Side B and Christian Denominations: A new line in the sexuality debates
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- Denominations that thought they had settled the issues surrounding homosexuality are now making statements about “Side B Christianity”, or they’re holding off until there’s a controversy. Here’s what’s been happening on this issue.
Chapters:
00:00 What is Side B Christianity?
02:17 Denominations making statements on sexuality
03:54 Presbyterian Church in America, Side B, Revoice and Greg Johnson
10:04 Side B Context: Revoice articles on Pride Month
11:22 Greg Johnson’s Book “Still Time to Care” and leaving the PCA
11:54 Southern Baptist Convention response to Side B
13:32 Episcopal Church and Wesley Hill
15:03 Anglican Church in North America and Side B
15:43 Christian Reformed Church in North America and Side B
17:24 Evangelical Covenant Church Embrace Program and Side B
18:17 Church of the Nazarene and Side B
20:00 Living Out and Ed Shaw
23:28 Founders Minstries and Tom Ascol response to Living Out
25:03 Evangelical Presbyterian Church, Side B, and Greg Johnson
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As usual, helpful and comprehensive. Thanks for the clarity. You have a wonderful ministry.
Thank you, John.
The ability of this channel to explain controversial issues in such a parsimonious way is amazing.
Parsimonious? Really?
I was thinking the same. Not just parsimonious, but civil and balanced. This channel is a gem.
I don't think that word means what you think it means. Parsimonius = very unwilling to spend money or use resources (according to Google, I didn't know what that word meant until now).
@@octavianpopescu4776 Parsimonious also means restrained. I think that is what the OP is saying, and I think he is correct.
No, on a couple of videos even conservatives have gently challenged him on constantly throwing gays under the bus. He is not at all neutral on this issue, he's even spread misinformation about it. I get that you may prefer that he promote your agenda, but most people would prefer not to be lied to, wherever they stand on the issue. He's incredibly manipulative and underhanded about it.
Wow man, this was an incredibly thorough, caring and helpful video on a complex and divisive topic. Great job!
This conflict may be divisive, but it is painfully simple. Homosexuality violates natural law, and thus it is immoral. End of story.
Hey R2H, what's it like being the realest dude in the game?
A. It's fine.
B. It's fine but with caveats.
C. It's not fine.
D. It's not fine but with caveats.
E. Just see the results.
Side X is the historical christianity position. Side A is the current cultural position reflected in the church. Side B is a compromise between them. Is it a healthy compromise or a slippery slope? I'll have to get back to you in 50 years for that one.
It is a slippery slope, and even Preston Sprinkle in his podcast they talk about how people on side B goes to side A when they experience "church hurt." Side B is as close to side A as you can get, especially ontologically speaking it's indistinguishable. It is a works based theology, "just don't do it." is their motto. Having lived in side b, it was depressing. Always seeing straight people and gay people having relationships, but none for you! Well, the truth sets you free. I'm side X. What was unfortunately NOT shared in this video is the reason side X is OPPOSITE of side A is not just because of the belief of the identity, behavior, but because the church doctrine of sanctification (such WERE some of you, 1 Cor 6:11) is the truth. I have experienced transformation in my desires, my same sex erotic attraction mortified, not by my will or works, but by Jesus. Side B says God doesn't do that!! Side X is freedom from homosexuality, restoration to heterosexuality, which is how God made EVERY person. Side B teaches God doesn't will to restore us. That sin remains until we die.
As an outside viewer that just finds studying religion fascinating, I think a lot of this discussion shows that there is a distinct difference between "What a denomination teaches" and "What the people in the church believe and do." Sure, there will be people that align completely with the denomination, but in my experience and what I see in discussions like this is that that's far from unanimous. It shows that religions are more complicated than just "official teachings"
You could also see how Christianity got the diagnosis of human condition right. We are lovers of lies and darkness. We want to make reality bend to our desires. This got us kicked out of Eden. This also explains all the denominations. People would rather create a new one that fits their desires.
@@PetarStamenkovic I mean, you could say that about most religions really. Most religions have stuff to say about the human condition, and also have a variety of denominations and groups
the underlying problem being "what a denomination teaches". If your church / faith claims that everyone gets to interpret scripture however they like, they don't have a leg to stand on when the congregation falls into heresy.
@@sammysamlovescats It is true that division and confusion is not unique to Christianity, but Christianity gets it right on any topic. Take for example what human nature is. Many people, religions and worldviews insist that we, humans, are fundamentally good and that we like truth. Those religions and philosophies are dangerously wrong.
Truth unites, lies fracture. Truth is one, lies are innumerable. Only truth can save us.
Christianity gets it wrong a lot of times. It is only through the grace of God that we are not destroyed a few times already. Humanity are learning, but also making new mistakes. Don't cover up failures, but serve as witness so others can learn.
Your videos are great! They provide excellent information on the subject matter for further reflection. Keep 'em coming! Thanks for all your hard work and analysis!
Well you keep doing it. The amount and quality level of information you share is first rate! Thank you.
this is very informative. thank you!
Very well researched. I know the late Rev. Keller came up in this a lot, he was one of the authors of the PCA’s position paper on sexuality that came out in 2020.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Extremely helpful and informative. Thank you.
Thanks for this explainer!!
As someone who has had to live my entire life as celibate to honor God's command; When I was in my lowest point, and deepest struggle, I felt God say "Anything you include in your identity that is not 'My life is fully surrendered to Christ' is idolatry." Many days are still a struggle, and I often pray for strength to deal with the temptations and loneliness. But because my identity is in Christ alone and for Christ alone, I find strength to overcome my sinful brokenness.
God bless you. This should get pinned at the top. Your sacrifice will not be without reward!
I converted to Christianity from atheism by way of reading philosophy. I converted in private and chose a church to attend based on the simplicity of their name. I didn't understand the nuances of denominations and theology I only understood that Christ died for my sin and that every knee shall bow to Christ. The scriptures that convinced me were Matthew 5 and 1st Corinthians 1 (very important). Immediately afterward I was overwhelmed by every Christian I met and half the unbelieving world with the, in my view, strange question, what kind of Christian are you? In hindsight I recognized my state as a new believer naturally holding to Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Lutheran views of the Bible. This while simultaneously using a caricature of the different denominations to differentiate, judge and condemn different denominations. My point is that is I personally experience the political nature of Christendom and the desire to qualify myself before Christ. Or the contrast of: "my identity is in Christ alone and for Christ alone" My friend you are not alone. You and I are the same and we have been snatched from the condemning fire of our ego by Christ's strong and loving hand. Christ alone is also this former atheist's "mantra". When I was a new Christian I understood that given time I would also understand the nuances between denominations but I was forced to play politics and choose a side. Few ever asked me what school of philosophy I had previously adhered to. Only a few friends a Priest and my wife. The Elders and Pastors and Rabbis and Preachers didn't care, they wanted met to choose a side. So now it is the LGBTQ community's (which is hardly a community at all) turn. All of Christendom shouts in unison "choose a side, choose a side, choose our side or you're hell bound but quickly choose a side!"
The Joy of Celibacy.
@@finnkuudere3516 Christ can do anything he wants. he has free will.
@@finnkuudere3516 What was that philosophy?
Why do you believe the bible to be the standard of truth of the word of god?
Why make the decision to make this change in the face of insufficient evidence?
What do you think of the idea of someone praying to god asking the truth of such questions, and getting the answer that the bible is untrustworthy as it is not his inerrant word?
