Who deserves the blame for the Blue Jays' ugly season?
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- Is Blue Jays management to blame for the team they built, or should this season be on the players for their performances? Bryan Hayes joins SC with Jay Onrait to dive deeper into Toronto's issues.
Atkins. If you're not sure watch the HR Derby last night.
Vladimir Beautiful Hernandez Uniform
Atkins probably sign that anthem singer to the team. To fit that . We suck program
The former Jay, Hernandez won it all.
Rogers, not giving AA full control and allowing Shapiro to meddle with everything on the field led to the confusion of pulling berrios when he was dealing in the playoffs
That was like 6 years too late and I hate shatkins
Atkins never should have traded Teoscar to get an under performing middle relief pitcher in Swanson. Teo was a key part of that offense and morale in the clubhouse. The deal to get Varsho, they once again gave up too much to get one player. The bottom line give Atkin's the boot at the end of the season.
In a vacuum, the Teo for Swanson trade was fine. Swanson was excellent to start but they overused him in the first half and I don't understand how a team that relies so much on numbers couldn't see that.
But of course we do not live in a vacuum. They traded Teo, then signed KK to fill the CF spot, and Belt to provide some of that missing power. That... did not work out for us.
In hindsight, keeping Teo and still doing the Varsho trade (meaning we would still lose Moreno and Gurriel) would've been the best path to revamp the OF. Even if Varsho was still as bad at the plate as he is now, we would've had protection for Vladdy at the plate, a power LF bat, and we would've found another reliever from somewhere. Maybe the Jays still flame out in the WC, but at least they'd put up some runs.
Atkins... How do you trade Moreno for Varsho straight up? Not even with Gurriel in the deal. Rather have Kirk clogging up the basepaths the few times he gets on? We've needed a quality left handed bat forever and its never happened. Bellinger would have been great.
The fact this guy hasnt been fired is the most troubling part
Fr Atkins just trade a young promising player and some draft pick like it’s nothing. That’s the same mistake what the jays did when they made that postseason run in 2015-16. Getting guys who were in their 30s and no future.
He saw Varsho's numbers and figured that it was sustainable. Had that been the case, this trade would've been a wash. But Varsho has thus far been a below average hitter. Great D, but he doesn't hit like they thought he would hit, and unless they can unlock that (suggestion: fire Mattingly) we've lost this trade, and it's not close.
I would like to draw a compare and contrast between the Jays and the Baltimore Orioles. Baltimore was headed nowhere fast during the same time period the Jays were declining, 2016 until 2022. They were horrible, and went into rebuild mode, trading away assets for draft picks, establishing a new young core with guys like Rutschman and Henderson to lock down their roster. Toronto had their great prospects too, but they've been inconsistent (Biggio, Guerrero, Bichette, Manoah), and they traded away picks and prospects for cash options leaving their bullpen devoid of any good arms. They traded away stars and bullpen relievers to pick up middling to mediocre players, they let veteran talent walk, or spent big money to attract names like George Springer and Kevin Gausman which did yield results, but they were wiped out by underperformance in key games and regular season series. They parted ways with their young players like Lourdes Gurriel Jr and Gabriel Moreno to snag a player like Daulton Varsho and keep Alejandro Kirk, which was a horrible move. And they got rid of their reliable batter in Teoscar Hernandez which is still baffling, because it completely disrupted the dug out. They've rotated through coaching staff, changed the stadium, and dumped all sorts of players and cash into this team with little to show for it, and worse results each passing season. The only thing that has remained constant throughout has been their corporate ownership under Rogers, and the pathetically inept managing by Atkins and Shapiro. They can point to the lackluster performances by the players this season all they want, but the Blue Jays woes have been around for longer than the assembled roster. There's seemingly no discipline or accountability, so why would the players go out of their way to exceed expectations, and why would the fans side with the front office? Put Click in Atkin's office and let's right the ship - finish the season as their litmus test to see what still could work as the core to build around, and then hit refresh! Put this entire decade of mediocrity in the rearview and press forward.
Bring back Pat Gillick.
Baltimore's rebuild killed their fan base. They have the most young talent in the league, but still middle of the pack in attendance. Also they haven't won anything yet, and there's no guarantee they ever do.
Also you can’t trade for draft picks in the mlb. They just tanked hard for 5 years straight.
