Wheel of Time Casting Controversy RESOLVED!
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- čas přidán 10. 05. 2020
- Matt Hatch from the Dusty Wheel and I dove into an issue plaguing the Wheel of Time community. The Wheel of Time's casting for the show over at Amazon has resulted in countless internet debates. This video should lay them all to rest assuming we did our jobs well. Enjoy!
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I believe one of the main reasons The Two Rivers has such a strong misconception among the fanbase is it constantly being referred to as a “ series of tiny ultra remote villages” when what we see is far from that. The population of Emonds Field alone must be hundreds and hundreds of people. The fact that this “tiny” population was able to fight a trolloc horde repeatedly shows us it is certainly greater than the
Nice
@@cheifdonkey149 in my mind I sought of imagined the two rivers as Italian sorta, tear being dark skinned idk your thoughts would be nice
Trolloc horde is not an absolute number either. From the point of view of a village of a few hundred people, a thousand Trollocs is a horde. And Emond's Field was at the end of their resources and losing, when the other two villages showed up. But either way, I don't see how that affects anything pertaining to the casting.
It does not matter what WE think of as a small village. What matters to the discussion of the breeding pool and genetic traits occurring, is that to educated, well-traveled people IN THEIR OWN WORLD, Emond's Field counts as a small village, and two channelers as strong as Egwene & Nynaeve, from a community the size of Emond's Field is considered extraordinary, by people who give rather a lot of attention to the issue of the channeling population.
Daniel is like the primitive scientists who come up with all sorts of "scientific" arguments about why the Earth could not possibly be able to revolve around the sun. Whether or not we can speak the language of the concepts he accepts, the answer to refute him is the same - "It still moves." Daniel can split hairs this way and that. The point is, because the Two Rivers has been isolated and not interbreeding with the outside world, traits occur in the population there that are unusual elsewhere, like their strength and number of channelers compared to similar populations, or the blood of Manetheren so strongly reinforced in the population that people have genetic memories of its final days. Daniel can say it's impossible for the breeding to be so isolated and concentrated.... but it still works that way.
I'm not even through the first book yet (started based on your recommendation) but what struck me about the Emond's field chapters is how effectively they captured the feeling of isolation for Rand. As the reader, Emond's Field and the other villages almost felt like the entire world except for some shadowy rumours. The other villages were like entirely different countries. This might explain why some readers think of the Two Rivers area as being "a series of tiny ultra remote villages", because that's how Rand and his friends felt they were and those are the eyes we initially see the Two Rivers through.
I'll add a caveat to again say that I'm a total Wheel of Time noob and I'm not claiming to know basically anything about anything.
Thank you
First time Cenn Buie is actually getting to be relevant to the Wheel of Time.
Henry C first comment to make me laugh.
Henry C I knew he’d get the spotlight he deserves
That roof ain't gonna thatch itself.
Yeah, except not really. From Google: "As the roots get older and bigger, they also get stronger and tougher, the change causes them to darken, usually to a GREY/brown colour" (my capitals). So Cenn Buie could just as easily have been grey, which would make more sense since RJ was going for old and gnarly as prime characteristicas.
@@theupperechelon7634 Could have been, but the fact that RJ used the same term to refer to people from Tear indicates how he intended it.
Matt: "As Robert Jordan himself explains, first in a 1996 AOL chat"
Me: "Shit just got real."
Ha ha, I know right, Matt getting fast and loose with the fact bombs!
This series had millions of fans since the nineties, what's so surprising about this?
Whoosh 😋
Adam Birch - Just saw this, laughed out loud, and sent it to my family text. :)
Ah~ good ol' AOL chats! My, how the times do be changin'!!! 🤣💜
The greatest opportunity the design team has for betrayal: costuming. We know what every dress from every character in every nation looks like and so help me if we end up with a bland renfest style that doesn't vary much by culture I'll be pissed. That's what RJ cared about. If you want to know what the author cared about in his story telling, read his story. He cared about cultures, clothing, mannerisms, military strategy and speech patterns in his world building. Those are what he spent the most time on, and those are the things I hope the show doesn't lose. They make his world more real and different from other fantasy worlds.
As a particularly wise author for one of the "Wheel of Time Adaptation announcement" articles once wrote: if we can't tell a Tairan nobleman from his Cairhien counterpart simply by the suit he's wearing, heads will roll.
This. Which is part of the reason I see WoT as a very anti-racist text
He spent so much time describing the dresses' on Nynaeve my wife thought i was listening to romance novels when ever she happened to hear one of the descriptions lol
Word on the street is that the costume budget is 3X the FX budget. I'm not sure that's gonna buy enough dresses.
@@shannonlawhorn1674 not even close....
38:57 RJ: "I knew a lot of gingers, and I thought it would be hysterical if they were stuck in the desert sun all day long. Maybe they'd eventually figure out how to get tan rather than just being crispy little lobsters. "
"Crispy little lobsters"
The Royal Marines figured it out. ;)
This is hands-down the best comment I’ve read in a long time :D
As a ginger, I wish.
“Minus gunpowder..”
..Illuminators rubs hands together, “good, goood!”
I picked that up, too. As soon as he said "minus gunpowder," I immediately thought "Not so, there are illuminators." It might not have been widely used, but it existed.
Underrated comment. 😂
Lol.. first thing I thought about.. the dragons..
"Look at this pale ass dude. He ain't from the two rivers."
Poor Elaida.
Off the top of my head, the most important appearance match is that Nynaeve has a braid long enough to tug on ;)
Yes. That and Rand's hair and eyes. That's all we need. As long as they get THOSE TWO DETAILS right, everything is fine.
A braid. Not dozens of dreadlocks
I was actually talking to my partner about this and I mentioned to her "how did they get the materials for an on point weave for her?". To my embarrassment, my black friend had to point out to me that REALLY long weaves and hair like isn't their real hair. So maybe she made it herself? I dunno, I like the show and the diversity I think is good. But it is the ole fantasy trope of, they're living in ancient times but the women still have no body hair and have access to hair + makeup somehow.
@@OtterThunder lmao black people can have braids without wearing weave btw if you didn’t know
@@brett88knight where do you see dreadlocks?
The Knight Watch just did a video reacting to some of these arguments. Looks like Daniel avoided their scrutiny, but the Dusty Wheel not so much!
What video is it ?
The Knight's Watch is a bunch of racist white English boys wearing costumes, sitting in a basement, spouting utter nonsense in the name of 'canon logic'. Take a moment to analyze all the racial comments they make. They don't even have the common sense to understand why whitewashing is a thing best avoided, but casting a POC in the role of a perceived white person is hardly something to protest about. If you don't take into account the sheer lack of colored characters in popular English fiction, then you are coming to the argument with an existing bias.
@@TathagataMitraTom Okay, I'll bite. They are actually Australian. Can you provide examples of their racism? I don't agree with everything they say, but usually they provide nuance to their views. I would love to hear where they justify whitewashing.
I agree with you about a lack of black representation in popular English fiction, but that's what happens when you are adapting a work historically tied to a specific culture rather than creating something new. If I chose to adapt a work of folk literature from Africa would you expect me to make sure it has balanced racial representation? I wouldn't think so, since it represents the culture of Africa. Even if new white characters were added, such a thing would probably be construed as "whitewashing" when it is simply the opposite of what you are defending
Me: I'm not going to watch a 45 minute video in which a guy lectures genetics from a world that doesn't even exist
45 minutes later.....
We all know how this ends
Same.
I agree with everything except the disingenuous dismissal of the involvement of progressive politics. Daniel Greene sound like someone who's barely familiar with politics, it's not some great vague liberal conspiracy, the push to diversify Hollywood and media, even at the cost of canon, has been a mainstream movement for a long time.
Hollywood in general is very political, the showrunners are very likely to be politically motivated when choosing their cast. Deliberately choosing non-white actors doesn't come at a large cost to the actor's quality.
@@TomFranklinX you are correct, the only damage is to the story. They should not even bother making this show. If you cannot do something right, don’t bother. Let’s remake Shaft and have a white guy play the part of Shaft and see if everyone still thinks it is okay.
This is such a mood
Me: Oh this is probably only gonna be a shorter five minute video...
Daddy Daniel: 45 minute long video
Me: I see this as an absolute win!
The only reason I shut the episode of WoT off after 10-15 minutes was the wave, literal tsunami of changed Canon. That TV series isn't WoT. Its something else with WoT names on characters
The only thing RJ cares so much about genetically is hair tugging
Moiraine when she rolls into Emond's field and sees a six and a half foot tall redhead - [Leo DiCaprio pointing meme]
@Robertson Thirdly I think it's reasonably clear that Moiraine was 90% sure it was Rand from the second she met him, and only took Mat and Perrin along with them because she couldn't be 100% sure and because it might split the attention of anyone pursuing them. The original version of New Spring makes this even clearer, by Moiraine having records of Tam and Kari al'Thor, but he cut that bit out in the novel version so it's unclear if that remained canon.
