Does Oberyn poison Tywin?
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- čas přidán 28. 03. 2015
- In Game of Thrones / ASOIAF, was Tywin Lannister being poisoned by Oberyn Martell before he was killed by Tyrion?
This video contains major spoilers for Book 3 / Season 4, and some minor spoilers for Books 4-5. Basically, if you've read Books 1-3 or seen Seasons 1-4, you can watch this video without having anything significant spoiled.
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Images and video from Game of Thrones used here under fair use.
Thanks to María Mariño Costa for the Spanish captions.
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Tywin is a very proud guy, I could see him trying to hide the fact that he is sick. To me it seems like Lannister symbolism. They seem strong and invincible on the outside, but the family in rotting behind closed doors.
Picture, picture smile for the picture pose with your brother wont you be a good sister? Everyone thinks that we're perfect. Please dont let them look through the curtains.
I could see Oberyn using a slow acting poison if he wanted to be out of King's Landing before Tywin is dead. If Tywin Lannister died a week or more after Oberyn left and his death was something like extreme irritable bowel syndrome it's safe to assume nobody would have any strong evidence of foul play.
Would he? Wouldn't he want the realm to know he had his revenge (*justice)?
@@iamcleaver6854 Would Oberyn necessarily want everyone to know? A big part of Doran's struggle and the reason he takes so much time to enact his plans is that as much as he wants revenge, he doesn't want it to be done at the expense of his people, so he doesn't want to risk Dorn getting sucked into conflicts that it can avoid. I think Oberyn wanted the same, so they'd try to execute their revenge a subtle way, or at least keep their public actions legal (like the trial by combat).
It's been a while since I've read the books though, so I could be saying something inaccurate.
@@iamcleaver6854 Contrary to what people say about revenge - it really only matters if the dealer knows revenge has been dealt. I don't think Oberyn much cares what the rumor mill in - say - Oldtown is churning out about Oberyn's hand in Tywin's irritable colon.
@@TheShadowBee It seems to me that you would be correct in your assessment of Oberyn's method for revenge. It was totally "legal" to publicly make a display for revenge with killing the Mountain... But to knock off Tywin would create terrible backlash.
Didn't Ellaria kill Doran because of his slow plodding ways? It makes sense to me that Tywin could be dying of "widow's blood". If he is constipated, he would be drowning in his own internal poisons, which would surely add to his extra stench filled putrefied dead body, all the poisons not able to be purged while alive.
But I haven't read this in awhile either.... should ask GRRM ... somebody?
@@pheresy1367 In the series, in the book Ellaria and Doran are radically different from the series
Whatever the reason is, I love GRRM for making the corpse stink. Tywin seems to care about legacy above anything else (that and Joanna). What better way to ruin his legacy - what he leaves behind - by making his corpse smell so badly it's the talk of the Seven Kingdoms.
His stink alone won't even taint Tywin's reputation. Dying from his own son's hand on the other hand might just do that a bit.
martinez07ful
While taking a shit. That story would be in every household in Westeros in a month and told for a hundred years. It's the greatest death in the series in terms of symbolism.
I think it's a great way to demonstrate how death is the great leveller. There's a weird connection between Tywin and shit, remember when he saves the day at the Battle of the Blackwater, rides into the throne room majestic and triumphant, and his horse takes a massive shit? I was disappoined they left that out the show, but I guess it may have been a bit too "ha ha" in tv format.
mankytoes They left the horse shitting out of the show? I swear I saw it at some point, perhaps it was only deleted scenes or something.
ChakLong S02E10, his horse takes a shit before Joffrey names him Hand of The King
Except that Tyrion *did* note on Tywin looking sick during his trial. I'm pretty convinced that Tywin *was* poisoned, and that Oberyn went to King's Landing to kill two flies in one smack. Or rather, kill one fly and pluck the wings off the other.
By the amount of hints dropped by GRRM I think it’s somewhat clear this was the goal he had in mind, otherwise without the theory in place these all seem like a waste of pages and time for the reader, which isn’t really the style of GRRM. I think everything changed in Oberyn and Doran’s scheme when Oberyn decides to be Tyrion’s champion. This was never planned and as it’s clear Tyrion did this to the shock of everyone. So it makes sense that Oberyn knowing he may die against the mountain can take his revenge even if it kills him. So naturally he’d poison Tywin and possibly to where he’d live for a while to where Oberyn may get the information out of Gregor to indite Tywin, and if not Tywin dies anyways as with Gregor from the poison if Oberyn doesn’t already kill him in combat
Was breakfast with oberyn the last time Tywin ate before oberyns death?
Ser Pounce poisoned Tywin to avenge his father's humans :)
MisterTutor2010 obviously.
MisterTutor2010 o
Ser Pounce is a flerkin
I forgot he was Balerion's kitten, lol
Congrats on 888!
About the whole "doesn't fit Oberyn's style" issue - Imagine how it would work if the fight went as Oberyn planned:
1. Gregor announces Urbi et Orbi that he murdered Elia and her children on the order from Tywin.
2. Oberyn leaves King's Landing and goes to safety of Sunspear.
3. Lannisters live for a while in fear of retribution.
4. Tywin falls ill and dies, let's say, 2 weeks after Oberyn left the capital.
5. Pycelle examines the body and declares that King's Hand had been poisoned by some rare toxin from bravosi lion's ass..
6. Tywin's corpse stinks so badly they can't even hold proper ceremonies for him.
7. Everybody everywhere knows that it's Oberyn's revenge but can't publicly prosecute him out of the fear of Dorne joining the whole "Who else can rise in rebellion" game.
