Google Memo: Beyond the culture war | FACTUAL FEMINIST
Vložit
- čas přidán 6. 09. 2017
- Christina Hoff Sommers, the Factual Feminist, offers her take on James Damore's now infamous memo, "Google's Ideological Echo Chamber".
DOCUMENT: Google's Ideological Echo Chamber goo.gl/A57TKs
ARTICLE: Google CEO's statement on the firing of James Damore goo.gl/4uWT7v
ARTICLE: Does biology explain why men outnumber women in tech?
goo.gl/xfCajJ
ARTICLE: What It’s Like to Be a Woman at a Tech Conference goo.gl/d5Kiib
Subscribe to AEI's CZcams Channel
czcams.com/users/AEIVideo...
Like us on Facebook
/ aeionline
Follow us on Twitter
/ aei
For more information
www.aei.org
Photo credits:
James Damore
Alice Eagly
BY - fdecomite goo.gl/YHy3ey
Twenty20
Chloe Condon
Third-party photos, graphics, and video clips in this video may have been cropped or reframed. Music in this video may have been recut from its original arrangement and timing.
In the event this video uses Creative Commons assets: If not noted in the description, titles for Creative Commons assets used in this video can be found at the link provided after each asset.
The use of third-party photos, graphics, video clips, and/or music in this video does not constitute an endorsement from the artists and producers licensing those materials.
AEI operates independently of any political party and does not take institutional positions on any issues. AEI scholars, fellows, and their guests frequently take positions on policy and other issues. When they do, they speak for themselves and not for AEI or its trustees or other scholars or employees.
More information on AEI research integrity can be found here: www.aei.org/about/
#aei #news #politics #government #education #google #googlememo #technology #biology #feminism #feminist #science
Why is a lack of women in tech a problem but not a lack of women digging graves?
or garbage women or military officers, or like a ton of shit. What about no male nurses lol. Feminists are idiots. Just nazis in female form
They don't want to be equal, they just want the good parts of being a man.
Or a lack of men doing nursing...
@@OfficalRevoltbydesign Women do want to be military officers. They're not lining up to be infantry, and they're not keen on signing up for compulsory service in the event of a draft.
hit nail on the head, men adore women but ratio's and pay gaps is now getting boring
I like Chloe Condon's approach. Here's why.
My guy is an engineer. Not only that, he went into the nerdiest area of engineering imaginable. The field where only the most technically brilliant (and often the most socially inept) will even manage to get a degree, because anyone with social skills would choose something easier. There was one woman in his graduating class of about 50 (and unlike 90% of the men, she had several job offers 6 months before graduation. If I recall, she took the one that offered lots of people interaction in engineering sales).
My guy is 6 feet tall. His shoulders are 3 feet wide. He has the squat build of a power lifter. He has out of control facial and body hair and huge hands. He's not socially awkward at all. Nearly all of his male classmates were skinny, short Sheldon clones. The only one even remotely as tall as him had the hairless face of a 14 year old kid and was not muscular at all.
He had instructors tell him more than once that he looked like he should be in a trade, or working with his hands. Came right out and said, "yeah, you just don't fit in. You don't look like you belong here. You're just not the type." Whatever that means, I guess.
His job search was REALLY difficult. It took him more than two years, 7 months of it working graveyards at a bakery, before he landed a permanent position in his field. The position is with a small company where all three owners began as tradesmen, and where only three of the employees (my guy included) have engineering degrees. All the other employees just have trades tickets or high school. He managed to find a niche where his skills as an engineer are needed, but where he fits in with the owners and other employees. But yeah, it took him forever.
He can't blame sexism, though. Or racism. Or any other official "ism". He can certainly point to stereotypes of what an "engineer is supposed to look like". His instructors' comments obviously confirm those stereotypes exist and also confirm that people are fine acting and speaking on those stereotypes when they know they aren't on the wrong side of some violation against a "protected class".
My guy says looking back on it with 20/20 hindsight, he'd have gone into petroleum engineering, or even civil. Would have been way less work to graduate, and he'd have landed a job faster. And it would probably be a job similar to the one he was eventually hired to do. Because the truth is, he DOES look and act like he'd be more at home working with a bunch of roughnecks than in an R&D lab, and the reality is, he's more comfortable in the former environment than the latter, anyway.
Oh well. Lesson learned. Complaining about stereotypes only gets you so far. Sometimes you have to shrug some things off and make an effort to fit in.
What was his degree in? I'm assuming not mechanical, electrical ...maybe computer? I started out in computer myself and ended up switching to electrical because I was more into hardware and not software. Even in electrical we only had 2 females out of like 40 something in our graduating class(2000).
That's cool I'm a little younger but I want to be a mechanical engineer I almost have a high enough grade to get into MIT
... or in other words: "Life isnt fair ... DEAL WITH IT"?
I agree Karen, that sometimes, you just have to shrug some things off and do whatever it takes to make a living.
+ Muck006,
Life lesson 101: Life is UNFAIR, DEAL with it.
Life lesson 102: Deal with it in a healthy and non-destructive way.
Life lesson 103: Avoid the SJW way.
My daughter has an open door to the tech industry. She has no interest in it. We don't need to push woman into STEM we need to encourage woman who have interest in STEM.
mandy Pe What's wrong with them doing what makes them happy? Why is there always a need to get women into fields dominated by men but not the other way around?
Exactly!
Hi
I agree the focus should be on positivity. If you're a Women and want to go in to Tech then just do it. Misunderstandings always occur if you're not what's expected, it's not sexist.
If more Women did Degrees in the subjects suitable for those jobs, then there would be more Women in those jobs.