@@adamwhitehead7289 yes I always wondered why she brought mat and perrin, was it because they saw the fade like rand? Or because they are born outside the two rivers, but she doesn't know where? I think it would be mentioned if they were so my guess is that she brings them out of the 2 rivers because the shadow wants them, and if the shadow wants something her and Lan will just stand in the way.
@@MrJohnp93 the three boys were the only ones born in the specific period that would've been announced when Moiraine heard the Foretelling by Gitara together with Siuan while young.
@@jellevanbreugel325 but she's searching for a boy who was born on dragonmount, didn't she know rand wasn't born in the two rivers already?
@@MrJohnp93 not sure, it's been a while since i've read new spring. May'be they weren't sure if they had to take that part of the prophecy literal?
What I learned from this: Daniel is a tree-killer.
More like a tree maimer... I think the tree survived. I hope
I mean look at how many trees he has on his book shelves... obviously LOL
Aiel War 2.0, here we go
@@Eiroth We MUST AVENGE DANIALS PRIDE! GATHER THE CLANS BLOOD FEUD ON DANIEL!
#DanielGreeneForOlver
My parents were from a small Asian town. Not isolated. They can tell who was from another region and what direction. They also didn’t speak the same way. They didn’t look the same way. What the hell are you talking about?
Btw who told you it takes 10,000 years? Which geneticist told you this? Having seen family members from different continents. It looks like it takes two generations.
I see Daniel has appropriated Brandon Sanderson's style sense...😂🤣
This will prove to be a mistake. NEVER wear a t-shirt under a blazer.
Not unless you plan on moving back in with your mom.
Hey hey hey hey hey dont you go pickin on BrandoSando, he makes it stylish
20:00 Can we all agree that the real tragedy of WOT casting is that Alan Rickman is not around to play Padan Fain?
I haven’t read WOT but just saying “Alan Rickman” in connection to it may have gotten me interested.
I actually grieve SO many roles that Alan Rickman can’t play- the biggest one being Vetinari from “Discworld”, which Terry Pratchett actually modelled after him in ‘Die Hard’.
He'd have been better as Ishamael in my opinion. Padan Fain is and always will be Robert Carlyle.
Yeah, his name caught my eye. I miss him.
Oh man, you're right! That would've been perfect
YES! THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE TAKING AWAY! Screw race, screw accusations of a woke agenda, screw the haters, the fact that Alan Rickman didnt live long enough to play a role like Padan Fain that there should be no doubt he'd be able to so perfectly NAIL is the real tragedy.
Matt : Deep dives into a 1996 AOL interview, pores over RJs notes, explains painstakingly that people are wrong.
Daniel : "Yeah, I got stick. Look at my stick. Stick not me."
Gorgeous.
I hope Brandon Sanderson watches this video. "I am a stick."
I AM (not) ROOT
@@adammoshinsky6012 Kate Reading did a marvelous job on the stick's voice in the audiobook
@@adammoshinsky6012 that is one of my favorite parts to listen to. I described it to a friend who hadn't read that book and it cracked her up too.
@@Algardraug YES! Her voices really made a lot of the scenes, but the stick always cracks me up.
I can't remember if there is much in WOT about languages at all, but: Language isolation is a huge thing in real world settings. The fact that people in The Two Rivers communicate fine, aren't completely lost culturally (even if they are country bumpkins) and aren't shocked to death when they see someone different seems (to me) telling in a world as detailed as this.
Part of my family is from an area that had actual tiny, isolated, homogenous communities (in northern Sweden) and while people were similar in colouring, THEY COULD BARELY UNDERSTAND SOMEONE SPEAKING IF THEY WERE FROM 3 VILLAGES AWAY. (Most of these tiny local languages and dialects are gone now). A common language suggests travel, expanded trade and some level of education system and probably larger regulatory bodies.
Anyway, my point is that communities supposedly that isolated are isolated in every sense, not just in how people look.
(Also this video is great, I'm a pretty new subscriber and never commented before hi)
I think language is were WOT lacks a bit. You got all these cultures that are so unique and they all talk a "common" language. The only different language they have is the old tongue which is like some kind of latin for these cultures. They do have this that you explain (they sometimes find difficult to understand other people accent) but nevertheless is the same language.
@@marceloescamilla8867 Language was preserved through trade and, MOST importantly, a printing press. The printing press is where language stabilised in our own history.
"aren't shocked to death when they see someone different" Umm.... yeah.. so any peddler or merchant entering the town is a huge deal, they make a big fuss about Moiraine, everyone in town is literally making a huge deal out of someone slightly different showing up.
@@MordethKai A big fuss isn't huge shock though? It's been a while but my impression was that someone different was an event not disbelief that they could exist?
@@tobs6474 Sounds like splitting hairs, shock, surprised, whatever word you want to use to describe it, they do give that reaction. Moiraine is Carhien which isn't too terribly different from Andor culturally, but it does give the impression that, say, if the Sea Folk showed up they would be quite a bit more shocked. Perrin is shocked that Egwene's parents maintain composure when confronted with the Aiel, he expected them to freak out for a reason.
Of course, if you want to move the goalpost to 'they didn't think they were the only human beings in existence', welp, no point going further.
I always saw the Emond Fielders as middle eastern or mediterranean looking. dark hair, dark eyes, and bronze skin
Damn it. On the cover art of book one, one of them is clearly Nicholas Cage. I demand Nicholas Cage to be casted!
What if Matt is really just homosexual and really trying to overcompensate. :) Just saying- maybe they should tweek that as well.
@@lanebatts26
No.
TheAtheistPaladin but Nicholas Cage cannot act. He honestly sucks at anything that involves emotion.
Ew. Just... ew.
It also kind of looks like Rafe Judkins himself, the showrunner!
"the aiel are based on the irish" made me laugh a bit. can you imagine aviendha saying "jaysus i'm gagging for a pint." or gaul eating a tayto sandwich. amys says "how's she cuttin lads" and bair says "ach down the sides and up the middle." dancing with sightblinder is a euphemism for the treble jig because of how much it wrecks your ankles.
this comment was brought to you by The Irish Gang™
Rand knew he had some attraction to visit Tayto Park for some reason... honestly when I saw that I gasped. The Aiel are about as much Irish as Irish are English. Honestly, where did that come from (most likely ginger stereotypes, which isn’t even right).
Ultan Tuffy rand gets cravings for beans on toast, that’s how we know he’s a gasúr
I never really thought of them as Irish, actually. All the while reading the books, I've always thought of them as Nordic, or sun-tanned vikings if you will.
😂😂😂
@@aswaney7449 *desert celts.
This Dusty Wheel guy is so disingenuous
26:30 - “Seldom” refers to height, not darkness of hair and eye. Note the comma in between the “dark of hair and eye” and the comment about his height. So much for your comment about completely and utterly ending the debate.
.
Another fact pointing that dark-skinned Andorans in the Baerlon area aren’t unusual is Rhavin, who is established as a black man. People where suspicious of the fact they had never heard of Lord Gaebril from the West before, but they never found his physical appearance noteworthy in any way for an Andoran.
I will be 100% honest. When you kept saying Matt at the beginning of the video I for some reason kept thinking that you were talking about Mat the book character and how he turned out to be this secret genealogist that I completely missed in my multiple read-throughs.
But on a more serious note. Great video, don't know why people are getting their panties in a twist about this. Don't judge the show until it is out and you can see how they do
Excellent point. Like, I hear people going "oh no, it's going to be ruined, everything about this show will suck blah blah blah." That makes no sense to me at all. Like, we know relatively little about the show and I very much doubt Amazon would sink however many millions of dollars into a project that's going to suck. Why make snap judgments based off pretty minimal information about something that could be very, very good?
I'm worried that it'll be ruined, but more due to writing/ directing/ etc.
But that's most likely due to me really loving the series and just wanting them to do it justice.
Aaron Zegas Sadly, some people are just short sighted and easily outraged. And then there are certain "fans" who demand to be placated to in every way. And any deviation from what they want is a capital offense. I try to ignore them, as they are narcissists who really don't care about the subject.
fukin lol
Yes!!!! lol
This video aged well…
Can we all just agree that the only character who's color will matter at all is the green man.
I'm thinking fuchsia or violet would be good colors to make him.
@@mutanttugboat9266 I'm partial to blue myself
@@1489mjwilson I think you might be onto something
Charlie Kelley is in this?! SOLD!!
I'm wondering, are they gonna use Acorns for his underparts, or Grapefruits? Will he have a Banana, or a Zucchini? Lol.
"Of RJ found it important he would've mentioned it. A lot."
So true. Example: we all know, Siuan Sanche is a got-damn fisherman's daughter. Every 5 seconds, we are reminded... She comes from fish people.
Sorry, rereading right now and up to my crows nest in fish puns.
Don't eat me, but the only thing that matters about these actors/actresses is that they do the roles justice, bring the characters to life.
I also dont think as many people actually care but that the people who do care are so offensive to the people who dont care that its blown out of proportion.
Siuan Sanche comes from fish people.
But Siuan Sanche, even though coming from Tear that are supposedly darker skinned, is described as having the same fair skin tone as Moiraine in the New Spring. Canon!
@@mrpolskija i think you missed the point lol.
