Policing and Racism: Two Sides of the Story with Roland Fryer
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- In this miniclip Roland and I talk about Policing and Racism, the progress that America has made in the fight with racism, whether race consciousness can ever be a good thing and much more.
The full episode “Overcoming the Odds” with Roland Fryer is now available to all via - bit.ly/3MqOrgI
Enjoy!
#Conversationswithcoleman #Colemanhughes #RolandFryer #Racism #Policing #Race #Police #uspolice
Coleman Hughes is one of very very few people on CZcams who can cause me to look at issues differently. I trust the man to be honest. I am not concerned in the back of my mind that his videos are designed to garner more clicks or to push a certain narrative. This country would be in a much better place if more so-called journalists took the same approach when presenting information.
@James Wolf Absolutely. I’m a journalism professor who worked for 25 years in newsrooms and we often fall WAY short of industry standards of fairness and balance, precisely because we’re driven by an obsession with ratings and clicks. Me and my colleagues can learn a lot from people like Coleman.
He's is very sam Harris'esq. I'm a fan
If you do fair reporting, the clicks will follow as a result. Treat your audience with respect and you will get respect and revenue. Treat your audience as a revenue generator and you lose legitimacy and revenue.
@@Sal3600Sam Harris is a deranged lefty whose facts are opinions.
The most important sentence in the entire interview: “any reform that you do TO the police instead of WITH the police - I’m very sceptical of.“ This is brilliant, talking about how both sides of an argument can work towards a solution that improves relationships between the police and the community.
I don’t think it’s legitimate to liken police to bank robbers. A tiny minority of police have the proclivities of bank robbers. All bank robbers have the proclivities of bank robbers.
@@unbroken7189 I don’t have to time to read that book so I’m just going to have to accept the possibility that the author is an expert in police utopias and that the book can be summarised accurately in one sentence.
@@unbroken7189 Just like ‘everybody generalises’ eh?
If only, if only people could just see the world the way you do.
I am reading a book. You do care how people look at the world. Yes, some schoolchildren can read books.
Roland Fryer is a national treasure. Glad he is back, contributing to public discourse.
Since I have heard his Bari Weiss interview I saw some other conversations and I absolutely agree. He’s based and bold and on top of that he’s cool.
you wish
@@TeamDiezinelliyou wishing also
@@runoz2839 what are you trying to say? That we wish he’s contributing to the very one sided public discourse about police in the US? That we wish he is bold? Or you might mean I shouldn’t think he’s cool?
I’m not a native english speaker, but I kind of have the feeling you just want to stear up the comment section without any flesh on the bone whatsoever….
@@TeamDiezinelli what makes ya think that, when it said?
I could listen to Roland Fryer all day. He is the definition of technical integrity.
technical sexual harrasser & deflector
What an informative conversation. Every community leader should know this.
Been aware of Dr Fryer's work for a few years, great to hear him talk about it. Respect.
Wish everyone could hear this information.
Roland is one of my favourite intellectuals. A great body of work. Such a shame he’s been the victim of a witch hunt.
My father recently retired from Seattle Police and few years ago after spending 37 years on the force and to hear Roland “get it” brought tears to my eyes. The reason why my father decide to hang it up was because there is no sense of community. I remember going on beats with my dad as a kid and everyone in the neighborhood knew who he was and there was a sense of respect from both sides which seems to Ben lost over the years as city populations become more dense. Community policing is so important in this regard and I pray cities find a way to rebuild that trust over time.
This is a great clip as a retired NYPD officer these men give hope to the community and cops on the beat
Excellent guest and very enlightening conversation. I wasn't aware of the increased use of low-level force attributed to bias. Thanks to Mr. Fryer and Coleman as usual.
I respect Fryer. You have to like someone who chose to live up to his grandmother's expectation that he be honest over going along with black academics with power. Now he knows about the injustice those people can mete out, and I want to listen when he's ready to speak about that!
This video needs 100× more views...I learned more about root causes of cop violence here than from major media sources.
Being a police officer seems extremely stressful. I'd bet we would get better results if police were better supported from a mental health perspective considering they're exposed to some pretty heinous things on the regular. That type of exposure tends to desensitize people via psychological trauma which only leads to much worse outcomes.