No complaints that there are more Women in certain fields. Only Male dominated ones get complaints. I just hate the hypocrisy of this stupid mainstream feminist crap.
Breath and a Scream There are even sponsored incentive programs to get women and minorities to go for those degrees there are discrepancies in.
Breath and a Scream But for Damore and people who agree with him to always so completely ignore the different ways boys and girls tend to be raised influencing the careers they pursue by the time they're adults seems illogical and... deliberately done to hide sexist personal views.
ApartmentViews You presume wilful intent to hide views, where people can interpret data differently.
Is there an influence stopping Men going into Nursing in the same numbers as Women, for example?
Why no push to get more Women Street Cleaners or the shitty type jobs? You could also argue that the push for the High quality jobs but leaving the poorer ones to be dominated by Men, as a way to hide sexist views towards Men, if you want to think like that.
Breath and a Scream Yes. That's a perfect example I use sometimes. I do think far fewer men pursue nursing because they view it as a woman's career. So much of the media we all grow up with pushes that idea. "Nurse" practically has a feminine connotation. When people fetishize or reference a "sexy nurse," they're almost never referring to a man.
Men have an inherent biological physical advantage over women that is actually measurable and observable. They also tend to be biologically wired to indulge in riskier behavior. These things make them far more suited for especially physically demanding and risky jobs than most of their female counterparts. Though I'm sure some of why women go into construction less is the perception that it's masculine too and I do see women encouraging girls to pursue Waste Management and Construction. At my high school's job and trade school fair, there was an entirely female team of WM employees trying to encourage girls to join the Waste Management profession so yeah, that encouragement is definitely happening. But there are deeply-rooted ideas about feminine and masculine careers in all of us that are difficult to overcome and that most of us don't have any desire to overcome.
ApartmentViews I don't get why it's ok to say Men take risky jobs, but someone that says Women like people oriented jobs gets labelled as hiding sexist views? That's doing the same thing, looking at data and suggesting a biological reason for it.
If Men do go for more risky Jobs as you said, would not the case be, that jobs like a Nursing would be less appealing, as opposed to being influenced by society norms. _I don't get how two opposing views can held_ It's biological when it suits people and sexist when it doesn't.
Nothing to stop asking Women to bare the burden of less appealing jobs that are physical or poorer quality. If someone can take the job on they will. If it means challenging society norms, Women will decide if they are physically capable, instead of reinforcing a gender stereotype.
I think the Doors should be open to all for all Jobs / degrees.
I agree with Christina - except that I disagree that his memo was easily misunderstood by those who read it... It was misunderstood by most because barely anybody *actually read it* themselves!
People just saw the virtue-signalling articles with shoddy or non-existent analysis and decided that James Damore was saying things that even a quick-skim of his memo showed that he wasn't.
Though yes he probably should have left out the part about the neuroticism due to the predictable inflammatory response it was likely to invoke in readers. It wasn't important to his point as far as I can tell, so I don't know why he'd give critics ammunition.
I especially agree with Christina on the way Google should have handled this situation. Rather than fuel rhetoric and fear instead opt to actually start resolving any problems by using empathy and smart communication effectively to communicate with and advance all parties.
He explained why he used such technical terms, he never expected for the memo to go public, he thought it would only be read by people who should had understood the technical meaning of those term. Reflecting on it, he does agree that he shouldn't had used such technically terms that can be proned to misinterpretations. Perhaps he thought using fancy technical terms would make him look smarter and more sophisticated, I know I do that when writing scholarly papers.
He even put in parenthesis what the technical meaning of the term is, not that his lynch mob cared of course. And yes, studies do show that women do tend to have lower stress tolerance, which can absolutely contribute to more of them not wanting higher level but more stressful jobs or not being able to excel as well in such jobs.
We have to stop walking around egg shells for these kids otherwise they will never learn
Oh, come on!
The only reason there is even a question of why there are few women in tech is because it's a comfortable job that's done in an air-conditioned environment, safe, secure, well paid, and trendy.
Other jobs that are well paid are deep sea fishermen (or should that be fisherperson?), and long distance driving, but there's no cries of "Where are all the women?" when it comes to those jobs, which are close to 100% male dominated, why? Because they're not done in a safe, secure environment, and they're not trendy jobs you can boast about at posh dinner parties.
Enough of this crap!
I will never take their whimpering seriously until I hear them complain about the lack of women in other fields, like sewage, garbage disposal, street sweeping, white goods delivery, road maintenance, security, armed forces, etc.
They're called manholes for a reason, because no woman would ever go down one.
Couldn't agree more.
Some would there is always outliers... lol But you do make a valid point, women are not complaining about jobs that are less desirable. Alot of this is driven out of an imbalanced created by certain environments, like colleges who pick and choose what to study... They probably don't even care to look at why there is barely any women doing garbage picking... Their premise is generally false, and comes from a place of wanting to control human behavior... Government is about control, they fund these ideas to begin with often times...
"Unfortunately it is going to take really mass terrorism or a meteor to get us out of these easy times"
Damn "easy times" -why can't life be hard?
Uh... are you saying women likes to be harrassed? Air conditioning is misogynous.
6oodfella What is your point exactly? Men have an inherent physical advantage over women that makes them better suited much of the time for especially physically demanding jobs, not that there haven't been women to hold those jobs. There really is a physical biological difference that explains why more women aren't firefighters, construction workers, stormtroopers, and the like.
I worked in IT as a computer programmer through the 80's and 90's, although not in silicon valley. In my experience working with men and women programmers I did notice a significant difference between the way we guys approached our field vs the women.
A lot of us guys loved to spend our spare off work hours tinkering with computers and different computer language compilers. I can remember getting so involved in playing with my own first PC, A TRS80 back in about 1980, that I lost all track of time and didn't realize that it was so late until I looked up and discovered that it was long after midnight, and I had to go to work early the next morning!
