The Bible and Western Culture - Part 1 - Job and the Problem of Evil
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2020
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Dr. Michael Sugrue earned his BA at the University of Chicago and PhD at Columbia University.
Thought I was watching just another lecture on philosophy by Prof Sugrue. Ended up reevaluating my own heart in regards to my secret resentment towards the Lord in the past few years. To those who can, please do pray for me.
philosophy was the beginning of my journey with Christ and healing religious trauma. May God heal any wounds or jaded feelings you may have ❤
Rest in peace professor. Thank you for spreading the great wisdom and philosophy that is becoming more rare year by year
He died? What a shame. Such a cool dude.
For a breakthrough understanding of the Book of Job, read the novel “Where Do We Go Now, LORD? - Burke.” Advanced. Good.
I'm only just 16... but these lectures, from Kant to Kierkegaard, are amazing and have revived in me an interest in philosophy, thought and simply introspection, which has made me so much of a better and happier person. Thank you Prof!!
My favorite is his lecture on Marcus Aurelius, it’s Pure Artwork.
when i was sixteen i ain't do shit. good on you for educating yourself; god knows it's easier now than it used to be. you live in an era of human history where the answer to any question is (potentially) just one click away. stay humble and stay learning.
@@kellenolsen2767 when I was 16 I was smashing bottles and lighting fires under bridges.
Theological gem @ 16:40: "Satan is not just the tempter; Satan is the image of Promethean futility of humanism in the sense that it never achieves or reaches or longs for, never gestures, at the divine. It's strictly surface, strictly body, strictly alienated from the divine being."
Rock and roll
This is probably the hardest pill to swallow for many attempting the Christian faith.
Ego. Self righteousness; to God no less.
These lectures are wonderful, Michael. It seems your destiny is to float all the boats a little higher !
Like the flood.
It's a testament to the internet's better angels that lectures like these can be found so easily, legally, and for free. It can be a bit difficult to watch the series in order. But I'll gladly sort through given the rewards.
The scope, magnitude and depth of his knowledge is truly amazing. And only about 20 thousand subscrbers? It shocks me.
Try 95! And in only 8 months
Over a hundred now
Slightly over 5x the amount in almost a year of you posting this
106
109
Dr. Sugrue,
Thank you for these brilliant lectures. I have grown greatly in my oratory skills by watching them. Your mannerisms and the way you deliver certain words is efficacious. You're an amazing teacher.
My theology, as a seminary student, is constantly being shaped and transformed. My journey toward truth sometimes takes me to weird, often unexpected places. I am grateful that it's taken me here. I am also grateful for the mystery. If you had to label me as one particular "thing," I'd probably go with, Christian Mystic.
You kinda fit this genre, so maybe that's why I enjoy your take on the world so much (I also listen to the Idea store).
When I first heard you speak about the Judeo-Christian God via lectures like this one I thought, my God, there is hope for theology.
I am an amateur theologian/philosopher and I don't really fit neatly into a particular box. I appreciate your ability to be somewhat of a Christian ninja, that breaks down the boxes of people's certitude, only to build them back up with asking the right questions. Most of all though, I appreciate your ability to open up a good "can of worms."
You give me hope. Hope that you can be smart and still be Christian. Even if you claim to be a poor version of Alyosha, you're doing a damn good job. Thanks, dude.
In Christ,
Joshua Beierschmitt
Melville once wrote that we know of God what oysters know of the sun. He was right, we are as suited to theology as mollusks are to astrophysics. Theology is like pointing a flashlight at the sun so you can see it better.
Try Nietzsche.
@@dr.michaelsugrue Dung Beetles navigate using the Milky Way. Yes we're oysters and theology/science is our hubris but not for these small animals. Think of me as a student raising their hand and saying this. I really enjoy your lectures😘
@@bishaldey5339 I think perhaps the point here is not necessarily that the dung beetle has the capability to do so, but more so does it possess a genuine comprehension. Yes, we know they use polarized light from the moon and a gradient of lightness to darkness provided by the Milky Way, but does the dung beetle understand these actions as the only nocturnal animal to do so. It is asserted that they take snapshots of stars and remember them. Does this mean they understand what they are doing or could they seek to understand what they are doing?
@@dr.michaelsugrueI think you've been having a few health issues. In any case, I now say a rosary for you every day ...my way of thanking you Michael for your kind and tremendous work. I feel there are so many of us out there that are grateful for these lectures, especially those like me that did not have the opportunity to go to university. Thank you again and God bless you Michael.