Money, money, money. It all costs money and we have people wanting to defund them.
18000 police depts. Says a lot about the nation, doesn't it?
@@mrpipps90 yeah, it's certainly not a priority and it would probably take a herculean effort to get the bureaucrats to spend the money on therapy for officers instead of unused firearms.
@@aaronaragon7838 I'm not really sure, there are 300+ million people in the USA, 18,000 jurisdictions doesn't sound unreasonable.
I don't know. We can't police ourselves I guess.
I love it when people can separate different causes from different consequences. Then I appreciated how he clarified that knowing the job of policemen is not to excuse bad behavior: it doesn't excuse, but it helps explain it.
Coleman and Roland, you are both inspiring and heroic for your discourse and exposure of the facts. I can only hope your ideas will be encouraged and adopted by political leaders towards building a positive, unified future.
Love the balance and thoughtfulness of the conversation.
Is there data on the different kinds of reactions different people have when approached by police? Corresponding those reactions with the actions of police would be very interesting data, but I have yet to see anyone even talk about it.
There should be multiple variables looked at including height/weight, sex, use of profanity, grades the level of resistance (verbal to physical), history of arrests (misdemeanor vs felony), level of tint of car, response time to lower windows (prior to cop approaching, upon cop arriving, after request to put down windows (including number of requests), hands in plain sight vs out of sight, grade initial response of suspect (courteous, neutral, irritable, aggressive, combative).
Then you have to control for rate of crime in area
I'm sure there are more variables to control for.
Black people tend to far more respectful to Police Officers than whites. We are taught to be extremely careful. But its typically the quick use of hands by cops that then brings out a reaction. Blacks have a great fear of going to jail & court, especially if there is no wrong doing. We feel we will get unfairly sentenced. At the point of being handled we may pull away quicker than whites. Loss of your job and all kinds of financial concerns come to mind.
@@TrillEverything Cool. That's the kind of thing that needs to be collected as cold hard data (body cams?) to clearly show where the problem mostly lies in the escalation of the situations.
@@rossp4863 The data is clear. And white people still see black people as "the other" in this country. It began during slavery due to a weird type of symbiotic relationship, especially between the men. And in most cases, if white men cannot just use black men for some type of commerce, even the Prison/ Military Industrial Complexes, then they rather not have them around "in groups" and this is what led to Jim Crow. In many ways, Jim Crow was far more devastating for black people. And the after shock of Jim Crow lasted until about 1998 or so. Thus, even today, once say 10 or 20 black males, even grown business class, black males are in a group, it tends to make whites, especially white males feel a bit uncomfortable. White cops live in the world, hence are very nervous while they work. Additionally, the initial verbal encounter is "typically" very very harsh.
@@TrillEverything Oh there is data on the different kinds of reactions different people have when approached by police? Wow I haven't seen it talked about. Was that data collected the same way the data on the police was collected? It's very important that all that data is used together, otherwise the conclusion that it's the police who are solely at fault in this matter (as it seems to be said now) is an unreasonable assumption.
Thanks for this conversation and bringing this doctor into our awareness
This is brilliantly informative, and SO necessary right now. Thank you both for your important work!
Coleman you are so brave and rational. Really appreciate this conversation. Not convoluted at all and you asked great follow up questions.
Good reearch and well explained, nice to have you both reflecting clear and providing reliable data to see the state of the problem clearlier.
Great interview. Thanks.
This is REALLY good! Thank you!
Great conversation
I just found this. What a treasure.
We need to put Roland Fryer in charge of more things. Secretary of education or what have you
Thanks for this.
Enjoyed this discussion. If I meet anyone who wants to be a policeman/woman the first thing I would tell them is to go watch the TV series Southland which was about cops in Los Angeles and what was great about the show was there wasn't some arch criminal to outsmart. It was just the mundane basic common things that a cop encounters on a daily basis and it really showed how challenging that job can be.
Nice analysis Mr Hughes
Thank you
"It's Bayesian". Clearly his priors are different from mine. But loong before I really noticed the color of my skin, I identified as a nerd. And I still feel much more kinship with Roland than with most people I happen to share skin color with.
"..... you're a nerd! People don't like you anyway!" Now, here, I have the same priors.