Most women on the other hand spent little if any time playing with computers and compilers during their off work hours, preferring to spend their time instead socializing with their friends and families. In fact the women would often arrive at work late, leave work early, and take off as much time as they could to spend more time with their friends and families. While I accumulated a lot of overtime and sick leave hours because I worked so many hours and took little time off, I donated a large portion of my largess of sick leave time to a woman who needed it to take time off for an operation where she would be absent from work for a long time.
There were many times that my employers needed someone to work overtime to fix problems in program systems that had just gone online and still had many bugs. We usually set up a rotation among us programmers so that we each would take a turn at it. I frequently volunteered to do overtime at work so that a woman co-worker could go home to be with her friends, family, and children on what would have been her rotation, especially during the holidays.
Even as far back as the late 70's, early 80's feminists in the office frequently complained about women not getting equal treatment to men. Their complaining often led to getting preferential treatment for women instead. When it came to advancement to supervisory positions, women were often promoted preferentially to appease feminist complaints. That didn't really bother me because I wasn't interested in becoming a supervisor anyway, I liked doing the programming work and being a supervisor involved a lot of managing people, which I had absolutely no interest in.
But there were other incidents that did bother me a great deal. Like when an e-mail was circulated in the office with a long list of jokes that had men as the fool in them. I took one of those e-mails one time and reversed the gender roles in the jokes, making them jokes with women as the fool in them, and sent the e-mail to all of the original recipients. I was reprimanded for sending an e-mail with a list of jokes denigrating women. When I pointed out that the original e-mail was the same jokes with the gender roles reversed, I was informed that it was OK to send out an e-mail like that with men as the fool in it, but not OK to send out an e-mail like that with women as the fool in it. How is that women getting equal treatment to men? But that is second and third wave feminism as I have come to know them.
C Laird This anecdote seems like it might not being entirely truthful. And then the way you go on about feminists seems like a bit of reveal of your bias and insight into your inclination to fib.
AV, I assure you everything I posted happened as I described. Perhaps it is your own bias that is preventing you from being able to see the truth as I have reported it. I have noticed that a lot of feminists refuse to acknowledge the truth about feminist claims that CHS has detailed in her book 'Who Stole Feminism' and in her videos, even though she has researched her facts very thoroughly with the best sources she could find. The video CHS made about the top five myths of feminism is an excellent example, she says that they have been heard so often that they have become beyond the reach of critical analysis.
Cassie Jaye has also run into that same refusal to see the truth when she came out with her documentary 'The Red Pill'. She was originally a feminist who decided to make the documentary as an expose on the Men's Rights Movement. But as she progressed with her documentary what she learned about was the distortions and fabrications spread by feminists, and in the end she decided to renounce feminism. But instead of recognizing the truth as she did and acknowledging it, many feminists have attacked her documentary and her personally in the MSM, often without ever even seeing the documentary themselves. Their own feminist bias prevents them from seeing the truth, and they attack anyone who dares to question their feminist dogma.
LW, I suggest that you read the reply I posted to AV.
M. de k., having worked in the field for decades I can tell you what the quality of their work is like. Have you ever heard of a plumber's nightmare? Try to imagine code like that. We in the field have a term for it: spaghetti code. And there were some men I worked with who weren't really into the field for its own sake too. Some people, both men and women, got into the field only because it was reputedly so lucrative. They didn't really care about the quality of their work, just the sizable paychecks they could get for performing it.
I spent a lot of time trying to untangle the messes they left behind when they moved on and I was assigned to take over their programs. That's something you will learn about when you get into the field. If I was an instructor teaching programming, one of the assignments I would give students to give them a taste of what it is like in the real work world would be to write their programs and do only a first compile. Then I would have them trade their programs with each other to debug to experience working on someone else's code. That's one thing I didn't experience when I took programming classes when I was majoring in computer science in college, but it is much more like life in the real world of programming.
I don't think they "think differently". I think they are simply less interested (statistically speaking) in "tinkering with stuff". How many women you ever saw disassembling and fixing a car engine, and enjoying the process?
Nerds used to be mocked for being useless around women, now they are macho misogynists?
razvaz ...indeed!
Women demonize all men, I noticed. They want to be victims. You have to be a bad guy.
Not in the least, Shill for Science. I've always done very well with women.
I don't even hate women. But I don't believe we're the same. I think women have an instinct to view themselves as victims and men to believe them. Why else would the feminist movement have spread so many lies for so long despite the claims being false?
Personally, I think it's because women have a proclivity to assume men are doing them bad, and men to take them at their word. Hence, the epidemic of high profile false rape accusations with no prosecutions.
You know those popular girls in highschool cliques who'd bully the nerds and go for the jocks? They grew up. They're feminists now -- worse yet, influential feminists in positions of power. That charisma got them places, if they weren't born with a silver spoon already, and the faux social justice ideology justifies it all. The high school girls are still bullying the nerds for being too beta. Why do you think they call us incels now instead of virgins?
It's all a shit test writ large, really.
Funny!
One of my best friends daughters ( I've been part of their family's group of friends since before her birth) is an engineering student. She has an amazing mind for math, for mechanical design and computer software. Her reaction to that guy's firing at google was pure exasperation. What she said was, if you want more women in science then two things have to happen, more science needs to be taught in the K1-12 system (which applies to both men and women) and more women need to prepare academically both in high school and the first two years of college..... and then go into the science fields. Until women go into those fields in numbers close to men, then the logical outcome is more men than women in science. She told one of her female friends at school this and got a long lecture about feminism and how the system is rigged. Sigh
Don't forget to tell them that they also need to put their phones down and get off social media for hours every day while they use that time in the library learning subjects like technical physics, calculus 2 and discrete mathematics. Also, they need to not be surprised when they upload pics of what they are studying and the thumbs up counts on Facebook start going down because most people don't understand it or don't find it interesting.