Theory still doesn't hold water but it's pretty cool.
Braavosi lions ass is the worst poison
This theory kind of works well...tyrion is freed, tywin dies, cersei has tyrion killed or exiled. The only two lannisters is a knight who will never forsake his vows and a woman whose officially a baratheon. Lannister goes extinct with an ineffective tommen as king. His incompetence being exploited by the dornish who are planning on putting marcella on the throne.
Also isn't the "poison is not his style" thing exactly what a poisoner would want you to believe?
@@swagdawgswagson4727 I think it depends on the person. While what you suggest may could be possible with other people, it really doesn't fit Oberyn's personality (and I don't believe that GRRM would make a character do something which against his nature). Besides, poison is woman's (or eunuch's) weapon.
Martin Mikeštík
Or... Is that what he wants you to believe?
Loved the comment I read awhile ago:
"Poison is the weapon of women and eunuchs"
Oberyn: what about poisoned weapons?
witcher
For when you want to be sure.
Honestly when people are theorizing about people being killed I usaly go with sir pounce. ITS THE PERFECT PLAN, NO ONE EXPECTS THE CAT!!!!!
A Blind girl can warg a cat !
"A man with no thumbs is a man no one expects" - Littlefinger, Sansa 1 AFFC
It’s Baleryon the cat of the murderd girl of Rheagar, It finnnaly had its veangeance
Some might even say it’s PURRRRRFECT
Only a fool trusts a cat. It is known.
One flaw in your assumptions about Oberyn Martell. He DID use a slow acting poison. The poison he used on the Mountain was purposefully designed to be slow acting and very painful. I remember reading that he even used magic to make sure it lasted.
Most people who who use poison are pragmatic. Oberyn could have been using slow acting posions in order to assure that even if he lost the Mountain, he would have his revenge. If you think about it is perfect plan.
1) If the posion is discovered and Oberyn is alive, Oberyn just took out the one challenger on Tywin's side that could defeat him. He demands a duel. He wins and he is innocent.
2) If the posion is not discovered and Oberyn is alive, his revenge is mostly finished. Doran might be upset about the order. But without Tywin there, it will be easy for Oberyn and his brother to take out the rest of the family and their legacy. Doran will forgive him for seizing an oppurtunity.
3) If the posion is discovered and Oberyn is dead, Doran can blame it all on his rash brother. Tywin is still dead, and will be easy for Doran to mop up.
4) If the posion is not discovered and Oberyn is dead. Again Tywin is dead, and it will be easier for Doran to finish the revenge without Tywin around.
All these ends result in a win for Oberyn and for Doran. Now Doran might have had a more intricate plan that relied on Tywin living, but while Doran shares his goals with his family, he sometimes doesn't share the details. As evidenced by the fact his daughter rebelled against him.
You are right that there is still no evidence and this all could have just been symbolism. But fun of conspiracy theories is that you figure out what fits, not what is necessarily true.
Completely agree with you. In a way, Doran is more vicious than Oberyn. Oberyn wants direct revenge: kill Elia's killers as well as the one who gave the order. But Doran wants to rip from Tywin the one thing Tywin holds dear: his family legacy. And he's very patient about it. Death by a thousand cuts, one could say.
I think the Martells will win in the end. For one, a running theme in the books is that men who are physically weak are still incredibly dangerous: Petyr Baelish, who lost a duel against Brandon Stark but engineered the destruction of his House; Varys, the soft-spoken eunuch who commands a huge spy network; Walder Frey, a bitter old man who helped destroy one of the biggest armies in the North as well as the King in the North. For another, Dornish patience has always won out. After all, of the Seven Kingdoms only Dorne wasn't conquered by Aegon, and even when it had been, the Targaryen victory was brief.
Also Oberyn is not an idiot, he wouldn't want to be around Kings Landing when Tywin dies - remember him thanking Tyrion for getting accused of Joffrey's murder as otherwise he'd get arrested instead. And recall beginning of AFFC where Doran mentions that Oberyn was impatient for revenge as he's leaving. Meaning drop Doran's elaborate plan and go straight at Elia's killer.
And Qyburn is likely on Martell payroll (Preston Jacobs theories) and he dabbles in sorcery. He could be the one to slip long running poison to Tywin. Oberyn just gave the word and wanted to kill the mountain and humilate Tywin in public then leave KL before the venom kicks in. Pragmatical but still brazen, arrogant type of revenge Oberyn would execute.
TC Coltharp Sorry if I misunterstood you, but if I remember correctly the poison Oberyn used on Gregor was Baselisk venom (I think Tyene Sand says it) and it would have kicked in a lot earlier than when Tywin died. I do not belive that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, but again, sorry if I misunderstood your comment.
It's Manticore venom, thickened to make death a long and excruciating experience.
the creepiest thing about the body of Tywin was the grin. How everyone that visited him just kept going "He's smiling... he never smiled." (Since it was said Tywin never smiled).
Damn that is creepy.
I think that’s for Stannis “the king who never smiles”
@@afonsosilvestre7626also Tywin
I think you missed a few important things.
1) Tyrion says that Tywin had constipation in another chapter. He _was_ having symptoms.
_Jorah: "If you ever get my sword, it will be through your bowels."_
_"A sure cure for constipation," said Tyrion. "Just ask my father."_
2) It was a Bowel wound, which are said to give slow deaths, but Tywin dies straight away.
_Sandor: "Pricked him in his bowels, that's the end of him. He'll be a long time dying, though."_
_Tyrion: "Do me a kindness now, and die quickly. I have a ship to catch.” For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him._
3) The smell wasn't rot. He stank straight away.
