Fantasy: Where It Began and What Shaped It | Fantasy Deep Dive
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- čas přidán 24. 11. 2022
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As an Icelander, I feel that Edda Snorra and Prose are really important mythological connections to the world of fantasy. Norse mythology is really where elves and dwarves came from. As well as many great stories like that of Fenrir the wolf and Ragnarök, the end of the world. There are so many amazing things like the great tree and so much lore and story to go with everything.
I second this. Tolkien is often credited as the father of the fantasy genre, and he kinda is, but a lot of his stuff came from Norse influences.
Eg er sammala
Don't forget Lord Dunsany who might have been the first mythopoeic fantasy novelist, before Tolkien coined the term 'mythopoeia'. And Chinese fantasy, its main genres (wuxia, xianxia, and xuanhuan) and history, are also worth delving into.
Assuming you shot this a couple days ago and hopefully your feeling better. Came down with something this morning myself
I hope you feel better soon as well 😊
Get well soon :)
There are a few books that you missed that would explain the nature of fantasy worldbuilding and secondary worlds as well as inspirations of Tolkien.
Number 1: The Gods of Pegana by Lord Dunsany - This was hugely influential to many authors not the least of which includes H.P. Lovecraft and J.R.R. Tolkien.
Number 2: The King of Elfland's Daughter by Lord Dunsany - This book could be the first inkling of thought in Middle-Earth that would lead to the story of Beren and Luthien.
Number 3: The Worm Ourobouros by E.R. Eddison - This story came out in 1922 and focused on a created fantasy world that was in a protracted war between two nations one of a good nature and one of evil. It also involved a magic ring.
I remember looking back to the oldest fantasy I've ever come across that I think is the godfather to desert tropes. 1001 nights. Classic!
Ooh! I have heard of that!
@@britneynicole8903 collection of Middle Eastern folktales dating back to the golden era of Islam. Think in most western areas it's called Arabian Nights
@@keravnos2231 That is very intriguing. What year did it come out?
I’ve only started learning of him, but I feel like Miguel de Cervantes was a big influence on fantasy humour, much to the degree of Shakespeare. The ever-so-famous Don Quixote just feels like something Monty Python would have made today.
One has been trying for years. Looks like Terry finally finished it in 2018.
Don Quixote is THE book in Spanish speaking countries. Every school has at least one class about it. In Spanish speaking countries he's bigger than Shakespeare.
El Quijote (Don Quixote in Spanish) is one of the single most influential works of western literature ever. And there are other Spanish works that are also massively influential. I really wished Spanish literature was known more outside of our borders because it really is a juggernaut in terms of influence in literature and fantastic works of different genres throughout the history
Edit for typos
@@Antonio-oc8ub I’ve just recently bought Numantia, so if you or anyone else has any suggestions for Spanish literature please send more. I’ve been reading books by country, and I’ve recently just read several sagas so, please, give me another flavour for my palate.
@@Ham_991 sure! I’m not familiar with that one but there’s plenty of options to choose, I’m afraid though that I have to write the titles in Spanish since I don’t know how are they translated. If you want to go for the biggest known classics in Spanish, there are some you can’t miss. “El cantar del mío Cid “ is a great Tale usually told by minstrels during the middle age, and it’s about a knight who lost his honor and the favor of the king and must look for a way to regain it, it is a very important part of Spanish legends. Another essential one is “El Lazarillo de Tormes”, it’s such a wonderful book. The main character, Lazaro, during the course of the book tells us his story and his attempts to try to live a wealthy live starting from the most absolute poverty. It’s an essential piece of what we call in Spain, the genre of “Novela Picaresca”. In Spain we also have a ton of poetry of different kinds. A great starting point is the poetry of Gustavo Adolfo Becquer (in his book, “Rimas y Leyendas” he combines poetry with legends in narrative form, though from the latter group most of them are kinda boring, but there are a couple of bangers), and you can find other amazing authors as well such as Jorge Manrique with “Coplas a la muerte de su padre” or the well renowned Góngora and Quevedo. In terms of theater there’s so much to choose from. I normally recommend works that are from the XX century and forward. Federico García Lorca is a magnificent author, and his works such as “La casa de Bernarda Alba” are just so amazing to read. A good entry point could also be “Historia de una escalera” by Antonio Bueno Vallejo. And if you like comedy there’s also a ton of variety, like the works of Jardiel Poncela, of which I recommend “Cuatro corazones con freno y marcha atrás “. I must confess I’m not the most well read person of Spanish literature, but I think these are a solid entry point. If you have any doubts, the best entry points are “El Quijote” and “El Lazarillo de Tormes” and from then you can check out the most famous authors: Juan Ramon Jimenez (Nobel award), Camilo José Cela (also Nobel award), Góngora, Quevedo, Federico García Lorca, Emilia Pardo Bazán… Hope it was helpful :)
Thank you, thank you, thank you for mentioning Phantasies by George MacDonald. His Princess & The Goblin are also wonderful. He doesn't get mentioned enough.
