Is Messi the best player of all time?
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Does Lionel Messi have to win the World Cup in order to be unequivocally named the Greatest Football Player of All Time? Why has the debate around Messi's greatness endured?
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#Messi #argentina #WorldCup
He's EASILY the greatest. Its already set in stone. a World Cup win is just to complete his trophy cabinet + the cherry on top
amen bruv
Absolutely correct. It would also be fun to watch the meltdown of Penaldo fans if Messi lifts the WC
@@gouravghosh588 bruh noone even talked about ronaldo here why is he living rent free in ur head
@@franalytics5995 Goes to show who is living rent free is who's head. I just said it would be funny to watch the meltdown of Penaldo fans. He doesn't live my head, because I don't even consider him a rival to Messi
@@gouravghosh588 the comment was about Messi's obvious greatness and brilliance, and how he's the clear goat and then u say i can't wait to see the meltdown of penaldo fans, u don't need to disrespect Ronaldo and act like a toxic Twitter npc, we weren't even talking about ronaldo or his fans, get Ronaldo outta ur head boi
He is the best player at 35 at the world cup most goals Most assists Most chances created. He was the goat before the world cup even now
no he isn't.
@@ElDragow damn you make some great points
@@ElDragow stick to anime weeb đ
Doesn't Greizmann have the record for most chances created in the world cup 2022?
@@charliegreen4588 if Iâm not mistaken yes. Messi is 2nd. He created one less chance than griezman. Itâs still great tho. Having the 2nd most created chance in World cup
If Messi was only one of the greatest dribblers of all time, then it's a debate over whether he is indeed the greatest of all time.
The issue is... he will also go down as one of the greatest goal-scorers of all time, with 91 goals in ONE YEAR IS ABSURD... it is absolutely ridiculous his proficiency at scoring.
But then you add the fact that he's not simply those two things... he will go down as one of the GREATEST direct creators, how many times have you seen Messi slip in players 1 on 1 with defence-splitting balls. Then add on the passing - the weight of pass is crazy, he can hit switches like nothing.
THEN ADD ON TO THE FACT, HE'S AN ELITE ELITE PLAYMAKER... how many times is this guy going to drop deep and start plays, create combinations and transition the game forward
Fucking alien of a player
To me what makes Messi so much better than anyone else is that, if he had not scored a single goal in his entire career but kept everything else as it is now, we'd still be talking about him as the best playmaker and one of the best players in history
But he scored goals, 800 of them, he's just so good at every single attacking aspect of the game that we kind of "forget" that he's also the best finisher in modern football history, so much so that Ronaldo unfairly got that title, Messi is untouchable
About 10 years ago Barcelona thrashed Real Madrid by scoring 5 goals. Messi didnât score a single goal in that match but he was still MOTM, thatâs the kind of impact he has even when not scoring.
@@nazmulbhuiyan1982 That game is so iconic. I remember watching Messi slowly walking off the pitch looking like he had just defeated an army.
Its not the records or the silverware, its the Football and the lasting memory that leaves in all of us.
Just watch him play.. The Greatest.
Messi is so good. That you just don't know what to talk about. The goals? The dribbles ? The playmaking? The longevity? The achievements ? Every aspect tick marked in big bold letters. Every other player has got one or the other, Messi got all of that and that too he's been better than anyone else in all of those areas individually taken ! Man we're just truly blessed !
Not seen or never will see a player who dominated all the attacking aspects of the game like Messi. For people who constantly watch football matches, there never was a debate.
Couldn't agree more
Explain how he dominates all the attacking aspects
Ronaldo is literally better.
@@csbdcsbd8728 playmaking. dribbling and goalcoring and set pieces he is the best at all of them
@@Zakaria_cfc so he's the greatest goalscorer of all time? With the most goals? Interesting. That's news to me
None can be compared to him, he's the greatest footballer to play the game.
Ronaldo is literally better.
@@ElDragow drugs are not good for you nor anyone, unless prescribed by a doctor.
@@ElDragow at what? For me Ronaldo slightly edges Messi at goal scoring but thatâs it.
@@Ar021 even then Messiâs goal per game ratio is better, heâs got more golden boots, record for most goals in a year and season, more goals in finals and more goals from the bench.
@@ElDragow Go and check the stats then. Messi is above Ronaldo on almost every metric, except for headers. He has the better dribbling, passing and even edges him on goal scoring. Next to that he has a ton more assists than him, and the superior vision. Although Ronaldo is definitely one of the best players to ever grace the pitch, Messi still edges him. I also have never seen Ronaldo dribbling almost whole teams on a constant basis, as if he was still in school. The amount of solo goals Messi made is insane. I really do not understand why this is even a debate, because for me the eye test already shows who the better one is.
