A Conversation about The Wheel of Time Casting Controversy with Fandom
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- Daniel Greene will join us to discuss the Casting Controversy that swept into Wheel of Time fandom. We invite Wheel of Time fandom to have a conversation with us. Phone lines will be open.
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• Wheel of Time Casting ...
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I totally meant Perrin, not Mat, when I said being burly. Man, I was so nervous calling in! Loved the experience, and I really, REALLY enjoyed the caller that called in after me! Her perspective was fantastic and something a non-minority hasn't really ever had to experience... you could hear the emotion in her voice, and it was so moving. Eye opening moment. Great content & discussion!
ashamael - No worries, we understood! And all of the callers were great. What a wonderful show last night brought to us by the fans. I really appreciate it.
I loved this stream thankyou! Hoping for more collabs with Daniel, you guys work well together!
Amanda of House Robinson - That was so much fun. Maybe we’ll do something non-WoT related next.
@thedustywheel Hi Matt, if you discuss this topic again, please please have me on. I loved this episode and the video you did with Daniel, and would enjoy continuing our discussion of this from WoTCon.
Them all together in the thumbnail is absolutely fantastic! They just WORK together!
this is an interesting channel, Your's and Daniel's as well. I read the books as they were coming out in the 90's and then switched to audio books on tape...eventually a repurchased them all on Audible. I really enjoyed the series, i have probably listened to it twice. I had no idea this community was out there. Thanks for sharing.
The video You and Daniel did earlier and the stream were both so great to watch. Jens call brought me to tears, and I’m so glad there are people out there that get to see representation in something they love so much. You all put so much research and care into the videos, and it really shines through. Thank you for making those videos, I hope the wheel weaves amazing things for you both and for the rest of the world.
Tyler Telford - Very kind of you! Monday was an unforgettable kind of day, made even more so by Jen’s call.
Saw this on Daniel Greene channel. I am a black man and I was sceptical about the casting. Thank you for this. It's cleared up a lot for me.
Also, thanks for your non confrontational tone and for not lumping all sceptics as racist, which would be ironic in my case
Thanks, Robin. I'm used to disagreeing about something with every fellow fan about The Wheel of Time, whether about Asmodean or any other topic, so I hope it felt earnest and not disrespectful, as you said.
Hey cool, I am dyslexic too. Though I had three years of private tutoring to help with my dyslexia when I was younger, so really all my dyslexia means anymore is I just read slow. Which only really affects me in the way that I can't watch subtitled anime because I read too slow for subtitles.
From an acting standpoint, I hope beyond hope that Zoe is actively pulling her natural braid listening to wig talk.
John Allen - their mannerisms have got to be there, right?
Let's face it - Robert Jordan was waaaay more concerned about the fabric, cut, and color of peoples clothing than about peoples skin color.
He probably wouldn't have cared much about the casting as long as the actors are good at their jobs, but would've had endless discussions with the costume department about the amount of lace on any given coat.
I hope the costume department knows how much rests on their shoulders 😁
We fans know what a Domani dress looks like and if they make them look Andoran we'll not be quiet about it!
pieniaurinko - I was just reading about the Seanchan, so much silk and birds. Yeah, the Costuming Department, I hope THAT is distinct in all the ways Jordan described.
Claire P - Haha...we are certainly not a quiet fandom about what matters most to us (Asmodean). :)
pretty much any time he goes in depth on detail about culture skin tone is brought up and compared to other near by cultures. its just that what people wear takes a lot more to describe than skin color
never said or thought it had any negative connotations, just brought more diversity to the world in an organic and believable way
say is there a possibility for next time to add subtitles in the full release, my girlfriend is hard of hearing ( needs hearing aides to hear what one is saying) so having subtitles would help as she like WOT aswell and I would love to show this vid. and the auto translate is gonna be gone soon ( thanks youtube) and is seriously lacking
sven johanns - I can see what we can do about pre-recorded videos. I appreciate you leaving this note.
You guys did an absolutely wonderful job on both of these videos, on a touchy subject, to some people. Personally, I feel this cast should be the most diverse of any series in the history of TV. It should start with young, unknown, actors, going out into the best world a book series has ever built. This entire series is about different cultures, different races, different traditions. Not once does RJ ever make an issue about the color of a person's skin. He cared more about the color of dresses, than skin color. If only we could live in a world like that. I loved the caller Jenn! I love the casting for Nynaeve! I think Zoe is going to do a fabulous job, as will the rest of the cast. Great job, again, guys! Hope you find the root that Pips stole, Daniel.