I like her response, but I have to disagree. I think the fact that in the first world women are so free that something difficult like linear algebra or high level calculus doesn't appeal to them, and they have the freedom NOT to choose those classes has more to do with why women don't chose those classes then any other reason.
@Aaaa Choice is a beautiful thing. The question is will people accept the consequences of their choices if it is not what they wanted and take responsibility for it, instead of pointing fingers at society?
@Aaaa I'm a generation Xer and we had immature kids back then like we do now, but by the time they went to college, most didn't have the crazy mentalities that exist today. I studied computer science in college and we had very few women, and no one cared and no one was putting down women because of it. We passed by the education department that was dominated by women, and no one cared and no one was putting down men for not studying to be teachers. Now, everything is an issue if there is no forced balance in career choices by the sexes. Stupid.
@Aaaa well, I'm a Christian and I never heard that we should be separated by class, at least not in America. In America, the constitution does not promise anyone anything like money or career, etc. It does however promise life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness to all its citizens. There is the keyword, PURSUIT...meaning they have to want it and work to achieve it with the equal opportunities that exist. It applies to men and women equally. Should the government promote more women in math and science, I don't see a problem with that. but if they promote it and they don't see the change that they were looking for mainly because they don't want it, then leave them alone and stop trying to pretend like it is white Christian men that are stopping them. That is NONSENSE!
There is a perfectly obvious solution to the gender gap in tech: PAY LESS ATTENTION TO PEOPLE'S GENDER. People can decide to do anything they want in life regardless of their gender and if we stop categorizing people this way, the prejudiced problem disappears. There are always going to be people who work in tech, and people who don't work in tech, and there is no problem with that. Those are the meaningful categories - not men vs. women.
Sadly, a lot of people think paying more attention to gender is a good direction to go to...
*"PAY LESS ATTENTION TO PEOPLE'S GENDER."*
but then we would have even less women in tech-related fields.
Yes, they tried it by removing any racial or gender identifiers in job-applications for several fields, and suddenly way less women got a positive evaluation.
What's the problem in having less women in tech-related fields? Why categorize people by their gender? What matters is that people, who are interested in tech get opportunities in tech, regardless of their gender.
Being a sexist that assumes people's individual tendencies by their gender is the cause of the problem.
People do not represent any group of people (or the average of any group of people) just because of their skin color, gender, ethnicity, religious background.
People are individuals.
ABaumstumpf Paying attention to nothing but gender has not had positive results either. There was a Feminist headed push to urge more women into tech through the 1980s & 90s (probably the 70s, too). The largest % of female enrollment we saw was 20-30%. It dropped off soon after, especially after the .com bubble burst.
We've seen another push again today, and it's back to 20-30% enrollment in tech related fields. Guess what happens next?
If you actually take a look at the positions created for women today I think you would find the majority are more reliant upon women's studies degrees (clearly a highly misguided people oriented field) as opposed to tech. That is what makes their dismissal of J.D's suggestions more infuriating. He wanted them to being more people oriented women into the loop in jobs that are also tech related. Jobs that will benefit the company as opposed to rip it to shreds, which is what this breed of victimology feminism does to everything it touches. I personally do not give one flying fuck how many women are tech. I have better things to worry about but if people honestly care they should have taken his suggestions more seriously.
The people pushing this do not care about the tech industry. They care about winning a war and meeting quotas at the expense of women, men and the tech industry in general.
Captain: I agree with your observation. Feminists believe that the outcome in this field doesn't match their expectations and demand an action to balance it out. They are for equality of outcome. It is like a little sister complaining that her brother got more ice-cream and how unfair it is.
Polly's Shore :
And i was sure my post showed the hypocrisy clear enough that people would notice that i am not in favour of using gender as a qualification.
Much has been written and broadcast about Damore's memo. I think people should read the source material. I find it ironic that he was fired for this memo, considering that he examines ways to get more women into the field.
I honestly thought they fired him so they wouldn't have to hire women.
"Awkwardly worded and easily misunderstood" Bullshit. I read it was the easiest thing ive ever read. Most people havent even read it and just want to cry about something
Talk to Damore. I think if you discuss with him you'll see just how egregious his dismissal was.
I couldn't get over how consistently everyone misrepresented his memo, I hate calling things "fake news" but it definitely applies here.
This has been one of the biggest most disgusting incidents of "fake news" and false narratives that I have seen in years.
She totally knows it. It's just that this time, she tried to be much more understanding to the ones blaming him so as to convince them, that's what "the new approach" is about.
So basically if a guy says these things, it's bad. If a woman does it, you pointed out two, then it's okay.
Why would the Factual Feminist have left out references to women's higher neuroticism and anxiety? They are simply facts, Christina, and they do affect interactions between workers and hence, are germane.
It's starting to upset me that people don't know neuroticism as one of the big 5 personality scales it's not an insult everyone male or female or anything in between get's rated on the scale.
Many men are high in neuroticism too it just means you tend to be more likely to worry and feel guilty I have high neuroticism.
Like the other 5 it's not a 100% negative trait people with low neuroticism tend to not care how their actions effect others, or worry about problems until they are too late.
Frankly it's a trait I'd rather be high in but just because women on average are more likely to care how we effect other people then men it's suddenly a sexist term.....