What possible suggestions do you have for someone who tries to repent of their sins, but instead of being able to be happy as promised, they are only miserable?
Any counter you have to this question I require some more backing up then just "they aren't trying to repent hard enough." Say something original.
Why do we need jesus' sacrifice in the first place?
I have several reasons to question this, and each one you will find to be next to impossible to counter without some apologetics that can just be torn down.
...and so on and so forth.
It’s interesting watching the debate
The USA president debate?
Thank you for the work you do!
Thanks for the info!
Topic idea: Views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Love your work!
Honestly, I'd like to see where they lie on this issue
His channel is more about presenting information, not a commentary of his own views. Unless you mean presenting facts of views of certain church denominations on the I-P conflict. In that case I'd wager it's difficult to find that kind of information.
@@ninjason57Consider that different denominations have different views on Israel’s role in end times. Depending on a denomination’s eschatology they may be very interested in this conflict (as it plays in to various end-times scenarios) or they may consider Israel as just another nation and not of any real Biblical interest or note for the New Testament Church. So you’re correct that it’s outside this channel’s scope to talk about the current conflict with Israel and Iran, talking about the various denominations eschatology may touch on it, and is in scope.
@@ninjason57
I have once seen Useful Charts reply to a comment on one of his videos and say that he is "definitely not a Zionist", I imagine his thoughts on the Hamas conflict are complicated though.
Here in Canada the Anglican Church is like the episcopal church in the USA.
Not the EACA
I am an EPC teaching elder (retired) and was not at the GA. I want to thank you for your attention to this ongoing issue in all of the Kingdom. I do not know what the future holds but I know who is in charge... Thanks again and I look forward to your other posts
The way you just give facts and the info with out much or any bias Definitely this day and age Plain simply amazing
That were quite interesting cases how denominations deal with LGBTQ issues that aren’t affirming. The official position of the Catholic Church is probably best described by side-B since conversion therapy is rejected and the church acknowledges that there are people with same sex attractions btw. I would say the topic of how to minister to LGBTQ people is very important. You can find a lot of homophobic comments on the internet (also below this video) that aren’t in any way charitable towards gay Christians and just view their existence as a bogeyman towards „biblical“ Christianity. That this hate leads to self-doubt and hurting among LGBTQ Christians is self-evident. So it’s really important to have ministries that walk with LGBTQ Christians in love and be on their eye level and not from above - and I don’t see how side x can archive that in any way
No matter how you cut it, expecting gay people to stay celibate for life for no reason other than ‘the bible said so’ is itself what is hurting and keeping lgbt ppl away from your Churches. Why don’t you go ask straight people to do that and let me know how they react! Your own Pope refers to gay people using slurs. Religion is a human made invention used to oppress others, nothing more, nothing less.
Catholic Church is side Y if anything
@@fujikokun well one very prominent side b Christian that‘s also Catholic is Eve Tushnet. I would interpret the statements from the current Vatican magisterium in context with the Catholic teachings on sex and marriage as a side b approach, there are enough Catholic lgbt organizations and I think the Catholic church doesn’t prohibit the use of the word „gay Christian“, is against the criminalization of homosexual activities and conversion therapy.
@@simonkraemer3725 You can find black people that are pro slavery. 99% of gay people do not accept your bigoted ideology that threatens them with eternity in hell for daring to love a person of the same sex. And 99% of straight Christians wouldn’t accept lifelong celibacy either.
@@RationalistMH I mean, doesn't the Catholic church ask all of its priests, bishops, friars, monks, and nuns to do that? It also teaches its married couples to avoid contraceptive methods (beyond keeping up with the menstrual cycle to determine when the wife is less likely to be fertile), thereby limiting their sexual behavior to a far larger degree than most Protestants do. So yeah, I think it's absolutely consistent with the general Vatican policies on sex.
Still waiting for that population analysis video about the Catholic Church...
This topic was very interesting, we rarely hear the actual theological distinctions of such denominations in their own words. I love all of these topics you do, keep em coming!
Thanks! I do want to do more videos on stats but I have to keep them spread out, some people don't enjoy them!
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@@ReadyToHarvest ❤️
Thanks for taking the time to help sort out the different views of American Christians on the vexed issue of homosexuality.
The Church cannot hope to escape controversies roiling the wider culture and society.
Charity in all things.
Could you go over the SBC and the Nicene Creed? There was a recent huff-n-puff about it at the conference.
A huff and puff that would've blown their house down if they had accepted the Nicene Creed, this little line being the explosive bit, "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness/remission of sins".
@alisterrebelo9013 You should check out Gavin Ortlund's recent video discussing this. He provides a good case for why this line from the Nicene Creed isn't a problematic statement for the SBC to affirm. It is, after all, a direct quote (or nearly so) from Scripture.
@@24psmithOrtlund did violence to the Creed in his “explanation.” He twisted the Nicene Creek’s verbiage to mean something that the Council Fathers did not accept.
It seems to me that Church of the Nazarene calling themselves side B was absolutely not mandated by their doctrinal statements. Someone inside the denomination is trying to tip the scales on that one.
If you want to actually read a comment from someone experienced in this space:
I have been in SSA/Side B land for years (I've been to Revoice and have met many of the individuals and organizations mentioned here). And I will say, I think this topic has become confusing and almost unnavigable semantically for Christians who have not studied or lived within this debate. Everyday christians aren't being offered these abstract terms like 'homosexualism' or 'homosexual self-conception' from the pews, and the 'Side ABXY' whatever language does nothing to bring clarity or goodwill to the conversation. I see many Christians just deciding that this topic does not warrant nuance (unlike many other theological topics which widely receive sympathy and where complex views are respected) perhaps because the terminology feels meaningless and too far removed from Scripture itself. But instead of listening to those who can actually speak to the queer x Christian intersection with meaningful Biblical interpretation that gets deeper than 'Side [Blank]' sort of language, many actively seek to just silence what they see as gay Christian 'slippery slope' BS by throwing a meaningless one-liner into the comment sections of content like this and giving themselves a pat on the back for their superior Scriptural interpretations. (Do I have to say - WWJD folks?)
But regardless of what these denominations are publishing from their many 'assemblies', those of us who are not finding ourselves within heterosexuality cannot just sit by and wait for our faith communities to decide what they will let us do. There's a reason that the Side B community has primarily existed online and not in actual church spaces so far. We need to know for ourselves what godly embodiment of all sexualities looks like now, not in 2026 EPC. These 'statements on human sexuality' feel more like houses built on sand than substantial takes on what the Bible says. They keep changing, so we haven't been able to rely on churches being safe spaces as a result no matter what 'side' we land on.
Thank you for your covering of this topic.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Very good that you mention the diversity with many possible views, and that there are also different views within the same denomination too. For example in the denomination where I´m a member - Church of Sweden (our equivalent to church of England) the view differs between congregations and individual priests and individual parish members. Personally I guess I can be labled as having some thoughts in common with some variant of the B-perspective, but I have a complicated view.. On a national level Church of Sweden has both "same sex marriage" and women priests, but in one of the congregations I visit often in Göteborg, Swedens 2d largest town, neither such marriages nor women priests would be possible - because the congregations members simply want it to be so, Also the priests have a formal right to perform marriages, but not the duty to do it, so the priests have some freedom. Also on other issues the large differences today are often not between the denominations - but straight through them. I go to where I believe that there is a divine presence.
