Archaeological Evidence For The Hopewell As The Nephites feat. Wayne May
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
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Wayne May's research concludes that the Adena people are the Jaredites. Archaeologists now say that they are the mound builders, and the Hopewell used and added to the mounds as they moved north from Florida.
Wayne says that the Hopewell, which lived from 550 BC to 400 AD, are the Nephites. He points to numerous stone tablets found in the mounds with Paleo-Hebrew written on them, as well as the descriptions of the fortifications matching from the Book of Mormon.
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When I was a teenager we had a Navajo teen stay with us under the old LDS placement program. For about a year my father was trying to learn how to read and speak Hebrew.
While he was practicing Hebrew one day, she happened to overhear him and got excited because she thought my Dad was trying to learn Navajo.
He explained he was trying to learn Hebrew. She said "no that's Navajo".
They then spent a couple of hours and found several Navajo words that were exactly the same as Hebrew.
They come from the south
The haerlanders, in my belief, had found jews just not the Nephites
At Chaco canyon and it Bandoleers they have parrot feathers that they figured came up with trade hundreds if not thousands of years ago. I think we really under estimate how much they all moved around and interacted.
Woe ! That is so interesting. I love hearing stuff like this. When I was in the Marines in the 1980s. I had a friend who was Navajo. His name the Eddy Eaglesheild. When I wasn't a very LDS member when I was young. Would go out drinking together. He was such a talker. He could walk into a room , and an hour later, everyone was his friend. He could tell stories. Many as the guy. He was so funny. But later it started going to church again, and I gave all that stuff up. Now I'm study the scriptures.big time.
@@scottishwarrior3547t 34:10 he Nephites were Jews. Lehi was from Jerusalem. And had a house just outside of it. And when they found the people who had king Coriantamur. King Mosiah ,.and taught them their language, because their language was so corrupted it would take years to learn. These were the Mulekites.
I have an “actual” archaeologist/paleontologist in my ward. He’s also an avowed socialist (not important but I shared anyway), we were talking the other day at my son’s activity day activity, and the origins of the Book of Mormon people came up somehow. We talked about Sorensen and Porter and the rest and the second that I mentioned I used to be 100% of the Meso-American mindset but now indifferent, but if asked I would say Hopewell, that was it. He lambasted me and other non-accredited archaeologists (like Wayne May and Meldrum and the rest) thinking they know more than the accredited ones. He roasted Heartland- Hopewell, Adena, etc. It was funny. I love this stuff. Thanks for sharing, Greg and Wayne.
I honestly don’t even care anymore where it happened though, our western civilization is in decline, won’t exist much past 2030 and I just want to be able to feed my kids next year and not have to fight with them telling me they are trans or part of the rest of the gqblt-p cult.
Leftist are not full of spirit, so are lead to lead others away.and by the way support things the church doesn't. I dont even think they get they are. But their ideology is tearing up the Promised land, letting whok-ism into BYU and the church. Not a fan
At least your sense of humor is intact! Interesting to have a 'socialist, archeologist, member of the church. Very incongruent.
May I suggest a fantastic podcast just put out. It's called, "Down the rabbit hole" on utube. The maker is adventures with Roger. He describes a systematic shunning of mound builder artifacts for 400 years in the US. By the Smithsonian and university museums. Incredible 1 hour documentary.
Have faith...The civilization will have the victory, because God will protect his people (those who love him and keep his commandments). Don't let the fear mongers scare you. The worst is almost over.
That's because if you look at actual archeological evidence, it contradicts what the heartlanders are saying.
@@BrianTerrill Curious. What archeological evidence? Evidence according to who? Church academy? Where does it say they built of stone in the BofM? They used wood. Alma 49, where do you find that evidence in Meso? The Hopewell did that. That evidence exists.
I could listen to Wayne and the others talk about this all day! Hope they know how much support they have. Keep going boys.
Me too! Definitely some good stuff.
Amen!
Same here!!
do you know the word "charlatan?" They speak with a tongue that deceives.
Psalms 85:11. “Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.” 😇
In the movie Phenomenon with John Travolta, his character is asked what he wrote. He replies, "Psalm 85."
Even before I heard about the Heartland theory, Meso-America has never felt right as a place where the Nephites lived and died. The more I look into it, the more Heartland makes sense. Some cannot accept that opinion, and that is ok. The Book of Mormon is the Word of God, no matter where it happened, and that's all that matters at the end of the day.
I totally agree! I believe the Jaradites were here for many years but there are so many tribes now. It’s interesting that they all call each other “tribes” since that is such an Old Testament thing. I’ve always felt that the Hopewell and natives in the North and also the Cherokee had creation myths that followed the Old Testament. We have not done well by them generally and we need to love them and help them be all they can be.
yet God is not the author of confusion, yet charlatans will come along and deceive many. Hello May and Meldrum.
I was born I to an evangelical environment and felt out of place until our family started going to the LDS church and my nephew feels the church is awkward and prefers the methodist like church he goes to. Feelings alone don't create facts.
Well, you just called josrph smith a "charlatan," since he agrees with May and Meldrum ... seems they're in pretty good company ... and count me in, too.
@@jonterry9843 fake news. Joseph Smith never said the things M&M charlatans are saying he did. Sorry try again.
I love Wayne May. I have read and studied A LOT on this subject and I find Wayne's arguments by far the most credible and convincing.
I've listened to and studied what both sides have had to say about where the Book of Mormon happened. I've enjoyed it all because there are many evidences everywhere! There are just so many for the Heartland model that I lean toward that direction. It is inspiring to listen to Wayne May.