COLEMAN if you have not been on a ride a long I encourage you to very much. Get out on the street and see first hand how the police ineract with blacks. That and some force on force training. Witness yourself how fast things can go sideways. Also the issue of profiling is not really profiling it is experience in seeing identifiers of criminal activity. With gentleman like you and Roland bringing factual information to the black community helps in massive ways. I encourage anyone that wants to help bridge the gap to get that experience before taking a stance on defunding or abolishing the police. I have enjoyed your videos and Rolands very much. Mainly because you guys have put true effort in trying to understand the division and make change. I THANK YOU VERY MUCH. Keep up the great work!
It's Bayesian.....clear nerd indicator! Great work and thanks for breaking it down.
I understand the intertwined nature of it all, but also understanding that an immense part of popular black culture (at least the part that is seen by the general public) is “F the police” “kill cops” etc, etc. Maybe a balanced approach would be, police officers can work to minimize the lower level uses of force, and the Black community can work to reduce the violent rhetoric against police in their popular art.
Great conversation!!
Appreciate the insight that the lower level uses of force are subconsciously behind the rage of police shooting, even when the shootings are justified.
I have a couple of related questions over something Prof. Fryer said that seems unclear: at 03:55, he says that according to the police, when there is no contraband, etc., "black people are still 25% more likely to have force used against them."
1. Is that "25%" more likely than . . . white people? -- or _all non-black_ people? -- or relative to some other group(s)?
2. Is that "25%" a total number or per-capita?
First, I want to emphasize that I am taking Prof. Fryer's words in good-faith (I have a lot of respect for him and his work), but I ask because the "black people are X% more likely..." is sometimes a tactic used by people to demonstrate a disparity between black and white outcomes, while intentionally disregarding _other_ disparities (the fallacy of the undistributed middle). For example, the claim that black people are X% more likely to be arrested than white people ignores the fact that white Americans are about 3 times more likely, per-capita, to be arrested than *Asian* Americans. If one focused on that latter ratio, one could infer that the criminal justice system was somehow biased against white people, in favor of Asians (which would be nonsensical), so understanding who the data sets contain is essential to knowing if an apparent disparity is what it appears to be.
Finally, I wish that it was possible to see the methodology, and in particular the way the questions were parsed regarding things like "compliance" in interactions. It seems to me that if the question that cops had to answer was written like "Was the subject (of a pull-over) compliant? (Yes___ / No___)", that would fall short of helping us understand the dynamics around the interaction. So much of what law enforcement interactions include are things like uncooperative body language, contemptuous facial expression, defiant tone of voice, evasive answers, etc. I recognize that such things are difficult to quantify, but if in fact there were significant differences between such things between different ethnic groups when interacting with cops, I could easily see that accounting for a 25% disparity in the use of low-level force, since cops respond to such things by asserting dominance.
"When everything else fails, men turn to reason." Abba Eban.
Cheers to everyone who rises above polarized political echo chambers on either side and actually takes the time to investigate an issue. We don't have to agree on conclusions but lets agree at a minimum that finding a truth should always be valued over being vindicated as being right.
There are usually multiple variables that effect outcomes. We have to take a deeper look as to why lower level force is being used. Is race the only factor? Is cooperation or resistance an issue. These things are very complicated when you make direct correlations to things without full context.
I’d love for you to speak with fd signifier or T1J. Unfortunately can’t see it happening.
I love Fryer and how he is fighting against the "narrative." I think his next study should be on how much of this "everyday harassment" has to do with race and how much of it has to do the prevalence of crime in certain communities. Is the harassment predominantly done by white officers or are black police officers just as likely to view everyone as suspect in certain parts of town? It's easy to ascribe everything to race, but the actual cause of the issue might be much more complex than simple skin color.
So which came first in the cause of low level force, the attitude and disrespect from the suspect or the police using excessive force? In other words who started it?
