Im now officially in the "Moash tries to end it all in desperation and Kaladin denies him that chance and drags him through recovery, atonement, and redemption" camp. The moment this came up I was sold. Kaladin''s lesson in forgiveness for himself tying in with his persistent desire to save his companions could come to a head with him saving Moash, the one he refuses to give up on. A scene this epic could easily be 5th oath worthy. Great episode guys!
@Anne Day Holy shit that would be insane. Only question is if that would come up in book 5 or if it would need to wait until the second half of Stormlight.
I think Zuko from ATLA is the best redemption arc of all time. Monstrous through volume 1 and 2 sees the effects of his nations brutality in 3, and spends the rest trying to redeem himself
I wouldn't say he was monstrous in season 2 by any means. He was already set down the path of bettering himself pretty early into the season. The episode 'Zuko Alone' has Zuko come face to face with how his family's atrocities have truly affected civilians in the Earth Kingdom and realizing that simply trying to be their friend cannot make up for the pain he has directly caused them. From the point forward, he seeks out Iroh and spends most of the rest of the season trying to follow his advice. Zuko spends almost the entirety of his time in Ba Sing Se simply laying low and running the tea shop with Iroh, having genuinely given up his life as the crown-prince. His fall back to the Fire Nation at the end of season 2 is so heartbreaking because he spent so much of that season genuinely improving himself. I would argue that season 3 is less about Zuko realizing the horrible person he used to be because he had already realized that in season 2. It was more him realizing that the life he was trying to win back - the reason he committed those horrible acts in the first place - wasn't even a life he wanted to live anymore.
Comatose: "Do you know who that reminded me of, who's actually a good example of hangin' around with the good guys?" Me: "... Szeth!" Comatose: "Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Me: "Oh, ok..." Comatose: "... but also, that's kind of, like, Szeth." Me: "KNEW IT!!"
When Eric was talking about how Dalinar hasn’t been held accountable but he holds himself accountable, it reminds me of Wayne. He doesn’t forgive himself for what he did, but Wax forgives him and the people around him forgive him, but in the eyes of the man’s daughter, he can never be forgiven or redeemed, so he sees himself in that way.
The fact that Moash is blinded at the end of RoW makes me think of an ancient trope: blindness allows for insight. So I wonder if we're gonna get a lot of Vyre introspection in book 5, leading to maybe a redemption arc
The bit about perception of evil is really good. Raboniel was a great character and all, if you conveniently forget that she wiped out 1/10th of a planet's population and would do it again in a heartbeat if it could further her goals...
I was kinda dreading 2 hours of Moash, but the Cosmere Class Analysis was extremely interesting. I rewound that section several times, fantastic stuff.
This might have been one of your best episodes yet as far as critical reading goes - digging into the nitty gritty of the tropes, different outcomes, and how different nuances in how the stories are told impacts the message the author sends to the readers, or how the readers interpret the story (as opposed to just nerding out about the Cosmere lore). Really enjoyed it. Shannon in particular made some really thought provoking points for me.
Really good episode. This has made me thoroughly reassess my previous position on Moash. I was very much in the F Moash camp but on reflection he has been the victim of abuse and systemic oppression for his whole life, and the fact he refused to become the ‘good dark eyes’ and step in line is understandable. Even in RoW arguably he’s still ultimately trying to save Kaladin in his own twisted way - either Kaladin will give his pain over to Odium like Moash did and be free of it, or he’ll free himself through his death. Whether we believe either of those outcomes are desirable, he’s kind of not wrong; Kaladin would be free from his pain in either circumstance.
Alix is wrong at 16:00 - Dalinar asked Cultivation to be forgiven. And she says she can't do that. So she gives the next best thing, which is to take is memories.
This is correct, but that was a decision that Dalinar seemed to make in the moment that he was there (and it seemed to surprise him as well!) When I was bringing up the reasons he went, I was more thinking about the motivations that led him to make the journey out there, and the things he had originally intended to ask! Which, are pretty similar to Moash's desires to have his pain taken away and the guilt removed! But yeah, you're right, I could have been clearer about that.
@@FeatherWriters I completely understand your thinking, but disagrees with it. Because, yes... he wanted the pain to go away... that's why he drunk a lot. But when push comes to shove, what he really really wanted was forgiveness for what he'd done. I think this is distinctively different from Moash. Who's only looking for the pain to go away. And when push comes to shove, will do anything to not feel it anymore. But this is my interpretation only. No one is wrong or right.
This was going to be my point as well. Everytime they said Dalinar and Moash asked for the same thing, but Dalinar got lucky and asked the "good" God, I was hoping someone would make bring up that that isn't what actually happened. In my opinion, that moment is the true moment that Dalinar is redeemed. It's the moment I forgave him, at least. Here he is in front of a God, one known for granting the wishes of mortals, and rather than ask anything, he begs for forgiveness. Had Dalinar not done that, had he gone with his original plan, the comparison between the his and Moash's interactions with Gods would be much more valid and I think Dalinar would be a much less sympathetic character for it.
I don't think it's very fair to be too hard on Szeth for what he did. He was proclaimed Truthless. He hated himself for everything he was forced to do, even simply walking on stone hurt him. He still hears the voices of those that he murdered. Szeth didn't kill people because he was evil, or because he gave in to Odium. Szeth is SO honorable, that he gave up his own free will in consequence of what he believed he did wrong.
I think the issue is diffusion of responsibility. Like in concentration camps the soldiers would say they were just following orders. Szeth was proclaimed truthless, but we see throughout the books that he always wants someone else to make the decisions for him. It’s easy for Szeth to say ‘I’m honorable, I’m just doing this because someone told me to and that’s why it’s their fault’
@@carlsmith4568 Exactly, that's the difference between the two. Moash blames everyone else. He blames the world but Szeth accepts that while he has to Obey. He is still to blame and must accept the crimes on his own soul.
The main difference between Dalinar and Moash is that, after being stripped of his pain, one decides to abandon the path of destruction and the other embraces it. Dalinar chooses to be his better self and to be accountable of his deeds when stripped of his pain, Moash becomes his worst self and is continuosly evading accountability for his actions.
Great take. Never thought about them being men who were at the same point but took different paths. Taking responsibility for one's life is always a great step to take and those two are great examples
I do think that's a good distinction, but also feel that Dalinar took a LONG time to take that first step and had a lot of external help and support to get there. I think a lot of it is that even at his worst we knew what Dalinar would become and that made it easier to bear - whereas with Moash all his betrayal and hurt he puts into the world just hits right in the heart.
@@rashenditrash Dalinar was never satisfied with being a murderer except at a very young age, he always had alcohol problems to cover that, always had deep character problems, but he was willing to change even before being tamed down by his wife, he spent a lot of time setting rules to his fury, the dead of his wife set everything in stone, but he was willing to change since before that event, he was unwilling to kill his brother for his rage, Moash never wanted to let go his hatred, even when he was stripped of his guilt, he doubled down on his hatred, when he had no reason to harm a brother who saved his life, he choosed to make him commit suicide, they are not even comparable. Edit: And the change in Dalinar after being stripped of his pain was instantaneous, while Moash after being stripped of his guilt decided to kill everyone he knows even if they had been friends with him in the past, just for entertaining himself, he has no goal, he's just a psyco with a magic sword.
Yes, but he also got the right assistance at the right time by Cultivation. If that wasn't there then it is likely Dalinar would end up just like Moash. The casters also brought this up and I think it is important. It's not just about doing the right thing, it's also the right opportunity and timely support that also counts.
@@Haxerous For me is more important the personal choice, Odium is not compelling Moash to kill, Cultivation was not compelling Dalinar to grow, both of them only took what was causing pain to Moash and Dalinar, they both had a chance to choose who they wanted to be, Dalinar just after being stripped of his pain and Moash when the voidbringer ask him what he want, Dalinar wanted to be an example to his kids and a support to the legacy of his brother, Moash very clearly choose to be a murderer. Edit: We can see that with Leshwi, she is made of Odium investiture, and she still have honor in her, she choose to be that way, while Moash who is not made of Odium essence is very obsessed with making Kaladin kill himself to be right, because he can't bear the feeling of someone being better than him.
The Adolin Sadeus comparison with Moash Elokhar was frustrating to me. The huge difference that wasn't brought up was that one of those people was actively threatening Adolin and his family, he had already tried to kill Dalinar multiple times and was putting the wellbeing of everyone at risk by his actions. Elokhar didn't even know who Moash was largely. They had both been wronged in the past by the person they killed but only one of them was actively going out of their way to continue to wrong them.
Exactly, and Adolin killing Sadeas was to stop a threat, and all of the shit Sadeas did to the Kholins was within the last couple months. Moash's family has been dead for a good 7+ years. Not even close in terms of time or possible threat to others.
I really appreciated Matt's argument about grey morality. I really feel similarly and I thought it was a create compliment to the earlier point that forgiveness and redemption is inherently unfair
As some who comes from a marginalized community that is often discriminated against for various reason and looked down upon by other I can relate to Moash’s resentment toward light eyes and humanity for how his family was treated by the light-eyed upper class. I hope he get a redemption arch since I can understand his resentment.
I think moash should be redeemed because if he's interacting with dalinar or navani and they confront him with killing elhokar he should push back and stand for it, lighteyes didn't get consequences his (grand)parents got murder for profit. Revenge isn't good but he would never have faced justice, elhokar that is, thus killing him was somewhat legitimate
The seminal modern example of an "atonement" arc that is unsettling, satisfying and seemingly accurate no one mentioned was Bojack Horseman. Bojack faces permanent consequences for patterns he has exhibited despite whether he will do the work or not BECAUSE the people who are impacted by his acts distance themselves from him, removing the crutches.
This was a fascinating discussion. Some thoughts: -If Moash survives, I think that in the back five he will still be coming back and recovering, and I can see this moment where Gavinor goes to kill Moash and finds that he isn’t a fully bad guy and has to figure out how to let go of that hatred that he has toward this man, much like Katara in the episode of atla where she goes to kill the man who killed her mother. -Everything about the class system themes is so interesting. I’m wondering if Brandon can see this and what he will do about it if so. -I was glad you guys talked about Zuko, I was getting real worried when you’d been talking about redemption arcs for like ten minutes and he hadn’t been mentioned once 😂 Great episode! Honestly the thought that this was coming Saturday sustained me through the this week.....
Thanks for an excellent and thoughtful discussion. Really appreciate Shannon's insights and comments. Didn't think I could stand 2 hours of Moash discussion, but you guys made it very interesting.
I think the reason Sanderson feels comfortable going this direction is because he has Venli, who is also hates the people in charge for killing her friends and deceiving her and wants to build something better. So we still have both sides of the issue. Also, the human side hasn't given up on reforms. Jasnah stopped slavery and duels to the death and has overall improved a lot of laws without all the blood and chaos of a revolution, partly because of Kaladin's influence (that scene in oathbringer where they argue about morality and that scene in row where he leans on her authority to get things done). idk but to me it feels like there's still a lot of nuance on the subject outside of moash
Kaladin should not ever be okay with moash after he killed teft in front of him. Even if there is redemption he and kaladin shouldn't ever be happy seeing him.
@Anne Day I will be very interested to see how Brandon writes Moash's redemption if that's the direction the character goes. Unforgiveable and unforgettable are not mutually exclusive, but they rarely exist simultaneously because humanity's natural reaction to being wronged is fight or flight, not extend forgiveness to the evildoer. True forgiveness is a way of living, not just a singular action that you make and move on, especially with actions as heinous as murder. I'm very curious to see Brandon's take on this as the series progresses.
@@winter117a I'm personally drawn towards an addict in active addiction. Is what moash did worse than dalinar burning a city? Probably not, objectively. So can moash have a moral beginning? Maybe? Maybe I've been listening to dalinar's third ideal too much though. To be a journey there must be a beginning.