@@VioletDeathRei Because that requires knowledge, which is sometimes uncomfortable for people with an agenda. I am a man with 56 percentail neuroticism. I do worry most of the time and at fist glance everything is a major disaster for me. I am literally searching for things to go wrong... funny enough, at my job as a site engineer this was helpful as then we could prepare for hypothetical risks. Personally I struggle with it sometimes but understanding it makes it easier to manage myself.
It still seems like a clear double standard the fact that when you have a field dominated by women it's perfectly fine, but when it's dominated by men it MUST be sexism. If you truly think a large gender disparity is a problem and is indicative of sexism, you should be just as concerned and passionate about getting more men into teaching or nursing positions, especially considering I'd wager that ironically the gender disparities that may be a result of some form of sexism may actually be in the female dominated fields rather than the male ones.
Just two points.
He did not claim biological difference as the ONLY reason, he even acknowledged that sexism exists in tech.
He also gave suggestions on how to make the industry more desirable for woman, whether they would work is of course another story.
We also have a too few women in mining industry problem. Not enough women miners! But funny that nobody talk about THAT problem
Or the shortage of female garbage collectors, builder's labourers or sewer cleaners.
Also, far too few women in prisons...
@@2bobafcome out of your privileged place. There are a lot of women in such field.
One of the best responses to the memo I could find. Thank you!
The bottom line in our opinion over here in the gender-critical scene in Germany is: people should be allowed to make free choices based on their natural or any other inclination. As Jordan Peterson has pointed out, decades of socio-political promotion of gender levelling have led to a MAXIMISATION in gender-specific preferences: there are not less women in nursing, THERE ARE MORE or just as many as before. Same for engineers (just as many men). So, if you don't indoctrinate children and let them (as adults) make their own free choice, things work out like this. What's so bad about it?
Here's a question: who is it that wants to deconstruct sex differences anyway? You have 3 guesses, but it certainly is not the majorty of the population
You are the top 10 reasons to subscribe to AEIs channel.
That's a backhanded compliment if I've ever heard one
coincidently i also don't watch the other contents of yours x)
American Enterprise Institute
Do more with Charles Murray then mom will only be the top 5. I already own all their books....
I'm not sure we should be discussing the non50/50 representation of men and women as a "problem." Let people choose what they want to do. I would also point out that any demand for 50/50 in a full time job is waaay off, in the UK women only make up 37% of full time workers so it would be insane to assume 50% of all 'top of the pyramid' places would be occupied by women.
im glad you took this approach to this whole debacle. it was honestly very midline and well representative of facts and of thoughts and clashes of both sides. its good to know im not the only one utterly over/underwhelmed by the new culture wars. thank you for taking this in a very reasonable direction, it allowed me to look a little beyond where i had been.
well said. I always enjoy your segments, and you often reference people I did not know existed previously. Keep up the good work Miss Sommers.
Awww... greatly disappointing. Damore points out that biology is only one part of the explanation. His greater point is that they cant even TALK ABOUT IT! Even you say you'd have left out the negative sounding parts. Your suggestion to bring in "sane scholars" would do the same as his memo. *sigh*
I can't say with any certainty an answer to the question of why there are more men than women in tech.
But I can say this: The answer is not "SHUT UP!!"
Phenomenal. You are always so clear, concise, and even-handed. Thanks Based Mom!
Wonderful work as always.
I too am tired.
You give me strength.
I wish you were my mother / teacher ms Christina Hoff Sammers. 🤗
Κυριάκος Μπαρέκας ^ Awwww 😌
That's a serious awwww, btw.
Referencing guys like Nietzsche is part of the problem. People today do not differentiate between something said by an 18th century man with strained relationships with women and the attitude of men today. Ya Nietzsche's views on women were awful by today's standards but they echoed sentiments of the time, specifically those that Pride and Prejudice poked fun at.
Today's discussions about biological differences are to explain observed trends not to prescribe actions and the very fact that we fail to recognize that is what led to the outrage over this memo. Those who got angry didn't read it for what it was they read it as though it were a prescriptive statement about how women SHOULD be
Shawn McRoberts yeah except much of the shit said was wrong
Mario mario you are the very definition of a moron, a drooling, slack-jawed, hyper-unaware fool, stumbling through life until the equation is equaled out and you return to the dirt from whence you came.
I must say, it is great to hear someone from the feminist group that takes a calm cool response to these topics at such a volatile time as this.
A quality AEI video to tackle a sensitive subject, good job ma'am.
Love you 👑👑
joe eccles gay😕
Molndannon yea boi, wanna dock ;)
joe eccles Im rather busy that day😐
Molndannon nothing gayer than loving women. AMIRIGHT? *dude high five ✋
Thank you for being a voice of reason
Lady, I love your videos.. In a time when people are way too fast to throw someone under a bus for a word of phrase, you step in with facts.. This is why your videos bring a light to a bleak world of discussion. Keep up the good work..
Best summary with feedback on this subject. Thanks FF!!!
2:40 Why would you have left that out? Do facts offend the Factual Feminist?
Good to see someone else wondering about that.
Why indeed! Men tend to be more obsessive (which, just like neuroticism is hardly a positive word)... should we left that out in case men get too upset?
Also, did you know that women at Google were told they could stay at home over the next days following this if they were too upset about it... which is proving James' point about neuroticism!
+Place Holder ~ _"Obsessive does not carry the same negative connotation as neuroticism"_
Tell that to people who have stalkers. I'll agree that obsessiveness is not something found more or less in either gender, but neuroticism certainly is, the way it's defined in the research. The research wasn't saying men can't be neurotic, it wasn't even saying that a _lot_ of men can't be neurotic, it was saying the women are neurotic in greater numbers.
What research? You clearly haven't looked into this because you'll find there is no definitive research. You need to not take this Damore idiot's word for it.
