KJV Bible Errors in The Book of Mormon? || Investigating the CES Letter Ep.2
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- čas přidán 14. 02. 2024
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In this episode Hayden dives head-first into the CES letter, investigating its first claim regarding The Book of Mormon. The CES Letter claims that Joseph Smith plagiarized verses from the Bible and that it is not an inspired book of scripture. You be the judge on this episode of "Investigating the CES Letter."
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The book of Mormon has brought me so much peace and joy.
Well, enjoy that now because you will find the lake of burning sulfur to be quite the opposite. The MORMAN cult will lead you straight to hell unless somehow by God's grace you discover the truth that God ALREADY provided in HIS Word.......Genesis >>>>Revelation NOT the book of MORMAN which was penned by DEMONS. There is always "truth" mixed in with Satans lies!!! Wake the HELL up!!!
There's a very interesting study by John A. Tvedtnes titled, "Isaiah Variants in the Book of Mormon," that completely obliterates this line of criticism. There are NUMEROUS differences between the KJV and BoM, most of which are neutral in regard to "which is more correct." Of the differences that are NOT neutral, MORE favor the BoM translation over the KJV translation.
Not only did JS NOT simply copy and paste the KJV, as is implied by Runnels, but where there are differences, they tend to support the JS translation over the KJV.
Zing!!!
Do you have a link for that? That sounds fascinating!
Wow, so even the stick of Joseph guys can rebut the CEs letter. I actually believed for a long time that this was a solid bom criticism, but it just goes to show that while the spirit of truth will always lead you in the right direction, apostates will always lead you astray.
The difference between the KJV translation and the BOM is that the Kings translators were actually translating from Hebrew and Greek texts and were competent in those and many other ancient languages. They were the best scholars in the world at the time ( Oxford and Cambridge) Smith wasn’t competent in an ancient near eastern languages, and wasnt translating from any textual sources, but had his head buried in a hat reading off of a rock , just like occult practitioners before him did . HUGE difference.
You forgot to mention by the power he claimed to have translated; the power of God.
Not to mention that all of the Isaiah chapters minus one (Isaiah 12) from Isaiah 2-14 vary from 20% to 50% from the book of mormon, the avarage is 30%. I did my own reading for this I encorage people to do there own reading. I laughed super hard when i read this part of the CES letter. This guy Jeramy, or I shoudl say these people because he did not do it alone, are modern day Sherems. I LOVE THIS CHANNEL you guys are killing it!
In the early 2000s I was in the library at Salt Lake Community College and saw a book on the Dead Sea Scrolls translation, I don't remember the title or author. In this book it mentioned there are four different versions of Isaiah among the Scrolls. It specifically used that verses that has "All the ships of the sea" or "All the ships of Tarshish". One of the versions of Isaiah had "all the ships of the sea" and one had "All the ships of Tarshish", but two of the versions had both, just like The Book Of Mormon.
Did you wear diapers to the library too?
@@joshua.snyder What kind of stupid question is that? Do you really think that the millions of men, women and children of all ages with incontinence issues would wear diapers if they could turn off their medical conditions at will? Especially with people like you persecuting and abusing people just because of the treatment people have to use, and also persecuting and abusing those for what happens when they choose not to use this treatment, because of the persecution. All this persecution in violation of The Americans With Disabilities Act, which constitutes a hate crime. Just because the victims are usually too embarrassed or unaware to bring charges, doesn't mean it isn't abuse against elderly and children, and a hate crime. Repent before someone decides to enforce it against you. Stop your abusive behavior before you become a statistic.
@@joshua.snyderTf?
@@professorchimp1 Search: Barton Bagnes Diaper Boy. This is Cardon's crowd.
@@professorchimp1 Just search Barton Bagnes...
RE: Isaiah 2:9 According to the original BOM printer's manuscript, it should read "boweth not down". It was corrected in later editions to read "boweth not down". The print setter (presumably Grandin) changed the text to read like the 1769 KJV. It's not unique to KJV though. The BOM reading is the unique one (and makes more sense).
Ironically, this "error" actually testifies of the fact that Joseph did not copy the KJV. That's why this is my favorite CES error 🤣🤣
That's fascinating, thank you
If anything, this proves how true the Book of Mormon is!
...where are the manuscripts?
Jeremy did not do any of the research himself. It's a compilation of cringe Reddit posts put together in a PDF. That's why it all falls apart easily. None of it is truly checked. If it puts the church in a bad light, he doesn't care
A lot of the issues in the ces letter are discussed as factual in the gospel topics essays though.
@@Mustardmanorexactly. The denial is sad.
@@Spirit_to_seek I've yet to meet anyone who can find something in the ces letter which is an outright lie. Almost every issue is in the gospel topics essays. There might be apologetic views and explanations for these oddities and such, but there's not been any outright lies. Also, apologetic views don't tear something apart easily. They are often very wordy and roundabout methods which confuse the situation or rewrite history or ignore science. I love when people say they "found middle eastern DNA" proving Lehi and his family came over. Trouble is the DNA they're talking about is a subgroup in Siberia... Which supports a land bridge and not a ship from the middle east. Apologists cling to the evidence which they want to believe in.
They don't. Apologist arguments boil down to, "that's not the right context" or something of the sort. It's just blatant cognitive dissonance. Nothing more
@@billincm1034 it's funny how context is argued consistently. Or that something is being interpreted incorrectly. Context is something very difficult to sort out but untrained apologist historians seem to always have it solved...