@@ronmurray7349Yes. Why, is it scary to you?
All 4 those young guy you mentioned have all gone down hill since then. Especially Manoah and Bichette.
Atkins and Shapiro both got rid of all our good offence teo , gurriel , Moreno , semien . Can you imagine we still had just even teo and gurriel jr ? Gurriel is on pace for 90+ RBIs , teo is going to get 30-40 hr , 100+ RBIs .
They didn't get rid of semien lol
@@LukenixSemien didn’t wanted to play for Toronto anymore.
@@archie15900 that was such a weird signing, usually if you have $18 million worth of belief in a player, you offer him a multi-year contract, at least a 2nd year, I've never seen an $18M flier before; but from Semien's perspective you have to say it worked out, he had a monster year and got the bag
@@archie15900 The man bet on himself and won. Texas was throwing out crazy money that year and he took advantage of that. Happy for the man.
@@archie15900 I do find it weird that Texas has done poorly in 2022 and this season though. Winning it all cures a lot of heartache, of course, but they have sandwiched that win with underachievement.
Bo is in all-out revolt mode.
He’s already gone in his head.
He needs to be traded...useless!! 👎🏽
Bo wants out of Toronto, you can see it in his body language and he's wanted out for a long time
@@henryhathaway5495 I'm not so sure anyone else wants him.
In the end, this 100% Rogers fault. They wanted to make money from the team only, so instead of bringing in someone to work with the now fully seasoned Alex Anthopoulos, they brought in Cleveland cost management experts Shapiro and Atkins, not worrying about the product on the field. So, not shockingly, the Jays have become a Indians/Leafs hybrid that was so predictable, and may not win another world series for at least another generation. Meanwhile, AA has signed the Braves young deep talent to reasonable long term contracts, while the Jays have signed none of them, and they are already starting to leave. There is a good chance they will all leave. This is not how you run a winning franchise, when you have such a strong fan base. But that was known in 2015, and Rogers still did it.
The BlueJays have been brutal to watch. Hoping they can turn it around next year. This year is gone.
Turn it around? How and with what players?? Farm system is brutal. Pitchers all getting older. Free agents shy away from Canada. Looks bleak for next 10 years - sorry to burst your bubble.
@@Mick-zzFor real is going to be a long rebuild like 10-15 years for the jays if they lose Vlad & Bo. Vlad & Bo was opposed to be the best thing for blue jays since 2015-16 but nope that’s backfired.
To that they need many rebound seasons from a lot of players.
@@Mick-zz Hate to say it but I think your right. Only hope is a lot of rebound seasons from a lot of players. I don't see that happening.
The FO Atkins guys over stayed his welcome by 3 years, every year you let him stay on we fall a year behind everyone else
For god sake get rid of Atkins already!
Mark Shapiro is most responsible. He hand picked Ross Atkins, a below average GM, as his general manager. As President & CEO he's responsible for the ENTIRE baseball club. The Blue Jays are not in a good state overall after his 9 years in charge. He needs to go & his staff with him.
Honestly I feel like Atkins and Shapiro have been whipping boys since 2016 when AA led us to our first division title and playoff appearance since 1993 AND THEY LET HIM WALK FOR NOTHING.
National anthem singers' voices should be required to have a range of at least one full octave.
DEI
Mark Shapiro, Ross Atkins, and skipper Schneider take all the blame on this debacle. If it is not the constant whifs in the draft, the bad free agent signings, the mishandling on the contract extensions, the analytics in the playoffs stunt pulled by Atkins.
This team shouldn't be this bad, but I truly believe that the players on this team have quit on Atkins and Schneider. Atkins has to be fired, and Schneider as well.
Bo needs to be traded at the deadline, as well as Bassit, Kuech, Garcia, Manoah traded in the offseason.
So no blame on Bichette or Springer for their sub 700 OPS?
Who wants Manoah
Shapiro may be great at😅 renovations, but that is finished. He was responsible for hiring the misfits that were selected to manage player staffing and coaching. The worse choice was a former Yankee HOF who wrecked the swings of several Jay's who believed a HOF batter could teach them how to hit with a Hall of Fame swing. Some Jays seem to realize the swing changes were not lnstant fixes and went back to their old reliable swing after a month of futility. The Jays manager constantly made bad choices in managing the bullpen that led to blown leads and losses. No lead was safe. The Best receivers sat on the bench and worst receivers were called in to put out a rally, another blown lead and a loss.
