Thankfully, on the Brandon episode, Brandon said Khriss would call the Fused Surgebinders. We recorded this episode prior to that, but good to get confirmation on that. It's not just Rosharans being bad at names this time. -Eric
@@phillipwest5465 Yep. RoW has several people comparing Cognitive Shadows to spren. Vasher thinks Cognitive Shadows *are* spren, and the actual person's soul is gone.
If the honorblades are the physical manifestation of Honor's binding of the surge, what the heck is the implication of nightblood taking a chunk out of one
Counter theory: think about out of all the "Parshandi" who can use "Surges", it's only the fused, not the normal Parshman even with their connection to Roshar restored, not the regal forms, who have bonded voidsprens, the have forms of power which are different from the 10/9 surges, it's ONLY the fused. I think Odium can not provide access to the 10/9 surges. I think the "Parshandi" had access to surges before the humans came to Roshar, but the spren were different and so how the fused had access to the surges was different, then came the humans, and slowly when their connection to Roshar solidified the spren started to change (becoming more human like), Honor gave humans the Honor blades giving them access to two surges, and we know from the books that the Radiant spren emulated the honor blades and gave similar powers to the Heralds. I think the fused the are the generation of "Parshandi" that still had access to honor's/cultivation's surges who first fought the Humans when honor changed sides and the "Pashandi" started following Odium, in exchange Odium made them cognitive shadows giving the ability to come back after death I think Odiums powers are different, I think they have to do more with how regals function and the Unmade function (I think he can unmake other forms of investiture, or beings with investiture i.e. how his light can unmake spren, I even think moash is going through the process of being unmade) , how the fused can come back by using other people's bodies and to see future possibilities. etc etc
@@Funilesh holy crap that’s why there haven’t been new fused since the first. And I was surprised when that fuse was a surge binder before. I love this theory man
Purely going off of when odium said "once the others realize the power of surge binding" I think surge binding is any form of magic that requires 2 or more forms of shardic investiture. It would explain why Odium feared Sazed, why he was taking out dual shards and even potentially why era 3 is about Roshar vs Scadrial. It also explains why radiants are so OP compared to other forms of magic and it gives us a clue as to the older more ancient forms of magic on Roshar just being magic from a single shard.
@@joaofarias9986 feruchemy isn't really of two shards. To my understanding (I could be misremembering) allomamcy is of preservation, hemelurgy is of ruin, and feruchemy came about on its own, right?
All planets have gravitation. Does this mean anyone invested in the Cosmere could use it as long as the shard allowed unrestricted access to it. I think each shard had their own ideas about how to safely bind and restrict access to the surges based on the vessel and the intent of the shard. Honor made all of them available with minimal restrictions and expected users to follow a "honor system" and not misuse them. Speculation: I assume that cultivation suggested that they restrict them further by allowing spren to choose people and singers with the right qualities and allowing to cultivate their abilities. Honor took this idea and worked with Ishar to codify the oaths as a matter of binding radiant progression to "ideals" they would need to honor
What if before Honor bound the surges, people who accessed them were to modern surgebinders what mistborns are to mistings. Like Ishar had all ten surges, and that was way too dangerous, so Honor restricted it.
Which would be crazy to think about since, even now, people don’t know who would win between a True Mistborn and a Full Knight Radiant. If the latter were to be equivalent to a Surgebinding Misting?
When the Stormfather says the fused were dangerous before they had surges I took that to mean they were dangerous individuals. Like Raboniel even with no powers would be extremely formidable
Re: The Masked Ones not being able to make outside illusions, part of the disguise the Fused did to hide their occupation of Urithiru is to make illusions of Windrunners patrolling the sky. Whether or not those are actual Windrunners of disguised Heavenly Ones, those are still outside illusions.
@@geosustento8894 If that's true (can't go check the book right now), that's a huge misstep by the fused. Part of the cover story involved an explanation for the radiant powers not working, which Dalinar definitely confirmed pretty early on. Having illusory Windrunners where their powers weren't supposed to be working would be a big tip off that something wasn't right.
My thoughts on what “binding the surges” means, I think that honor bound surgebinding to the spren, so that only the worthy could utilize the powers of the surges, avoiding the whole nukes thing.
Me during Show and Tell: I adore these goofballs 😂😍 This is my favorite podcast! PedantiCast and the super niche jokes make me inappropriately laugh out loud in public on my commute, and I regret nothing! Thank you for doing this, you always make my day.
Maybe this is linked to the god metals, similar to allomancy? The true key to surge pairs are specific alloys of Honour and Cultivation's god metals. Only one key for each pair was made, the honourblades. However spern are a mix of honour and cultivation investiture, and so are able to mimic the signature of the key, thus accidentally mimicking the effect of the honourblades.
I had a thought about allomancy from this podcast. Iirc Vin took weeks/months working on the exact alloy of duralumin she could burn and it gave her massive headaches whenever it was wrong. Additionally any non "pure" metal does the same. Given rhythm of war's pure tones and the fact we know the well of ascension was a pure tone as well, I wonder if each metal on scadriel has its own tone both due to the purity and the fact that metals and elements have their own natural resonant frequencies. Maybe each metal and its alloy have opposing tone pulses?
I need a multiple volume gloriously overdetailed chonky encyclopaedia of the Cosmere in my life, that is so stuffed to the gills with art it can moonlight as an art book! Then we can know the answers definitively. Great video btw. I love these deep dive ones :)
Commenting early to contribute (hopefully) positively to the algorithm! Will edit soon. *Edit* Okay finally had time! So. Question re. Human Voidbringers. Don't we have confirmation that they were supported by Odium here? Could they maybe have had access to some form of surgebinding? And then the Dawnsingers had access to an even deeper, older form of Rosharan surgebinding via their singing? Could be way off but I always imagined even the early human-singer conflict was based in magic.