I remember Triggernometry did an interview with a retired British police officer, Chris Donaldson, who had worked every part of the job from beat cop to administration to training that brought up some very interesting points about police work that I'd never heard anyone talk about before.(czcams.com/video/Di91e8laIh8/video.html) Granted Donaldson is speaking from the point of view of a British police officer and not an American police officer. I'd like to hear from someone like Chris Donaldson, but who is a retired U.S. police officer who's walked a beat, been in administration, and trained other officers. The issue of private gun-ownership in the U.S. vs. Britain is one significant difference that stands out in my mind as to why officers in America would be more worried about anyone they pull over being more likely to be armed and a threat to the officer's life. There's also the issue number of hours of training that U.S. police receive in comparison to other county's officers.
and on top oif that you know who's the group with most guns and most gun violence.
which is totally different to europe, where there are no
a) guns to fear
b) groups that kills (among themselves) more than average
offcourse, situation is a bit worse in uk than on "continent" (no guns, but some groups with some vioelnce) but surely more simillar to rest of europe than usa.
BLM wants people to be more compassionate to black people and that's fine. Why does it takes clips like this for people to wonder what it's like from the cop's perspective? Cops are just people, like you and I, and also deserve compassion. Thanks to both Coleman and Dr. Fryer for having the courage to talk about this.
Is there any patterns of reasoning for the lower level uses of force? You can legally be compliant while being different levels of threat, for example.
Thomas Sowell's explanation for group wise discrimination is a possible explanation. That is, cops judge individuals based on their biases about the racial group. Also, cops behave this way because they can get away with it, poor and marginalized groups have limited means of recourse.
@@drandrewm Or certain groups have different actions (disproportionally) and those action have a justified bias. Like Wearing a hoodie covering your face and body at a gas station with your hands in your pockets. And in 2022 black people in the US seem to have a better response than any other race with police injustices.
@@drandrewm Something uncomfortable to look at, but may be necessary if we're to get to the bottom of this, is the possibility that police ARE racist, but that it's due to lived, learned experience. That is to say that the tapestry of their memory is painted in such a way that the most difficult, belligerent and violent people they've ever dealt with were all black. If blackness was the most immediate identifying factor of your most stressful and frightening experiences as a police officer, you're going to be a learned racist.
What's more, you can't "educate" or "support" or "train" that away. You can *tell me* that not all pitbulls are dangerous, but that hardly matters to me if 80% of the times I've been bitten by dogs, it was pitbulls on the other end of the bite. The data around this would be, however, a chicken and egg scenario where we try to find out how many battery attempts and successes police deal with and the demographics of said battery. Some will say that the attacks are retaliatory against racist police and some will say that it's evidence of a culture more likely to commit relatively unprovoked violence on police. To make my bias known, I don't want either answer to be true.
@@virtualalias You and I agree...group-wise discrimination is racism!
Is there any study of a dominantly black Police force having the same outcome, Involving lower level harassment.
We could go to a country which is overwhelmingly African (or any other non-White country) for a point of comparison.
The problem comes down to a failure of checks and balances. Currently the most effective check is press. This is currently under attack with cencorship and "misinformation bureaus." Police (executive) are supposed to be held in check by the laws (legislative) they enforce, and the courts (judicial) that interpret them. Instead the laws (legislative) are purposefully written vaguely to prevent recourse. That's why things like disorderly conduct are so widely used. There seems to be no seperation between law enforcement (executive) and the courts (judicial). When an incident occurs with law enforcement (executive), you can report it to law enforcement (executive), then it's investigated by law enforcement (executive). There are no checks or balances there. Alternatively you can make it as public as possible.
Both of these gents should be household names. With time I am sure they will be...
shiiiiiit i hope so. doubt it tho ....
their clearity, logic and openness for dialogue will ruin them
At 3:10 he mentions we “found sources”, but he didn’t say what the source was.
Integrity, good!
That was absolutely first rate. Recognizing that the job of a police officer is difficult doesn't mean that you need to become an apologist for their bad behavior, although more and more I'm coming to believe that they act the way they do as a consequence of a system that fundamentally doesn't respect individual citizens. To send someone out on the street with a gun who has less than half the training of a hairdresser in many if not most states says that you don't really care what happens to your citizens, particularly the poor ones.
I would hypothesize that non-lethal use of force is correlated with rates of resisting arrest. If you are a cop and blacks are resisting arrest at a greater rate than whites, it might lead you to generally be rougher when making arrests, so this should be studied - maybe it has been studied for all I know.