Unpopular opinion but Pele played with an incredibly strong team and many of his team mates also played in Santos. Maradona at a personal level is a controversial figure, but as a footballer he was a force of nature. As far as Messi goes, I used to think he needed to do more at National level, despite winning Copa America, but now its clear to me whether he wins the world cup or not that he is the best player of all time and thatâs coming from a Madrid fan.
Pele supposedly "won" the World Cup in 1962 when he missed most of the tournament and it was Garrincha that actually carried Brasil to victory.
The Brazilian team Pele played in where mostly filled with Botafogo player there were only three players from santos on the team.
@@gumdeo so youâre going to ignore the other two world cups including the 1972 cup in which he was the best player of the tournament.
@@zeckchi0148 was his team the best by far of any nation in all roles or thatâs something weâre going to ignore?
@@zeckchi0148 No we are not, but you have to consider the difference in leading an underdog to victory, and being part of the strongest team which wins the tournament easily. The first is an infinitely more difficult task, and hence is given far more respect. Pele as you mentioned has one in 1972, which IMO is more valuable than other 2 combined.
Similarly although Maradona has only one, his performance in 1986 is so dominating that single one is already good enough.
Same for Messi that is if he manages to win.
Nowadays, football is a team sport more than ever. How many times we have seen a whole team come up with a strategy to beat Messi only for them to fail? How many times we have seen a whole team set up in a way only to stop Messi's free kick and fail? Plus nowadays even an average footballer has to be way more athletic to compete. It's way more difficult today to be an exceptional player. Messi has even proven at 35 years old that he is a class above the most gifted physical players like Haaland and Mbappe. The longevity this guy has achieved has never been seen before. Yes, Maradona was exceptional but for how many years? It was like Ronaldinho. He was the best player in the world but only for a few seasons. Messi has been dominating the stage for 16 years. It's unreal. Now at 35 and he is better than Haaland and Mbappe. For me, if you have to be considered the best you need to have this kind of contributory factor. Not a world cup. In order to win the world cup you need first of all luck. To be born in a country that can win it and secondly to have good enough teammates that can contribute in those exact moments.
Spot on
By your own definition Messi is the greatest today, but Pele is the greatest of all time. Pele consistently scored ~40% of Brazil's world cup goals in four World Cup tournaments spanning 12 years, winning three of them with the first being won at aged 17. That's another league entirely. I believe in the Pantheon of Football it will be Pele, Maradona, Messi. If Messi wins this World Cup he will surpass Maradona in that respect for sure.
@@houseofvenusMD I don't put so high the world cup. Many things can go wrong. As I said, it's a team game. If France for example win Dembele will get the medal. Does it mean that hibis better than Messi? Absolutely not. Another factor is that you can be the MVP of the tournament and still don't win anything. To be more clear, Messi did everything correct with the game against the Dutch, but if Martinez didn't had catch those penalties Argentina would be out. So Messi "greatness" depends on others too.
@@houseofvenusMD im sorry but the level of Pele's oppositions compared to what Messi and CR7 faced week in week out for 16 to 20 years straight,nah not even close.Pele is one of the greats but Messi is clear for sure
The idea that Maradona carried a poor Argentina team is false. Yes, heâs obviously the main man that was running the team, but that Argentina team were actually one of the strongest. Valdano, Burruchaga, Ruggeri and Batista. Valdano scored 4G 1A, Burruchaga 2G 2A. And they were experienced, Valdano was Real Madrid no.9.
WC22Argentina only just started using Alvarez and Enzo, but no one thought they wouldâve been starters by the end of the WC. And compare in terms of quality, Brazil, Portugal, England, France and maybe even Germany are better.
Also, in 1986, they donât have data on players like they do now. The amount of defensive coverages Messi has to deal with is insane (even at 36). No surprise he averages 10 less touches than â86 Maradona.
According to people who actually did research, the narrative that Maradona single-handedly winning for Argentina and Napoli is the most false narratives in all of football history.
Maradona spent 2 seasons at Napoli where he did nothing, itâs only when other offensive players came that they won Calcio.
Maradona was the most fouled player in the '82, '86 and '90 editions of the World Cup. Defenders now can't risk contact like they did in the past. This heavily favours attackers today. Look at how many soft penalties were given in Qatar for comparison. Despite being the most fouled player Maradona was still able to complete the most dribbles per game in World Cup history and lift Argentina to victory.
@@evilestmanlp The season before Maradona joined Napoli they were 1 point away from relegation. The next four years he was Napoli's top goal scorer as a midfielder, taking Napoli from potential relegation and mid-table obscurity into becoming title contenders in only two seasons. This was the first time Napoli had ever won a Scudetto in their history and only the second time a club from Southern Italy had become champion. He did this at a time when Serie A was the strongest league in the world.