And following up: Eric, your ability to guide even the most enjoyably tangential conversations (some of which you start) back to the topic with such grace is the mark of a real damn good host/educator so right on (same shoutout goes to all of you and your ability to nerd out, but ground yourself back in the topic).
It really is worth the money for me, but then again, I have the grandfathered price from Google Play All Access. I use background play and downloaded videos all the time. -Eric
I, for one, love argent’s show and tell. In fact, I love it so much I think you guys should do a dedicated show and tell video(not a full shardcast obviously)
With the fused, there could be two Spirit Webs: that of the Fused (the Spren) and that of the singer that accepted them. Now, they do say that the old personality/singer is destroyed in this process, but what if that's a lie that the Fused tell? what if the Fused simply repress the old listener, who is destroyed truly when the body is killed? that would maintain some of the equivalency between Fused and Radiant "bonds"
I have watched almost all of your podcasts since the release of Oathbringer in the past couple of months. ALL OF THEM with YT premium (so basically I have paid your bills)
I think it's possible that Kaladin's thing with the windspren breaking the storm was him commanding (Commanding?) the Windspren to use their limited version of Adhesion to do things he couldn't fully think about on his own, and there will be similar things for other cousinspren
Kaladin does a lot of Bondsmith-y things, like leading and forming Connections with people from all over the world (like Sigzil and Rock), but on a smaller scale than Dalinar. Brandon is nothing if not consistent--Adhesion does that, even if its wielders don't realize they're doing it. Edited to add: and it is Kaladin, not Dalinar, who Connects to Rlain, a member of a completely different species. (Dalinar actually forges a connection to Venli, of course.)
It could also be a very, _very_ early manifestation of Shardplate. In Oathbringer Kaladin was already close to the Fourth Ideal, and as we see when he almost says it in Shadesmar there was already a group of Windspren who had decided they'd be his armor and followed him around. After swearing the Fourth Ideal Kaladin can command his armor to protect other people around him, so it wouldn't be all that shocking that he could order "his" windspren to cut a hole in the storm. It's actually super similar to the way he saves Lirin after swearing the ideal, only on a much weaker scale (probably because he hasn't sworn it yet)
I feel like the Key to this is in the name Surges and Surge binding The Surges are "natural" forces that act upon the Cosmere like how Gravity, Electromagnetism and Strong and Weak atomic forces affect our universe In the case of the Cosmere those are altered by Investiture So we have many more Surgebinding refers to the "binding" of those forces so that an individual can manipulate them in different ways
I feel like Surgebinding is older than Honor/Cultivation. Something that was done by Dawnsingers during the age of Adonalsium. Honor simply "bound" them, limiting their powers and connecting them to Oaths.
I’m really interested in the potential of unbounded surges. Specifically I am curious if surges other than adhesion could have metaphysical or spiritual effects like adhesion does. It’s not like adhesion is inherently a surge of metaphysical bonds. It’s described as control over vacuums and pressure which we can see in a windrunner’s full lashing. For some reason though, bondsmiths are able to use the surge to control abstract perceptions of what bonds are. This could be because a bondsmith’s spren is simply far stronger than a normal honorspren and so has more capacity, windrunners just haven’t really tried to use adhesion in the same way as a bondsmith, or bondsmiths are special and have been given mod privileges so they can do their stuff. Any combination still leaves the possibility that with the restrictions gone, any surgebinder of sufficient strength or with enough stormlight could theoretically not just take the literal physical effects of their surges to terrifying extremes, but use the abstract perceptions of their surge’s concepts to perform their own unique metaphysical/spiritual feats. For example, could a Windrunner use the idea of gravitation being simply “things drawing towards each other” to force two people to meet and develop a relationship, ie make two people “gravitate towards each other.” If this sort of thing is potentially possible, and I don’t see why it should be impossible if bondsmiths show surges can effect more than just the physical, I can truly see what is so dangerous about unbound surges. I can see a Windrunner combining adhesion and gravitation to literally forge a destiny for someone or something, using gravitation to draw them/it towards a certain fate and using adhesion to hold it all together and set it in stone. If I’m not totally off base, I wonder what this means for roshar or even the cosmere going forward if the restrictions are not replaced. Especially since the time skip before the second half of the series should give the radiants time to experiment with and push to the edges of what exactly they are capable of now.
Okay, I usually would not bring this up, but since you've said it *so many times* and I have been thinking about how I could manage to support this: I do have youtube premium! 10 episodes done, many more to listen to. Win-win?
Hah, accurate. I always worry people will just click off the video during it, so I am trying to keep it snappy. But most comments seem to enjoy it, so that's good!
I think in the Original Desolation with the first (human) voidbringers you are correct that humans didn't have surgebinding or other powers, but maybe Odium already had some of the more mindless Unmade already in play, like the Thrill or the Heart of the Revel, which could be devastating against a nonmagical society if deployed with purpose with an invading army.
In era before surgebinders or forms of power, a human army with Odium at its head descends upon the unsuspecting dawnsingers. Battle-crazed humans fight alongside horrific midnight essence, feeding the Thrill with every kill, unable to even conceive of retreat or withdrawal. Yelig-Nar's host dominates the battlefield, wielding Odium's 9 surges as it consumes its unlucky human host. Perhaps his is a position of honor and martyrdom, perhaps a punishment--a final atonement for an otherwise unforgivable offense. The dawnsingers have warforms, yes, but they break morale like mortal armies in our world do. When the few survivors make it to the next settlement, the local elders are already in thrall to the Heart of the Revel, unable and unwilling to organize a resistance against Odium. Truly, these Voidbringers would be monsters indeed.