The Book fo Mormon helped me understand the Bible when nothing else did. I can testify after a lifetime of studying both books for decades, that they testify of each other. Both are the word of God when translated correctly. And Joseph Smith was truthful when he stated that a man will draw nearer to God by reading the Book of Mormon than any other book. It is all true. It boggles my mind how throughout the OT and NT the Lord shows us time and again how he uses the child or the humble/uneducated to bring down the high and mighty, and to do His work, but so many professing Christians refuse to accept the absolute fact that God can still do that today. And He did.
Jeremy takes things that are on the fringe, that can be used by people who are struggling to push them over the edge. I know a number of people that have been sucked in by this trap. Testimony is the best way to not be tossed here and there by every little thing that can be used to cause doubt. The Holy Ghost teaches all truth, and confounds the knowledge of the wise. Love the video, it shows that none of the points that he had have any weight. There might be one that maybe he has a case. Love people out there trying to take the time to help people find the truth.
This simply proves to me that these claims target the lazy learners.
This is a very profound comment. So true.
I’m sorry but those things he’s verifying here aren’t even the issue. The fact is the exact words in the Book of Mormon are those in the same translation Joseph had in his home. Including the italics and errors that were found in that version. I’m an active member and watched this but have to be honest the Book of Mormon issues aren’t even found in this review.
@@Sayheybrother8but he did explain it starting at the 10:51 timestamp. Joseph Smith was translating the BoM into the same type of english as that of the KJV, which would inevitably result in the same words being used at some points within the translation.
@@Sayheybrother8 Tell me you haven't watched the whole video without telling me you haven't watched the whole video....
@@JosephCartertheMinkMan im genuinely telling you I’ve watched the whole video and genuinely feel that he doesn’t understand what others say is problematic and misrepresents the issues that some have found. Just praying about it and dismissing “antis” as being less than genuine or haters only fuels those who don’t like the church. I’m an active member and have done the deep dive into the issues. The problem is, there are real issues and the more content producers act like there aren’t issues those who learn the real problems are turned off and some angrily. I happen to have maintained my faith but am still learning but understand how disingenuous and ignorant it sounds when believing members act like the CES letter is just garbage. Some of it is and the author admits that but the issues that are real; Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon changes along with including direct copying of the Bible are reasonable concerns and too much for some:)
great job Jackson. I've studied Hebrew and you're doing what I would do.
Wonderful video! A Bishop once wanted me to try and tackle dismantling the CES letter. After several hours, I concluded that while some people enjoy playing whack-a-mole, I did not. I respect the work and effort you are putting into this. You have far more energy than I do. I think you said it best at the end, it has the appearance of being solid research, but, like the great and spacious building, it has no foundation on which to stand.
I've worked at all the top tech companies - Google, NASA, GE, Cisco, etc. I've come to learn that people put WAY too much faith in experts. These experts are also biased and fallible like everyone else. For some reason, critics of the church are always given the benefit of every doubt
A couple reasons I don't have to explore every line of the CES letter - I've read dozens of anti-mormon critiques, and they ALWAYS seem to leave out critical context or critical evidence. When you quickly glance at it, it's shocking and condemning. However I've seen so many half truths in anti-mormon content that they've lost all credibility with me. John Dehlin puts on a good show acting like a caring uncle, but I can't trust anyone who thinks "the ends (THEIR ends) justify the means"
Another thought - the Book of Mormon used to have hundreds of anachronisms, but as technology and discovery have passed, it's now down to maybe 20 anachronisms, which gives me faith that someday, even if it's the millennium, all will be revealed.
@@GravityFalloutPines too much faith in science and peer reviewed research too. The process of peer re iewing is very flawed, and science is an ever moving goal post
Thanks for taking the time to do this. If you get to talk with Jeremy, ask him why he still has that ridiculous list of places that Joseph used in the Book of Mormon and most of them were named after the Book of Mormon was written but he claims Joseph got the names from surrounding areas. He took some heat for it but others said to keep it on the list because it broke their shelf. He is very intellectually dishonest.
Do you believe in the “mere coincidence” explanation?
@@dr33776 what was a coincidence?
@@wendyfoster5579
Moroni/comoras
That the smiths landlord first name was Lemuel
That Joseph magic mentor first name was laman
That Joseph’s dad had the same tree of life vision years before the BoM was published
That wording from a patriarchal blessing given by Joseph sr appears in the book of Abraham
That zelph fought with the Onendagus people while there is a Onondaga tribe in New York State
All that is just coincidence?
@@dr33776 here is the lowdown place by place. Believe it or not I don’t care but the last person I would believe is someone dishonest about the matter.
The map places Alma in West Virginia, but that city was a tiny, unincorporated town called Centerville at the time. Jeremy then offers up Alma, NY as another possible location, but that town didn’t exist until the early 1830s and was called various things like Honeoye, Honeoye Springs, or Shongo for years until settling on Alma.
Antioch, OH, was not founded until 1837. Antioch, WV, was not named that until 1880.
Boaz, WV, was named that in 1878.
Connor, up in Canada, was named after a place in Ireland in 1865.
Ephrem was actually called Saint-Éphrem-de-Beauce, Quebec, and didn’t exist until 1866.