I just absolutely love Wayne May, and this video was fascinating!! Thanks for having him as your guest. It’s so sad that LDS academia won’t even bother to listen to his findings, and they have refused to have him on LDS programs. Please bring Wayne May back. ❤🙏🏼
Academia .... ever learning, never coming to a kniwledge of the truth..
After listenting to the other podcast with Cheif David I am beginning to feel it is not the Churches place to bring this to the forefront. It is the tribes place. Maybe that has a different effect on the gathering???
Greg is a HeartLEANER! Love it. Great interview. Good job keeping him focused too. I hope you will have him back for more.
When I read the Book of Mormon, I take the statement that their people spread from the sea east to the sea west and from the sea north to the sea south, I took that to mean the whole continent of the Americas. I also, as I read, concluded that the Lamanites were "invited" to live in the South America area and the Nephites in the North American area...So Mesoamerica would have had evidence of habitation...I imagine we will someday know all things, but for now, I am satisfied with my assumptions (or maybe the Spirit teaching me). I always took the Sidon river to be the Mississippi River. So I believer they started in North America and the Laminates were cast in South America, but I concur that the last big battle was around the Hill Cumorah where the records were buried, and again if I'm wrong, I will find out when all things are revealed to us. (Conclusively)
Greg, I gave you three thumbs up for this one!! 😁
My desr brother in christ. You are talking to one of my favorite people. Love Wayne May.
For any who might discount Wayne as not a *real* archeologist let me mention that I am a qualified geophysicist yet that doesn’t automatically make me right. Facts stand on their own. In fact, if a professional’s career or funding is on the line - there may be real reason to be skeptical of their stance.
You have taken the words right out of my mouth. Thank you. 🎯
BYU academic work should be done with humility not pride.
*_2nd Nephi 27: 16_* tells us how a learned professor is invested into _the glory of the world_ , not in things of God.
Explain the unique special training as an archaeologist you have that would make you superior in digging and dating stuff found in the dirt. Please you take yourself too seriously. A flat curve in difficulty of knowledge required.
@skyflight99 - The logic about 'one's professional career or funding being on the line' cuts both ways. For example, Rod Meldrum's career is entirely vested in his Book of Mormon geography, the FIRM, and other related projects. So one cannot say that this logic only applies to BYU academics and career scholars in general, and not to armchair scholars like those who are the main proponents of the Heartland model. If one uses that as a reason to be skeptical of their stance, then it applies across the board.
@@philandrews2860
I am impressed with your confident, non-emotional logical response. A breath of fresh air to the free for all comments on these venues.
Finally about time you had him on. I appreciate what a good listener you are to your guests Graig. Looking forward to more please!
Wayne is a legend. Really has some great stuff he has gathered.
Love how Wayne’s phone is just on full blast and he doesn’t even care lol
LOL
36:45. Wayne does allow correction from Greg here.
I loved his comment, "I follow Joseph." Best source of Nephite culture information. I follow Joseph too. But it's my testimony through the Spirt that tells me the Book of Mormon is true.
Just finished listening to this episode while driving from Kentucky back home to Georgia when the Norris Dam was mentioned. Looked at GPS and it was only a couple minutes from us, so we took a quick detour and are now here at the dam checking it out. Super interesting place that looks like an ideal place to have a settlement prior to the flooding of the area behind the dam.
Wayne may, you certainly have a mission and you are fulfilling it so well. I love your books and your land of promise magazine.
I literally just read this today in my scriptures 🎉 thank you so much!
They found a city that appeared to be destroyed . They said it was jaredites and they rebuilt and repaired in what was there!
Man, ohh man! Is there ever a bunch of stuff in this video! Whoo boy! I've watched/listened to this 2x, back to back, and picked out more the 2nd time. This is all very convincing to me. Thank you!
This is so interesting! I have heard Lehi landed somewhere in North Florida. The Appalachian mountains end around Appilaciacola. If Nephi went north he would come onto the Tennessee River which flows North. I hope you have Wayne Maye on again.
Back in the 70s, my early morning seminary teacher, Bro. Spencer told us about his mission to upstate New York. He and his companion visited a farmhouse. The older couple weren't interested but offered them breakfast. After they ate, the farmer showed them several bushel baskets of arrow heads. Bro. Spencer asked him how many years it took to gather so many points. The man laughed and told him that they were from that Springs plowing. I was a bit skeptical 50 years ago, but now I wish I could have another conversation with him!!
But the bom says thdy used metal and steel. Arrowheads are made from rock. Couldn't have been from bom peoples
@@armalite81 He didn't say what they were made of. We can't speculate.
@@armalite81 By then the nephites were on the run. They would have used whatever they could find to defend themselves.
If you knew the enemy was coming to exterminate you and you wanted weapons would you care if there was only stone around there to make them from?
@@armalite81It never says they didn't use stone as well.
Go on a Heartland tour with Rod Meldrum. It’s clear where the Book of Mormon took place. Was a MesoAmerica follower before!!
The real Nephites were the friends we made along the way ❤
This is very exciting about the language being similar between the Ojibwa (Ojibwe?) and Hebrew. I watched an interview recently with Chief Midegah of the Ojibwe, and he said there are writings that have been preserved by his people, handed down through the generations. He knows his people are of Israeli descent. Very intriguing. (on Book of Mormon Hartland)
Yet neither he nor anybody have produced any writings whatsoever, have they?
This is not true... DNA studies reveal there is no Jewish DNA in America before 1650. NONE!