On the alomancy problem I always thought that the atium Mistings were really just electrum mistings my theory being that it made more sense for mistings to be able to burn god metal if it was alloyed with their metal then for there to be mistings for the 272 possible types of mistings and since scadrian “atium” is really an alloy of electrum and atium that made sense to me and then preservation made them sick the longest to indicate that they were important instead of all this overly complicated metal table swapping
Cultivation is present in Spren. The idea of ideas coming alive, learning and growing is kinda right there. I dont think it would have slipped Cultivation's notice that they would grow to become the dominant form of Nahal bond in this system. The expression is through Honor, the bound surges if you will, but the foundation is through Cultivation. Perhaps that is why oaths and Honor seem more important, as it is 'on the surface'. Maybe Honor agreed to grow, and Cultivation agreed to the rules of binding. I dunno. Just an idea wandering through.
The reason Lift could "use" regrowth during the siege of Urithiru is because of how her body manifests lifelight instead of stormlight. Then when she "heals" the radiant she isn't really healing them instead she is infusing then with lifelight to power/heal themselves. That why we never see her heal any non-radiant during the siege of Urithiru and why she has to keep feeding the radiants lifelight so they can continue to function. The radiant eventually runs out of the lifelight and needs more so that they can continually heel the cognitive wound the supression voidrial is inflicting. Most likely using the surge of regrowth is a form of infusion and thus lift is mistaken that she can still use it.
@R-Fire flame She does heal the bird. What I'm saying is that she doesn't heal the radiants the same way as she heals the bird. How she heals the bird, like they say in the episode, is that she uses the surge of regrowth fueled by lifelight the surge purely of cultivation. The reason the surge still works is similar to how kaladin surge of adhesion still works a knight of honor bonded to child honor using honors light to preform honors surge. While lift is a daughter of cultivation bonded to child of cultivation using cultivation's light to preform cultivation's surge. The reason these two surges still work is that voidrials and void light in general is made to counteract the diatomic nature of the magic system. It's made to counter the melded magic of both cultivation and honor. that is why there is 9 orders of the fused. And why their surges are distinctly different form the radiants. When they preform a surge they are preforming a combined version of two surges. But hey, that's just a theory... a book theory. Thanks for reading.
I feel like Unbound surge manipulation can do anything that any magic system in the Cosmere can do with enough creativity and knowledge. Honor just decided to install a balance patch.
I don't know about gravitation existing "before Honor". Honor existed (in some way) in Adonalsium, so maybe it's true to say that Honor (again, in some way) created the surges. The part of Adonalsium that created the surges came to be the Shard of Honor after the shattering. At least that's how I imagined it
No rails? No problem! I think Evgeni is onto something with the whole "surgebinding is investiture+bond" but is wrong about what the bond actually is on Odium's side. I think the bond is between the parsh body and the fused spirit. Where a radiant surgebinder is person + spren an Odious surgebinder is parsh + fused, except the cognitive entity being bonded is the one that ends up in control
You guys really needed to go through the timeline of the use of surges and who granted which surges to whom. I feel like no conclusions were reached because there was no timeline
It may be, that when the humans left ashen, they did a parshendi thing. By that I mean the parshendi got rid of their forms to not be controlled my odium any more. Maybe that move was inspired by what the Humans did to flee ashen. So the parshendi actually did a human thing. And then the human void bringers turned up, to f stuff up again.
I like the theory that the Fused manifest their using of the surge in an inward fashion because them and their spren are one and the same whereas Knight Radiant manifest them in an ouward fashion because them and their spren are two separate entites bound together...Most of all I like the parallel with allomancy and the pulling and pushing concept. In allomancy the "pure metal" like iron, copper or zinc are the one that pull where as those that do the pushing are the alloys like, steel, brass or bronze are the alloys aka the BINDING of the metals (or a metal and another matter in the case of steel). Also if you compare Allomancy with surgebinding I always found that the power to "enflame emotions" is very "Odiumy". Also, do you think that a Mistborn or a Seeker burning bronze could hear the rhythms and tones of Roshar ? Edit : on another note I went on the Coppermind page about allomancy and there is something that bugs me : the Table of Allomantic Metals is not coherent with the quote underneath it. The quote contradicts itself for that matter. The quote says : "There are two metals for every power. One Pushes, one Pulls--the second is usually an alloy of the first. For emotions--the external mental powers--you Pull with zinc and Push with brass. You just used pewter to Push your body. That's one of the internal physical powers." So the quote states that "the second" (a.k.a "the "one [that] Pulls" is usually an alloy of the first (a.k.a the "one [that] Pushes") but in the table the alloys are all under the "Pushing" section. So grammatically the correct phrasing should be "the first is usually an alloy of the second" and not the other way around.
At the part with Dalinar being honor. Brandon played the unite them as thinking he was uniting the high princes, then uniting the Radiants, then uniting the plains. What if there is a 4th unite them. and it is uniting all the pieces of honors power. Becoming honor.
Natural law has a spiritual and cognitive aspect, right? Could "The Surges" be like a catch-all for natural law, and binding the surges was codifiying them into sub-classofications? Like Biology is a bounded region of natural science, as is physics, chemistry, etc. The concepts themselves are bound to different understandings, making the cultural and invested origins identical?
Thinking on the terminology of Honor being "Shattered" do you think then, perhaps an unchained Bondsmith could reform the splinters and resurrect the Shard?
Why would they see the need to distinguish between the different types of birds when they have so few? It may seem dumb to us but that’s because we come from a place with many birds. Don’t forget about what Shallan has said about stupidity being a function of the environment.