Paul Kinkel - Thank you! Can’t agree more. The fact that we fans are tied up in our current day concepts of “race” for a fantasy that takes place many many thousands of years in the future will always shock me. But I don’t envy the costuming department!
ugly, angry, devoid of charisma, and non-White as their corporate overlords demand. What a joke.
I recon the boss lady from suits(i think her name is Jessica, but I can't remember for sure) would be a good aes sedi, as I remember her being very in control and regal, and that she was confident in her own power.
That's Gina Torres and I agree. She has been my headcanon for an Aes Sedai for a long time. Simply the way she carries herself onscreen.
I can't get enough of Lan actor's chin. They could've just shown his chin and I would've given it a 10/10 casting.
Please please please do an episode on portraying Randland politics on the show. Rand sticking it to the 1% is so deliciously contemporary, I can't imagine the show wouldn't wanna capitalize.
Anahita - I wonder who I could bring in as a guest for a political discussion. I need to remember this, because it could be a very interesting series of shows. Thanks for the suggestion!
i feel he also props up and helps even some of the bad 1% because he sees it as for the greater good. would def be interesting to get into
Wait! Have the producers talked about sticking it to the 1% because I don’t do political shows for entertainment and will not watch a show with that kind of attitude. Please tell me they didn’t do this.
@@brianvperez No they didn’t. The book series has nothing to do with today’s political unrest. The last book was written in 2013 . I was over the Moon about the diversity of the cast. I’m worried about them getting Matrim’s hat right .
Such a good age for Fantasy in TV
The Witcher, Wheel of Time, LOTR and even more in development
Ian Krohn - It’s very exciting. I hope this will bring in many more fans. Such a fun time to be alive for fantasy geeks.
It is stated in the book that Two rivers people have a distinct look which is why Rands hair and eyes stick out. Two rivers is very isolated. They havnt even seen a tax man nor realized they were part of andor.
Didn't watch it live cuz in my country it is on at 3 in the morning...
I would just like to make the same point as old Shad from Shadiversety...
I hope Rand does not have a Katana as his sword. It should be a 2 handed Falchion...
Lan may have a Katana though...
Especially the "Raven Sword"
Another thing for the agelessness part- people in am era like in the WoT would also look much older than what we would presume them to be because of nutrition, sun exposure, lack of skincare etc
Thank you two for making that video. I watched it in it’s entirety and was very enlightened on many notes and details I previously did not know. But, the one thing I did grasp in my many rereads of the books was that Robert Jordan created a vastly diverse world. I must admit, even being a black woman, that I had a knee jerk reaction of shock when I saw the casting of “darker” complected actors to play a few of the Emond’s Field 5, but being that my only prerequisite for any of the actors were to be good actors, I made my peace with it very quickly. My only real reaction was worry over whether or not the fandom as a whole would accept them. I feel many have come around, but I thank you and Daniel for giving evidence, or showing lack there of, to hopefully make it okay for other to make their peace with it too.
Call Me Nakomi - You are welcome! And, the reaction to the video has been overwhelmingly positive; I’m not sure what I expected, but that has been wonderful outcome. Thank you for posting your reaction to the video!
The Dusty Wheel - That was a long time coming, my thoughts and opinion on the subject. I posted about it months ago on a Facebook group, when the casting first happened, and got mixed reactions. Safe to say the amount of negative responses and severity of some of the language used made the group ban conversations about race completely. I wanted to do a video about it once I got my channel up and running, but it wasn’t until you and Daniel gave me the “receipts” that I felt I could bring more to a video than just my opinion. Thank you two for laying the foundation.
At first when I saw the castings for the EF5 I had a weird not-so-sure-about-that reaction but after looking into them and rereading some passages in the books/the wiki I realized that races are not important, except for Aiel. Rand fits the bill and if they avoid very fair/redhead actors for EF it gets the point that he might be from elsewhere/another culture across and that's perfectly fine. My favorite EF5 character is Perrin. I imagined him white while reading. So what, Marcus Rutherford fits him close enough in every other aspect for me, I'm good. I screencapped him from a scene in Obey (I think) and photoshoped him into Perrin with Hopper when we got the news. [ imgur : /a/8E9P7Qb ]
For the world building, clothes, accents, traditions, architecture, weaponry etc are way more important than race/color to bring the different cultures alive.
Seb C - Hoping they spend a lot of time on world building. That will make all the difference. Thanks for your comment!