@@simpsonman956 scarred and through deep compartmentalizing and rationalizing, yeah. It wouldn't shock me all that much if, should Moash have a redemption that ends with him being around Kaladin, Kaladin starts referring to Vyre and Moash as two entirely different beings, just like Adolin blames the Thrill for Evi's death. _If_ Kaladin is ever forced to work together with Moash its either gonna be one hell of a painful and long process, or Moash will be trying to get across how sorry he is while Kal just goes "that wasn't you, shut up about it before I change my mind and shardspear the fuck out of you"
I think a bit problem I have with Moash is that there is a lack of accountability. He gives his emotions, and by proxy his ability to be held accountable for his actions, to Odium and uses this as a blanket to justify himself. For me, however much worse Dalinar’s actions are, once he remembered them he did not shy away from it and wanted to be held to account
Agreed, also does everyone forget that dalinar had a literal unmade basically forcing him into a dissasociative state for the majority of the violence?
@@danielbroome5690 I kinda like it that hardly anyone talks about that. Lets be honest, if we found out that someone committed horrible crimes in real life because an actual mind controlling and emotion bending entity spent the better part of four decades eroding their mind, I think we'd _all_ be pretty happy to lay the blame for all that person's done on said evil entity... But Dalinar _specifically_ asks for us not to think of it that way. Yeah, there is little to no chance he'd have done 99% of what he did in his life without the Thrill, but he _doesn't want_ this to excuse his mistakes. Every Alethi during that time was also under the Thrill (probably none as strongly as Dalinar since Odium wanted him in particular, true, but they all still were), and yet his violence was so much more extreme than theirs. I don't think it's particularly healthy for Dalinar to say everything he did was his fault, there is definitely a good amount of it he _should_ be blaming on the Thrill, but it'd be really hard for him to go down that path without excusing himself of accountability.
Moash is striking up but he's also striking down considering he doesn't care who gets hurt to get him to his goals. Same as in the expanse when the oppressed belt spins off terror groups. They might be justifiably mad at the inner worlds but they are 100% ok justifying civilian murders just to spite them. You lose your righteous oppressed anger privileges when you start allowing or helping kill other oppressed people or just people related to the people in power.
I gotta say, it's nice to hear someone say it's okay to not be able to get over Dalinar's past. My friends often say, oh well Dalinar claimed responsibility for his actions so he's all good... but like he admitted that it was him (not Odium or the Thrill) that delighted in the slaughter of thousands of people, burnt a city and it's inhabitants to the ground, and (literally) destroyed his marriage. I'm sorry but, saying 'Whoops, my bad' isn't just gonna magically un-ruin all those peoples live's. Glad to hear I'm not crazy. Edit 1: oh 21:38 Ian said it better than I could've Edit 2: Having listened a little further to what Matt/Shannon said... I suppose I can see Dalinar as being mostly redeemed... but I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive his past. All that said... I don't know why Dalinar's actions are a hurdle I cannot overcome, but I've always been Shallan's side, even throughout the revelation of her parent's (and spren's) murder(s). Like, they both ultimately couldn't deal with their actions, forgot what they had done, and shaped who they came to be with the remembrance of those acts... I dunno. Maybe it's because she didn't wan't to do what she did? Anyone else feel this way? Am I just a Shallan apologist?
Yeah, I personally think Dalinar's story worked for me but I think it is TOTALLY reasonable if anyone just can't get over the horrible things he did. They were horrendous for sure. So no complaints from me on that; it's a totally reasonable position to have though the story worked for me. -Eric
There's a difference in someone improving themself, whether that person is redeemed (or even redeemable), and whether that person deserves forgiveness. I would say he has changed, is attempting to redeem himself, but is not necessarily worthy of forgiveness yet.
Shallan was a child when she kills her mother in self-defense, and after that her father becomes an abuser of her and her siblings. I can defend each one of her actions easily.
@@17thShard Just want to say, I know there were jokes/concerns about 'hot takes' and this being a controversial episode, but it was really wonderful. Thanks to you and the crew for all the work y'all do in putting out such great content.
The one thing Moash did see was Elokhar swearing that first ideal. So he sees none of the redemption leading up to that, and sees him joining the Knights Radiant. This man who in his eyes was evil, is now joining up with that organization and they don't even care about what he did. That would also make it very easy to paint radiants in that light of they accepted Elokhar they're all like that.
Except that he knows Kaladin. And that plotting to kill the king stripped Kaladin of his powers. Powers that Kaladin had used to protect Moash and all of Bridge 4. Don't forget that the Rashone affair happened a good 7+ years ago. A 20-17 year old Elokhar made a mistake.
@@crazyscotsman9327 I'd be surprised if moash connected what he did with kaladin losing his powers given he didn't see the details there. And even with the time gap elhokar still killed his grandparents and that's not a minor thing.
I came into this episode thinking, "I completely hate Moash, I don't really want to listen to this episode, but hell I will maybe listen to like 5 mins and then skip"... But I am 1hr 30 mins in and WOW. This was such an eye opener. Shannon, Matt, Alyx and all of you really gave me a LOT to think about and thanks for pointing out the parallels between Moash, Dalinar and Adolin. I think I can take these lessons and apply it to my daily life, and try to better understand my own biases. Thank you guys! This episode was worth every second of my time.
Jasnah is a very clear supporter of the idea that the Alethy system is flawed and she has been very actively changing it so I don’t think we can argue that Moash is the only one who is acting against it.
@@cold12u What are you talking about? Dalinar literally put Kaladin in charge of his personal guard and let him speak, give advice during important Court meetings. He gave a slave who he knew for less then a month the ability to speak on policy and gave him more power then any Dark Eyes ever had in his army, in any army. If they had more time Kaladin probably would have been the first of many dark eyes who became leaders and broke down the barriers. It's just the literal end of the world right now and they have other things to deal with.
It's worth pointing out that Dalinar was in basically a dissasociative state due to the unmade thrill manipulating his emotions and "rioting" them whereas Moash simply removes his pain and uses it as an excuse for calculated violence. It can be argued that dalinar was not in control of himself in a very legal sense. This is what Odium says to him and it is true in a way, true he had to accept his guilt but that was in a very Greek mythology way like Hercules killing his family when driven mad by Hera and then needing to redeem his honor by doing the 10 tasks. I think those 2 stories are extremely similar. Hercules did nothing wrong because of his altered state of mind, but by Greek and in our case HONOR's standard for oaths he was guilty as the body who did it and must redeem himself
One thing I haven't seen discussed in the comments or in this episode which I find relevant in the "Redeemable" conversation between Moash and Dalinar is the fact that Dalinar is a freaking Bondsmith!! Not just a Radiant, but the Stormfather himself bonded with Dalinar! Readers therefore are able to redeem him, while not necessarily excusing him for his actions. It's easy for us to think "ok, this guy may have done terrible things in his past, but he's clearly the good guy if this child of Honor bonded with him instead of anyone else". I don't think we know the history of other Bondsmiths in Roshar well enough, but were there ever any "evil" Bondsmiths? I doubt it...
(Long theory essay incoming…) We have seen many characters choose the right path, so it would be nice to see the opposite. I think Kaladin and Moash are just two sides of the same coin like Dalinar and Taravangian. They started out the same but took different paths. Even Kaladin said that he sees himself in Moash. Moash is like a mirror to Kaladin but he made the wrong decision. He has the hatered for those who wronged him and also a lot of guilt. But he chose not to live with that guilt. Life before death. We see that Kaladin tries hard to continue even if he is not well. He can’t let go of his guilt for a long time but chooses to live with it because he decided to try one last time and he has to protect others so he can’t just give up. But Moash can not live with his feelings and he believes Odium’s lie that he doesn’t have a choice so he gives himself up to him completely. Essentially dying as Moash and starting a new life with a new name. Moash can’t live with the pain and thinks there are only two ways. Either die or give up the pain and live for some greater being because the miserable life of little people is just not worth it. He even says to Kaladin that there are only two paths and he has to not exist or give up the pain to stop hurting. He seems to care about Kal or at least respect him and he really wants to end his suffering. Maybe he wants to repay him for the things he did for him and wants to make things easier for Kal in his own way. Because Kaladin is the only person who matters for him. Kaladin found purpose in protecting others because he cares about them. This caused a lot of pain for him but he continues the journey anyway. But Moash only cares about himself. He doesn’t let anyone close to himself because of the fear of pain. He severs his ties so he doesn’t have to care and can do whatever he wants to. Only one bond remains. Kaladin. He is the only one who matters because he is like Moash and has to make the same decision. Moash might care about Kaladin and wants to really “help” him and end his sufferin but it’s not the main reason he pushes him to decide. He needs to be right. He needs confirmation that he made the right decision. And if Kaladin who always knows what’s right agrees than he did not make a mistake. Than it’s right to follow vegeance. Than it’s alright to be a monster. Because there is no way he can live with his guilt and emotions. Nobody can. Except Kaladin. So Kal has to fail and admit that it’s impossible and with that justify Moash’s decision. But instead Kaladin let go. And I think this is the biggest difference between them. Moash is unable to let go. It was hard for Kal too but he slowly did it one step at a time. So I can imagine a fight of ideals between the two where Kaladin shows Moash that there is a way to let go of the pain and heal. And Moash exepts that he made a big mistake and essentially became what he wanted to destroy. (He is the same for little Gavinor what Elhokar was for him.) But he thinks he doesn’t deserve to be saved and can’t let go of the guilt. Kaladin would except that he has to let him take his decision and respect it. And because Moash is a dark mirror to Kaladin he makes the opposite decision and jumps. Maybe he does something good before like steps up against Odium but ultimately dies in the end. It would be a heartbreaking moment for us and Kaladin but it would be a great character moment for Moash. He exepts his faliours but he is not absolved from his mistakes. I would like that ending for him but if not I’m down to see some adult Gavinor and Moash interactions later on. It would hit hard.
So, after all this, here is how I think this will go down A) I love the "tries to be a hero, and die, but Kaliden saves him"arc B) in the back half we catch back up to him, and after much introspection, is ready to redeem himself finally. He accepts his pain and guilt, and while not working in the system, starts doing good things with his righteous anger. B.5)He becomes a dust bringer, kills some bigoted light eyes who can't accept dark eyes are becoming equals now, and Moash is a hero for it( maybe in dust bringer book even????) C) he becomes a foil for Gavinore, where Gavinore can't accept that Moash is becoming a good person, and spends more time than is healthy trying to kill Moash C.5) fandom argues over Gavinore stuff because half the fandom still wants Gavinore to kill Moash for everything he did in the first half D)???????? E) they learn to tolerate each other long enough to get the happy ending of book 10
Intent matters in the cosmere. Comparing Dalinar and Moash on actions alone or by redemption arcs without intent is incomplete. Also, I’m pretty sure the thrill was Odium’s, right? I mean, Odium was manipulating Dalinar for years. Dalinar’s redemption is him taking accountability. Moash cannot have a redemption without him taking accountability and changing his intent behind actions.
16:00 Didn't Dalinar ask to be forgiveness? That's different than asking to be free of guilt. Moash feels bad for what he did, but doesn't want to hurt. He wants both things: what he wants and to be free of consequences. That is what Odium used to keep him in his place
I didn't come to the Stormlight Archive until after Oathbringer had come out, and I saw the "F*** Moash" memes before starting the series. And I thought it originated from the assassination attempt on Elkohar in WoR, when he is willing to kill Kaladin to finish the assassination. Then I read Oathbringer and I felt the meme that much stronger...
One thing I find interesting in relation to Moash and redemption is his blindness at the end of RoW. To me this feels like setting him up to have to spend a lot of time reflecting internally on his pain and guilt, the trauma that brought him to where he is and what he has done. He no longer has the outlet of violence to distract himself with as he isn't trained to fight blind, he won't be useful to Odium and could be cast out, left again with no place to go and no support system to help him through. I think that would be a good place for a spren to come in, an ashspren would suit if he was working on refining his power while trying to train to be able to fight in his new situation, but there are many ways he could go from there. I think his eventual healing, if it would happen, would symbolise him ready to see the world again with new perspective, all of the pain he has both endured and inflicted, ready to truly face it rather than shying away or shoving it onto someone else.
