BMW i3 60Ah Battery Pack Module Closeup
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- čas přidán 3. 03. 2020
- Here is part 2 of the battery dissasembly that I did. In this video I'll show you some more closeups of the module and we check it's size and weight as well as some ideas for how to use this battery for projects.
For measurements skip to 3m 44s.
There will be a part 3 where I connect the BMS (battery management system) and the 50.4v 15A charger I bought.
Link to specs shart for the 94Ah Samsung SDI cells: files.ev-power.eu/inc/_doc/at... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Hi Bjorn, thanks for the video. a great video.
Thanks Mark!
Really , good job of it!
Bjorn, thanks for that video, do you have any info how the cells are temperature controlled in this module? Is ther a gap between cells, and where does the coolant flow?
43# thanks for sharing 👌👌👌👌😎
excellent video, if you were to weld anything on that module would you discharge it first, and what welding technique do you recommend, TIG ?
How do you plan to wire these modules Bjorn? You mentioned in one of the vids that you'd be using two in your teardrop camper. Do you plan to use one BMS board per module?
I don't have any spare connectors for the main battery connectors but I figured that I could cut the negative main lead (the fat orange one) and use the connector on it to get access to the main positive post on the battery. When I cut it yesterday to connect new terminals, I discovered that the battery wire is aluminium - or at least that's what it looks like. I'm not 100% certain though - maybe you can confirm?
in several places in Europe you can upgrade the Bmw i3 battery but in my opinion the best is impexneth from the Netherlands and they have original 120ah Bmw batteries, not foldable and the price is around 6000 eur
Impexneth?
What are you trying to say?
I live in the Netherlands and I am exploring options to upgrade my 60ah..
Hi Björn. Thanks for your video.
I think the 12S configuration should be good for many things. What I remember a lifepo4 cell has 3.2V nominal and 12 cells is about 3x12V battery. 38V instead of 36. Should be good for many kool EV builds..
These are lithium ion, not lithium iron phosphate.
@@randacnam7321 are you shure? In that case 12s = 44.4V ?
@@randacnam7321 ?? Those are not mutually exclusive...lithium iron phosphate battery are also "lithium ion" it just is the type of electrode used for those ions. there are other types, such as many types of Tesla lithium ion batteries are nickel/cobalt electrodes
@@fumpercheezy Try and charge a lithium iron phosphate cell like a lithium NMC cell and you will have a bad time.
@@randacnam7321 true, but the reverse is actually far worse. They are different in their electrochemistry, so naturally the optimal and safe charge profile from the BMS will be different
Way to go... 👍👍👍 What is the full charged and discharged voltage for one cell (to get an idea of the cel chemistry) 😊
I read for a long time ago in a comparison to Tesla batteries that the 60Ah is lifepo4. Arround 3.3V nominal. Ordinary lithium batteries is arround 3.7V..
Well I actually had to google the full state of charge voltage on LiFe Po 4 and that is 3.6v. So it cant be. But i'm about 95% sure its Li-ion in these Samsung SDI 60Ah cells.
Also I have the impression that LiFe Po 4 doesnt do high discharge currents that well.
Got more info on that from a subscriber, 0% is 3.40v and 100% is 4.13v
In the cell datasheet, it specifies 2000N side force to prevent cell expansion during the charge cycle! I think this is the reason for the substantial side alu-plates. If you cut the welds, I believe you'l find the interconnect plates under tension.
Do you have a link to that datasheet Tore? Good with people who can find stuff! 🙂
And as you figured out I managed to bring the old pack home. My previous plan was actually to just donate the old pack to the junkyard cause I couldn't find a way to bring it home, and I had to "discard of it" without help from BMW. Luckily I just bought a trailer for my next project and used that to bring it home on.
@@BasinBjorn The datasheet for the 94AH : www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/pdf/Samsung_SDI_94Ah_Datasheet.pdf
And thank you for the tip on the BMS. I just bought a 94AH battery from a scrapper in Norway, that's why I'm highly educated, at least temporarily, on the intricate details on these batteries. The pack will fit in Most cars without the backseat, and even in my small car it only sticks out 30 cm behind the bumper. However, I don't have a forklift at home, so I'll dismantle it in car!! Never donate anything to a scrappy!! You can't imagine what I payed for my 2017 94AH battery, and I still need to pay Danish import tax!!!!