The renovations are terrible. The main camera angle has that cheap/fake tiled brick, endless TD logos, the ridiculous c0v1d-spaced theater seating... you can no longer see balls hit into the corners because of the weird walls. Tons of seating is gone in favor of party areas for people who don't care about baseball...
There is no doubt at all that Atkins and Shapiro are THE reasons that the Jays season has gone south.
Of course the players need to perform, and they haven't - for the most part. Massive contracts mean massive expectations. Although Springer and Guerrero have turned their seasons around they have earned the criticisms aimed at them, especially earlier in the season.
However, Atkins has presided over the gutting of the team's offense. He has had some success building a solid pitching Staff - no one can account for this season's injuries - and the team's defense. He has also damaged the culture of the team with his ridiculous betrayal of John Schneider at the end of last season.
Shapiro fired AA, in part because he apparently emptied the cupboards (ie. the minor league system). As things stand now the Jays have one of the worst farm systems in the League. Shapiro owes the fans an explanation for that; that's on him, and on Atkins. Shapiro did a great job of renovating the ballpark, while being at the helm for the roster's demolition.
After nearing a decade of leading the Jays these two men have pretty much squandered what was a very talented and deep team. It's time for wholesale change at the top.
I think the wild card loss x2 affected some players more than others. Bichette seems disinterested staying with the team now. I can tell the passion isn't there like it once was. But he and the others are also at fault for not performing well during the wild card
Havnt watched one full game since that playoffs and didn't change management, aslong these same idiots are running this team I won't watch a game .
Agreed I used to go to at least 2 games every year and watch daily, I haven't watched this team for two years and haven't been to Rogers centre since the Reno.
I really wanna go but I cannot support this team as long as Atkins is running the show
This team is not a below .500 team, they have too many good players. To blame John Schneider and the lack of action to fire him. When you have all the top players sucking all at once and you are looking at AAA for answers something is wrong. Look at Bo he does not care, horrible attitude.
From the first game of the season to the all-star break, something is terribly wrong, i believe it stems from the Berios pitched game (debacle) then the finger pointing afterwards, keep Mattingly, first base coach and possibly pitching coach, and kick to the curb the rest, front office included, if you can get for then get for, why beat a dead horse.
BLAME ~ thats the internet 24/7
How about all the players especially the bullpen that has been a nemisis for the Blue Jays organization for years. How many games where the Jays where winning by 1-3+ runs and the bullpen comes in ,in the late innings and blows the lead - to many to count.
@@robertmacpherson6715 we had the 9th best bullpen last year, def sucks this year though
I won't attend a game until Pete Rose is in the hall of fame (and not as a visitor).
Anyone with half a brain could have looked at their roster at the start of the season and predicted that they would be shit
Imagine what Auto-tune can turn normal people into professional singers nowadays...
Is there such a thing as Auto-Ballplayers.
How about all that big money they pay for players who do not deliver as the reason?..There is no use in blaming managment when they do not stand at the plate and take the pitches....I think that there should be one base salary for everyone and bonuses for those who perform...That will solve all the answers and resoslve all the blame....the only thing standing in the way is the players union who definitely would not agree to this....Pro sports is a joke!!
Yep...
I also saw a clip stating that playing in Canada is tough because you are part of a national fambase... not just a city.
So now you are blaming the fans.
Good God.
Shapiro and Atkins moved a team on the cusp back to a team in total rebuild. The offense declined with the trading of Gurriel,Moreno and Teoscar Hernandez. Bad drafting left the cupboard bare for pitching depth. Bichette and Guerrero are good players not great players hitting in a hitters park. It makes sense to trade them now and maximize on their trade value before they walk at the end of 2025.
Atkins , the players, the drafting and developing crew….
Players, but then management.
Canadian media aren’t allowed to talk bad about jays management, it’s a literal deal they have with mlse who are also in broadcasting
Bias takes
Atkins and Shairpo are Fairweather GMs
Harsh words. I can't say I disagree. Shapiro obviously gives the final approval on major transactions, but he's not talking with the free agents, he's not making deals with other teams. He can guide the team in a direction, but his guy, Atkins, needs to execute... and he just hasn't done the job. And he's shown a willingness to blame anyone but himself for the team's shortcomings, which is not what I want to see in a GM - you're the guy making moves, take some responsibility.