@@rohhhann Defenders are much better athletically, technically and tactically. Maradona wouldâve struggled vs low block team in the modern era. There was more space back then. Maradona biggest moments wouldnât have existed because of VAR (E.g. England WCâ86). More pens also means teams are also able to score more when theyâre totally defeated. Just like the Mbappe pen when France were losing 2-0.
Also Iâve seen teams try physically assault Messi since 2005 (South American games and prime El Clasico for example).
@@evilestmanlp exactly. But donât get it twisted, him being the leader, the main goal contributor, the main playmaker shows he did âcarryâ the team to an extent. But the idea he didnât have top quality teammates, who then were able to carry him in 1990 is crazy revisionism.
Maradona is one of the goat/all timer, but lets put respect on Real Madridâs number 9 Valdano and those guys đ. Messi had Lautaro playing against him the whole tournament and had no Di Maria until the final.
That 1986 Argentina team wasn't weak. They won the Copa America without Maradona. This Argentine team without Messi could never.
Argentina won Copa America in 1991 with different players.
@@rohhhann yes and they also reached 1990 WC final đ€·đ»ââïž where Maradona had 0 goals the entire tournament
Argentina from 1986 to 1993 were very goodâŠMaradona single handedly didnât carry anyoneâŠthatâs just a false narrative
Argentina could win the Copa America without Messi. They'd still be ranked second best team without him
@@vb2388 Maradona played with an injury in WC 90 where they won only 2 games en route to the final. He wasn't physically 100% but still helped them to another final. He was voted the 3rd best player despite this. In 1986 Argentina doesn't win the World Cup without Maradona. All Argentina's playmaking went through him. That side was more reliant on Maradona than Argentina is to Messi.
@@vb2388 Two players from 1986 were in 1991 and 1993 squads. Oscar Ruggeri and reserve GK Luis Islas. Maradona carried a different group of players to glory.
Why do you say that â86 Arg team is weaker than today? Any evidence? i watched that entire WC and that Arg team was incredible in defense and made counter ops for Maradona. Maradona didnt win that on his own either.
I think that was his point, that in reality saying one team was stronger may be incorrect because a lot of those players might have been forgotten to time
Stats
look at the team player by player by player, bench by bench
86 goalie was weaker for a start...
And Carlos Bilardo was a smart muthafucka
Messi is basically Maradona + the goals. We've seen pace merchants (Mbappe,Ronaldo) and pure poachers (Haaland, Ronaldo, Gerd Muller) come along in every generation. But we have yet to see players like Maradona and Messi dribble and passing/playmaking ability with the ball. The fact Maradona was even in the goat debate with Pele when Pele scored a outrageous amount of goals while Maradona doesn't really have big goal scoring numbers says it all. Football ability matters.
Not to forget, Messi is also in the conversation for best playmaker ever too, alongside players like Cruyff and Zidane in that regard
To reduce Mbappe and Ronaldo(Portuguese or Brazilian) to pace merchants is criminal, no ball knowledge
Pace merchants - messi is as fast
Poachers - messi scores more
Creators - messi assists more
@@Sircoochie Messi does not have a lot of pace since like 2013 or 2014 where he had a bunch of injury issues. In a full sprint, many players would beat him. But he still has great acceleration and deceleration, excellent dribbling, and good upper body strength which allows him to make up for it.
You say merchant like it's a useless part of the game so can we say ball control merchant or assist merchant? đ You're crazy . And ronaldo has many assist and many parts to his game
Even if Messi wins the World Cup, Shaka from ESPN would rank him #10 in his world famous power rankings
yes he is discussion is over
shouldn't even be a discussion obj
Earlier the debate was messi to win the cup and now hater will say he will won, but with a stronger team?
How could just a span of 20 days decide who's better at mere footballing abilities.
Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: Yeeeeessssss
I feel like Messi has had all time great moments, statistics and awards in every competition heâs played in. Domestic League, Domestic Cup, Champions League, Copa America and in 2014 he had an amazing World Cup but we hadnât seen him score in the KO stages and this World Cup heâs added that to his career. Thereâs no competition you can say that Messi hasnât left an all time great legacy in and itâs so difficult to say that thatâs not what makes someone the greatest of all time.
He was already greatest of all time many years ago like Arsene Wenger said.
Thank you TIFO for the most calm and rational discussion about the places of Messi and CR7 in the pantheon of Football. I especially like the idea of the greatest player in the world being ephemeral pre Messi/CR7 and the idea of Messi/CR7 as representative of football ideology. I hadn't considered that.
Thereâs an interview clip in âMessi: A God Amongst Menâ where the interviewer asks (not sure the interviewee):
- Whoâs better Messi or Ronaldo?
- Messi
- Why?
