Tournament B.S. #2
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Coach Lee looks at more Tournament B.S. Today our focus is on tip taps, touches, and insufficient contacts and we also address a few points made by @scholagladiatoria • Were We Wrong About FL...
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And yet again Lee Smith shows an exchange from a tournament as an example of "sport fencing", where the hit was not scored by the judges and didn't stop the action at all. The exchange at 0:55 was never counted as a hit.
Cherry-picking your examples is a classic example of not having any actual arguments.
The following exchange that he shows was also ruled no quality in the tournament as well. This video is such a joke lol
@@TheMissingno Grasping at straws at it's best.
You know full well that light taps under the hands were consistently scored in that same tournament. My wife had at least 3 points scored against her in this exact way. Presumably because the girl performing those taps was a student of one of the organizers of that tournament, who had taught her to do that exact move and was judging that fight.
You say that you hate bullshit, but we can now see it is done quite selectively.
@@TheApocalypticKnight Which same tournament specifically? Cause you weren't at the one I quoted.
Also, what might look like light taps to you can have devastating results, especially on hands. Another reason why demonstrating in tatami mats on a stand is a pointless comparison. Arms and hands are part of a solid structure, they don't flop around.
@@TheApocalypticKnight Sounds like a skill issue
I've seen enough broken fingers caused by tipytap undercuts to have 100% certainty that tiptaps are martialy valid
That was my thought exactly. I started out with hickory swords and very little protection. Even light accidental hand boops were enough to end a fight.
LMFAO at you guys trying to call out Matt Fuckin Easton on his cutting.
Matt used wood as well!
Former EMT here.
That little knick, on the hands with even a dull weapon causes more than enough pain to override senses and cause a panic in a person. On the hands it can also cause issues with grip, numbing the middle and ring fingers. A little blood getting on the the palm and it causes issue with grip.
A little knick like that on the arms can create a bit more blood flow and cause significant pain esp if it on the more sensitive side of the arm.
On the face, it creates a lot of blood flow. Of it's above the eye its blinding. Getting it in the eye is obviously a real fight ender. Top of th scalp, less so but still a lot of blood.
So a little cut no bigger than an inch and no deeper than 1/8th of an inch is enough to be a fight ender. Ive seen it in real life. Ive experienced low powered taps in full Spes gear as well and decided I am damn glad the swords arent sharp and im wearing full PPE
You guys and Shad should colab, both groups have big passive aggressive and "how dare you dosagree witg me" energy.
What I don't like is the aggressive, confrontational tone to this video. Like it's a beef response video or something... like, you guys were sitting around haing some beers and decided to get the swords and mats out... Chill.
Now Matt - who is a classical fencer, historian and decade long HEMA-instructor, antic arms dealer, curator and advisor to film productions and museums and collection and who works with Windlass et al. to build very good replica and organizes one of Europe's biggest HEMA-events talked about
1. Using these cuts in unamoured fighting and why you wouldn't want to be hit by one (just imaging getting your thumb lobbed off or a cut above or in your eye brow)
2. The bad avaiabilty of tatami mats (among other things) in GB after Brexit
3. Cutting through wood - which he also demonstrates (and thus shows, what might happen to fingers or hands hit like this - asks police forces or ambulance crews, what they see after machete or knife fights)
4. That he hit through often, because he trains like this
I think your criticism doesn't give the complete vid by Matt enough credit
In the cutting world, Easton is an absolute nobody.
Lee is a multiple world champion in cutting and one of the best cutters the world has ever seen. Some of the cuts, with which he has won international competitions, have never been surpassed.
It really is like comparing Messi with a kid that just started playing football in his back yard.
Oh, and there is a reason someone chooses to cut bottles as a demonstration of cutting technique. I'll let you guess it for yourself.
@@TheApocalypticKnight obviously you didn't really watch the vid, neither my comment - and possibly no real accounts of cuts on person from crime or ambulance reports. Or about Schmiss-acquisition in fraternities. And although why in a country with half-empty grocery shelves after Brexit tatami mats might be hard to come by.
Matt is always open for discussions - so discuss it with him on his comment section instead of dissing him here.
@@KlausBeckEwerhardyI read your comment and saw the video, so your presumptions simply give away your prejudice.
Also, mats being expensive due to Brexit and this constituting an excuse as to why someone uses water bottles and thin sticks to prove a point in regard to cutting is quite original and inventive!
As for discussing cutting with Easton, I tend to discuss all matters with experts such as Lee, if it is about cutting a medium with sharp swords or swordsmanship in general. Notice the difference between actual experts and people who can only pose as experts to the absolutely ignorant masses!
@@TheApocalypticKnight
1. Winning competitions is different from winning real fights (many competition fighters or MA-trainers learned this when getting into a street fight.
