dismissed for moral issues. Any idea what that does to the flock? It's not good.
This is what ultimately becomes of Protestantism: endless splitting up. When you split from the Church that Jesus and the Disciples founded to follow the teachings of "reformers" 1,500 years later, things are not going to go well.