@@mrpolskija r/whooosh
I for one, can't wait to see siuan cast and performed. I really enjoyed moments with her in the books!
Fish guts!
Now that’s a Deep Dive!!! This has far more evidence than I imagined would exist. The tag team between Daniel and Matt helped to keep it fresh and the pace lively. I am glad that tackled this, so from now on I can point itu
I'm just waiting for the casting of Lanfear... insanely beautiful, insanely powerful and insanely insane :)
I only recently started WOT. Currently starting book 12. I personally do not know anyone who has read the entire series so instead of talking to a friend about the books, I've watched a lot of WOT videos. Alot! This is my absolute favorite. Th.is episode needed to be made by someone even if the TV adaptation wasn't being made. Thank you, Mr. Green, for this. I'm am glad you grabbed mat and put this together.
Matt is a Ta'veren - my perspective has changed
Woah, never thought I'd see you here.
You can discuss strategy in the wheel of time. I am reading the wheel of time and it is interesting. I completed 13 books. I appreciate your workm
@Kings and Generals - Much too kind, but thank you. And thank you for listening.
I hope you cover Matt's awesome battles in the future.
*and also Ituralde
Oh, it's you!
Wait a "response video" with actual research and level headed arguments. That's illegal.
Idk about "level-headed" lol
@@TheDragonSwordsman In my head canon - to which I refuse to acknowledge any contrary information - you're a pissed-off phrenology enthusiast.
Why? Is race an issue. Rand stands out.
@@TheDragonSwordsman he doesn't lost his cool, use slurs or attack the people that disagree personally. Agree or disagree, you can't deny that Daniel is indeed level-handed.
@@biazacha He didn't lose his cool, but he certainly wasn't fair. He was snide, condescending, and unprofessional.
I'm just waiting to hear my beautiful slushy Deep South accent coming out of the Seanchan's mouths, lol!
Y'all need to praise that there 'mpress, may she live 'ferever.
@@stabby_baby_chaos6842 oh Lord no, lol! There's not many here who talk that horribly anymore, we DO have modern technology now, lol! But I gotta admit, if that DID happen I'd probably have a coronary from laughing so hard, lol!
@@stabby_baby_chaos6842 This is me... dying of laughter! XD
To make it even richer, it seems like the Seanchan employ a rather formal mode of speech, so take your Deep South drawl and make it fancy, then you get Seanchan speak.
I'm just happy the guy playing Perrin can grow a beard lol.
Daniel Greene- With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death. - fragment from a log of The Great Arguments of this video’s comment section
I got chills, not gonna lie XD
@@CanzonE_ ngl my nipples hardaned at " there is no salvation without destruction"
One thing about these books is that all of these predictions were so epic, the ending did not quite live up to them IMO. There should have been more chaos and destruction throughout the world before/during the last battle.
I’ve never been upset about the casting. I just NEED Rand to be Ginger.
I agree - I feel like red headed males get such a hard time, so it would be good to have a red haired male lead in a tv show
If he isn’t red headed in the show this is not cannon.... or at least cannon to the age we read.
The biggest issue I have with Rand's hair is that he is Aiel... and the Aiel are from the desert? Sun and heat do not mix well with gingers... Just a random thought...
Brien oh. I’m a ginger and I agree.
Isn't he auburn hair
I've started reading the books after seeing first season of the show. And when I read I actually see actors' faces in my mind. And never once (I'm two books deep) have I read description on the page that flat out clashed with my show flavoured mental images
Thank-you for this video. It is easy to read something and assume all the characters look like the reader, and then have those ideas disturbed when watching a live adaptation.
Okay you did this justice, man. Also love how professional and gathered Matt is, while you're just ducking around on the screen from time to time.
19:00 haha
This was the best part
He's getting his money's worth on that green screen
This is what I imagine it would look like if Perrin (played by Matt Hatch) was calmly explaining to someone why they were coming across as an ass, with Mat (played by Daniel Greene) popping in every once in a while to be like, "Damn son, you just got burned!"
Daniel runnin around like he’s Matt’s hype man.
"Look at this pale a** dude! He ain't from the Two Rivers"- Elaida (?)
canon.
CANON.
Cannon
Cannon
His skin, when sun-tanned (and recall he looks like an Aiel) was not that different than TR people, it was only when she pushed his sleeve back to reveal the paler, non-tanned skin that she said that he didn't fit two river's people. Basically take an Aiel, give him a sun-tan, and that is TR people.... dusky white folk. Domani, Tairiens, Ebou Dari, are much darker..... TR are white farmer folk with a bit more melanin in their skin than pale Aiel. Read the books closer.
That was epic, thanks for doing all that research and presenting it in such a entertaining professional way
In my most recent re-read, I found something I missed about Nynaeve. When the girls get to Ebou Dar in book 6, they mention how disguising themselves as locals will be EASIER for Nynaeve because she already had dark hair and dark eyes and tan skin. It's right there. in the text.
No it actually says she has red hair. Nice lie though
@@frankgalante7146 no, it actually does NOT say she has red hair. Go back and re read book 6, man. It literally says her dark hair, dark eyes, and dark skin will make it easier for the mirror of mists to hide her in Ebpu Dar. I'm not a liar, you're just a terrible reader.
@@frankgalante7146 no it doesn't. Have you read these books?
@@frankgalante7146 do you think Nynaeve is Elayne?
If I have tanned skin.. does that equal black? Or does it mean my skin is dark from being in the sun?
I thought getting to the end of this video would be hard regarding its length, but it flowed like a river. That 45 minutes passed really fast. Good job Daniel and Matt!
Çağan Kaplan - Thanks! The response from fans has been great, even the ones that haven’t agreed.
I've been watching this channel for years and I'm loving the evolution and where your creativity is taking it. I can't wait to see what these actors bring to one of my all time favorite stories. Thanks for all the work that went into this
4:00 in the books it actually points out that Rand has a much lighter skin tone that everyone else in Edmonds field. Idk how I feel about the casting other than Perrin, he’s pretty much how I expected him to look like and mat, although he might need a tan.
They're never going to get to the last book anyway.
The first argument was definitely mine. I was very unsure about Mat being white when the rest was black. Rand can look different, since he's an outsider. And I don't mind Emonds Fielders looking different from Andorans, because they're isolated anyway. But I'm still feeling hesitant. But I guess Manetheren was diverse. So yeah. Slightly less hesitant, but still a little.
Edit: as I go on through the video, I'm getting less hesitant. Seems like I did have a different image of the WoT world than the canon.
Liked because I had the exact same thoughts. AND because you admitted you were wrong to the internet, takes guts.
You don't see that tribal arguments about fantasy shows are just asinine?
Eh, dude is good at making forceful arguments and asserting interpretation opinion as fact.
I am kinda fine with cast being black cause Randland is so diverse that it doesn't really matter that much to me who's black or white but I can't stand black Elves in The Witcher show. That's so wrong on so many levels.
@@MovieJustin not really no. I hate the "oh you can buy dragons but can't buy this?" argument, because it ignores any serious criticism. Oh and I have to say that I agree with everything in the video and OP. To me diversity of people is jarring, because I spent my whole life living in all white society, so its unnatural seeing so much diversity, hence it takes reason to shape opinions. But just wanted to say that I find your argument "oh its fantasy" fallacious, simply because I will criticize a bad dragon just as anything else, even more so in fact! I HATE it how lots of fantasy tries to "pet"-anise dragons for example and will much rather have lengthy discussions over how a small cute pet dragon is something I really dislike and why. I absolutely despise how to train you dragon movies because of that, but purely because of my subjective opinion and factually those films are pretty okay, nothing seriously wrong with them, nor is there anything amazing from what I've heard other than pure enjoyment, which doesn't account for anything really. Damn was I happy to fight Kalameet in Dark Souls and have my ass handed to me, what a beautiful monster.
Fantasy has rules too, they just have to be clearly established and discussed within the work and if they are not, then obviously the work isn't that great, at least for a huge portion of us fans... This is the fallacy of this argument you people make, its based on the assumption that fantasy means "anything can happen" which is NOT true at all. The author can craft anything and everything, but he has to establish rules, even if absurd ones, but rules non the less. Once they establish the rules, we the audience expect the work to follow the established rules and get very disappointed when not, hence why so many people get very mad at some narrative choices some authors make.
Oh and I love softer magic systems too, they just have to be well established and used sparingly and correctly. You can't have a soft magic system doing lots of specific things, because then the plot holes start appearing everywhere, since by definition a softer magic system cannot explain said specific usages and they can be interpreted in many ways which usually leads to reasonings such as "by why didn't the eagles just fly them to the mount doom?"(obviously Tolkien did establish the rules for this specific case here and there isn't a plot hole, but you see what I mean). But, say in LotR, we are as readers in the minds of humans and hobbits basically, so magic is very very foreign and weird and nonspecific to us, which is why the magic works so well there. Just wanted to clear out this confusion before someone tries to make the argument that soft magic systems don't follow rules or something and how LotR is a counterexample to my argument.
I am only halfway through the video but seeing Alan Rickman's name next to Fain just makes me incredibly sad that I will never see that come to fruition because that would be phenomenal.