BTW, my brother ( white ) was arrested for fare-beating in the New York City subway, didn't resist arrest, but was slammed down on the ground and had a knee put on his neck - just like George Floyd. Being younger, in good health and not a drug user, he came out OK - but it was a scary experience that he is still angry about.
Ironically, today a quarter of the riders on the NYC transit system simply go over or under the turnstiles or through an open gate and suffer zero consequences, even when cops are standing right there. That is the consequence of cops being held 'accountable' by cellphones - it is more rational for them to simply collect paychecks and do nothing - thus one of the several causes of the massive rise in crime.
Finally, I am sick with disgust at the treatment that Roland Fryer has received from Harvard - whose motives and tactics have been as base, gutter-level, slimy and dishonest as it is possible to imagine. There is not the slightest doubt that Harvard has leveraged the MeToo movement as a flimsy pretext behind which to punish an honest researcher whose findings contradict one of the Holy Racial Teachings of the Church of Woke ( police bias in shootings).
I studied his work and it is very thorough. And he uses statistical variance in 18 cities that show at least 25% of bias. From stops, searches, car searches, shoves, punches, mace even tasers. *The thing that surprised me was amount of disparity in the use of force/searches that didn't end in an arrest.*
Great content! Not defending dirty cops by any means. They should lose their badge immediately when caught. But I can imagine the human fear in the violent cities as Mr Hugh’s states. We run away from & they run towards not knowing who may be armed. They have families, babies & spouses too they just want to get home to.♥️MORE training & mental health checks are undoubtedly needed! Not defunding
What was considered a use of force at these lower levels? In some police report writing schemes, a complaint of pain from handcuffs requires a use of force write up. A simple control hold with a minor injury claim like a twisted arm could be considered a lesser use of force than being choked out by VNR depending on the jurisdiction.
Conversely a frisk to check for weapons is not a “use of force” but is very invasive and creates a lot of bad blood between police and community.
I applaud Fryer’s work but this issue isn’t just a matter of going into the weeds. It’s 40 feet thick of mud and silt and currents below those weeds.
In my city, the use of force along racial lines closely matches up to the proportion of arrests for each group.
All one needs to do is watch Police Activity channel with all the officer involved shootings on body cams and you’ll see what police are dealing with.
Part of me wonders if it really matters whether people believe there is bias in fatal shootings. What negative thing might happen if people mistakenly believe police shootings are biased, instead of only believing that lower level force is biased? Would there be a different response? Should there be a different response? Is the fear that, if people only believe police use lower level force disproportionately, then less collective action will be taken, whereas if people believe police use fatal force disproportionately, they may take stronger action?
I believe that TRUTH should be important. If people aren't concerned about that but rather some agenda, then I see that as a bigger problem. People should make INFORMED decisions. Informed by true information, not disinformation. If the response is different, then it differs because of accurate information.
I think that is the logic. As for negative outcomes, the issue isn't people mistakenly believing something (in this case). It's that not EVERYONE believes it so you end up getting pushback for something people overwhelmingly support.
The bigger issue with that logic though is you need to understand the problem to create the correct solution. So promoting a false narrative means the proposed solutions are likely focused on solving a problem that doesn't actually exist and therefore even if you spend enough political capital to get past the resistance you're still going to have the same problem.
It is about time that Fryer spoke on cops grabbing blacks. That's what blacks are most convened with. The "They are killing us" BLM approach was hyperbolic. But I'm glad Coleman is finally dealing with this part of Roland's report.
High crime communities get treated with more caution and suspicion than low crime communities?
Just a wild guess.
And individuals that respect the police get more respect back?
Another wild guess.
Mr. Coleman used the words, "divide the country." The country has been divided since inception. None of these recent events create the current atmosphere.
Is there any data available which articulates the justification each police officer has behind each use of force. That way it would be easier to pinpoint the particular bias and assumption cops tend to make regarding black people and that way those biases could be fought.
"I'm old now. I've been black a long time."
cool #polo
No mention of the publics role in the problem. Both sides need to meet in the middle.
I wonder how the rate of police force would change if the study was conducted in a city with more restrictive gun control which may lead to less police anxiety regarding whether or not a suspect is armed. For example, I wonder if in a state like California there would be lower rates of police violence, and whether or not the racial disparities in non lethal force persist in those states.