How challenging to condense this topic down to a single video, and this was such a clear and organized deep-dive! I loved the influential books and quotes you selected along with how you discussed their relevance and different functions within the genre. Wonderful video, Merphy!
Her deep-dives are always so INTERESTING! If you have not watched her Horror Deep-Dive yet, you really need to! It was posted on Halloween! 🎃😜
Thanks for including Robert E. Howard, even just by his name, considering how much people do not acknowledge influence to the genre he had with his Conan series. I mean, "Northern Barbarian" trope is widely spread today in grimdark fantasy.
Robert E. Howard's Conan the Barbarian stuff is really interesting to read. Definitely an influence on the kinds of fantasy worlds we're familiar with today.
The Princess of Mars too, which I eould argue is more portal fantasy than scifi. In spite of the setting.
Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms books (based off of Dungeon and Dragons) seem to be overlooked by today’s readers, but they were very big in the late 80’s/early 90’s and turned on a lot of young readers of that time to fantasy - such as myself! They were also extremely influential on the world of fantasy-based video games such as Baldur’s Gate, Skyrim, etc...
Great video Merphy. As a 61 year old who is rapidly approaching retirement and being an avid fantasy fan for much of my life I really enjoy your channel as well as some others who really try to educate people on not only all the fun books out there, but also on the nuances and technical side of the genre as well. Keep up the great work.
Slight correction, although the character of Beowulf and possibly the story come from southern Sweden, the epic poem is (Old) English.
I think another important book in the development of fantasy is Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur from 1470, which is a compilation and reworking of the full story of King Arthur and the knights of the round table. It was also one of the first books to be printed in English, as an edition was produced in 1485 by William Caxton, who introduced the printing press to England.
Thank you for going further back than Tolkien. I love Tolkien but I'm tired of people claiming it begins and ends with him.
Yesterday, I started volume 1 of VS and I am already on chapter 2!! 😁😁
A separate but related genre is that of magical realism. Certain authors like Guy Gavriel Kay live somewhere in between fantasy and magical realism, but there is a whole spectrum of excellent books that range from humans with superpowers (Salman Rushdie) to ghost stories (Toni Morrison, Isabel Allende, Juan Rulfo), to the creation of a magical microcosms (Garcia Marquez), and many more.
I love these long format videos that examine the history of something. I'm glad you started doing these again. I know they must take a lot of time and work to finish. I also have added several books to my TBR from this, as I'm trying to experience more works from previous centuries. I kept telling myself, "Stop! You have enough books on your TBR!"
I love one of the line of authors that branch from Tolkien. Tolkien inspired Jordan who then inspired Sanderson. If you need a place to start the genre it’s with those three in my opinion.
It would be really cool to see reviews of some of the older and semi-older novels mentioned here, just to hear about how different and similar they really are
I would recommend Re:zero for anyone who wants a new series to try it is a ongoing modern story and a great gateway to Japanese's light novels. its about a boy summoned into a fantasy world he has one power "return by death" each time he dies time reverses and he reawakens with time to change fate.
This is a topic near and dear to my heart, and I thoroughly enjoyed your take on it, Merphy. I especially loved your explanation at the end of the many functions of fantasy. Thank you for the video!
I remember reading my first fantasy book ( since I was never interested on it) and imagine what book I read, it was the warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson, I remember being blown a away by it to the point that I started talking about it to some of my friends who doesn't even read books, from there on I have read a ton of fantasy books and I still feel the same thing every time I start reading a new one.