What if wind runners gain access to spiritual adhesion, maybe the reason they don’t have spiritual adhesion wnd maybe gravitation as well. Could this allow like time travel because nobody has spiritual gravitation which maybe means it’s to op, and what if spiritual gravitation is time or at least part of time. Like a surge binder with spiritual progression and gravitation maybe could just manipulate time. There may be a reason why spiritual forms of the main physical surges do not exist as far as we have seen this may have been part of the restrictions.
Look at evgani.. whenever it’s obvious the others are more knowledgeable about a specific item he gets all emotional and looks like he’s about to have a breakdown. Share your knowledge and grow together. You don’t have to know everything about everything. You can learn something from everyone. About 6000 pages so far in the series. Can’t be 100% about everything brotha!! Keep up the good work boys
So, it seems Honor/Adonalsium influenced people to think about surges in a certain way. Gravitation is specifically what his followers were taught. I think
At 14:00, I'm wondering if David is confusing Oathbringer and Rhythm of War. In RoW Ch 67, there is an almost exact reference to what he is talking about where Venli pulls off a piece of rock and molds it with her fingers. It's after the stones show her the Dawnsingers working with the stone.
Just an idea hearing about the shards and numbers associated with them, could there be like a 'sacred' number associated with each shard separate to all other shenanigans. Honour is the 10th shard, 10 planets, 10 surges ect Odium is the 9th shard, 9 surges, 9 unmade ectopic Cultivation is the 3rd shard, 3 moons, 3 spren... Preservation is the 16th shard, 16 metals and mistings as part of his plan... I certainly don't think there's a lot of evidence for this but it's there, and now we know sound, light, colour, mist, metal and Intent are part of a shard is it impossible that numbers are important to each shard and this is then getting confused and mixed into cultures in the Cosemer where shards invest? Does anyone else get this vibe to or is it just me?
The Spren only come through because odioum is the god of emotion and the Spren are drawn to powerful emotions so I think odium is tied to the Sprien ability to interact with the physical world. Humans brought odeum and the spren
What was going on with Kaladin at the end of Rhythm of War when he was blacking out??? Is this an example of "pre-bound" surges? Is binding, in essence, putting a limiter on it by requiring a spren to keep them in line? Meaning that they now have to follow oaths to achieve their powers, thereby limiting their powers?
Aren't there people who survived the Mist's snapoing who didn't end up as Allomancers? What if those WERE actually Allomancers for then-unknown metals?
When discussing what Ashyn’s old magic system looked like, is it not also worth talking about Ashyn’s current magic system? I.e. the disease based manipulation of the surges. Admittedly that’s partly an assumption, but we do know that the surviving Ashynites live on giant rocks levitated by sick people, which sounds a lot like a different way of accessing gravitation.
Although I really love Stormlight and think surge binding is cool. I still prefer awakening and allomancy as magic systems just because we know a lot more about them. We don’t even know what all the 10 surges do 😂
At 18min you discussed fused ability to hold voidlight indefinitely. Perhaps the fact that fused are cognitive shadows influences the ability to hold on, because if regals could hold voidlight indefinitely then why would it be normal for them to occasionally request more voidlight?
Thankfully, on the Brandon episode, Brandon said Khriss would call the Fused Surgebinders. We recorded this episode prior to that, but good to get confirmation on that. It's not just Rosharans being bad at names this time. -Eric
Is iron pherocamy and alamancy gravitation surgebinding?
I see the Fused at not being their own spren. They are THE spren but their bond to the host is parasitic and not symbiotic like with the Radiants.
@@phillipwest5465 Yep. RoW has several people comparing Cognitive Shadows to spren. Vasher thinks Cognitive Shadows *are* spren, and the actual person's soul is gone.
If the honorblades are the physical manifestation of Honor's binding of the surge, what the heck is the implication of nightblood taking a chunk out of one
Theory: Radiants get 2 surges, because they are connected to Honor and Cultivation. Fused get one, because they are just connected to Odium.
Counter theory: think about out of all the "Parshandi" who can use "Surges", it's only the fused, not the normal Parshman even with their connection to Roshar restored, not the regal forms, who have bonded voidsprens, the have forms of power which are different from the 10/9 surges, it's ONLY the fused.
I think Odium can not provide access to the 10/9 surges. I think the "Parshandi" had access to surges before the humans came to Roshar, but the spren were different and so how the fused had access to the surges was different, then came the humans, and slowly when their connection to Roshar solidified the spren started to change (becoming more human like), Honor gave humans the Honor blades giving them access to two surges, and we know from the books that the Radiant spren emulated the honor blades and gave similar powers to the Heralds.
I think the fused the are the generation of "Parshandi" that still had access to honor's/cultivation's surges who first fought the Humans when honor changed sides and the "Pashandi" started following Odium, in exchange Odium made them cognitive shadows giving the ability to come back after death
I think Odiums powers are different, I think they have to do more with how regals function and the Unmade function (I think he can unmake other forms of investiture, or beings with investiture i.e. how his light can unmake spren, I even think moash is going through the process of being unmade) , how the fused can come back by using other people's bodies and to see future possibilities. etc etc
@@deadmatt666 because the Connection of all the Singers and Ba Ado Mishram shananigans!
@@Funilesh holy crap that’s why there haven’t been new fused since the first. And I was surprised when that fuse was a surge binder before. I love this theory man
Watching this episode was like learning for a hard exam. I watched 2.5 hours and feel like i hadn't learn a single thing. 10/10 would do it again
I'm an hour in and they lost me about half an hour ago and I'm loving it
Thanks for these podcasts! I love how this feels like friends just chatting about what they love.
"One surge to bind them all - Adhesion" That is the conclusion I got from this.
