Converter Upgrade - Part Two - WFCO WF-8735-P to WF-8740-AD - 2015 Tab Max-s Trailer
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- čas přidán 22. 04. 2022
- This is the second video of the set, describing the actual removal of the old WF-8735-p, installation of the new WF-8740-AD, and test. This is the first installation of equipment to upgrade my 2015 Tab Max-s trailer to a Lithium battery. The next two pieces of equipment I will be installing will be the battery itself, and a DC to DC charger so that my tow vehicle alternator will play nice with that new lithium battery.
Enjoy, and stay tuned.
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I bought WF-8740-AD on Amazon, and because I didn't buy it from my RV dealer (+200$), he refused to install it.
Electricity and I are good unknown neighbors. 😁
Well, I did it on my Prolite Evasion! 👍
Gee! I'm proud of myself! 🏆
Thank you so much for the video! Very generous of you! 🥀
Thanks for sharing
Thanks for one of the most straightforward, logical and understandable videos that I have seen for a while.
This is one of the best descriptions of a procedure I've seen. Good Job!
Thanks for the video, and also for the thorough answers to our questions. In particular, your answer re soldering was the most definitive that I’ve seen. Much appreciated.
Glad it helped
Great video! Just completed swap out 2 hrs start to finish. Really great information and awesome tips. Thank you for your insight and expertise
Glad I could help.
Thanks for that. When it comes to any type of electrical my brain goes into shutdown mode, unles it just wire to wire swap ...this helps if ever I want to upgrade like you did. I also watched your vid on using multimeters. Again that helps and I have to keep referring to it because as I said whenever I deal with elctrical I seem to alway get mixed up.... much appreciated
Thanks for this great video! Very clear :)
glad it helped
I am livid about what happened to me on this swap. This is ABSOLUTELY NO FAULT OF YOURS! AGAIN, A GREAT VIDEO. I bought the same model WFCO 8740 AD from Boat and RV Accessories. I tried multiple times to get the unit to switch from led acid to lithium charging to no avail. Called customer service and confirmed I was doing what I should to make it happen. They asked me to read a label on the door of the unit with the firmware information on my unit. They said the fix was to complete the warranty return paper work on the website, email it to request a return, and I would receive instructions to send it back for a swap for a unit with the latest firmware. This swap took me several hours. Yes, the second time will go faster, but I still think it will be a two hour job. So frustrating.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Can you please report what version of firmware your failing unit has, and what version of firmware WFCO is saying will fix this issue?. It will really help others in the future if they could ask about converter firmware versions before purchase.
On my end, I'll start some research into what version I received, and wouldn't it be cool to find a way to do an "update" if possible.
Hang in there.
@@tabtrailerupgradesandmaint2923
I have V1.17. WFCO tech support said I needed 1.19. I have seen a video from WFCO about a "trick" to get the unit to switch to lithium mode, although it was a different model. Tried that. Nothing. Took my battery charge down again yesterday and tried charging overnight and I still have the green light on the circuit board (supposed to be blue for lithium). I also have read comments that WFCO walked people through getting it to switch. One person was instructed to put a 40 amp fuse at the battery instead of 30. When I phoned, WFCO asked what I had tried, asked me for the firmware version, then told me to go to the website and fill out the warranty return forms and email them back.
@@tabtrailerupgradesandmaint2923 Update: I used the trailer for a brief camping trip after Thanksgiving. WFCO has sent me a return authorization label and I will be removing the unit and returning it today. They are going to update the firmware there and ship it back. I was hoping they would just send a new unit with current firmware while my faulty unit passed in the opposite direction being returned. I have been assured of a quick turn around and don't have any camping planned for the next two weeks anyway. As I said in my earlier note: my firmware is V 1.17 and I am expecting to receive V 1.19.
did you received the updated unit ? Is it working ? I'm having the same trouble with 1.17 on my new RV..... @@tombrooks5777
Thank you for the detailed video. Methodical and clear. I have a 2021 T@B - the year before the LI converters were used by nuCamp and therefore I need this converter as well.
Did you read or hear of the possibility that the charging wire between the converter and the battery needed to be upgraded?