Jacobsburg doesn’t appear on any maps until the year after the Book of Mormon was published.
Jerusalem is only 0.2 square miles and doesn’t show up on any maps then or even now, and obviously, the Jerusalem of the Bible would be a much more likely inspiration, anyway.
The same goes for Jordan, which was unincorporated until 1835, but does show up on a map in 1827.
Kiskiminetas Township, PA, was named that in 1832.
Mantua Village, OH, was incorporated in 1898.
Monroe, NY, was founded in 1808, but didn’t appear on any maps until after 1831.
Minoa, NY, was named in 1895.
Morin Township, Quebec, was founded in 1852.
Noah Lake, OH, was created when the Nimisila Reservoir was built in 1936.
Omer can’t be found on any maps of NY, PA, or Canada, past or present.
The Rama Indian Reserve didn’t exist until 1836, but it seems Rama Township did exist before then.
Ripple Lake is so tiny, it’s hard to find even on modern maps let alone maps from 1830, and is surrounded by 250,000 other equally tiny lakes in the Ontario area.
Shiloh, PA, is not actually a real town. It’s a Census Designated Place that was established for statistical purposes.
There is no Midian on any map of PA, and it’s another name from the Bible.
A tiny fishing village named Hyatt’s Mill was indeed renamed Sherbrooke in 1818, but was still called Hyatt’s Mill by nearly everyone until 1832 when the British arrived.
@@wendyfoster5579 I didn’t list any of those coincidences 🤔
Great video! You give too much grace to Runnels. He doesn’t care how factual or solid his criticisms are he just wants people to leave the church, that’s why this is in here. That’s why the place names criticism is in there as well he admitted that on Reddit.
He said he wants people to leave so he put in bad arguments? Or he just that he knows some of them aren't the best, and you are assuming it's because he wants people to leave?
He said on Reddit that he thought the place names argument was the weakest one and he was considering taking it out, but then he received a bunch of comments from people saying that that argument was important to their deconstruction and them leaving the church so he decided to leave it in. In other words, he thought that bad argument was hurting his overall case but after seeing that it was having the desired effect (people leaving the church) he left it in.@@beefmaster4
The way you dismantled this contentious assertion from the CES letter was perfect; humble, honest, and bold.
God lives! And through the prophet Joseph he has revealed the Book of Mormon, the truth thereof and the fullness of the everlasting Gospel! Hallelujah! Thanks for this awesome testimony builder of a video
I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that if the native americans come unto christ and repent of their sins, that their skin may become white and delightsome! Praise to the man!
The whole point of the CES letter is to overwhelm you with claims that take far longer to research and answer than just to read. It presents itself as if it is so well researched and organized that it must be true. As if the author has already done all the research for you so you don’t have to. But the moment you start looking into the claims, they start falling apart
I have a feeling that you haven't actually researched anything yourself, have you?
@@jonbaker476oh so your just using your “feelings” 😂😂
@@mickski548 Nah, it's the Holy Ghost lmao
@@jonbaker476 lol I have a feeling you read the CES letter and took it at face value.
I fell for this trap! I’m glad I got to see this! I tried to go through the whole CES letter before my mission (I leave in like a week) so I went through these topics so fast! On this one, I assumed that the mistakes must have just been a way for the reader to know it’s referencing scripture… but I’m so glad that really going through it makes a better understanding.
I've read every point in the ces letter and kjv errors was the only point that fair lds didn't give a plausable enough answer to IMO. So i put it on my faith shelf. But you just gave a plausable answer. Great job.
Nice, I had just asked about this in prayer and I'm so happy about you bringing up this topic.
It’s presentism. The guy takes the current word of prudent and assumes it has the same meaning in Joseph smiths time. That’s like that “affair” Joseph smith had, which wasn’t an extramarital relationship but simply an interaction, and originally it was the word “scrape.”
Why was Oliver so upset over an interaction? Why did he call it dirty and nasty?
Don Bradley seems to think scrape implies a jam or a tough situation. What was witnessed in the barn? a marriage? affection? sex? the record is inconclusive, but it wasn't simply an interaction.
And another thing ... some Hebrew words are not fully known due to being obscure and sometimes scholars have different ideas about what words mean. For example, Isaiah 2:16 mentions what the KJV translates as "pleasant pictures". This word in Hebrew ( שְׂכִיּ֥וֹת הַחֶמְהה) "shikeeyoth ha-cHemdah). The word picture "שְׂכִיּ֥וֹת" "shikeeyoth" is an obscure word used only in this verse. We don't really know what it means for sure. Some scholars believe that it is referring to "sights" since the word is similar to the word for "see". In my version I translate it as "pleasant sights". Some scholars think it is referring to ships because the word is also similar to a word for ship but to do that you would have to add a "peh" and in my opinion the word for "sight" is much closer to this word than ship.
interesting great point
@@dinocollins720 Thank you!
This makes the BOM translation of isiah 2:16 in error right? Because it adds an additional line that's really just a different translation of the same line?
@@mcable217 Are you referring to the ships of the sea and ships of tarshish? What I have come to know is that there were a bunch of different manuscripts based on the region, these are based on older versions, which were based on even older versions. Over time things get dropped out. What the BOM shows is that these two lines were originally in the older version of Isaiah. As this manuscript was sent to various regions, scribes had a habit of correcting what they thought were errors in text. Some scribes kept "the ships of the sea" and considered the other to be an accidental repetition while other scribes considered "the ships of tarshish" to be a repetition. In those regions scribes then kept those records and replaced them with new copies as they got too old.