Listening to this and to your other Keerkergard lecture from a muslim perspective, it resonates perfectly with the same wording we have: "islam" = meaning in arabic you literally "resignate" to god's will.
1. No one truly has a merit in god's view, no matter how righteous they are.
It is only, *only*, by god's grace that we are granted absolution.
2. No one really understands god. In particular, we must quit thinking in the frame of "god is good, therefore only good must spring from every single thing god makes" if we ought to take that leap of faith.
No one can explain sickness, war, death or any of the darker atrocities that some of us have to endure.
The most "correct" way of taking this leap of faith is by resignation ~ islam ~ or maybe there is another wording from our jewish/christian friends.
Thank you again professor, for putting some of your valuable insight into a story that has always puzzled me for years. Thank you sincerely.
God bless you. As Coltrane says in the liner notes to A Love Supreme, "May God help and strengthen all men in every good endeavor". There is a wonderful line from the era of the American Revolution. One of the Adams boys, I forget if it was John or Samuel, said "I am no bigot. I will pray with any man of virtue and piety whatsoever." Inshallah, more will embrace this. Respect.
“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”
Where them audiobooks at?
He mentions that satan is evil because he knows god already knows if Job is true in his faith, but continues on making a wager so he can make Job suffer just because… but, he fails to notice/mention what that says about god.
But this is an all powerful God that it is his perception that we are small insignificant beings. As such, the matters of life and death are of low importance. If Job were to die too or he passed his tests of faith, I'd bet he reunited with all his family and sheep...that's what I'd be thinking if I was God. There is much more of more value to take from this story and lecture then simply that discrepancy.
@@MasalaMan You fall into the same trap as the originaler commenter, the whole point of it is that we CANT reason on the level of God. He is outside of our understanding and exists even outside of our moral code. Devil's advocate is correct here, it does say something about God. It says that His authority trumps any notion that us mortals have of Good and Evil. If we are to believe God created all things we must also believe He created evil and its offspring
If anyone had told me I’d be transfixed by the lectures of a philosophy professor I’d have laughed, yet here I am.
This is my favorite of all Dr. Sugrue's lectures. I keep returning to it. The Book of Job was never of that much interest to me but after this lecture I've become fascinated by it. Love the work Doc.
Carl Jung also wrote a book Answer to Job
My God, in what book?
@@shipaskof8371You're better off reading the commentary of St. Gregory the Great in his Moralia in Job. He does a threefold interpretation of historical, allegorical and moral. It's around 1000 pages though so you need to set aside time for it.
The book of Job is proof that the events that befall us are not always a function of our individual identities but are responses and precursors to processes that effect the entire universe. Sometimes you are a cog in a much larger process.
Sagacity is bestowed on select few. Professor Sugrue you are one of those fortunate few .You are in fact not only professor per excellence , but also the sage of our time. Thank you .
Great lecture! Thanks again
Jung didn’t think Yahweh’s answer was satisfactory either, so he wrote a book called “Answer to Job” which is very compelling.
St. Gregory the Dialogist's Moralia in Job is better.
I really enjoyed Jordan Petersons maps of meaning lectures but I can already tell these are going to be my new favorites to listen to. Can't wait to dive into the rest.
I could listen to this lecture every day. Nothing short of fascinating! Bravo!
Is there any way to get the missing lectures uploaded? I only found lecture 1 of this part of the series... Thank you for uploading these, an honorable and gifted teacher is a gift to the world.
here’s the playlist i’m using
czcams.com/play/PLWUJzq4Xl33kxEesoegdqtT-YvtUxnZ21.html
Love these lectures excellent
Amazing!
AWESOME!
Thank you 🙏🏼
Thanks Sir.
Oh man, I love this topic. I was so excited when I saw the title. Time to watch.
Brilliant lecture. Thank you so much, Sir!
What an incredible education we get from these lectures. Thank you again for posting these!
Dear professor, you have a brilliant mind granted to you by One, Who’s Name you mentioning
Brilliant lecture! Inspiring me illuminating. So much to ponder and take to heart. I look forward to hearing the lecture on Kierkegaard.
His academic cradle is on point.
This man is a friend of wisdom, there is no doubt in my mind.
I wish I had these when I did my divinity class in high school. Thank you Dr Sugrue!