With regard to Moash and what his blindness represents, one clear comparison is Saul from the Bible, who persecuted the Christians and was stricken blind. He became Paul the Saint...so I think a redemption arc is likely (especially considering Brandon’s beliefs). Also, Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher to ask to forget, but what he actually asked for was forgiveness - which is an important distinction. If he hadn’t asked for that the Nightwatcher would have been able to grant his wish, but she wasn’t even capable of comprehending what he wanted.
Moash will be by far on of my favorite antiheroes in by the time all ten books are written. Everyone will see he will either get a redemption arch or does something heroic in the end.
Also, the other thing we are not saying here is that the character dying after being redeemed is easier FOR US. I would argue that Vader dying is a cop out. The whole trope is a cop out, but is more palatable to mass audiences (particularly children). I expect more from Brandon.
In the end I think that Moash finds that Kaladin not only had the potential to be what Moash was at that very moment but also shows which path Moash could have gone on if not for his beliefs of vengeance and warped justice
I didn't know that there was so much hesitancy over whether Dalinar deserves a good ending or whatever. I love Dalinar because he is already doing good things, maybe he won't get rid of the "red in his ledger" but at the moment he's doing good things (almost exclusively good things) and Moash isn't, he's running away, true in the same way Dalinar is but I'm not gonna like someone until they are on that road. Moash COULD be redeemed but I'm never gonna want it UNTIL he starts to walk that path. Like Theon, did I want a redemption? Not until he STARTED redeeming himself
I hate Moash and the choices he's making and love to hate him as a person. That being said, I love watching characters suffer and seeing how that shapes them and I'm REALLY curious to see what Moash does. I want Brandon to take him on a rollercoaster of pain and trauma and see how he does.
I personally have a strong sympathy towards moash. Half of words is Kaladin struggling with killing Elhokar despite being much less personally involved than moash. Kal came to the honorable position at the end, but Moash could still see why he needs to deal with his issues. I'm morally basing this on the idea of christian forgiveness and that the book is ultimately about overcoming your own mental struggles. I think finding some actual personal inner peace or at least mental atonement is necessary. I keep coming back to the idea of addiction. Moash choosing deadness reminds me of addicts in their height. They know it's fucked up but they can't accept it, where they are then. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve peace
Which makes it all the more fucked up that Moash kills Teft. For all his "I'm Kaladin"' bluster, Teft was the Bridge Four member who most likely could see and understand him
A thought occurred to me at the mention of Vyre's blindness: Correct me if I'm wrong - and forgive my paraphrasing of the quote - but I believe there is a WoB where Brandon explains the stormlight healing works by matching your physical body to your idealized version of yourself (hence why Kaladin's scars didn't heal at first). Vyre going blind after colliding with the wall suggests that he gave himself brain damage with that impact, but we know that stormlight can heal brain damage (see shallow taking a crossbow bolt to the skull in Oathbringer). SO, since Vyre' stormlight DIDN'T heal his blindness, that implies that he thinks his ideal self is someone who doesn't have to see what's in front of him (or perhaps, doesn't have to face what he's done?) Let that sink in. In short, if he is due for a redemption arc. I don't think it will be in the near future.
Here's a thought, what if Odium is desperate to prevent Moash from becoming someone in particular. He used Moash and the vision to try and prevent Kaladin from becoming a greater threat. What if Moash unguided by Odium poses a greater threat. Further if Moash is permanently blind Odium might just discard him and stop giving him no emotion drugs
Not that I necessary like the idea of Kaladin dying (what a tragedy that would be) but if that were to happen, I really hope that Moash survives and kind of continues Kal's legacy of helping those in need while improving himself into a man that was worthy of standing beside Kal (like in the vision/impression Renarin shows him). I feel that seeing someone as guilt ridden and damaged as Moash try to live up to the kind of ideals that Kal achieved (even though I don't know that moash would necessarily be a windrunner) would be really interesting. The idea of him having a confeontation/heart to heart with Gavinor would be a really neat interaction out of it too, since we could be faced with a situation where Moash still doesn't like/particularly respect lighteye nobility (but has changed from his more stabby ways to a reformist/maybe has made his own freedom fighter band a la bridge 4/maybe with singers) but feels guilty for killing the guys dad, and a Gavinor that hates that moash killed his dad, but has to grapple with the fact that he's a man who has changed for the better, and it's not fair to forgive his father figure Dalinar and not Moash. Idk, I just think it would be neat
I'd say the point where the Moash - Dalinar parallel breaks down is how each of them reacted once their pain came back. Both of them were weak enough to flee from their feelings of guilt and horror at their actions. But when Dalinar received his back, he decided to swallow it, accept it and move on with this new weight. Moash ran as fast as he could back to Odium to get his numbness back. If we were really on parallel lines here, after Navani started singing the anti-Odium tone, Moash would have stuck around Urithiru to help protect people from the final Fused attack and would have sought out Kaladin to try to make amends. The key difference between them seems to be that they both did horrible things, were small enough to not be able to face themselves... But Dalinar, as he says in Oathbringer, is willing to take the next step. Moash, so far, is not.
This may be my favorite post-RoW shardcast! I wasn't expecting that because honestly, I feel a bit apathetic about Moash's character. Before watching this I think my answer would have been that I didn't want him to have a redemption arc because I don't want pages wasted on him that could be spent on other characters and plots I care more about. This deep-dive helped me understand why I feel the way I do about him though. Thanks for this discussion y'all!
I think what makes a lot of sense based on the way Brandon has treated Moash is that while he may not get a 'redemption arc' a la Zuko, there will be something about his final confrontation with Kaladin (who is travelling with Szeth, someone who on paper and body count, is truly a monster despite the fact we're choosing collectively based on the writing to cut him more slack for this and get those juicy book5 flashbacks -- another interesting foil) that will have a redemptive element, or more of an 'aha' Plato in the cave moment. Would be cool to see Moash not be redeemed in this book per se, but saved so that he can ATONE in someway (similar vibes for how Ironeyes has evolved as a character/plot device in the Mistborn trilogy).
I think one can pick up on Dalinar actively trying to improve and distance himself from the praise of people like Sadeas; obviously we didn't know how bad he was but there's something there
Fundamentally disagree with gray on people deserving redemption/forgiveness. Yes to be forgiven requires you to have done something wrong. But everyone deserves to be forgiven if they try and make good. As Brandon had told us it's about the journey not the destination
A lot of people want to weigh sins when discussing Moash, with the usual example being Dalinar burning a city vs Moash attempting (and eventually succeeding) in assassinating Elhokar. What isn't discussed as often is that different sins or "evil" deeds are weighed differently in people's minds. Often, betrayal is considered worse than than murder, so it isn't the assassination that causes him to seem evil, but the betrayal of Kaladin and Bridge Four. This is shown in literature and philosophy over the centuries, with the most famous example being Dante's Inferno, where the ninth circle of hell being for traitors and betrayers, while violence is only the seventh circle. Matt mentions this, but it doesn't really get picked up or expanded in the discussion.
But Elhokar's murder isn't a betrayal, though. A betrayal supposes that trust has been broken. Kaladin didn't trust that Moash won't kill Elhokar. He knew that that is Moash's goal and there has never been any doubt about that.
@@geosustento8894 it was a betrayal of their friendship. They both knew how the other felt, but Moash acted in a way that was manipulative and abusive to try and get him over to his side.
@@wraith.ferron Moash did what he thought was the right thing to do. He didn't kill Elhokar to play with Kaladin's feelings. If you meant the salute he did after doing the deed, I don't see him doing it in any way to mock Kaladin. For me, it appears more like him doing what he knows Kaladin can't do but what he feels to be something that needs to be done. He wouldn't have killed Elhokar if what he wanted was to get Kaladin on his side because he knows full well from their conversation and confrontation in WoR that it will just alienate him further. If you meant him killing Teft, it's useful to note that he's no longer the same person. He's no more than a puppet of Odium at that point and only does what Odium wants him to do as evident by how horrified he was when his link to Odium broke for a moment and the guilt creeped in. So, holding that deed against Moash is a bit more nuanced that most people think.
@@wraith.ferron so... how is that a betrayal if he's being perfectly honest? Again, a betrayal necessitates a breaking of trust. If he said he won't hurt Elhokar, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case. In fact, if anything, it's Kaladin who betrayed Moash since he's the one who said he will not interfere in what Moash is trying to do.
Grey morality just means you can sympathize with the villains. Moash is a grey villain in words of radiance where clearly Sanderson wants you to see what he’s doing as wrong but you aren’t invested enough to dislike what he’s doing or you like the bad guy enough to actively cheer for the villain. Everyone being bad is just easier to pull off because you have to like someone or you won’t read it.
Too many comments on this point to reply to, so I thought I'd just start new - just wanted to say I'm really enjoying the discussions around the nuances and distinctions between Dalinar and Moash. I think, for me at least, in the episode I took it for granted that 'Dalinar is the good guy / Moash-Vyre is the bad guy' was implicit in how the books are set up, so the counter perspective required more analysis and discussion. While I find the comparison really compelling - the contrasts are also very fun to dig into.
Adolin kind of holds Dalinar accountable in Rhythm of War when he says to Shalon that he might eventually be able to forgive him for killing his mother.
Me: Wow this was a really deep conversation about redemption and forgiveness, a ton of interesting points made, especially on the class stuff and comparing what Moash has done to people like Adolin and Dalinar. Also me: FMoash For real though I thought this episode was really good. If there was one point I think you guys maybe missed/didn't hit hard enough, it would be the difference between killing Sadeas or Elhokar, and then the book 4 stuff where moash is trying to get his best friend to kill himself, and kills another good friend. The difference between doing bad stuff to people who have done bad stuff to you, vs people who have done nothing to you, vs people who have been there for you and helped you, is astronomically worse and harder to forgive/be redeemed for. I honestly thought the fandom was WAYYYYY too hard on Moash after Oathbringer, but now after Rythm of War I honestly don't have any interest in Moash getting redeemed or honestly reading about the character any more. I honestly think Brandon took it too far for a lot of readers to be on board for the eventual redemption arc
My thoughts is that Moash *not* getting a redemption arc will elaborate on the Journey Before Destination theme just as well, if not better, and if he does get a redemption arc. The theme isn't only just that the journey is more important than the destination, but also that you're journey SHAPES you - So because Moash's journey is an immortal one, he is making himself into an immoral person more than someone who will be redeemed in the end. That is not to say that his goal/desired destination is also bad.
I imagine two possibilities with how Moash will go and I would say they both end in death. The first possible is essentially the same as Killmonger from the end of the Marvel Black Panther. Being offered redemption after a Kaladin confrontation yet holding to his beliefs about the Alethi injustice and choosing death instead. The second is a little more obscure. Ray Liotta plays a survivor of the attack on the Alamo in Texas rising which results in a psychotic break as he comes to in the burning rubble surrounded by his fallen comrades and family. He then goes on a killing spree sort of like Rambo except it is against all Mexicans both civilian and military. At one point he kills an entire group traveling and kills everyone but misses a young boy. Fast forward to the end when Santa Anna is defeated we see a cool redemption arc where he regains his humanity and starts to fall in love. He goes to a community/church pick-nick and the boy that survived his attack earlier on recognizes him despite having shaved, not being covered in blood and dirt, and bent on death. The boy finds a pistol and shoots him, and before he dies he essentially says it's okay I basically deserved that. I think the first is far more likely but the second would be really cool to see that come full circle with Gavinor if Brandon decided he wanted to take that long with Moash.