- Messi is natural
I agree thereâs something mechanical about Ronaldo thatâs awe-inspiring. But I get this emotional, almost spiritual feeling while watching Messi.
The reason I think why the World Cup doesn't matter with being the goat, is when players like George Best are mentioned, If Maradona, Pele, Messi, Ronaldo, Cruyff, Maldini, Cristiano etc all played for the Faroe Islands (not at the same time) then they have 0 chance of any international success, but that does not discredit them one iota from being great. Messi is the greatest at LEAST of this generation with or without a World Cup, but the sad thing is he NEEDS to win it to convince people of the already obvious truth.
Is Messi the best player ever? Let's wait until he's 35 and then let the result of one game decide. Seems like a logical way to evaluate his entire body of work.
Exactly what I have been saying for ages now. A player doesnât win a world cup, a team does. So judging a player based on team succes is just dumb. Look at what the player does individually on the field to judge him. Messi is the best, even if he plays for the worst team in the world and doesnât win a team trophy⊠A player like Haaland wonât win a single trophy for his nation, does that make him a worse player than âworld cup winner MbappĂ©â? Letâs see if MbappĂ© would win the world cup for NorwayâŠ.
@@ielitecod933Mbappe is better than Haaland
I think if you answer this question with any certainty, all you're saying is that you haven't considered the question enough. Hardly anyone working in football media or closely watching the game today has enough of an idea of just *how good* Pelé was, or Maradona, or Di Stefano, or Puskas, or Cruyff, or Garrincha, or whoever. Even those who were alive then and are alive now are so frequently dismissive of the modern crop of players that it just seems like old-peopleness.
All I can say, all any of us can really say, is who is the best we've seen. And if you're my age, the best you've seen is Messi. There are no questions about it.
@Netaji-The British Slayer I think Puskas and Garrincha fall short of GOAT standards, but I think they deserve consideration for top 10, maybe even top 5. I can't say for sure, because I haven't watched them like that.
I am old enough to have watched all the greats from Pele, through Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff, George Best, Beckenbauer, Maradona and a few not so well known, such as Jimmy Johnson, Jim Baxter, Stanley Matthews (played till he was 50) and many more..
For many years, Pele was the best player I had ever seen but the little man from Argentina, tops them all..
In general I agree, many people will tend to favour players they saw in their youth or who played for their teams, countries etc. Not all do. They love the art, skill and entertainment provided by the greats. The little man from Argentina was gifted by evolution and genetics with a set of skills, that he honed by practice and hard work, into the greatest player I have ever seen..
Yes some could jump higher, hit a ball harder, juggle the ball a little more deftly or run faster but Messi can do ALL of those, things, to an extremely high level. The others had maybe one or two of those skills, he has ALL of them.
@@AndyCampbellMusic incredible to hear your perspective, Andy! The best part of the internet is getting to see this sort of stuff.
@@AndyCampbellMusic damn sir, just how old are you? hope you have good life
Very reasonable comment, I approve
One of the best discussions I've heard on the subject. I wish there was more content like this available.
Messi is the goat whether he wins the World Cup or not but if he wins the trophy heâs only going to distance himself from the rest of the goat candidates. With that said my list is
1. Messi
2. Maradona
3. Pele
4. C. Ronaldo
5. Zidane
6. Beckenbauer
7. Ronaldo (Brazilian)
8. Ronaldinho
9. George Best
10. Cruyff
nice list::: I will only alter the list by putting cruyf at 5, put 6 at 10.
As someone new to football (soccer) in the past few years, love the channel and this particular episode really resonated. Coming as a hockey fan, I see a lot of the parallels in the Messi-Ronaldo debate with Crosby-Ovechkin. Fascinating points that really made a lot of sense.
I got into soccer because of Thierry Henry and the invincibles. I thought, âman football will never get better than thisâ. And then I witnessed Messi and Ronaldo, and I was completely wrong lol. Iâm just happy I got to witness it.
Ronaldo - all time great level goal scorer, has won everything at an individual and club level, champion of his continent, countless records
Messi - all that + a World Cup while being one of the greatest playmakers this game as ever seen.
I think the big misconcept when people talk about Messi is how inconceivable his ability is, and in return we should not aspire to it. I have heard a few commentators say, Messi way of playing is so inexplicable that coaches shouldnt tell their students to learn from Messi on account of the sheer talent he possess. He is magician of the sport, and very few can do what he does, but this magical aspect of his gameplay diminishes the very hard--earned intelligence aspect that comes into play. And although many would only dream to dribble like Messi, many of his other godly abilities are still rooted in a great understanding of the game. Passing and vision especially. Whilst his dribbling and finishing is absolutely phenomenal, whast makes Messi so efficient is how he reacts to each opportunity. He is by far the most rational player in the game. He never waste any chances, never tries for 40-yard screamers, everything is purposeful. He is a master of reading the game and renown for almost 'dissappearing' 15-20 minutes of the match to analyse the best way to approach the defender at any particular game. This intelligence is to me what makes Messi the GOAT
It is extremely difficult to say, comparing players is always a hard thing to do given that each player is different in both position on the pictch aswell as playing style, but each player is also at the mercy of factors beyond their control. You don't win games/titles alone, football is a team sport.