Job is a very different and untypical book from the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible.
Usually in the other books, the prophets warn, and explain God's actions, and explain the rational, and freedom of choice and the results of the choice. All books show that there is a rational and linkage between man's deeds and the results.
Thank you so much
Came back after the whole course until Hegel, Marx, Schopenhauer and Kierkegaard's lecture, i see now another landscape
You are a fantastic educator and I’m eager to learn as much as possible
@@chadradwell2593 Which is useless if you want to watch them sequentially. An ordered playlist would definitely be good.
@@elsoil3387 learn to let God in your inner heart guide you and see what your focus brings your attention to. I understand your frustration, but simply complaining about it does nothing beneficial for anyone. Sometime there is no order just try to string things together in a timely manner and allow your inner guide to decide the rest, it will help you learn to follow what you should be following in the first place.
Here is a playlist for the Bible czcams.com/play/PLYG74ux2mEaOBzXGgF2LxozzYlKNxfZwI.html
I don’t know how I got here but I am so glad that I did. Listening to discussions like this rescued me from the dryness of engineering. This guy is undoubtedly one of the best lecturer in this platform.
this man radiate knowledge
Wow, the treatment of Faith and Reason is genius!!!
Cannot appreciate how much your courses mean to me. I'm reading The Republic now.
Thank you
I'm in love ...with philosophy! Michael is amazing. What a legacy.
Again simply wonderful. The philosophy of resignation in biblical world seems to correspond to the discipline of suffering in Buddhism.
I’m a Muslim, and even albeit our stories of the prophets don’t always perfectly align; for the most part they do, and I immensely benefit & enjoy these lectures. God bless you Micheal !
Because they were redacted later and from all the previous scriptures
God bless you and blessed in God.
Thank you for this lecture! I remember reading the book of Job after HS and hated him, but I didn't remember why and listening your retelling reminded that I still hate this story but still a compelling one.
Read the Testament of Job if you want the full story, it's all the more amazing.
I think that this lecture justified Meister Eckhart's thoughts on prayer, as he argued that prayer is unnecessary because it can be seen as an attempt to manipulate God's will by asking for personal favors. If Job had prayed for the torment to stop, he would still be left questioning the fairness of God's judgment.
once again fantastic lecturer Mr. Sugrue
Powerful
The best biblical sermon I've ever heard 😂 If I had heard this exposition of the bible as a teenager I could've avoided a lot of misery. Mostly misery inflicted by myself and other theocrats 😂😂😂
You Do Not Shake Your Fist At God. 💯❤️🔥
I have heard many sermons on Job! There are such great additional insights i am gleaning from this secular treatment! BTW - the Minister who has by far the most penetrating insight into Job to date is Timothy Keller.
LOL no way would some Protestant would understand Scripture like the Church Fathers. The most comprehensive and penetrating commentary to date on Job is St. Gregory the Dialogist's Moralia on Job where he gives a threefold interpretation of historical, allegorical and moral. It's around 1000 pages long.
WOW...now that's some Twister!!!
These lectures were pivotal in bringing me back to practicing Catholicism. Thank you!
( Episcopalian here also liking them -- tried the one on numerology in Gospel According to John ? )
God is imaginary.
@@CelestialWoodway You seem insecure about this
@@CelestialWoodway He’s not though, He personally revealed Himself to me
@@australopithecusafarensis5386Delusions often look like reality.
Professor, any response to Carl Jung's Answer to Job? His position is that Yaweh is in an unconscious state that allows himself to be hoodwinked by Satan, and that Job represents a pivotal moment for Yaweh in his quest to enter the world as a man.