_The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death._
He also had a bolt tear through his intestine.
Less likely that it was poison and more likely it was caused by bodily fluids and waste being exposed and rotting away the tissue.
Thomas Willard
_Less likely that it was poison_
What's "it"?
redo348
The stink and rapid decomposition.
Only #2 is a valid argument, and that could be chalked up to Tyrion cutting Tywin deeper than the Hound cut that other guy. #1 is a joke, Tyrion couldn't have actually known if Tywin was constipated based on their 1 minute interaction. As for #3, obviously shit smells bad. Means nothing.
H_Steve_H
Firstly, you are assuming that all Tyrion would know would be from their 1 minute interaction. I doubt it.
Secondly, shit smells bad, I agree. It could be nothing. But a "stench"? That seems a bit extreme to me, and this is also how to smell is described throughout Tywin's rotting.
Thirdly, glad you agree about #2. I also think that's the strongest bit of evidence.
I dunno if this has already been mentioned, but in ASOS, during Tyrion's trial, he notices that Tywin has a purple face and doesn't look well. So, therefore, Tywin isn't necessarily fine between the breakfast and his death. Additionally, Martin notes in the beginning of the book that he tries to keep things as chronological as he can, but things often overlap. I don't think the timeframe is a good indicator that he wasn't poisoned. Heck, maybe Varys did it. The only thing that tells me he wasn't poisoned was that Shae was in the bed. Still not sure.
Courtney Linn During Tyrion's trial, Tywin's face goes "so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he'd drunk some poisoned wine as well", but the reason that happens is because Tywin is "too angry to speak" (Tyrion X, ASOS). So I really don't think that actually indicates poisoning, but you're right, it could be a hint, and I regret not mentioning it in the video.
It's true that time is a bit wibbly-wobbly in ASOIAF, but it's pretty clear that a fair bit of time passes in between Tywin's breakfast with Oberyn and Tywin's death, so if Tywin was poisoned, it still seems very strange that we are given no clear indication that Tywin is unwell at any point during this time.
Again, I don't think it's impossible that Tywin was poisoned, but there really isn't any concrete evidence.
Alt Shift X Yeah. Killing Tywin at this stage of game & that way would be sensless. ANd most of all: it would be totally out of Oberyns character. Martin do not write unlogical stories.
Oberyn putting a widows-shit into Tywins wine or tea? ;O its the biggest bullshit I can imagine. He was a warrior, intelligent man wanting true full vegance not some casual silent death of his biggest enemy.
He's also Dorans fierce hidden arm ..not any teenage green too-hot idiot.
Moreover: Martells are not idiots but seasoned players..they for sure were plotting against Lannisters but they're also beware of current powers in the game. They would want to remain safe..and GAIN in case of Tywins death Gain something more than some silly silent vegance. Something to put their House in position of power. 1 more reason to NOT kill Tywin.....yet.(=in time of Joffs wedding)
blackmagd And what if Shireen was involved and she poisened him?
Courtney Linn Poison may have acted long... Long enough to carry a whole plan. There is however another solution: maybe Oberyn poisoned Tywin in case of something bad happens during the trial. He would have sneak an antidote in his drink afterwards.
GhostofNr9 Now why would a child with stone skin and that is somewhere else in the 7 kingdoms poison him? :P
I've always noticed this with theorys and people shoot themdown often cause the chapter timeline doesn't make sense but you forget that GRRM himself says at everybook that the chapters aren't in chronological order.
That may be so for chapters that are set in distant locations, but the chapters mentioned here are all set in King's Landing, and it's pretty clear that they're in chronological order.
Alt Shift X If Oberyn didn't poison Tywin, that raises a massive question. He must have come to King's Landing wanting a trial by combat, because he knew the Lannisters would use the Mountain. But he couldn't have known about Joffrey's murder - that just worked in his favour.
I still think Oberyn must have come to King's Landing with the intention of killing someone, being put on trial, choosing combat and killing the Mountain to prove his "innocence". So who was that someone he intended to kill?
Btw great job as always with this video.
Aye I understand I meant it more in general regards to theories as whole where as this one made sense.
nextpkfr It's possible he could have been attempting to posion tywin against his brother's wish and tyrion getting the blame and fighting the mountain etc but their isn't much evidence to support it.
OppaiMaster420 I don't think Oberyn would have gone against his brother. Whatever he was in King's Landing to do, I expect Doran had planned it.
Note that he didn't need someone else (like Tyrion) to be on trial. He himself could have been arrested for murder, and been his own champion in a trial by combat.
Widows blood is a slow acting poison, its effect is that it shuts down the bowels, making it a good poisen if you want to make it look like it was a natural but suspicious incident (exactly what oberyn wanted) so for a while the only symptoms felt by tywin would have been problems passing stools, but his condition would have slowly worsened as his body becomes unable to clear the natural toxins of metabolism normally removed by excretion eventually he would have become bedridden and died. but that never happens because of tyrion cross bowing him before he gets to that stage.
Indeed, and he was sickly looking at the trial. I believe Tyrion said he was purple looking.
But how does that track with his body post death. If (whatever the Got equivalent for morticians) removed all his organs and cured his flesh with salt and herbs, how is he still rotting, when the poison would be contained in his organs.
@@owenlealprobably wasn’t still contained in his organs after the crossbow to the small intestines lol.
Oberyn deliberately gave Tywin the shits, knowing that over the course of several days spent on the loo he'd be easy pickings for Tyrion. Brilliant.