Per Aristotle- Anger, like every other part of life is best expressed in the right way, at the right time, for the right reasons, to the right degree... Just venting is destructive and causes one to often become worse than he whom one vents anger upon.
In terms of the discussion about dark eyes falling in line being considered “good”, I do think that Lirin should be considered. I feel like Lirin is what Sanderson uses as an example of a dark eye not getting angry and just falling into line. I would say that Rhythm of War goes to great lengths to show that not getting angry and just accepting getting oppressed is not always the right choice. Kaladin does fall in line compared to Moash, but he is extremely rebellious compared to Lirin. I don’t necessarily disagree with your guys’ point, but I thought it was an interesting counter point.
This was one of the best Shardcasts I've seen. Great discussion about such a controversial character. IMO any character could be redeemed ... but I'm not sure if Moash should. I don't think it would fit the narrative. I heartly agree with Shannon and Matt's opinions. I would love to see in future books a dark-eyed POV addressing deficiencies in the justice system. Good people but not aligning themselves with the Kholins. Perhaps showing Jasnah and the ruling class the hypocrisy of eliminating slavery but keep considering a part of the population second-class citizens.
Also, Love Ian's reference to Van Gogh's episode in DW. "Every life is a pile of good things and bad things... The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa, the bad things don’t necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant. "
Wrong on one point, Dalinar asked if he could be forgiven not to have his pain taken away. Cultivation took his pain temporarily to help grow, but ultimately he had to face it in order to achieve his goal of being forgiven. He did originally intend to ask for the pain to go away but when he actually met the nightwatcher he asked for forgiveness. What he asked for is not what Moash asked for. Odium offered to take away his pain, Dalinar refused because he wanted forgiveness not numbness. Very different request that want Moash has pursued so far. I don't agree at all that the only thing that was different between Moash and Dalinar was which god they went to. The point of the similarity is to show that getting rid of the pain doesn't heal you it makes you worse. You could argue Dalinar was worse than Moash, I would agree, but the thing he asked for is not the same thing Moash has asked for thus far.
i don’t like moash for what he did to kaladin, but i don’t really care that he killed elhokar because jasnah becoming ruler is a net benefit for roshar
I agree with a lot of the nuance in here. I still don't like him, more or less solely because of his character traits (I can't stand it when people don't own up to their stupid choices and mistakes and shift the blame to others). oof to his hypocrisy. On top of that, we have him torture Kaladin both directly and indirectly. No matter the reason for his actions, torture isn't ever ok IMO. Kal let go of most of the Roshone anger because he realized there was better stuff with his time, not because Roshone was forgiven. Roshone was just totally pitiable. That man was a sad husk. lol I'm curious to see how Szeth is going to develop. We were promised friction between Kal and Szeth, and I want my friction and see how their dynamics change. That would be so interesting to see happen... As a side note: how do we know anyone being the leader of the Knights Radiant is a good thing? It's not as if that organization hasn't messed up big time in the past. Stormlight is just becoming more and more of a moral/philosophical dilemma. I really liked the convo at the end of Oathbringer where Kaladin and Syl are talking about the previous downfall of the Knights Radiant. Falling down step by step (or sliding of off a cliff) into bad choices is something that came up about Moash in this episode a lot. This could be another foil-type situation. The Radiants are mainly supposed to represent Honor and Moash would the Odium's rep here. Honor went crazy and took the Radiants with him. It seems like Odium is taking his followers with him as well. It's just that the Intents they stand for are more or less opposites so the effects are different. I wouldn't call it darkness per see. Just madness, possibly. On the topic of Odium, I don't like the whole apologetic aspect that the Intent of the Shard introduces. Yes, people are still responsible for their own actions, but as soon as you say they did it under Odium's influence, their whole motivation or the reasons why they act that way just don't really matter anymore. This way you can say: ah, well. This abuser was under Odium's influence and thus acted like an a-hole. They did what they did, but they aren't the reason for their behavior. I once heard someone say Shallan's father was under Odium's influence and that was why he acted in such an abusive manner. That really hit me in the wrong way. As someone who's gone through similar hardships, I don't like the reasons for people behaving that way being negated by basically making the person being 'possessed by the devil. There can be legitimate reasons, mental health or psychiatric, for people's behavior. It felt like a total invalidation even if Brandon has never confirmed this to be true. The idea alone is something I don't like.
People talk about redemption in strange ways. They talk about Darth Vader in RotJ like he redeemed himself, but the guy still murdered children and played a part in the destruction of an entire planet. But then he threw the emperor into a pit to stop him from torturing his son. Ok, all is forgiven. Vader and Dalinar have both done things worse than Moash, but people say that their redemptions are ok, but F*** Moash! I hate him. I don't really want him to be redeemed. I think the only way it can be somewhat satisfying is if his redemption occurs by betraying Odium at just the right moment to make sure the good guys win, then dying. That in and of itself is kind of a common trope, see Vader example above, but I could see that kind of thing in Moash's future.
This all comes down to retributive versus restorative justice. The former validates your anger and comforts you temporarily, but in the long run, it kinda blows, because it doesn't really fix anything. For example, a lot of minor criminals turn into recidivists after being in jail. Sure the victim might be happy that the guy who did them wrong is probably getting raped somewhere out there, but on a larger scale, "eye for an eye" is pure bullshit. Moash gained retribution by killing Elhokar - look what it did to him and everyone around him. Singers want revenge and the flip side of that desire is that they're mostly insane and the ones who aren't are just tired and regretful. On the other hand, restorative justice that takes aim at rehabilitating people and fixing systemic issues that brought them to do bad things in the first place might not give you the fuzzies of watching your enemies scream in pain, but society as a whole gains another productive member and actual problems get addressed. I think Dalinar actually did a good job of it. Where's imagine if Mink just stabbed his ass on arrival due to misguided (although justifiable) spite. Humanity on Roshar would probably be screwed at that point. If not - it would at least be way worse off. All because of some ONE guy's feelings. I'm gonna go meta now and suggest that the fact that most people at least approve of Dalinar and hate Moash with a passion underlines logical inconsistencies that lead to the fact, that we as a species are still at large ruled by emotions. And what's more alarming is that this trend isn't only applicable in a microcosm of a fictional reality - it happens irl all the time. We're all Odiums puppets, people. Wake up.
@Anne Day the lack of nuance is deliberate. I wasn't exactly planning to write an essay - just an off the cuff jokey sort of ramble on the subject. As for your point, I've spent lots of time watching court video logs and other media centered around criminal justice (not with particular purpose - just from morbid curiosity) and from my observations people who identified with the victim were a lot more prone to exhibit bloodlust than any sort of a wish for isolation of the perpetrator such as the one you describe. Admittedly, I haven't seen everything and I haven't been on the victim side myself thankfully. Who knows, my rationalizations of today might go out the window the moment I myself get slighted in some sufficiently gruesome way. On isolation, I don't have a problem with it per se, although it can be a bit of a slippery term. First off it doesn't necessarily have much of an overlap with retribution. Secondly it's very broad, since through sufficiently obsequious mental gymnastics even death penalty can sort of be called isolation - you can no longer come in contact with someone who's dead, after all. And I do have problems with that (but to be fair mostly on logical grounds since emotionally I sometimes want to kill just about anyone I interact with, who's giving me trouble, and so do, I believe, everyone else). Anyway, isolation in and of itself isn't the problem - it's how exactly it's carried out. Let me give you an example from the fringes where the crime doesn't exactly warrants measures as drastic as deleting someone outright. I don't know about USA but in my country all penitentiaries today have abhorrent recidivism level. That's because the act of isolation is not treated as an attempt to mend - but as an attempt to punish (in context of practice of incarceration that is the difference between it being retributive as opposed to restorative). People who made at times very understandable missteps (especially if you take into consideration the socioeconomic circumstances of their existence) get marginalized there, they get treated like shit, and once they come out this treatment sometimes only intensifies. They effectively can no longer be productive on to themselves or useful to society. And by gaining retribution through making them suffer people essentially make the problem worse. A lot of the times due to that sort of treatment, upon release the chances of them hurting someone only increase. In fact exponentially so with each consecutive incarceration. But I digress. I was going to write some more on accountability but it grew way out of proportion and this comment as it is took wait too much out of me already :D
After listening to this, I really want someone to spike Moash with gold Allomancy, just because I really want to know how he would react to burning gold and seeing who he COULD have been.
A Moash redemption arc wouldn't only be amazing, but it kind of feels like the direction he is going already. He's blind now, how can he continue to be a warrior for Odium? Now, I would totally be on board with Moash getting spiked and becoming an Allomancer/Surgebinder super villain, but idk if that's gonna happen.
you talk about the anger of the oppressed in regards to Moash, and what is Kelsiers anger, if it's not the anger of the oppressed. With kelsier Is it justified rage? Where as kelsier wants change, Moash wants to destroy.
This was just making me think of Tealc in Stargate. It's usually in the background but occasionally brought to the forefront, like in one episode (I don't really remember specifics) he willingly goes on trial for his actions and the rest of the team don't want him to. Also Moash on a dustbringer arc would be cool
I'm intrigued by Shannon's argument that someone should be mad about the mistreatment of darkeyes/non-alethi - especially when as with real-world racism, we know it was purely based on shitty societal structures. I think the radiants do have a responsibility toward equality in the aftermath of Stormlight and that many of the worst (Sadeas, Amaram) have already had their just desserts, but yeah something to keep an eye on
I think Moash absolutely CAN be redeemed. An easy way to tell with 90% certainty will be if there is a POV for him in Stormlight 5. Its the Jaimie Lannister effect. You get into the bad guys POV and all of a sudden they are sympathetic. Any decent author can pull that off and I think Brandon would be the kinda guy to flex his writerly muscles to say "remember that dude you´ve HATED for 2 books? now I´ll make you love him" SHOULD he be redeemed tho? I don´t thik so. He is the representation of Kaladin´s 4th Ideal. He is THE person Kaladin can´t help as a therapist. So unless Moash´s story separetes completely from Kaladin and he goes on a soul searching journey and he manages to save himself. There is no redemption I think
Im now officially in the "Moash tries to end it all in desperation and Kaladin denies him that chance and drags him through recovery, atonement, and redemption" camp. The moment this came up I was sold. Kaladin''s lesson in forgiveness for himself tying in with his persistent desire to save his companions could come to a head with him saving Moash, the one he refuses to give up on. A scene this epic could easily be 5th oath worthy.
Great episode guys!
@Anne Day or like i will forgive my enemies
@Anne Day Holy shit that would be insane. Only question is if that would come up in book 5 or if it would need to wait until the second half of Stormlight.
I will protect those who do not wish it?
I think Zuko from ATLA is the best redemption arc of all time. Monstrous through volume 1 and 2 sees the effects of his nations brutality in 3, and spends the rest trying to redeem himself
I wouldn't say he was monstrous in season 2 by any means. He was already set down the path of bettering himself pretty early into the season.
The episode 'Zuko Alone' has Zuko come face to face with how his family's atrocities have truly affected civilians in the Earth Kingdom and realizing that simply trying to be their friend cannot make up for the pain he has directly caused them.
From the point forward, he seeks out Iroh and spends most of the rest of the season trying to follow his advice.
Zuko spends almost the entirety of his time in Ba Sing Se simply laying low and running the tea shop with Iroh, having genuinely given up his life as the crown-prince.
His fall back to the Fire Nation at the end of season 2 is so heartbreaking because he spent so much of that season genuinely improving himself.
I would argue that season 3 is less about Zuko realizing the horrible person he used to be because he had already realized that in season 2. It was more him realizing that the life he was trying to win back - the reason he committed those horrible acts in the first place - wasn't even a life he wanted to live anymore.
Zuko's arc is fascinating because the narrarive took his power away for him to teach him his lesson about where he draws his power from.
Comatose: "Do you know who that reminded me of, who's actually a good example of hangin' around with the good guys?"
Me: "... Szeth!"
Comatose: "Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer."