I read this book in an earlier century but I remember Jung's work as being stimulating but decidedly uneven. I much prefer Mircea Eliade for the history of religion. There are sometimes unexpected insights in Jung, again it is somewhat like the experience of reading Freud. There are in Jung, as with Freud, a whole collection of posited beliefs that range from the improbable to the bizarre which serve as a Praetorian guard for their more fertile and coherent and serious speculations. I have nothing in the way of theological expertise. I believe in God but I'm skeptical of even the possibility of theology, as Job ends up. Melville once wrote that "We know of God what oysters know of the sun" which I believe well said. It is conceivable that mollusks can distinguish between day and night and it is possible for people to see the difference between light and dark, the sacred and the profane, but beyond that minimal, vanishingly small crumb of religious apprehension, human cognitive abilities are as suited to theology as those of mollusks are to astrophysics. "Job" is not a question and so it does not require an "answer". Only a fool thinks he can shuck God's adamantly closed oysters. If memory serves it is chapter 26 where Job puts his hand over his mouth and he finds out that the beginning of wisdom is not fear of the Lord but learning to keep your mouth shut, which is profound wisdom. Jung does not learn the lesson that Job was taught and he attempts instead to match with with YHWH and become the fourth of Job's "friends" who, like Milton, pretended that they knew how to justify God's ways to man, which is blasphemous Greek hybris. YHWH is unique, omniscient, omnipotent, and good, but He does not reveal Himself as such all at once. There are many things said about divinity, but I have never heard of any monotheism treating God as lacking intentions and will, so YHWH's unconscious mental properties (apparently He is defective and lacks self understanding which can be supplied by Jung) seem to me like the round properties of squares, there is nothing to talk about. As Plato pointed out, it makes no sense for a monotheistic god to undergo change. If the Form of the Good is completely Good, then any change is deterioration, but if the Form of the Good is not completely good and needs improvement then is not the Form of the Good. Jung's YHWH sounds much more like the gnostic Demiurge [an imperfect gullible creator outwitted by his own creation in which a Satan vindicates Pelagian self liberation which makes the Incarnation superfluous] than YHWH. God wants nothing because He lacks nothing but God loves what is good and right. A monotheistic God is necessarily a mind, but also necessarily not a mind that needs help from Satan or German psychologists.
Great series, I just finished watching lecture 1 and I can’t seem to find lecture 2. This is the next video on the playlist. Can anyone help?
The videos are first class, thank you for uploading them. Does Dr Surgrue have any other videos about Shakespeare excluding the one or two already uploaded? Would love to hear his analysis of Macbeth, Hamlet, Othello etc.
Live long and prosper
No easy solution
0:55 Polytheism: who is to blame?
One of the Gods
1:54 Harry Truman “The Buck Stops Here.”
2:33 It’s only a Monotheism Problem
3:20 The gap between Man and Divine
5:33 Satan, how?
*The Story of Job*
6:01 Job
7:48 Wealthy man has lots of goats
God’s blessing is long life
8:49 Satan and God talk to each other?
10:22 Go and Test Job
11:25 Sheep killed, Family killed
God, why do you send me these afflictions?
12:15 My thoughts are not Your thoughts
12:40 Mrs Job
14:26 Inflict him with more pain
Job; bears it
Knows his position and God’s place
15:55 Futile Torture
16:38 Strictly Surface
17:42 Job’s Friends
3 Theologians
Miltonic Theologians
Prophets
20:04 Justifying Themselves
Infliction = wickedness
21:42 3
22:04 Liar
Not a Liar
22:38 Family Sin
23:16 Ignorant Sin
23:41 God knows, Humans don’t
25:25 Faith
27:10 Elaiju
Listens listens listens
Self-restraint
28:38 Accept what God sends you
30:11 Internal Pride, Hubris, Self-Satisfaction
32:26 Don’t disagree with God
33:36 Speaking out of the Whirlwind, man put in his place
Out of Moral Chaos
35:50 who do you think you are?
36:57 Providence works, let it
38:00 God has his reasons, beyond all understanding of Man
39:16 God knows, don’t try to justify
40:33 God will give you pleasure or pain, it’s all in his Loving Goodness
41:36 God will let us know if he wants to
He mentions Job’s philosophy is quite different from the Greek philosophy but I’m curious about the similarities between Job and Marcus Aurelius. Seems to me the only difference in their behavior was that one is motivated by faith and the other reason?
"Only"?
1. Faith become virtue in religion
2. God's israel is Yahweh
Grateful ❤
I hope you do a single video of the culmination of your knowledge and your own true personal beliefs in regards to the story of man and it’s relation to its reality
I don't have the stamina anymore, but we have located two 45 minute lectures which recorded in 1992 that form one big lecture. It is a review of the whole Western tradition. I have no idea what my personal beliefs are of interest to anybody, these lectures are not about me. I just try to focus my mind, minimize resistance, and serve as a human superconductor for Something Else.
I hope you finish your book on human civilization.
@@dr.michaelsugrue You - are what has made these lectures.
But I can understand and respect that.
I too try to be a better man for The Energy that fuels this process.