Seriously Adhesion is the most meta-surge in that it can influence other surges.
lol nice
Purely going off of when odium said "once the others realize the power of surge binding" I think surge binding is any form of magic that requires 2 or more forms of shardic investiture. It would explain why Odium feared Sazed, why he was taking out dual shards and even potentially why era 3 is about Roshar vs Scadrial. It also explains why radiants are so OP compared to other forms of magic and it gives us a clue as to the older more ancient forms of magic on Roshar just being magic from a single shard.
If you're right, Scadrial already did. Twinborn
@@joaofarias9986 feruchemy isn't really of two shards. To my understanding (I could be misremembering) allomamcy is of preservation, hemelurgy is of ruin, and feruchemy came about on its own, right?
@@starman2995 Feruchemy is from both. Also, twinborn are using the power of two shards to make something new
that would mean that feruchemy is surgebinding. I think your definition is still too general
though i Think being twinborn is the same this makes a lot of sense !
Rating this episode on the Pedanticast Scale: 9/10
All planets have gravitation. Does this mean anyone invested in the Cosmere could use it as long as the shard allowed unrestricted access to it.
I think each shard had their own ideas about how to safely bind and restrict access to the surges based on the vessel and the intent of the shard.
Honor made all of them available with minimal restrictions and expected users to follow a "honor system" and not misuse them.
Speculation:
I assume that cultivation suggested that they restrict them further by allowing spren to choose people and singers with the right qualities and allowing to cultivate their abilities.
Honor took this idea and worked with Ishar to codify the oaths as a matter of binding radiant progression to "ideals" they would need to honor
What if before Honor bound the surges, people who accessed them were to modern surgebinders what mistborns are to mistings.
Like Ishar had all ten surges, and that was way too dangerous, so Honor restricted it.
Which would be crazy to think about since, even now, people don’t know who would win between a True Mistborn and a Full Knight Radiant. If the latter were to be equivalent to a Surgebinding Misting?
Shardcast: The podcast that keeps my sane on my Saturdays when I’m driving for a few hours at work.
When the Stormfather says the fused were dangerous before they had surges I took that to mean they were dangerous individuals. Like Raboniel even with no powers would be extremely formidable
So honor binding the surges might be a series of balancing patches to the power system?
brandon "never trust anything a herald says ever"
kalak "free mishram" ... I am having doubts about this one guys. what will shallan find?
I know you’re putting episodes out every week again due to RoW but thank you! It’s made my UK lockdown a lot better. Thank you all!
Re: The Masked Ones not being able to make outside illusions, part of the disguise the Fused did to hide their occupation of Urithiru is to make illusions of Windrunners patrolling the sky. Whether or not those are actual Windrunners of disguised Heavenly Ones, those are still outside illusions.
I thought it was just of Windrunners on the tower, since they couldn’t hide the tower defenses were preventing Windrunners from flying.
@@dbmeboy that's what I was referring to. :)
@@geosustento8894 Right, but the fake Windrunners weren’t flying.
@@dbmeboy they were. The patrols Dalinar sent reported that they're flying over the tower.
@@geosustento8894 If that's true (can't go check the book right now), that's a huge misstep by the fused. Part of the cover story involved an explanation for the radiant powers not working, which Dalinar definitely confirmed pretty early on. Having illusory Windrunners where their powers weren't supposed to be working would be a big tip off that something wasn't right.
My thoughts on what “binding the surges” means, I think that honor bound surgebinding to the spren, so that only the worthy could utilize the powers of the surges, avoiding the whole nukes thing.
Me during Show and Tell: I adore these goofballs 😂😍
This is my favorite podcast! PedantiCast and the super niche jokes make me inappropriately laugh out loud in public on my commute, and I regret nothing! Thank you for doing this, you always make my day.
Maybe this is linked to the god metals, similar to allomancy? The true key to surge pairs are specific alloys of Honour and Cultivation's god metals. Only one key for each pair was made, the honourblades. However spern are a mix of honour and cultivation investiture, and so are able to mimic the signature of the key, thus accidentally mimicking the effect of the honourblades.
I had a thought about allomancy from this podcast.
Iirc Vin took weeks/months working on the exact alloy of duralumin she could burn and it gave her massive headaches whenever it was wrong. Additionally any non "pure" metal does the same.
Given rhythm of war's pure tones and the fact we know the well of ascension was a pure tone as well, I wonder if each metal on scadriel has its own tone both due to the purity and the fact that metals and elements have their own natural resonant frequencies. Maybe each metal and its alloy have opposing tone pulses?
I need a multiple volume gloriously overdetailed chonky encyclopaedia of the Cosmere in my life, that is so stuffed to the gills with art it can moonlight as an art book!
Then we can know the answers definitively.
Great video btw. I love these deep dive ones :)
gotta love those silly puns and pop culture references.
Nine surges were living in harmony
Commenting early to contribute (hopefully) positively to the algorithm! Will edit soon.
*Edit* Okay finally had time! So. Question re. Human Voidbringers. Don't we have confirmation that they were supported by Odium here? Could they maybe have had access to some form of surgebinding? And then the Dawnsingers had access to an even deeper, older form of Rosharan surgebinding via their singing? Could be way off but I always imagined even the early human-singer conflict was based in magic.
And following up: Eric, your ability to guide even the most enjoyably tangential conversations (some of which you start) back to the topic with such grace is the mark of a real damn good host/educator so right on (same shoutout goes to all of you and your ability to nerd out, but ground yourself back in the topic).
I've been watching the whole cast on CZcams Premium = D
Same. I hate ads so bad that it’s worth it.