2. You haven't said anything to Schmiss (mensur) fencing, which I mentioned two times or to injury reports after knife or machete fights. (or even after stupidities like: I didn't think it would injure him/her, when doing it like this). Becomes even more interesting when the injured party had been moving into the direction the slash had been coming from).
3. Another expert one could ask about the effects of flicks or fleche on flesh (and bones) would be butchers or slaughterers - or people who make vids about executing people with swords 🙄
@@TheApocalypticKnighthere some more thoughts by Matt about cutting :czcams.com/video/R55Un3rLuDg/video.htmlsi=E7f8xXY4XRdMb8vc
We had the same issues with kendo as opposed to kenjitsu, which utilizes battojitsu (cutting of goza or bamboo targets) as part of their practice. Modern Kendo has gotten away from actually cutting in their strikes.
Lee, I think you are wrong. Matt and you were talking different things. Matt stated clearly that you need to follow through (aiming pass the intended target) to be able to deliver effective cut. The question was whether you need to have big motion.
Number of people demonstrated you don't need big motion. That was the point.
Even for tips/taps, as long as it is sharp sword and you aim and hit target properly (like Matt and others demonstrated), you will do enough damage to soft target.
Yeah, this whole is a flipping mess. Matt misintepretted the of this group cus Matt didn't do that ramning or rubbing the edged along a target, his did wrist rotation strikes, and know is going into a silly argument only big motions should be valid and discrediting Matt rep as a instructor. Wth? This is blatant is like they are doing for views? Did the youtube algorithm change?
One of Liechtenauer's first lessons: "Don't shun the tag hits."
Don't shun them, but as scoring actions they might not be scored as fight-enders. At least the way I understand it from my club - get the tag hit, but ideally as a transitory hit before striking something better (unless judges break the action too soon).
I don't often see the so-called light tippy taps in tournament footage tbh. Most of them look like they have more commitment or structure behind them. Where it is shown in examples here, most are to the hands which...
Yeah, it'd be a fight ender. Light taps to hands are entirely valid. czcams.com/video/Ffqpr6WPkqg/video.html
Light taps elsewhere, probably not so valid - and if scored as valid, make a lot of the pushing in to grapple moves appear suicidal when they really aren't. But to the hands, totally valid.
it's the 13th lesson, "czu kopff czu leibder czeck nit vormeyd". BUT it can be translate as "don't mind receiving one" as well as "don't avoid doing one" AND Liechtenauer's recital is stated as cryptic to begin with so it might not be litteral. Furthermore this "lesson" doesn't seems to be explained in the several comments of the recital. So 50/50.
@@DarkwarriorJ And that is why most tap hits Lee gives as examples in his videos were actually not scored by the judges. But for some reason he avoids mentioning that fact...
I've never been able to figure out where Forgeng got "tag hits" as a translation for Zeckrür from. I've been through multiple ENHG dictionaries, including several only available in German, and my hunch is it was speculative based on similarity to Zeck ("tick").
@@KnightedDawn I'm so glad for the work translators are doing but they almost never justify their choices, don't seems to really know about fencing traditions, or worse are doing HEMA themselves and force their interpretation of the technique into the translation.
I'm curious when the first successful instructors are going to leave again.
Oh yeah, they will for sure
These guys seem like the kind of fencers that aren’t much fun to fight against, because they think every cut needs to be able to cut you in half. Like bro you can get your points without actually killing me in the process.
There are some rules in some tournaments that a sword has to make a certain degree of arc to count as a hit, so there's a degree of intentional accuracy, and power behind the attack, but as you said, it doesn't have to be the force of cutting something/one in half.
Hi sir I have a question I often fight with my friends and they make me step backwards while they walk to me and that puts me in a bad position as we don’t have the biggest space and I often have to turn my back to run away so I get some space do you have so tips for this?(i use a katana)
Unsubbed. Too much whining
Just like in the gun debate over round caliber, it's about shot placement and how much stopping power (what will finish the fight faster) you are looking for. Tip/flick cuts are valid to specific targets (arguable depending on weapon too so thrust centric baldates may not tip cut as well as a messer or falchion) Remember there is no such thing as a bad weapon just a bad target for that weapon.
EDIT: post was too long, if you are really interested in reading the dissertation click in edit history. The TL;DR is fine4
Did he cut the piss bottle in his thumbnail from the video?
If it doesn't do anything, then do it on a live target.
All I can say is that In the Swedish Hema Scene, Lee Smith is viewed as a bad joke, we laugh and cringe.
This was disappointing, didn’t see a single person volunteer to get their hands hit by a tippy tap cut nor their face… same goes for an attack delivered with a flèche.
Ah, what about getting a 'Schmiss' in university fencing?
Matt Easton used wood as well!