Yes an old pale ratfaced skinny character.
And they cast a handsome young black dude...
Does not make sense
@@yeahbee8237 Yeah... I am not sure how I will feel being attracted to Fain but I will make it work.
Honestly, I am so excited to have a more accessible way to share something that I love that I can't even focus on casting because I am so excited.
@@urturningviolet it breaks immersion for me.
But your problem is worse :p
They already have enough antagonist that are supposed to be hawt, the Forsaken you know
@@yeahbee8237 Lmao. Yeah... They made Thom too attractive in my opinion, which breaks immersion a little for me. It makes the Elayne storyline make way more sense though. Additionally, how he made a queen fall in love with him besides his sparkling personality of course.
@@urturningviolet yeah but now it doesnt make sense
Was he 12 when he banged Elaynes mum?
Elayne sees him as a father/grandfather Guy.
He is the "Merlin" stereotype (with Moraine obv) to the guys
Start off, I don't care about the race, but woke casting is a good way to succeed in Hollywood...
Great video, very strange it was so needed, but really well done. Thank you and my compliments from Italy
I’m just happy that we’re fortunate enough to get a tv show of this phenomenal story
ME TOO! Some people don't know how long we've waited for this... and it shows!
Just glad the Red Eagle(is that right?) group lost the rights as they made crap and didn't allow anybody else to do it.
the most important aspect of casting at least, in my opinion, is ''the feel'' of the character it that is the right word to use. the right actor/actress can really pull of a character even they don't lock like your head cannon or how the character is described in the source. the best example I can think of is Amos from the Expanse, when I started watching his casting was the one I disliked the most but Wes Chatham did an amazing job of portraying and now he is my favorite by far.
so as long as they went with the best actors, those who ''felt'' the most like their respective characters I think they did the right thing even if some of them might not look exactly how people envisioned them
I agree with this. Sure, you have actors who looks like they fit the character, such as Gandalf being portrayed by Ian McKellen. He fit the role so well, and did such a fantastic job playing it that he became Gandalf.
On the other side you have Ben Affleck playing Batman. Part of it was probably the writing, but he has always felt out of place to me. Christian Bale, at first glance, was a terrible fit but after Begins and Dark Knight he became iconic. Similarly you can have Brosnan playing Bond or Jackman playing Wolverine... or really any other myriad actors who came to exemplify their character.
Good actors will take the fantasy and bring it to another level. Average or shitty actors will not. Skin color is almost irrelevant, although having a white Tuon or a black Aviendha would be obvious contradictions to the descriptions in the books. I could still be fine with those kinds of changes, however, IFF they were properly sold by the actors and didn't come with any plot changes to shoehorn them in aside from purely superficial references.
Totally agree about Amos / Wes Chatham. I had pictured someone like Michael Chiklis playing the role, but Chatham’s interpretation is phenomenal, easily my favorite character on the show...and they’re all so well done.
@Goat The Expanse is a great parallel here. I read Miller as clearly older than Thomas Jane but in fact Jane works perfectly. (Not sure if the books gave any clear reason for me to think he was older, so that could be just my own head canon coming in.) Second, Belters are obviously supposed to be phenotypically different than Inners and pretty much immediately recognizable as such in the books. The show obviously can't make them look like they do in the books but that doesn't matter at all as there are many other ways to emphasize the uniqueness of being a Belter. In short, the fact that The Expanse show did so well in portraying characters that were written differently than they appear should be good evidence that the WOT casting will not be a problem.
This is the lie people tell themselves so that they can ignore the importance of world building.
Goat dud amos almost makes that show on his own (except fir the fact that all the roccie’s crew is effing awesome). I never read the books. I should. But damn did that show impress me
I do not usually add my two sense to these types of conversation as books are open to interpretation, however the fact people can still pass over words like "seldom" and "usually" and equate them to always is mind-boggling to say the least. As Wheel of Time is directed towards an adult audience and I will be the young mind here at under 20, grow up. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Quite simple. BUT let me leave you all with this very specific quote
"Egwene stood a few paces from the wisdom watching intently. Of a height with Nyneave and with the same dark coloring, she could've at that moment been a reflection of Nyneave."
-Rand's description of Egwene, Eye of the World, Chapter 3, The Peddler.
Slow claps.... so stunning, so brave. I'm going to tell my children of your heroism... lol
I agree, however on the quote, being dark doesn’t solely refer to skin color. For instance there was a group in real life called the Black Irish, and they were called that because they had Black Hair and that was a relatively rare trait in Ireland.
@Anne Day it was one example of quite a few others for some groups of white people having darker coloring than other white people.
@Anne Day again, the “see above” was an inadequate response that doesn’t disprove or even downplay my point.
@Anne Day We're talking about super isolated two rivers people - the very definition of "niche" So even if the "black Irish" are "niche," "niche" seems to be a rather apt and appropriate example.
41:30 He spends chapter after chapter describing races and his characters are always very aware what races other characters are. That is not the same thing as racism, but trying to make it sound like there are no races in his books is just false. The characters themselfs have many prejudices about the cultures and races of other peoples.
Jordan pretty explicitly said that he wanted to create a world where there was nationality based conflict as opposed to ethnic conflict. Xenophobic folks as opposed to racist folks. If you follow that line of thinking it doesn’t matter as much what someone’s skin color is when it comes to a character’s opinion of them as much as it matters where they are from.
People are just attaching their ideas of homogenous nations from our world to Randland
Jorden was more on the Nationality side of things, but dudes like the Aielmen were a race based ethnic group that was hated if I remember correctly.
@@robbomegavlkafenryka6158 Yeah, but not really because of their race. They were hated for what they did and who they were. The world just didn’t have the dynamic of race based persecution that ours developed. Xenophobia was real. Race not so much.
@@WoTMike1989 yeah, that’s the general message I was trying to convey, thanks for wording more explicitly for me.
@@WoTMike1989 I am not talking about skincolor, I am talking about races. Race and culture then gives a homogenous people.
Often skincolor is part of that but not always.
No, it is not just my own understanding of our nations that tells me this, it is my understanding of human behaviour and population genetics.
It is clear to whomever reading the books that there is often generalizations made based on physical traits. The amount of facialhair, haircolor, length, skincolor, and eyecolor to name a few.
Populations become destinguisable from other since their allelfrequency over a set of loci differes from the allelfrequency of that of other groups/races.
Jordan might have wished something else, but based on the way he describes the different nations they are different races.
I love how Matt's here droppin hot facts while Daniel hops in from time to time to talk shit like he's Matt's hype man lol
problem is the "hot facts" did nothing to address the issue
@@tonygunk4793 we clearly didnt watch the same fucking video 😂
@@adoniscreed4031 if you think those facts addressed the issues people have/had.....you're just ignorant ont he subject.
Ah, Daniel dressing to look like Brandon Sanderson to add weight to his stance.
(This is only a comment on wardrobe choices, just starting the video)
So the ancient blood of Mount Etheran is really not ancient and comes from all different places. 🙄 The Robert Jordan book art was all wrong as well.
I was just hoping for consistency and attention to detail in the tv casting and set creations, so this video definitely eased my mind on that :)
I'm not even a wot fan but you can be damn sure ill watch the hell out of a 45 min Daniel greene video
I always envisioned most of the Two Rivers people looking like many of the people I saw in Iran and Iraq. Dark haired, dark eyed and varying in skin tone. huh, guess it was just me
while Cenn Buie is dark as an old root, you have to remember that he is both an old man and someone who has spent most of his life on rooftops, in the sun. Obviously he is tanned. I Know plenty of people who are white and still dark as an old root, due to the time they spend exposed in the sun, working as farmers.
Doesn't change the fact that thoughout the books, the people of the two rivers are described as homogenous "As you quoted Elaida saying, they are "dark of hair and eye, and mostly of the same height". Homogenous. Rand detone amongst his peers, for his height and his eyes. They are a clear sign that his mother was *a stranger* (dun dun dun) !, which is something exceptional in the two rivers. So exceptional that almost nobody living in the two rivers has travelled as far as Rand Mat and Perrin in their walks (they say that they went to the mountains and that nobody travelled that far). clearly, rand being born from a stranger is something that hasn't been seen in a very long time in the area. And people notice it by how he looks different. which necessarily implies homogeneity. They could all be typed middle eastern, for all that matter. dark hairs, dark eyes. check. no issue. so long as they are homogenous.
While I generally agree, the problem with the Two Rivers is that Rand can plausibly pass for the son of a Two Rivers native. An Asian man or African man or AmerIndian man or Hispanic man can bring home a fair-haired, light-eyed, pale skinned wife, and MAYBE their kid can look just like her. But for the most part, people are going to have strong doubts if he does. People are going to assume the dad is either being a gentleman about his wife's indiscretion or is a blind fool cuckold.
One the other hand, if a swarthy white man brings home a wife who looks like that and their kid takes after her, people are much more likely to accept it.
If Tam was of a different race than Rand, Nynaeve would assume that the baby he and Kari brought home was his step-son, and tell Rand as much in the inn after she gets to Baerlon. If Tam and Rand look like members of two different races, when Rand claims the right of Aiel blood on the slope of Chaendar, Egwene's thought is not going to be "WTF?" but more like "Ooooh. That explains a lot."