But I'm not letting Shapiro off the hook. His original vision was to build a sustainable winner. Well, that hasn't happened. Players drafted for that prospect pool keep getting traded away, with nothing to show for it.
Hey, watched this guy Hernandez win the homerun derby on Monday. Is this the same guy that Atkins traded for for a star reliever Eric Who.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't remember his name either.
We had a team that blasted HRs and was a high scoring exciting team. Then we changed all that. Look at us now
7:25 that has been Atkins major selling point for his moves that he rostered a young team with lots of control over contracts. Problem is we have seen this roster routinely make fundamental baseball mistakes that cost them games in big situations. Meanwhile they let extremely talented players like Simien and Ray walk so Atkins can dumpster diving looking for more "moneyball" like deals.
Trading Teo and Lourdes not only lost good players but lost the team identity. Atkins is totally responsible for this mess.
Idk about their "identity" but it would sure be nice to have Teo's bat. Vladdy's immaturity was and is still a problem. I think they were hoping some veteran players would help
Could not have agreed more. You got rid of two guys who could hit and add dangerous bats to the lineup. Not to mention sending off a future Hall of fame catcher. What a horrific trade.
@@Michael-pg7rv lol future hall of famer? Might be getting ahead of yourself a little...Moreno still has below 700 OPS. Gurriel a good hitter, not great. Varsho has dissapointed though, despite great defense.
@@paulg6274 ya future hall of famer is heavy but he won a gold glove at 24 years old in his first real season. Alot better than Kirk, that's for sure
Teoscar just won the HR derby and is a star in LA. Where’s Swanson? …nuff said.
Not really relevant, considering Teoscar was a free agent.
@@joeturner9692So…trade an all-star and 2 time silver slugger for a shitty pitcher instead of making him an offer. Oh and lets not forget trading away a young stud catcher you have control over for years AND a pretty good hitting left fielder for Varsho. Now Varsho is a superior fielder but terrible offensively. Varsho was worth no more than Gurriel alone or if they had to have a catcher, Kirk. They wanted a run preventative team and neutered the offense. The renos will only attract fans for so long. This is Edward Rogers fault for hanging on to the 2 Cleveland clowns Shatkins and the entire coaching staff and analytics dept. It all needs to go. A new owner that puts up statues of say…I don’t know…Joe friggin’ Carter instead of Ted Rogers might help too.
@@midnightrambler7716 They could have re-signed Hernandez. Trading him has nothing to do with his current season.
@@joeturner9692Trades only count for the current year they were made?? 🙄 The end result is here and now. Teoscar just won a HR Derby (not that that is all that) is an all-star (again), and is a star for LA. They traded him for Swanson, (who’s not looking all-star bound for the foreseeable future) and is a bust wallowing in AAA.
The fallout from player movements/trades are not always instantaneous. Ask Pittsburgh a few years later if they’d like a do over for when they traded Bautista to Toronto for Robinson Diaz. Encarnacion for Scott Rolen on the downside of his career still looked like a steal for Cincy. It wasn’t a few years later. My point is, nearly everything Shatkins touches turns to shit. I think you’ll find I’m in the majority with that opinion.
@@midnightrambler7716 No but trade value only includes the years a player is controlled. The Jays traded one year of Hernandez. What happens after that is not part of the trade.
Short answer: 1. The bullpen (Romano, Swanson, Mayza) 2. Bichette 3. Gausman 4. The front office
In addition to the horrible trades we have done. We don't even have any good prospects in our farm system. Atkins needs to go
I think it's funny that anyone would think they were going to have a good year. Their roster has gotten progressively worse ever since Semien left . They didn't make any move of significance in the off season. They've only lost fire power for 3 years not gained. To top it off putting all the pressure on the two kids like it's their fault. (Vlad n Bo) The fault is the bosses not the players .
The Grammy's are Forever Tainted!! Awesome Line. Vocals exposed without the computer enhancements... very telling...