"A new study, undertaken by Ravi Shroff, an assistant professor holding joint appointments at NYU Steinhardt and NYU CUSP, and his colleagues at the Stanford Open Policing Project, found that in a dataset of nearly 100 million traffic stops across the United States, black drivers were about 20 percent more likely to be stopped than white drivers relative to their share of the residential population."
20% higher is not ideal but I bet most people assume that it is much more lopsided that that.
Unfortunately I imagine they also disproportionately commit crimes due to circumstances of their environment
How about a reform of how people react and interact with police, when they get pulled over. I don't know... something revolutionary like politeness, maybe?
Start with that.
I respect the work the Dr. Fryer has done and how he has called out other researchers for ignoring data and results. But he talks about a 25% bias against blacks involving low-level force and how that should be addressed. Fair enough. But then he say that when looking at lethal force, there is no bias. But that is not true. He wrote in his own paper that there was a 27% bias against whites involving lethal force. If he is going to refer to lethal-level force as having no bias (when it is actually 27% against whites), then he should also refer to low-level force as having no bias (when it is 25% against blacks), or he should at the least talk explicitly about the bias against whites. Perhaps he should call out himself for glossing over that finding.
To help me process past relationships, I learnt about the dynamics of domination and bullying, and I think it’s exactly the same thing happening with the police/ people of colour. When I saw a young black man being physically detained by a policeman, it felt that he wasn’t just doing his job, but that there was a component of subjugation (and maybe sadism) that was very disturbing.
But what’s the data on those stops? Fryer’s data actually shows treatment to be within 17-25% the same between races. Roughly 2.7% of whites got handcuffed during stop and frisk and roughly 3.1% of blacks. That huge?
the same could be presumed about a white coo pulling over a white young man. Do you feel that way or only upon seeing a young black man.
LMAO the dunk of economists and social scientists was hilarious
Key comment, "none of it got done" = Our tax dollars & politicians at work.
Serious question here. Is it irrational for a police officer to generally use more force while policing in neighborhoods where violence against police is so high?
Force needed to be meted out on an individual basis. Force cannot precede force.
8:10 "it's Bayesian". That goes both ways. The cops are also acting on their prior experience.
I find the poor audio too frustrating to listen to it. I'm struggling to make out a lot of what he says.
Interesting idea that the outrage over shootings is a redirect of latent anger over experiencing low-level use of force in police interactions.
I’m still not understanding why it’s hard, besides seeing bad stuff
There is no excuse for illegal police actions/behavior but at the same time the human mind/soul can only handle so much of being exposed to the worst that humanity has to offer on a daily basis like what cops have to deal with. I think robots/AI would be better equipped than a human being in handling the daily emotional trauma that human cops have to deal with every day.
People often can't even begin to have a fruitful conversation about these things because their thinking is buried underneath the weight of identities and self-concepts that label them as any and everything except a human being created in the image of God. If you don't have the first part right...everything that follows will be distorted and destructive. Without spiritual clarity your physical or mental vision is undependable. Logic and information, by themselves, aren't enough.
Why is there not the same discussion on black on black crime. Black folk always looking outside and backward instead of inside and forward
The police commissioner of Baltimore is named Barksdale? Was The Wire naming a clown on this guy?
Coleman I am a black gay man and I apologize In advance for my next comment.
Second to my husband, you are one sexy black man. Your intelligence and approach moves me. For the record, almost nothing moves me, your work does. I am envious of your ability because I not nearly as disciplined to do the work for which, I am most passionate. In ten years when I'm ready to retire I will be in a better position to pursue this type of work☺️ I'm blushing with black pride
Would Roland Fryer be willing to engage with Donald Trump, if he is elected in 2024? Trump was willing to work with Dr. Carson on Opportunity Zones in Black Communities and also with his work on the First Step Act. Maybe Dr. Fryer, President Trump could, and a possible VP Scott could actually get something done.
Yes, lower levels of "force" is an interesting aspect. But, how can you tell if blacks, when stopped, are not more outwardly aggressive -- in posture, talk, movements, suggested disrespect, etc -- on average, thereby stimulating the cop to act with a little more force for obvious safety/defensive reasons? Seems like when a cop stops a dweeby/accountant/asian guy, the cop will feel a lot less threatened physically than when pulling over a loud, physically flailing, disrespectful individual? And, are blacks more likely, statistically, to be in that category? Such data is not available, so hard to draw conclusions etc. Either way, an interesting topic.