@@dr.michaelsugrue In my humble perspective, it would be interesting to get a glimpse of what you believe through all that you learned. For instance, through your talk about Marcus Aurelius, I try to follow the Stoic way of teaching as best as possible
It’s refreshing to see a clear defense of faith as derivative of the resignation that God, his mind and plans are inscrutable, unknowable, a mystery. This clarification evinces a “virtue” constructed on ignorance.
\very good
Does anyone have the correct order to watch this lecture series in? This lecture is #4, but I can't find 2 or 3 and the playlist I'm watching lists this as the 2nd lecture.
Immense.
Hello, I'm Nic and I want to comment two things real quick that I hope you could shed some of your wisdom on and comment how the book of Job relates to these ideas. If you don't respond I hope you just know that your videos are excellent and a great tool as it is so incredibly interesting. thank you so much for giving us this resource!
While I do like all of the points made from you in the book of Job, I was wonderings how practical the book of Job is through the Christian perspective. While the idea that we simply do not know why Yahweh does what they do is appealing on paper as it does solve a question that we do not know the answer to, I cannot see it being used outside of paper. For example, if someone is going through the stages of grief I can't imagine anyone actually taking solace in the idea that the reason their loved one died was because of the will of God, something that they will never know. It doesn't work as it goes against the idea that God loves you. Someone in a state of mental anguish might think "If he loves you so much, why is he causing me this much pain". And they have a point, why is a God that is clearly so loving causing such pain? While the idea that we do not know why Yahweh does what they do can again be used to argue, it goes against all of the love that you feel from God on a daily basis, and one must ask why is it here in this that God's love is so difficult to explain?
Another comment I have is actually one of my religious' teacher's explanations on why we suffer. It comes from the book "When Bad things happen to Good People" by Harold S. Kushner and it follows a rabbi after his son died at 14 years old of a uncurable disease and to sum up on of his points, he says how God gave humanity free will and humanity does what they want with that free will, whether that is for good or for evil. He also created this world with the blessings and the tragedies of mother nature that came with it. He explains that God is in total control of Humanity, but chooses to not step in as to not go against his previous creations and will. This directly goes against the book of Job's explanation of suffering as God is in complete control throughout the entirety of Job's suffering and I am wondering what you think about this idea?
Sorry for the long response, again thank you so much for your videos, they are amazing and I hope you have a good one!
This is lecture 4 of part 1
I've never heard of this interpretation before -- that Job's sin was pride. Thanks for sharing that. I've always liked Job's wife's remark: "Curse God and die." The woman is tempting him like Eve -- like Eve had been tempted by Satan in the garden. Again it all stems from pride. I don't know the Book well enough to know if Job feels pride or how that is expressed. If Job was just simply recounting -- telling the truth -- that he did not break any laws then he seems to be innocent. I'm curious if Job had been told that pride is a sin. And I'm curious to know if the Devil tried to cheat by paying off Job's wife to say what she did? She is Promethean and full of human pride. Perhaps she is Greek. But I like her remark for her courage in the face of impending ignorance and doom. Women have such a hard time in the OT and she seems to see the apparent injustice of what was happening to Job. But she acts nobly. And what did the Devil win in his bet?
Unless I'm mistaken, the story itself takes time out to display how much Job loved the way he was treated by the town and everyone and even travelers. It goes on at length about it. This may be what Job truly misses the most, and may be the story's intended hint. It plays well in to the conclusion of this video. It's a subtle trap open to those wading deep in the faith. That sense of pride in being above others. Having the notion of approval not only by others but a false notion of our approval by God. Pride is the deadliest sin for a reason, and satan would truly delight most by making a man's own faith in to a sin. Such as he was delighted in bringing Job low through the very same. Given this, it might be contender for one of the most important OT stories, and it's certainly one a frightening number of us struggle with.
Though I think we shouldn't miss the subtle message of hope tucked in. Job stuck through it all the way, once admonished by God directly, and was eventually restored to several times what he had before. That includes an increase in the amount of charity and compassion he was able to show others. Maybe it's presumptuous of me as a sinner too, but sometimes God doesn't give us what we want because he wishes to give us better. Job may have gotten a couple good wacks to the knees with a bat precisely because God knew Job's righteousness could increase and become the kind of genuine that is beyond question or threat by the likes of Satan's games. God will see us through to the end if we do not turn our backs on Him.
