DCS: Dogfighting in the F-4E (vs MiG-17F) PvP
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- čas přidán 29. 05. 2024
- Quick video on how to dogfight in the F-4E. Though not the best turner with high speed bleed, and poor low speed maneuverablity below 350 kts, the F-4E is a formidable plane to face when flown properly.
Keep it fast, keep it vertical and enjoy.
Big thanks to Talo and Titus for helping out with the video! - Hry
You are doing it right. The best book written on fighting in the F-4 is "Scream of Eagles". From the book; enter the fight with no less than 550 kts. When your speed bleeds to 350 kts, unload and extend 2-3 miles to regain your energy, then pitch back into the fight at no less than 550 kts. Plenty of F-4 pilot accounts of chasing Vietnamese MIG-17s and 21s on the deck at M1.2+.
When the Phantom turns it creates 15X the drag of the F-16. The F-4's wing is a "delta". Scream of Eagles talks about 2 F-4s pressing a MIG flying/using "the egg", with one attacker always pressing the MIG while the other zooms to reposition - a classic Boom n Zoom tactic. I see the F-4 as a FW-190 using slashing attacks, Boom n Zoom, and only turning horizontally when absolutely needed. Scream of Eagles also documents the formation of TOP GUN. When fighting the MIG-17 at TOP GUN, they learned the 17 flies perfectly well at 100 knots.
Performing a break turn on a MIG-17? Very funny. Unload and extend. 550 kts allows you to go vertical and/or extend. My father flew the F-4 from 1975-77. He said the faster you go, the better it gets meaning, keep your speed up. Turbojets LIKE air. The turbojet is faster from 400-800 knots than the turbofan. He and the boys called the F-4, "The Pig". After flying the F-104 and the F-5, the Phantom is not nearly as maneuverable and not as kinematic-ly as potent as the F-104 hence, The Pig. They also called it "Double Ugly".
Your F-104 content was excellent and now the F-4. Really looking forward to the F-4 content. Right out of the box you are keeping your speed up and mostly using the vertical. From this initial video, I have the sneaking suspicion you will be the 1st to master the F-4. The MIG-17 is NO JOKE. Also, you mentioned "slats" and keeping them in. Superby energy management GVad. Phantastic Phantom Phlying PhGVad. Phank Phou Phery Phuch.
Man, I owe you like 4 beers now 🤣. Thank you 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
@@FSX404 You betcha. When you begin reading SCREAM OF EAGLES, tell the world you will be "persona non grata" from 5 pm Friday to 7 am Monday. You will devour the knowledge in this book with no need for toothpicks or tape to keep your eyes open, and will forget to eat, drink, sleep and breathe. If the FM for the F-4 and 17 are accurate - I believe they are - then you will be able to apply everything in the book with incredible accuracy and TRULY fly and fight in the F-4 EXACTLY like our heroes did in Vietnam. Man, what a treat!
After you read the book and re-watch this video, you will see you were a little behind the power/speed/energy curve by 50-100kts. Adding just a touch of energy to all maneuvers will result in much better results, not allowing the 17 to get as close as he did. But one thing GVad, do not tell Talo (17 pilot?) you are reading SCREAM OF EAGLEs, as he will compensate with another 30-50kts per maneuver to attempt to match you in the F-4. The book also reveals ALL THE MIG-17's WEAKNESSES (hint: loss of controls at "higher speeds). At 500 kts the 17 is "unable to turn/maneuver and at 500kts, the F-4 is just starting to "get good". F-4's in Vietnam easily saw 800+kts at treetop level. Even an F-16 cannot run away from a Phantom and at 1970-80's Red Flag, Eagles couldn't catch the Phantom on the deck. This is going to be EPIC.
Again, due to your experience, patience, and maturity as an aviator, you will "keep your speed up" and fly the F-4 to its advantages, not bleeding/dumping all your energy for the quick kill, resulting in awesome dogfights and sheer dominance over the MIG-17. Christmas has come early. Cheers!
Really looking forward to both flying and fighting the Fresco!
Careful what you wish for, its a dream and nightmare rolled into 1 😬
You should run a clinic for all those new DCS F-4 drivers who are still trying to fly their F-4s like they are flying Vipers, Eagles and Tomcats! Well done sir. Thanks for the realistic content and explanations.
Oh man. I remember playing the F-4 back in the day in Wings Over Vietnam. It was really tough and took me a lot of time to learn to fly it properly and Mig-17s were my biggest nightmare.
I'm looking forward to see how it compares.
Well, the 17 is accurate FM, its great but it also has accurate drags so you cant just pull it like in some other DCS planes. It will also depart easy at the edges, so you have to fly it exact. Talo makes it look easy but that is hundreds of hours of testing and flying. Even Col Tomb (whoever that experienced pilot was with mutiple kills) departed in his battle with Duke Cunningham.
@@FSX404 May i ask, how did you get hands on this Mig-17? Did the developers provide it to you as a youtuber for alpha testing?
@@Youda00008 Talo and I got together and created Red Star by bringing in devs and artists. So Im finally putting my "knowledge" where my mouth is lol. But I love DCS in general and am happy when theres any great plane out there, and I will say it no matter who develops it.