Great actors will bring a great story for the audience. I’m not worried. The tv show will be a smashing hit
Dale Henrickson - Agreed! Somewhat nervously excited to see them act as these characters. So hopeful they will be able to pull it off.
woke always fail
The Cenn Buie = Uncle Ruckus thing does raise the question: Is he Tarien, or does full-body vitiligo run in the family?
This is brilliant
Great quote from Robert Jordan about the Aiel, it shows that the world is a fantasy world, inspired by a lot of sources , but a lot is also made up does not have to make complete sense, such as the Aiel.
I also liked the comment in the video about queen Ishara, the first queen of Andor and how it is mentioned in the books that the was of darker skin and that all nobles count their lines from here. That is a book reference indicating that there seems to be people of different colors in Andor. My impression from the begining was that race or skin color didn't matter to Jordan, I liked the cast so far and I'm happy you guys answer some of the concerns and some false facts being thrown around at the moment.
Great research by you guys and great videos! Thank you for all the great content being made about WoT at the moment :D
Ulmo90 - Thank you! I hope fans in general can accept the real diverse populations of the majority of Randland. The quotes from his notes about the various nations show just how much thought he put into that. And why such little, if any, racism existed in the end of the Third Age.
I dont think race mattered to him much byt he def made it a point to give over skin colors to each culture when describing them. so even though Randland is very diverse each culture has an overall skin color. except for places like Tar Valon where it is blatantly stated to be extremely diverse which would could have less impact if every place is show to be just as diverse in the show
Lan is cast as a younger guy because the physicality needed for an older guy is an issue, and if the show goes over 10 years, you cast a guy in his mid 50's and expect him to do many of his own stunts and look the part, you're ending the series with a man in his mid 60's and expect him to do the same.
Lan was born in 953 Making him 47 years old, Daniel Henney is 40, this casting is not a problem at all.
@@daroe2340 Exactly. The books say that he's old enough to be Nynaeve's father. But you have to remember that people had children much younger in that culture than in ours
I think Daniel is a great choice. I still would have preferred Mads Mikkelsen as i loved his performance in King Arthur and Polar, but i think Daniel will do well, one of the few cast picks i agree with.
You know in a movie when they show the character back when they were younger in a flashback? That's how I always thought they could do the ageless look: take an older actor and put young-looking makeup on them. Or just cast very young-looking older actresses.
As someone with no skin in the game (I have not read WoT but am a DG subscriber), I really appreciated the way you both have responded to the fan community, addressed and discussed these issues, and are open to differences in opinion.
Thanks Caitlin!
I care much more about accents, I hope each region sounds different but similar for those who grew up there. Once you cast Moraine, all other Carhrien should be English accent. I hope Daniel H keeps his American accent for borderlanders. And the have Saldara as Texas accent as a nod to RJ.
David Gregory - honestly...it’s going to be so odd if they keep the Seanchan southern drawl. Lol. It will be interesting!
I licked the light button and smashed that subscribed button now my screen is broken and sticky
Magnus Lind - I hope it was worth it!
@@TheDustyWheel burn me that was terrible. too much wine, I apologize
@24:30 Yes you can. And please do!
Duder Dudeington - Maybe I’ll come back with a deeper dive into the skin color break downs.
as long as the two rivers group all appears to have the same cultural and behave like friends that have know each other since birth I don't care what they look like
the thing that is going to upset me the most is how you say the names of Cities, Countries, and people, they are not the way I say it in my head
Scott Paterson - I bet that’s a lot of training that the actors have to go through: pronunciation. And even then with different cultural accents there will be some differences. And I personally am terrible at it. :)
This is an important consideration for fans to have. If we look back to Harry Potter, a lot of head cannon changed to match the film. More importantly the films sets head cannon for new readers. So Mat's skin tone doesn't matter, but how he is portrayed does. If he is played as a clown, he will forever be read that way. If he is loyal/romantic then his humor will be lost to generations. And, yes, how Mat looks, will be people's head cannon for years to come, as well.
As long as the shows good they will all be cemented as headcannon
Agreed. The show will set headcanon on everything, especially for new readers. I'm hope characterizations will be done well. Though, I'm confident we will be addressing small changes (and maybe larger ones) for years to come, no matter how hard they try. As Sanderson proved, as soon as it is out of the author's hands, and into other hands, it is changed.
Matt is an innkeeper you can trust.
Destro - Hah, Thanks. I’m going to do my best to get skinnier...so people start wondering.