What you're doing is awesome and important man. Keep it up. Too many people hear or see something thats well put-together and/or looks really "academic" in oppositions to church teachings (cough cough the CES Letter) and they just take it for "fact" and let it ruin their testimony, when in reality all it takes is some in depth research on their part to essentially debunk most anti claims. So what you're doing proves that we don't need to listen to the arguments of non-believers no matter how "intellectually superior" they may purport or appear to be.
Great job! When lies look like research we can be mislead. Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. Not gently placed. Thrust
That scripture will certainly apply to Joseph Smith too who has deceived >17 million people.
Great work, love the video. So hard for me to understand how people just read the CES letter and accept every word as fact. Hard to understand why you would want to follow Jeremy and Dehlin instead of Nelson, Oaks, Holland, Bednar etc.
Because Jeremy and Dehlin aren't racist, homophobic, sexist bigots who claim to speak for God like Nelson, Oaks, Holland and Bednar?
I was wondering about this and looking for the answer.
There's a Jewish Rabbi that has a CZcams channel, he's a pretty cocky guy, but he obviously felt threatened enough to talk about "The Mormons" and address his views on the Book of Mormon. I don't know if he actually ever read the Book of Mormon or not, he likely has heard the arguments against it and then put a Jewish spin on it, but his argument, he seemed pretty pleased with his final opinion, was that:
If the Book of Mormon was an ancient record that was recorded by his forefathers, why then did Nephi not quote the Isaiah of the Hebrew text, as it should be, but instead quoted Isaiah from not only the KJV version of the Bible, but with all the flaws the KJV is reported to have? That was his argument. If I'm to believe the Book of Mormon, why is the Book of Mormon history not my history, but during the Creeds and translation of Bible which shows it's not historic. So, as I've learned, when something like that comes up, you don't go to your Bishop and say you've been deceived and demand your records be removed. You take a step back, breathe, and be patient and wait because the answer will eventually come along, and it seems the CES Letter has everyone thinking and directing it and working to debunk it, ya just have to be patient and it will come.
I would edit this and add: Jesus had to do the very same thing in his day. Scholars and those that thought they knew better than him approached him and said: You're Jehovah of the Old Testament, are you not? You were this jealous, wrathful, anger kindled God that sent the people of Moses to go in and conquer cities, and massacre all of them, including little children, and now, you're presenting yourself to us as this fun-loving be forgiving, turn the other cheek, give them your coat kind of person. You presented yourself to us as this great military leader like any other Pagan sect that had stories of God's being warring and conquering beings...... And now you're this? You're not God, you're not Jehovah. If you are God, tell us plainly."
Jesus had to debunk all of his own critics and lay out the groundwork, and did it any good? Nope. So my old man would tell me: In one ear and out the other, and they killed him. It's true, Jesus is polar opposite than before he took on flesh, the Old Testament is crazy and in a way, you can't blame the Jews for seeing things as they do, Jesus was vastly different in the flesh, almost seemed hypocritical, but there he was having to defend himself and debunk all the nitpicks just as Latter-day Saints have to do now, and for what? To go in one ear and out the other
You did a fantastic job on the video. So much effort and time put into this. 🎉
The CES letter has been debunked many times by many people. It's been found to be full of lies and manipulative tactics. As you said the CES letters strength is in people taking it at face value and not looking into it. Great job!
No, I think people just want a response to have a response. It has not been debunked. It’s easy to look for a refutation of something that it is actually studied the source material. For example, can you explain why the Lord’s prayer in the King James version has a false ending that says “for thine is the kingdom and the power in the glory forever. Amen. “? And yet this error appears in the book of Mormon at 3 Nephi and yet it was corrected by Joseph Smith and the Joseph Smith translation?
14 And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.. (JST Matt 6:14).
12 And alead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
13 For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen. (3 Ne. 13:12-13)
13 aAnd blead us not into ctemptation, dbut deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the eglory, for ever. Amen. (Matt. 6:13)
@@Sirach144 that error could be a printers error. The printer could have had the KJV of the prayer memorized and filled in the type by memory instead of reading the script carefully. I'm sure there are error in the BOM, that's not the issues. I watched 2 episodes of FAIR that debunked the CES letter. The CES letter claimed Joseph Smith got the names in the BOM from city names around him. Many were a stretch and many of those cities didn't have those names in Joseph's day. The other was the claim that Joseph copied text from another book. They printed the text of both books and included a lot of ellipsis ... Turned out once you read both books without the ellipsis they were nothing alike.
@@justjamie7577 no, they’re not. We can’t just keep chalk everything up to printer errors. Because they have been corrected over the years. And yet this is still not corrected. So how was the most most correct book on earth still still still still containing errors?
@@justjamie7577 That is an absolutely insane logical jump. Additionally, what about the Book of Abraham? It literally proves JS was making it all up. He said he was translating the papyrus scrolls and he gave intricate, specific details of the imagery and what it translated to, and then it turnes out he was COMPLETELY wrong. He claimed that the egyptian god, Min, was Elohim sitting on his throne near Kolob. I guess no one thought to question why Elohim was depicted with an erect p3nis?