Good point
Roland and Coleman touched in the issue, but they still seem to have far far far more good faith charity in understanding a black Americans bigotries against all cops for maybe 2-3 negative experiences with them, *but when cops have literally 1000s of absolutely horrific interactions with black Americans, that same charity is out the fuckin window.*
I mean, just the fact that black men are like 3% of the country, and yet they are the single most likely person to MURDER ANOTHER PERSON, and they are what…. 45% of cop killers? Making them 1500% over represented in murdering cops, and depending on the area, for a giant portion of cops I’d wager 40-60% of their daily work is dealing with black men specifically, and they see every murder, ever kid killed in a drive by, they know about every cop killed, they know the worst shit in American society… and we are supposed to pretend that the sheer FUCKING BEHEMOTH THAT IS BLACK CRIMINALITY/VIOLENCE is supposed to have absolutely ZERO EFFECT ON A COPS PERCEPTION of the group?
I really wish Roland had studied Asians/Jews and especially AFRICAN IMMIGRANTS to see how these groups compared in his police brutality study. I would bet my life that in the same way that blacks get roughed up by cops more than whites per capita, whites get roughed up more than Asians per capita, and that would bolster my idea that it’s the perceptual residue left by so many interactions with these groups that lead to the bias against them, NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE ALONE, but because of their relation to criminality which is represented by their race.
In the same way Police treat men differently than women, I suspect they treat black men differently than everyone else because of their crime rates and how the cops are THE GROUP TASKED WITH CLEANING UP THEIR MESS.
Old Hot take here.
Aggression usually meets aggression.
Now who started it is debatable and I'm sure involved tribes will feel themselves as justified for theirs in bias.
There will be cops with bad tact, discriminative bias, or with a power trip.
There will also be folks who do stuff and saying they not doing anything and trying to convince of otherwise. Also with discriminative bias and poor tact. And with same self confidence as a power trip but only ego and not real position of authority and what comes with that by societal role or job.
Collecting that minor aggression data will mainly inflame the desires and bias of tribes to save face on who started it.
The tensions more become hey....you put your pattern and reasoning of type 2 discrimination down first (Sowell reference). Truly a stalemate to relationship pattern knowing that the fools among both tribes rank ...are going to mess that good faith up and restore tension even if both tribes attempt to magically cease aggressions simultaneously . The narrative culture unfortunately sustaining but it was a nice coke and a smile break. Lol
My main idea...is until tribes can outwardly address the outliers and truly justifiable for the outcomes openly and honestly as a common ground or in agreement...it will be difficult to move in good faith of community solutions. Sympathies and empathy blurry and shield the problems. Needed but also double edged.
I've been trying to fathom solutions on this middle ground battle for years. No luck. We the people are fickled and unpredictable.
I definitely liked this interview.
First off I'm only half way thru watching , but I have been thinking exactly what's stated for a decade plus. Thou it's where I started it's evolved to me. I'd hope two astute men like yourselves could find the proof to the theory evolved.
In effect you said shootings are about racially equal yet blacks do suffer from mire use of force. According to your research, I mean no offense but I do think it's flawed, you stopped short once seeing what you said you expected to be found in higher amounts you didn't but when found the one offset stat you accepted it and looked no further , easy to do . But I'd challenge you to incorporate economic class into it. Two reasons first off black and white demographics vary considerably in percents between it's affluent and lower classes were I do think you may find higher levels of instances between affluent blacks and police over affluent whites. , I do think the lower class examined would show more equality and as whites have greater numbers it's lower class is likely more than the black demographic. The flaws are being used by race hustlers and those wanting division between race when actuality it is a lower class issue far more so. Esp when you consider the legal outcomes and incarceration. The lower class regardless of race can't always afford a good defense and more subject to railroad justice. The one possiblity that could effect that is it's possible lower class whites have family willing to cover the cost of their defense.. far from all but some sure I'd concede.
You don't have many views now, but repost this video in 2024 when this subject gets manipulated once again by political lobbies and it will be a chart topper.
It’s really unfortunate that so many of Coleman’s guests have shit-tier audio. Half his podcasts I find unlistenable.