I hope they get the Aes Sedai and Tar Valon culture right. I wonder how they will do the agelessness
Maybe give them (Aes Sendai) Botox .😊
I’m caucasian, but when I read the books I always pictured Perrin and Nynaeve as darker skinned because of the way their hair was described. The only surprise for me in the casting was the actress playing Egwene but that doesn’t bother me. What actually bothered me was like that caller said, the color of Barneys eyes! But then again I’m also someone who didn’t like the casting of Daniel Radcliffe for Harry Potter because of his eyes and we all know how wrong I was in that regard. Lol. This time I’m just going to wait and see how they do before I complain about casting choices.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think the acting and writing will be the thing I won't be able to get over...really hoping it's done well.
it could be about protecting themselves from old enemies, so they just have wives within the community maybe?
I grew up reading the Wheel of Time, reading the books as they came out, (I always sorta envisioned Kristin Kreuk as Egwene, but that's just my head-cannon). I would always tell others that i hope they NEVER try and adapt TWOT because of how hard I imagined it would be to get it right. At first, I was questioning the casting of the show, because everyone knows the Two Rivers folk were darkly complected white people. Mostly from cover art. But lets be honest, the cover art for the books, especially the earlier ones, were garbage. After listening to the audio books twice since the cast announcement, I figured out how wrong my head-cannon was. I just hope the show is good. Please be good...
Rick D - Please be good. Please be good. Please be good. Amen. :)
For the Caller Jen, there is someone somewhere that worked in casting this that is standing taller based solely on your call, I am a white guy much like the hosts here and to my shame it never occurred to me that it could be such a meaningful thing to someone. Like most people i read the characters as white, i mean the people on the cover were white so why not i guess, but Race has never been much of a concern to me tbh, this is sadly a Can of Worms topic that shouldn't be, so many bigger things to worry about imo.
Greg Hearn it’s interesting, because people of colour have been saying this for years and years to deaf ears. We have to go far out of our way to find positive role models in stories, pictures, books, tv and film for our children. Seeing yourself in your heroes is so important to building positive self-esteem in young people. The socialisation in which stereotypes and bigotry is taught starts from infancy, through recurrent explicit and implicit tropes about how mystical brown-skinned natives, as compared to the pink-cheeked maidens and silken-haired princes around whom the rest of the world always revolves. Sadly, the genre in which real-world racial politics should matter least, fantasy, has long been one of the worst for persistently excluding a lot of non-white fans.
@@jamiecare1042 I hope this is something that will truly get better, even in a case like this most will say they are fine with heros of any race or gender when it's a new story, it's more of a problem with changes to an existing one. I guess we all see the world through a tunnel unique to how we were raised or where we were born. I worry about a case like starwars where the character Rey is not liked by the older fandom, will the exects understand that she is unliked because she wasn't developed properly or will they see it as guys don't want a female lead in star wars?
I always thought that Perrin was Black based on the modern cover from Towers of Midnight where he holds the hammer haha
I was so worried that Rand wouldn’t have red hair. And I never really care when they change the races of characters. But, lately Hollywood has been replacing ginger actors with African American actors in a ton of shows and movies.
We don’t have many hero’s or characters that represent us. I was so happy when I found WoT, because I was 12 and I finally had the main character that looks like me. I mean really looks like me, height, hair, and eye color.
Finally you guys did a great job with this video and the 45 minute one. I’ve watch both all the way through.
Oh man! I so love you guys! As a smol, underrepresented, brown girl I'm so happy that two white dudes are championing the fact that the skin color of these characters is diverse in the actual books, and even if it werent, it doesn't really matter. The world is written with incredible national diversity-- that's the important part-- and what better way to represent those divides than through color differences cross and within cultures. I mean, come on y'all! Emmonds field folks are literally described as brown haired, brown eyed, "darker" people. You'd think people who are upset would go back and look, oy vey! And even if they weren't-- head cannon can't be sacred, everyone's is different :p!
Kelsey Rae Hartzell - Thanks, Kelsey! And thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Breaking news! Charlie Sheen will be taking on the role of Uno!
Jared Poulter - I’m waiting for the casting that just breaks us like a Charlie Sheen. :)
What does "canon" mean? 😱
Official. As written in the book.
Thanks
Watched the other video about it and I haven't listened to the audiobooks yet, (Because I listen to books with my, not because I am too lazy to read.) But the video convinced me that the casting is fine. Not that I didn't think it was before because I was just unaware but everything in that makes sense.