That is awesome!
I’ve been waiting for someone to do one of these for ages!! Thank you so much
I agree fantasy is as much as a means through which to explore important or uncomfortable topics. For example, one reason I love Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels is how underneath the absurdist humor, there's a lot of sharp satirical commentary on society/humanity, as well as themes about morality, justice, existentialism, free will, discrimination, progress vs reactionism, and more. The fantasy is merely the vehicle through which it works.
I wanted a video about this for such a long time! Great content.
Jack Vance and Gene Wolfe! I'd say the idea of a Dying Earth was the start of "extrapolative" fiction. Not building a world from scratch, not laying a supernatural blanket over our familiar one, but rather extending our line into the absurd and alien.
Love this kind of videos, very insightful and interesting! Thanks for that Merph!
Brilliant round-up and discussion. Insightful and educational. Brava.
Sorry you're not feeling well. Hope you get better soon.
Great video, as someone who is new to the fantasy genre, I look forward to looking up and reading some of the books you have listed here.
Thank you for the research and the smooth presentation. Get well soon!
Always happy to see a mention of the Earthsea books. Feel better soon!
Love this!! Thank you for this! 💛💛💛
Really great breakdown. I loved this!
Can't forget *Frankenstein: The Modern Prometheus* as an early example of hard sci-fi, or Terry Pratchett (for all I'm not the biggest fan) for adding humor and extensive critique as a response to pre-existing fantasy tropes.
I hope you feel better soon, girl!
I just want to say that your dedication to these research-y type videos is amazing. The amount of work you put into them is impressive and I will always appreciate the things you have to say about these topics, even if I don't care for the topic (which is rare), I will still watch. I know this video was published a while ago but still, well done!
I love all your quotes-good ones to share! Fantasy is so overlooked or looked down upon in certain circles. Thank you for walking through the history and pointing out that it started long before Tolkien!
Fantasy is the genre in which I feel the most immersed while reading. It creates a sense of greatness, that makes me totally comfortable. Also, the real life topics that authors bring to the plots are very important.
Indeed. Like I said in another comment: when you drastically alter some fundamental things (such as the world), you may see other fundamental things more clearly.
Another great video! My to-read list has got longer again! I'm a fantasy writer now and it is absolutely my refuge. The human creature needs fantasy. Our YA and NA lit today is phenomenal, and it's only getting better as diverse and underrepresented authors share their stories.
Mine is so long now!
Such a good video! To have the motivation to research this while sick is just...sick, hehe. Get well soon, Merphy!
This was great! So much I didn't even know i didn't know!
I love this series of genre history!! 💕
You should should check out The True History by Lucian of Samosata, its a satircal travologue from the like the 2nd century AD, but it's more similar to a fantasy novella rather being like any of the epics that we associate with that time. The guy goes to space and meets some aliens in it, it's crazy for the time it came out. You also might want to check out Gulliver's Travels if you hadn't already, it came out in the 1700's, it is a fantasy novel which also happens to be a satire and pretty much a travologue, though I don't know if that is coincidence or if Johnathan Swift had read Lucian and taken some inspiration. Beowulf(sometime before the 10th century) was pretty important too; Tolkein even did his own translation and commentary.
This video is essential! I plan to watch it a second time, and to take notes! You make me want to read Shakespeare!
Cheers from France :)
I read Shakespeare a while ago … take your time and be patient with it, but his work his really well done.
I'll already leave a thumbs up!
Thanks, Merph!
A few people have mentioned Howard's Conan, but that's just the tip of the iceberg that is swords & sorcery, the sub-genre that dominated fantasy for decades before being overwhelmed by Tolkienist epics. Smith, Moorcock, Lieber, and their morally ambiguous protagonists, who are more likely picking pockets than saving the world, they deserve a sentence or two.
Hey Merphy, thanks for the look into the past of the genre! :D
Fantasy gives us a way to absorb information in an enjoyable way. Topics like the navigation of sociopolitical landscapes, diplomacy, consequences of rule, interracial communication, philosophy, fanaticism, cultural diversity (and so much more) are all explored in fantasy. Trying to absorb those things from textbooks is frustrating for a large portion of the population. Having them presented in a story about dragons though? Totally awesome and easily absorbed. It is possible to learn so much from fantasy and completely valid to do so.