I sometimes go to other denominations, for example the Catholic Church. The Catholic vicar in our town actually preaches more Lutheran than some priests in my own Lutheran church. I´m sort of an ecumeical non denominational christian, but I have my "base" in Church of Sweden. I´d say I´m a theologically conservatige christian - but maybe not a typical such, being also christian & vegan, and animal rights activist, inspired by professor & priest Andrew Linzey in England, pastor Frank Hoffman in USA, and other well known names in the "veggie-christian movement".🙂
Now I'm curious what Side Y is
It agrees with Side X that same-sex identification is wholly unacceptable, but it agrees with Side B that conversion therapy is ineffective.
@@MAMoreno Thanks
Side Y lies between Side B and Side X.
Basically, the spectrum of "sides" looks like this:
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
Side Y is likely the more correct view theologically...what I'd like to know is what denominations actually fall into the category of Side Y.
@@reeferfranklin None. If you think Y is the correct view, you are outside of all theological movements be it conservative or liberal. Its good to know where one stands, even if alone.
And here I thought SSA meant Social Security Administration.
🤣
Thats a good one.... when I hear SSA I think of social security first!
We must continue to share Truth - in 2008, I was a gay-identified man, in a committed, monogamous same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, where we called ourselves gay Christians. Then I found myself in an ICU where the medical team classified me clinically dead after a 22-minute flatline. I experienced death, judgement and hell. When I couldn’t take any more demonic torment, I cried out in repentance, “Jesus!” and I heard the Savior say, “I am here.” At that moment, I saw with my eyes the Wind of the Holy Spirit fill my ICU and with great power, He pick up Satan and the demonic and blew them out of the room. On that day, my life changed, the redemptive Blood of Jesus cleared my mind of perversion, and completely healed and restored every failing organ. Glory to God!
Thank you for your testimony 🙏
Reminds me of the last line in 1984 "He loved big brother".
it's not uncommon to hallucinate when you flatline.
@@kittyborf no hallucinations here
@@CrossAndWindMinistries I am unaware of any reliable mechanism that is able to differentiate between a "natural" NDE and a "supernatural" NDE.
I would ask you to cite the peer reviewed and published paper that you based your determination on, but I know that you won't because you can't because you have nothing.
You claim to have had an experience, so now you believe you are the "special one" who out of the billions of non Christians on the planet your god chose to turn up and introduce itself, but instead of presenting your evidence of this encounter and winning yourself the Templeton prize, you post on CZcams.
Lmfao
Its The first minute and I've already got many questions:
Why is side A, the first letter of the alphabet given to the affirming side, which is a later development?
Why is side A compared to side X? I'd have understood side V and side X or side A and B, but not A and X.
A probably stands for affirming
X is a universal symbol to stop things
B is in between
Y is close to X, but not quite
Seems to make sense.
In the Greek alphabet (original written language of the NT) the “X” was the 1st letter of the word (representing) “Christ.”
In (very)early church history, the “X” was used in reference to Christ (or cross).
A possible (logical) theory would be that “side X,” would represent that of what consisted in the (original) 1st century(1st several centuries) of the Christian “church.”
The Gospel/Christ hasn’t changed, man has…
@@chasityrhodus7299 thank God we have! Imagine living in a world like they did without technology, medicine, the internet, cars, planes, running water, air conditioning. Sometimes I wonder if Jesus could have imagined all these things and why he still chose to speak to the population he did when 2000 years later the internet and Google translate would have greatly expedited his mission.
@@CountJeffulalol
2 Timothy 4:3 (CSB)
"For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear"
Great video as always, though the AI art bg was rather distracting
It's actually quite sad to see the common western Christian throw away their faith over a topic like this.
Yeah it’s weird seeing splits over this. One would think splits would happen more on the absolute core fundamentals like Christology or church polity or eschatology, but nope for some reason Protestant churches in America divide themselves over something very material with an obvious answer.
@@saldol9862What is the obvious answer?
It's as if there's some sort of Agenda on the side of homosexuality proponents.
@@jdamsel8212The Bible condemns homosexuality several times in Leviticus, Roman’s, Corinthians, and possibly Timothy. There is little question.
@@saldol9862 We see the same happening with lay Catholics too. How many ordinary European Catholics support LGBT and other unChristian cultural norms? A lot, maybe even a majority. Even American Catholics like Joe Biden are pro-LGBT and pro-abortion.
What is the definition of Side Y that you mentioned?
Based on what I've seen other people say. I haven't investigated Side B and Y personally.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
If the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches had historically precluded from the clergy men who were even tempted by homosexual desires, I wonder whether they would have survived to this day, given all people (I am Greek Orthodox) in these churches are obligated to give confession.
I find some of the positions confusing. If there is a “side x” person out there who can help me understand: is it your position that there are certain temptations, which preclude formal church ministry, even if a person lives in repentance regarding those temptations? Is the issue the temptation, the self-association with the temptation, or both? If a person is tempted in that way but makes no public acknowledgment about that temptation, is that more acceptable than making the acknowledgment?
I ask in good faith, as one who is genuinely curious. Thanks!
I think, historically, this was not even a question that was asked of men joining the priesthood but it kinda was always known that some men did indeed join the priesthood as a means to escape marriage and indulge in sodomy, within the priesthood and kept it quiet.
It was understood that these men would not be scrutinized and in return, they stayed within the priesthood and made sure they didnt bring scandal to themselves and the wider Church.
If "clergy", whatever the nonsense that is, had these problems, then they shouldn't be there. I would never dare to even think of going into the ministry if my christian life was that messed up. Christians should stop loving their sin more than God; they should stop making Sin their lord and master, and stop making Jesus a beggar. I read no gospel in these comments. No wonder the world laughs and mocks.
The Catholic Church still bans admitting men with homosexual tendencies to seminaries.
But I’m not sure what you are trying to say with your Confession comment. Violating the Seal of the Confessional is a serious crime. If a Confessor reveals with the Penitent said within the Confessional, they are automatically excommunicated.
@@carsonianthegreat4672 That’s interesting about seminary admissions.
However, my point about confessions, I think, still stands. A priest may confess to a homosexual sin. The confessor may have the discretion to put him under obedience (penance). If it were entirely true that men with homosexual desires cannot serve as clergy, I would imagine confessors would obligate priests who confess as much to ask their bishops to be relieved of duty. I’m not Catholic, so I may be misunderstanding, but I know, as an Orthodox Christian, seeing men mysteriously step away from the priesthood is far rarer than what I imagine to be the statistical distribution of men with homosexual tendencies.
@@robertAGC requiring a penitent to reveal their sin to another as a condition of absolution is still a violation of the Seal of Confession and still results in automatic excommunication. In your scenario, the confessor who tried to obligate that would be excommunicated from the Church.
Also, it should be noted that while gay men are not allowed to be admitted to seminary/ordained to the priesthood, if a man with homosexual temptations were to be ordained by mistake, or to develop homosexual desires later in life, they don’t stop being a priest. Their ordination was/is still a real ordination.
I lean in to the B or Y position (based on what it was explained to be below in the comments).
I understand that there is testimonial and scientific evidence that people are indeed born with their sexual orientation, and LGBT orientations also have been found to be linked with conditions like Autism, ADHD, Bipolar, etc (in my personal long term research on the matter, and academic studies), and so I cannot say that being 'born' with something as part of you biologically/neurologically can be "sin" in itself that someone can be accused of or demanded to repent of, though the 'act' and attraction type it promotes is of course something sinful.