However I will say that I understand the concern about it being a result of a political agenda is a valid concern. The sheer amount of stuff ruined by political agendas is upsetting. I mean the last thing you want is a beloved series getting an adaptation that is as bad as the new Ghostbusters or some other thing ruined by political agendas like a lot of what is going on in Marvel Comics for awhile now.
I agree that there is a valid concern about agenda, especially for those of us who love these books, and those who get caught up in politics. I don't know the people who are writing this adaptation or casting it. They very well may make politically motivated choices. Though, that wasn't the focus of the research. I was interested in what the facts were from the books, and what the in-world canon was. I appreciate you leaving a comment!
These guys did Graduate Thesis level research for this.
Has anyone ever done their graduate thesis on The Wheel of Time lol
there was this one guy who researched wheel of time food culture, but im not sure if it was graduate thesis
@@lakinther7183 , Ooo... do you have a link or remember the name? I love food culture.
@@lakinther7183 Someone sent a survey for their masters degree in literature to twitter. So I guess there's that
Hardcore fan freaks. Though, the thesis work continues. Haha. :)
A graduate level thesis would examine any potential evidence opposing their conclusion and disassemble it in order to strengthen their argument. There are plenty such examples in the first book alone. Of course they did not do this because the goal was not to do legit research but rather to demonstrate their predisposition. Funny how every youtube channel on the subject has the same opinion on this topic. Wow, groundbreaking thesis here. I sincerely hope the show is far more convincing in its interpretation of the overall source material.
starts at 3:54
3:54 intro at
5:40 daniel joins, why did they make the video
12:25 highlights in making the video
17:23 first time Cenn Buie is relevant
19:45 RJ just makes stuff up
22:22 stuff that didn't make it into the video
26:10 fan casting
32:25 call 1, Andrew: Age of characters and Lann casting in particular
36:13 call 2, Mitch: Does Rand look like Aiel, definition of liberal agenda.
40:10 Do you update the material or do you keep what was written set in stone
43:35, call3, Josh: After rereading 10+ description of characters not important.
48:40 call4, Jenn ..
I'll update this when I finish watching ^^
Max van Hooren - Thanks Max!
@the dusty wheel pin this please :)
Cenn M effin' Buie!!
Elayne and Rand and most of the Aiel did seem to be white but I don't think I was sure of anyone else and would it be a big deal if they weren't? Hell yes because I HAVE RED HAIR AND EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ME! 😅 A badass redhead? Cool! So sure, I'd be disappointed if he wasn't but I paid attention to Nyneave and Mat more when reading so I'd be okay if Rand was one of those many South Americans with RED HAIR.
Agelessness should be beauty not hotness
Ian Krohn - I do wonder just how good looking Aes Sedai will be in the TV Series. That would be funny if fans are asking for “uglier” Aes Sedai after the first Season. :)
My biggest confusion is why people want to give a race to fictional characters the author could make them purple with yellow polkadots and that would be, and people will be upset if they were blue with a yellow polkadot
Is Rosamund Pike aging in reverse?!? She looks nearly as young as she did back in Die Another Day. It's not even that weird, plastic-y look where some actresses get surgery to curb the aging process.
"Monday's complexion" lol
John Allen - That one made me laugh when I saw it in chat after I said it...I wish I could take credit for intending it. :)
I really couldn't care about the color of the skin of the characters. I do feel it was important to have most of the two rivers folk look the same, because it's made a big deal of that Rand is so different. But besides all that, that the skin color of the actors was chosen not because it made this storytelling, but because it fit their worldview of race politics. Like so many other issues with this show gender being foremost
Agelessness is achieved with just really good makeup artists and mild visual effects for certain shots. Not that hard.
And yet they didn't bother.
@@nathanmorgan3647 they couldn't even get the damn tinkers right
Mild visual effects in literally every shot involving an Aes Sedai, so about half the shots in the show. That would make it utterly impractical even if anyone could actually describe what "agelessness" actually looks like in real life. Seriously what would it look like? I've read the series about 5 times and I couldn't hazard a guess.
I am fine with the casting. I’m so excited for the show.
But please check out the Basque People if you want to read about weird DNA and genetics. They were hard to get to, so hard to conquer and they have a very high RH-
factor in their population compared to the rest of the world.
You are the only other person I’ve seen talk about the Basque. I always imagined the Two Rivers people were Basque like.
Earth in the future ...ofcorse its mixed race .....
It's earth in the past... of course it's not mixed race..... It's a WHEEL, remember?
@@nathanmorgan3647 No it is not. 🤭
@@tanonicoletti8856 It's literally called The WHEEL of Time. Christ.