But the core of this video's lesson loops back around. I am aware many would still call God cruel for an "ends justify the means" approach (as humans understand such a thing). Yet if we disagree with God's methods, we are merely wrong.
@@KittysDawn I agree that sometimes we don't get what we want and that it is a sign that it wasn't really meant for us. As you say, God knows there are better things in store... or that if we had got what we wanted it would have hurt us. Success can be like that in the sense if you, for example, pine to be a rock star, that life can drag you down into unspeakable drug addiction, stress, temptations, etc. It becomes a hellish existence despite the glamour. But the heart can pine over some of the most wicked and nonsensible things. And it again comes down to pride. So be thankful for the gifts you have and let the trapping fall by the wayside. (that's what I keep telling myself in regard to music)
Ayasee migh do well to read Aesops fable re sour grapes and fox
In fact, those piecing together the Book of Job may have inadvently let in a questioning ,protesting intelligent man who wants his rights. A shining example of man who respects Human Rights. What do you say?
Human rights don't exist.
The Book of Job is like a novel
from 1,000 BCE
Thank God Job never needed a job. That would have been confusing.
If Yeweh is all-knowing,then why does him need to wager with Satan,
Why does Job need to be tested ?
Great question, the book of Job is not meant to be taken as an actual event; as opposed to other books in the bible. Rather it is what is called wisdom literature, its a poem meant to explore complictaed ideas. In this case to explain why bad things happen to good people; the answer being that sometimes in life we have no idea why they happen. And that is ok.
@@nickchavez720 It's definitely not ok if you truly believe there is a loving and omnipotent/omniscient god that exists
That's the takeaway from the whole story, though, isn't it. Yhw isn't actually testing Job, he's punishing him right from the get-go, knowing in advance of his pride and his being presumptuous that he could judge better than god if he deserves a punishment or not.
Realize… there is a breakthrough understanding of the Book of Job, read the novel “Where Do We Go Now, LORD? - Burke.” Advanced and Good.
The begging of wisdom
It’s too bad he doesn’t dwell on the behemoth and leviathan. Does the writer of Job dance around the idea that evil comes from God, directly or indirectly? Most readers scoff at these verses, but I think they are fascinating.
Too bad I can’t ask Dr Sugrue about this. RIP.
I agree with a lot of it, however it's not "deserve" it's what we "need" because Job would not have known his pride, if it were not for the situation, the point of it was to bring the darkness within us into light, there's also symbol of Jesus within the story of Job, which those symbols would not have been shown if this would not happen
What year was this filmed?
NOW I KNOW WHERE MY PHILOSOPHY PROFFESSOR'S AUDIO LECTURES COME FROM!!!!!!
EUREKA!!!!
I sometimes like to think that God comes as the Son to replay Job in a way.
Seamless extemporaneous exposition. No “um” or “uh”. Each of the doctors presentations are profound and perfectly paced. What a teacher.🙌
5:01 “Satan is there! The devil, the tempter! The problem is, before we even get to the story: “what is Satan doing there!?” Why is it that he converses with Yahweh, how is it that Yahweh and Satan seem to be on such good terms! Satan would seem then, not yet to be entirely the personification of evil? A tempter? A seducer? But he somehow seems connected with God!? 😮
(I had to listen to this 10 times, it was so entertaining!)
13:43 "Double or nothing" 😂😂
The only way the narrative “works” is if it concludes that bad things do happen to good people for no justification or reason, and also if “God” and “Devil” are simply choices within Job’s own psyche to determine the remainder of his broken life. The wife’s interpretation of the universe is also correct- why should anyone forgive misfortune so crudely assigned? Admit defeat in your loyalty to what was taken! No shame in that. Curse any “God” that would allow for this. Job’s faith/hope in continued living is a choice, and is seen as the more admirable, “Godly” action despite his circumstances. Maybe the secondary conclusion is that a fully good person will never actively turn to evil actions oneself- the Socratic notion that it is better to suffer evil than commit it. Okay, sure. But deep down we know that it’s not humanly honest to pretend that we don’t all have a breaking point, or that we should simply forgive the wrongs assigned us. The ending is always, always lame- Job should never be content replacing his family with a random new one. Same problem with Jesus-he shouldn’t magically resurrect to fix everything over one weekend, resolve everything perfectly with a happy bounce in his step. Ridiculous. The lesson is that life is necessarily painful, that no tragedies get to be fixed, but that one can live a lilted, mostly defeated life that doesn’t add more evil where a world presents it in abundance. The true “God” moment is remaining innocent when condemned as guilty, rather than join the savage world of cruelty to oneself or others (if it’s even possible). Hence, Job becomes the true God of the story, and God is just another tempting Devil. The question remains: when oppressed by a villain, why submit to being a pushover? Justice still requires the defeat of evil, not merely the acceptance of it. Job as God does the universe no good if the remainder of existence is terrible.. No man is an island, nor should God be one, either
when are these from?