Me: "Oh, ok..."
Comatose: "... but also, that's kind of, like, Szeth."
Me: "KNEW IT!!"
When Eric was talking about how Dalinar hasn’t been held accountable but he holds himself accountable, it reminds me of Wayne. He doesn’t forgive himself for what he did, but Wax forgives him and the people around him forgive him, but in the eyes of the man’s daughter, he can never be forgiven or redeemed, so he sees himself in that way.
Shocked it took an hour into it for someone to bring up Zuko haha
Oh no Teft was Iroh :(
@@Kabissz Iroh is who teft would want to be. Just a guy at peace trying to get laid with the young tea server.
The fact that Moash is blinded at the end of RoW makes me think of an ancient trope: blindness allows for insight. So I wonder if we're gonna get a lot of Vyre introspection in book 5, leading to maybe a redemption arc
I actually would love to see a moash redemption arc
That would be cool because he wasn't always so hateable.
The bit about perception of evil is really good. Raboniel was a great character and all, if you conveniently forget that she wiped out 1/10th of a planet's population and would do it again in a heartbeat if it could further her goals...
I was kinda dreading 2 hours of Moash, but the Cosmere Class Analysis was extremely interesting. I rewound that section several times, fantastic stuff.
This might have been one of your best episodes yet as far as critical reading goes - digging into the nitty gritty of the tropes, different outcomes, and how different nuances in how the stories are told impacts the message the author sends to the readers, or how the readers interpret the story (as opposed to just nerding out about the Cosmere lore). Really enjoyed it. Shannon in particular made some really thought provoking points for me.
Really good episode. This has made me thoroughly reassess my previous position on Moash. I was very much in the F Moash camp but on reflection he has been the victim of abuse and systemic oppression for his whole life, and the fact he refused to become the ‘good dark eyes’ and step in line is understandable. Even in RoW arguably he’s still ultimately trying to save Kaladin in his own twisted way - either Kaladin will give his pain over to Odium like Moash did and be free of it, or he’ll free himself through his death. Whether we believe either of those outcomes are desirable, he’s kind of not wrong; Kaladin would be free from his pain in either circumstance.
I entered this episode with fear and trembling, but it was really good. I was sitting there waiting for someone to mention Zuko... 😂
Alix is wrong at 16:00 - Dalinar asked Cultivation to be forgiven. And she says she can't do that. So she gives the next best thing, which is to take is memories.
This is correct, but that was a decision that Dalinar seemed to make in the moment that he was there (and it seemed to surprise him as well!) When I was bringing up the reasons he went, I was more thinking about the motivations that led him to make the journey out there, and the things he had originally intended to ask! Which, are pretty similar to Moash's desires to have his pain taken away and the guilt removed! But yeah, you're right, I could have been clearer about that.
@@FeatherWriters I completely understand your thinking, but disagrees with it. Because, yes... he wanted the pain to go away... that's why he drunk a lot. But when push comes to shove, what he really really wanted was forgiveness for what he'd done.
I think this is distinctively different from Moash. Who's only looking for the pain to go away. And when push comes to shove, will do anything to not feel it anymore.
But this is my interpretation only. No one is wrong or right.
This was going to be my point as well. Everytime they said Dalinar and Moash asked for the same thing, but Dalinar got lucky and asked the "good" God, I was hoping someone would make bring up that that isn't what actually happened.
In my opinion, that moment is the true moment that Dalinar is redeemed. It's the moment I forgave him, at least. Here he is in front of a God, one known for granting the wishes of mortals, and rather than ask anything, he begs for forgiveness. Had Dalinar not done that, had he gone with his original plan, the comparison between the his and Moash's interactions with Gods would be much more valid and I think Dalinar would be a much less sympathetic character for it.
I don't think it's very fair to be too hard on Szeth for what he did. He was proclaimed Truthless. He hated himself for everything he was forced to do, even simply walking on stone hurt him. He still hears the voices of those that he murdered. Szeth didn't kill people because he was evil, or because he gave in to Odium. Szeth is SO honorable, that he gave up his own free will in consequence of what he believed he did wrong.
I think the issue is diffusion of responsibility. Like in concentration camps the soldiers would say they were just following orders. Szeth was proclaimed truthless, but we see throughout the books that he always wants someone else to make the decisions for him. It’s easy for Szeth to say ‘I’m honorable, I’m just doing this because someone told me to and that’s why it’s their fault’
@@aidenkennett5062 Szeth never diffused responsibility... He acknowledged the fact that HE was the one killing people.
@@carlsmith4568 Exactly, that's the difference between the two. Moash blames everyone else. He blames the world but Szeth accepts that while he has to Obey. He is still to blame and must accept the crimes on his own soul.
The main difference between Dalinar and Moash is that, after being stripped of his pain, one decides to abandon the path of destruction and the other embraces it.
Dalinar chooses to be his better self and to be accountable of his deeds when stripped of his pain, Moash becomes his worst self and is continuosly evading accountability for his actions.
Great take. Never thought about them being men who were at the same point but took different paths. Taking responsibility for one's life is always a great step to take and those two are great examples
I do think that's a good distinction, but also feel that Dalinar took a LONG time to take that first step and had a lot of external help and support to get there. I think a lot of it is that even at his worst we knew what Dalinar would become and that made it easier to bear - whereas with Moash all his betrayal and hurt he puts into the world just hits right in the heart.
@@rashenditrash Dalinar was never satisfied with being a murderer except at a very young age, he always had alcohol problems to cover that, always had deep character problems, but he was willing to change even before being tamed down by his wife, he spent a lot of time setting rules to his fury, the dead of his wife set everything in stone, but he was willing to change since before that event, he was unwilling to kill his brother for his rage, Moash never wanted to let go his hatred, even when he was stripped of his guilt, he doubled down on his hatred, when he had no reason to harm a brother who saved his life, he choosed to make him commit suicide, they are not even comparable.
Edit: And the change in Dalinar after being stripped of his pain was instantaneous, while Moash after being stripped of his guilt decided to kill everyone he knows even if they had been friends with him in the past, just for entertaining himself, he has no goal, he's just a psyco with a magic sword.
Yes, but he also got the right assistance at the right time by Cultivation. If that wasn't there then it is likely Dalinar would end up just like Moash. The casters also brought this up and I think it is important. It's not just about doing the right thing, it's also the right opportunity and timely support that also counts.
@@Haxerous For me is more important the personal choice, Odium is not compelling Moash to kill, Cultivation was not compelling Dalinar to grow, both of them only took what was causing pain to Moash and Dalinar, they both had a chance to choose who they wanted to be, Dalinar just after being stripped of his pain and Moash when the voidbringer ask him what he want, Dalinar wanted to be an example to his kids and a support to the legacy of his brother, Moash very clearly choose to be a murderer.
Edit: We can see that with Leshwi, she is made of Odium investiture, and she still have honor in her, she choose to be that way, while Moash who is not made of Odium essence is very obsessed with making Kaladin kill himself to be right, because he can't bear the feeling of someone being better than him.
Comments are good for the youtube algorithm.
Also F#$& Moash
Comments are good for the CZcams algorithm
The Adolin Sadeus comparison with Moash Elokhar was frustrating to me. The huge difference that wasn't brought up was that one of those people was actively threatening Adolin and his family, he had already tried to kill Dalinar multiple times and was putting the wellbeing of everyone at risk by his actions. Elokhar didn't even know who Moash was largely. They had both been wronged in the past by the person they killed but only one of them was actively going out of their way to continue to wrong them.
Exactly, and Adolin killing Sadeas was to stop a threat, and all of the shit Sadeas did to the Kholins was within the last couple months. Moash's family has been dead for a good 7+ years. Not even close in terms of time or possible threat to others.
I really appreciated Matt's argument about grey morality. I really feel similarly and I thought it was a create compliment to the earlier point that forgiveness and redemption is inherently unfair
As some who comes from a marginalized community that is often discriminated against for various reason and looked down upon by other I can relate to Moash’s resentment toward light eyes and humanity for how his family was treated by the light-eyed upper class. I hope he get a redemption arch since I can understand his resentment.
Kelsier is the person who can't get past his anger but doesn't let it be his sole motivation in the end
I think moash should be redeemed because if he's interacting with dalinar or navani and they confront him with killing elhokar he should push back and stand for it, lighteyes didn't get consequences his (grand)parents got murder for profit. Revenge isn't good but he would never have faced justice, elhokar that is, thus killing him was somewhat legitimate
The seminal modern example of an "atonement" arc that is unsettling, satisfying and seemingly accurate no one mentioned was Bojack Horseman.
Bojack faces permanent consequences for patterns he has exhibited despite whether he will do the work or not BECAUSE the people who are impacted by his acts distance themselves from him, removing the crutches.
This was a fascinating discussion. Some thoughts:
-If Moash survives, I think that in the back five he will still be coming back and recovering, and I can see this moment where Gavinor goes to kill Moash and finds that he isn’t a fully bad guy and has to figure out how to let go of that hatred that he has toward this man, much like Katara in the episode of atla where she goes to kill the man who killed her mother.
-Everything about the class system themes is so interesting. I’m wondering if Brandon can see this and what he will do about it if so.
-I was glad you guys talked about Zuko, I was getting real worried when you’d been talking about redemption arcs for like ten minutes and he hadn’t been mentioned once 😂
Great episode! Honestly the thought that this was coming Saturday sustained me through the this week.....
Thanks for an excellent and thoughtful discussion. Really appreciate Shannon's insights and comments. Didn't think I could stand 2 hours of Moash discussion, but you guys made it very interesting.
This conversation about the morality of Moash is really intriguing. Really got some gears turning in my head.
I think the reason Sanderson feels comfortable going this direction is because he has Venli, who is also hates the people in charge for killing her friends and deceiving her and wants to build something better. So we still have both sides of the issue. Also, the human side hasn't given up on reforms. Jasnah stopped slavery and duels to the death and has overall improved a lot of laws without all the blood and chaos of a revolution, partly because of Kaladin's influence (that scene in oathbringer where they argue about morality and that scene in row where he leans on her authority to get things done). idk but to me it feels like there's still a lot of nuance on the subject outside of moash
Kaladin should not ever be okay with moash after he killed teft in front of him. Even if there is redemption he and kaladin shouldn't ever be happy seeing him.
@Anne Day I will be very interested to see how Brandon writes Moash's redemption if that's the direction the character goes. Unforgiveable and unforgettable are not mutually exclusive, but they rarely exist simultaneously because humanity's natural reaction to being wronged is fight or flight, not extend forgiveness to the evildoer. True forgiveness is a way of living, not just a singular action that you make and move on, especially with actions as heinous as murder. I'm very curious to see Brandon's take on this as the series progresses.
@@winter117a I'm personally drawn towards an addict in active addiction. Is what moash did worse than dalinar burning a city? Probably not, objectively. So can moash have a moral beginning? Maybe?
Maybe I've been listening to dalinar's third ideal too much though. To be a journey there must be a beginning.
And yet Adolin can still have a relationship with Dalinar when he literally killed his mommy?
@@simpsonman956 scarred and through deep compartmentalizing and rationalizing, yeah. It wouldn't shock me all that much if, should Moash have a redemption that ends with him being around Kaladin, Kaladin starts referring to Vyre and Moash as two entirely different beings, just like Adolin blames the Thrill for Evi's death. _If_ Kaladin is ever forced to work together with Moash its either gonna be one hell of a painful and long process, or Moash will be trying to get across how sorry he is while Kal just goes "that wasn't you, shut up about it before I change my mind and shardspear the fuck out of you"
I think a bit problem I have with Moash is that there is a lack of accountability. He gives his emotions, and by proxy his ability to be held accountable for his actions, to Odium and uses this as a blanket to justify himself.
For me, however much worse Dalinar’s actions are, once he remembered them he did not shy away from it and wanted to be held to account
Agreed, also does everyone forget that dalinar had a literal unmade basically forcing him into a dissasociative state for the majority of the violence?