Oh yeah - If you can't blame Atkins and Shapiro, who else? The coaching staff? (And I mean Pitching coaches, hitting coaches, offensive coordinators, etc,, not so much Schneider). I think we all know the head-office people will be the absolute last to fall on the sword, as they will double-down to protect their salaries, benefits and positions of power. Schneider may get canned... and at the end of the day my suspicion is that head office is calling way too many day-to-day shots, micromanaging the team, instead of letting Schneider manage. Just how much control does Schneider actually have?
So blame the players, not the managers.
But then states the management is what got them here.
Boys club in TO.
Jay-O Blows
Don Mattingly and the hitting coaches are to blame get rid of them now
I think both will be back next season, Atkins will be assigned to another position, hopefully not Asst to the VP, and they will hire another GM to do the job.
If tgey keep Shapiro then things will stay the same whoever they hire will be his puppet and things will remain the same
Atkins. His first mistake was failing to establish a winning culture when he brought in Charlie Montoyo. He turned that dugout into a playpen.
General Manager & the manager!!!
by not signing chapman is the down fall of the jays ps ok this is only my opinion here goes atkins doent sigh chapman and merritfield so that left holes at third and second and left field so far they have used 9 players at third seems to be a problem bo seems to be upset that chapman was gone as he was helping bo ps teams need good defense and by not having chapman it hurts the starting pitchers era just check it out ps please note chapman is hitting cleanup with san fran and he is a bad hitter wake up he is out hitting the whole jays team except vlady ps hitting ok i would say the problem partley is to many rookies but howitz has been a surprise ps the last thing i will say they did spend a lot of money on adding a lot of bars ps i could add some more but i dont want to write a book
"The Analytics".
The analytics makes the lineup, the analytics change the pitchers, the analytics recall the prospects, the analytics draft the prospects, the analytics hire the manager, etc
But nobody wants to talk about it. Ed Rogers and Co. are paying you to keep it the way it is.
SMH
But Anal-ytics cannot judge the intangibles.
Three straight seasons with a losing record against +0.500 teams is not a good look. The AAA team is weak on pitching, which shouldn't be a surprising given the fact they put draft pick resources into hitters, and as a result blew the budget on pitching. This team needs to admit what obviously needs to be done.
Deserves the blame !!
Who has earned to be responsibility for the blame!
Lets start with Rogers 1st
They have watched silently while the organization has been worse than the 18 wheeler off the CN Tower.
Seconds Sharpiro and his 2nd in charge Atkins.
Horrible Terrible Trades! Over paying players that haven't obtained or accomplished anything! And paying them based on a season of over expectations!
They have had nine years of cleaning up the supposive mess left by Athopolos!!!
Emptied distoried the farm system from A to Triple A
Traded away players that were not give a chance to play like the highly talented catcher for who and what!
3rd the highly paid over rated players which sounds familiar who cant or not able to play fundamental baseball !! Not mature enough to play fundamental baseball .
Base running errors swinging at BAD pitches running through hold stop signs !!!
4th
Schinder putting players in a line up that haven't exactly played up to expectations or being paid too!!
Not using his bench properly!
Keeping players out of the lineup when they were playing a hell of a lot better than those think they were entitled to or earned their spot!!!
After building losing teams for so long there is a need for new voices and ideas.
Plenty of blame to go around. First the ownership of the Rogers that won't spend the money to win. The GM and his horrible deals, terrible manager and just bad play from the players especially the horrible season from Bichette. Guerrero to who seems to not be able to hit home runs anymore, He has lost his power. Lousy pitching, Lousy bullpen, Lousy hitting, average fielding and the list goes on. Time for a rebuild. And here I thought a a few years ago we had a bright future with all these young kids coming up. I was wrong.
Jays have a top payroll (above luxury tax penalty) yet you start by saying they won't spend? Go back to your Leafs please.
@@olliverklozov2789 Then they are not spending the money on the right players. They should have kept Chapman and Hernandez and Simein.
Miss AA
The fans for paying for this “A” caliber ball.
Remember when the Jays had a competent GM with Anthopoulos? He saw the writing on the wall and bailed as soon as Shapiro was hired. Oh well. Glad he got his championship with the Braves. The summer/fall of 2015 was pretty awesome, though.
Have i not seen this same story 3 or 4 times this year????
God this is terrible.
Didn't watch the Blue Jays for 20 years.... tried the last couple of years.