I don't have a problem with the Two Rivers folk not being white. But it's clear in the text that whatever they are, it's close enough that Rand can pass for one of them, so that when he hears he is adopted, it comes out of nowhere.
That was my feeling as well. But you know that if they didn't have diversity in the "main" cast, there would be hollering up and down the internet. They could all be Asian or Hispanic or whatever, and I wouldn't care as long as they were somewhat consistent.
@@Gunleaver that's true
I don't think there's anywhere in real world Europe that satisfies the conditions set for the Two Rivers. The video forgot another important part, which is that Rand sees blonde hair for the first time in his life when he meets Ms Grimwell (Elsa Grimwell's mother).
A land in which noone has light eyes, nor blonde hair and most people don't have light skin doesn't seem any European country to me. Something like the Middle East or North Africa seems more like it. Or some fantastical place, which is what RJ did for most of his cultures and ethnicities.
So it's something like if an Iraqi war veteran came home to his little village between the Euphrates and the Tigris (Two Rivers?) with his Greek red haired wife and adopted son who ethnically was Irish. Later on that Irish son says he's Iraqi to the royal court in London, to which Elayda says "What????".
@@ryamano Pretty much. OTOH, are all Iraqis like we imagine? Are they all swarthy? Do light hair & eyes pop up there? I was kind of shocked to learn back in school that the Queen of Spain who patronized Columbus had blonde or red hair & blue eyes.
Now I'm not one to care about skin color, like whatever. However let's not pretend honey, olive, fare, charcoal dont describe a persons skin tone. It wasnt my inner monologue that made Tuon black and Matt white, there were some strong indicators in there. When they say rand looks like an Aiel I think tall, red hair, grey eyes, and light skin because apparently all Aiel look similar. Why is it such a problem that an area be all white when I imagine the seanchan to be dark skinned. Could you imagine the outrage if the seanchan appear and they're all white?
I think you're operating from a position of misconception. When translating from book to television it makes sense to figure out "okay what are things we MUST do and things we can artistically interpret". One primary characteristic about Rand is that he's tall, It's actually a core aspect to his identity Is his eye colour? Really I'd argue not so much. The person they pick MUST be tall, but doesnt necessarily need grey eyes. Nynaeve MUST be petulant and hot tempered, she doesnt need to be white.
As a showrunner you're dealing with so many limitations it seems really dumb to say "well, most of the readers probably expect them to be white so lets just do that so that their internal schemas dont feel wrong".
Saying a show will suffer because these people arent homogeneous is like saying a show is bad for using "day for night" effects. Why limit yourself when you can get away with a better sample size of actors and shots?
TL;DR the onus is not on them to make sure the characters fit what you think they look like, only to make sure the actor can act well and that their identity traits are in tact(aka, perrin's broad shoulders or rand being tall). Skin colour for nearly all the characters has very little impact on their identity from a story telling perspective.
@@wo0topia I do agree. I'm not one to care when it comes to changing a characters color from book to movie/show unless it has a definite reason. All I was saying is it is specified in the books a lot of characters skin tone and to justify the change by saying it wasnt completely clear is just a lie. When darker skinned characters show up its noted for instance matt saying tuon looks like black porcelain. When he mentioned gnarled and dark as a root I think of somone who had been a farmer there whole life and is very tan and wrinkled I dont think oh black skinned, if he wanted to say he was black then there was easy ways to describe it.
When it comes to the show I totally agree if they want to make Perrin a black guy, good on them as long as he acts his heart out I dont care what his skin tone is.
@@MrKlarc19 True that
@@wo0topia The actor they got for Rand Al'Thor is shorter than I expected, but whatevs
@@totallyjerd1751 He is 6'2. Not too bad.
But his eyes are brown, while the Mat actor has light eyes. Confusing. I am hoping for contact lenses.
*a wild Daniel appears*
"Basically you're just really wrong"
Brilliant.
You should have said "He's super effective!" to continue on the Pokemon meme...
Not brilliant. It seems unprofessional and only serves to drive away the people who disagree with him, rather than actually convince the people that disagree with him. And a lot of what Matt was saying was contradicting himself, or flip-flopping between two arguments when it was convenient. Without warning. Which serves to confuse the reader. He starts laying out evidence right after claiming that it is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that there were dark-skinned people in Emond's Field. A lot of evidence goes by, and the watcher thinks "Wow, it must really be true, then. All this evidence proves that there were DEFINITELY dark-skinned people in Emond's Field." But then Matt quickly says that all of that evidence proves the POSSIBILITY that there was a dark-skinned person in Emond's Field. A totally different argument that he didn't warn you he was making. Then he gives one point of evidence attempting to PROVE something, and says "So that proves it." But often, that doesn't prove it. It again only shows a possibility.
@@clairetellkamp6253 I disagree. They both have shown their work, and if there is someone else that can do so to refute it, they are willing to listen, as they said in their video.
IF someone is driven away by it, then they are not even trying to see it from another perspective other than "I say so." And, to be honest, those people are going to be like the Simpson's comic book guy and complain, even IF they got everything "perfect."
@@WillZuidema I recommend you find my individual comment elsewhere in this comment section. It outlines the flaws in argumentation for the first 25 minutes of this video. But that's not what's going on here. It isn't that people are refusing to listen beyond their own "I say so." I am criticizing the fact that Daniel behaves in a way that isn't conducive to maintaining a professional conversation. He says at the beginning that the diehard people against him that "leave slurs" aren't smart enough to have his conversation (already off to a bad start. He's insulting people for beliefs that differ from his based purely on his own moral ethics, rather than an objective stance. He insults the people that disagree with him the most adamantly, and in doing so can tangentially offend anyone who disagrees with him, regardless of racistness.)
As the video goes on, they make a number of claims, some of which are fine. It is true that they proved having dark-skinned people in Emond's Field was POSSIBLE, the problem came in when they failed to prove that it was GUARANTEED. They proved scientifically that it was guaranteed, but turned around and said something along the lines of "this is fiction." They failed to prove that having dark-skinned people in Emond's Field was part of Jordan's vision. Yet claimed that they had. And, as it goes on, Daniel is dismissive and catty toward "the audience" in general. Saying statements like "So... You're wrong..." and "Have you DONE your research?" These statements don't move the conversation forward, and don't help to build his position as an unbiased, professional figure. In fact, they do the opposite. That make it hard to watch the video if you disagree with him, because it appears as though Daniel is dismissing your entire viewpoint as ridiculous. Not a very effective way of holding his audience's attention. If you want to convince someone, they need to be able to hear what you are arguing. If you drive them away by making it sound like you haven't registered the fact that they function beyond Amoeba, they are going to get pissed and leave. That isn't the viewers fault, that Daniel's fault for not maintain a professional tone. And I listed a number of flawed logic jumps in that other comment. Problems with their arguments, contradictions, etc.
*looks at comments section* So it begins...
The gathering storm
A path of daggers
Some disagreement and discussion. Very scary
*channeling young Ned Stark* No, now it ends...
Winter is com.....Oh wait!
The reality is this is just cope to justify the bizarre casting choice, like sure it could maybe be possible but lets be real here the reason for the casting choice is the bizarre modern push to blackwash everything which given the actually diverse nature of the WOT as is is kinda dumb.
The casting and it's obvious pandering to people who absolutely hate everything white completely ruined it for me. RJ was a white guy and he did mention skin colour in the books when the character had a black skin like with Tuon so everyone whose skin tone was not mentioned were obviously some shade of white. Two Rivers has harsh winters meaning it is not an ideal place for dark skinned people to live in. Logic dictates that after the Breaking darker skinned people would settle in a warmer and sunnier places down south.
I'm pretty new to wheel of time, I was on eye of the world when they announced the casting, so I adapted how the actors look into my imagination while reading. I'm on knife of dreams at the moment and there's not a lot of mentions of skin tones at all. I had actually assumed that when it was pointed out that Rands hair, eyes and skin tones were different from two rivers folk I kind of continued imagining them as a mix of darker skin tones. Through most of the book so far skin colour really hasn't mattered or impacted the story line, and we should give the actors a chance to prove themselves.
When I first read Wheel of Time, I just kind of filled the Two Rivers people out with the black Irish, namely because they match each other’s descriptions to a T.
@hunter christensen yeah, especially when you consider that having a darkened complexion than a ginger is not hard.
@hunter christensen It's never mentioned because Jordan didn't consider it important. As obsessively descriptive as he was, he would have mentioned it ad nauseum had he cared.
Rand is described as beeing to light in skintone to be from the Two Rivers, by Elaida. And yeah that because he is Aiel.
Thank you and the dusty wheel for all the time and research you put into this video!!! I knew the world of rj was ethnically diverse but I definitely missed some of the subtleties of his writing when he was describing the characters of the two rivers especially since I have only listened to the audio books. Good job keep the content coming!
This is probably more research than anyone should ever have to do about a book to tv adaptation's casting. But thanks for doing it.