Glad you liked the video.
Yes, it is a good idea to upgrade the power cable to the battery.
in my installation I am going in stages....
1. upgrade the converter.
2. upgrade the cable in the tow vehicle.
3. install a dc to dc converter charger for the tow vehicle.
4. replace the lead acid battery with a lithium battery.
I am presently on stage 3.
When I get to stage 4, I will upgrade all the cables in the tub. Including the power and ground cable running back to the Tab converter.
Until I actually do that swap in step 4,, the existing cables are fine for the lower current demands of charging my existing lead acid battery.
Note that when I do upgrade the cables, I'm not planning on "replacing" them. I am just going to lay in a "Parallel" set of ground and positive cables, right along side the originals.
Consolidating the fuses of course.
Thanks for this video it's very helpful. I'm making the same conversion. What is the wire with the orange wire nut that came with the new converter all about and where does it go? Thanks much
The converter power supply itself needs to be connected to a circuit breaker to get power. That wire nut allows you to "branch off" from one of the circuit breakers in use by one of the other circuits in your trailer, without having to have a dedicated circuit breaker for the converter power supply. Your existing converter has the same thing. Just make notes and duplicate how the original was connected.
Is DC circuit 6 for the battery? I had switched over my fuses from my 8735-P to the new 8740-AD. The 30 amp fuse blew when it switched over to lithium mode. I’m wondering if it has to be a 40 amp fuse since the new converter has 40 amp output. That would make sense, right?
Great video! Very much appreciate this and the detail. Do you remember where you got the new converter? I’ve looked on Amazon and didn’t find the WFCO WF-8740-AD model. 😕
This is where I bought mine online....
www.boatandrvaccessories.com/collections/brand-wfco/products/wfco-wf-8740-ad-converter-charger-w-distribution-center-40a-auto-detect-6-circuits
Thanks for the great videos. Why did you feel the need to go from 35 amps to 40 amps?
The main reason was I found it on sale, cheaper than any 35 unit I could find. And having ability to charge my battery faster, while running other devices was a plus.
Some FYI information about a converter...
The converter has a maximum current output. In my case that is 40 Amps. The converters FIRST job is to supply current to the trailer devices. It's SECOND job is to charge the battery. What that means is that if you are running things in your trailer which are consuming say 20 Amps, that only leaves 20 Amps for charging.
Not so much an issue for a lead acid battery, because it doesnt accept that much current, but a lithium likes as much charging current as it can get.
Thanks for the positive feedback.
I swapped my WF-8735-p for a WF-8735-AD using your excellent videos as guides. How long before your WFCO Auto detect converter-charger detected battery chemistry and changed to a lithium charging profile? I've discharged my Renogy 100Ah bluetooth lithium iron phosphate battery to 70%, 60%, 50% and 8% but it's still using the lead-acid profile. Any insights? Thanks!
I have the same issue and customer service has been terrible. They tell me just send it back. Did you get yours to switch over?
I have heard that with some brands of lithium batteries, the converter has some difficulty autodetecting.
Here is a video from WFCO that explains how to force the switchover. The video is not for the 8700 series converters, but I suspect the process is the same and might help you.
czcams.com/video/-pFuVnUsPz4/video.html
Excellent video. Thanks! A couple questions, But first, I’m hoping the wedding and boon-docking went well. In my camper (Taxa Cricket) I would have to remove the stove top and sink to gain top side access as you had. In your opinion, is top side access essential? Secondly, I don’t see your Li battery install video. WFCO notes that you have to discharge the battery entirely before the AutoDetect function can assess the battery type during recharge. Could you detect the blue LED without disassembling the unit (as was the case in the WFCO video)?
The wedding went great.
My wife and I stayed with the Tab for four days and nights, (no solar, fridge on propane) and left with about 50% charge left in our new battery.
As far as access goes, each trailer model and year is a bit different. I can't really say that you will or will not have trouble with yours. Top and back access to mine made it easy.
Yes, I did have to dran the battery to about 10% remaining, unplug the converter from street power, disconnect, then reconnect the street and battery, in order that it trigger the lithium mode. Kind of a pain.