Repairmanual on the battery pack: www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/i01-i3-hat/
Question: In the manual all screws needed to be undone to remove the modules, including the lid, are described in the manual as M6. However in one of your other videos you mention the socket used as a T25?? In the manual they state a: "(Magnet socket) Socket SW10 inner square drive 6.3 = 1/4 inch" which on the picture looks very much like an ordinary 10 socket, though possible a Tork socket?. However the manual also says that the is an ongoing changeover to another socket?? What socket did you use again???
About the BMS (for i3 owners): In the manual, BMW tells that each individual module in the pack is identified by the car computer and performance logged during its life. So if someone is going to replace one module in their pack, the monitoring computer has to be reprogrammed with the modules 28 digit serial number to recognize the new module. That also makes my original idea of repurposing the BMS to work outside the car slim ;(
That spec shart for the cells is really good! Thanks! So I just updated my bms to 4.13v for 100% and 3.40 for 0%. Before I had 4.2 and 3.3v.
Yeah I think I got lucky while I imported my 94Ah, since it was in the car no-one would have thought that it was norweigan. And the old 60Ah in the trailer was swedish but luckily enough I didnt have to explain that.
The tools that I used for taking the battery pack apart was just basic Torx and a 10mm socket. Hard to remember, but no security bits.
@@BasinBjorn I also did my first, longer test drive on my 5 modules today: and is equally impressed by how well they balance. Before I put them in the car, I charged each module to 48.00V (by hand with a 90W scooter charger), and all cells except one, in one module, was within 5mV. Remind you, the battery pack I bought had been sitting in a Norwegian scrapyard for 1.5 years. So far, 20km today, took the pack from 3.909V to 3.75V per cell, and the meter went from 80% to 72% ( the 100mV disappeared last week at the inspection where the brake testing was done 3 times, because the inspector was hard to convince, that the rear wheel brakes are supposed to be weak, not to lock the rear wheels from high speed regen). I've set my BMS at 4.100V as 99% and 3.50V for 10%. I'm most likely too careful, but I'm treating them as babies!! Cheers.
hey! i got my hands on 2 modules, and i am going to make a 72V for an Ebike build. havent started anything yet, so im just looking for some info on the modules. did u dissect them and make another voltage and use for them? if so, u have any experience to share? :)
Hej Björn och tack för en bra video. Jag har en i3a 60Ah på g som jag funderar på att köpa som hobby /pendlarbil (7000mil). Vad tror du om att pendla 9mil på motorväg i 110 om/h när det är minusgrader? Bilen har värmeväxlare..
Tack på förhand!
Det låter inte riktigt optimalt tyvärr. I höstas/vintras körde jag Uppsala-Sthlm med fullt batteri, utan förvärmning av batteriet men förvärmd kupé, 88km och jag fick hålla ca 90 kmh och det var precis att jag kom fram. Var ca +3 ute. Dock hade jag ca 16kwh tillgängligt i batteriet, inte 18.8kwh som när bilen var ny.
Om du inte har möjlighet att köpa den med 94Ah batteriet så är REX ett bra alternativ.
Gå med i "BMW i3 Sweden" på FB, mycket info där.
Does your hoover want to be called KIT when it grows up?
Someone below said these are 5kWh modules. I don't think that's accurate. I believe they are 345 watt modules (94Ah Samsung SDI) * 12s = 4410Wh
How difficult would you think it would be to connect multiple modules together to increase your range ?
I think it would be difficult. The car needs coding to know the new capacity of the old and extended battery pack. Might need separate BMS for the new pack. And the new pack would need to be the same voltage as the original one, connected in parallel. Then there is the issue with cooling of the new pack. Let's say you have it in the trunk?
Fun idea but better to upgrade the whole pack to 120Ah, no add-ons.
i dont understand why you will share the welding connecting there are 12 batteries in series
where can i buy this cells?
Hi Bjorn.