Lol funny coming back to this after it’s already crashed and burned
"The people of Andor are usually fair-skinned, often with blue eyes and blonde hair, though dark hair and eyes are common."
"Most of the natives of Arafel are pale-skinned and appear to have unusually large eyes."
Saldea: "The people are known for their distinctively tilted almond-shaped eyes, as well as their military prowess."
Cairhienin: "The people are shorter and more pale-skinned than Andorans, though with darker hair, and the dark colors they prefer contrast with their fair skin."
"Altarans can often be recognized by their dark hair, dark eyes, and olive complexion, but those from Ebou Dar are also easily recognized by their distinctive attire."
Murandy: "Andoreans are particularly despised, primarily due to a long history of disputes along the common border, although, close to the border the two people are almost indistiguishable except by dress."
Arad Doman: " The Domani believe they are descendants of those who made the Tree of Life, but it is the Domani women that are legendary. Copper-skinned and exceedingly graceful..."
Atha'an Miere: "The deep chocolate coloration of their skin and their unequaled grace...."
Amayar: "Physically, the Amayar are shorter and much fairer than the Atha'an Mierer, with a high percentage of yellow or light brown hair and blue or hazel eyes. Although short, on the average about equal to the people of Cairhien in height, men and women are usually rather stockily built." "Intermarriage between the Atha'an Miere and the Amayar is unknown."
Aiel : "These tall and fair-haired people...."
Ogier: "Ogier resemble humans in general build and dress, but are a genetically separate species with long tufted ears and broad, vaguely snoutlike noses. Much larger than humans, the men average ten feet in height or better with the women standing only slightly shorter."
All quoted directly from "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan & Teresa Patterson. (aka TBWB - The Big White Book).
I'd love to see Daniel's take on this, if accurate (I've not read twwb yet).
And people wonder why there are people with issues on the casting choices? Dont get me wrong fuck the racists, but also fuck this forced "diversity." All this does is divide the community, and kind of ensure its doom. Look at the numbers on the last few "forced diversity" movies in the fantasy genre and tell me it will work. I feel another dark tower coming here.
@@cladiosanchez6865 The Dark Tower kind of set itself up to fail, what with the Gunslinger's whiteness being a huge plot point going on when the one black woman constantly screams racial invective against him in the second (third?) book… With Wheel of Time, it may not be how I imagined the characters, but I can't see it as damaging to the story in any way. (And after a double take, I was o.k. with A.D. The Bible Continues casting John the Disciple and Mary Magdalene as black. After an episode or so, it just works…)
@@cladiosanchez6865 exactly
There are a bunch of quotes but I see no explanation or point being made. Yes, some people in this world have fair skin. No one is disputing that. But there are also people with dark skin. Posting a bunch of quotes is one thing, but you better have a point to make to go with them.
Love how Matt uses the one screen quotes to back up his points, would love to see some of that in your future videos, Daniel!
While I did not envision the characters this way during my reading, I don't see why people get upset about characters looking different than they may or may not have in the book. Movies and series change physical characteristics all the time.
Yeah, it's literally a non issue regardless of what was in the books.
It can be an Issue. One example: Harry Potter. In the books harry looks 99% like his father besides the eyes which are green like his mother. In the movie Harry does not have green eyes (because the actor reacted negatively to the contact lenses which is a very valid reason) and the comments telling him he looks like james are not made (as far as I watched the movies).
The problem with that deviation from the source material happened with the german version of the movie where albus tells snape "Er hat ihre augen" which can be translated to "he has her eyes", or can be translated to "he has your eyes".
That in combnation to harrys and snapes eye colour beeing very similiar in the movie lead to a large group of movie-only fans of harry potter to beleive that harry is in fact snapes son and not james.
And I as a book reader have to constantly explain to people why that is not true.....
@@Tam_Hawkins NGL that would have been the sickest twist of the century and now I'm disappointed that it's not true
I think people just fell in love with the WOT world and wanted it brought to life as close to the book as possible. So one has to ask.. why change the characteristics of that character so much? They do that a lot these days. I mean.. they made a Constantine movie with Keenu Reeves.. minus even an English accent.. which was one of the quirks of the character. But you get the idea. If they took a black character and made him white.. you'd get the same thing.
Cause we all know fantasy is only reserved for white and white-passing people/s lol
Really interesting, I never really thought of the Two Rivers as a 'tiny' town maybe a smaller town but you can tell that it is semi-well known especially for certain products it trades, not sure if I am remembering correctly but "two Rivers Leaf' or tobacco I think was one that kept coming up. Those that knew about it knew it was the best anywhere. A place that is known for a certain product is not going to be completely isolated with out any visitors or immigrants. Either way I don't care who the actors are as long as it all comes together to be even a fraction of the amazing fantasy tale as the books are. Just my two cents :)
You bring up a good point but I think youre forgetting some details.
1) Most of the main characters are FROM the Two Rivers, so the number of times Two Rivers tabac is mentioned will be inflated compared to if the main characters werent from their. Of course theyre going to seek out and prefer products from there, theyre homesick and it reminds them of home.
2) The Two Rivers (at the start, before Perrin happened) is revealed to be absolutely tiny in relation to even Baerlon, which isnt very large.
3) Gawyn, who was a very good and attentive student, only knew the Two Rivers for wool and tabac. That's it. His teacher(s) was/were tasked with preparing him to be one of the primary advisors to the future Queen and that's all they thought he needed to know about the Two Rivers.
The two rivers isn't a large town. It also isn't a small village. Emond's Field, Daven Ride, Watch Hill, and the other villages in the Two Rivers region are small villages. The two rivers is a region. But, both from the standpoint of an economy based on agriculture and from the description of the defensive gathering of people into the villages at the end of TSR, it is logical and likely that most of the people in the Two Rivers live on outlying farms, some of which are very remote from the villages, which are themselves small. The Aybarras live so far that they could not visit Perrin often when he was apprenticed. The only permanent residents of the villages would be craftsmen and tradesmen like the Luhhans, Al-Veres, and Nynaeve as the Wisdom. So the population of Emond's Field is possibly only a few hundred, but the combined population of the surrounding area is likely thousands. And while the area itself is isolated, we know that the people in this area know each other and gather on feast days. They certainly intermarry throughout the region.
Geographically, the Two Rivers region is quite large. When fleeing Emond's Field while chased by Trollocs in TEOTW, the main characters gallop on horses for multiple days, with their horses being healed by Moraine in the process so they can continue galloping. A horse can gallop at 25mph so if you gallop all day you could cover 300 miles. While it's unlikely they maintained that speed the whole time and certainly the roads do not go straight, the distance from Emond's field to Taren Ferry is probably hundreds of miles. Consider that the state of Wyoming is 276 miles north to south and 365 miles from east to west. So it's not inconceivable that the Two Rivers covers an area comparable to the state of Wyoming. Even if there are no large urban centers, the population of such an area could easily number in the tens of thousands all spread out across farms and small villages.
@Hlord1109 Obviously, there is no definitive answer as to exactly how big the two rivers is, but it is clear that it is not small. It might be smaller than Wyoming, but it is definitely bigger than Connecticut or Vermont, for instance. Another bit of evidence is that many people in Emond's field don't know anybody in Taren Ferry and have never been there. A well trained horse can carry a rider 50+ miles in a day, even without the one power. If travelling to Taren Ferry was only a day on a horse, it's hard to believe that the trip is not taken more often. That leads us to believe that it must be hundreds of miles to Taren ferry. As to population, it stands to reason that people would settle in good farming locations that are as near to the villages as possible. Unless good spots for farms are very sparse, this means that there must be a lot of farms since some of the farms are more than a day's travel from the nearest village.
On a side note, the described climate of the Two Rivers does not seem to be compatible with growing the modern, real world tobacco plant, which prefers warm and dry climates and is susceptible to late frosts. But that is a minor quibble, since it's easy to believe that the plant they grow in the two rivers is substantially different than the modern, real-world plant.
@Hlord1109 Definitely a fair criticism. It's not possible to know exactly how motivated people were to travel. However, the fact that travel to Taren Ferry is rare is a secondary to the fact that it takes a few days for the heroes to reach Taren Ferry in the beginning of TEOTW.
Frankly, the casting look like they can portray the personality and mannerisms of the characters, that's what is most important
Like Samual Jackson being casted as Nick Fury.
I always assumed that 23:48 it was referring to a dark tan of someone who worked long days outside.
same
That’s a pretty dark tan. Never known anyone to get such a dark tan
Bingo - another point glossed over as quickly as Jordan's list of Actors he envisioned in the roles ...
@Robertson Thirdly and still a roofer... He's going to be dark as hell
OK, while this may not be the case here, HOLLYWOOD HAS PUSHED THE EXACT 'VAGUE' AGENDA ON MULTIPLE IP'S, it is not unheard of to think this. In 2012, it would be unheard of. But now? it's almost expected - again, not saying that is what is happening with this show, just pointing out that it is reasonable to have that hesitation based on recent history in Hollywood
@David Morand Good! Of course not everything that has come out recently has adhered to the trend I was referencing. I was just stating that this video stated that it was completely ridiculous to think they would choose diversity over quality, even at the expense of quality. It's not. I hope the best for this show as I read the series multiple times and am looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
They still look like CW actors, fight me
I'd fight you, but my only fighting move is to turtle and soil myself. That and they actually all do look like CW actors.