@@FSX404 😲 That's amazing. I wish you the best luck with that. Will definitely buy.
Fantastic stuff! The MiG-17 will be a Day One purchase for me. Really enjoyed seeing a Vietnam era matchup with the correct weapons. Lazier creators would’ve put AIM-9M’s on. :(
Only thing I think it's missing sadly is the AIM-9E. Some early, janky but upgraded winders would be damn fun.
J could be a possible missile, but its a little too good, the aquiring cone is a bit too wide, and it leads when flying. These missiles should be chasing the heat source, not predicting where it will be. I hope they dumb down the AiM9J so we can use it correctly.
@@FSX404 Just did a bit of digging, AIM-9J should be leading targets, especially considering that as early as AIM-9E uncaging was a feature of the missile. With Navy sidewinders that appeared with AIM-9D. Though as previously mentioned, AIM-9E would be a great addition.
the big problem is the aquiring cone, in that era you couldn't get a kill if the missile was lunched in this cone, normally is 40 degrees cone, this mean max 20/30 degrees angle off and of course depending the G-force that the bandit is pulling in that moment, a plane pulling 5 Gs and more than 20 degrees of angle off, that missile is a waste. in reality of course. in Flaklands war were more than 20 head to head merged and it wasn't a single kill from head to head with a Aim9L, always the manufacture will say that is better than it really is. in my opinion in DCS you need to limit the missile kills relative the aquiring cone, this will be awesome and enjoyable
Nice vid, really looking forward to the MiG-17 and this iconic matchup.
Great video! I can’t wait to get the Fresco eventually to challenge the F-4’s.
Great video as always.That MiG-17 is really dangerous, it can get you in the two circle and the one circle. Nice options to have.
Now we need video from opposite side
Great video, very helpful overlaying the tacview.
Beautiful, great work 🫡
This is awesome! We also need the Kfir now
Forget flashy trailers, this is how you get me hyped for a module release!
Also my Mig19 appreciates F4 pilots being taught to use the vertical hehe.
This is a realistic dogfight, its what they looked like in Vietnam. I mean this is epic and not because I flew it, because even I say wow when I see it and cant believe it. Trailers are good, but we dont fly trailers, this is what a DCS pilot sees, so I always think its better to show what it can do rather than what it looks like from cool angles during sunrise or sunset 🤷♂️
Yeah i live the mig-19 when they look back and see me right behind them
@@treypeters1087 well, MiG19 is a bit OP in DCS, 19 shpuld end up about 1500 feet below F-4, as of now they are about even, 500 F-4 underpowered, and 1000 for 19 OP.
@@FSX404Where do you get all this data?
@@Youda00008 fortunate to have some contacts who used to fly for Israeli IAF 40+ yrs ago. IAF studied all potential opponent planes in depth, and even had different tactics than other nations, remember they flew delta Mirages and Kfirs against 17s, 19s and 21s. These guys could tell you 17 would reach "this" altitude from 15k at 400 kts, 19 "this," 21 "this" in their sleep 40 yrs later. I wouldnt say all, but a lot of my flying is influenced by IAF 1960s tactics.
You guys know you already have my money in the bank for the 17 right? :))
Will you release this year?
Nice video of a nice fight. The graph at the bottom right is very, very useful to understand what is going on, even or especially for an old fart like me. At one point I was getting good on WW2 fighters for dogfights, but I never really did it in the F-18 very much. A sled like the F-4 is another type of beast, but it looks like all the videos I've seen of it is people leaning on the burner a lot. My main problem is figuring the power setting on the engines. In percent RPM. In other words the RPM to power curve. This gives me trouble landing, to control sink rate. It's not like the F404 engine for sure. It's just a big ol' nasty dirty turbojet that takes a while to spool. There is probably a curve for that too somewhere.
I recommend getting the F-4 up to 10k and putting yourself into a slow flight regime. Get slow enough to hear the AoA tone, drop flaps and gear, and cruise around like that for a while. Get a feel for the speed brake too. With all the drag on the airframe, you're behind the power curve and you'll need a lot of power to stay level. Also listen carefully to the engine. It has very distinct sounds at different RPMs. My current (and unvetted) rule of thumb is to stay above 80% RPM. If you feel the need to drop below 80% RPM, you've scuffed your approach. Go around.
@@wmouse Good advice. This is a thing to do with all aircraft to get a feel of slow speed. I figured it out now. This engine has to be run above 85%. Get on speed AOA on downwind, trim and control the rate of descent with the throttle. That is approach 101, but you have to be agressive on the throttles. The difficult things is judging descent rate (the vertical speed indicator on this thing sucks ) and nothing beats keeping your head outside the cockpit. If your descent rate gets too high (higher than 2000 fpm) you can get in trouble. Long finals for now.
Excellent video!
Excellent, sir!
Thank you, would you believe this was our first engagement (Talo and I), I practiced flying the F-4 for a day, and Talo never flew against the F-4. We just looked at the flight and said, this one is good, no need for others.