@@jonbaker476we’ll see very soon enough who is right. Good luck to ya. Hope all is well.
Thank you for doing the foot work. Are you going to address the JST in the Book of Mormon? I’ve always wondered about that.
Yes! That will be next!
YES. I was waiting for this video! Can’t wait for the next!
Poor Jeremy, he has no foundation to stand on. Fool. But the damage is done, sad.
I don't know what Jeremy meant when pointing out 'errors' in the KJV, but I do find it odd that there is so many verses that almost the exact same wording. Since KJV was written in the language of those in England in the 1600s, why would is be the same phrasing and wording so exactly in 1800s when Joseph translated to English? I'm very confused by that?
Is there a link to the first one?
Will this series be continued?
I've been looking forward to this video!
Heck yeah you guys! I DIG this series! Denounce deception!
The entire lds religion is a deception. It is utterly laughable!
I love the Book of Mormon. It brings my life so much hope and peace!
Thanks for your posts! ☀️❤️
Thanks for your work. God bless
Great job with your research!
Considering that the characters on the gold plates were logographic tells me that Joseph had license in the translation and chose to follow the KJV when it made sense. In fact, a message in the BoM is how the stick of Judah and Joseph would flow together in the last days, and so using similar language in the Bible and BoM helps to accomplish this.
Excellent work!
This is an incredible video. Thank you.
I studied the CES Letter myself and found similar problems with many of the claims. For example, when it tries to claim that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized by different sources, I actually went and READ those sources and they were nothing alike besides the fact that they use Early Modern English 😂
Some of the claims presented in the CES Letter seem pretty damning until you actually go and investigate for yourself. Unfortunately, many will take each bullet point at face value, so it’s helpful to have videos like this that go in depth to clarify some of what I consider to be deceptive rhetoric from the crowdsourced anti-Mormon playbook.
The CES doesn't claim word for word plagiarism. The LDS General Authority B.H. Roberts wrote a secret report named "Studies of the Book of Mormon" in which he details the numerous and strong similiarities between the BOM and View of the Hebrews. Also, did you know that Hyrum attended Dartmouth College Prep school where his other relatives taught? Did you know that many of the writings of Dartmouth Professor John Smith are very similar to the doctrines of Jospeh Smith? Did you know that the Smith's lived in and around Dartmouth theological school for many years?
This was fantastic. Thanks for your time in milling these issues openly!!
I greatly appreciate the work that you are doing I no longer believe in the church after reading the CES letter and spending the past few years researching both sides of the argument for and against the true claims of the church. I love learning more truth. This topic of Joseph Smith copying every word from passages in the Bible was one of my big concerns that I feel proves the BOM to not be what it claims to be. So it is good to see that the "errors" aren't really errors but are just slight differences with very similar meanings. But it is still very concerning that the BOM which should have been translated straight from reformed Egyptian to English has the exact words from all of translations from Greek and Hebrew.
Thanks for sharing this! I hope you stick around and keep watching!
The LDS General Authority B.H. Roberts wrote a secret report named "Studies of the Book of Mormon" in which he details the numerous and strong similiarities between the BOM and View of the Hebrews. Also, did you know that Hyrum attended Dartmouth College Prep school where his other relatives taught? Did you know that many of the writings of Dartmouth Professor John Smith are very similar to the doctrines of Jospeh Smith? Did you know that the Smith's lived in and around Dartmouth theological school for many years?
Tbh, your last point isn't it. No matter tue language that is used, the message is the same. Just because Spanish uses "Mesa" for table but German uses "tisch" doesn't mean they're conveying different topics or meanings. They are the same. Regardless if it's translated from reformed Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, the message is the same.
@@Redwhitebluegarden Everyone understands what translate means. The question is if Joseph Smith was plagiarizing from the Bible.
Did God show Joseph Smith the exact same words and italicised text on the sear stone in a hat that Joseph used to treasure dig with that the translators of the Bible decided to use for the edition of the Bible that Joseph Smith had in his possession at that time in history? God/Joseph could have used different words with the same meaning but they didn't they copied the exact same words in the exact same order from the exact Bible Joseph had at that time. Yes the meanings are all the same between different editions of the Bible but the concerns about plagiarism are still not addressed. I'm open to having my mind changed and having a discussion.
Why is the BoM translated into 15th century English instead of the English spoken at the time of Joseph Smith?
You should use the JST and compare it with the same scripture in the BOM. Since he first translated BOM and later the JST you will see how the translation changed from scriptures in the BOM.
Then also the last chapter of Mark originally only went to chapter 8 and then about 200 years later Christian monks didn't like how Mark ended without telling the resurrection so they created verses 9 - end. However this last part also shows in the BOM
Awesome! Thank you:)
Bro, Joseph Smith copied the frickin’ internet!
Probably used his Apple Vision Pros and plagiarized Wikipedia 🤦🏻♂️
Jeremy will not talk with you. He's making too much money in his non-profit organization. They've been many things pointed out to him directly that are false in his CES letter yet he refuses to update them. If he was honest he would totally trash the thing and stop his business money making priest craft garbage. He is not honest making him a child of the evil one.