Yes, when it does go into lithium mode, the blue LED is plenty bright, and can be seen with just the access cover on the front just tilted open.
Finally here is video #7 in the series, the replacement of the lead battery with the lithium.
czcams.com/video/m_YtpIPcyg4/video.html
Thank you. Glad all went well! My next puzzling question pertains to the 7 pin lead. I’m adding a DC-DC Charge converter at the battery (which in my case is inside the rear of my van) and running independent 6awg wires to the camper battery compartment. My question is really two questions. First, do I need to disconnect any wires from the 7 pin connector? Secondly, where and to what are the new 6awg wires are to be connected? I am installing the WFCO 8740-AD (replacing a WF-8740-P). I just don’t where the preexisting battery charge wires are within the mix. Does my question make sense?
BTW I am assuming that the new 6 awg cables connect directly to the Li batteries, but I didn’t want to assume. It occurred to me that my question (pertaining to this connection) might seem daft, but again, I don’t want to assume anything. I’m still in the “head time” phase of this job. I haven’t looked under the “hood” yet, so I don’t know where the 7 pin wiring actually connects.
@@gtguild
The new heavier gauge wires from the tow vehicle connect to the "input" of the new charge controller. The output of the charge controller connects to the new battery.
The charge wire within the 7 pin connector must be disconnected.
In my installation I use that charge wire as the method to tell my new charge controller wheather the engine is running or not.
@@tabtrailerupgradesandmaint2923 Perfect! That’s exactly what I thought. Thank you so very much!! Wanted to get a diagram all drawn up before the install. Now I know exactly what to do.
A great video!!! My converter in my 2015 TAB S Max just died. I contacted the TAB NuCamp company, and they said they are currently putting in the WF-8735-AD in their TAB 320's. It was so helpful to read these comments on the importance of specifying the newer "firmware" in the power center you upgrade to. I want to make sure I get the newer V.19 (or possibly even the V.20??) firmware in the power center I purchase. Now that the latest version of the firmware is available (the V.20), would that be the best one to get? I still have a lead acid battery in my 2015 TAB S Max but would really like to change over to lithium at some point. Would the V.20 firmware then be best? Is the company you ordered your power center from able to determine which firmware version they send out when you place your order?
I am wo during how the battery type auto detect feature is working. Have you had any issues with either battery type you have used?
The converter decides what kind of battery it is connected to by how much current the battery pulls when it is charging.
A lead battery pulls a moderate amount if current. A lithium battery draws a lot of current.
Some lithium batteries have charge controllers built into them that can sometimes limit the charge current, and fool the converter into thinking it is a lead acid battery.
I have had no difficulty with it, after I let my battery cycle once.
Was your DC red and white input from the battery in that bundle with all the DC out wires?
The red and white wires (12v and ground) were a heavier gage wire than the rest. The white was by itself, and the red was bundled with the others.
Could one disconnect the converter wires and power them off a transfer switch that way when you are powering off an inverter. You are "charging your batteries" off battery power?
I'm not understanding your question, could you restate it ?
Thanks.
Did you do a video on setting up the auto detect for lithium batteries? There's a process for getting the audio detect to recognize the lithium.
Green lights next to the fuses is for lead acid, blue lights are for lithium batteries.
I just installed mine and ready to set up for lithium.
Please let me know if you have a minute.
Thank you
The auto-detect feature would be more accurately called "auto-learn".
The charger in the converter learns what kind of battery it is connected to by watching the battery charge from dead.
A lithium battery pulls more current from the charger than does a lead battery while charging.
For most lithium batteries the process is simple.
1. Disconnect your trailer from street power, and tow vehicle.
2. Turn on a device that draws a lot of current. Your refrigerator set to battery mode is a good choice.
3. Take a break and let the lithium battery drain all the way down to zero
4. Turn off the refrigerator.
5. Plug the trailer back into street power, and let the battery charge all the way up.
That should allow the charger to learn what type of battery it is connected to.
Note that some batteries require this process to be run twice.
Safe travels.