@@danielbroome5690 I kinda like it that hardly anyone talks about that. Lets be honest, if we found out that someone committed horrible crimes in real life because an actual mind controlling and emotion bending entity spent the better part of four decades eroding their mind, I think we'd _all_ be pretty happy to lay the blame for all that person's done on said evil entity... But Dalinar _specifically_ asks for us not to think of it that way. Yeah, there is little to no chance he'd have done 99% of what he did in his life without the Thrill, but he _doesn't want_ this to excuse his mistakes. Every Alethi during that time was also under the Thrill (probably none as strongly as Dalinar since Odium wanted him in particular, true, but they all still were), and yet his violence was so much more extreme than theirs.
I don't think it's particularly healthy for Dalinar to say everything he did was his fault, there is definitely a good amount of it he _should_ be blaming on the Thrill, but it'd be really hard for him to go down that path without excusing himself of accountability.
Amazing artwork for this episode.
Moash is striking up but he's also striking down considering he doesn't care who gets hurt to get him to his goals.
Same as in the expanse when the oppressed belt spins off terror groups. They might be justifiably mad at the inner worlds but they are 100% ok justifying civilian murders just to spite them.
You lose your righteous oppressed anger privileges when you start allowing or helping kill other oppressed people or just people related to the people in power.
I gotta say, it's nice to hear someone say it's okay to not be able to get over Dalinar's past. My friends often say, oh well Dalinar claimed responsibility for his actions so he's all good... but like he admitted that it was him (not Odium or the Thrill) that delighted in the slaughter of thousands of people, burnt a city and it's inhabitants to the ground, and (literally) destroyed his marriage.
I'm sorry but, saying 'Whoops, my bad' isn't just gonna magically un-ruin all those peoples live's.
Glad to hear I'm not crazy.
Edit 1: oh 21:38 Ian said it better than I could've
Edit 2: Having listened a little further to what Matt/Shannon said... I suppose I can see Dalinar as being mostly redeemed... but I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive his past.
All that said... I don't know why Dalinar's actions are a hurdle I cannot overcome, but I've always been Shallan's side, even throughout the revelation of her parent's (and spren's) murder(s). Like, they both ultimately couldn't deal with their actions, forgot what they had done, and shaped who they came to be with the remembrance of those acts... I dunno. Maybe it's because she didn't wan't to do what she did? Anyone else feel this way? Am I just a Shallan apologist?
Yeah, I personally think Dalinar's story worked for me but I think it is TOTALLY reasonable if anyone just can't get over the horrible things he did. They were horrendous for sure. So no complaints from me on that; it's a totally reasonable position to have though the story worked for me. -Eric
There's a difference in someone improving themself, whether that person is redeemed (or even redeemable), and whether that person deserves forgiveness.
I would say he has changed, is attempting to redeem himself, but is not necessarily worthy of forgiveness yet.
Shallan was a child when she kills her mother in self-defense, and after that her father becomes an abuser of her and her siblings. I can defend each one of her actions easily.
@@17thShard Just want to say, I know there were jokes/concerns about 'hot takes' and this being a controversial episode, but it was really wonderful. Thanks to you and the crew for all the work y'all do in putting out such great content.
@@Karmic_Guide Glad to hear it; I thought it went really well. -Eric
Moash is setting up to be a perfect hero in the second half of the series after everyone dies... perhaps Kal’s death with shock him good.
The one thing Moash did see was Elokhar swearing that first ideal. So he sees none of the redemption leading up to that, and sees him joining the Knights Radiant. This man who in his eyes was evil, is now joining up with that organization and they don't even care about what he did. That would also make it very easy to paint radiants in that light of they accepted Elokhar they're all like that.
Except that he knows Kaladin. And that plotting to kill the king stripped Kaladin of his powers. Powers that Kaladin had used to protect Moash and all of Bridge 4. Don't forget that the Rashone affair happened a good 7+ years ago. A 20-17 year old Elokhar made a mistake.
@@crazyscotsman9327 I'd be surprised if moash connected what he did with kaladin losing his powers given he didn't see the details there. And even with the time gap elhokar still killed his grandparents and that's not a minor thing.
The Mink should be a champion!!!
I think Moash has a chair with his name on it at Kal's support group.
I came into this episode thinking, "I completely hate Moash, I don't really want to listen to this episode, but hell I will maybe listen to like 5 mins and then skip"... But I am 1hr 30 mins in and WOW. This was such an eye opener. Shannon, Matt, Alyx and all of you really gave me a LOT to think about and thanks for pointing out the parallels between Moash, Dalinar and Adolin. I think I can take these lessons and apply it to my daily life, and try to better understand my own biases.
Thank you guys! This episode was worth every second of my time.
Jasnah is a very clear supporter of the idea that the Alethy system is flawed and she has been very actively changing it so I don’t think we can argue that Moash is the only one who is acting against it.
The point is he is the only dark eyes who was trying to.
@@cold12u What are you talking about? Dalinar literally put Kaladin in charge of his personal guard and let him speak, give advice during important Court meetings. He gave a slave who he knew for less then a month the ability to speak on policy and gave him more power then any Dark Eyes ever had in his army, in any army. If they had more time Kaladin probably would have been the first of many dark eyes who became leaders and broke down the barriers. It's just the literal end of the world right now and they have other things to deal with.
It's worth pointing out that Dalinar was in basically a dissasociative state due to the unmade thrill manipulating his emotions and "rioting" them whereas Moash simply removes his pain and uses it as an excuse for calculated violence. It can be argued that dalinar was not in control of himself in a very legal sense. This is what Odium says to him and it is true in a way, true he had to accept his guilt but that was in a very Greek mythology way like Hercules killing his family when driven mad by Hera and then needing to redeem his honor by doing the 10 tasks. I think those 2 stories are extremely similar. Hercules did nothing wrong because of his altered state of mind, but by Greek and in our case HONOR's standard for oaths he was guilty as the body who did it and must redeem himself
Wasn’t Dalinar also under influence of the Thrill?
One thing I haven't seen discussed in the comments or in this episode which I find relevant in the "Redeemable" conversation between Moash and Dalinar is the fact that Dalinar is a freaking Bondsmith!! Not just a Radiant, but the Stormfather himself bonded with Dalinar! Readers therefore are able to redeem him, while not necessarily excusing him for his actions. It's easy for us to think "ok, this guy may have done terrible things in his past, but he's clearly the good guy if this child of Honor bonded with him instead of anyone else". I don't think we know the history of other Bondsmiths in Roshar well enough, but were there ever any "evil" Bondsmiths? I doubt it...
(Long theory essay incoming…)
We have seen many characters choose the right path, so it would be nice to see the opposite.
I think Kaladin and Moash are just two sides of the same coin like Dalinar and Taravangian. They started out the same but took different paths. Even Kaladin said that he sees himself in Moash.
Moash is like a mirror to Kaladin but he made the wrong decision.
He has the hatered for those who wronged him and also a lot of guilt. But he chose not to live with that guilt.
Life before death. We see that Kaladin tries hard to continue even if he is not well. He can’t let go of his guilt for a long time but chooses to live with it because he decided to try one last time and he has to protect others so he can’t just give up. But Moash can not live with his feelings and he believes Odium’s lie that he doesn’t have a choice so he gives himself up to him completely. Essentially dying as Moash and starting a new life with a new name.
Moash can’t live with the pain and thinks there are only two ways. Either die or give up the pain and live for some greater being because the miserable life of little people is just not worth it. He even says to Kaladin that there are only two paths and he has to not exist or give up the pain to stop hurting.
He seems to care about Kal or at least respect him and he really wants to end his suffering. Maybe he wants to repay him for the things he did for him and wants to make things easier for Kal in his own way. Because Kaladin is the only person who matters for him.
Kaladin found purpose in protecting others because he cares about them. This caused a lot of pain for him but he continues the journey anyway.
But Moash only cares about himself. He doesn’t let anyone close to himself because of the fear of pain. He severs his ties so he doesn’t have to care and can do whatever he wants to.
Only one bond remains. Kaladin.
He is the only one who matters because he is like Moash and has to make the same decision.
Moash might care about Kaladin and wants to really “help” him and end his sufferin but it’s not the main reason he pushes him to decide.
He needs to be right.
He needs confirmation that he made the right decision. And if Kaladin who always knows what’s right agrees than he did not make a mistake. Than it’s right to follow vegeance. Than it’s alright to be a monster.
Because there is no way he can live with his guilt and emotions. Nobody can. Except Kaladin. So Kal has to fail and admit that it’s impossible and with that justify Moash’s decision.
But instead Kaladin let go.
And I think this is the biggest difference between them. Moash is unable to let go. It was hard for Kal too but he slowly did it one step at a time.
So I can imagine a fight of ideals between the two where Kaladin shows Moash that there is a way to let go of the pain and heal. And Moash exepts that he made a big mistake and essentially became what he wanted to destroy. (He is the same for little Gavinor what Elhokar was for him.) But he thinks he doesn’t deserve to be saved and can’t let go of the guilt.
Kaladin would except that he has to let him take his decision and respect it.
And because Moash is a dark mirror to Kaladin he makes the opposite decision and jumps.
Maybe he does something good before like steps up against Odium but ultimately dies in the end.
It would be a heartbreaking moment for us and Kaladin but it would be a great character moment for Moash. He exepts his faliours but he is not absolved from his mistakes.
I would like that ending for him but if not I’m down to see some adult Gavinor and Moash interactions later on. It would hit hard.
So, after all this, here is how I think this will go down
A) I love the "tries to be a hero, and die, but Kaliden saves him"arc
B) in the back half we catch back up to him, and after much introspection, is ready to redeem himself finally. He accepts his pain and guilt, and while not working in the system, starts doing good things with his righteous anger.
B.5)He becomes a dust bringer, kills some bigoted light eyes who can't accept dark eyes are becoming equals now, and Moash is a hero for it( maybe in dust bringer book even????)
C) he becomes a foil for Gavinore, where Gavinore can't accept that Moash is becoming a good person, and spends more time than is healthy trying to kill Moash
C.5) fandom argues over Gavinore stuff because half the fandom still wants Gavinore to kill Moash for everything he did in the first half
D)????????
E) they learn to tolerate each other long enough to get the happy ending of book 10
Intent matters in the cosmere. Comparing Dalinar and Moash on actions alone or by redemption arcs without intent is incomplete. Also, I’m pretty sure the thrill was Odium’s, right? I mean, Odium was manipulating Dalinar for years. Dalinar’s redemption is him taking accountability. Moash cannot have a redemption without him taking accountability and changing his intent behind actions.
16:00
Didn't Dalinar ask to be forgiveness? That's different than asking to be free of guilt. Moash feels bad for what he did, but doesn't want to hurt. He wants both things: what he wants and to be free of consequences. That is what Odium used to keep him in his place
I didn't come to the Stormlight Archive until after Oathbringer had come out, and I saw the "F*** Moash" memes before starting the series. And I thought it originated from the assassination attempt on Elkohar in WoR, when he is willing to kill Kaladin to finish the assassination. Then I read Oathbringer and I felt the meme that much stronger...
One thing I find interesting in relation to Moash and redemption is his blindness at the end of RoW. To me this feels like setting him up to have to spend a lot of time reflecting internally on his pain and guilt, the trauma that brought him to where he is and what he has done. He no longer has the outlet of violence to distract himself with as he isn't trained to fight blind, he won't be useful to Odium and could be cast out, left again with no place to go and no support system to help him through. I think that would be a good place for a spren to come in, an ashspren would suit if he was working on refining his power while trying to train to be able to fight in his new situation, but there are many ways he could go from there. I think his eventual healing, if it would happen, would symbolise him ready to see the world again with new perspective, all of the pain he has both endured and inflicted, ready to truly face it rather than shying away or shoving it onto someone else.