@Harry Moorehouse thx
💯
Job's 4th friend wrote the story.
What about the convening?
Rip ❤️
Actually it is not true that Job at any point displays pride in judging God's treatment of him. His repeated prayer, however insistent and demanding he might appear, is for understanding, to know the reason for his suffering. This is not pride, it is not hubris, it is prayer. 🙏
If we are maggots and worms in the eyes of God, then I ask, why are we supposedly considered his children? It seems he's an abusive father who doesn't feel the need to explain himself.
When it comes to God, I remind myself of this quote from Marcus Aurelius: “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Ever hear of a figure of speech?
So those believe in Yeweh must not be able to be rational and be able to reason,
to be good by himself. They must total servants
And hence the difference between philosophy and religion
This is what occurred to me after listening to this lecture numerous times:
At the end God visits Job and basically says how can you question me, do you know how to make mountains, i do etc etc. meaning that questioning the actions of God is a foolish thing as no human can ever understand God. In other words, be humble, worship me and leave everything else alone because you will never understand it, its foolish and arrogant. Imagine a human trying to understand God. Which leads me to the point I'm trying to make. Doesn't the lessons from Job make both the study of scripture and scripture itself superfluous. Since no one understands anything about God, and to do so is arrogant, when what you are supposed to be doing is just believing and worshiping him, everything else is a distraction. Yet the most religious of people study and more importantly, interpret scripture, and teach others what God wants, yet no one really knows. Since what you are supposed to do is worship him and believe in him, not study him or try to interpret what he wants as that is a distraction and you will never find out anyway and any conclusions you come to just tries to understand something that not understandable. I am probably not explaining myself precisely enough, but hopefully you get the point i'm trying to make.
I get your point friend but the point of religiosity (at least for Christianity) is not to understand God through theology but to know him and connect to him through such conduits. God is inconcevable to us yet we still try to have a relationship with him because he is our creator. Hopefully this perspective helps.
@CloudTheKell Yes that is the point I was making, everything other than a personal relationship with God is just semantics and a distraction. The book of Job has an irony that is lost on most people I talk with.
“Worship me. I bested a big sea serpent that I also made. Did you do that, Job? I don’t think so.”
Yahweh’s such a petulant child in this story.
@@dannyhodorowski5847Your blasphemy is like a pathetic child whining about getting spanked for misbehavior.
The Book of Job: a children's bedtime story--with a PC ending (of course).
I've never seen a man drink water so deliciously.
I am not so sure that jews and catholics or even orthodox Christians would accept this heavily protestant interpretation.
“ I would like to offer another view. One that has been duplicated in various religions and literary works, and that is, the encounter with the greater personality.
The 4 states of the encounter are:
1. A confrontation between the ego, and the greater personality
2. A wounding as a result of the encounter
3. A perseverance through the wounding, and resisting in scrutinizing it
4. A divine revelation, as a result of the perseverance.
This pattern is also depicted in:
Jacob and the Angel of Yahweh
Arjuna and Krishna
Paul and Christ
Faust and Mephistopheles
Nietzsche and Zarathustra
Captain Ahab and Moby Dick
Through questioning god, Job allowed god to see himself. By seeing himself, god was forced to incarnate. What we see throughout these stories is a continuing incarnation of god. So a 3rd option of god being right or wrong, is that god is both. That being said, the redeeming factor of man, is that man has an affect on god, just as god has an affect on man. Man helps push god towards the light. We also see that symbolism in the judeo christian myth of the actual splitting of the god image into good and evil, which is a result of this continuing incarnation.”
You are quoting the introduction to Edward Edinger's book Encounter with the Self. Please make reference to this in your original post, thanks
@@RNCM_Philosophy No
Perennialism 🤡
@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy No
@@KizaWittaker Your arbitrary opinion. Those stories all share different and irreconcilable worldviews.