@@tabtrailerupgradesandmaint2923 Unfortunately, it is a horrible Auto-detect feature and I have a brand new 2024 NoBo 16.1 with the WF 8735-AD-GE(GE is for the Slimline breakers) Multiple attempts at getting the charger to "see" it as lithium failed. WAFCO sent me a jumper to go on the "daughter" board to force lithium charge profile. I haven't installed yet.
Our Tab 320 converter only says 8735, there is no P after it. Anyone know if its the same thing? And why did you use a "40" and others used a "35"? As you might imagine, I know very very little about all this.Thanks!
Open the cover and look for a sticker that says
"Model: WF-8735-P"
Which is a brown case, and works with a lead acid batteries.
OR
"Model: WF-8735-PB"
Which is a black case, and works with a lead acid battery.
OR
"Model: WF-8735-LiS"
Which has a brown case, and
A manual switch for lithium or lead acid bateries.
OR
"Model: Wf-8735-AD"
Which automatically detects either a lead acid or a lithium battery.
If your unit is not marked, or the label has been taken off, I'm. Not certain what Model you actually have or what it capabilities are.
As far as 35 or 40 in the Model number a 35 can source 35 Amps to your trailer. A 40 can source 40 Amps to your trailer.
After reading all of these post about the WFCO AD models, it seems to me that they are a lot of issues when trying to use them with Lithium batteries . Seems like the AD doesn't work the way it's supposed to. I've been researching CZcams and its looks like the best things to do is to switch over to 'Progressive Dynamic' converter which has a switch which you can set for the type of battery you have or about to change to, like me...I'm going with the latter..Progressive Dynamic....Less headaches..But thanks for the video on the installation guide and tips..
Three things are going on.
1. The "auto detect" feature is not what people think it is. It "auto learns" what type of battery it's connected to by watching one of more FULL charge cycles. People aren't being patient.
2. WFCO made a firmware change. Unscrupulous people are still selling older converters with the old firmware check the firmware version before your purchase.
3. People are installing these converters without upgrading the battery connections wire gague to handle the extra charge load. If the converter cannot see the increased charge load because the wires are too thin, it will stay in lead mode.
@@tabtrailerupgradesandmaint2923 FYI, this still happens with updated firmware. They do not have their configuration set properly for a lot of BMS systems of various brand batteries. It is a horrible way to detect the type of battery that is plugged in....
Great video! Thank you. Since the only apparent difference between the 8735-P, the 8735-AD and the 8740-AD is the converter, could you have left all of your original 8735-P hardware in place including all the breakers, AC connections, DC connections and fuses, and just swap out the converter? If not what is the issue that negates this theory.
Thanks again
Yes, I suppose the "guts" of the power supply could have been swapped out, but it would be more work to have done so than to replace the unit entirely.. disassembly of both units, and reassembly of the old unit with the new converter components would take a lit of work.
You can't do that because the board(s) are configured specifically for that converter. I supposed it is possible but would be a crapshoot
Update on my issues with getting the converter to switch to lithium mode. I returned my unit (8740AD) to WFCO for a firmware update. The original unit had version 1.17. WFCO returned my unit with firmware upgraded to version 1.20. I re-installed it and the BLUE LED light on the circuit board was lit upon installation (the blue LED indicates it is in lithium mode). However, the battery charged to only 13.6 volts (standard for lead acid, but low for lithium). Further, the LED light switched to green at some point, indicating that the unit was in in lead acid mode. I discharged my battery three times to below 10 percent and tried charging again. It never switched to lithium mode. This was confirmed by the green LED light AND low amperage readings going into the battery. The battery is an Ampere Time 12 V, 100 AH LifePo4, 1280Wh with 100A BMS. I have tried the "tricks" described in a WFCO video to get it to switch. It hasn't worked. I am wondering if I need larger wires between the controller and battery? Ideas???
I've been doing research on this problem too. My own system doesn't demonstrate this issue, but it does seem to be related to some manufacturers of lithium batteries installing a battery management system inside the battery that seems to fool the converter into thinking its a lead instead of a lithium.
Here's what I've found so far...
The Wfco converter determines the type of battery that is connected by how much current the battery pulls.