Whilst I do not compare gay people with pedophiles, there is scientific research also showing people are born with an orientation to children, and yet everyone believes it to be wrong to act out those attractions on minors. And so in such a stead, I'd hold based on God's word, homosexual 'acts and relationships' to be sinful, and such urges for such are a result of the fall as far as humanity is concerned. But those born with the inner makeup and orientation toward the same sex, are no different from anyone else born with a specific condition.
If a person is too afraid to come out to you, even though they are not committing any sinful act or living a homosexual lifestyle, or even if they have but are repentant/struggling, then something is wrong and the love of Christ isn't being expressed in the Congregation. We must differentiate the sin from the sinner, and be empathetic people to those with such inborn struggles.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
But pedophiles hurt children as they cannot consent. Neither can animals consent. Why should gay people deny themselves though? Why do you not compare homosexuality to heterosexuality ?
So...I'm of the opinion that Side Y is likely the most theologically cirrect position...what I'm unaware of is which denominations actually fall into the category of Side Y?
Here's an excellent video on that, a discussion between an eastern orthodox priest and a doctor who is now an episocpal priest from a decade ago. Both seem to take the "Side Y" stance, which also seems to be that of the Holy Fathers of the early church from what I've read and seen. czcams.com/video/PCdU_0UA78o/video.html
Catholics would fall into Side Y. Based on what I've seen other people say. I haven't investigated Side B and Y personally.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
The Catholic Church is usually considered “Side Y”
I think side B is pretty accurate. The only thing I would abstain from is using terms like "gay Christian" or "queer Christian". Not really because of the identification problem because it can also be just a neutral description, but because of it's cultural context. These terms are often used by people who claim to be Christian while living a homosexual lifestyle and denying the sinfulness of this. I personally never refer to myself as "gay Christian" or "gay" in general to avoid any misconceptions. But if someone is more comfortable with that, I don't think it's sinful to use it.
I think there is a hard line when it comes to homosexual acts. I think when you're at a point where you don't see anything wrong with living an openly homosexual lifestyle, you're doctrine is no longer Christian because it is directly attacking the foundations of Christianity. The terminology and how to best refer to oneself is a question of personal preference and debatable, the sinfulness of homosexual acts is not.
Yeah, same here. I know some Christians who were gay that have been made straight (not through some program, but through their own faith experience). So that is real. But other believers have scrambled sexual attractions that don't go away, and they're still able to live faithfully.
I agree that the term "gay Christian" is not something I would use. In the cultural context "I'm gay" usually means rejecting a lot of scripture and sexual morality, as something we are holding against God. But even "straight" includes adultery and pron and casual sex. So we're not aiming to be merely gay or straight, but Biblical.
Sides B, X, A... What happened to right or wrong according to God's Word?
Forget it! They don't know what that is.
When we have to reason amongst ourselves to find out what God means and use democratic practices to decide what God means, then God is not part of the conversation. That process itself is the removal from God, not the subject matter being discussed.
The essence and foundation about God is the communication with Him.
I do think you can be gay (albeit celibate) and a Christian. It just doesn't seem helpful to identify as a "gay Christian", since it implies that there is a difference between gay and straight Christianity. Whatever defects of character we have should not be used as modifiers for our shared faith in Christ. And those defects DEFINITELY should not be celebrated with the language and symbolism of "pride" or a sense of solidarity with those who openly practice LGBT lifestyles.
I don't think it should be regarded as an identity so much as an explanation. And by an explanation, I mean something that an adult male can honestly tell people when they walk up to him at a church service and say for the thousandth time, "Why don't you just find a nice girl and settle down?" (Same with an adult woman, obviously, but they often seem to be regarded as a lower priority for some reason.) The issue with Side X is that it may only exacerbate such social pressures for a celibate "gay" person, potentially leading to an unwise and ill-fated marriage that is harmful to everyone involved.
@@MAMoreno You don't have to be gay to be pressured into a bad marriage.
Wasn't Henri Nouwen a Side B Christian? (although he may not have used the term)
Really interested in the implied 21 positions between Side B and Side X...
Side M here 🙋♂️
Thanks!
I appreciate that!
The Catholic Church is “Side Y.”
Side Y can be summarized like this:
1) homosexual attraction (as the the Catechism teaches) is “intrinsically disordered”
2) the mere experience of temptation is not itself a personally culpable sin. Acting/dwelling in the temptation is sinful
3) gay men are banned from entering the seminary/priesthood
4) the use of terms like “a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction” can be allowed in certain contexts, so long as the primary identifier remains Christian and not the attraction. Terms like “gay Christian” are typically discouraged/seen as needlessly confusing/imprudent
@readytoharvest i've seen some great videos recently on obscure Christian churches. I think you are a maestro with your content creation. It be amazing if you did some videos on those churches as well. Especially the Christian Community (Anthroposophy), Liberal Catholic Church, and the neo-Gnostic churches today (Ecclesia Gnostica, Eglise Gnostique Apostolique). They are fascinating heterodox churches that would be be great informational video material.
How many denominations does St Paul recommend?
None, only the one true Church, the Catholic Church, which is pre-denominational.
So Side B is basically Catholic Doctrine on the subject
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Well, not really, you would have to add a couple of ‘ f slurs’ to make this properly Catholic. It is the ‘one true Church’ after all 😌
The Catholic position is actually closer to "Don't ask don't tell" while actual doctrine has only been modified to state that homosexuality isn't a violation of canon law.
No. Side Y would be much closer to what the preference of the Church seems to be. Meaning the desires themselves are not sinful but it is not wise to identify oneself by them.
Not quite. The Catholic Church is more “Side Y.” It prohibits letting gay men into seminaries/the priesthood. However, it permits the use of language like “a Christian with same-sex attraction” (in certain contexts) provided that the primary identity is Christian/Catholic, not SSA.
How about instead of trying to identify as a gay Christian, you just identify as Christian and affirm the Bible's teaching on marriage? Our identity is in Christ, not our sexuality. The modern world is obsessed with sexuality because it is a worship of the self.
No one is identifying as an alcoholic Christian or adulterous Christians because our sins don't define us anymore.
If our identity is in Christ, then how can women be Christians? They are identifying as a man, which makes them trans, which is wrong per conservative Christianity. Ergo, women can’t be Christians.
Amen to this, the world is trying to make sexuality our identity. If we are truly born again, we have died. Our new life is in Christ.
Because most churches defy the Bible's teaching on marriage.
Bingo!
YES, no identifies as a Cat Burglar Night Thief Christian, or (someone who sleeps with prostitutes once a week on a regular basis being a prostitutes customer) a John Christian.
Genuine question for Side X people, do you think that people with same-sex attraction without acting on it will go to hell if they don't lose that attraction?
I don’t think so. I would call it temptation. As a married man does not just loose attraction to other women.
No. It is a weakness product of original sin, It is , as The Catholic Cathecism teaches "intrinsically disordered" because is an atraction towards Something sinful and is not God's will. But if You don't act on You are faithful to Christ.
No, you have to repent for lusting and make yourself right with God, same as anyone else. Jesus tells us as much at the Sermon on the Mount.
Temptation is supposed to be dealt with so that Jesus shuts the door on it permanently. The purpose of temptation is to exercise Faith and overcome it. When that fails to happen, something is wrong.
No, I dont. Every Christian has their cross to bear.