Only problem is that being constipated means you cant poop. The poison mentioned in the video said it made the bowels or something stop working, ending with the poop( which is waste) staying and clogging inside the body.
@@screamingattrees8422 constipation also puts you on the toilet for long, LONG stretches of time. Just because it’s not coming out, doesn’t mean you can’t feel it trying to. Imagine carrying around a bowling ball in your lower gut.
With regard to the point about widow's blood, it was the only poison listed by Pycelle that was given a description.
Chekhov's Gun: “If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there.”
Mate, you have the most objective ASOIAF theory channel. Most others come up with some ridiculous, overly complicated theories.
john benko jr As much as I love PJ, some of his theories aren't based on objective fact.
PJ's "theories" aren't theories; they are fan-fiction: everybody knows that they cannot be true for a myriad reasons...
You Australian?
Jon Snow comes back as Benjen Stark after he dies the first time!
@@iloverockmusic0303 Me? No, I am Russian.
I heard of a more obscure theory that one of the Tarbeck woman (Rohanne and Cerelle) who Tywin sent to the Silent Sisters was one of the Sisters who attended to his body and messed up the embalming on purpose as revenge. There is very little in the books that points toward or against this, but I think it's a fun idea.
You ignore one key issue here: Oberyn had the poisons. He didn't know Tyrion was going to be on trial, thus giving him the chance to duel Ser Gregor. There is no way any of the Tyrells, much less Littlefinger, would offer that information to a Martell and an outsider to their plans. So we have Oberyn go to King's Landing with crazy magically altered poison..... just to have it? Was there a poison convention? No. He went to poison Tywin, and the other poison was for his own trial by combat after he would be accused of poisoning Tywin and would undoubtedly have to fight against Ser Gregor.
The circumstantial evidence is indeed easy to discount, but Oberyn's preparations for this are not. If you're going to suggest that he just carries around magically enhanced basilisk venom wherever he goes, well then, you're also suggesting that he would have the much more common Widow's Blood with him, which means that this theory is indeed plausible. The Martells have been the most subtle House in Game of Thrones, never implicated in anything except by Varys, who seems to point to Doran Martell when he says "this is no longer a game for two". Even in this, when Oberyn seemed ready to reveal them as a power capable of taking down the most powerful man in the seven Kingdoms, chance managed to hide their activities. The only reason people don't believe this theory is that House Martell is so good at what they do, and what they've been doing presumably since Robert's coronation.
The only two people I would really implicate as seeking to kill Tywin are Varys or Doran/Oberyn. One of them, or perhaps both, were ultimately responsible. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in favor of Varys. The simple fact of the matter is that whether by poison or a crossbow. the two people who are the best schemers in the realm wanted Tywin dead.
Jarret Hoffman I know Tywin is a bad guy, but why did book Varys wants him dead?
Bleed Green It seems that book Varys would want Tywin dead in order to destabilize the capital as he works toward a Targaryen restoration.
It makes sense
These schemers wanted him dead
But even another one like Petyr
Would have wanted it at some point
Thus validating the fact that Tywin would be dead in one’s plan or the other
While I tend to agree with you, there is one moment when Tyrion notices something odd that could be seen as evidence of Tywin being poisoned and not being that fine: "Lord Tywin’s face was so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he’d drunk some poisoned wine as well". I mean, it mostly refers to Tywin's anger in this instance but it could also be a not so subtle way of telling us that he actually could be poisoned.
Yup, and that's actually not the only mention of him looking sickly in the trial chapters.
I think you're completely missing the point of the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" arguments.
The point is not simply that he's on the privy. The point is, he has been there long enough for Shae to fall asleep. And still don't seem close to finish. That's a bloody long trip to the privy, isn't it?
As for the poison, a slow poison would be the style of Oberyn, since he uses one against the Mountain. But that's not all. He wants to discredit Tywin. A long-time constipation and a fecal death would seem adequate.
If the problem is just constipation, a man like Tywin would be able to hide its inconveniance in public. Just because Tyrion don't see any of it doesn't mean the poison is not acting.
And here is the quote by Doran "It was my hope to strip him of all he held most dear before I killed him." But what is it, that Tywin held most dear? The honor, wealth and issue of his family. I don't know exactly what Doran and Oberyn initialy planed to do, but to ridiculise Tywin seems a good thing. And yeah, Doran didn't want Tyrion to kill him, but that's not necessary because he doesn't want Tywin to die yet. In my opinion, the most likely is that Doran didn't want Tywin to die by crossbow. To die by constipation is much more humiliating, and, must of all, would be seen as a "divine punishment" by many people. Just look at what you're saying about the symbolism, and how it subverts his dignity and reputation. Now imagine what it'd have been with a longer constipation.
Although I agree that there is good contradictory evidence for Oberyn as perpetrator, I don't think that Tywin's rotting can be explained away by symbolic meanings. Tywins rotting is clearly unnatural and weird, there is something up there. It has symbolic meaning, but it doesn't fit with GRRM's style for it to not also have a naturalistic cause of some kind. It's also weird that we get an apparently needless description of this poison not long before from Pycelle and a lot of attention is drawn to Tywin's bowels and stench at the time of death.
Perhaps we're being led to assume that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, when in fact someone else did. I have my suspicions, but like the ornate dagger, we may never get a concrete answer.
Jumping from "there must be an explanation for his unnatural decay" to "Obery poisoned him!!!" is a bit of a leap, tho. There are many other, more appropriate explanations.