It really is worth the money for me, but then again, I have the grandfathered price from Google Play All Access. I use background play and downloaded videos all the time. -Eric
normally i'm an audio listener but i had to come and watch show-and-tell
I, for one, love argent’s show and tell. In fact, I love it so much I think you guys should do a dedicated show and tell video(not a full shardcast obviously)
With the fused, there could be two Spirit Webs: that of the Fused (the Spren) and that of the singer that accepted them. Now, they do say that the old personality/singer is destroyed in this process, but what if that's a lie that the Fused tell? what if the Fused simply repress the old listener, who is destroyed truly when the body is killed? that would maintain some of the equivalency between Fused and Radiant "bonds"
I think the fused act like a more corrupting spren. They have the spren part, but fully take over the host
Ahhh you guys did my WTCC!!! High-five to Argent :)
I have watched almost all of your podcasts since the release of Oathbringer in the past couple of months. ALL OF THEM with YT premium (so basically I have paid your bills)
I personally am very excited for you guys to reread era 2, there's a lot going on in those books mechanically speaking
The show and tell is always the best part of the videos!😂 Please keep it
Glad to see more show and tell!
This episode isn't nearly as off the rails as I expected.
I think it's possible that Kaladin's thing with the windspren breaking the storm was him commanding (Commanding?) the Windspren to use their limited version of Adhesion to do things he couldn't fully think about on his own, and there will be similar things for other cousinspren
Kaladin does a lot of Bondsmith-y things, like leading and forming Connections with people from all over the world (like Sigzil and Rock), but on a smaller scale than Dalinar. Brandon is nothing if not consistent--Adhesion does that, even if its wielders don't realize they're doing it.
Edited to add: and it is Kaladin, not Dalinar, who Connects to Rlain, a member of a completely different species. (Dalinar actually forges a connection to Venli, of course.)
It could also be a very, _very_ early manifestation of Shardplate. In Oathbringer Kaladin was already close to the Fourth Ideal, and as we see when he almost says it in Shadesmar there was already a group of Windspren who had decided they'd be his armor and followed him around.
After swearing the Fourth Ideal Kaladin can command his armor to protect other people around him, so it wouldn't be all that shocking that he could order "his" windspren to cut a hole in the storm. It's actually super similar to the way he saves Lirin after swearing the ideal, only on a much weaker scale (probably because he hasn't sworn it yet)
Referring to outward Fused surgebinding: I believe Raboniel soulcasts during the invasion, but only one or two times.
I feel like the Key to this is in the name
Surges and Surge binding
The Surges are "natural" forces that act upon the Cosmere like how Gravity, Electromagnetism and Strong and Weak atomic forces affect our universe
In the case of the Cosmere those are altered by Investiture So we have many more
Surgebinding refers to the "binding" of those forces so that an individual can manipulate them in different ways
Always fun to watch/listen to you all talk cosmere
I clicked away, but liked the show and tell.
This was a wild one, hoo boy! Very fun and interesting.
LONG LIVE SHOW N TELL
I feel like Surgebinding is older than Honor/Cultivation. Something that was done by Dawnsingers during the age of Adonalsium. Honor simply "bound" them, limiting their powers and connecting them to Oaths.
Dudes, thank you so much. This is just what i needed today
You probably know better than me but I always saw it as windrunners and skybreakers can lash themself upwatd but heavenly ones can literally fly
I think this would be very entertaining to listen to when high because it has the same manic energy as the episode
I’m really interested in the potential of unbounded surges. Specifically I am curious if surges other than adhesion could have metaphysical or spiritual effects like adhesion does. It’s not like adhesion is inherently a surge of metaphysical bonds. It’s described as control over vacuums and pressure which we can see in a windrunner’s full lashing. For some reason though, bondsmiths are able to use the surge to control abstract perceptions of what bonds are. This could be because a bondsmith’s spren is simply far stronger than a normal honorspren and so has more capacity, windrunners just haven’t really tried to use adhesion in the same way as a bondsmith, or bondsmiths are special and have been given mod privileges so they can do their stuff. Any combination still leaves the possibility that with the restrictions gone, any surgebinder of sufficient strength or with enough stormlight could theoretically not just take the literal physical effects of their surges to terrifying extremes, but use the abstract perceptions of their surge’s concepts to perform their own unique metaphysical/spiritual feats. For example, could a Windrunner use the idea of gravitation being simply “things drawing towards each other” to force two people to meet and develop a relationship, ie make two people “gravitate towards each other.” If this sort of thing is potentially possible, and I don’t see why it should be impossible if bondsmiths show surges can effect more than just the physical, I can truly see what is so dangerous about unbound surges. I can see a Windrunner combining adhesion and gravitation to literally forge a destiny for someone or something, using gravitation to draw them/it towards a certain fate and using adhesion to hold it all together and set it in stone. If I’m not totally off base, I wonder what this means for roshar or even the cosmere going forward if the restrictions are not replaced. Especially since the time skip before the second half of the series should give the radiants time to experiment with and push to the edges of what exactly they are capable of now.
All for the show and tell!
Okay, I usually would not bring this up, but since you've said it *so many times* and I have been thinking about how I could manage to support this: I do have youtube premium! 10 episodes done, many more to listen to. Win-win?
I do like the show and tell.
After much examination I have discovered the reason Eric is harboring rage is show and tell
Hah, accurate. I always worry people will just click off the video during it, so I am trying to keep it snappy. But most comments seem to enjoy it, so that's good!
Big fans from israel here! Keep it up! love the podcast!! you guys geek almost as hard as i do about cosmere lmao
קטע
I think in the Original Desolation with the first (human) voidbringers you are correct that humans didn't have surgebinding or other powers, but maybe Odium already had some of the more mindless Unmade already in play, like the Thrill or the Heart of the Revel, which could be devastating against a nonmagical society if deployed with purpose with an invading army.