As a young girl in the 1960's I heard about the "Mound Builders" and was told their people were unknowable. In my heart, I knew they were special. When I joined the church in 1973 the Mesoamerican thought was main stream. Looking at those temples in central America, I just couldn't see them to be from the Book of Mormon. When I learned of the Homeland thought, and heard Wayne May's lecture, I was sold. I suppose in the end, we'll know the total truth. Thanks Greg for having Wayne on. Very interesting and satisfying.
You’re welcome
I know why it happens “the great divide.” Because “when they are learned they think they are wise.”
Excellent guest Wayne May.
27:15 location of "coptic out of egypt" seems correct when i look it up.
36:45. Wayne allows correction from Greg.
The source about Joseph identifying the bones as Jaredite is found in MS 23660 on the church history catalog. The title is "Notes from Elizabeth Baum's diary."
I thought Wayne said Elizabeth married Willard Bean but I don’t see that do you understand what Wayne meant?
Elizabeth Baum married George Washington Beam, and one of their children was Willard Washington Bean.
I’m a total Heartlander. Love Bro May.
I served my mission in Indiana and one of my areas was in Anderson. I remember one P-day we rode our bikes around the Anderson Mounds. I remember back then in 96-97 thinking this could be part of the Book of Mormon. So amazing!
@aprillkrstic6086
My daughter lives in Anderson and we are going to visit in July. I'd love to go see these mounds. Where is Anderson are they ?
@JediPitch Awesome! It's called Mound State Park when you look on Google Maps. Have fun!
@@aprillkrstic6086 thanks so much !
Yay!! Love Wayne May! :) So happy you have him on the show. :) Been following his work since at least 2008/9) It’s a dream of mine to be able to afford to work with him some day. Thanks Greg!
I have a lot of respect for Wayne May. What’s really great is that there are more people now getting interested in all of this evidence (including myself). I started to do some research on the ancient history of the area where I live in the southeastern United States a few years ago.
Little did I know that right around the corner from where I lived at the time, I would find artifacts and evidence of habitation, back in the woods, and I began researching more as information and Artifacts ,
started adding up.
So now I am communicating with other people who are as equally enthusiastic and serious about pursuing knowledge in this area. It has been really great speaking with people by email or phone and exchange information and getting other peoples opinions and ideas as well as being able to get some help going around obstacles and barriers that as Wayne says, our placed in our way by academia, who are quite frankly protecting their own jobs, and doing their best to stand in the way of any kind of serious book of Mormon research. That’s just my opinion.
So now that I have documented, one particular site, in between field walking I am now getting other people interested but of course still have to maintain the security and integrity of the location which is hard. Anyway, I love this, and I just find that my faith in the book of Mormon, truth is boosted by every new find , whether it is made by myself or someone else.
As for all the people in Central and South America, who built all those fabulous pyramids and temples carved of stone, it is my opinion and speculation that they are descended from some of the descendants of the people of Jared that were not destroyed in the great battle. I agree with Wayne on that,. I do not think they were all killed, but I do think just like the people of Nephi many years later, as a nation they were destroyed.
The verse in 2nd Nephi 27: 16 informs me about the motives of the learned professors. The ones at BYU whose reputations are supported by grants and supplemented by sacred tithes should be performing their careful work with humility _not_ pride.
@@rconger24 pride goeth before the fall…
I believe the Nephites as a nation were destroyed but I do not believe every Nephite was killed in the last great war. It is highly possible that groups went on expeditions to explore unknown territory many years before this event occurred. Just because we don't have a record of it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. Ward Radio has some interesting speculation on this.
@@stevehumble8865 I agree, as do several others who are researching the BOM. A few Nephites fled, most of them were hunted down and killed. Still others gave in and joined with the Lamanites. Possibility of facing your imminent death is a powerful persuasion. as for the people of Jared, I believe some of them also survived, and there are numerous accounts from different tribes that their ancestors met tall people traveling through different parts of North America well past the great battle at Cumorah, plus there are tangible evidence left behind, such as petroglyph and Artifact and the remnants of villages here and there, although most of those have been destroyed. Would you believe they even made it as far south as South Carolina?
@@csluau5913 yes, very believable! I read a book about giants in America and it explored the many skeletons found of people 7 to 9 feet tall and some were buried with armor. The book also talked about how the Smithsonian Institute has hidden these remains because they only want one narrative to be taught- that Native Americans came to America from the land bridge between Alaska and Russia during ice age. The Smithsonian has always known there were other races here besides Native Americans but they suppress the evidence.
I love this! Thank you so much for having Wayne May on!!
Love watching Wayne May. Thank you for having him on.
Love Wayne May and how he is helping people understand. God bless him.
Thanks Greg! Love this and love the Bruce Porter talks too!
I absolutely love Davids excitement. He gets me so excited!! and it all makes perfect sense to me. Love these conversations. Its not that i need proof of the truthfullness of the BoM but its so exciting, so fullfilling to hear these findings of Gods people. ❤❤❤❤
West Virginia Institute of Technology in Montgomery West Virginia excavated an Adena settlement on the banks of the Kanawha River at the mouth of Armstrong Creek. As a child in the early 1960's, our family watched Dr. Robert McMichael (I think that was his name), an archaeologist, unearth a skeleton of a pregnant Native American woman. They worked there, excavating the settlement until they had no more funding. A housing development was eventually built on the site. It is named Adena Village, Mt. Carbon, Fayette Co., West Virginia
Great podcast Greg. I’ve been a heart lander for ten years now.
It’s time to get our food storage if you don’t have it.