Jesus said when we believe on Him, we become a new creation. We are also told to turn from sin, and sin no more.
When SSA (or any sin) rears its head in a believer, they need to cry out to Christ for forgiveness and strength to endure to the end.
Side X is the biblical view
The real issue is about leaders sexually abusing their subordinates. Whether priests, ministers, teachers, or any other authority, leaders should not indulge their sexual desires upon a person in their charge.
Certainly that's a big issue, though secular institutions are full of sexual abuse while only criticising others. Statistics suggest that opposing homosexuality helps in combating sexual abuse, but much more is also needed.
That’s unrelated. The majority of those instances are against the opposite gender.
@@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts That’s not true. I just found multiple studies from government agencies that say the percentage of abusers that are homosexual is 0% to 3.1%. These limits are within current estimates of the prevalence of homosexuality in the general community.
The don't care about that.
@@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts do you have a source for these statistics you're referencing?
Interesting. I’m Catholic and the official church teaching seems to be Side B, although there are many who advocate for Side A and Side X.
Side A is unambiguously ruled out.
Catholics have *always* had a way for being completely against the church's teachings, but supporting the church anyway, while not even realising their actions make no sense. 🤣
@@jdotoz Beg your pardon? I went to a Catholic high school and learned Side B from my ex-seminary religion teacher.
@@SRMkay Well, the magisterial teaching is as clear as it is definitive: sex is only for within marriage, and marriage consists only of exactly one unmarried man and exactly one unmarried woman. There's no room for Side A. The only question is about homosexual identity (that is, B or X). I believe the teaching favors B overall, but perhaps not exactly.
@@jdotoz I actually misread your original reply, I thought you said Side *B* was ruled out. My mistake!
Well, all very interesting, as well as confusing. (NOT the video, but a confusing issue to most Christians...) As a lay pastor in the PCUSA, who sees this divisive issue continually eroding away the fabric of nearly every denomination, I find it abhorrent that those who have a biblical view of sin (any sin, not just sexual sin), are being asked to openly affirm behavior the Bible has traditionally viewed as sin, rather that be satisfied with tolerance. Tolerance and affirmation aren't the same thing. I was the only member present to vote against the Olympia Overture when it was presented last year, before it was sent on to the General Assembly. There is no longer tolerance on the part of those in the LGBTQ+2A community for those who disagree with them: We must be fully and completely, joyfully even, affirm their identity or leave. And that is just what the small church I serve may decide to do. I am personally against labels of any sort with regards to Christians and their faith. I bristle when people identify themselves as "Catholic", Presbyterian", "Methodist" as a modifier of their named faith just as much as when someone says they are a "Gay Christian", etc. Since when did our identity in Christ need to be modified? Only when culture replaced biblical authority and orthodoxy in the Church. Our identity as Christians should be with Christ, with what He did for us via the Cross and the Resurrection, and should not be tainted by the world or what the world seeks to impose on the Church. When this happens, the devil rejoices and Christ Jesus weeps... Even so, come Lord Jesus.
James Martín doctrine?
James Martin is basically a heresiarch at this point.
If the Bible says it I believe it and that's all there is to it.
So you believe that your all loving, just and perfectly moral god "blessed" the depravity in Psalm 137.9 (MASB1995)
Sick beyond belief.
1st! Last time I was this early, the position on homosexuality was clear
It is clear. Lost modern society is pushing this issue.
It still is.
Come back a year from now and it will be the same.
Yes it is 100% crystal clear::
(New International Version)
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Romans 1:26-28
=======
1 Corinthians 7:2
Mark 10:6-9
Jude 1:7
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I wonder what a "Side B" position on adultery would look like?
The idea of Christian denominations is not a Christian idea
Well it happened, and we can’t make it un-happen, his church is still guided
I don't understand why anyone in church should know your sexual preference. Why is the talk in churches among Christians about LGBT? There never has been any questions or discussions with a heterosexual about their sexual practices.
As a bisexual Christian experiencing a lot of trauma, suppressing and self hate because of my sexuality, that’s why we talk about it, and also because there is a lot of hate against lgbtq people and just bad thinking.
@@MartinHansenGamer your a bot and if you really cared you would try conversion therapy and seek assistance for your disorientation
@@MartinHansenGamerGenuine question; no resentment, just trying to start a dialogue, but what difference does it make adding the prefix? The only difference I see between "Christian" and "gay Christian" is that the latter just highlights which passion you struggle against the most. Honestly trying to understand
@@javiervega1065 He is already bisexual so he can marry a woman. There is no need for ‘conversion therapy’ here, a pseudo scientific practice that all psychological organizations affirm to be hogwash.
Everyone already knows most people's sexual preference. You can't see that, though, because most people are straight. But when you see parents bringing a child to be baptized, congrats, you know their sexual preference. When you're aware that your pastor has a wife, congrats, you know his sexual preference. Gays aren't asking for anything that isn't already done.
I feel like the Catholic Church is side B, where the sin isn't in having an attraction but in acting on it. Just like how I may feel attracted to multiple women, however it is only sinful if I sexually engage with multiple women.
It is at most side B.
I wonder if Fiducia Supplicans was objected to mostly by people on side X. If so, perhaps I do understand why it seems like a seismic shift.
The Catechism does not speak of homosexual desires, as such, as being desired nor sinful (cf. CCC 2358).
If we are going to play this game, then the Catholic Church is Side Y not B. The Catholic Church absolutely rejects the "gay" identity, because the only identity that matters is being a child of God, which is in direct contradiction to the "gay" identity.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
@@alisterrebelo9013 I am not well versed with the letters of sides, it seems like it's building it's own alphabet. Kind of fitting for this issue lol. In that description I think I would agree.
No because the cathecism teaches that homosexuality tendencies are "intrinsically disordered" and because Catholicism teaches that is possible to reach complete Holiness in This life.
@@HolyKhaaaaanFiducia Supplicans was not a “seismic shift.” The Pope later clarified that there was no change in doctrine, and that the attraction is still intrinsically disordered and that the union cannot be blessed.
I have same sex attraction and do not like to use the term gay, as that is more of a lifestyle to me. I guess I fall somewhere in between side b and side x.
I see what you mean. I’m bisexual and have no problem using it as I view it as simply a description of my temptations.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
I think examining the Mormon position here would also be interesting. Their church has a long history of being side X but they are distinct from most other Christians in that marriage is a requirement for full salvation. This results in more pressure for and cases of openly same sex attracted Mormons to marry a member of the opposite sex. Sometimes their descriptions sound more like side b but with an emphasis on heterosexual marriage rather than celibacy.
I like how Protestants spring into action against Catholics with "justification through faith alone," but then when it comes to sexuality, suddenly the theology becomes works-based.
Justification by faith alonene does not mean sin doesnt exist
@@BotPlays2222 James 2:14-26
Sola Scriptura is Denied by Protestants who Ignore the clear abomination of sinful apostacy.
@@BotPlays2222 And sin is not meant to be fetishized into something to enforce social hierarchies.
@@sufiameen6093 it's funny when you ask a non-Catholic Christian to show you in the Bible where sola scriptura can be found they never have and answer because it's not in there. What came before the Bible was TRADITION which they deny.
Christian's where not seeking this subject. This topic has been thrust upon the majority of people. The majority wasn't not interested in exploring sexual topics constantly over and over.