In era before surgebinders or forms of power, a human army with Odium at its head descends upon the unsuspecting dawnsingers. Battle-crazed humans fight alongside horrific midnight essence, feeding the Thrill with every kill, unable to even conceive of retreat or withdrawal. Yelig-Nar's host dominates the battlefield, wielding Odium's 9 surges as it consumes its unlucky human host. Perhaps his is a position of honor and martyrdom, perhaps a punishment--a final atonement for an otherwise unforgivable offense. The dawnsingers have warforms, yes, but they break morale like mortal armies in our world do. When the few survivors make it to the next settlement, the local elders are already in thrall to the Heart of the Revel, unable and unwilling to organize a resistance against Odium. Truly, these Voidbringers would be monsters indeed.
Appeasing the algorithm.
On the alomancy problem I always thought that the atium Mistings were really just electrum mistings my theory being that it made more sense for mistings to be able to burn god metal if it was alloyed with their metal then for there to be mistings for the 272 possible types of mistings and since scadrian “atium” is really an alloy of electrum and atium that made sense to me and then preservation made them sick the longest to indicate that they were important instead of all this overly complicated metal table swapping
The (capital T) Surge (capital S) of (lower o) Axial (capital A) Connection (Capital C).
I'm really hoping we get to see Dalinar summon Stormfather as a blade at some point. That would be so freaking cool.
"This video is brought to you by our sponsor, a small video platform you might not have heard of by the name of CZcams" :D
Cultivation is present in Spren. The idea of ideas coming alive, learning and growing is kinda right there. I dont think it would have slipped Cultivation's notice that they would grow to become the dominant form of Nahal bond in this system.
The expression is through Honor, the bound surges if you will, but the foundation is through Cultivation.
Perhaps that is why oaths and Honor seem more important, as it is 'on the surface'. Maybe Honor agreed to grow, and Cultivation agreed to the rules of binding.
I dunno. Just an idea wandering through.
The reason Lift could "use" regrowth during the siege of Urithiru is because of how her body manifests lifelight instead of stormlight. Then when she "heals" the radiant she isn't really healing them instead she is infusing then with lifelight to power/heal themselves. That why we never see her heal any non-radiant during the siege of Urithiru and why she has to keep feeding the radiants lifelight so they can continue to function. The radiant eventually runs out of the lifelight and needs more so that they can continually heel the cognitive wound the supression voidrial is inflicting. Most likely using the surge of regrowth is a form of infusion and thus lift is mistaken that she can still use it.
This makes sense. Lift is very much *not* Realmatically aware and probably hasn't done a lot of intellectual analysis of what she can do.
@R-Fire flame She does heal the bird. What I'm saying is that she doesn't heal the radiants the same way as she heals the bird. How she heals the bird, like they say in the episode, is that she uses the surge of regrowth fueled by lifelight the surge purely of cultivation. The reason the surge still works is similar to how kaladin surge of adhesion still works a knight of honor bonded to child honor using honors light to preform honors surge. While lift is a daughter of cultivation bonded to child of cultivation using cultivation's light to preform cultivation's surge. The reason these two surges still work is that voidrials and void light in general is made to counteract the diatomic nature of the magic system. It's made to counter the melded magic of both cultivation and honor. that is why there is 9 orders of the fused. And why their surges are distinctly different form the radiants. When they preform a surge they are preforming a combined version of two surges. But hey, that's just a theory... a book theory. Thanks for reading.
@R-Fire flame It's an aviar, of course, so it presumably does use Investiture.
I feel like Unbound surge manipulation can do anything that any magic system in the Cosmere can do with enough creativity and knowledge. Honor just decided to install a balance patch.
Show and Tell episode of the podcast when? /j but at the same time i would 100% watch that
I don't know about gravitation existing "before Honor". Honor existed (in some way) in Adonalsium, so maybe it's true to say that Honor (again, in some way) created the surges. The part of Adonalsium that created the surges came to be the Shard of Honor after the shattering. At least that's how I imagined it
No rails? No problem!
I think Evgeni is onto something with the whole "surgebinding is investiture+bond" but is wrong about what the bond actually is on Odium's side. I think the bond is between the parsh body and the fused spirit. Where a radiant surgebinder is person + spren an Odious surgebinder is parsh + fused, except the cognitive entity being bonded is the one that ends up in control
You guys really needed to go through the timeline of the use of surges and who granted which surges to whom. I feel like no conclusions were reached because there was no timeline
The problem is that that's ultra speculative, so I don't think we could reach anything here regardless. There is SO much we do not know. -Eric
It may be, that when the humans left ashen, they did a parshendi thing. By that I mean the parshendi got rid of their forms to not be controlled my odium any more. Maybe that move was inspired by what the Humans did to flee ashen. So the parshendi actually did a human thing. And then the human void bringers turned up, to f stuff up again.
Show and tell is back 🥰😂😂
I like the theory that the Fused manifest their using of the surge in an inward fashion because them and their spren are one and the same whereas Knight Radiant manifest them in an ouward fashion because them and their spren are two separate entites bound together...Most of all I like the parallel with allomancy and the pulling and pushing concept. In allomancy the "pure metal" like iron, copper or zinc are the one that pull where as those that do the pushing are the alloys like, steel, brass or bronze are the alloys aka the BINDING of the metals (or a metal and another matter in the case of steel).
Also if you compare Allomancy with surgebinding I always found that the power to "enflame emotions" is very "Odiumy". Also, do you think that a Mistborn or a Seeker burning bronze could hear the rhythms and tones of Roshar ?
Edit : on another note I went on the Coppermind page about allomancy and there is something that bugs me : the Table of Allomantic Metals is not coherent with the quote underneath it. The quote contradicts itself for that matter. The quote says : "There are two metals for every power. One Pushes, one Pulls--the second is usually an alloy of the first. For emotions--the external mental powers--you Pull with zinc and Push with brass. You just used pewter to Push your body. That's one of the internal physical powers." So the quote states that "the second" (a.k.a "the "one [that] Pulls" is usually an alloy of the first (a.k.a the "one [that] Pushes") but in the table the alloys are all under the "Pushing" section. So grammatically the correct phrasing should be "the first is usually an alloy of the second" and not the other way around.