Fight was like two fighters gaging each other, dipping our toes in a bit. It was awesome and we knew it as soon as we disengaged.
One of the hardest things I've found about fast, vertical BFM is that when I do manage to get my nose on the bandit for a shot, the closure is too fast to make the shot, and one of us eventually runs out of gas. But that's against AI that fly with perfect energy states.
AI are OP and dont make mistakes so its hard to do vertical BFM, pilots are human overpull and lose energy, with F-4 ypu have to be patient and force it. MiG19 AI is great to practice against and get good for PvP
In DCS if you select the hardest AI difficulty, it buffs their EM performance to unrealistic levels, so that might be an issue as well.
@@Youda00008 The AI defies the laws of physics. I saw a 5 G pull and ***negative*** AoA in TacView from an AI F-5.
very nice
Awesome video, curious about FFB implementation into the MiG-17F - do you guys have access to the VPForce Rhino??
Hey Gvad, a quick question in regards to the snapshots. With the reticle dancing about everywhere, what references do you use to guesstimate where the rounds are going? In other aircraft (i.e. F18) we get a little + to give us an indication of the rough position. In the Mig the rounds have nice particle and smoke effects making it much easier. In the F4, I have found the tracers to be quite dull, (especially in VR). I have been successful shooting down Migs on multiple occasions, but I'll be honest I was going purely of feel and luck and those kills felt only sort-of earned. Would love something more scientific and less artsy
Does the reticle in CAGE mode perhaps help?
Yes ypu can cage it, it has cage mode, AA mode, bombing mode, Im sure theres videos that explain the modes. Snapshots its probably better to cage, I wasnt thinking while flying tho I should have. F-4 should have a gun radar perhaps, but I dont know if its auto or you have to engage it (I was more focused on flying rather than learning the systems, my shortcoming unfortunately).
But like any plane, with practice you get good at it, some guys are just awesome and will make those shots, myself Im not one of those 🤷♂️, I suck at shooting unfortunatelly.
Next video perspective from MiG-17 cockpit pls? 🥺
I've been waiting for years to see that one!
Imagine dogfighting 17s without guns... except for the occasional gunpod. Especially w/9bs
11:02 Super cool. I would love to see Talo in a Fishbed. I like the 9L and the 60/60M are good missiles also. Not so easy to extend against an opponent with good missiles, but I'm sure you will figure something out.
You cant catch him in a 21, its like "dude, Im not coming to 36,000 feet" 🖐🤣
Will your Mig-17 have fox 2 capabilities? If yes wich variant?
Good fight
Af far as I understood 17F wont have AA missiles
Unfortunatelly no AA missiles. Soviets did have a kit for upgrading the 17F to add AA missiles, but no country ever bought an upgrade kit other than rumors about Vietnam. We did our darnest best to find info on it, anything, and possibly add it in one form or another, but we found nothing official 🤷♂️.
But in reality it would be like a 19 missile, R3 is really useless on it in a dogfight.
@@FSX404 17PFU would be nice. beam riders and still had guns. *slips a fiver
@@TheGranicd its a plane against bombers, carrying those bulky K-5 missiles. I saw some East German training videos on them and basically they snuck in behind a bomber by GCI and shot it down, guns or missiles.
@@FSX404 it would be great to have them because enigma is a different experience without any missiles
Any idea what the str is of the mig 17?
16.2 deg/sec at SL and combat weight of 4550 kg at 380 kts/700 kph, arpund 14 deg/sec at 15k, and around 6 deg/sec at 30k
@@FSX404 wow that’s much worse than I was imagining actually. Interesting considering the mig 15 and Sabre are both higher
@@kynanledee5089 I wouldnt rely on DCS F-86 and MiG15, they are not accurate. Shut the engine off on the 15 at 10k and glide, it takes 6 min to glide to the ground, it has almost no drag. F-86 is slightly more accurate. Even the F-16 and M2000 only get around 17 deg/sec.
@@FSX404 def think the 86 and mig-15 are a bit messed up but I’ve def seen about 20 from the m2k and about 18 from the viper
@@kynanledee5089 tacview is not accurate above 13 and below 10, you have to calculate it from true speed (or mach) and Gs pulled. Machbis also not accurate above 10k on tacview sobuse true speed. I pulled 17.1 on the F-16 and 17 on M2000 calculated. 17 will also show 18.5 on tacview. Turn rate is just acceleratin vs speed. So 17 is relative to F16 and M2000.
This isbth calculator, you can try it on your own, make sure its level flight
www.calculatoratoz.com/en/turn-rate-calculator/Calc-8559
i believe the US had much more advanced Aim-9s during the mid/late Vietnam war; aim-9E and Aim-9J. I dont think you have to use the aim-9Bs unless your doing a 1965/66 scenario
Exactly, but the Aim9B in DCS behave as Aim9J , you could lunch in a 40/60 degrees cone from the horizontal axis of the Tail, an average of 30 degrees of angle off. the Aim9J is outperform in DCS.
this plane is really terrible for dogfight
It's about as terrible as the P-51 is vs a A6M... fight with the plane's strengths and the F-4 has many over the MiGs.
Maximum turn rate is overrated :P