I see 2 hours and Moash, and I'm thinking, "How? How is there that much to talk about?" You guys always manage to make it fun, though!
Simple
1. Intro
2. "F*** moash"
3. repeat #2 until it's time for who's that cosmere character
With regard to Moash and what his blindness represents, one clear comparison is Saul from the Bible, who persecuted the Christians and was stricken blind. He became Paul the Saint...so I think a redemption arc is likely (especially considering Brandon’s beliefs).
Also, Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher to ask to forget, but what he actually asked for was forgiveness - which is an important distinction. If he hadn’t asked for that the Nightwatcher would have been able to grant his wish, but she wasn’t even capable of comprehending what he wanted.
Moash will be by far on of my favorite antiheroes in by the time all ten books are written. Everyone will see he will either get a redemption arch or does something heroic in the end.
Also, the other thing we are not saying here is that the character dying after being redeemed is easier FOR US. I would argue that Vader dying is a cop out. The whole trope is a cop out, but is more palatable to mass audiences (particularly children).
I expect more from Brandon.
In the end I think that Moash finds that Kaladin not only had the potential to be what Moash was at that very moment but also shows which path Moash could have gone on if not for his beliefs of vengeance and warped justice
I didn't know that there was so much hesitancy over whether Dalinar deserves a good ending or whatever. I love Dalinar because he is already doing good things, maybe he won't get rid of the "red in his ledger" but at the moment he's doing good things (almost exclusively good things) and Moash isn't, he's running away, true in the same way Dalinar is but I'm not gonna like someone until they are on that road.
Moash COULD be redeemed but I'm never gonna want it UNTIL he starts to walk that path. Like Theon, did I want a redemption? Not until he STARTED redeeming himself
also the way it is done it is natural we are more personally affected by what Moash did than Dalinar but I just need to FEEL it
I hate Moash and the choices he's making and love to hate him as a person. That being said, I love watching characters suffer and seeing how that shapes them and I'm REALLY curious to see what Moash does. I want Brandon to take him on a rollercoaster of pain and trauma and see how he does.
I personally have a strong sympathy towards moash. Half of words is Kaladin struggling with killing Elhokar despite being much less personally involved than moash. Kal came to the honorable position at the end, but Moash could still see why he needs to deal with his issues.
I'm morally basing this on the idea of christian forgiveness and that the book is ultimately about overcoming your own mental struggles. I think finding some actual personal inner peace or at least mental atonement is necessary.
I keep coming back to the idea of addiction. Moash choosing deadness reminds me of addicts in their height. They know it's fucked up but they can't accept it, where they are then. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve peace
Which makes it all the more fucked up that Moash kills Teft. For all his "I'm Kaladin"' bluster, Teft was the Bridge Four member who most likely could see and understand him
A thought occurred to me at the mention of Vyre's blindness:
Correct me if I'm wrong - and forgive my paraphrasing of the quote - but I believe there is a WoB where Brandon explains the stormlight healing works by matching your physical body to your idealized version of yourself (hence why Kaladin's scars didn't heal at first). Vyre going blind after colliding with the wall suggests that he gave himself brain damage with that impact, but we know that stormlight can heal brain damage (see shallow taking a crossbow bolt to the skull in Oathbringer).
SO, since Vyre' stormlight DIDN'T heal his blindness, that implies that he thinks his ideal self is someone who doesn't have to see what's in front of him (or perhaps, doesn't have to face what he's done?) Let that sink in.
In short, if he is due for a redemption arc. I don't think it will be in the near future.
Here's a thought, what if Odium is desperate to prevent Moash from becoming someone in particular. He used Moash and the vision to try and prevent Kaladin from becoming a greater threat. What if Moash unguided by Odium poses a greater threat.
Further if Moash is permanently blind Odium might just discard him and stop giving him no emotion drugs
Not that I necessary like the idea of Kaladin dying (what a tragedy that would be) but if that were to happen, I really hope that Moash survives and kind of continues Kal's legacy of helping those in need while improving himself into a man that was worthy of standing beside Kal (like in the vision/impression Renarin shows him). I feel that seeing someone as guilt ridden and damaged as Moash try to live up to the kind of ideals that Kal achieved (even though I don't know that moash would necessarily be a windrunner) would be really interesting. The idea of him having a confeontation/heart to heart with Gavinor would be a really neat interaction out of it too, since we could be faced with a situation where Moash still doesn't like/particularly respect lighteye nobility (but has changed from his more stabby ways to a reformist/maybe has made his own freedom fighter band a la bridge 4/maybe with singers) but feels guilty for killing the guys dad, and a Gavinor that hates that moash killed his dad, but has to grapple with the fact that he's a man who has changed for the better, and it's not fair to forgive his father figure Dalinar and not Moash. Idk, I just think it would be neat
I don't think Moash doesn't want to be redeemed. I think he's scared what redemption would mean for him.
I'd say the point where the Moash - Dalinar parallel breaks down is how each of them reacted once their pain came back.
Both of them were weak enough to flee from their feelings of guilt and horror at their actions. But when Dalinar received his back, he decided to swallow it, accept it and move on with this new weight. Moash ran as fast as he could back to Odium to get his numbness back.
If we were really on parallel lines here, after Navani started singing the anti-Odium tone, Moash would have stuck around Urithiru to help protect people from the final Fused attack and would have sought out Kaladin to try to make amends.
The key difference between them seems to be that they both did horrible things, were small enough to not be able to face themselves... But Dalinar, as he says in Oathbringer, is willing to take the next step. Moash, so far, is not.
Ian's comment was a reminder that once upon a time Doctor Who was a good show.
What a good two hours, thanks guys!
This may be my favorite post-RoW shardcast! I wasn't expecting that because honestly, I feel a bit apathetic about Moash's character. Before watching this I think my answer would have been that I didn't want him to have a redemption arc because I don't want pages wasted on him that could be spent on other characters and plots I care more about. This deep-dive helped me understand why I feel the way I do about him though. Thanks for this discussion y'all!
I think what makes a lot of sense based on the way Brandon has treated Moash is that while he may not get a 'redemption arc' a la Zuko, there will be something about his final confrontation with Kaladin (who is travelling with Szeth, someone who on paper and body count, is truly a monster despite the fact we're choosing collectively based on the writing to cut him more slack for this and get those juicy book5 flashbacks -- another interesting foil) that will have a redemptive element, or more of an 'aha' Plato in the cave moment. Would be cool to see Moash not be redeemed in this book per se, but saved so that he can ATONE in someway (similar vibes for how Ironeyes has evolved as a character/plot device in the Mistborn trilogy).
I think one can pick up on Dalinar actively trying to improve and distance himself from the praise of people like Sadeas; obviously we didn't know how bad he was but there's something there
1:10:00 Brandon might be making a point about the "anger of the oppressed" and how it can be taken advantage of and misdirected.
brandon has surprised me certainly, but on that i have my doubts
@@rottenisee2751 well prepare to be surprised then!
@@burnzille924 i hope so
Forgiveness is for the forgiver more than the forgiven.
This dude is the Gollum of the Stormlight Archive, he’s about to do some weird shit during the Contest of Champions
How I want moash's arc to end : ' Man thrashes blind person '😂
Fundamentally disagree with gray on people deserving redemption/forgiveness. Yes to be forgiven requires you to have done something wrong. But everyone deserves to be forgiven if they try and make good. As Brandon had told us it's about the journey not the destination
A lot of people want to weigh sins when discussing Moash, with the usual example being Dalinar burning a city vs Moash attempting (and eventually succeeding) in assassinating Elhokar.
What isn't discussed as often is that different sins or "evil" deeds are weighed differently in people's minds. Often, betrayal is considered worse than than murder, so it isn't the assassination that causes him to seem evil, but the betrayal of Kaladin and Bridge Four. This is shown in literature and philosophy over the centuries, with the most famous example being Dante's Inferno, where the ninth circle of hell being for traitors and betrayers, while violence is only the seventh circle.
Matt mentions this, but it doesn't really get picked up or expanded in the discussion.
But Elhokar's murder isn't a betrayal, though. A betrayal supposes that trust has been broken. Kaladin didn't trust that Moash won't kill Elhokar. He knew that that is Moash's goal and there has never been any doubt about that.
@@geosustento8894 it was a betrayal of their friendship. They both knew how the other felt, but Moash acted in a way that was manipulative and abusive to try and get him over to his side.
@@wraith.ferron Moash did what he thought was the right thing to do. He didn't kill Elhokar to play with Kaladin's feelings. If you meant the salute he did after doing the deed, I don't see him doing it in any way to mock Kaladin. For me, it appears more like him doing what he knows Kaladin can't do but what he feels to be something that needs to be done. He wouldn't have killed Elhokar if what he wanted was to get Kaladin on his side because he knows full well from their conversation and confrontation in WoR that it will just alienate him further.
If you meant him killing Teft, it's useful to note that he's no longer the same person. He's no more than a puppet of Odium at that point and only does what Odium wants him to do as evident by how horrified he was when his link to Odium broke for a moment and the guilt creeped in. So, holding that deed against Moash is a bit more nuanced that most people think.
@@geosustento8894 I mean for when he was telling Kaladin to stand aside and just let him assassinate Elhokar in Words of Radiance
@@wraith.ferron so... how is that a betrayal if he's being perfectly honest? Again, a betrayal necessitates a breaking of trust. If he said he won't hurt Elhokar, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case. In fact, if anything, it's Kaladin who betrayed Moash since he's the one who said he will not interfere in what Moash is trying to do.
Wow that is some fantastic art in the thumbnail
Grey morality just means you can sympathize with the villains. Moash is a grey villain in words of radiance where clearly Sanderson wants you to see what he’s doing as wrong but you aren’t invested enough to dislike what he’s doing or you like the bad guy enough to actively cheer for the villain. Everyone being bad is just easier to pull off because you have to like someone or you won’t read it.
Too many comments on this point to reply to, so I thought I'd just start new - just wanted to say I'm really enjoying the discussions around the nuances and distinctions between Dalinar and Moash. I think, for me at least, in the episode I took it for granted that 'Dalinar is the good guy / Moash-Vyre is the bad guy' was implicit in how the books are set up, so the counter perspective required more analysis and discussion. While I find the comparison really compelling - the contrasts are also very fun to dig into.
Adolin kind of holds Dalinar accountable in Rhythm of War when he says to Shalon that he might eventually be able to forgive him for killing his mother.
So excited for this episode, but also a little scared...
Me: Wow this was a really deep conversation about redemption and forgiveness, a ton of interesting points made, especially on the class stuff and comparing what Moash has done to people like Adolin and Dalinar.
Also me: FMoash
For real though I thought this episode was really good. If there was one point I think you guys maybe missed/didn't hit hard enough, it would be the difference between killing Sadeas or Elhokar, and then the book 4 stuff where moash is trying to get his best friend to kill himself, and kills another good friend. The difference between doing bad stuff to people who have done bad stuff to you, vs people who have done nothing to you, vs people who have been there for you and helped you, is astronomically worse and harder to forgive/be redeemed for. I honestly thought the fandom was WAYYYYY too hard on Moash after Oathbringer, but now after Rythm of War I honestly don't have any interest in Moash getting redeemed or honestly reading about the character any more. I honestly think Brandon took it too far for a lot of readers to be on board for the eventual redemption arc
Thank you so much for uploading to Spotify
My thoughts is that Moash *not* getting a redemption arc will elaborate on the Journey Before Destination theme just as well, if not better, and if he does get a redemption arc. The theme isn't only just that the journey is more important than the destination, but also that you're journey SHAPES you - So because Moash's journey is an immortal one, he is making himself into an immoral person more than someone who will be redeemed in the end. That is not to say that his goal/desired destination is also bad.
I imagine two possibilities with how Moash will go and I would say they both end in death. The first possible is essentially the same as Killmonger from the end of the Marvel Black Panther. Being offered redemption after a Kaladin confrontation yet holding to his beliefs about the Alethi injustice and choosing death instead.