Sounds remarkably like Joseph Smith. He was a compulsive liar, sex addicted fraud who claimed to speak for God. The church is making too much money in it's 'non-profit' organization to come clean. $150,000,000,000 in liquid cash and a substantial property and land portfolio. 17,000,000 people deceived from his priest craft (treasure digging) garbage. He is not honest making him a child of the evil one.
Excellent presentation 👍🏻
One way I like to look at this particular complaint of the Book of Mormon is by putting myself in Gods shoes.
If he had the translation be different than the most common English version of the Bible, people would have said, “see, the BofM is fake since it doesn’t match the Bible.”
And if God had it match the KJV of the Bible (at that time) people would say, “why does it match the version of the Bible that Joseph had almost exactly”
Either way, people would find a fault with it.
People are up in arms that a work of God didn’t come about by normal human means, yet completely forget… it’s a word of God. The whole thing comes from heavenly means. The minor changes he wants in a translation don’t mean it’s fake.
Crazy how people complain about (or stumble on) the smallest of pebbles, forgetting that roads are built out of thousands of them. As long as God is working with imperfect people, the methods and processes can’t be perfect.
Where is episode 1?
The problem is more than just KJV errors. KJV has _italics_ , which are comments by the translators, that go into the BoM as well. Joseph didn't understand they are commentary, not the actual words of the Bible.
I don't get how people get so tripped up on the ces letter. Like the majority of it I could answer off the top of my head without having to study anything.
Do you believe God is homophobic, racist, sexist and a polygamist? I'd like you to explain that please.
@@benkenlaude3301bringing in homophobic tells me exactly who you are. Science disagrees with multiple genders and homosexuals. Scientifically two males can’t have children natures intent was always opposite sex
@@benkenlaude3301god doesn’t care if your gay or whatever just follow the commandments he only favors the righteous people even those who don’t know the commandments and do good works
Isaiah 2:16 is a direct copy of Adam Clarke's commentary on the same verse, which Joseph Smith was found to have taken "inspiration" from (numerous times) for his King James Bible translation. The number of similarities to Adam Clarke's bible commentary was so significant (and a book Joseph had access to), that a BYU research article was published about it.
It doesn't matter how much textual inaccuracies you point out. These people have come to a feelings based belief. We can not rationalize and "intellectualize" them out of it. It's like working with an addict...we are on their time.
Leave me alone. Seriously, stop messaging me. @@MemyzelphandI
doing the lords work brother
The book of Mormon was written in reform Egyptian.
Mor means love.
Mon means everlasting.
The Book of Mormon titled page translated means The Bookof God's everlasting love.
I suppose he gathered all of the material for the Hopewell burial mounds too?
Fascinating how often the literal translation of bible matched up with the BoM
Because that version uses the KJV in its translation. This is a fundamental flaw in the video.
Everyone watching this is being deceived.
@@CalConrad so it's deceiving that lsv uses the same source text as kjv? I think that's the point, to see if the translation was incorrect you would want to see how the same source text is translated
@@CalConrad Your lord Jeremy is pleased with you. Must be nice to let him do all your thinking for you ;-)
@@beefmaster4 No, it actually purposefully used the text from the KJV even though it's not found in the manuscripts. It says this in the LSV materials, 'Inclusion of the verses found in older English translations such as the KJV that are not found in many modern translations.' The reason why these verses are only found in the KJV is because they are well accepted errors, yet people love the JKV so it persists.
So, in other words, the LSV used the KJV as some of its basis for translation, and then these guys turned around and used it to affirm the KJV version. What sense does that make?
Outstanding
Some have forgotten 2 basic principles that illustrate why KJV Isaiah is sometimes identical to the Book of Mormon and sometimes quite different.
1. The Nephites had the brass plates which Nephi loved and quoted and these words ended up in the gold plates or the unabridged plates of Nephi that Mormon included. These unabridged plates (2nd set of plates or Fayette plates) were Nephi through Omni.
2. The Bible has gone through many translations and the great and abominable church has removed many plain and precious truths from the bible. 1 Nephi 13:28-29 states,
"28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest-because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God-because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them."
What was written on the brass plates should be identical to the bible if the plain and precious truths had not been removed from the bible or the translator messed up. These differences actually add to the credibility of the Book of Mormon and proves that Joseph Smith did NOT copy the Isaiah words from the bible into the Book of Mormon.
Great video
Good video.
The idea of JS copying Isaiah from the KJV doesnt bother me at all. What shook me were the sections taken from the New Testament.
Great debunking!! I was recently asked this?DEUTERO-ISAIAH Problem (as it relates to the Book of Mormon), Isaiah chapters:
Ch. 1-39 1st/Proto-Isaiah, in Jerusalem, Nephi left with brass plates, author believe Israel can’t be conquered
Ch. 40-55 2nd/Deutero-Isaiah, 587bc captivity/exiled to Babylon, anyonymous author,
Ch. 56-66 3rd/Trito-Isaiah , back in Jerusalem, another anonymous author.
Scholarly consensus is that Isaiah chapters 40-46 were not written by 8th century Isaiah son of Amoz, but were written by others after the Jews were “destroyed around 587BC just after Lehi left town with the brass plates. Therefore, Nephi could have only had chapters 1-39, but problematically he quotes deuteron-Isaiah chapters which had not yet been written from his brass plates into the Book of Mormon. He quotes it in King James Version style and includes KJV errors.