@@lbds9555 no I mean it's not in the past, it is set in our future.
Sam Elliott could be a good Thom
Henry Cavill as Lan!!!
Sam Elliot has always been my Thom . But he’s kind of cowboy and I don’t think he could flourish his cloak very well.
I saw a picture of pierce brosnan with a mustache and graying hair once and thought, holy shit he could play thom!
I am sceptical about the casting because they dont realy match the general description given in the book and i feel like height or bulk is stuff that can be done with movie magic but skin colour is by large a thing that wont be changed by movie magic.
An example of this Egwene, in lord of chaos, she is mistaken for an aiel and she wonder why because she finds her eye colour and height an obvious difference. Clearly egwene is pretty similar to an aiel in look.
That being said, the colour of the cast is not what will make or break this show. Realy hope it will not crash and burn.
What evidence from the books suggests that Egwene looks like an Aiel? Because she spent time with them? Because ignorant ppl in Caihrien mistake her for one when she is wearing their cultural garb and covering most of her body?
@@samanthaa.6055 It is not just that one time that conparison have been made. Even Rand made that comparison once.
"egwene had been getting a good bit of sun, she realy could have passed for aiel exept for her dark eyes. A short aiel" - fires of heaven
When an author goes out of his way to describe the characters (including looks, and yes, coloring), it should be adhered to, whether or not it's "trendy". For me, the casting totally breaks with the books. If the show creators cannot stick to even the basics and have to go woke with the casting, I have no hope that they'll be faithful to anything in the books. It will not feel like the Wheel of Time, and it seems like the creators are already thumbing their noses at the dedicated fan base.
Just one more comments. Wheel of time fans are global. Can you please stop looking at everything through American lens? American racial/ gender dynamics does not represent the other 6.5 billion of us.
I enjoyed the show except for the fact that you keep using an America is the world frame for your reference
Can you cite specifics? Is there another WoT youtuber from another country they should collab with? They are 2 white Americans, so expecting them to be able to think like they're from somewhere else might not be fair.
@@samanthaa.6055 You are correct, they way they see things are not unexpected. I am just inviting people to see things differently.
Just an example, there is a tendency to equate black people and African Americans. African Americans are a small percentage of black people, so could it be a case that the rest of us black people see the world differently? I grew up in a black majority country so I've always been a man rather than a black man. I also grew up in a society where women outperform men, so we don't have the same gender issues like America.
So I'm just asking people to stop believe that the American view is representative of the world. After all, the show will be shown around the world so we do get to weigh in.
Like I said, your comment is pretty reasonable but diversity is often about inviting people to think differently.
Robin, thank you for saying that. I will do what I can; that's part of the reason I'm working to reach out to other content creators and the like. Also, it's why I try to take live calls; hearing from the international community really helps open my eyes, and it's just extremely fun to hear other takes on all of these topics. If you have other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
@@TheDustyWheel Thanks. Keep up the good work. It's just gratifying to interact with fellow WOT geeks 😁
@@robinirie98 It's an American novel...
Yeah, some people who live further north are whiter and some people who live further south are darker but I always thought WOT takes place in the future when people have already moved around and then the Breaking happened and they settled down where they were and adopted the cultures where they ended up. So how do I know what color they are? Jordan mostly talks about hair color, right? We are all on a continuum aren't we? Jordan was TRYING to shake things up by making Dessert people ginger and slavery owners on the dark side. So if the show shakes it up again, well that's the point right? a world where women have the most power? C'mon. Jordan would love this. I believe that. Of course you picture people certain ways whether or not Jordan described them in detail or not and the show will shake this up. Why would people be OFFENDED? I get that they think they OWN this world. But hey, we don't own WOT.
If they hired the best actors, that's all that matters.
Except when Physical appearances define the character....
but why change race.
@@pratikmakwana6188 Because racist white liberals think that colored people are too shallow to watch a show if white people are in it.
Daniel Henney is 40
Funny he is the only half-asian actor in the whole cast. They got every other character as black though huh? LOL
Reviewing the casting, and the past work of these actors, I'm expecting this opportunity to be squandered by current year woke hollywood- much like new Star Trek, new Star Wars, the current comic industry.. Etc. I hope I'm wrong, but I expect this to land more closely to Game of Thrones season 8 than season 1.
That last call from Mary is the perfect example of current year woke politics influencing/ruining content.
I think one of the worst jobs going today is casting a show. Due to the disgusting, tribal politics of the modern day.