In the end, by a very slim margin, Messi is the best for me tho.
Players like CR7, R9, Maradonna, Pele (and more i'm forgetting) are close behind Messi and maybe recency bias is also at play here, but all things considered i think Messi is the best.
i agree with your entire logic, but for me Ronaldo is slightly better than all the rest, but i agree 100% with your theory, and i would actually say ronaldo and messi stand alone as the goats
cant compare people of different generations football's a completely different game now than 20 years ago never mind 30, 50, 80 years ago, but he's far and away the best of his generation
How is he far and away the best of his generation
@@csbdcsbd8728 He's statistically the best goalscorer, best playmaker, best dribbler, and most influential player of this era. While Ronaldo may come close to his raw goal tally, Messi is the most complte attacking player of this generation by a mile.
@@csbdcsbd8728 because of how he plays football better than anyone
@@nicolasho7664 but why are you using just dribbling as an example. Why do you fair to give out loads of attributes such as Ronaldo being arguably the best header of all time?
@@chris_bfc_9071 right nice response but how does he play football better than anyone
10:50 Great observation!!
If he wins this world cup he'll be the greatest of all time, absolutely no contest.
I mean Ronaldo in my opinion is close, but after that there is no contest whatsoever.
Ronaldo will be remembered for the sheer drive and dedication to football and his clutch moments can't be overlooked,
But Messi will be remembered by his pure "playing with the ball" moments.
Both of them are great in their own ways, but as I said Messi will come out on top.
which 'clutch' moments? genuinely interested to know
@@arnold-hu4vkHe has many
So does and heâs got a world cupđ
Hindsight 2022..... Now hes the g.o.a.t.. no questions asked. 2 goals and thats Minor in the grand Scope of things. His leadership in this WC was legendary. And im brazillian ffs.
One way to end the comparison (or prove that it never existed) is this: How long can you sit through a highlights reel of Messi's plays vs one of Ronaldo's?
Ronaldo's highlights are easily better and more varied, messi's are boring and the same
@@ElDragow Then there is no comparison for you, right?
All of Messi's goals are the same.
@@ElDragow delusional
I can watch hours and hours of messi, but only 1 hour of Ronaldo. The way Messi still has the ball in almost all situations is just unreal to me as a guy who loves to dribble
Numbers from 2012 seasson across the globe:
Premier League Champion: Manchester City. 93 goals
League 1 Champion: Montpellier. 68 goals
Serie A Champion: Juventus. 79 goals (Max scorer Zlatan with 28 goals, Max passer Pirlo with 13 assists)
Bundesliga Champion: Borussia Dortmund. 89 goals (Max scorer Huntelaar with 29 goals, Max passer RiverĂ with 12 assists)
Monster-Peak Leonel: 91 goals and 37 assists
Literally, the guy was scoring as much as the best teams of the other leagues, while doubling (and even tripling) the amount of assists of the best passers of each one of those leagues.
How can you do that, is beyond human understanding.
It was never a debate. It was just so satisfying he won the WC with style and humiliated all the haters
He is now đ
YES... He's cemented his place now that his won the big one!
I have never seen anyone played football like that ! Scoring amazing goals week in week out and dribbling past defenders like against school boys plus the vision of his passing .....but we'll miss him .
Why is it during these debates Messiâs entire creative assist numbers arenât weighted as they should be. Since Messi has made his debut in football. Heâs scored more goals than anyone else including Ronaldo all while providing far and away more assists than anyone else. How is this even possible⊠and why is this not given the reverence it deserves. Goal scoring is one thing but to score the most while also create the most⊠well thatâs simple never in the history of football been achieved.
Messi is clinical never ever seen such a finishing before so cold so clean his precision, Vision, Ball controll is unbelievable. On the other Hand CR7 who is the hardest worker out there with a strong will and Personality. Throw them both in their prime in a Team together and give them mates that like modric and Co. and they will beat a Team with Pelé and Maradona
Its easily Messi. Cristiano has never had that Genius quality that makes people unable to comprehend and applaud brilliance. There is only 1 man that has completed Football and its Messi,
Man, I was really hoping for Messi vs Ronaldo final, their last World Cup, both missing that trophy, I would had expected for both to be in the mood and turn back the clock a bit
Timing for ronaldo was all wrong, last season he seemed half decent but his legs now are completely shot
86 side was weaker than this? Check this...