Some other early fantasy authors that I have seen cited as influential are: Lord Dunsay "The King of Elfland's Daughter", Mervyn Peake "Gormenghast", and E. R. Eddison"The Worm Ourorobos". I read these back in my early teens, and since I'm many decades older now, I don't remember much of the plot or characters but something about them has stayed with me all these years.
Thank you so much for this awesome video Merphy!!
It’s so interesting to me, particularly because it’s related to a topic I recently started diving into. I started reading a book and listening to online lectures about the origins of myths and fairytales. And those sources often mention that modern storytelling uses the same basic elements and tropes that were used back in the stone age and are a staple of “modern fantasy”. For some reason it never actually occurred to me, to look into the actual history and development of “modern fantasy”.
Somehow, I just assumed that Tolkien started it all. :grinning face with sweat:
Thank you so much for introducing this topic. It is fascinating!
This was really interessting! :D
Cool video! I love Fantasy!
Lovely video. Thank you.
I love fantasy so much. It’s such an awesome genre.
Great video! You actually made me curious about some of the older books that are influences, might check out a couple of them.
Wow... I learned of a few older fantasy books/stories that I'd never heard of before! Thanks!!!
Merphy, you mentioned George MacDonald, you should read his book At The Back of the North Wind. It’s his best novel and it’s one of the most magical feeling books you’ll ever read.
let's not forget the Persian epic "shahnameh" or "the letter of kings" by ferdowsi which is credited with singlehandedly preserving the persian language, traditions and tales
Merphy!!! Outstanding!! I loved this video! Excellent!! Seriously, I really enjoyed it. Your videos are my favorite... you're very good at this. I loved the Horror Deep Dive as well 👻👻 More deep dives please 🙏😁 ... and your Vlog channel is so very good. I am so glad you created it. Thank you for the great content!! 👍👏👏👏👏
Totally agree!
I absolutely love it when you do these kinds of videos. Now I want to read all of those classic fantasies you mentioned (well, almost all. I think I'll skip out on The Castle of Otranto XD).
Hope you get well soon ☺️
Merphy I know that Peter Pan is one of your all time favorite books so I need you to read Lost Boy by Christina Henry. It is a quick read (I couldn’t put it down and finished it in 2 days) it tells the origin of Hook and Peter and it is sooooo good!
I read fantasy purely to excape reality and enter worlds I would rather live in! :) I love your channel Merphy!
bruh that tolkien quote, almost gave me shivers
I found this very interesting and insightful.
I wish you had included some Magic Realism books from South America in this discussion, like 100 YEARS OF SOLITUDE and HOUSE OF THE SPIRITS.
Love your video and voice.
Thank you for this video. I agree that it’s completely wrong to dismiss fantasy and escapism.
This video also makes me think of a related topic I've been wondering about. (Maybe an idea for a video (series)? ):
Where do the different fantasy tropes come from? Like: pointed ears, the idea that knowing the true name of somebod/something gives you power to command it, the idea that iron is poison for fairies, etc. There are many more, but these are the ones that come to my mind right now.
Thank you for this very interesting summary, I wonder how many of the original {first} novels stood the test of time.
For the historically inclined the medieval period was interestng, the many versions of King Arthur legends (and other stories) wasn't Fantasy per se, but there were definately many tropes used ther, which we connect to Fantasy a lot.
Some are like Parsival. But i think the better contender is Orlando Furioso/inamorto.
While not read that much nowadays Jack Vance was also hugely influential to Fantasy, especially to Dungeons and Dragons and everyone influenced by it. The first iterations basically copied the magic from his Dying Earth books.
I enjoyed the tour of the history of Fantasy, Merphy! I've read some of these, but I've never heard of the Walpole and Coleridge books. They're now on my radar. I also hope to read Robert E. Howard, whom you mentioned, who was very influential for his sword-and-sorcery stories of Conan the Barbarian. Thanks so much, and I hope you feel better soon!
I have heard of Walpole before, but I have never tried of any of his books! I am thinking of finding some soon!