There's a theory that one of the Silent Sisters who embalmed him was a woman sent to the order by him, and thus botched things on purpose. It fits well with the themes of legacy and appearances - the steps he took to ensure his legacy and hide away imperfections made his rotten legacy visible for all.
Maybe he was ill before. Got some nasty fantasy STI in the years after Joanna's death and was slowly dying of it. When he was dead, focuses of infection - possibly in the lymphatic system, we have records of viruses that accumulate there, maybe some bacteria do too - festered and quickened his decomposition, which fits with the them that Tyrion is him wrought small, but does not hide his appetites.
There are some possible explanations other than poison. And they all fit better.
I feel as though we were sort of cheated in not seeing Cersei discover Tywin dead in his privy. It would have been a great scene for Lena Headley to play.
You forgot two things about Tyrion's chapter in which he kills Tywin that tends to go towards Oberyn poisoning Tywin:
1. Tyrion describes his father's face as the one of someone who's been poisoned
2. Tywin being in the privy matters as he's been there long enough for Shae to be found asleep when Tyrion enters the room. Which could mean constipation
When I read the books, I was always under the impression that the stinking corpse was done by the church as a spite to the Lannisters.
I get a feeling they are going to be at each other's throats soon enough.
A video discussing game of thrones theory with subtitles? Finally my drema some true and I can understand everything.
Thank you, subscribed
Great video explaining how Oberyn didn't poison Tywin. But it seems clear Tywin was poisoned. It seems obvious to me that it was Varys (or one of his agents, possibly Shae) that was poisoning him with widow's blood with the hope of blaming it on Oberyn. This is consistent with the actions Varys takes at the end of ADWD, he needs to maintain instability between the great powers in the realm and killing Tywin goes a long way to that end.
+TheEssentialDrew
I don't see Varys being responsible, he has the perfect weapon to kill Tywin and he delivers it to the target as is... Tyrion.
I think the video is actually mostly right, the deteriation of Tywin's body is more of an editorial of Tywin's sin. His over emphasis on the appearance of his house. Powerful, stately, and wealthy on the outside. And on the inside... it stinks.
I suspect mostly the same. The thing one must consider is, Tyrion would stand little chance against Tywin in hand-to-hand combat; even if Tywin was asleep and Tyrion had a blade, there's significant risk. Counting on Tywin to stay asleep naturally would be foolish. And the idea that Tywin bedded Shae and gave her the necklace seems unlikely at the best of cases.
Finally, it's not in Varys' nature to make sure Tyrion kills Tywin. It has a high chance of succeeding, but far from guaranteed. Varys manipulates, he doesn't often force or act directly.
So it would seem likely that Varys used any of his many options to poison Tywin - he has access to the tower, so he can just poison Tywin's wine. I doubt Shae was directly involved as Tywin would be unlikely to trust her - more likely Varys planted her. Ensuring Tyrion could burn all his bridges, if he took the bait.
Main suspects would be Varys and Littlefinger, with Varys having very clear suspicion. Perhaps Qyburn could be considered, but as it stands, seems to lack all motive etc.
Don't say there's "no evidence" that the poisoning occurred, there is evidence, almost all of it circumstantial, and you disagree with the conclusion, but that doesn't mean there's none
Here's something to keep in mind. The theory of Oberyn using a long term poison is very good since Doran wishes no harm to Myrcella Lannister. He even stops Oberyn's lover from killing her. He said he wants no war so the theory of poisoning Tywin Lannister over time makes perfect sense.
Oberyn: *literally just shows up in kings landing*
POISON FOR EVERYONE!!!!!
Coldhands video?
I don't know why but I've kind of always expected Coldhands would be Benjen.
***** I didn't realise it was a popular theory... or was.
The child of the forest Leaf, who is over 200 years old, mentions that Coldhands was killed "long ago." Since "long ago" is probably a very long time by the reckoning of someone who can live for hundreds of years I doubt that Coldhands is Benjen or any of the other brothers that died during the series.
***** I don't quite trust that. Yes George told his editor it wasn't Benjen when asked, and that document leaked. But I don't think George would feel particularly pressured to tell the truth.
I think Coldhands is the Nights King
I've been watching your videos all morning. I'm near tears when I say thank you. Your videos have shed so much light on the prophecies. Keep it up:)
Christina Tuttle Will do!
Alt Shift X You're like Game Theory but for some reason more interesting lol
Me too
***** Not verbose, not exaggerated, and the voice of "objectivity".
Christina Tuttle tears???
A theory I have heard is that Tywin's corpse smelled so bad because of Rohanne and Cyrelle Tarbeck:
Rohanne and Cyrelle Tarbeck were Ellyn Reyne's two daughter by her second husband, Walderan Tarbeck. After the Reynes and Tarbecks lost the rebellion, most of them were killed, except Rohanne and Cyrelle, who had their tongues ripped out and were forced to join the silent sisters.
Although it would've been one hell of a coincidence, but what would the odds be that the silent sisters who were tasked to take care of Tywin's body would be one or both of the Tarbeck sisters? They could've make it seem like they had properly prepared his body, when in reality, they had actually left his organs in for them to rot?
Tywin did kill their families (and Rohanne's little three-year-old son), rip out their tongues and force them to join a religious order. It could be like a final "screw you" from them to him?
I've never bought the "Tywin was poisoned" theory. Glad you agree. Love your videos, as always!
Why go to king's landing at all? I suspect he went there to kill tywin, and then kill the mountain in the trail by combat. he changed the plan when tyrion needed help, perhaps concerned that the mountain would die and he wouldn't have done it, or he was just to eager to fight.