There is/was a small movement that wants sexuality to be overtly public. To make known who and what types of people they enjoy having sex with. Trust me the vast majority of people do not, did not, nor ever even wanted to have this conversation yet we, near all of us, from where we work to now church to all places of live *must* be confronted with what other people do in their bedrooms and forced to know who and what type of sex they enjoy.
I speak for the majority: We didn't want this nor ask for it yet we get blamed for saying anything about it that others may not like. We didn't start this fire and we'd love to not be part of it but repeatedly over and over asked to join in a conversation that never ends.
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Yeah sure, you talk about it 24/7, more than gay people themselves do but expect us to believe you have been ‘forced’ to confront this issue. No, you love your scapegoat and you love gossip, its just human psychology. Having an outgroup to demonize strengthens the in group. Since 95% of Church goers will never deal with this issue personally, it is the ideal ‘sin’ to demonize
The difference in side b and side x can easily be dispelled by asking “what do you mean by that”
It seems to me the PCA has chosen a "don't ask - don't tell" approach? As long as you don't talk about (or demonstrate) your sexual self image you're okay.
We all have sinful desires - the sin is dwelling on them or acting on them while the bible calls us to resist them. But the fact that we are tempted is a result of our fallen human nature, not a sin in and of itself.
If you're tempted, it is for a purpose, to test your Faith, so that you may know whether it is real and overcome, or bogus and you go round and round. Jesus had his trying time with the Tempter and prevailed. Then He moved on with His ministry. A genuine "born again" believer is supposed to do the same and move on with his christian life, and that's how it used to be until all these fake gospels and fake little jesus figments of people's imaginations came along. The problem is most of you don't understand the power of the gospel and you are turning it into just another powerless dead religion without consequence. Is that what Christ died to accomplish? Methinks not. Christ rose from the grave; a lot of you seem to think He's still there.
I'm not fond of using "alcoholic" or "drug addict" as an identifier either. I think that it labels the person and affects the way they think about themselves. That is why I have issues with Alcoholics Anonymous and their continued affirmation of one another as alcoholics.
Our common problem causes us to look for a common solution. It may not be for everyone, but identifying our problem helps at least some of us accept the solution: turning our lives over to God.
@@HolyKhaaaaan People like this want common solutions because complex ones hurt their fee fees.
To me it’s like how we call each other sinners, I am a sinner, but redeemed in Christ, so it goes that one could say
“I am an alcoholic, but I am not going to let that shackle me forever”
I am side B, calling myself a gay Christian. This offends many people and they seem to not care that I have been celibate 20 years. Part of coming to the Lord was admitting what I am, and that many of my behaviors was not grieving for my best friend who committed suicide a long time ago. I still get called the 'F' word, also sodomite and abomination (also apostate, a JW thing). I no longer care what a mere man calls me. I only care what the Living God thinks of me.
It was brave of you to admit that. I can appreciate how much of a challenge it must be to me a faithful Christian and living a pure life with such orientation being part of your makeup. My prayers for you, and God's blessings
I really relate to what you’re saying as a bisexual Christian! People really don’t understand why someone could call themselves a queer and also a Christian, God bless you!
You are really a Side Y Christian because at the core it seems that you acknowledge that your identity is a "child of God" trumps all other identities, as seen by your commitment to celibacy for 20 years.
Side A: Gay sex is not a sin.
Side B: Gay sex is a sin, but the "gay" identity is not.
Side Y: The "gay" identity is a sin, but same-sex attraction is not.
Side X: Same-sex attraction is a sin.
You must try conversion therapy
truth be known If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
My pastor seems to be side B but also there’s a really blurry line between side B and side X in my view so idk. He’s definitely not in favor of focusing on homosexuality and mostly ignores the topic
My denomination on average, is between Side A and Side B from my experience. I'm of the ELCA for reference. I don't have a strong view toward either direction myself but I lie somewhere between Side A and Side B. The ELCA doesn't affirm or oppose same sex relations so it's an issue that depends on the congregation and individual discernment. At the end of the day, what matters most is that we are saved by Grace alone and faith alone. God is who matters. the Bible is what matters.
Sounds like Side B's plan is to just keep the slope as slippery as possible, and only take one little step onto it.
For me, if two gay guys don't want to have sex with each other, or make a pretense of doing so, but do wish to have a richly, emotionally deep and vulnerable life together, I don't see the problem with that.
Of course, in the Catholic Church, we have monasteries where they do that already. Are all monastics orgiastic according to Protestants?
I mean, what's the alternative? Conversion therapy?
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@@tarumath319
Abstinence.
When the Apostles complained about Jesus's position on marriage, His response was to explain about eunuchs.
@@joshuakarr-BibleMan that's side b position, to abstain....
i love learning about religion, but i actually think my favorite part of this channel is seeing everyone in the comments asserting their own conflicting religious opinions as the most obvious truth. fascinating
It's like watching Star Trek fans argue over canon, only with more threats.
Every topic is like this, especially politics. Religion at least has the excuse that it is the most important thing in life because it deals with ultimate truth.
@@workinpromo i think that's exactly what makes religious topics so interesting to me. i don't believe in any gods or supernatural things, so i observe religion through a sociological / psychological lens. it's interesting to see how many "ultimate truths" there are to different people
I get it. As an Eastern Orthodox, I don't have any strong views on homosexuality and transgenderism in other faiths (they can do whatever they like as far as I'm concerned), but it is interesting to see how passionate people in the US are about this niche topic.
@@octavianpopescu4776 i think people generally tend to feel more passionate about the topics that personally effect them, and less about the topics that don't personally effect them
THERE IS NO QUESTION !
A thought here, it would be helpful if those who are opposed to Side B and gay identification of Christians would also refrain from identifying themselves as "straight." This is my own personal approach. When filling out forms, if options for "sexual orientation" are offered, I always choose "other" or if prompted to explain, I'll write something to the effect that "I don't believe sexual orientation is a true category of person." This helps us maintain consistency and solidarity within the body of Christ. Rather than putting the focus on certain people who have fallen outside of the "correct" category (as objects of our pity or somehow needing extra sanctification), let's put the focus on together, as Christ's body, fighting the lies of the enemy regarding human sexuality. We can of course recognize if an individual wants to bring up specific needs for prayer, but that should never put them in some separate category from all of us.
SMH many verses in the Bible shows what God thinks of Homosexuals, would they then accuse God our creator of being Homophobic? If you're christian do what the Bible instructions us to do.
Yes they would. Alphabets have claimed Jesus was trans. They’ll say anything.
knowledge If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
7:15 is basically my opinion. Also, I'm Catholic for anyone who cares.
There’s a bit of confusion between “Side B” and what is called “Side Y.” The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual attraction is “intrinsically disordered.” However, it also says that the mere temptation is not a personally culpable sin, so long as one does not dwell or act on it. The Church also bans gay men from entering the seminary. However, it does permit the use of terms like “a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction” in certain circumstances, provided that the primary identifier is Christian and not “same-sex attracted.”
That’s why believing Catholic theologians prefer the term “Side Y” over “Side B.”
Any comments about the Methodist Collegiate Church? I joined a church belonging to this group. They define marriage to be between a man and a woman, but are more accepting of LGBTQ.