Our stake President in Eastern Idaho said he had a dream to tell the saints in his stake to have a food storage.
Murdered/martyred, in Joseph's case, is there any difference, in my mind the greatest difference is that martyred is in the service of God
Excellent questions Greg. Great interview. 💪
As Chief Midegah has stated, we may be looking at Meso vs heartland wrong. It’s possible that both areas have had peoples of the Book of Mormon. He’d be a great guest.
Also check out Chief Cloudpiler.
I haven't looked much into his words but this theory resembles or equates to the Hinterland Model, which proposes that Mesoamerica was the land mentioned in the Book of Mormon but that as other Nephites migrated northward at different times (Alma 63; Helaman 3), some of them reached the area of the "Heartland".
@@giovannifarinacci5946 chief Midegah is giving a North American setting for his people, but he’s also saying that there is open trade between all of North America and Central America and maybe even South America. That the Indians or whatever you wanna call them, travel through all of these parts of the continents trading and communicating meeting with each other. So they were not isolated. and definitely we know from the book of Mormon that Hagoth took people in different directions in very big boats to escape the wars. The book of Nemenhah is an accounting of the people who went north with Hagoth. And it starts with Hagoth story.
@@phadrus Thanks for the information.
@@giovannifarinacci5946 I am listening to chief Midegah‘s recent interview with Martin Braden right now on Midegah‘s CZcams channel. And he’s going into depth at the beginning of the interview with how the tribes could travel on the Mississippi very very quickly due to the currents, the group that visited them in 600BC, and the migration models.
As I have been reading, contemplating, and praying about the Book of Mormon the question always comes up about the earthen mounds. The Nephites raised up earth to fortify against those trying to kill them or bring them into bondage. The earthen mounds are spoken of a lot in the Book of Mormon. I haven't heard of any evidence of this in the Meso American model. Please let me know if I am missing something. I just feel strongly about what Joseph Smith taught.
Go to Answers in Genesis... they have a detailed study of DNA in "native" Americans... their is no Jewish DNA in the Americas before the Spanish conquest. Sorry no Nephites here.
Great show, loved your guest!
So thankful for the work of Mr May has been done. Saved my testimony. Meso model was really giving me issues. I finally found peace with what I learned about the heartland model.
I nominate Wayne to speak in the next General Conference! He is absolutely right!
I believe the Heartland model.
It makes sense and Joseph Smith wrote and others too about walking over the lands.
I believe Bro. Joseph.
Booyah!! Love this episode!!
Great discussion, thank you.
I'm not sold yet on either model nore do I consider it needful for my salvation, but as a lover of history I find it exciting. My issues with the north American model are no cement structures found that I'm aware of. And the Mississippi runs in the wrong direction to be the river Sidon that some try to make it out to be. But it's all very exciting as the Lord reveals more.
The Church no longer considers the River Sidon to be north flowing, based on closer examination of the Book of Mormon text.
@@IntoAllTruth. never heard that. Refrances?
I’d love some sources on that claim about the direction of the river as well.
Lots of holes with Heartland.
@@buddyloverealist zero holes. Only holes I’ve seen are in Mesoamerica. I had my testimony almost broke because of the holes. The heart land model finally brought peace to my mind on this.
BYU professors wrote their books and put their reputation on the line with the meso America theory. WHO wants to get them upset? That is their livelihood.
Those WHO you are referring to, aka John Sorenson, is dead.
As if the whole heartland tours offered by Meldrum and the likes aren't earning them money as well😅
2nd Nephi 27: 16 tells us how a learned professor is invested into the glory of the world, not in things of God.
@@rconger24 so now we discount all learned professors because of a prophecy specifically about Profesor Anton? That's nonsense.
The Truth NOT lies set's us free.
Thank you for this interview. I will study up on Wayne's finds. Maybe even attend the conference.
Heartlander here
I don't want there to be contention in the Church over Book of. Mormon geography. While I do believe the evidence, the Scriptures and the Spirit lead me to believe in the Heartland model, I don't want to get into any contention on the issue, which I have encountered before. Thank you for having Brother May on.
I'm a Meso guy myself, and one thing I find particularly odd is how often the Heartlanders have to announce what the Spirit told them. It's not as if we don't pray and seek guidance, but with the church issuing a statement saying "Individuals may have their own opinions regarding Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken." We take care not to declare our opinions as church doctrine, the mind and will of the Lord or something the Spirit told us when the First Presidency specifically declares 'the Lord has not spoken.' It's a form of spiritual manipulation when you do that.
@@BrianTerrill Why doesn't the Church come out and say something definitive on the matter. The prophet knows which one is the correct geography for the BofM.
@medeekdesign because the Heartlanders would go apostate. It's better to let them believe their silky delusions and keep bringing their children to church than have them all go apostate and turn their children into a generation of atheist.
@@medeekdesignThe prophet Joseph Smith and other prophet revealed it already that Lehi landed in Chile, South America.
@@foottanghyena5620I don't think he said anything so specific. Reference to your statement?
In the end, it doesn't really matter where the events of the BOM took place but I find the Heartland model compelling. Thanks for a great interview!
There are national covenants in The Book of Mormon that depend on the correct real-estate. There are "deed restrictions" relating to possession of The Promised Land to continue in prosperity and peace.
We will keep the commandments and worship The God of this land who us Jesus Christ or be swept off.
Yes it matters because there are rules and deed restrictions on the land. See Bruce Porter.
I just purchased Land of Promise issues 1-12. Can't wait to dive in. 😊
12 issues would be 3 years! Each issue will knock your socks off.