Cristina HOT Sommers imright?
GILF af
I was hoping her "new" approach involved nudity
urright
This video is absolutely spot on. I would add more, and have elsewhere, but Christina Summers has really encapsulated it all in one short video.
This was very good. I like your new style and the fact that you're not buying into the rhetoric of the culture wars. God knows, we've heard enough of that. It's time to make constructive suggestions about how we might get past some of these issues. You make a good start here. Please keep going in that direction.
Let's not listen to 2 geniuses of the past, because they said something, which is incompatible with our current Women are wonderful Narrative.
I don't think Christina meant you should discredit past geniuses. Rather, that as time advances, there are updates or changes in the knowledge we had. She might also have meant that not everything a genius says is true/good (criticising appeal to authority).
The opposite can happen too: say, Hitler, for example. He's responsible for the first anti-smoking campaign in modern history, something most of us can agree is good That doesn't dissipate the fact that he killed millions of people.
Nietzsche and Kant made statements that we now recognise as false. Having their names attached to these statements gave them credibility, making them more easily propagable. We can acknowledge this, without taking away their brilliance and our admiration for all the wisdom they gave us.
Sorry for the essay. "Think critically/look for nuances" is what I'm getting at.
Have a nice day, good sir or madam.
She wasn't saying that. She was just pointing out that there is was sexism in the sciences. Just not to the degree that Feminists claim and especially not in modern times. All the examples were old.
With that said, I actually don't think Nietzsche was being that much of a jerk. Scientists, male or female, are ugly.
lel
Everybody loves Based Mom! :D
How is she a scam?????? Explain.
I never watched you before so wasn't sure what to expect, but you articulated your points very well and I happen to agree with those points. The knee-jerk reaction of firing Mr Damore just did more damage than good, and completely proved his point.
My favourite piece on this topic so far. Perfectly put.
Damn: I actually thought that you were going to give me some faith in feminists. Yet, you completely blow by the fact you yourself stated: “men earn 82 percent of computer science degrees.” STOP right there. That’s all you have to say. No sexism; nothing but facts-yet you go on…, mentioning Nietzsche and how you get the skepticism (meanwhile Nietzsche died over a hundred years ago). Overall, the skepticism comes from folks who don’t bother with the facts.., so why should anyone bother with them?
Well said.....,
she is still pretty attractive
Total MILF!
I'll dat Based Mom ass. Woof.
GILF af
I was hoping her "new" approach included nudity on her part
Christina I came looking for your opinion on the Google memo matter. For some reason your explanation caught me off guard. I do not know why as you are always brilliant!
I like your conciliatory approach with this video.
Good video! Not particularly my viewpoint of the ordeal, but it's such an unbelievably refreshing statement that doesn't polarize and escalate. TBH I clicked in to see how many "feels" and misrepresented facts I'd find and instead my only complaint is Nietzsche got shafted over a dated statement, he was a very brilliant man, just at a time when women socially were viewed as home baby makers. Please keep making videos! We need this instead of the current bigots vs. screechers flooding the internet
Thank you for presenting fair and honest information. It takes an emotionally intelligent person to listen and sanely discuss issues and information that may go against their information and bias.
always love your videos
This is a very good video and great poit of view, well done!
Right now I am at grad school in Germany to become a teacher and this field is crowded with women. Especially on an elementary level. Just because I am the exception does not mean that biology plays probably a huge role there. Why should anyone be offended if that is pointed out?
Here's an idea, breakdown some of the memo's assertions into a survey. That might give people a better understanding of what the debate is really about.
I'm so excited to see you talk at Cal State LA!
Thanks for the calm good-sense
Excellent as always!!
Nuanced and reasonable as always, thanks for your regular videos!
Absolutely love your "as objective as possible" approach. Another great video
Spatial Reasoning is my jam, yo. Highest scoring section every time I take an IQ test.
Christina...thanks so much for your approach to this subject.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I firmly believe that the way to address sexism (and the rest of the isms) is be being gracious and merciful with each other, fostering gentle discussions so that we can all understand each other. I'm convinced that few "sexist" statements are meant to be offensive, but are inartfully uttered in ignorance.
Wow! A voice of reason in all of this insanity.
Great vid Christina!
Truly fantastic summary of the issue. Bottom line, good spirited debate on these issues has to be addressed, not least of which will help us interact and integrate each other into areas of human endeavors with which, for reasons either social or biological, we may not be most comfortable with. This applies to race, culture as much as it applies to gender. As long as there is no true malice in the debate, and as long as the debate is lead in a constructive spirit, it is a debate worth having.
That wasn't what I was thinking. I was thinking "yeah, Dr Sommers! Let 'em have it with both barrels!"
I'm in strong agreement on this. As a philosopher who's taught elementary logic for generations, I too was tempted to dissect the various wrong-headed readings of Damore's reasonable-even-if-wrong memo. But it's too dispiriting to wade into this culture war space. CS has made the point neatly without embarrassing the objectors.
From what I can tell there is good data that shows biological differences between the sexes and good data on bias against women, both on the population level of course. The question that remains is to what extent both of these explain the differences in occupation choice that we observe. This question is very hard to answer because of the correlative nature of the data. My guess is that both play important roles. That's usually how these things play out.
Always awesome.
Again, I think you are right in your assessment. Thanks for being a reasonable mind!