If you cast a show faithfully, you are a racist. If you cast a show unfaithfully then you are incert childish name.
So they can't win.
Good point.
@Robertson Thirdly what part of that is unclear?
One day James Bond will be a black woman. It would be faithful
This topic seems a little bit like low hanging fruit.people have their head canon..cant we just discuss lava portals instead?
Hah. Lava portals sound interesting. I'm in.
@@TheDustyWheel cool :) so if androl (apologies for the following spellings,I've only the audiobooks as reference) was the best of the black tower at portals and logain knew how to make death gates why didnt he utilise androl as a one man lava death portal weapon of destruction?also..if one channeler opened up a gate inside of a volcano and another channeler opened up another portal facing it,open to the bottom of the ocean,what would happen?would the pressure of the ocean douse the volcano?would the resulting rock shut the gate like a cork?would both channelers survive..these are the questions that keep me up at night
kevin hopkins - Portals...make everything way too much fun. Lol. I love this idea. Jordan and his characters never took it nearly far enough.
These days it's either adopt the oh-so inclusive casting, even if it's ridiculous and/or breaks the source material, or don't make the show.
It's not the mixed race village of Emond's Field that will break the Wheel (of Time). Like with the tragic Witcher series, the undoing of this TV series will be the lack of soul. Book adaptations in this era have no soul. Perhaps too much time is spent finding the right shade of a given actor's/actress' skin, and too little writing a good story.
The book series already has many serious flaws so perhaps an Amazon series can help fix or minimize some of those. From the initial casting I've seen, it appears another round of identity politics is in play. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing unless you consider just how Amazon will be forced to cast Tuon as white since the very idea of a black slave master can't be allowed. (eye roll)
This whole post is sarcastic right?
The Fires of Heaven; Hardcover; page 65.
~~
The other woman was taller, yet still short of his shoulders, and young, not ageless.
Egwene, whom he had grown up with. Now except for her dark eyes, she could almost
have passed for an Aiel woman, and not only from her tanned face and hands..
~~
This in a way proves she is of a paler complexion, and in a way also proves that Nynaeve is aswell..(cough:cough) Perrin.
~~
also, ive read the graphic novels depicted RJs approved vision of a trolloc for the first time, why would they get a trolloc right and get the two rivers folk wrong?
~~
I dont really care who they have play the character, so long as they do them justice but i would so love to prove that its not holding to RJs original vision and it is in fact amazon just being amazon.
Jered C. - Hey Jered, thanks for your comments! FWIW, from my research in Jordan’s Notes, what we learn about Midlanders and their associated nations and villages (which includes Emond’s Field) confirms what is described in Wheel of Time Role Playing Game Guide, something he also took part in creating while he was alive, “Midlanders are of average height and weight, though extreme variations are not uncommon. Dark hair and eyes are the norm, though fair complexions and hair are also seen.” Fair to darker complexion is the range of Midlanders, with those of Tear being the darkest complexion of the Midlands from what I’ve studied. Nothing about the skin color of any one I’ve seen cast so far would not fit within the description of Midlanders. In fact, someone from Cairhien should look different, canonically, from those from the Two Rivers, which is exactly what we see. Though, I expect attribute differences on a character by character basis; as Jordan said, the only person that could have ever drawn what each character looked like exactly was him, and he claimed he couldn’t draw.
If you are curious what constitutes Midlanders, they are described as coming “from the kingdoms, cities, and towns at the heart of the Westlands: Andor, Murandy, Far Madding, Ghealdan, and the scattered villages along the fringes of the Caralain Grass and the River Manetherendrelle and it’s tributaries. This includes the Two Rivers, Emond’s Field, and Baerlon. Characters from Amadicia and the northern backcountry of Altara, Illian, and Tear could also claim the Midlander background.”
@@TheDustyWheel In the RPG, the Midlanders literally include a huge geographical area and multiple sprawling nations though. That is not evidence for a NYC Airport during holiday season ethnic diversity for the Two Rivers!!!
Look up. Prince hats ..,. For ideas for Matrim’s hat. Like Prince the singer who passed away. Please God someone yell this at the costume people.
I’m done.
The FIRST THREE CHAPTERS mentions MULTIPLE TIMES that Rand’s only difference’s that made him stand out AND feel different than Two Rivers Folk was that he was 1)Tall 2) reddish hair 3) eye color.
So let’s use logic. If those features make him STAND OUT. Then.... come on! I know you can do it!
You guessed it! Two Rivers Folk must all be really similar! Why else would such otherwise bland physical features make someone stand out?