My hesitation with Wayne May is that he seems over zealous to accept artifacts that support his claims regardless of evidence about them being fraudulent. He doesn't present anything that refutes the accusations of fraud. He just says "conspiracy" and moves on.
That doesn't make him wrong necessarily but it certainly doesn't help the argument if it's accurate.
_Accusation_ runs wide and deep. Who it it saying they are "fraudulent" ?
Revelation 12: 10
@@rconger24 Basically the entirety of the archeological community.
Don't get me wrong, you can have all the experts in the world saying that something is fraudulent and they can all be wrong. It would hardly be the first time. on the flip side, there are often good reasons why experts say that something is fraudulent. Things like the Hebrew of being used coming from a much later time period or the discoverer having a history of being involved in fraud.
The issue with Wayne May's approach is that he doesn't present any counter evidence to suggest that they are not fraudulent. He just says "hey I like this so it's not fraudulent."
I'm open to counter evidence but I do need to see some counter evidence.
I agree. I have seen the arguments claiming the arguments are fake and there are some good points. However, it's also clear from letters between Smithsonian archaeologists that they had a strong desire to suppress any evidence of Hebrews in early America. Whenever they found Hebrew writings, they immediately dismissed them as hoaxes, even when they themselves found them during archaeological digs. One exception is the Bat Creek stone, which hey found in a documented dig in Tennessee, but thought the writing was cherokee and displayed it in a museum for forty years. They didn't realize that it was Hebrew because they were looking at it upside down. When this was discovered, they immediately removed it from the display. Such instances prove a conspiracy to suppress Biblical or Book of Mormon evidence. My supposition is that they are inspired by secret combinations and the devil to do so.
Thank you Greg - this is wonderful. I believe there is sooo much more to discover - and will be discovered. Our faith in the Bible is not diminished because we know precisely that Bethlehem and the Mount of Olives exist and when the evidence of Zarahemla and Bountiful sites (for example) are known our faith will similarly still be intact. And it will happen.
This is so awesome!
I appreciate the work Wayne has done. I do wish, though, he would not just say “it’s there” but give the references online, real time when asked. This is regarding Greg’s question about the journal entry of the daughter of Jacob Baum (sp?). Without a reference it is still just hearsay.
Even with the reference it's still hearsay. Elizabeth Baum could have misheard something or misunderstood. She could have been excited about the idea that the burial was "Jaredites" and made the journal entry without actually hearing Joseph Smith say that. A journal entry isn't the same as "thus sayeth the Lord" over the pulpit by the prophet.
@tgak116 The reference given is in comment attached to an above posting. It is MS23660 church history catalog.
Story of Joseph visiting a farm and telling the farmer that the bones he had found were Jaredites.
Hey Greg and Wayne, Have you listened to any of Chief Midegah's Heatland video's. He's calling out the Church to recognize them as descendants of the Book of Mormon and to help them blossom, although he seems a bit antagonistic.
Antagonistic? I give The Chief some leniency about that.
The Chief's family and people have been through some horred abuse. I am left to conclude to " _never judge another man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins_ . "
@rconger24 I am not judging him. I am making an observation. It doesn't matter what someone has been through, you can't just go on youtube and start making demands. Besides if the Chief believes his people are descedants of Book of Mormon, which I believe is highly likely, he would call his people to embrace it's message, the message we are all called to embrace: Come unto Christ; Repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost and obey the Lord's commandments. Those who make and keep covenants and humble themselves before God are those the Lord prospers and provides protection for. This is the repeated message of the BOM. There is no need to go on youtube and shake a fist and make demands of the church or to make claims that the Church or its members owes something to them. It's the wrong approach. Which is not to say that something shouldn't be done to help them.
Chief Midegah next? Loved this interview.
Hello Wayne, love your magazine
I realize and can appreciate the fact that some folks resonate more with a particular Book of Mormon geography and some with a different one. I see this as related to the fact that some resonate more with one particular theory with regards to the creation and flood accounts in the Bible, and some with another theory.
At the 49:00 marker, Greg ends the discussion with the point that there is a great divide between the Heartland model proponents and the Mesoamerican model proponents. Greg asks Wayne why this divide is there. Wayne doesn't really answer the question fully but does demonstrate part of the reason for the divide, as I see it. He also demonstrates, as does Rod Meldrum, a definite talent for being persuasive and 'down to earth' in his convictions.
The part of the reason for the divide that Wayne demonstrates is that the Heartland proponents are 100% convinced that Joseph Smith knew absolutely the actual locations of Book of Mormon events and cities, etc. They also seem to be 100% convinced that their theory is correct, based on the primary idea that Joseph Smith knew these locations. Science and physical evidences tend to take a back seat, and are interpreted in such a way as to fit that primary conviction that they have. The 2 anchor points they use as part of this 100% conviction are the Hill Cumorah New York location and the Zarahemla location as being just across the river from Nauvoo. They are possibly open to other models as long as they have the same 2 anchor points of NY Hill Cumorah and Zarahemla location as noted, since they are 100% convinced of these 2 anchor points.
The Mesoamerican model proponents have an entirely different approach and methodology. They don't believe that Joseph Smith or any of the other early church laters knew these exact locations, but were only making assumptions based on the limited knowledge that they had from the text and other sources. They believe that Joseph Smith likely had visions of Book of Mormon peoples but that these didn't necessarily translate into knowing the exact locations where they lived. They see Joseph's statements about "Zelph" and the "plains of the Nephites" as being interpreted as not necessarily meaning that the actual Book of Mormon events happened in what is now the USA. They use the text itself as the primary source of data rather than past statements of cherry-picked church leaders, and also are friendly to, and supportive of, mainstream science and academia, using both as part of their methodology. They are not at all 100% convinced of their model and are open to other possibilities, as long as they use a similar methodology and research approach.