I am done with baseball.
The players didn't do their job well. Atkins, Shapiro & Schnieder let the players try to figure things out in the Major league. At least 4 of them should have been sent to the minor leagues to figure things out. What did former Blue Jay, Josh Donaldson say? "This is NOT the try league! This is the get it done league". The organization failed the players by relying on there previous accomplishments....WHAT HAPPENED TO "What have you done for me lately?" How long of a leash are they going to give newer players at the Major league level if they're making a joke of the game? Schnieder did what he could with the players he was told to use.
Ever since George went on the juice he's been on fire
Te'o. Gurriel gritchick. Pillar Da. D don't worry Vladimir leaving taking Bishit with him
The Coach and GM! are to blame even worst they are going to dismantle the Jays. Their going to ship out all the good players and stick the Jays with a crap team for the next ten years. Watch and see!
Both management and all the players.
The buck stops at the top, i.e. President Mark Shapiro.
The GM he makes this so called team embarrassment.
Don Mattingly and the hitting coaches need to go now they are to blame
its Atkins shaps and mattingly ...they stink !!!!
It seems that all Toronto sports teams need all new management and a change of mindset of the team is making money and attracting fans even if we put out a crapy product. A boycott would wake them up. I gave up on Toronto teams.
Look how fast the Raptors have fallen since that championship. And the Leafs just cannot win in the playoffs.
Better watch it guys or the players won't invite you to their charity golf tournament.
When everyone is playing below average at their position, that is systemic. It is a problem with philosophy.
Ross Atkins
Pretty pathetic to laugh at the expense of a young woman who admitted she was suffering from alcohol addiction and checked herself into rehab...have some self-respect gentlemen.
Both gm and coach gotta go , try and rebuild
The whole province should bear the blame. We allow monopolies.theres no competition. Leafs too. They don’t care, the money keeps on rolling in.
Shapiro and Atkins.
I’m a Toronto sports fan though we have the biggest loser sports city, lol.
Hey at least the Argos win their fare share of Grey Cups.
Atkins. Period. Nine years and he’s made the team worse.
Players
Atkins needs to be gone at the very least.
Time to move on from Guerrero and Bichette as a franchise cornerstone duo.
Keep one. I would keep Vladdy and move Bichette. We need a Pat Gillick type of trade from the 90s. Like talent for talent.
Try to move Springer if you can.
As long as Shapiro is running the Jays Akins and Schneider will still be around
Until Rogers wakes up and gets rid of Shapiro this team is going nowhere
Same as the Leafs they don't have to win, as long as they are making money.
So you don't think they want to win? Ok...🤪
that anthem singer has NEVER been told in her life that she cant sing, im sure she has a bedroom full of 8th place participation trophies..yikes
Shapiro and Aikens
Not good enough.
I just read that she was apparently drunk 😮
Atkins. 100%. He's a terrible GM.
Useless John the manager
Trade janson and bo
Shapiro and Atkins need to go. Were supposed to fix our minor league system, and have failed miserably.
Al judge Soto New York 💪
Shapiro and Jon Schneider
Blaming Schneider for this mess is tantamount to blaming a painter for the reason the leaning tower of Pisa leans. Schneider was handed an absolute mess of a lineup. What's he supposed to do with the lineup he has? Schneider has nothing to do with the Jays horrific drafting success. Schneider had nothing to do with signings or trades that made this team worse and not better. Schneider has nothing to do with why Anthopolous left. This mess is on Rogers, Shapiro and Atkins. It's not on Schneider, it's not on Guerrero Jr. and it's not on the bat boy either. This is terrible management from the top down. When the top messes up, you see years and years of crap...and that's what we've seen.
@@mccullochmike Wow you are sure a ripper. Maybe a chill pill might help you.
You sound like you’d bake a pie if someone asked you to solve for Pi.
I blame feminism.
The singer must’ve had jet lag, er…a cold, er…didn’t feel well, er…prepped too much.
Stopped watching/supporting the Jays and woke MLB
First it was the Chicago Cubs with the Goat Curse.
And now its the Jays with the Bass Curse.
@@archie15900 You sound overly vaxxed 😁
@@archie15900 Enjoy your Bass Curse. Its here for awhile.
TSN is garbage.
TSN: Toronto Sports Network