Also there is TB, this is a slow growing bacteria, that people don't know they have for months, before effecting them. I suspect he was given a slow posion.
Also he poisioned the mountain, during a fight? why? because there was the chance he could lose (which he did) and he wanted to make sure that gregor would certainly die. so we can tell that he was there to kill them no matter what, regardless of whether his head stayed intact or not.
Seems to me that using a slow working poison to make sure tywin died, was perfectly in his m.o.
He couldnt know that Gregor would fight for the Lannisters ._.
he's called tywin's mad dog.
Yes, but there are 7 Knights of the King's Guard.
And many other skilled men in service of the Lannisters.
Serry Yes but none as formidable as the Mountain.
Jaime Lannister (Doran couldnt know this story with the hand before he send Oberyn to KL), Loras Tyrell.
Gregor was also in the Riverlands at this time.
Could you do any theories regarding Benjen Stark? Or Rickon for that matter? It's like they were wiped off the face of Westeros.
Amazing content man! I actually believed this theory until i watched this, cant wait for more of your videos. The amount of research and editing you must have put into this...wow. And that Podrick-comment was just a joke, but if you would actually make the video it would be freaking amazing xD
He left out a few things though. There are multiple mentions of Tywin looking a bit sickly in the Tyrion's trial chapters. There's also Pycelle giving a description for Widow's Blood(the poison that causes bowel problems and eventual death), while neglecting to describe the other poisons he was listing off.
It's not as far-fetched as he makes it out to be.
Thanks for putting out this video!
All the theories you address are very well researched and I like how you look at all the evidence before you come to the conclusion. Definitely one of the best GOT channels I have found!
You have far and away the best videos. Keep pumping them out and keep up the good work.
Love the videos Alt Shift X. Any chance of more on the "Martell Master Plan"? This video just scratches the surface!
Hey, would you ever consider doing anymore prophesy videos - Patchface or HOTU? Loved this video btw :)
A House of the Undying video would be AMAZING , That whole chapter was like getting inside the head of someone on LSD
Yeah I'd like to do Patchface video at some point.
What's there to know about Patchface?
Alt Shift X Yeyyyyyyy. Your videos are great!!
Owen Spoors in the books Patchface's "songs" predict some major events and is overall a creepy ass dude
Like other people already stated: really love your videos, they are from a technical standpoint just beautiful to watch, the text passages are sourced as in a PHD work, the reasoning and questioning of assumptions are great and helpful, and some lines are just hilarious. Saw in the comments that you are thinking about maybe making a patchface video, cannot wait for that to come out.
Great stuff as always. Looking forward to more of your GRRM explainers. Keep up the good work.
I LOVE theese so much, thank you for posting
I love your vids!
Just found your series and wanted to say it's excellent. Delivery and content is spot on!
Watched all of your Thrones content. Please keep making videos!
Love the content. Keep it up.
No bullshit, just informative and VERY well researched vids. Alt Shift X is the shit!
A very well constructed and enjoyable video. Thank you!
Love your videos keep it coming!
Yeah the themes in ASoIaF come through heavily with Tywin's death. The entire series is basically reinforcing the idea that even if you become a powerful, inspiring or intimidating person, you aren't immune from a completely pointless or unassuming death. Basically, Valar Morghulis. The idea that there was intrigue involved in it kind of spoils the irony of the circumstances of his death.
What if he was poisoning Tywin over a long period of time. Maybe he wanted to make him suffer, until finishing him off himself. We can all agree on the fact that Oberyn hated Tywin. Seems reasonable enough. Not saying that he just poisoned him once, and waited for the end. But that he poisoned him consistently, several times. That's probably how I'd do it.
Tywin wants to be in bed with Shae? let's keep him on the shitter for a week.
saymynameb*tch!!! That makes sense. There even was a scene when both of them had a meal together.
Agree 100%. This is exactly what I've been thinking about this theory since I first heard about it, so thanks for summing it all up and pointing out how little sense it makes :)
Thanks for putting in all those quotes. Since I watch the show I'm interrested in the books, but I'm too lazy to start reading them. Your usage of pictures and quotes and arrows and everything make this really well understandable, even for me.
And there is the thing that people think the poison to be widows blood, as mentioned by Pycelle. But- Pycelle is no stranger to detecting poisons, as he knew Jon Arryn was dying from the tears of Lys and took active steps to prevent him getting saved. Also, he knew the poison called widows blood (as he's the one to mention it) and he's made personally responsible by Cersei for the indignities suffered from Tywins corpse. He's also really into team Lannister, Tywin first, but Cersei second. So I would assume that he would be able to detect a poisoning by widows blood (as he even describes the effects) and if he did, why would he not tell Cersei? It would get him back into her good books after all.
Rikka Piko why did pycelle didn’t save job arryn
Ultimate Eintracht Purcell’s (incorrectly) thought the Lannisters killed Aryn so he wanted to cover their behinds. Turns out Littlefinger/Lysa did it in the end
Awesome videos and clean logical explanations......... you are doing good work please keep producing such videos... Subscribing RIGHT NOW! :D
Nice Brothers Karamazov allusion -- interesting parallel.
As an avid reader and watcher, I was excited to see you tackle this one. Nice choice of topic +1
Well maybe you forgot Doran Martell who wants no open fight with Westeros because they might lose. That's the main reason the sand snakes are put in custody after Oberyn dies. So killing him quietly might have been the best option for Doran and Oberyn who (as you noticed) were working close together.
There's a whole bunch of stuff that seems to have been overlooked here, maybe I missed something but I would still have a few questions before throwing this one away completely.