As Augustine said -- "Love the sinner, hate the sin". Sin is sin, and if we accept the Bible as inerrant, we can't just define away sin. But I think that we've also let the conversation get wrongly defined by expressions such as "Gay Christian". The Devil would love to see us define ourselves that way, because it subverts our belief in God below some sinful modifier. (See C.S. Lewis's Screwtape letters for a humorous look at how this would work.) Do we wring our hands over "Klepto-Christians" or "Homicidal Christians"? I think the approach should be consistent for all of them, and other similar situations where we as God's creations suffer from the corruption of sin. As Paul's letter to the Roman's points out -- "For all of sinned and fall short of the glory of God", so let whoever is sinless throw the first stone! But on the other hand, as Timothy points out regarding the leaders of the church: " Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money." Note that Timothy doesn't say "Sinless", because indeed that is not achievable in our current existence. If there is someone who is attracted to the same sex who wants to be a leader -- who am I to judge their heart. All that I can measure are their actions. I'm sure that we have some church leaders who are drawn to taking things that are not theirs, lusted after a pretty woman who is not their wife, or may have on occasion wished violence on another -- but if they don't act on, nor preach in favor of those actions -- who am I to judge? But if it is discovered that a church leader has had an affair with someone else's spouse (husband or wife), sexually interacted with a child, stolen that which isn't' theirs, fallen into drunkeness and so on -- then they should lose their office, and supported to confront their actions and prayerfully ask for God's help to overcome those sins.
I'm side Christ
If you’re going to allow homosexuality, why won’t you allow other types of sexuality, such as polygamy?
Let's just stick to queer and straight; keep it simple and real.
Guarantee that Mormons will be the last ones to accept Polygamy again
@@kingpetra6886Polygamy has historically been far more widespread and accepted practice. It also has much more biblical support.
Gays are born gay!
Being gay is not - is not - a choice!!!
Yes, indiscriminate sexuality is a choice,
but choosing a male partner and not a woman for a gay person is not a choice!
After 88 years of life, I can say this.
Polygamy is a choice pure and simple!
These are not really comparable!
@@leoinsf
You might get it right if you live another 88 years, otherwise you'll get it right at the Gate much sooner.
This and other things are why I’m strongly considering becoming catholic or orthodox. This is so and, and real churches would never accept these things and the other heresy that has spread like wild fire in denominations. At this point it really comes down to Baptist/non denominational or Catholic/orthodox. Besides those and Pentecostalism I don’t know of any other denominations that don’t accept homosexuality at this point in some degree
I believe moderate for pups like the NALC and ECO hold to side b/y
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god.."
All this messing around with "personal identity" seems very weird to me, even outside the context of sexual ethics. If you're humble, then ideas about self-identification and self-expression should barely ever even cross your mind
There is one identity that does matter and is important if Christians are to be united, the identity that we are "Children of God".
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
As a Jewish person this debate is so interesting to me because it’s now hardly even controversial in Modern Orthodox circles whether it’s a problem for someone to identify as gay but be celibate - because our practice is tied to whether you observe the law or not rather than adherence to a particular creed or dogma. The main problem with such a practice is that it disables you from keeping the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, but some people say that being gay would put you in the category of someone unable to have children for other reasons. We had our own misadventures with conversion therapy but it’s so clear at this point that it doesn’t work that we have to find a way to adapt
Other comments are saying that this is a simple issue but for me it really underlines the theological differences between Judaism and Christianity which is interesting.
It does work when done correctly
If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
choices
2:00 - 2:05 That's where I stand
I consider myself Side A. That said, I genuinely would say I have far more in common theologically speaking with someone who is Side X, as opposed to this “Side B” nonsense. Because if we actually believe in the teachings of Jesus… our desires are not morally neutral if those desires are towards sin. We must either say that the things we desire to do are not, in fact, sinful (Side A) or that our desires are sinful (Side X). The problem with Side B (and Side Y honestly) is they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be compassionate towards gay people and acknowledge that conversion therapy is obviously ineffective, but at the same time they want to hold onto a traditional theology surrounding sex and marriage. And you can’t do both. The people with the most serious compromise are those who try to be in the “middle” and it really shows.
You can be side x but want to turn the church into a fruit salad.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
@@javiervega1065 Nah. I believe in truth. Both the claim that gay people can change their orientation as well as the claim that our desires don’t matter are false, and thus should not be promoted.
Why not just go by what the Bible says?
Don't be silly, if you follow Leviticus 20: 13, you will find yourself locked away for a very long time. You need to cherry pick verses very careful and construct your god, in your own image, from those that you select and the interpretation that you impose on them.
@@downenout8705 My church follows the Bible that God gave Moses.
@@gloriawilson3241 I have no clue as to what you mean. I am not aware of any Christian denomination that claims their Bible was written by their god and given to Moses.
If your bible doesn't contain Leviticus then great, but you still sixty five books to go.
@@gloriawilson3241 ~ Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Romans 1:26-28
=======
1 Corinthians 7:2
Mark 10:6-9
Jude 1:7
That only eliminates Side A.
As a bisexual Christian I’m side B all the way, and it’s a complex issue. People often wonder why we need to emphasize that we are not straight, but the thing is that all the trauma, difficulties and self hate we would have to go through dealing with the opinions and thoughts of others inn the Christian community, it’s really a lot. So it’s not that weird LGBTQ Christian’s are leaving churches as they have been treated poorly and often been misunderstood…we have to understand that we all are sinners and we all are on the same line in front of God, that’s what the gospel is all about! We all need grace and forgiveness from God, gays aren’t more sinful just because they have different temptation than straights. So I have no problem using bisexual Christian as a description because I would like to signal to others that no matter what you struggle with or deal with you can have a relationship with Jesus and be saved, and also create a loving and caring community for all people who have faith inn Jesus Christ!
Your belief fundamentally undermines the doctrine of sanctification. If you really believe that God condemns any same-sex relationship you may want to have, why does He not help you overcome your desires? And why are the desires themselves somehow okay? Is it okay to “look but don’t touch?”
And don’t misunderstand me - I’m not condemning you for your bisexuality. I personally am a gay man. But the issue is, if you really believe Jesus when He condemns hatred and lust along with murder and adultery, then to remain logically consistent you have to either reject that same-sex relationships are sinful, or you would have to “mortify your desires” by becoming heterosexual/asexual. Which I’m sure you know is impossible.
Please, reconsider what you believe about this issue. God is good and does not let His people anguish in sinful desires with no sign of sanctification. Your Heavenly Father loves you and wants what’s best for you. If He does not help you to overcome your desires to be in a gay relationship, it’s because there was nothing that needed to be overcome in the first place.
@@tylerjornov I’m not even SSA and what you said was very edifying for me… I struggle with p*** and other temptations to adultery with women. What you said is very true. And God lets us suffer unto sanctification.
We are all sinners and all need to sincerely repent. The issue is that some dont believe homosexual acts need repentance. The people who struggle with same sex attraction, but repent when they trip up are to be lauded for their commitment to holiness in a society that celebrates such sin.
@@tylerjornov Amen, this is a beautiful comment that sums up at least some of the conflicts I have as a gender diverse individual. God bless you.
@@tylerjornovso what ur saying is side A is correct since ‘conversion’ is so rare?
Ed Shaw is my pastor :)
A very interesting presentation. He doesn't talk about the two denominations I am most familiar with, which are Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Church in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople. I think the Catholic Church is pretty much side B. I am guessing the Orthodox one also.