This huge gap in basic research methodology is the reason for the great divide, as I see it.
Another point is that Heartland folks are misinterpreting the Mesoamerican model when they claim that the Mesoamerican folks say there are 2 or more Cumorahs. We only believe in 1 Cumorah, and that it was the hill where Mormon deposited most of the ancient records, which we see as very unlikely to be the same hill in NY state where Moroni buried the plates that his father Mormon gave him. We believe there is ample evidence that the hill in NY state was assumed to be the Cumorah of the Book of Mormon by early church leaders, after which it became tradition.
The only major problems I see with some of the Heartland model folks that worry me are these 2 things:
- That they sometimes conflate their testimony of the Book of Mormon's veracity with their geographical model. I see this as a red flag and is often a major point of contention with the Mesoamerican model folks. If the 1st presidency comes out with a statement of direct revelation on this topic, I'll listen. But they haven't, and until that time when anyone else says that they have received such a 'revelation', it sets off warning bells to many of us.
- When they insinuate that folks that don't believe in their model are somehow less faithful and are not 'following what the prophets have said'. That invokes a similar reaction as noted above. I see this quite often in their rhetoric, and it always rubs me the wrong way. Part of the problem is that it is conflating revelation and doctrine that is essential to our salvation with previous church leader statements on Book of Mormon geography which is not at all essential to our salvation. Also, given the fact that current church doctrine is neutrality on this subject tells me that we need to be careful about making such claims.
Frankly, I am glad there are 2 different models, in much the same way that I'm glad there are different interpretations of the creation and flood accounts of the Bible, some more science-based and some more scriptural-literalist based. If there were only the scriptural-literalist and Heartland models available, I would probably have left the church years ago when I encountered scientific evidence that contradicts those types of models, since I am a very scientifically oriented person. I can also appreciate the fact that there are many who claim they would have left the church at some point, if all we had were the more scientifically based interpretations available, without the literalist approaches like the Heartland model and young earth creationism, etc. However, I do believe that the old ideas regarding a literalist interpretation of the creation and flood accounts, and young earth creationism in general will become obsolete. In the meantime though we need to be patient and understanding of others who believe differently than we do.
I believe that eventually science and our religion will be in 100% agreement, but that may not happen until after Christ's return, or until we pass to the other side, whichever occurs first for us individually. Until then, we need to learn to be able to be patient and understanding of those who might lean more one direction or the other than ourselves. I firmly believe there is a happy medium between science and religion, and that those seeming contraries can be proven without abandoning one or the other. I try to place credence on both science and religion in such a way as to make them compatible without compromising one or the other.
Fence sitting, great strategy! 😉 I agree with most of what you said. Not that it matters
@@pfrizepfighter2799 - I don't think of it as fence sitting, but rather as an effort to have a mutual patience and understanding. I am not on the fence, as I am very firmly in the Meso-america camp :)
Is there irrefutable proof? Maybe not, but in my mind, the Heartland model makes more sense, and there is plenty of evidence to convince me. I find visualizing their travels along the rivers of central North America helps me understand what I'm reading. I'm well convinced of the Heartland argument.
PS. I live in southwest Ohio and see the evidence firsthand. I believe Ohio was the land Bountiful.
Yes, We will never get proof until the end. But there is evidence now.
Mee too!
And i Live in western PA.
I don't have a stake in this feud, as a Catholic convert, but I will say that this is fascinating content, thank you!
I’ve been following May for years. I’ve learned new things I haven’t heard him speak of like the Ojibawa man saying he can read some of the Michigan plates…no way?! How exciting! I read the Mystic symbol he spoke of and I really do believe myself that the Michigan artifacts are real. Too much to share here but it all made sense to me. It’s so fun! Just imagine the more information we will get over the years. The facts just keep piling up💪
Greg i wish you would have Chief Midegah on your show.
Yes... I've been watching him also and it's all coming together. :>)
Same here
Lmao chief mid is an apostate practicing priest craft and should stay in the shadows of CZcams
@@godsoffspring4195r😢😢😢😢😮
There's something off about that guy. I dunno.
Wayne probably not remember me or my husband, we were in the same branch in WI. I have been following him since I first started to see his presentations on the heartland concept.
I am DEFINITELy interested in getting that copy of Elizabeth Baum's journal on the large boned Jaredites at Nauvoo and the picture of the burial sites of the Adena men buried like spokes of a wheel. How can I get copies of that info. Greg?
Wayne May, I would love to go on a tour to the mounds! Is that in your future?
I believe Wayne is talking about Chief Midegah. Everyone should look him up and listen. His lineage isn’t just verbally passed down. They have ancient scrolls and a lot more. Mind blowing! Greg, you should contact him and have a discussion!
The Jaredites had a longer existence than the Nephites, even though they have a small record created by Ether. They were constantly at war with a lot of internal corruption. I think it's possible that many groups of people bailed from that civilization (like Hagoth with the Nephites) and migrated South, very far South, and when the core Jaredite civilization collapsed, these other breakoffs survived and became the majority of the ancestors of the Native people in the Americas and that Nephites and Lamanites mixed with them much like the lost 10 tribes mixed with their surrounding cultures. I think that could explain the DNA. The Mexican and South American tribes may be remnants that broke off from the Jaredites hundreds of years before their destruction to where they were completely separate cultures at that point and may have been completely unaware of each other. Just a theory.