If it pulls alot, it thinks it's lithium
If it pulls a little, it thinks it's lead.
That's all well and good, untill some of these BMS systems inside the battery get too smart for their britches.
When some of these BMS systems detect that the battery is getting near full, they try to restrict the incoming current to protect the battery from overheating as it nears full charge.
That is a problem for the converter, in that once the converter can no longer see a high current being pulled, it decides its connected to a lead acid battery again.
Bummer.
That is why the wfco folks want you to discharge you lithium battery, so that it's internal bms system will alliw high current again, and signal the converter to flip.
Adding to this issue is that the blue led is not an indicator of what kind of battery it is connected to, but only an indicator that it is in "bulk charge mode, in some firmware versions.
If you read the wfco operation manual it clearly states that in order to not overheat the battery, bulk charging is limited to FOUR HOURS only.
So by design, if the wfco detects high current flowing, it will switch to lithium bulk charge mode for Four hours only.
After which time it will switch to top off mode, and the light will go green.
All that being said, the best solution I've found is to load up the wfco converter by turning on whatever high current devices you might have in your trailer, when you want the wfco converter to switch to bulk mode lithium. It will sence the high current being pulled, (it can't tell the difference between current being pulled by the battery, or current being pulled by the trailer), and switch to bulk mode for an hour.
High current devices would be a three way fridge in DC mode, or an inverter running a microwave etc.
Hope some of this might help you.
If you are interested It might be worthwhile to talk together on the phone and compare notes, rather than try and work thru these complex issues thru this forum. instant message me if that is something you would like to do.
I've heard from motorsports people that crimp connections are preferred because solder is fairly brittle and prone to failure in environments with lots of vibration. I myself am on the fence -- dad the EE taught me to never trust crimp connections; but in my own experience with robotics I've seen my fair share of failed solder joints.
After fifty years of work in the field, it is absolutely apparent that the strength of a solder joint is directly proportional to the skill of the person making the connection.
@@tabtrailerupgradesandmaint2923 It's not about strength -- it's flexibility. Because a solder joint is very rigid vibrations cause the wire to flex where it enters the solder joint. Eventually this will lead to fatigue failure of the wire. (The solder joint remains intact.)
That is NOT what studies have shown.
As a metal solder amalgam is actually SOFTER than copper.
Proper solder connection will withstand vibration and shock like a crimp connection, produces a lower resistance connection, and is less susceptible to corrosion. The soldering process is also more time-consuming than the crimping method, and it can create problems with both quality and reliability if not performed correctly.
The only reason people have trouble with soldering, is that they lack the skills to make a quality joint.
Think about this..
.
NASA, Boeing, Northrup Grumman, etc all solder their connections.
You should read this great article about NASA Standards...
hackaday.com/2016/11/03/specifications-you-should-read-the-nasa-workmanship-standards/
These were the workmanship standards I was trained to...
workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/frameset.html
@@tabtrailerupgradesandmaint2923 I'm afraid you haven't convinced me yet.
Solder is softer than copper; but usually we're talking about splicing stranded copper. The solder joint is more rigid than the surrounding stranded wire.
The NASA standards are clear that the joint must not be in an area that flexes and must be restrained from movement on both sides.
So, I guess where I'm at now is that a solder joint is likely better provided it's done properly and restricted from movement; but a crimp connection (using a proper crimper) is sufficient.
I have the means to do both well. I'll probably go with whatever is easier and at hand.
Thanks for your content. I have a newer T@B 320s and I feel their documentation is lacking. I've learned a lot about what's hidden from view from your videos.
Don't take my word for it, you really should read that NASA workmanship document. They have done a Ton of testing.
Glad you like the videos.
Pro Tip: It'll be a whole lot easier to install your AC cable strain reliefs into the new power center if you do it before you screw the new WFCO into your trailer's cabinetry. Also, a tiny drop of CA glue or clear nail polish on the empty neutral/ground terminal screws, where they thread into the buss bar, will keep them from vibrating loose as you tow your camper down the trail.
did not show what you fid with the y black wire
All the wire colors on the new converter go to the exact same locations that they came from in the old converter.