Lol..
If the likelihood that the police use force is 25% higher, that doesn’t tell you how likely it is, it is a relative number. For example, if the likelihood that the police use force on white people is 1%, then for black people it is 1.25%. If the likelihood that the police use force on white people is 0.1%, the likelihood for black people is 0.125%. Now, how often do the police use force on white people, when they cooperate? Not very often, therefore for black people, even though it is 25% higher, even though not fair or right, it is still not very often.
What about those everyday harassments/offenses committed by black people against all other ethnicities? In around 90% of all interracial offences, the offender is black. Could that be a source of the Bayesian bias?
True, but i don't think that is what they're talking about.. i agree, but the conversation they're having is different.
Also look at this way.. white people get their shit pushed in more than blacks..
From that perspective you would think cops is a problem for the people.
@@elitebeing21 My framing probably did not provide the most readily perceivable parallel to their conversation. But Roland was contemplating why the police have a higher rate of force use against black people in situations were such use of force is less warranted.
This use of force is then used to explain the outrage the black community frequently expresses towards the police.
But paralleling the heightened suspicion of the police by the black community is the heightened suspicion of the average black person by the police due to the higher base rate of criminal offending that exists within the black community.
@@memeticist oh ok.. i have a better understanding now and agree with sentiment.
Lol show the evidence lol you’re making up stats because you believe them 😂😂😂 you pale faces are ridiculous
@@caspianhall Um, no kiddo. You could start with the National Crime Victimization Survey, which does not distinguish Caucasian and Hispanic in the perpetrator category. It does do so in the victim category. Furthermore, you could look up the Bureau of Justice Statistics report entitled “Homicide Trends in the U.S.: Trends by Race.”
There is no "racial disparity"
Lol a pale face who doesn’t want a debate just a black talking head who’s a conservative
Coleman said there is no bias in "shootings". I've heard Glenn Loury put it the same way- saying just shooting, but they need to specify whether they are talking about general shooting vs. unjust shootings of unarmed people. The other question is why do people who are a part of the party who champions law and order, don't make a big deal out of the unjustified shoots of non Black people, by police officers, or the existence of corruption in police departments? Why are they not proactive on these, issues that erode the trust and confidence of the public, in the police departments? Why doesn't Fox News see them as news worthy?
First it has to be agreed upon what is justified. Then you have to come to an agreement about what the intent was, and what the punishment should be. It's a very complicated issue.
It was the gay professor 😂
Do you think the cause of racial bias in lower level use of force is that black men are many more times likely to shoot a police officer than any other demographic? Seems to me like self preservation.
Proven to be a hack
I’m tired of how expensive and arduous you all make everything in a country you did not build but have aggressively destroyed since the great migration.
Question: How much do these grifters like Roland Fryer and Coleman Hughes get paid?
How much do you get paid?
@@AndreComtois I get paid NOTHING. I speak from the heart.
And I am not a house slave.
BLM was such a great grift
OMG hilarious. Roland "You're nerds no one likes you anyway"
Radley Balko debunked Roland Fryer already 🙄
I had never heard of Balko until now. I’m curious of his findings but I must admit he comes off biased, just a little bit, with a title such as "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces". I admit I’m a bit skeptical.
Edit: I remember his face now (didn’t remember the name) from this debate. He did okay but I think he lost.
czcams.com/video/FbWZM94nwD8/video.html
This is only the result of a quick google, so there might be more that he's said, but it doesn't sound like he debunked him:
In a Washington Post editorial in response to Fryer's work, writer Radley Balko listed several cases of police shootings that were deemed lawful but might have been avoidable with more careful work by officers.
"Again, none of this is to say this data is completely useless," Balko wrote. "We just need to be really cautious about how we use it, and realize that the numbers alone don’t always tell the story.
For those wondering, Radley Balko is a WA Post journalist. His critique of the work is predominantly that police would misclassify their shootings to be legal and justified even when they're not. But if they're doing that for all shootings that wouldn't artificially reduce racial differences.
@@atsleepwalkingpace whenever a solo comment ends with an eye roll, the entire comment is usually BS that sounds good to people who don’t bother to look further.
Radley Balko doesn’t believe drunk driving should be illegal