First I think the battery chemistry is NMC Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide also lithium-mananese-cobalt-oxide (LiNiMnCo, NMC, NCM). 3.6V Nominal and 4.2V peak. At least that's what it is on the newer BWW i3 12S 5000W modules
I have an application for using one of the 12S 5000W modules and am wondering what BMS and charger you will be using on your pack? Make and model number please
Thanks
So the charger that I am using right now is this one: www.ebay.com/itm/283842660269 (50.4v 15A Lithium battery charger 12s, using 230v)
And the BMS is this one: www.ebay.com/itm/192880341024
(Smart Li-ion BMS Bluetooth 20s with screen)
Only tested them yesterday and it all works. Got it set up for 12s and my high and low voltage cut off and such. Lots of settings, and two temp meters, so really good so far.
I will do a video on the BMS & charger that I'm using.
@@BasinBjorn Thanks Bjorn. What amp version of the BMS did you select? 100A, 300A, 320A or 400A and besides price is there a disadvantage to going way over on the amps for the BMS. Guess I need to do some reading on these BMS's
@@terfer2 if I buy no-brand chinese hardware, I always double the numbers to be sure, as long as price doesn't go through the roof.
There are so many false claims on performance and so many who downright lie about capabilities.
How many amps do you plan to draw from your modules?
I haven't found discharge data from the 60Ah modules, but extrapolating data from the 94Ah modules, the 60Ah modules should have a possible 5 second discharge rate of approximately 270A (4.5C) and 30 second discharge rate of 180A (3C). I wouldn't plan on drawing more than 2C continuously.
I got the 300A BMS but I'm sure it can not handle that. My max load so far is about 15A at 50.4v, haven't had use of more than that.
And yes these specs are not really to be thrusted from no-name sellers.
can you use this for solar panels and if so how thanks
Yes but you would need panels that put out a higher voltage than the battery and a charge controller that can charge to the correct voltage. Easiest would be to not exceed the voltage of a single module, 50.4v.
Victron has a solar charger for li-ion at 50.4v
What are your vaccumcleaner doing? Have you batteryconverted it? 😁
Well it's either that or the broom stick to get rid of all that saw dust 😉. Building a camper is messy!
@@BasinBjorn I meant why it's blinking green in the video 😊
What technique do you use to join the signal wires and the busbars ?
The 12 balance wires was just soldered to the bms harness to keep all cells at equal voltage.
As far as the busbars I didn’t need to do anything except extend the negative pole with a cable. The negative side comes with a big copper piece that I carefully drilled a 8-10mm hole and bolted the negative cable to.
In a more recent project I split that 12s module into 2 x 6s. And used one of those as 3s2p to get 12v. It’s possible, but dangerous/ tricky/ not recommended.
@@BasinBjorn i don't have space so i need to use solder, i can't use screw
@@nguyentranhungnguyentranhu4719 oh, well if you mean solder the + & - then I don’t have much advise.
could those modules be used to upgrade the battery on a BMW 225xe?
Not sure what modules are used in the 225xe. But BMW’s need coding to accept the new cells / modules. You could try to ask in the “BMW i3 Modified” group on FB.
What cells are those?
Voltage/capacity per cell?
Edit: 4.15v at full charge. Prefered 4.10v.
The cells are Samsung SDI, 60Ah. Voltage is 4.2v at full charge. I'm about 2 weeks from installing the new BMS and testing the remaining capacity. That should be interesting!
Hej Björn. Jag konverterar en fyrhjuling och är intresserad att köpa två av de batteri moduler. Är de kvar!?
Hej, jag har tyvärr inga moduler kvar, alla är sålda. I värsta fall kan du ju se om ett batteri i Norge kan vara värt besväret.
www.finndel.no sök på BMW i3 -> batteripakke elbil
Så varje modul är på 48v, vet du hur många Ah de ligger på?
Säljer du batterina?
EDIT: Full voltage is 4.15-4.10v like Tore mentioned.
Fulladdade är de på 50.4v (12 celler x 4.2v per cell). Jag sålde 6 moduler i vintras för 3000 kr / st. När de var nya höll de 60Ah, har inte lyckats testa ännu hur mycket kapacitet de har kvar.