I love this video. It's rare to find anyone emphasizing that there are probably many reasons for different distributions of men and women in different fields, including nature, nurture and sexism. (The same applies for men who want to go into traditionally female fields as well.) Mostly, people like me who think it's some of each feel caught between the crowd that thinks Damore should be tarred and feathered and the crowd that thinks "There's no such thing as sexism! Genetic differences explain everything!" I wholeheartedly agree that Damore should not have been fired for that thoughtful, reasonable memo; it should have just been the beginning of conversations on the topic -- conversations that would include more observations about population-level differences between men and women *and* observations about the effects of bias. We may never arrive at one ultimate "answer" to such a complex issue, but it should be safe for people to talk about it without fearing for their jobs.
If 20% get tech degrees and 20% are working in the tech industry they are perfectly represented. If you want a tech job get a tech degree.
I also listened to your conversation with Bill Kristol, and I'm left with one question...
What is the difference between falling ouside the "norm" as a woman then as a man?
The argument is, that this might be a sensitive topic because "it's hard to be a woman in tech, because it's not the normal".
I am a man that is outside the "normal", and all the interviews I've watched with James suggest he is too... yet men are met with "male tears" and "male previledge" arguments, making the men that isn't über masculine and macho feel like they are not "right".
Of course it's not easy being different... but we do have something we call "normal".
normal is a mathematical term, which can be calculated.
A normal human has 2 legs, 2 arms 1 head, 10 fingers, 10 toes, etc... When looking at all humans each of those is what most people have.
But when you break it down, and looking at everything... how many people have 2 legs and 2 arms and 1 head and 10 fingers, etc... and add in all the other factors, then you are left the hardly any humans being "normal".
Everyone are different in someway. Saying that it's "understandable" that some women felt offended, some even to a degree that they had to take a day off for latte, would it then also be "understandable" if male nurses had to take a day off and feeling insecure, if a female nurse wrote a paper stating facts as to why, it would be impossible and not productive, to try and force 50/50 male/female nurses?
What women at google "experienced" from James's memo, is not something unique, but something men deal with, and have dealt with for decades, if not centuries... The only difference is that men don't get to take a day off work and play the victim in the media when it happens.
Lovely analysis.
The reason less women are interested in tech is not only biological, but also social. But not necessarily by men discouraging women to go into tech. There is also a factor of women discouraging other women implicitly, without realizing it. Both sexes get most social interaction among their same gender. Men interact with men, Women with women. A man interested in tech, in a social group of men is far more likely to be able to find other men to discuss his interest in tech. AS woman interested in tech will find it extremely difficult to finds a group of women in which she will be able to discuss the technical topics that interest her. This discourages women and they end up not bringing it up. It takes a strong personality for anyone to pursue a career in a field that is completely foreign to the social group the person belongs to. A group of young women in the process of finding jobs will more likely discuss, have inside information on and cheer on jobs in typical female occupations (teacher, admin, health care) than about tech jobs. Usually the sole female tech oriented person will receive no peer support to secure the jobs she wants and when acquiring such a job will get a lukewarm 'good-for-you' from her peers. Not because they disprove of her choice, but simply because that world is very foreign to most of these women. This also translates into later stages of life, e.g. a group of moms. Most discussions are dominated by the domestic issues. When asked about the profession of their husbands, very few women have a good idea what their husband do, especially when it is something 'techie'. If they talk about their husbands job, it will never be about the technical aspects of the job. AS female interested in tech will never get the exposure to the tech world in the same way men do, simply because their social world (other women) does not offer them that. If a tech woman wants her interested in tech nurtured, she has to hang out with the 'dudes'.
Thank you I thought when this happened what you would say.
Christina, well done, you are a clear communicator, focusing on facts.
History has shown when people Don't deal with facts, it is usually they who are most adversely effected.
People, allow themselves to be influenced by "political correctness" when they personally don't have a good value system of their own, so they are easily led by others.
Its so ironic in an age where information and the truth is so readily available. But, the fear of social rejection is strong in most.
As an engineer in silicone valley, I have noticed that while there are relatively few women engineers, from my anecdotal experience there seem to be roughly the same number of men and women working as professional recruiters (not counting the very amateurish ones from call centers which tend to be all men--and tend not to know what they are talking about). A good technical recruiter is knowledgeable about tech jobs and requirements, can communicate well, and is friendly and upbeat leaving people with positive vibes. Moreover, I have noticed that more than half of these professional recruiters who are women are significantly more attractive than average. Funny thing is, when I try a web search to see if there are any studies on this, I am buried under an avalanche of results on efforts to recruit more women. So I really am not sure what the percentage of professional recruiters are women, nor if there has been a study confirming that they tend to have more very attractive women than one would expect.
Hi Christina! Please explain Harvey weistein situation through factual feminist point of view! Great work!Thank you!
Every time I hear her talk I think to myself: what a graceful, intelligent, informed lady. Thank you, Mrs. Sommers, for your contributions to civilization.
I agree. Trying to learn and evaluate the cultural and political landscape we find ourselves in. As a father of a beautiful daughter and son and a husband of many years I have been required to step into this milieu to stay relevant to the interests of young adults. There appears to be ever increasing lack of tolerance, compassion and empathy towards our fellow humans. I find it strange that Google would terminate an employee that was requested by HR diversity management to engage in the very thing for which he was terminated. I wish people would take a step back, take a deep breath and understand people’s lives are at stake and the very thing those who cry foul are committing that same foul. I understand that many people have been subjected to treatment less than dignified and respectful. I also understand my love, compassion, and empathy for others is the only way to peace.
I would be interested in your thoughts on his proposed solutions
I might not agree with everything, but I really appreciate your approach. It's a very complex issue, and I liked the way you handled it. You are a model feminist, and I hope more women will follow suit .I also hope more women feel comfortable and encouraged with approaching tech jobs.
Superb as always.
If people are surprised to see a woman at a tech conference it's perfectly reasonable that it is because, as pointed out in this video, it is an unusual sight and not because of misogyny?