Well, they're all late teens, which is canon.
Fairly true.
Like I wouldn't enjoy looking like Stephen Amell
I liked the video and it had a lot of good points, but can you please address the part where later in the series there were so many girls that were strong with the one-power coming from the Two-Rivers area. The cause of this was said because the blood of Manetheran was strong in the area, and was not diluted because it was so cut off. Other areas that Manetheran covered did not have the same concentration of girls strong in the power, because they were not as isolated as the Two-Rivers. I also got the impression that the Two-Rivers were very xenophobic and distrustful of outsiders.
They grew up with three Taveren, maybe the pattern spat out more chanelers
I think people developed many more powers simply because the times dictated it. For example, Perrin’s ability to speak with wolves. Egueain’s ability to dream. The two rivers area may have just been a catalyst for these abilities. Sorry about the spelling. Even the discovery of the kin play into this.
I didn’t get the impression that they were xenophobic but they were mostly cut off from the rest of the world for hundreds of years, and few women went to the tower from there so the talent spread and wasn’t weeded out like in other places.
That's exactly the impression I got with Two Rivers folk. Perhaps it's my own projection but I'm re-reading TEOTW right now to my son (11yo) and can't help notice that those Two River folk did not get out much. They talk about Taren Ferry, being chased by a Draghkar. They cross it and the Two Fielders fully reveal this is as far as most have every gone before (Tam is an exception of course). As for ppl coming in and out of the 2R's? Padain Fain was the regular. Traders must have also come for the Tabac which is famous in other lands but at the same time, Morgase, Queen of Andor implied that a tax collector had hardly been sent there for years. And of course, the blood of Manetheren that turned a hodgepodge of farmers into a fighting force that could repeal Trollocs and Fades under the direction of Perrin. And, then there was the old blood of a General running through Mat. If there was just a few generations of more recent diversity, then Manetheren blood would have meant nothing when facing the Trolloc attack. This all hints strongly at a homogeneous set of people. Compare this to Europe. All interconnected and separate kingdoms for years, yet a fair share of regional likeness. Mediterranean Italians look vastly different to Scandinavians and the physical size of Jordan's main continent is big - 3000 miles from Falme to The Spine of the World and 2700Miles from Illian to the Mountains of Dhoom. So yeah, given the size of this place and the time spans here? I'd say diversity got kinda fenced in. Heck, in My Fair Lady, an accent could be picked from just a particular location from one part of London. I would not call 2R's xenophobic like we think the word means today. They displayed isolationist attitudes towards even other towns within the 2r's. Whether from Watch Hill or Taren Ferry, there appeared to be uniqueness of views (but they were more alike they they were ready to admit when the Trollocs came). And BTW, most in the 2r's thought Trollocs were just stories - again strongly hinting they had isolationist views. Most of them would not accept the existence of a Trolloc at all until Winter's Night.
Compare to Tolkien who clearly set lines in the sand. The Hobbits, were well described and different BUT notice when Sam and Frodo go across the farmers field and Sam says, we have never been past this point. Same thing with 2r folks. Not saying they are physically as different as Hobbits but I do know this - there's no mass communication and no mass transport, planes, trains and automobiles. There's definitely trade but no, there's no long commutes to a place to work on a freeway. People get and make what they really need from where they live. They may trade things like Tabac but I highly doubt there's a "made in Andor" on every sticker for a table, a wagon, a utility, of any kind.
So much info. Having just finished the series recently I enjoyed all the knowledge being dropped
@24"00 BTW Cenn Buie being described as gnarled and dark could also mean metaphorically "dark in his mood" since he's compared to an old root. Why? Because when he answers Tam who says, "Have you become a soothsayer, then, interpreting omens?" Tam said dryly. "Or do you listen to the wind, like a Wisdom? There's certainly enough of it. Some originating not far from here". Straight away, Cenn says "Mock if you will but if it doesn't warm enough for crops to sprout soon, more than one root cellar will come up empty before there's a harvest. By next winter there may be nothing left alive in the Two Rivers but wolves and ravens, If it is next winter at all. Maybe it will be this winter" - so yeah he's in a dark mood or frame of mind and if this is a evidence that people in the Two Rivers are dark of skin or at least, diverse of color, it's not really a proof. It helps to always quote things in FULL context. And BTW this is not a Bible exegesis where one text can bring interpretation and context to another text. Context is everything and obviously, no proof here, the context of Cenn's mood is likely more relevant. In the second quote, the metaphor is obviously self explained but that does not mean the same rule of interpretation must be true for the first quote. The first quote, as shown in context of Cenn's reply shows him to be in a dark mood.
And one last thing. Quoting any sentence that hints at skin tone. Some are more clear than others. For example WoT bk 5 ch 39 5th paragraph; " Nynaeve saw faces as pale as that of any Andorman and as dark as that of any Sea Folk, some clean, some dirty, and coats with high collars.....". It continues later in the paragraph, "A bare chested man in a bright yellow sash, skin a deeper brown than aged wood and hands intricately tattooed, had to be one of the Sea Folk, though he wore neither earrings nor rose ring.".
So there's a passage that's really quite clear about what the typical Andorian and Sea Folk look like as opposed to Daniel Greene's interpretation gymnastics taken out of context and ill compared from two passages that happen to use the metaphor of a gnarled dark root quite differently.
Obviously your brain is not capable of keeping up with this level of conversation.💀💀☠😂😂😂
DAMN DANIEL!!
It was such an amazingly savage burn 😆
As someone who went entirely though the series in audiobook format, I feel the main reason people think of the two rivers folk as white is because, for the most part, their skin color is never said but whenever we see a new people, theres an emphasis on either how pale or how dark their skin is. I think the two rivers folk's skin color is mentioned once. So people ended up equating it to Elayne and Gawyn cause Andor. That's just my 2 cents though
altoguy16499 It’s probably also that most people tend to default to the dominant/majority group which usually means that if nothing else is stated the character is percieved as white, straight, able-bodied, etc.
There's a scene in one of the books where it literally says that Egwene's skin is not much darker than a white flower. Or something to that effect. I can't recall the exact quote.
Fanghur Rahl book and page?
@@s.d.rockl.8166 Eye of the World, Chapter 53 I believe. I'll paste the relevant passage:
----------------------
Rand turned to watch Lan go, and found Egwene standing there.
“Changed your mind about what, Rand?”
He snatched up his shirt and coat, suddenly feeling the cool. “I’m going away, Egwene.”
“Where?”
“Somewhere. I don’t know.” He did not want to meet her eyes, but he could not stop looking at her. She wore red wildroses twined in her hair, flowing about her shoulders. She held her cloak close, dark blue and embroidered along the edge with a thin line of white flowers in the Shienaran fashion, and the blossoms made a line straight up to her face. They were no paler than her cheeks; her eyes seemed so large and dark. “Away.”
----------------------------------------------
Now, clearly this can't be literally true, as not even an albino is that pale, so there's at least some poetic licence going on there. But the implication is pretty unmistakable: Egwene has a very light skintone. Which is further supported by the fact that it is made clear on countless occasions that it is extremely easy to tell when Egwene (and Perrin) is embarrassed, because she turns red very noticably, which on darker-skinned people is much more difficult to notice.
@@fanghur I was pretty sure she also experienced some sunburn while in the waste but I can't remember the citation for it or anything. I will try to notice it on my next reread but I have been going through them the last few months and didn't think to write it down this time it could be a year or more before I reread them again.
Can I say I love the map of the WOT world behind you!! It is so detailed; much more so than you see in the books. It is available for purchase, on a smaller scale of course.
I am looking at the actors RJ himself selected to play the two rivers characters when asked by a fan. This was glossed over in the 45 minute presentation. They were Ben Affleck for Rand, James Garner for Mat, Val Kilmer for Perrin, Audrey Hepburn for Egwene and Jacqulin Bisset for Nynaeve. These are actors who have northern European origins (Scotland, France, England, etc.). In fact the list in total only list Tuon (Hallle Berry) and Semirage (Naomi Campbell or Trya Banks) as Black. There are some Italians and one Arab (Omar Sharif as Demarand). There are no Asians or Hispanics at all, including Lan Liam Neeson. Avienda was Sophia Loren, Elayne (Andor) was Nicole Kidman, Min (Andor) is Isabella Rosssini (Italian). Therefore Robert Jordan's own vision of Andorans and Emonds Fielders was European. So all this fictional genetic stuff and the generalizations pulled from the book, which don't say specifics about skin color are just arguements against the people who are concerned (correctly) that the characters have been miscast
Exactly all the proof you need
well sir do you value the origin so much rather than actually getting a GOOD actor/actress it literally does not matter perrin's story/character does not change with his skin colour it literally has zero impact on the story
There are lots of good actors. I do value the book more than just picking one that does not accurately reflect the book. And it has a huge bearing on the story. The story is set in a old Europe kind of situation where you could tell Germans from Spaniards from Swedes, etc. it helped create the other place idea. The choice they made makes it seem any modern day US city. Once you eliminate the suspension of belief, then other things start to fall. Like giving Tom a guitar instead of a flute and harp. The path to mediocrity is in full swing
@@terryrogers8304 I mean RJ literally said that most of two rivers is has darker shade skin also a better actor is better than looking at their skin colour
Skin color has nothing to do with acting. There are plenty of opportunities in later seasons to include all kinds of skins colors , but not in the two rivers. Dark is relevant. Tanned Italians are dark compared to Norwegians. The fact remains that the actors RJ wanted to play his characters from the two rivers were of English, Scottish and Germanic origins. This was a PC move to be inclusive in season one, because the characters in book one didn’t have enough ethnicity to make the producers happy. Moiraine is supposed to be very short as she is Cairhienin. They hired someone who is 5’10”. Ok, so you can fix it with CGI, but why waste your budget. Hire someone who is 5’0. Everyone is acting like the people who want accuracy are bigoted. This is about accuracy, not race.