If Tywin wasn't in some way seriously ill, why would Shae have been asleep? Surely if he's been on the toilet so long that she's fallen asleep there's something seriously wrong.
Also Pycelle being the Grand Maester has probably seen hundreds of corpses yet if even his eyes are watering around Tywin's body then something's got to be wrong. A build up of waste and poisons in the body would cause it to decay strangely, and would definitely leave it smelling putrid. Think how many corpses have been through the sept, you'd think people would be used to the smell of dead bodies but for it to be so bad that no one can enter for days it must have been something that they were entirely unused to. I don' think anyone can put this down to an obscure reference to a Russian novel.
As for the timeline issues, Widow's Blood is known to be slow acting, it's possible Tywin had been poisoned but simply did not show it in case it was mistaken for a sign of weakness and we all know what Tywin is like when it comes to appearing weak.
We also know that Doran Martell is a sneaky fella, that line could simply be a red herring to throw the readers and the rash and passionate Arianne off the trail of his real plan, which was of course to send Oberyn to King's Landing to cause Chaos, knowing fine well that the crown is too weak to seek retribution against Dorne.
And yes as much as Oberyn is bloodthirsty and a bit of a show off, he's not entirely stupid, he knows fine well that he can't just run up to Tywin and stick a spear in him. Yes he wanted a public attack on Tywin but that's why we was so bothered about the confession which ended his life.
So while yes there's every chance that this video is correct and I'm just looking into it too much, I still don't think the evidence against the theory outweighs the evidence for it. Please feel free to correct me if I missed anything or got anything wrong :)
PS. I love the channel and all your videos, it's evident that a lot of work has been out into them and they're really well made and easy to understand.
dude i love your videos, they deserve more views, mad props!
Love your videos man! they're awesome. :) Can you make one about the Frey pies? I think people would really find that theory fun and entertaining. Keep up the good work!
What if...and this a big "what if"...Shae was actually one of Oberyn's bastard daughters? Could Shae have been a Sand Snake, living under an assumed name?
Maybe her relationship with Tyrion was always just a ploy so she could get intimately close to Tywin - and poison him.
Might be that that was why Tyrion found him in the privy, the poison was not slow acting, it was quick. She poisoned him while he was in bed with her.
The only evidence I have for this "what if" is that constant reminder in the books that "poison is a woman's weapon".
Plausible?
Jeremy Higgins But wasn't Shae just some random whore that was picked out either by Tyrion or by one of his associates?
This is true, but I wanted to see how far I could stretch the theory crafting. ^_^'
Jeremy Higgins A fine theory. Sadly it can't be true. The only reason I say this is that I'm pretty sure Shae mentions she was abused by her father. Oberyn treats his daughters really well, so Shae couldn't be his. Still, good theory.
She did say that, but if her intention was to get close to a Lanister to kill him, you don't think she'd tell a few lies on the way there?
She did offer her own flesh to two Lanisters, after all. I don't think lying is out of her repertoire.
But as I said before, I doubt my own pet theory. It does seem silly, I just wanted to justify Shae's actions because I liked the character. ^_^
It is nice to think that my silly idea isn't entirely crazy. ^,.,^
I had the impression that Tywin was so rotten because he was there for an absurdly long time because Jamie wouldn't leave him and wouldn't let them take him.
I love your videos and the Martells are my favourite family. Thank you for your work! :)
Great vid as always. Keep em coming.
Great video, well done
Couldn't agree more my lady
Lord Bolton True Warden Of The North
Hello how are you my lord, anything new in winterfell?
Catelyn Tully Ramsey has finally calmed down a bit just temporarily But the north is still conspiring to kill me. So not a lot is new really. But it's good talking to you my lady
Lord Bolton True Warden Of The North
Its good to know, Ramsey can be really problematic. Its a shame that they havent realed HL3 yet, i heard you like ESO do you recomend it to me?
I haven't played it tbh It looks good though I really loved fallout 3, new Vegas and the elder scrolls series.
Any chance you can do a Lady Stoneheart video?
Another great video mate!
Very good and sound points! Nice job!
There's actually a bit more evidence in favor of the poison theory.
During Tyrion's trial by combat, Tywin is described as looking very sickly by Tyrion (I don't have the quote, but it's in chapter 10).
The bathroom thing on its own isn't strong evidence, but there is some indication that this does mean something. When Tyrion enters the room, Shae is asleep. Shae is a prostitute - she would most likely wait up for her customer. Shae being asleep indicates that Tywin has been in the privy for a long time.
It also makes sense in the whole "Martell Master Plan" theory. The Martells wanted Tywin and the Mountain to die - that much is obvious. The perfect plan to take both men out at once would be through Tywin's death. I mean, Oberyn had no idea that Joff was going to bite the dust at his wedding. I doubt that someone as smart and calculating as Oberyn would leave something like that to chance. Oberyn wants to be able to fight the Mountain. It all seems a bit convenient.
The full plan goes like this - Oberyn poisons Tywin and he dies. It's a slow poison so it isn't suspicious. It's not like they have breakfast and Tywin dies there - everyone would pin it on the only Martell in King's Landing. That space would probably get someone else in trouble, so Oberyn becomes their champion and gets to fight the Mountain.
Now the Mountain fight has a bit more to it, too. Oberyn is wickedly smart, but he allows himself to be caught off guard and killed. Cersei sends off the Mountain's skull to Sunspear, but it's very likely that it isn't actually the Mountain. A skull doesn't really prove anything - why didn't they keep his body intact? Why just a skull?