I am not sure this is always helpful, but the way I have thought about this is that homosexuality for many is a problem with who God is for us, as Creator. My sexuality is one of the greatest sources of energy in my life, for good and for ill, and It brings joy, hope and purpose for me in many ways. As well as temptation, sin and despair at times. I would say that is true for most people. Yet we have a group of people who have been deprived, through no act of their own, from being able to ever see their sexual desire as almost anything but a dirty, poisoned burden. It is as if God has cursed them specifically. And it's not just the same-sex attraction, but often the other characteristics that come with it, like effeminacy in same-sex attracted men. As much as we want to stop bashing, bullying and teasing, particularly among children and the young, a young person who is that different is always going to make some of their peers feel uncomfortable and challenged. And these young people are going to be aware of that, further making them feel alienated and cursed. "My yoke is easy and my burden light" anyone? How does a loving God let this happen? Hence the God problem. The solution is never going to be "lets not talk about this and pretend it's not painful to those who experience it".
I watched the staff confront this sort of thing in my Catholic school about 40 years ago. Their response included violence, rage, denial and ineffective coping, with some of the teachers watching the painful things that had been done to them by their peers years before happening to new victims in front of them. Among these were some who would later go to jail for sexual abuse. I don't have any easy answers. But we have to talk about it. Our ultimate relationship will always be with God. There's no marriage in heaven. But we get there through the glorious, beautiful, sacred, screwed up and broken humanity that Jesus, the second person of the Trinity took on and we need the humility to make that possible for everyone, especially those on the margins.
Not exactly word for word but Pope John Paul explained it like this:: being Gay ‘IS NOT’ a sin, but practicing the same sex Gay act ‘IS’ a sin.
truth If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Catholic and Orthodox are side Y, not side B
Catholics are not Side B, they are Side Y.
The Catholic position (Side Y) can be summarized like this:
1) Homosexual tendencies are taught to be “gravely disordered.”
2) Gay men are banned from being admitted to seminaries/the priesthood.
3) Terms like “a Christian struggling with same-sex attraction” are allowable in certain contexts, provided that the primary identifier remains Christian/Catholic.
4) the mere temptation itself is not a personally culpable sin, but dwelling on or acting on the temptation is gravely sinful.
"Love the sinner, hate the Sin. This is what I learned in RCIA in 1987.
Love the religious, hate the religion.
That is not the question asked in this video. The question is what place does the same sex attracted's place in the Church.
The Bible says all are welcome in the church but it also says it’s our responsibility to point out the sin.
Which is a nasty bit of sophistry...you are still hating the person but satisfy yourself you love them while denigrating them at the same time.
At law we must Tolerate that which we find repugnant: don't have to like at. Sad that Christians can't even do that.
@@crosisofborg5524which you don't ... Well selectively point out those things that contravene your ideology while ignore almost every other commandment of God.
If I recall "if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life."
Seems like you are damned
CZcams is heterophobic
Heterophobia does not exist. You need to pretend it does to persecute gay people. Its called a ‘victim-perpetrator’ reversal, classic to all fascist ideologies
Yes CZcams is so scared of guys that wear cargo shorts and call strangers f*ggots.
This was all very informative, but at the same time a bit disappointing. You never got to side B. Am I to assume that every other denomination not mentioned is unwavering and standing on side B exclusively? An example, the LCMS, what is their stance today? I could go to their website, but I do not think that would tell the whole story. They also have pastors, elders and teachers who are gay-oriented, but possibly are not in a relationship.
IMO side B mostly come down to whether same-sex attraction is a physical or spiritual condition, or both. Note that it is logically unsound to disregard the idea simply because it is primarily used by homosexuals to justify sin. If SSA is a spiritual condition, then theological question regarding sinful desires comes in, but it is not the entire story.
Also the word "heresy" has been thrown around for some reason and that goes way too far. Depending on one's view of free grace, lordship salvation, etc. one may think a homosexual is not saved, but you certainly don't usually accuse a straight person who thinks homosexuality is not sinful of being unsaved. Therefore, even side A is not heresy, let alone side B.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
the question seems to be whether you think homosexuality is a part of who a person is or if it is just a temptation that some people struggle with (for example, as a man I struggle with lust but I do not consider it part of my identity. Someone else may struggle with temptations to steal but if they are repentant of that then do they consider thief a part of who they are?)
Yeah, but you don't feel bad when you simply find a woman attractive. Some Christian homosexuals can't do that without feeling self-rejection. For me, the problem is making it a core part of their identity. Sure, you're gay, but the same way you're blond or B+ blood type. That's not your core identity.
There's a difference between being a thief and a kleptomaniac. One term describes a behavior. The other term describes a proclivity toward a behavior. You can control being a thief, but you have to struggle with being a kleptomaniac.
choices If you are wondering about the question of whether your sexuality is a sin or not, I welcome you to consider the following thoughts for clarification. Let’s look at some basic fundamental facts based on extensive research & ongoing R&D. During fetal development a verity of biochemical agents are introduced which determine the development of the fetus. Research has shown that major agents such as testosterone & estrogen & a host of others agents determine size, weight, hair color, eye color & sexuality along with a host of other traits. Variations in the amount & timing of the introduction of these agents have a major effect in development. The fetus is a passive participant & has no influence in these matters. Sexuality, for example, & all other secondary traits are thus given to us. Well, this begs the question, is homosexuality a sin since there is no choice offered. If your religion or belief system states that it is a sin, then there can be no argument. These are the rules based on this system’s dogma. If you accept this system, you must accept the rules. This is your only choice which doesn’t include options & exceptions. Rules are rules!
If, however, you are in a belief system based on logic, reason, observation & common sense, & no reliance on spirituality or religion, the conclusion is totally different. Replacing ancient religion & mythology & superstition with reason leads to another conclusion. Leaving religions that use condemnation & ridicule for control, can be the first step in becoming a true human being minus any imposed or fabricated guilt. There exist many variations of human sexual expression as well in the animal kingdom. When you leave various ancient religious beliefs behind & chose knowledge based in research, you can see & understand the true nature of humanity. You leave ignorance, hatred, & prejudice behind. In the book Gay Straight & the Reason Why by Simon Levay PhD, explanations regarding this aspect of humanity are clearly explained & is based on research. While I am not gay, I highly recommend this book & the numerous articles. Being gay is no more of a sin than having red hair. They are both determined by genetics & clearly not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you. This is the true choice. Peace
Maybe the PCA should also prohibit terms like “Conservative Christian”, Reformed Christian”, “Calvinist Christian”, and “American Christian”. Because those terms also undermine the individual’s identity as new creations in Christ.
None of those additions are sin. Rather those are greater defining terms within Christianity. Akin to saying Dark Blue or Hot Day.
The term Gay Christian is as helpful or proper as describing oneself as Right Handed Christian or Horny Christian.
I'm Leary of any conservative Calvinist denomination. They are the most judgmental and hatefilled denominations out there.
"Gay" or any sort of homosexual term is not rightly applicable to any Christian and if such a person calls themselves that, then they are no Christian.
Clearly they’re targeting identifiers that unite sinfulness to the title and identity of “Christian”
Obviously they wouldn’t do that because it’s not believed to be a sin to be Calvinist, conservative, or reformed. Saying something like, “reformed Christian” just clearly identifies your theological standings quickly and succinctly.
@@censoredanon8928 ,
Would you say the same about a sober alcoholic? An alcoholic is always an alcoholic.
If a celibate gay person is sinning then so is a teetotal alcoholic.
A Calvinist is a heretic, I’d rather fellowship with a gay Christian than a heretic.
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Why are we trying to label all this, why does everything need a label.