Very interesting point for sure, not to mention; in the Book of Mormon it talks about how the Nephite and Jaredites spread through all the land both Northward and Southward etc.
I recently came back from Cancun, Mexico. We visited Tulum ruins. As we were enjoying the blue water at Isla Mujeres, I realized Florida wasn’t that far away with Islands in between. It would be a pleasant Caribbean cruse to get to Cancun area. I really think Way’s theories are spot on about the Nephites. I also think there was probably some migration down South of possibly the Lamanites. It’s just so easy to see how they could cross the Gulf of Mexico from Florida. Any thoughts?
I think the Nephites sent missionaries everywhere from The Heartland ❤️.
I would very much like to get a link to read Joseph Smith's comment to cover up the Adena/Jaredite bones 15:30 ... I'd love to have that!
Is there any possibility that a link could be shared here please?
A few years ago I saw a documentary, on CZcams, and they were discussing the evidences of the native Americans. If I remember correctly the main group started in Florida and Georgia Then spread out from there going north. Eventually the descendants of this group went south again and then into Mexico. The natives in Mexico were linked to the southeastern natives. The natives in Guatemala were said to be from Asia and their language had Hindu roots and their buildings were in the style of Hindu temples. I grew up on the Rio Grande River in Texas. I knew about the Mexican native Americans traditions of the White God coming and teaching them. I also grew up in the Church and believed what we were taught from Joseph Smith. My daughter was in 5th if 6th grade bought a book about an early American European girl being kidnapped from her colonial village by a native American tribe to replace the Native American child that has died due to the white settlers. I don’t remember the name of the book but the white girl, that grew up with the Native American tribe, wrote a book about her experiences later on in her life. The tribe had a lady teach the young white girl about their history and how to do things. The lady taught this girl that there was a Holy Man that had cone among them and he taught them how to live and treat each other. He also taught them about the vegetation and the what they could eat and what herbs and vegetation had medicinal value and what to use them for healing. I learned that the resurrected Christ had appeared on this continent to multiple groups of people in multiple places on the North American continent. I wish that I could remember the name and channel that produced the documentary about the Floridian group that had come to America in ancient times and had eventually migrated as far south as Mexico. I also wish I could remember the name of the young readers book that my daughter bought. We have moved and we gave all of her books that were in her bedroom back to her so I no longer have that book in my possession. There is archeological and linguistic evidence, done by archaeologists not members of the church, that back up what Wayne May is saying about the Heartland Hopewell group of native Americans. They even knew about the big battle that took place up in New York. Their dating of these groups also matches the Book of Mormon timelines.
Thinking Maybe " _Follow the River_ " by James Alexander Thom and "_He walked The Americas_ " by L Taylor Hanson
@@rconger24 the book about the New England Native American story was not a book written by a church member. It was a book written first older grade school children. My daughter bought it at a school book fair. It was also written by a female author. . Thanks for your suggestions.
The Natives in the Americas did not enter from the East. When the Vikings stopped by their were already people living here and all of the according to DNA record cam from the West.
@@youaregodspursuit I would have to disagree with you. True there were multiple migrations from Asian peoples migrating east from the west. There were also migrations from the American continent migrating further west. I just read comments on another video from descendants of the Polynesian people and Tonga telling of the known histories from those pacific island peoples. The histories of the northern native Americans say they came in through the St. Lawerence river that runs into the Great Lakes. There are some videos where Chief Midegah from the Objiwa tribe was being interviewed in which he states very different than your view of the known history of his people. Also, Chief Midegah stated that the language is family and most of the native American tribes in the eastern North America have the same language roots. The roots of their language, beliefs and lifestyle came from the Hebrews. After 2 years of studying with Chief Midegah the head Rabbis have signed documents that these tribes that chief Midegah represents came from the same as the Jewish people. I now live in the southeast where there are mounds that are very very ancient. I just saw a local news report where one of the news anchors descended from those natives and was talking about it. The mounds are in Georgia down around the area of a town called Macon. The descendants of the tribe are working on getting from the government recognition to set a larger part of the land designated so no development is allowed there. The documentary that I saw a few years ago stated and showed all of the ancient ship anchors that have been found around the Florida coastlines. They dated back to ancient Phoenician anchors from BC area. Changing the previous theory that the ancient peoples from the middle east coastlines did not have the ability to come over this far west in ships. Recently there has also been found a sunken ship off of Lebanon that has copper from the Great Lakes area of North America on it.
This connection I want to share for me is a game changer and highly supports the heartland model. It’s useful for us small timer regular guys, but even more for someone with influence. I hope both read or see this.
The seas spoken of in the Book of Mormon are not oceans! The proof is in the text itself. The Nephites come for the Middle East and there when referring to large lakes they call them seas. Ex: the Red Sea, Mediterranean Sea, Dead Sea, the Sea of Galilee , etc. That same terminology was brought with them and used in American for the Great Lakes. The East Sea and west sea are not descriptions of oceans, but the actual name of the lakes. And the language is specific through out the Book of Mormon. Whenever they speak of the ocean it’s called the great waters. Or many waters. Two distinct classifications used over and over. The narrow neck of land is a land between two seas or in our language lakes.
So good!