I always thought of the Aiel as being similar to the Fremen of Dune at least as a trope - like the fantasy analog of the Bedouin.
I got fairly recently into the wheel of time, and got back into dune with the movie coming out, and the Aiel do indeed share common traits with the fremen. notably the desert warrior aspect - and of course their role as the true believer army of the chosen one.
The Aes Sedai also have a few parallels to the bene gesserit, with their political influence as counselors to many rulers, their reputations as witches and manipulators and of course the fact that they are all female - the major difference being of course the fact that aes sedai are largely celibate while bene gesserit have concubine on their resume.
Where I'm at in the series ATM it's not confirmed, but there were a few hints that Aes sedai with the foretelling directed the circumstances that led to rand's birth.
Lots of thematic parallels questioning chosen ones and their destructive potentials too.
@@maximeteppe7627 I’m re-reading both at the same time, and had this exact thought. Also, they both (Fremen and Ariel) use “Shaitan”. I know that’s used a lot, but they both said it within a couple of days of my reading, and it triggered the thought.
Aiel are not descendants of Muslim nomads though, which the Fremen are.
@@ZackeTheBrute and Moiraine isn’t an angel the way Gandalf is in LotR...they’re still the old mage mentor pushing the protags out in the world to adventure. We’re talking archetypes here. Of course the specifics are gonna vary.
@@maximeteppe7627 Very true, but i was just objecting to the beduin part. The Aiel are many things, but freedom before all else nomads they are not. The similarities are superficial at best. If we are talking Fremen it's a whole other story.
I am very happy to announce that YOU MISSED ONE! :P Rahvin was explicitly dark skinned and as Gaebril he was able to pose as an Andoran Lord without anyone questioning anything. And its not likely he was using compulsion on literally anyone who got within visual range when he's hobnobbing - in fact we know for a fact he wasn't doing that because he doesn't use it on Mat - he evidently believed his appearance was not cause for suspicion, and appears to have been correct.
Oh and checking the wot.fandom wiki, when he styled himself as Lord Gaebril he claimed to be from....The Mountains of Mist!
Yes! Love this. Robert was extremely inconsistent in terms of dropping clues linking the phenotypes of various nationalities (apart from the Aiel, Sea folk, Carhienin and latterly the Sharans)
He didn’t get miss these things out by accident or get confused. He is telling us that in his world these things rarely matter.
Good catch! Love it
Rahvin was never once, anywhere, described as being black or in any way non-white. Every culture or character from a culture that was non-white - the Sea-Folk primarily but also some of the Seanchan - were specifically described as such and their skin colour was an important part of their description.
@@Matt_Alaric Youre wrong. ''Rahvin was said to be as handsome as Lanfear was beautiful, with an insatiable appetite for the company of beautiful women. He had black hair, which was white at the temples. He was dark of complexion, with nearly black eyes. He was also noted for having a remarkably large stature; taller than Rand al'Thor, according to Mat, but with broader shoulders and a deeper chest.'' - Wot wiki. Why is it so important to you that he is white, even to the point of stating completely false shit? No one is saying he is completely black like Tuon, which was described because that WAS rare on the continent, he was however NOT white.
@Wirrn Get in. What a fact. Sound. 5/5
I remember reading in one of the books that Nyaneve had caught one of the emonds fields non main girls rolling in the hay with a merchants guard so they weren't that isolated
The Milk man use to make deliveries too.. it did not change the general look of an entire town.. js.
Dammit CZcams, this closing the comments whenever an ad comes up is really pissing me off.
45 minutes of Daniel? Yes please! Personally I'm not too bothered about race, as long as the actors are the best for the role that's all that matters.
When I read the first book I got the feeling that the village was quite humongous (humongous not white) as Rand stood out so much from everybody else. In my head Rand is a lighteyed pale tall ginger (like me) and most om Two Rivers are more eastern European whit darker eyes and hair. I don't get the feeling that the skin tones varies to much because then Rand wouldn't really stand out that much for his eyes and hair.
I really hope the actors are great I want the show to be good, I just think it is strange that the 4 not counting Rand don't look like they come from any place near each other., it is not wanting them white it me wanting them looking a little more alike.
Hi I've got a four-month-later correction for ya, hate to be pedantic but the word you're looking for is "homogeneous". "Humongous" means really really big. I was really confused by this comment until I figured out what you meant lol
@@ezrawyrd9275 Aha sorry about that, English being a second language and me being barely literate at the best times makes me write wrong sometimes :)
I didn't understand what he meant a first because of that error.
As a Eastern European i just wanted to drop by and say you have a wrong image of people from this area. As a native i can tell you the "darker skin, dark eyes, dark hair" image you have fits to a certain minority ( with genetic origins in Asia) who make up less than 2% of the population. Fun fact: a lot of Hungarian and Ukrainians are fair with red hair, Romanians are mostly brown (chestnut) colored haired ( but we have blue eyed gingers, blondes, and some brunettes) with hazel or medium brown eyes (and some green, gray or blue eyes). It's hard to spot the average eastern european in a european crowd. Now the Mediterranean people are somewhat darker although i've been to Greece and Hungary and the difference is not that great.
@@SilkyCayla I am sorry, I didn't say skin but I was then still wrong about eyes and hair.
I am apparently a bit too ignorant. I been to Greece but that was as very young, I thought they had generally darker hair and eyes then Scandinavia where I hail from but I can't trust so old memories. Sorry my friend.
1. honestly, skin color is the Least important trait of the characters (Except for Rand's hair /eyes), I mean, Nyneave Better have a good braid she can yank on!
2. What does Robert Jordan's wife think about the casting? That's as close as we'll get to knowing what Robert Jordan would have thought.
When first I read the wheel of time and saw the descriptions of the people from the Two Rivers, those descriptions were familiar to me and invoked very specific images.
Dark and Fair are frequently used in the West of Ireland to describe peoples from different local regions.
The people from the region I grew up in are typically described as dark, adults have black hair and often appear to be tanned even in winter. While those in the east are fair where adults are mostly blond and rarely have what would be recognised as a tan even in summer.
Prior to the recent waves of immigration the term 'Black Irish' described a very specif set of bloodlines, the oldest blood lines are typified by Dark Hair, Dark Eyes (Even the Greens and Blues) and a darker skin tone.
These regional characteristics persist despite the Irish being an extremely homologous population and benefiting from almost 400 years of isolation from the rest of Europe during the Celtic Golden Age (Cultural Isolation) .
These regional characteristics exist today almost exactly as they were recorded in the 'Book of Invasions' (4th Century History of Ireland). That is roughly one and a half thousand years.
It is entirely possible that the differences in skin tone was more pronounced when the 'Book of Invasions' was written, but it is impossible to decipher. The book is written in Irish and the Irish language, despite having a unique word for almost every conceivable notion, has no words to describe skin colour.
One thing that came to mind with the reference to "the bloodline of Manetheren" is that fact that currently 1 in 200 men on Earth are male-line descendents of Genghis Khan, and this includes quite a few "white Europeans". This from a man living 750 years ago. Having descent from an entire nation 2,000 years in the past? Nowhere is it said that it's exclusive descent.
So my sister and I did the 23&me thing, they showed very slight variances but listed us as being close enough to be siblings. I am about as white as one can get, think the palest white skinned red head you have ever seen only I have brown hair and hazel green eyes, my sister, and my dad, have olive skin close to Kim K's with dark brown hair and brown eyes. As it turns out when you mix majority German, Irish, Polish, and Armenian you can get all kinds of combinations for skin, hair and eye color. My dad, sister and I all have very slight epicanthic folds on our eyelids denoting some Asian heritage, given that we did have the marker for being decedents of a Mongolian heritage that makes a bit of sense.
That's only speculation. It seems that around Dshingis Khans time a male had a genetic marker that is today found in 0.5% of males. Dschingis Khan probably was extremely prolific, what with having 500 wives and probably having fun in his conquering, too.
Who else watched this whole video who hasn't read a single page of Wheel of Time? lol
Loved this video, very well researched. Great job!
His notes , not in books. I wish they would recast. None of those actors fit the Books. His notes are irrelevant, they were not put into the book