(minor book 5 spoiler)
It's pretty obvious (especially on the show) that the Mountain isn't dead. Robert Strong shows up after Cersei's walk of shame through the city at just the right time so that he can be named as her champion. Now, Oberyn made the Mountain confess during the fight - everyone knows that he's guilty. They send the skull to appease Oberyn's grieving family - imagine what would happen if it was revealed that Cersei lied and denied justice? This would be Cersei's downfall, and it would leave House Lannister almost completely destroyed.
Doran is the ultimate schemer, and Oberyn's death contributed to the Martell plan to take out the man who murdered his sister and the daughter of the man who ordered it. It all fits together if it's true, which it might not be.
More importantly : who poisonned Roose Bolton ? His beloved son Ramsay told that his ennemies did it but which one precisely ? That the biggest mystery in GoT ! that's the video you should make !
Wasn’t he stabbed by Ramsay?
@@-henny-4042 It's joke and yes he was. Since Roose doesn't drink because it dulls his senses.
Ser Galahad the joke went over my head ):
Slick video, great job!
Great vid. As always.
Well, if he did, Tyrion may have unintentionally mercy killed his father, as I doubt any poison used would be the painless or fast kinds
It's rather pointless. You cannot prove it false or true, just like you cannot do so with the theory about leprechauns killing Tywin in revenge for hiding the truth about UFO crashing in Roswell.
Am I the only one that liked Tywin? And Jaimie?
Elias Krieger No, you're not. I didn't really "liked" him, but i think Tywin is one of the most interesting characters in ASOIAF. All of his actions had a big impact on the story. But besides that, i really like Jaime.
Elias Krieger I respected Tywin. I did not really like him, but I respected him. While I hated Jaimie in the first season, I started to like him more and more while the series progressed. Starting with Season 4+5 Jaimie is really cool imo.
I think everybody hated Jaime in the first season ;)
I didn't. I would have likely done the same
Only tiwin
Hey mate, awesome as always. Could you do a video on theories of who cold hands is? Yours are always a lot better than other people doing them I'd be interested in your take. Thanks!
You've made a good case that Oberyn didn't poison Tywin but I'm not convinced GRRM went to that length of stink/color etc for no reason. Poison is a woman's weapon and maybe a Enuch's too..... if Tywin was poisoned, and it wasn't Oberyn, then I'd guess Varys because he was working a a long-term plan with Milpapis to clear the way for the Targaryn restoration, & his little birds easily could have gotten small amounts into Tywin's food/tea over time.
I think you mean mopatis
Do the Merlings. Varys/Illyrio/Biter etc.
Mark Wahlberg I'd like to see more of Thoros of Myr.
I think he is a very interesting character indeed! Not to mention funny!
already a big asoiaf fan and know all the theories and read all the books but i watched all your vids anyway.. good stuff, nicely put together. if you release anymore vids i'll be sure to watch it. subbed
Excellent work, mate
You didn't mention /why/ Oberyn poisoned Tywin (if he did, of course). Part of this theory is that Oberyn wanted a trial in King's Landing, so he could invoke his right to trial by combat - and by that he'd fight and kill Gregor Clegane for Elia and her babies. If you put it that way, is way more plausible theory. Tyrion's trial by combat was unpredictable, so he couldn't count on it, when he was going to KL.
Sorry for my English, it's not my first language, so it's quite possible that I made a lot of mistakes. ;)
Yes he did. Oberyn's motive for killing Tywin was because Tywin gave the Mountain the order to kill Elia and her children at the end of Robert's Rebellion, brought up at minute 1:00.
How about a video exploring the possibility that Young Griff is of Blackfyre decent and not actually Aegon Targaryen....
I recently found your channel and I love it! Do you read for audio books? If not...you should
Awesome video once again!! Please keep them coming!! although I do agree that it is not Oberyn's style to sneakily kill Tywin like that, however Elia was his sister and Tywin was responsible for her murder, do you think Oberyn maybe made an exception just for that time?
He could have been poisoned by Elaria Sand, as misguided vengeance for Oberyn.
It was Reisin YO!
Yeah science, bitch!
Jake Yates Ricin YO. Spelling, bitch!
Make more!! I love it!
Speaking of which, the shoe destroyed the sand snakes who are fantastic characters in the books. They have such unique and intriguing personalities that just work perfectly
It's possible that the poison used might have been focused not on killing him but on sickening him, weakening him. Tywin was a man who was a very proud individual, causing him to become sickened, to damage his appearance and dignity would probably matter alot more than just killing him outright
What if Shae was a sand snake? Or has some connection to Oberyen? A Dornish spy in Tywins war camp who couldn’t get close to the father but found an alternative route with the son. This theory is not my idea, not by a long shot, but it’s beginning to settle into my head-canon.
Brilliant as always. A video on who Coldhands could be would be great. Keep up the good work
I just want to say, all your videos are really fun and informative. I love all the detail you put into them as well :)
I think it'd be good if you did a video on who the Valonqar is. Tyrion? Jaime? Arya? Stannis?
No.
Wing Chun Kung Fu the summary of the video.
great vid, but it would be nice to see a theory proven to be correct for a change
Watch the Gravedigger video, he did.
***** Theory of Gravity. Theory of Evolution. Gravedigger. R+L=J.
***** Are you sure? I don't think theory
Hey, I've been really enjoying your ASOIAF videos. I would love to see one unreavelling the symbolism and mystery of the chaper in ACoK when Daenerys visits the House of the Undying. So many potential prophecies and hints there to wade through, I tihnk it would be really fascinating to look at.
you are good at making these types of videos.. i salute you fam