@@britneynicole8903 I like the concept of trying to escape a prophecy. And I like gothic fiction. Seems like a natural! :)
@@Dougeb7 If you are thinking about picking up a Walpole book, which one are you thinking about or have you thought about it?
@@britneynicole8903 The Castle of Otranto is the only one I know of. That's the one I was referring to above. Sounds really good!
@@Dougeb7 I will pick that one up and get it on my NOOK!
Great Vid, but I wanted to add a couple things.
First, this is very much a look at Western fantasy, in other area's of the world the story is quite different.
Second, sword and sorcery is, in some ways a precursor to the modern grimdark genre, with Howards Conan the Barbarian. Other notable Sword and Sorcery writers were Leiber (who actually coined sword and sorcery) and Michael Moorcock, who's influence is subtle, but far reaching and is self-described as the last fantasy author uninfluenced by Tolkien. All three undoubtedly left their mark on the fantasy genre and are responsible for the popularity of many tropes you find in modern fantasy.
Another notable author is Jack Vance, who practically invented the 'Dying Earth' subgenre of SFF, which NK Jemisin, among others, would later go on to write in.
Very interesting!
Not just Western fantasy but more specifically, the English (language) fantasy. There are a bunch of differences just within (Western) Europe alone.
On the other hand, you'd have to live in total isolation from most of the humanity to avoid at least the influence of the English-speaking world these days.
I love the dr suess quote!
My favorite genre!
In terms of novels of historic proportion you might want to read Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword (1954 - and only 274 pages), released the same year as Fellowship of the Ring. It draws on a ton of the same influences as Tolkien but goes in a different direction and lays the groundwork for the grimdark fantasy that would arise in the 1980s. He was one of the founders of the Society of Creative Anachronism (SCA). And if you like irony the Hugo award was introduced the year before the release of Fellowship of the Ring and The Broken Sword and not only did neither win the second Hugo ever awarded, neither even made the short list. The book that beat them both, They'd Rather Be Right, is now often cited as the worst novel to ever win the Hugo.
Thanks for the video Merphy but please rest and take care of yourself. You and your family's health is far more important than a couple of vids...
Great Video! Escapism into fantasy worlds, can be a safe haven for so many of us.
📖🥰📚
Agreed. Once you (or at least I) grow up, there are fewer and fewer things to be interested in while knowing next to nothing about. A fantasy setting is by definition more or less exactly that.
Besides books, you could also add some of the classic movies in fantasy. the Sinbad movies, class of the titans, and there were many others. Because I read more young adult fantasy and just started adding more adult ones to my reading list, I find that I enjoyed more of the fantasy movies were always my gateway to fantasy books.
The Blazing World by Margaret Cavendish is actually a super early 1600s portal fantasy/sci-fi!!
That jumper is sick
I just feel like putting in updates about where I am in VS. I am just about to start chapter 3!
Lord of the Rings is what inspired me to want to become a writer when I was in middle school; it was around the time the movies were coming out and I had no idea what it even was. I was more geared toward Disney movies and Star Wars back then but as I watched and read Lord of the Rings it was hard for me to comprehend it but once I understood it I was wholly invested in the story and it’s characters and to this day it remains my favorite fantasy book of all time.
I have yet to become a published author but that is my fault do to doubting my self; it’s something I want to make into a reality more then anything and I will make it come true.
I normally don’t say this but thank you for this video it really helps to inspire me to keep doing what I love doing.
This is much more recent, and almost outside of the scope you looked at, but video games hugely influenced the popularity of fantasy. They could easily be considered the origin of magic “systems”, and, once they stopped being quite so niche and vilified, have been one of the driving forces for fantastical popularity.
I think this video says to me that it is okay to have influences. I, personally, have tried desperately to come up with something truly original and have put a lot of pressure on myself doing so, so I find myself going back to the stories I love and asking myself how they pulled it off. Now, I let my stories go however I want, and if they hit a beat that is familiar, it's okay because I know as long as I put my own unique fingerprint on it, I'm A okay.
In 2022, I feel almost as if reality has become a fantasy. Sometimes, I wish that someone would write a boring, mundane non-fiction book about an ordinary person, so that I could escape to the real world for a change.
Another great epic story is the Cid, from Spain, written around 1200
really cool topic. i'm surprised there's no mention of gulliver's travels!