The second is a little more obscure. Ray Liotta plays a survivor of the attack on the Alamo in Texas rising which results in a psychotic break as he comes to in the burning rubble surrounded by his fallen comrades and family. He then goes on a killing spree sort of like Rambo except it is against all Mexicans both civilian and military. At one point he kills an entire group traveling and kills everyone but misses a young boy. Fast forward to the end when Santa Anna is defeated we see a cool redemption arc where he regains his humanity and starts to fall in love. He goes to a community/church pick-nick and the boy that survived his attack earlier on recognizes him despite having shaved, not being covered in blood and dirt, and bent on death. The boy finds a pistol and shoots him, and before he dies he essentially says it's okay I basically deserved that.
I think the first is far more likely but the second would be really cool to see that come full circle with Gavinor if Brandon decided he wanted to take that long with Moash.
Per Aristotle- Anger, like every other part of life is best expressed in the right way, at the right time, for the right reasons, to the right degree...
Just venting is destructive and causes one to often become worse than he whom one vents anger upon.
In terms of the discussion about dark eyes falling in line being considered “good”, I do think that Lirin should be considered. I feel like Lirin is what Sanderson uses as an example of a dark eye not getting angry and just falling into line. I would say that Rhythm of War goes to great lengths to show that not getting angry and just accepting getting oppressed is not always the right choice. Kaladin does fall in line compared to Moash, but he is extremely rebellious compared to Lirin. I don’t necessarily disagree with your guys’ point, but I thought it was an interesting counter point.
This was one of the best Shardcasts I've seen. Great discussion about such a controversial character.
IMO any character could be redeemed ... but I'm not sure if Moash should. I don't think it would fit the narrative.
I heartly agree with Shannon and Matt's opinions. I would love to see in future books a dark-eyed POV addressing deficiencies in the justice system. Good people but not aligning themselves with the Kholins. Perhaps showing Jasnah and the ruling class the hypocrisy of eliminating slavery but keep considering a part of the population second-class citizens.
Also, Love Ian's reference to Van Gogh's episode in DW. "Every life is a pile of good things and bad things... The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa, the bad things don’t necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant. "
Did Shannon really think that Dragonball Z is too old of a reference to make?! Really?
An act of self-protection only, Paul! I can't be called old if I do it myself.
ok, my stance on moash has changed now
Moash = Anakin Skywalker, Vyre=Darth Vader. So of course he's going to have a redemption arc that probably involves saving Kaladin lol.
Wrong on one point, Dalinar asked if he could be forgiven not to have his pain taken away. Cultivation took his pain temporarily to help grow, but ultimately he had to face it in order to achieve his goal of being forgiven. He did originally intend to ask for the pain to go away but when he actually met the nightwatcher he asked for forgiveness. What he asked for is not what Moash asked for. Odium offered to take away his pain, Dalinar refused because he wanted forgiveness not numbness. Very different request that want Moash has pursued so far. I don't agree at all that the only thing that was different between Moash and Dalinar was which god they went to. The point of the similarity is to show that getting rid of the pain doesn't heal you it makes you worse. You could argue Dalinar was worse than Moash, I would agree, but the thing he asked for is not the same thing Moash has asked for thus far.
This has been my favorite episode of the bunch, a very interesting chat about a very interesting character
Been waiting for this episode :) my night is sorted now!
i don’t like moash for what he did to kaladin, but i don’t really care that he killed elhokar because jasnah becoming ruler is a net benefit for roshar
1:32:23 Yeah, I really expected Sah to become a viewpoint character that we were going to see a lot more of in the next few books... but nope.
I agree with a lot of the nuance in here. I still don't like him, more or less solely because of his character traits (I can't stand it when people don't own up to their stupid choices and mistakes and shift the blame to others). oof to his hypocrisy.
On top of that, we have him torture Kaladin both directly and indirectly. No matter the reason for his actions, torture isn't ever ok IMO.
Kal let go of most of the Roshone anger because he realized there was better stuff with his time, not because Roshone was forgiven. Roshone was just totally pitiable. That man was a sad husk. lol
I'm curious to see how Szeth is going to develop. We were promised friction between Kal and Szeth, and I want my friction and see how their dynamics change. That would be so interesting to see happen...
As a side note: how do we know anyone being the leader of the Knights Radiant is a good thing? It's not as if that organization hasn't messed up big time in the past. Stormlight is just becoming more and more of a moral/philosophical dilemma. I really liked the convo at the end of Oathbringer where Kaladin and Syl are talking about the previous downfall of the Knights Radiant.
Falling down step by step (or sliding of off a cliff) into bad choices is something that came up about Moash in this episode a lot. This could be another foil-type situation. The Radiants are mainly supposed to represent Honor and Moash would the Odium's rep here. Honor went crazy and took the Radiants with him. It seems like Odium is taking his followers with him as well. It's just that the Intents they stand for are more or less opposites so the effects are different.
I wouldn't call it darkness per see. Just madness, possibly.
On the topic of Odium, I don't like the whole apologetic aspect that the Intent of the Shard introduces. Yes, people are still responsible for their own actions, but as soon as you say they did it under Odium's influence, their whole motivation or the reasons why they act that way just don't really matter anymore. This way you can say: ah, well. This abuser was under Odium's influence and thus acted like an a-hole. They did what they did, but they aren't the reason for their behavior.
I once heard someone say Shallan's father was under Odium's influence and that was why he acted in such an abusive manner. That really hit me in the wrong way. As someone who's gone through similar hardships, I don't like the reasons for people behaving that way being negated by basically making the person being 'possessed by the devil. There can be legitimate reasons, mental health or psychiatric, for people's behavior. It felt like a total invalidation even if Brandon has never confirmed this to be true. The idea alone is something I don't like.
People talk about redemption in strange ways. They talk about Darth Vader in RotJ like he redeemed himself, but the guy still murdered children and played a part in the destruction of an entire planet. But then he threw the emperor into a pit to stop him from torturing his son. Ok, all is forgiven. Vader and Dalinar have both done things worse than Moash, but people say that their redemptions are ok, but F*** Moash! I hate him. I don't really want him to be redeemed. I think the only way it can be somewhat satisfying is if his redemption occurs by betraying Odium at just the right moment to make sure the good guys win, then dying. That in and of itself is kind of a common trope, see Vader example above, but I could see that kind of thing in Moash's future.
I made this comment a little before Vader was brought up by Eric.
This all comes down to retributive versus restorative justice. The former validates your anger and comforts you temporarily, but in the long run, it kinda blows, because it doesn't really fix anything. For example, a lot of minor criminals turn into recidivists after being in jail. Sure the victim might be happy that the guy who did them wrong is probably getting raped somewhere out there, but on a larger scale, "eye for an eye" is pure bullshit. Moash gained retribution by killing Elhokar - look what it did to him and everyone around him. Singers want revenge and the flip side of that desire is that they're mostly insane and the ones who aren't are just tired and regretful.
On the other hand, restorative justice that takes aim at rehabilitating people and fixing systemic issues that brought them to do bad things in the first place might not give you the fuzzies of watching your enemies scream in pain, but society as a whole gains another productive member and actual problems get addressed. I think Dalinar actually did a good job of it. Where's imagine if Mink just stabbed his ass on arrival due to misguided (although justifiable) spite. Humanity on Roshar would probably be screwed at that point. If not - it would at least be way worse off. All because of some ONE guy's feelings.
I'm gonna go meta now and suggest that the fact that most people at least approve of Dalinar and hate Moash with a passion underlines logical inconsistencies that lead to the fact, that we as a species are still at large ruled by emotions. And what's more alarming is that this trend isn't only applicable in a microcosm of a fictional reality - it happens irl all the time.
We're all Odiums puppets, people. Wake up.
@Anne Day the lack of nuance is deliberate. I wasn't exactly planning to write an essay - just an off the cuff jokey sort of ramble on the subject. As for your point, I've spent lots of time watching court video logs and other media centered around criminal justice (not with particular purpose - just from morbid curiosity) and from my observations people who identified with the victim were a lot more prone to exhibit bloodlust than any sort of a wish for isolation of the perpetrator such as the one you describe. Admittedly, I haven't seen everything and I haven't been on the victim side myself thankfully. Who knows, my rationalizations of today might go out the window the moment I myself get slighted in some sufficiently gruesome way.
On isolation, I don't have a problem with it per se, although it can be a bit of a slippery term. First off it doesn't necessarily have much of an overlap with retribution. Secondly it's very broad, since through sufficiently obsequious mental gymnastics even death penalty can sort of be called isolation - you can no longer come in contact with someone who's dead, after all. And I do have problems with that (but to be fair mostly on logical grounds since emotionally I sometimes want to kill just about anyone I interact with, who's giving me trouble, and so do, I believe, everyone else). Anyway, isolation in and of itself isn't the problem - it's how exactly it's carried out.
Let me give you an example from the fringes where the crime doesn't exactly warrants measures as drastic as deleting someone outright. I don't know about USA but in my country all penitentiaries today have abhorrent recidivism level. That's because the act of isolation is not treated as an attempt to mend - but as an attempt to punish (in context of practice of incarceration that is the difference between it being retributive as opposed to restorative). People who made at times very understandable missteps (especially if you take into consideration the socioeconomic circumstances of their existence) get marginalized there, they get treated like shit, and once they come out this treatment sometimes only intensifies. They effectively can no longer be productive on to themselves or useful to society. And by gaining retribution through making them suffer people essentially make the problem worse. A lot of the times due to that sort of treatment, upon release the chances of them hurting someone only increase. In fact exponentially so with each consecutive incarceration.
But I digress. I was going to write some more on accountability but it grew way out of proportion and this comment as it is took wait too much out of me already :D
After listening to this, I really want someone to spike Moash with gold Allomancy, just because I really want to know how he would react to burning gold and seeing who he COULD have been.
A Moash redemption arc wouldn't only be amazing, but it kind of feels like the direction he is going already. He's blind now, how can he continue to be a warrior for Odium? Now, I would totally be on board with Moash getting spiked and becoming an Allomancer/Surgebinder super villain, but idk if that's gonna happen.
Moash in book 5 getting a Steel spike to let him "see" would be really neat.
Can confirm, you have not removed all of the Pokemon WTCC Jingles.
you talk about the anger of the oppressed in regards to Moash, and what is Kelsiers anger, if it's not the anger of the oppressed. With kelsier Is it justified rage? Where as kelsier wants change, Moash wants to destroy.
This was just making me think of Tealc in Stargate. It's usually in the background but occasionally brought to the forefront, like in one episode (I don't really remember specifics) he willingly goes on trial for his actions and the rest of the team don't want him to.
Also Moash on a dustbringer arc would be cool
I'm intrigued by Shannon's argument that someone should be mad about the mistreatment of darkeyes/non-alethi - especially when as with real-world racism, we know it was purely based on shitty societal structures. I think the radiants do have a responsibility toward equality in the aftermath of Stormlight and that many of the worst (Sadeas, Amaram) have already had their just desserts, but yeah something to keep an eye on
okay but the bad guy hanging round with the good guys, Emet-Selch!!
I think Moash absolutely CAN be redeemed. An easy way to tell with 90% certainty will be if there is a POV for him in Stormlight 5.
Its the Jaimie Lannister effect. You get into the bad guys POV and all of a sudden they are sympathetic. Any decent author can pull that off and I think Brandon would be the kinda guy to flex his writerly muscles to say "remember that dude you´ve HATED for 2 books? now I´ll make you love him"
SHOULD he be redeemed tho? I don´t thik so. He is the representation of Kaladin´s 4th Ideal.
He is THE person Kaladin can´t help as a therapist. So unless Moash´s story separetes completely from Kaladin and he goes on a soul searching journey and he manages to save himself. There is no redemption I think