Honestly the mental gymnastics people will perform to imply a woke multicultural society in a fantasy series amazes me!
If you haven’t read the books, just read the first 3 chapters and see what I mean.
He’s also using the fact that a Domani woman was described as ‘fair skinned’ once in the book. Welll turns out the only reason we find out she is Domani is the next sentence describing how the dark friend only recognized where she was from by her attire and her jewelry...sooo following logic this means the natural inference is you CANNOT tell she was Domani by her skin color because she did not possess the TYPICAL (109 mentions of coppery) skin color which is mentioned along with every other Domani.
This is called “The exception is the rule” which is such a huge logical fallacy that it’s actually comical they can say it with straight faces. Occam’s razor says the easiest explanation is probably the right one! You shouldn’t have to use exceptions like Rand’s mother becoming Wedded to the Spear in Aiel society to then extrapolate “Aiel must be multicultural!” Youre doing the same thing with every other society in this universe. It really would only make sense in larger cities of Andor, Cairhien and Illian where there would actually be a little multiracial populace, that makes sense at least. Not in cities that “haven’t seen an Andoran tax collector in generations” -Queen Morgaise, a place where your hair color makes you stand out and feel estranged in your hometown but apparently not your skin color (lol).
Another example book The Shadow Rising, Perrin’s girlfriend Falcon is recognized ON SIGHT as Saldean by Tam and multiple others in different company. How are they able to do that when she hadn’t spoken yet and was wearing a green andoran dress with velvet gloves.(chapter 29)
Yet a town where “only a few peddlers from Beahrlon a year come a year to buy tobac and wool” is somehow more ethnically diverse even though the opposite is more likely.
you’re performing giant leaps over obvious inferences and very specifically spelled out passages in the books to excuse bad casting choices.
It's not a pure fantasy series though is it, its also futuristic science fiction. The cultures described are the descendents of a global, post scarcity society where teleportation across the globe was a normal way of transportation. It would be absurd if you didn't have multiple ethnicities represented in the story.
@@davidjones272 if you just casted the show correctly. You’d have the most diverse cast of any show currently on TV. But they just couldn’t wait so they made a perfect proportion of every race in every town and every scene. It’s honestly distracting, not alone how dumb the One power looks, or the story changes and women having the ability to be the Dragon, implying saidin and saidar are not present.
None of my friends or I have even watched the 4th episode yet because it’s so painful to watch.
Sorry, you can't change the words in the books, I'm sure you'd like to, but you can't. Jordan didn't write the Two Rivers as a diversity wonderland, it just didn't happen.
1984 concept - Doublethink is a process of indoctrination whereby the subject is expected to accept as true that which is clearly false, or to simultaneously accept two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in contravention to one's own memories or sense of reality
Hieroglyph777 how can you see all of the plentiful evidence to the contrary presented in the video and still say this
@@dsaillant811 How can you see Jordan's own casting picks, his descriptive writing, his hard coloring in of characters where he saw them as such and then think that he had in any way, shape or form, thought that the Two Rivers was as diverse as NYC ?
Because the chosen "evidence to the contrary" was selectively interpreted while ignoring a lot of potentially more concrete evidence. Just a selection from the first book:
Rand was aware of others moving, Mat and Perrin dashing away at the edge of his vision, Loial’s long legs carrying him into the trees, but all he could really see was Egwene. She stood there rigid, face pale and eyes closed. - EoTW
He did not want to meet her eyes, but he could not stop looking at her. She wore red wildroses twined in her hair, flowing about her shoulders. She held her cloak close, dark blue and embroidered along the edge with a thin line of white flowers in the Shienaran fashion, and the blossoms made a line straight up to her face. They were no paler than her cheeks; her eyes seemed so large and dark. - EoTW
Egwene stood there, and Nynaeve, pale and frightened, with flowers in their hair. - EoTW
Nynaeve’s face was a white mask of determination - EoTW
White folk need to learn to talk about race in an informed, compassionate way, raising up the voices of marginalized people, and listening when it's time to sit back, then stepping forward and doing the work of educating other white folk. I think these two videos are great examples of white folk talking about race in a good way.
"white folk"/, bigot much?
The tv show will go down as one of the worst implementation of a story to the screen.
Agreed, unfortunately...
Agreed. But the pied piper keeps playing, dancing the lemmings over the cliff.
Yep, these videos are pure cope.
Don’t like the actors they cast for egwene and Perrin, but they are annoying characters in the books anyways so whatever.