Exactly fantasy genre is ispired by Myth and Chanson de geste, an italian è amore Orlando Furioso by Ludovico Ariosto, which is important for avtual 2000 seires Prisoner of AZKABAN One exemple of most.
Thank you Miss Merily❤️🔥🤩
I've started the fantasy novel the Forgetting Moon by BLD. I'm about 100 pages in, and I'm beginning to understand the set up. There's nothing really groundbreaking so far, but it is very enjoyable at this point... and isn't that what's most important? Happy reading everyone.
That sounds very interesting!
Strong video Merphy, but what about Gormenghast? Did you read them? So far i find it amazing.
We cannot forget Dunsany and The King of Elfland's Daughter.
Isn't it funny how it started off with the Epics (which generally I suppose could be used as moral lessons) and during the century goes from being 'for children' and then goes back to be about morality (the choices we make, what is human, a look at our society by reflecting our problems in a magical world). The stories have shifted from gods and heroes to monsters, to humanity.
I am also pleased that you named several female writers. Recently read Dragonsbane by Barbara Hambly (1985) and it is so lovely to read a book where the characters so stray from the norm - the woman does not need saving(in fact she saves the Prince), competent but perhaps bitter that her powers aren't enough ; the Prince is naive, sheltered and idealistic, weak even ; the great warrior Dragonsbane is down-to-earth, clever and loving. I can't wait to read the rest of the trilogy
Early!! I hope everyone’s Thanksgiving was great!
One thing I would add, is the influence on Fantasy by other media/genres and of Fantasy on them: Plays (such as Shakespeare), Opera (Richard Wagner’s «Ring Cycle» based on German and Norse Myth and Sagas with dragons, dwarfs, gods, valkyries and magical objects), historical novels (Walter Scott’s “Ivanhoe”, Lev Tolstoy’s “War and Peace” and Victor Hugo’s “The Hunchback of Notre Dame”), the adventure stories (Alexander Dumas, Robert L. Stevenson, H. Rider Haggard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Jules Verne, HG Wells, Jack London, Edgar Poe), Lord Dunsany, cinema (Fritz Lang’s “Die Nibelungen” Film Duology might be the first “Fantasy Movie”, “Robin Hood”, “The Wizard of Oz”, “Alexander Nevsky”, Cowboy Movies, Akira Kurosawa’s Samurai Movies, the Sword and Sandal films of the 50s and 60s (“Ben Hur” and multiple Harryhausen films), Star Wars, the multiple chessy 80s Fantasy movies and the 80s/90s/00s Historical Epics: “Henry V”, “Braveheart”, “The Last of the Mohicans”, “Gladiator” etc.), Sci-Fi and Modern Fiction such as “Dune”, Surrealism and Magical Realism, TTRPG in the 70s and 80s (D&D heavily inspired by S&S (Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock and more) mixed with Tolkienian races) and today movies (LOTR), TV (Game of Thrones) and Computer/Console Games (JRPGs such as Final Fantasy for example).
PS: Best of Health Merphy!
I was honestly expected her to mention opera, -or at least Wagner's Ring Cycle, as that was so influential to The Lord of the Rings. Granted, it does seem people exaggerate the parallels between the two.
I take a lot of the fantasy and (perhaps especially) SciFi as a way of abstracting things: When you completely rework some parts of the reality, such as the laws of nature, it is interesting to see what remains. And also, what does not.
You can have a society where some or all individuals have whatever superpowers - you still have society and individuals. You might not have the limits of current technology but you may still have the limits of human nature. Your teens may go to a magical school learning magic and maybe their weekly duties involve saving the world; you still have teens that go to school and have weekly duties.
You can, if you want, take it to the level of allegory e.g. by having St. George go slay the dragon like the crusaders went and slew the pagan(s and their) religions. Or you can just make it an exploration of what might happen in a world somewhat but maybe not that different to our own.
5:50 the dude wrote an isekai lol
For a TV groundbreaker 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' brought in a lot of teens. It's not perfect, but it addresses a lot of day-to-day issues using fantastical means. It will always have a place on my re-watch list.
I am shocked you didn’t include Peter Pan, one of your favorites.