Honor greater and bonded adhesion and then used adhesion to bind the rest of the surges
I actually counted the soul of the fused being the spren in the case of the fused where the singer that got taken over plays the role of the human
Yesss we love show and tell 😂
I thought the fused had corrupted spren in their gemheart. They fuse with the corrupted red spren and that is why they are called fused.
At the part with Dalinar being honor. Brandon played the unite them as thinking he was uniting the high princes, then uniting the Radiants, then uniting the plains. What if there is a 4th unite them. and it is uniting all the pieces of honors power. Becoming honor.
If you look closely at the end of RoW, you might see some evidence in favor of that idea (he said mysteriously).
Natural law has a spiritual and cognitive aspect, right? Could "The Surges" be like a catch-all for natural law, and binding the surges was codifiying them into sub-classofications? Like Biology is a bounded region of natural science, as is physics, chemistry, etc. The concepts themselves are bound to different understandings, making the cultural and invested origins identical?
Thinking on the terminology of Honor being "Shattered" do you think then, perhaps an unchained Bondsmith could reform the splinters and resurrect the Shard?
Funniest episode in a long time.
Leaving a comment so this gets recommended more~
Everyone else is going back. Ben is going forth
Don’t ever change Argent. :D
Why would they see the need to distinguish between the different types of birds when they have so few? It may seem dumb to us but that’s because we come from a place with many birds. Don’t forget about what Shallan has said about stupidity being a function of the environment.
What if wind runners gain access to spiritual adhesion, maybe the reason they don’t have spiritual adhesion wnd maybe gravitation as well.
Could this allow like time travel because nobody has spiritual gravitation which maybe means it’s to op, and what if spiritual gravitation is time or at least part of time.
Like a surge binder with spiritual progression and gravitation maybe could just manipulate time.
There may be a reason why spiritual forms of the main physical surges do not exist as far as we have seen this may have been part of the restrictions.
Look at evgani.. whenever it’s obvious the others are more knowledgeable about a specific item he gets all emotional and looks like he’s about to have a breakdown. Share your knowledge and grow together. You don’t have to know everything about everything. You can learn something from everyone. About 6000 pages so far in the series. Can’t be 100% about everything brotha!! Keep up the good work boys
So, it seems Honor/Adonalsium influenced people to think about surges in a certain way. Gravitation is specifically what his followers were taught. I think
At 14:00, I'm wondering if David is confusing Oathbringer and Rhythm of War. In RoW Ch 67, there is an almost exact reference to what he is talking about where Venli pulls off a piece of rock and molds it with her fingers. It's after the stones show her the Dawnsingers working with the stone.
They could make the voidbinding chart because they were *going* to make the voidbinding chart! Easy!
appease the algorithm gods
I legit want a whole set of dust jackets that look like that instead of the Michael Whelan covers.
I wish the podcasters would slow down and explain some basics along the way for those of us who have only read the books once and still very confused!
We try to, but it's always a hard balance to do :) I feel like we are getting better over time. Sorry the balance didn't work for you! -Eric
Just an idea hearing about the shards and numbers associated with them, could there be like a 'sacred' number associated with each shard separate to all other shenanigans.
Honour is the 10th shard, 10 planets, 10 surges ect
Odium is the 9th shard, 9 surges, 9 unmade ectopic
Cultivation is the 3rd shard, 3 moons, 3 spren...
Preservation is the 16th shard, 16 metals and mistings as part of his plan...
I certainly don't think there's a lot of evidence for this but it's there, and now we know sound, light, colour, mist, metal and Intent are part of a shard is it impossible that numbers are important to each shard and this is then getting confused and mixed into cultures in the Cosemer where shards invest?
Does anyone else get this vibe to or is it just me?
The Spren only come through because odioum is the god of emotion and the Spren are drawn to powerful emotions so I think odium is tied to the Sprien ability to interact with the physical world. Humans brought odeum and the spren
I've said for a while that kelsier is a great 'bond smith'
What was going on with Kaladin at the end of Rhythm of War when he was blacking out???
Is this an example of "pre-bound" surges? Is binding, in essence, putting a limiter on it by requiring a spren to keep them in line? Meaning that they now have to follow oaths to achieve their powers, thereby limiting their powers?
Commenting for the algorithm
Aren't there people who survived the Mist's snapoing who didn't end up as Allomancers? What if those WERE actually Allomancers for then-unknown metals?
Surviving the mist illness but not being an allomancer was a big plot point, which I choose not to spoil in this comment.
Still waiting for a bond smith to bind two orders together to make super radiants.
commenting for algorithm
If Michael Kramer ever retires from narrating audiobooks, Ben needs to audition to continue his work!
When discussing what Ashyn’s old magic system looked like, is it not also worth talking about Ashyn’s current magic system? I.e. the disease based manipulation of the surges. Admittedly that’s partly an assumption, but we do know that the surviving Ashynites live on giant rocks levitated by sick people, which sounds a lot like a different way of accessing gravitation.
Odium CAN grant Connection. How else do you explain Envoyform?
Although I really love Stormlight and think surge binding is cool. I still prefer awakening and allomancy as magic systems just because we know a lot more about them. We don’t even know what all the 10 surges do 😂
Evgeni, looking great! Have you been working out?
At 18min you discussed fused ability to hold voidlight indefinitely. Perhaps the fact that fused are cognitive shadows influences the ability to hold on, because if regals could hold voidlight indefinitely then why would it be normal for them to occasionally request more voidlight?