Plus-minus measures the impact of a player on their teamâs performance. Originally invented by hockey general managers, every player on the ice is awarded a plus when their team scores a goal while every opponent player on ice gets a minus. The higher the plus-minus rating, the higher the net positive of goals scored for a playerâs team. In terms of plus-minus, the best player has the highest plus-minus score, and the worst player has the lowest.
1. JuliĂĄn Ălvarez âą Argentina +11
2. Theo HernĂĄndez âą France +10
3. Kylian Mbappé ⹠France +9
Jordan Pickford âą England +9
Jude Bellingham âą England +9
John Stones âą England +9
Hugo Lloris âą France +9
Antoine Griezmann âą France +9
9. Harry Maguire âą England +8
Cristian Romero âą Argentina +8
Luke Shaw âą England +8
Enzo FernĂĄndez âą Argentina +8
CĂ©sar Azpilicueta âą Spain +8
Harry Kane âą England +8
Declan Rice âą England +8
Olivier Giroud âą France +8
Rodrigo De Paul âą Argentina +8
1. Jorge Burruchaga âą Argentina +10
2. Jorge Valdano âą Argentina +9
Oleksandr Zavarov âą Soviet Union +9
Elzo Coelho âą Brazil +9
José Luis Brown ⹠Argentina +9
AlemĂŁo âą Brazil +9
Nery Pumpido âą Argentina +9
Edinho âą Brazil +9
Branco âą Brazil +9
Oscar Ruggeri âą Argentina +9
Careca âą Brazil +9
Leovegildo Lins da Gama JĂșnior âą Brazil +9
Diego Maradona âą Argentina +9
JĂșlio CĂ©sar âą Brazil +9
Carlos Roberto Gallo âą Brazil +9
Ricardo Giusti âą Argentina +
Statistically, the 1986 team was better as they had more players with +9 and +10 than the 2022 side.
It's not even up for debate anymore. MESSI is the GOD of football let alone đ
If we talk about national teams, winning a world cup is definitely important. Now comparing individuals, it makes sense to me to use individual achievements and stats.
He did it !!
Portugal team on paper twice as good as Argentina. Says it all
Before the final: yes, he is
After the final: yes, and now the debate is over
I don't know if he's the best ever but he was already on the mount rushmore before the world cup. I'm 32 and he is the best i've ever seen by some distance.
Fuck yeah he's the clear GOAT
Yes
Has there been any objective analysis done on factors that determine GOAT status? Would see something on this topic from #tifo folks!
love the point about them occupying different ideological spaces. CR7 stands for excellence through sheer hardwork determination while messi is that unquantifiable thing aka genius. both have a sprinkle of both but broadly speaking that's what they represent. I'll always give the nod toward genius.
For me the meaning behind the best player is (a) the one that is able to produce the best football at crucial times to win a game, (b) plays with skill and ability on and off the ball, and (C) produces moments that you are happy to watch over and over again and is not just about kicking a ball in triangles every 5-10 yards around people.
Messi leads the way in all 3 criteria and add to that his longevity I cannot see how it is a discussion.
Pele was the poster boy for football and to win 3 world cups is outstanding but the teams he played in were outstanding.
Maradonna is someone that won things on his own, and some of the things he could do just blows your mind.Interestingly he looked up to George Best who because of where he lived never got to play in a world cup and so is never spoken about in these conversations. But when Messi copied Maradonna's goal and then exceeded it on more than 1 occasion then we would have to say he is the best.
Ironically i do not like these conversations i just like seeing good players show not just their skills but their will to win because without that they do not get anywhere
1:45 there is a weird narrative that Maradona dragged his teams and although I wasnât there to dispute this with my own experience, with the information available I donât think thatâs a fair conclusion. Argentina won the World Cup in 1978 without Maradona, won it in 1986 with Maradona a masterclass and then reached the finals again in 1990 when Maradona objectively (both statistically and in the opinion of people that watched) played poorly.
The 78 WC was a fix, we know that now. The rest I agree with and I'm old enough to remember Mexico 86
YES
My Goat Lionel Messi.
If Mbappe wins the world cup and champions league with PSG, where would he rank?
Messi was so far ahead of everyone even before the World Cup IMO, but now it should not even be debated.
The Goat đ completed football at the age of 35.
The Greatest Football Player Of All Times. đ
Champs:
U-20 WC 2005
Olympic Gold Medal 2008
Copa America 2021
Finalissima 2022
World Cup 2022
âââ
yes
to those who play football knows Messi is clearly miles ahead of Cristiano, there was never a debate
Halaand and Mbappe will never reach the heights of Ronaldo and Messi. Yes those strikers will score goals, and a lot of them. However, Messi and Ronaldo have done transcends all the goals they scored. Especially Messi, he completely eclipsed Maradona and Pele. When people talk about Messi they compare him with Maradona or Pele, but when people talk about Ronaldo, they compare him to Messi. There is a level, that I think neither Mbappe or Halaand will ever reach.
