Tournament B. S...The Fleche
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
- Coach Lee, with some help from Coach Vier, looks at the martial validity of a popular sport fencing technique that is increasingly appearing in HEMA tournaments...the fleche.
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The Fleche is not an action of the sword, a fleche is an action of footwork. You can throw a failed cut from any foot position. This argument is weak.
I agree. The fleche is a thrusting action with the body behind the extended arm (and thus the point) as one explodes forward off the front foot (running past the opponent). It could easily pierce someone caught flat-footed with less of a chance of penetrating a foe moving away from you. Of course, if one just happens to step forward (into the fleche), then one could possibly get transfixed.
Besides, it is of my opinion that tatami cutting and sparring are two very different things. You never make a 100% super technical cut with perfect edge alignment while trying to score points 😂
We have a phrase applied to techniques we don't like losing to.
"Parry that s***"
Exaclty
That's not what a fleche is... A fleche is a particulat footwork maneuver, and it shows in longsword & messer HEMA sources as well (Talhoffer is one example). And a fleche generally included a thrust, not a cut. As for that cut - most tourneys around the world won't count it as valid. Neither did the tournament which you showed as an example.
If you are going to criticize something, at least learn what it is.
speaking as fléche-enjoyer, which longsword sources show it? I'd love to see this and add it to my repertoire of argument
Your inability to perform a technique does not invalidate its utility. Also, fleche is a thrusting term. For cuts, there is a ballistic passing step. This is also perform wildly different than shown in this video.
People do throw cuts with the fleche in saber tournament. For thrusting, no.1 HEMA ranking in rapier, mr Robert Childs said the fleche is not suitable for martial context so he doesn't use it and teach it. Because unless you hit that magic off button on their face or throat, you basically run the blade through the other guy, or worse, missed the thrust altogether, the whole thing will be a tangled mess for the judges to see in tournaments setting, or 2 impaled dead bodies in a real fight.
@jaketheasianguy3307 People using a good technique in a bad way does not invalidate a good technique. Not going to get into the historical evidence of fleche actions. Different argument, different day. Dueling sabre is it's own thing and doesn't have the same context or goals.
@PoorMansHEMA it's not a good technique. Not martial. Not combative. Useless in a "fight" in sport fencing which is not HEMA it works. It's like using a screw driver to drive a nail in. Not the right tool not the right application. Does not belong in combat
Appeals to authority to some dude, "martiality," comparing sports and real combat, man. It's almost like it's a proper HEMA "discussion."
@@stephenkime5946 If only Talhoffer didn't show it in his longsword section :D
As the main sport application that preserves the historical passing step, it is invaluable even if not designed for cutting Japanese medium
What the absolute fuck 🤣🤣🤣
> Does the wrong technique in mid-air cutting only to the target with no follow-through *in fucking flip-flops*
"Doesn't work"
"Great Cutter"
Any cut will be bad if you pull the strike, I don’t know what they think this proves.
It isn't clear to me that the clip shown as an example was a fleche, btw; the stance is not the traditional for starting the fleche
Next video: how the draw cut would never work as it lacks deep penetration
I am guessing the Blood and Soil interpretation of "Scheissen" (shooting) is just as bad.
Even when you do thrusting techniques people from b&i can't thrust?
Weird but okay.
He's not even fletching properly. His hand is late, and he's throwing a weak cut as opposed to a thrust. My coach does it better and it hits like a train.
My understanding of the fleche is that it is a thrusting move, not a cutting move.
It's a footwork move, generally with a thrust.
@@borislavkrustev8906 Yes, I see it in epee alot, but it is illegal in Sabre (although Sabre has the flunge)
It’s illegal in Olympic saber now, but was the meta up until the 80s. So meta in fact that it dominated the move set of fencers, leading to its ban.
@@matthewpham9525 Sure, but it is not a meta in HEMA. And it was banned in 1988, which makes the claim that said guy fenced for 33 years and won a medal with a fleche quite confusing - by his math he started fencing in 1991.
@@borislavkrustev8906
Yes, was replying to the other guy. Good to point out the math doesn’t math though, in addition to everything else.
Should there be a debate about the validity of x technique in a competitive context? Sure, maybe.
Are these arguments presented in a solid, consistent, logical manner? Absolutely not.
Would a video of someone cutting tatami with a "cutting fleche" make all such strikes valid for all tournaments?
You're just mad because it's defensive enough to protect against revenge afterblows.
This was a weak argument and generally a pointless video.
It sgould be thrust in your example, not a cut
I agree with what you're saying but it would be nice if you tested it as a thrust instead.
I think the real argument here is against a short, quick cut. These are low power and not effective against armor, but it does not take much to injure a bare weapon hand or brow enough to make continuing the fight very difficult. I also agree with the many folks that have already said it. The fleche is devastating with a thrust.
What is this comparison for?
Nice experiment! It's a good demonstration of why hit quality counts and taps shouldn't be scored.
I would really like to see a thrust though as that is what the fleche is used for in sport fencing. I use it a lot in historical fencing and it's very effective to land a thrust. I also do it with tatami. I'll try to make a video.
Keep up the good work
Who’s to say you can’t cut strongly with a flèche? The coach is deliberately and inadvertently holding back his cut, and it’s clearly unnecessary. Even if for whatever reason, you CANNOT follow through with a cut, a thrust works just fine with a flèche.
argument very poorly made. Not a technique i use but , as many people pointed out in the comments, the technique in display here is bad, and the arguments are also bad. It seems totally possible to argument against Fleche from historical perspective, but the way it's done here just does not make a lot of sense.
that video should really be taken offline while you guys work on the question because, at this point, it's really embarassing coming from experienced fencers in my opinion
This is complete nonsense.
Interesting.
exact reason i stopped traditional fencing, when dudes started using pistol grips and wrist flicks i left, tournament garbage
When did you quit, 1890?? 💀
@@josiasarcadia 1892 actually
Is the flèche a "playing the rules not the game" petty move ? Yes.
Is mat cutting a standard for good and proper technique ? No.
A fleche is not "petty" or "gaming" any rules. It just requires extreme commitment and therefore can be a terrible tactical decision at the wrong time. People using a good technique in a bad way does not invalidate it.
Hey at least being half right is still an improvement over the video.
@@PoorMansHEMA What is the H in HEMA standing for ?
@benjaminhaupais6470 I am not going to debate the historical efficacy of the fleche. It has been done to death by better fencers and historians than both of us.
@@PoorMansHEMA I'm not talking about efficacy (at all, I even pointed that cutting mat is not a show of efficacy). I heard the Blood and Iron's video not as a rant about the flèche but about its overuse in HEMA tournaments (because the ruling allow it and make it a winning tactic, counter to more sources based moves ; which is a petty strategy ). Why calling it HEMA if we're not, at least, trying to simulate the supposed moves Historically associated to a weapon ?