The most horrible thing is that Google won the wrongful termination lawsuit that Damore brought against them.
great video
My experience as an ex teacher of Computing in High School and someone who has worked in software development is that Ms Sommers is right ; *overall* women prefer people, men prefer things (apologies if misquoted).
What I found teaching was no basic difference in skills up to about 16 or so in most cases, the point where you seriously start to specialise in subjects, where you decide "this is your thing" rather than taking a wider spread of subjects.
That's the point where if you want to be a programmer, or similar, that you have to commit to spending a lot of time being, well, fairly anti-social, programming a computer, figuring out how things work etc etc.
Girls are definitely *capable* of this intellectually, but they usually don't want to do it.
This showed up as enthusiasm amongst girls for GCSE (14-16 study) Computing but not for AS/A2 (16-18 study) - this is in the UK.
This is why developers are often anti-social or mildly Asperger Syndrome (fits me !) because some aren't particularly sociable ; to some extent we prefer talking to machines than people. It becomes self reinforcing. (Off the top of my head, I think male ASD outnumber female ASD about 4 or 5 to 1). We feel more comfortable with machines so we spend more time with them, which increases the skill level.
That causes the one difference up to 16 ; you get male programming 'whizzkids' who have been spending a lot of their lives keyboard bashing (programming, not playing games). I never came across a female version - though they will exist - they seem to be far less common.
I love your videos!
I'm a simple guy. I see Mrs. Hoff Sommers, I click. Now that I've watched it, I partially agree with the content. If being "seen" as someone's daughter is such a problem for women that they can't fight to _deserve_ recognition, like most guys have to, then yes, Silicon Valley is not a place where women will thrive. There's also this difference between men and women: guys are, in general, tougher (we have been told to walk it off since infancy, and it works, because walking it off is our nature). Someone looking down on you is very seldom reason enough for any boy to quit any endeavour he undertakes. It sucks when it happens, both for boys and girls, it sucks the same. The difference is we keep quiet and try to prove them wrong instead of going crying to the principal or whatever.
I agree there are biological factors that affect inclination towards the subjects and I also agree there are biological factors that affect the individual capacity to deal with the environment they are put in. We should not turn the whole world into safe spaces. We should not fix what is clearly not broken.
If a woman make it into tech, nice, awesome. If she doesn't, we shouldn't make a big deal about why and try to change so she can make it next time. Because then we end up firing people for writing about the subject, and hiring people to meet diversity quotas. Lets move forward fast, leave this petty nonsense behind, and transcend human nature already. And the first step is to stop victimizing one another. Lets take on challenges we can actually win. Lets cure diseases, fix the energy crisis, increase food production, unravel the quantum world. Let us end scarcity, suffering, and death once and for all. Lets travel to the stars and beyond. I want to see all this happen in my lifetime and I want to be a part of it. Stop pointless shit and bickering, let us all aim at the same target, united.
This is the most fair take I have seen on the memo. Thank you, Factual Feminist.
The Slide Rule Club. I died.
Author must have taken your advice, he's on Rubin live and mentioned some of the changes you talked about, he'd be a great guest on your show. Thanks based mama for everything
Thanks
Once in college I received an email "You have been identified as a potential participant of an autism study..." and I started wondering what is the data that led someone to believe I am autistic. Well, the email was sent to all members of Electrical and Computer Engineering department. There is a lot more than just gender that is assumed about engineers. At the same time, if you are looking for a male with autism, there is no better place to find one.
I keep a copy of the memo on my desktop.
Based mom never disappoints!
Fantastic video and now I know about professor Eagly. I should read some of her work. Shouldn't be too hard for a biologist to understand, right?
P.S. Looking Radiant as ever!
I liked the video immensely. I don't know if it will change hearts or minds by itself, but i definitely feel if we all approached the issue as level headed as you do, we'd have won this "culture war" by now.
So true! Bravo!
Not bad, a very calm, discussion of what the problem is and a fair representation of multiple points of view so that everyone can understand each other a little better. Feminism has been an F word to me for a long time and I always associated it with people who were never told no acting unreasonable. But this shows that we can have discussions about woman rights without being pretensions or unreasonable.
Yes, there are things we can do to make the world a better place for women, but not every unbalanced statistic is the result of gender bias, I'd be interested to see these statistics in the fashion industry.
I am happy to see you take this new approach, where it's not just slamming 3rd wave feminism (duely deserved, but, as a feminist yourself, it's nice to see which feminist stances you do actually stand for). I agree that nurture is also important (as I have been witnessing with my own eyes, my 3 year old niece is really into dinosaurs and pirates, yet she is only ever gifted "girly" toys, which she also enjoys, but you can see right there how adults impose their prejudices on children from early on).
I think James Damore would have been wiser to leave out his open criticism of identity politics, to avoid the backlash he's gotten (not that Google was justified, I just mean for his own sake). I have often seen women argue that women need not aspire to imitate men, but rather challenge why the need to act like men in order to succeed in the first place. How is that different from James Damore's own conclusions? Far from stating that women don't belong in tech, he gave suggestions on how to make the field more attractive to them, taking their wants and needs into account.
I understand why people lost it over the "neuroticism" reference, when you consider the rich history of downplaying women as hysterical or overly emotional. However, my understanding is that he was saying the reserach points to women being more prone to anxiety and that in itself really shouldn't be an issue any more than acknowleding men are more prone to depression. Perhaps he could have mentioned this to even the playfield or not mention it at all and avoid the controversy altogether, as I don't think anxiety is what keeps women away from STEM (I myself have anxiety and love reading up on science and skepticism). Still, it should not be taboo to talk about these things.