@@BasinBjorn tack för svar, visst är det BMS kopplat till varje batreri? Kan man använda orginal BMS?
skulle det inte funka att ha 2 st batterier (120ah)i serie till en 48v golfbil?
Det sitter en BMS på varje modul. Vad jag hört går den inte använda externt från bilen. Den ser även ut att behöva kommunicera med bilen för att fungera.
Men jag köpte en BMS från eBay som fungerar fint. Ja det går koppla batterierna i serie eller parallellt.
@@BasinBjorn Maximum, never to exceed, end of charge voltage for the Samsung SDI cells is 4.15V!!! Settle for 4.1V to counter voltage drop along the sense Wires. Also they have a lower bottom limit of 2.7V. Here's the spec sheet from Samsung: files.ev-power.eu/inc/_doc/attach/StoItem/7213/Samsung_SDI_94Ah_Datasheet.pdf You need a better BMS, with adjustable parameters, not that they are much more expensive these days from China, but your cells are expensive, and they deserve it. BMW has calculated that they will last 21.7 years in an i3 80% capacity (so they claim). They have almost no self discharge, and wear very little with age. So you are going to live as long with these batteries as your kids. Take good care of them!
is it possible to remove cells from individual packs without harming them?
I couldn't really say, I believe that the aluminum case could be opened by just cutting the welds on the outside. But I would not be surprised if the cells are glued together.
@@BasinBjorn so I said he'll with it and went full out on one of thease 8s packs, you have to do a lot of super careful cutting and grooving with a grinder, I can confirm the cells are glued togather but the use of a large but thin putty knife and a solvent or oil can safely break the glue I used wd40 to deactivate the adhesive as I carefully advanced the 4 inch putty knife between the cells I was able to convert 2 packs to 7s 2p with 4 undamaged Sepperated 35 ah cells....
It's also possible to trim and reglue the protective plastic and weld the aluminium keeper plates back to togather if one has the skill and means to bond aluminium you end up with a restored pack
@@BasinBjorn I'm still working out how to get electrical connections to the terminal posts.... Probly pulse tig welding is likely the only way
@@oceanhouse8080 Well that's not bad! Good to know, thanks! Sounds like it's totally doable then.
You should leave a link here if you end up posting any photos/ videos on that.
So what kind of balancer are you using with these? One guy made some code for the opensource SIMPbms, so he has a display readout: www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/bmw-i3-bms.198547/
I am using this BMS:
www.ebay.com/itm/193561057261
It's a kinda cheap Chinese one, I got the 300A one since they have to be exaggerating the numbers and I figured that way I might hold up for what I need.
It has Bluetooth and a display to show all the stats. And through the App/Bluetooth I can set number of cells, how high to charge, how low to discharge, 4 temp sensors and stuff like that.
I've used it with a 50.4v 700w / 15A charger that plugs in to 230v. Works good so far but I'm still only on my... 3rd cycle.
When I get the time I'll make a video on that BMS, wiring, functions and such.
I guess it could be bypassed as far as discharge, and only used for charging. If needing higher amps.
Coding, circuitboards, electrical components/ schematics and that is way out of my league.
@@BasinBjorn I need to run 72S! In a car, so I don't need the power cutoff, just the over/under voltage alarm signal and voltage, temp readout, to disable the pack through the main contactors, and some sort of balancing. I found one Chinese manufacturer. However He only sells samples of two! However this is not an insurmountable technical challenge, and a modular design where I use 6*12S BMS in series will work fine, I just want the parameters to be adjustable, the trace for triggering the cutoff FETs on a regular BMS, can be used as a signal line for my main contactors. NB.: The original black box BMS from BMW, only use a 75mA equalizing current to balance the cells, so it doesn't take much to keep these well behaved cells in order, as they virtually have no self discharge. #2 Nb.: Debugging the BMW charger, someone figured out that the i3 only charges the cells to 4.09V and discharge is limited to 3.4V. This is likely both for longevity and as a hidden reserve to counter aging. So if it is actually possible to get name plate capacity out of the cells for 21.7 years in a car, as BMW claims, is to be seen.