If Messi was English, he would have been declared the best ever 5 years back.
These debates are useless.
Ha! If Messi was English, he would be Sir Lionel Messi by now.
He was declared the best ever in 2011âŠ
Cristiano Ronaldo is the greatest human footballer of all time. Messi and Maradona are from another planet.
Ronaldo is literally better.
@@ElDragow but he isnât, open your eyes . Ronaldo is useless without a goal
Prove it
@@ElDragow Such a ridiculous fanboy opinion, you like all Ronaldo cheerleaders clearly havenât watched Messiâs career.
In 1986 final Maradona didn't score, but he did provide assist for the 3rd goal and Argentina beat west Germany 3-2.
1) Messi
2) Pele
3) Maradona
My personal top 3.
Maradona carried Jose Brown to start in World Cup final. At the time Brown was a third division player in Argentina. The lack of quality in that Argentina side that he dragged to wins in historic ways isnât mentioned enough.
That being said Messi would be greater if he wins on Sunday imo. World Cup is to big of a trophy not to win as the goat.
Just because deportivo Español are bad now doesn't mean they were always like that... in the 85/85 season they were in the top division and ended second in the league, in large part because of Brown...
@@belugatheband2023 they played in the Argentine 3d division please look it up
@@razino5963 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportivo_Espa%C3%B1ol
They had their best ever season in 85-86 finishing 2nd in the top division.
Maradona or messi? are you guys kidding? both !!!!!! the only thing you have to look is the human part and the records !!!! messi he is humble and a really nice person and hi gives people hope and dreams and that anything is possible
FOR ME MESSI IS NR 1 THE GOAT THE BEST FOOTBALL PLAYER EVER. WC DON'T MATTER HE TOOK THEM 2 THE FINALS 2 TIMES. BUT PEAK PRIME YEARS MESSI AND RONALDINHO IS THE BEST I'VE EVER SEEN AND ENJOYED GENUINELY BUT THE LONGEVITY MESSIđâœïžâ€ïžđŻđȘđđ„°đŁđœđœ HAS PROVEN IS JUST UNMATCHED SO HE TAKES IT BY FAR HE GOT IT ALL.
During their prime, I believe DM is better. However, over the whole career, I think LM is better due to his longevity.
Leo scored 91 goals in his prime
It's just the way he to do it.
You cant say that a team that contained Ruggeri Passarella Burruchaga Valdano Borghi is inferior to the 22 wc squad
Messi didn't need the World Cup to be the Greatest Of All Times, he already was.
He needed it to prove to the rest of the argentinian he could be as great as Maradona was, because at the end, Messi is argentinian, and for an argentinian all that matters is to be viewed as a winner for your country.
Had not Messi won the ultimate trophy, he would have retired being the biggest athlete that has ever walked this world BUT not in Argentina. He would have lived his life under the shadow of Diego.
Now Lio can say he is as great as Diego ever was, and argentinian people finally have surrended to him.
He is the best player in the planet now, AND in Argentina too.
Messi is the goat and it ends there. Its no longer a subjective thing. Pele won 2 world cups and yes i said 2 bc i dont count him playing one game in group stages while garincha won brazil the world cup. Also he arguably had the greatest international teams of all time and no offside rule which significantly helped attackers. Sorry but pele was a great player in his era and thats it. Maradona is better than pele but maradona doesnât come close to messi club achievements and doesnât have a copa america so he also loses to messi. R9 was the most talented footballer ever imo but injuries and not winning the ucl harms his legacy. Dinho had everything and won everything but he just didnât play at the top for too long so messi wins again. Cr37 is not even worth debating sorry
You need to ask a wide age of people that are not only of today's generation
But people from different past era's that watched other great players when they played
It'll boil down to genarational exposure & preference
Probably the wheels are turning for Messi. Messi had to leave last world cup with near humiliation. It is his time now. His team wants to give the WC gift to him. He is the best player by far.
86 Argentina was better than this team. The team was set up to get the best out of Maradona. But those very good players, man.
Anyone who isn't a Ronaldo fanboy (not to take anything away from what he has achieved) & actually watches football, knows there is no debate. Messi is the GOAT whether he wins the WC or not. Even as a Brazil fan, I'm hoping he does though, for his sake & to shut down this 'debate'.
I really struggle to see why people cannot answer this easily. He was for about 12-13 the best dribbler, passer and finisher. If a player is the best at one of these, they are considered great. Anyone in doubt, go back and watch messi from aged 17-30. There is a reason he has over 380 MOTM award đđđđđ insane
Messi. End of story.