You should learn about the Ngati Hotu family of New Zealand. Left the highlands of the Iranian- Indian border 3500 years ago. Travelled via Egypt, North- Africa, across the Atlantic to the Americas. Their family DNA is found in the " Jaredite" areas of North America, along the Western coast, Mexico, South America, Easter Island to New Zealand. The DNA has been verified by National Geographic.
I'm a heartlander purely because of 1 Nephi 13, but my goodness Wayne doesn't help himself with not sounding a bit nutty. He needs to slow his cadence and discuss back and forth more rather than just spitting out facts and jumping from place to place so quickly. It feels erratic.
I could sense Greg forcing himself to stay patient while Wayne just kept going on and not responding to his questions so much.
Wayne, have more dialogue back and forth as opposed to just talking and talking and talking and talking and not realizing that Greg was asking questions and you just keep going and going. Slow down, have a conversation by listening more rather than trying information dump your entire catalogue of knowledge in 20 minutes.
If there were the ultimate truth on the earth, how would evil try to stop the revelation of it? When Jiseph prayed wasn't there something that tried to stop his utterance?
Joseph finally got the BoM done by talking talking talking as continuously as possible for around sixty days. We can't let the cares of men stop us when truth needs to get out.
You need to interview Chief Midegah
16:35 Willard Bean is my half great-grand uncle (I think that's technically our relation). Willard Bean is the half-brother of my great grandfather, Isaac Wall Bean (who was from George Washington Bean's third wife, Elizabeth Wall. Willard was born of his first wife, Elizabeth Baum). It's crazy to realize how few generations there are between then and now. My grandfather's (my grandfather, whom I knew well into adulthood before he passed) father must have known his half-brother Willard. He might have even been punched by him from time to time - or maybe not since there was an 8 year age difference😅
Willard Bean’s wife Rebecca was my grandpa’s first cousin. I knew her when I was young.
Jaredite site in Western North Carolina on Cherokee historical home land, with writings that no one has identified
Thanks greg
And for discussing utah governor
He was my husband's branch president in Wisconsin!
The mounds talked about - for some reason - reminded me of the "mounds" or "star forts" found across the US- mentioned by Dutchsince - who reports on earthquakes. He uses Google earth to show them often.
That letter is the nail in the couphin of the Mezo fairytale, I the scriptures the Land is the land always.
I always say people to pray on their own, but i know what i believe or have received is the absolute truth. A couple of years ago probably 3+ years ago i was severely struggling spiritual. I came across CES Letters, and was dealing with other facts/speculations against the church. In short a major spiritual disaster. In my mind i would go where God wanted me to go, and i was willing to leave the church. I struggled for several days or maybe even a couple weeks with a lot of ups and downs faithfully. After relying on God and God alone. Not church members, not pro church entertainment. I was told many times that the book of mormon is not a lie and the church is directed directly by God/Jesus. I struggled but took as truth even though my mind and feelings told me different. While minding my own business not doing anything spiritual i get hit with a major vision. I had seen a woman in white going into the heavens like a shooting star but going up not down. Then i asked are you saying that the church is the bride zion, and i got hit with soooo much spiritual energy AKA the holy ghost. After having that experience i came across the Hopewell people and theories that they are the nephites. When i discovered this, knew they had the be the nephites, and I've never heard of these people or the Egyptian Earth bult temple in Tennessee. In short i was coming across all kinds of evidence going along with BOM. i asked if this was the Nephites and i was told yes. I felt like i was being rewarded with a treasure for my faith in God. I was shown this all as a reward not to gain faith but to confirm my faith my communications with God. I know the so called Hopewell are proof of the BOM and Joseph Smith's relationships with God. Like i said pray for yourself, but i am finding it amazing that the past couple of years Hopewell is a big subject currently.
Ive been praying for a while that we as a people would have enough faith to receive more records?? Perhaps Jaredite scriptures?
I agree and pray for such things as well.
I truly believe after reading a book of Mormon several times the heartland is the only thing that fits.
It’s time to get our food storage.
I’ve never heard a stake president come out and say after months of planing for stake conference the Lord gave him dream a few nights ago to tell the saints in the stake here in Idaho to have their food storage.
In Alma 53 verse 5 Teancum caused the Lamanites to build their own prison.
Look at the great circle in Ohio. It's slightly raised in the middle and gently slopes to a trench thats all the way around. The trench is on the inside, not the outside. This fortification is designed to keep people in.
Look at the geography around the Hill Cumorah.
Directly to the north is Lake Onterio. To the west is Hopewell New York (named after a Hopewell fort there) To the south are several long lakes. This is an ideal location to gain a tactical advantage over a reasonable sized army.
These discussions are like the halftime show at a game. They are fun to watch and listen to, but at the end of the day, it doesn't affect the final score.
Lies never effect anything accept to fool the ones who do no checking on their own.
do you have the reference/source you mentioned around 16:15?
+1 for getting the source about Joseph saying the bones were from the Jaredites
The source about Joseph identifying the bones as Jaredite is found in MS 23660 on the church history catalog. The title is "Notes from Elizabeth Baum's diary."
@@t-dude7372Thank-you. Others in these comments have also wanted this citation and I hoped they would have seen this.
Does Wayne know chief David Midegah?
Also see Chief Cloudpiler. And video called “Native American (Navajo) Ceremony Insights.
When I was in Texas recently I saw what looked like the kind of mounds you are talking about. Is this possible?
Elizabeth Baum married George Washington Bean. They were the parents of Willard Bean (Fighting Preacher). I know this from my own family history and FamilySearch…
I love Wayne May's passion and have watched many of his videos. However, I don't see how the Heartland model works with the geographic details described in the Book of Mormon.