🤣😅
People are as much tatami matts as sticks are humans. Dynamic tension is weird. Would you spar with sharp swords if the rule was fast flick cuts only. According to you it would do nothing so not dangerous.I dont fully disagree either as people often try to act like swords are lightsabers but come on Lee. What is a tatami mat other than a rolled up Japanese rug.
From what I understand, the point is the fliche cuts being done in tournaments would not have any stopping power. It's not that it would do no damage at all. If someone delivered a fliche cut that way with a sharp sword, it wouldn't end the fight. You can cut them at the same time, or deliver an after blow, and would come out on top every time. Or even just grapple them. It simply doesn't make sense to count it as a point in a hema tournament. Also, have you ever tried cutting tatami mats? They are quite helpful in teaching you to make a good cut. Though the material is not analogous to flesh, you can gauge how good your cut was better than cutting plastic on a bottle. Or snapping a stick. Not sure why you would get hung up on that. But it's besides the point.
@@optimistic5712 Yeah tatami is great. I also like to occasionaly spar without protection because I feel it makes it very different. Im not saying that to be cool and I dont really reccomend it tbh its dangerous It doesnt take much to cause a good deal of damage that may or may not end the fight. But could still require a hospital. If you stay safe while doing it then do it. Also Id say a stick is more akin to bone than tatami is flesh.
@@optimistic5712
I can see the argument against flick cuts (not to be confused with flèches), but at the same time, would anyone here be ok with receiving one? They’re one of those things you neither want to give nor take IMO.
@@optimistic5712 There is no such thing as "fleche cuts". A fleche is a footwork maneuver that most often concludes in a thrust.
Also, tournaments don't require stopping power necessarily, and they regularly allow for afterblows for that reason.
@@borislavkrustev8906 Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up, this video is the first time I heard the word fleche. When I say stopping power, I mostly mean if it was a real duel, it would incapacitate the oponent. That's why I feel like those flick cuts shouldn't count for points. Sense to me, sparring is meant to imitate the real thing. Not that I have a problem with more sport like fighting, both are enjoyable. Afterblows feel ok to me. Cause I feel like it's possible someone can finish a cut after taking a solid hit. I like how it emphasizes the importance of guarding after striking to me.
xDDD
It's not HEMA but it might be usefull to consider the point of view from someone that actually did cut and slash at an armed opponent : "To cut and to slash are two different things. Cutting, whatever form of cutting it is, is decisive, with a resolute spirit. Slashing is nothing more than touching the enemy. Even if you slash strongly, and even if the enemy dies instantly, it is slashing. When you cut, your spirit is resolved. You must appreciate this. If you first slash the enemy's hands or legs, you must then cut strongly. Slashing is in spirit the same as touching. When you realize this, they become indistinguishable. Learn this well." Musashi _ gorin-no-sho _ water
Cut = hewing a tree
Slash = slicing cheese.
We forget tournament fighting is based on what royals did. They weren't there to cut eachothers arms off. They wanted small cuts that were supposed to be small scars
just unsubscribed. Tired of this ego bullshit. That's not a surprise seeing Lee is well know for being a passive agressive bully in the tournament scene but well, one could think he would get better with age. I guess not. Bye ^^
Matt Easton criticizing Lee Smith with regards to cutting is the equivalent of a kid who's been doing BJJ for a year criticizing Gordon Ryan.
Unless you're one of the many thousands who know nothing about cutting, it is simply hilarious!
Matt is one of the earlier generation hema people. I think in one of his video, he claimed he was amount the people who came up with the name HEMA. Matt belongs to top/elite hema instructors.
Argument from authority. And an authority based on winning a handful of US tournaments, half of which judged by his students.
Smith demonstrated he knows nothing about what a fleche is, nor about how cut quality is judged in the very same clips he chose as his examples.
@@borislavkrustev8906 lol you really have no idea how cutting competitions work, if you think he won because of "his students judging", which usually wasn't even the case.
You need to be able to perform perfect, visible cuts on thick, unforgiving medium. It is not a HEMA competition.
@@TheApocalypticKnight I was talking about his general HEMA competitions, not cutting competitions specifically.
Either way, his skills in cutting competitions don't matter at all to the arguments he is making.
"You need to be able to perform perfect, visible cuts on thick, unforgiving medium."
You need to be able to perform a perfect cut against a stationary object, with preparation and a specifically chosen sword, sharpened for the purpose.
@@borislavkrustev8906 which, as you guys discovered recently, is not easy to do at all. Yes, I saw the video you posted.
Lee consistently performs perfect, clean and MULTIPLE cuts, sometimes before the cut piece even drops to the ground, on similar mediums for decades!
I thought that'd give you some appreciation for his skill.
As for the competitions, Lee was Axel's arch nemesis in America, when Axel was in his prime. You can not in any seriousness doubt Lee's skill in a swordfight either. He's one of the few people who have beaten Axel in a longsword final ever.