The CES Letter isn't as thorough as other documents or writings, such as by Dan Vogel. It's just that the information is easily digestable in the CES Letter. It's easier to understand and is more to the point, though it does leave out some important details in order to accomplish this. If you really wanted to combat the historic evidence against JS, I would try debunking Dan Vogel or Fawn Brodie
Can you cover why the church still uses The Pearl of Great Price in church doctrine even though it was proven to be falsified when scholars translated the papyri that Joseph smith found in the mummy sarcophagus he purchased off a traveling exhibitor and proved them to be pages from the book of the dead which was very common in eqyptian culture to bury with their dead and did not match Joseph’s translation of it in any way?
This has nothing to do with this video, but it just occurred to me while studying that south/Central America is the land of Manasseh and North America is the land of Ephraim. It would clear up a lot of confusion and explain why Moroni would travel to up state New York to deposit the plates.
Where does it say that Joseph owned a 1769 version of the Bible? Did he actually just say hey I own a 1769 version of the KJV Bible?
I read the JST. The age of baptism is 8. When I told my 5 year old son about this, that is important he gets baptized at 8, and his heart was touched. His eyes got so big and and he said, "MAMA! My heart jumped out of my chest!"
The Holy Ghost himself has confirmed to me Joseph Smith is truly a prophet and the JST is true.
8:05 oh! Down goes Jeremy! 🥊
I informed the CES Letter of Paul Gregersen debunking the Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith. Did I receive a response? Nope.
A charmer...one who uses charms. Pretty much the same thing.
Yes
The time you guys have putted into this is insane and I, for one, am happy to have this resource if I ever know of someone strugling with the CES Letter issues, to refer them to. Kudos to you.
One thing you should know is that the printer did not always use the manuscript he was given beiause he added the putcuation
What are you talking about? There was no punctuation in the Book of Mormon manuscript that was used by the printer. All the punctuation was added
@@Kaydubbbb because there was not punctuation on the printers manuscript, sometimes the printer copied from the KJV Bible of the time because it was easier for him and he didn't have to put thought into the punctuation.
The printers manuscript still exists to check the words. I wonder if there were any word errors in the Isaiah chapters Comparing the printers manuscript to the first edition of the Book of Mormon. In that case I would like to look at the printers manuscript and see what all of the Isaiah chapters looked like I. Et Royal skousen already did the research on that.
Also, I think it would have been difficult to make a copy from the KJV to the original dictated text of the Book of Mormon without accidentally including the punctuation from the KJV. Did Oliver add any punctuation to the original in the Isaiah chapters? I wonder
@@Kaydubbbb it's Royal Skousen's research is why we know the printer didn't always use the printers manuscript, and he has stated as much in some of his lectures.
We do not know a lot that much about the instructions Joseph was given for the translation process. Would it bother me if the instructions given him were that he should just use the KJV as a guide with so me variation for the Isaiah chapters? Not a bit.
If the Lord’s intention was for the translation of the Isaiah portions to closely match the KJV, which it obviously was His intention, could the Lord reveal that wording? Of course. Maybe what the CES people’s problem is they just believe in a God that is powerful enough to do such a thing. Obviously, they don’t believe God is capable of restoring His true Church to the Earth.
I understand that the Book of Mormon Isaiah is close to the Dead Sea scrolls Isaiah more so than the King James
One thing the 'anti' claims do is cherry pick one particularity and try and discredit it. Then at a glance seeing all these aspects supposedly discredited it seems overwhelming. But, take Joseph and EVERYTHING he did it's an absolute impossibility that one man did so much in so little time. Just the BofM as a literary work has never been duplicated let alone something chock full of spiritual and doctrinal insight. Doctrine so clear that it is shocking. He was no ordinary man. Also, no 'anti' will tell you to pray about their words. They want you to take them at face value. This is a spiritual matter and Joseph tells us to take it to God. Sorry, truth comes from one source and that is from the Lord
NEWS FLASH: It was almost one year between the loss of the 116 pages and when Oliver Cowdery became Joseph's scribe. So, we know Joseph had at least this long to formulate and write stories down. We know that Joseph and Hyrum had access to Dartmouth College theology writings of Professor John Smith and his students Ethan Smith (VOTH) and Solomon Spalding (religious fiction author). In fact, we know from the Dartmouth college archives that Hyrum attended theology classes with Indians as part of the Dartmouth college prep/convert school
Ata least one of the Isaiah chapters was just joseph reciting it from memory as a way to show the way translation was being done.
lol that new literal translation “literally” killed the CES letter 🤣
Amen
A soothsayer or fortune-teller was a con-artist. They only PRETENDED to see into the future. They didn't ACTUALLY see the future. It was just a con game! A person who is PRUDENT isn't foretelling the future like a con artist (in order to trick you). Rather, a prudent person is one who plans for the future. A prudent person is one who can look at past seasons and "predict" or forecast what the next season might be like. It's not a "trick" but rather a common sense approach to preparing for a possible outcome. For example, if you live in a geographic area where it snows in the winter, then a prudent person will take precautions or prepare for the next winter, "fore-seeing" that it may very well snow again in the upcoming winter. This doesn't mean this prudent person is a charlatan con artist who only PRETENDS to "see" or predict a future weather forecast. In fact, our own Meteorologists "predict" or "forecast" what the weather and temperatures will be. Are they also divinely inspired soothsayers and fortune tellers? No!