Yes anymore questions about him?
Yes easily
Ok winning a trophy doesn't make you a better player. But being the best player in the worlds best team has to give you some kudos.
On top of everything else the answer has to be objectively yes.
It's all subjective though. Football is entertainment snd produces emotional responses. A wolves fan might say steve bull is the greatest player that ever lived and to them that would be 100% correct. But it's an enjoyable discussion.
Messi vs Ronaldo debate had always bored me.
Weâve been blessed to watch two of the greatest footballers to ever kick a ball - and media wants to do is pick a loser.
86 Argentina is not an inferior side at all in comparison to Messi 2022
When u have a striker called bastituta
For me there is no one who is the greatest player of All time yet. Because I view it as impossible. There are many legends and one of the best player of all time that I agreed on, but only one? For me the player must achieve many things and win a lot of competition. Also be protagonist in all. And Messi is now close to become the best player of all time. I never seen this good since 2009 with his Barcelona. Also there is no xavi or iniesta to help. It takes time to come up in the top or be there in a long time. Wins he the World Cup, he will be the best player of all time in my eye
People claim Ronaldo is the best athlete because he's 6'2" with muscles. He played an exciting brand of football for a small amount of time and then became a poacher. Messi has a great physique and is a strong as a bull and has never changed his style of play. He's still exciting at the age of 35 but Ronaldo has become a goalscorer. Tell me Messi isn't the best athlete as well.
Well that's Pelé clearly, man with most cup and did it at the hardest time to be a footbballer
most cup đ
He didnât even play most of the â62 edition. Brazil at the time were the best time in the world with world class players and they showed that by winning once without him.
@@neelanshguptaa1440 does this also apply to Pep's Barça with Iniesta, Dani Alves and Xavi to serve Messi all the goals he scored?
@@gnevescoelho If they served Messi all the goals he scored... why did he continue to set ridiculously high standards without them?
Also, go watch his highlight reel, he wasnât just served the vast majority of goals on a plate.
@@gnevescoelho If Messi were ever injured long enough for Pepâs Barca to win a trophy without him, I guess weâd know.
Picking our martinez when heâs been class for united? Wtf is JJ on with?
YES !!!!
Even if he didnât win the World Cup he is still easily the goat
He isn't. Pelé is and no one will ever be able to take that post. It simply can't be done. Every single thing any modern footballer does, Pelé already did, and many of them he came up with. 3 world cups. Messi is amazing but number 2 at best.
Ronaldo and Messi for me are the undisputed goats. I respect Maradona and Pele, but i honestly think anyone with a footballing brain knows Ronaldo and Messi are the 2 goats. And at that point it's subjective in my opinion how you rank them. Totally different players, totally different styles, totally different journeys.
For me Ronaldo is number 1 and messi is number 2. But Maybe saying Ronaldo is 1.a and Messi is 1.b would be more correct i guess, because thy stand at the top together
Youâre just completely wrong. How can a service player like Ronaldo be better than someone thatâs more complete at attacking? Football is about trophies goals and assists in which Messi is better at in every way. The only reason why ronaldo had a few more goals is because he has 148 games extra played. Additionally, just watch how Messi plays regularly dribbling past 4 players at a time Ronaldo has not done that. Youâre delusional. Messi is in a different stratosphere. Messi is individually the best player to step on the pitch and with 7 Ballon Dors to back it up.
Messi is better at passing shooting dribbling Vision freekicks almost everything except Headers! How is CR7 a better football player thats just illogical
@@mehyeah2931 let's appreciate the opinion guys, for HIM, ronaldo the goat, but for FOOTBALL, messi is clear
Everyone forgets Ronaldo at 35 was tearing up his 3rd major league
in a team that had won the league for the previous 8 or so seasons.
and messi at 35 won the world cup
A league that Quagriella was scoring as well matwđđ
"they need to be nerfed"đ
What do you mean "is"?
Argentina has had a lot of favourable calls go their way this WC, IMO. Could you guys take a look into this? would be interesting to see IMO.
cristiano embodies the "never giving up" & "work hard" mentally and ideologies which makes him one of the best in world to regular joe's because they have someone to look up to who neither had the talent but sheer tenacity to become the best, so to them they can also be the best if they work as hard. i think that's why nike signed him because their ideologies go hand in hand where as with messi it's a different story, the guy is just born with this talent even with challenges he faced growing up, nothing would've stopped him from performing at the level he does. he's just an angel given to us to make football look so easy while performing at the most high. so the debate is always going to be pulled to different directions because of that but for me watching messi always brought joy and amazement & that's why he is the GOAT & which cristiano i can always expect things and i would just appreciate him for that