I was listening to Rabbi Jared, that’s what I call him 😂, on Unshaken and he explains the word picture.
Listen to is lesson on Isiah 2. He explains it.
Love the show!!!
Jeremy popped out something most readers will take it at face value knowing will think it as true. But with a little digging with the right program, there are no problems. Jeremy is a bser.
You folks are doing a great job thank you
The first thing I want verified, is that the edition Joseph Smith owned was indeed the 1769 version.
Since he didn't own it until after the publication of the Book of Mormon, I am not sure how relevant the specific edition is.
The CES letter is fighting against Zion. Wo, wo, wo unto those who try to use it against the Church.
"And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it."
1 Nephi 22:14
You should always be skeptical of people that dedicate their lives to "debunking" a religion instead of moving on with their lives.
Prophet's of, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS: ADAM-MALACHI-JOSEPH SMITH-NELSON
I love this channel!!
It's quite simple folks. This is a nothingburger. Imagine that Joseph HAD put in all the best 21st century words that the CES letter is complaining about. Then throughout LDS history people would have spent way too long "looking past the mark" and trying to figure out why Joseph said "grievously afflict" instead of "honor", or any of 1000 other changes -- when nearly all of these don't matter.
So the best thing for the Lord to do is to copy the KJV wording exactly, only making obvious changes or additions when the Lord really wants to teach us something. Basically the Lord is telling us between the lines that the KJV was good enough, warts and all, except in a few places where the Lord wanted to add a thing or two.
Isaiah etc is complicated enough, do you really want the Lord to have instructed Joseph to pepper it with all these 21st century best-knowledge words, and to cause us more mental stress to understand it for the last 200 years as we struggle to compare each jot and tittle with the KJV? No. Far better he just give us the KJV and add only the important changes.
The Lord is trying to keep things simple and help us not look past the mark -- and what do we do? We look past the mark. CES letter = case in point.
NEWS FLASH: It was almost one year between the loss of the 116 pages and when Oliver Cowdery became Joseph's scribe. So, we know Joseph had at least this long to formulate and write stories down. We know that Joseph and Hyrum had access to Dartmouth College theology writings of Professor John Smith and his students Ethan Smith (VOTH) and Solomon Spalding (religious fiction author). In fact, we know from the Dartmouth college archives that Hyrum attended theology classes with Indians as part of the Dartmouth college prep/convert school
@@howardedward5339May God bless you my brother, I wish you only the best.
@@SwordOfLaban I pray your eyes be open to the truth before you meet the True God and face the lies of Joseph eternally in hell.
@@howardedward5339I'm enjoying this convo :). May God bless you eternally, my brother and neighbor.
Hayden, I am so impressed by the effort you put into these videos. Thank you for doing and sharing your work and findings. You are amazing!
This is way off topic, but the white and delightsom Nephites wore clothing were building houses and buildings. The dark and filthy Lamanites only wore a loin cloth and were lazy. They laid out in the sun all day. They were very tan. When the Lamanites became Nephites their behavior changed and they weren’t tan anymore.
One thing to remember is the ONLY TRUE translation is the one Joseph Smith received directly from from the inspiration of the Holy Ghost as the Lord wanted it to read. It doesnt matter if it matches any other translation that was taken from ancient manuscripts that were copies of what? Tell if I am wrong ,but no original manuscripts penned by the prophets even exists.
I read the Book of Mormon and followed Moronis advice. Received a witness of the Spirit and know it is true. That is the only true test.
I have been spending a great deal of time on how we are to question things. I have come to the following conclusion. Often times we are asking the wrong question or rather our questions are improperly formed. Our question are formed to support a predetermined conclusion. This is the basis of science. It does not work well with relation to God. When asking questions about God we should be asking questions that will bring us closer to God or elevate our worship of God. People that are trying to disprove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon or the reality that Joseph Smith is prophet , etc. IMO are not motivated to elevate their worship of God. They are not trying to get closer to God. Their purpose is to justify their belief system and not have it challenged while demanding others to turn away from their belief system. That is not God's way. It is not the way that Christ used. Imissionaries
I still attend LDS church but do not believe... That said since my shelf broke and I no longer believed in Mormonism, I feel I'm closer than ever to a loving God who is not the polygamous, racist, homophobic and sexist God the Mormon leaders claim to speak for. I've prayed to question all of these things and felt that he answered that he is not any of those things.
@@benkenlaude3301 The fact that you made such a statement both supports what I wrote and demonstrates that you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
@@justmyopinion80 What's your polygamous, racist, homophobic and sexist Mormon God got to do with me understanding the Mormon gospel? For your own pride, I do understand it as a 30+ year TBM who spent thousands of hours studying until I finally came to the conclusion that God is love and not some bigot mixed up with some old men with biases claiming to speak on behalf of God and asking for 10% for their $150,000,000,000 cash fund!
Your cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias will keep you thinking you're right but I pray one day you'll see the true light and leave such a toxic organisation behind to find the true loving God.
Scriptures of, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS:BIBLE, BOOK of MORMON, D &C, PEARL of GREAT PRICE.
Do people honestly believe the Lord’s gospel should be different in the Bible when the Book of Mormon relates to certain phrases? It’s not using any common sense. Some things are bound to be similar.
Hey bro, where’d you get your necklace? I want one!!
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